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No sports betting, except in Las Vegas. Have the casino businesses scrutinized by commissions, boards, and the police. Establish all kinds of regulations and rules for casino patrons. Let the casinos change the rules on Blackjack, at whim. Then, TELL US THAT DAY TRADING IS AN "INVESTMENT" "BUSINESS"!! SHEER INSANITY! (You are not expected to understand this, I am venting.)
RF,
This is a good place to vent. Did you try it or did you get clobbered or both? People in the investment community might say that day traders provide liquidity.
Tom Haley
How many investment schemes are going to begin by telling you that you are probably going to lose significant capital before you start profiting??? Thats what I saw in a day trading bit of literature! The thing is that if this were true, then dont you think the day traders would be held back from making trades until they proved they could make money? Of course not, they are a broker and information service godsend and day trading is not just for liquidity purposes, its industry-wide profits.
It's too bad that the daytrader who just recently killed 12 people(including his wife and two kids) in Atlanta because of day trading losses didn't know about this forum. Lives may have been saved had he vented out his anger here instead of shooting all those innocent people. I feel very sad for those who love them. Anyone in the risk taking profession (poker player, pro gambler, speculator, investor,etc.) must take responsibility for his actions and results instead of blaming dealers, floormen, the government, brokers, God, "them", etc.
"Gambling", "day trading", or whatever, had nothing to do with those murders. The perpetrator was a sociopathic killer, who killed his own mother and wife five years ago.
It seems to me that anyone who can be a successful day trader could make much more money position trading, but I am thankful for day traders because they have made it much more difficult for market makers to screw option traders
Just curious:
I may have read this in a 2+2 book, but it also is common sense:
If you are investing/gambling, and you are doing so to profit (not for fun), you should have some specific idea that you can be very sure about as to the origin of your "edge". If you play blackjack, it's pretty easy with books or simulations to get an idea of this, if you play poker, you can study, have experience, and see that others in your game are making fundamental mistakes, or are easy to read, are drunk, etc...
Where does the edge come from for the day traders? It seems some of them are successful, but this is expected as there is a (likely) normal distribution of their results (even though an individual's results are not necessarily normal). Is it a superior knowledge of the "game" (as a poker player or sports bettor may have)? But if this is so, aren't the market prices determined by true expert fund managers and big players? How is the lowly day trader to assume his knowledge is superior to those with so many more resources at their disposal?
One hears of day traders making big $ in the stock market, but aren't lots of people? What happens when the markets stop soaring - will this be the big rake increase, or the hitting soft 17, that dries up the "game".
Any insight appreciated.
From what I gather, day traders are trying to play on the market's psychology on the whole. Markets tend to react certain ways for certain stocks. The theory does work in a way because information is controlled in such a way that reaction can be somewhat predictable. The problem seems that people don't seem to limit themselves to this. It would kinda be like poker in that you know if you just wait for good starters and play in soft games you will win some money, but you want to win more so you try to add profit with weaker hands until you eventually give all of it back and then some. My guess is that most of the really wealthy people in day trading didnt get it from the trading, but from selling services and books...
Nah Wild Bill,
They get it by being able to afford seats on the exchange and playing against the average investor. :-)
They're names? Meryll Lynch, Goldman Sachs, Smith Barney...he he!
It's called the bid/ask spread.
:-)
Oh yes, and there is money is selling picks and shovels to prospectors too....
;-)
Dan,
I've done a little investigating on Day Trading. It used to be something that only floor traders could really do profitably...the shortest term version of it being called "scalping" (moving large blocks of stock for a tick or two profit and getting out...sometimes in seconds).
The edge of the floor trader came two ways (at least). Low cost of execution...like a dollar a trade, regardless of size, and time advantage (speed of execution and speed of seeing what all the other traders are doing vis a vis the information flow).
When computer trading became available some put out the idea that this lessened the edge the floor folks had. And assuming you use Instinet or Island (not E-TRADE for example)...it does to some extent. But authors that speak truthfully will tell you the floor still has the edge and thus reccomend momentum trading and will state that scalping from your living room may not be possible.
There are those who claim there are ways to catch up to the floor...but I'm not sure yet. Over in Germany a purely computer run floor with no live specialists is being tried out. If that were to catch on you might then have a level playing field. Except that the Wall Street houses would have the money for things like better research and be able to move more stock...affect the market thier way etc. Which is no different than specialists (NYSE) or Market Makers (NASDAQ) do now.
What many don't realize is that the major houses make thier profits by trading against thier own customers! So in a sense day trading neophytes represent "liquidity" (or sucker money) to trade against.
It is possible to do it...but I speculate it isn't easy!
The example that burns me up is Barbara Striesand. Sure she turned 1 million into 1.8 million. But don't you think if you were a media figure and walked into Instinet and said I have a million to trade with...they'd make every effort to show you the ropes?
Try that with no celebrity status and an average opening account. Hmmm, can you say Sucker Money? Many authors of the subject say..."Oh, you'll probably lose xx dollars before you get the hang of it". Sound like poker? Some of the authors have schools...Well if they've figured it out, should they be keeping me from loosing xx?
Make no bones about it, the Elite MBA's of the world are playing poker in the trading pits with the world economy.
Whether that's right or wrong is your judgement call. But it affects us all.
Personally I think it's creating problems. Things that are good for the bottom line are not neccesarily good for people or the planet.
Now let's talk about the Fed trying to keep the economy from overheating. Well, What's that...oh when to many people have work and thus might be able to demand more money from the rich....So the Fed raises interest rates to slow the whole thing down. Hmmm, so that means that a "good econony" is based on cheap labor, right? Good for who? But of course...the players with the big bank rolls who can influence politics and monetary policy.
:-)
P.S. if you were an elite and you were looking down over it all you might see what? Well a middle class that, if it gets richer might be a problem...and an under class that might revolt if it gets too poor. So what to do? Tax the middle and give it to the poor! The middles can't jump the fence, the lowers don't quite want to revolt. Imagine that! Now consider who gets elected, and how and ask yourself about tax policy. :-)
Or as it was summarized in a now classic movie..."You're nothing but a clerk, sent by shop keepers to collect the bill". (I.E. the money owns the gov't the gov't controls the military, the soldier sent to knock off Kurtz was little more than a drone for the big money...and Kurtz was being a bad little boy because he knew too much and personally revolted.)
Even so. America is still #1...and were it not for the nature of man and the world (I.E. if we drop the guard they'll certainly come over here and take over) I'd have a hard time condoning it. However, we currently have little choice but to hope that slowly people will see to a better way. But as it stands, the entrenched interests run the show.
Well enough for now. USA #1 but the world could use a new way of being altogether. Just can't figure out what it would be.
Dan Z.,
You write:
>>If you are investing/gambling, and you are doing so to profit (not for fun), you should have some specific idea that you can be very sure about as to the origin of your "edge". <<
I agree with you. I am not sure but I would don't believe that a lot of traders can assess their odds of success very accurately. "Scalping" and/or arbitrage involves no risk to minimal risk strategies but I believe this is not what you are alluding to.
Tom Haley
Tom,
I have to agree with you. With all the factors that affect the trading pits' reactions to event what outsider can accurately assess the odds of say...an asian economic crisis on day x?
At least a card deck has a finite sample space.
This is not to say Wall Street doesn't have effective models, but what individual in his living room does?
In any event, more than one author of electronic day trading books states that the market is a large poker game (in those words!).
However, day trading has always existed in the trading pits before electronic day trading and lower execution costs brought it to the attention of the media and general public.
As a reference, take a look at either "The Compleat Day Trader, (Jake Bernstien - who despite his info-mercials is widely respected in the industry) or "The Futures Game, Who Wins, Who Loses, and Why" (Tewels and Jones). Both of these discuss day trading long before it became popular. It just used to be that execution speed and cost where prohibitive for off floor traders to try it.
And since the pits are run by professional traders I have to believe the neophyte is likely to get creamed learning the ropes.
Several top name day trading authors who trade exclusively on-line were actually institutional traders, on-floor, before they were successful with on-line day trading and then writing books about it.
I've done extensive reading on the topic and various forms of analysis etc. and it seems to me it is not a simple nor easy way to profit. It may actually take years to accumulate enough knowledge to know what's going on.
This is not to say some empirical, back tested method, as suggested by tools such as Omega's TradeStation can't work, however knowing why they work of if a back tested, curve fitted algorithm should work in the future is a tricky business, and thus you are back to lots of study.
I speculate that as tough as poker is, day trading from off floor for the average individual is likely to prove even tougher.
Lind-Waldock (Largest Commdities Brokerage) gave some information to the authors of a book I believe was called, "Getting Started in Futures" that indicated 2/3 of the small futures investors lost thier shirts to large investors and professional hedgers.
But then realize, stock was invented to capitalize companies, not make investors rich, and futures contracts were invented to allow commodities producers to hedge against market risk, not to make speculators rich. Thus it would appear that both instruments serve thier designed purposes well, which is essentially to pass risk off to "investors" and "speculators".
Who as you state and I suspect, do not always have a good way to place a numerical estimate of risk, nor a way to calulate EV going for them.
And yet we run our corps. as though the share price is actually something to manage around!
Strikes me as a little...well...nuts.
(Of course the reason that happens is because companies retain stock and executives are given bonuses for stock performance...instead of say...revenue and net profits in the long run.)
:-)
No, those fun arbitrage problems from my finance and securities classes are not what I am taking about -
I don't think these day traders are running excel spreadsheets looking for arbitrage opportunities - and at the % of transaction costs and interest rates they can get, they would likely never see them - not to mention the speed of the big players looking for them would mean that the arbitrage would be gone before the lowly day trader could point and click...
Thanks for the response.
I have to agree. I point blank asked one of these gurus (online) if there was a way to program abitrage searches and act on them...interesting I never got a reply to that question.
But to elaborate a little, yes the big players have that locked up. That is what the "Fair Value" number is about. When the spread between futures and the underlying basket of stocks is "out of line" (profitable) the large arbitragers will sell the future and buy the underlying or visca versa, depending on which way it is "out".
I believe this is where "program trading" comes in (not computer program per se)...that's when a large player starts moving large number of stock across multiple issues (I thing the technical definition is across 15 or more distinct stocks and over some dollar figure).
Somehow I don't see a level playing field.
:-)
I believe that intraday price movements are totally random walk. Therefore, it's impossible for you to make money day trading if you're betting on market direction. You can only make money day trading if you're some kind of scalper or arbitrageur, trading activities that require you to be on the floor (not in front of your home computer paying big commissions that can offset the price discrepancies that you're trying to exploit doing arbitrage and scalping). Position trading is better since a lot of people have been successful doing it. But poker is the best. I believe that an expert poker player with a 50000 bankroll can easily outperform an expert trader with a 400000 bankroll.
Interesting hypothesis (that ROI on poker exceeds day trading).
I'll have to think about it.
In a sense the floor is the poker table. But I'd say the market is more like no-limit as the big players can move as much money as they have available.
I do think the easy availability of Level II etc. has made it easier to do it from home...but I don't think there can be any doubt that the floor is where the rubber meets the road.
Problem is an exchange seat can be very expensive. Last I knew the mid-am commodities exchange was as low as 10,000 but stock exchanges were going for 250K to over a million with private individuals sometimes willing thier seat to an inheritor. Clearly a rich man's game. So what else is new?
An expert poker player with a 50k bankroll will have to play against other expert poker players in order to significantly increase his stake.
An expert stock trader with a 400k bank doesn't necessairly have to play against other experts. (Although they will be there competing.) The stock game is so big and there are so many small players that weakenesses can be exploited just as in poker.
The stock market is definitely NOT random walk.
Technical analysis is the most profitable route to take.
But still, like anything else, it is a game that must be learned and tuition is certainly not free.
I agree that the stock market is not a random walk... in the intermediate term and in the long term. But it probably is random walk in the very short run, especially if the trends that you're betting on are the ones that last a few minutes which is exactly what daytraders do. Regarding ROI: An expert level fulltime professional poker player with a 50K bankroll can easily play 60-120. If he plays 40 hours per week for 50 weeks every year and is able to make 1 small bet an hour, he will have an income of 120,000 per year. To make that much off a 400K bankroll, an expert trader must produce a return of 30% a year...consistently! To my knowledge, only the super legendary traders (Soros, Steindhardt, Robertson, Kovner, Trout) can approach this kind of return consistently. The mere experts make much less. Remember, we comparing an expert poker player and an expert trader here.
Does anyone out there have any old copies of the POKER PLAYER newspaper that they want to get rid of?
I posted an honest question for you about 7-card stud. You have refused to answer my post. You should grow up and be a man for once in your life. To hell with you. 2+2 is a forum for everyone and that includes the right to post opinions. If you don't like it well then change the rules so that opinions are not allowed. You have really dissapointed me by your actions. They are the actions of a coward. For a winning player such as yourself to act this way is unbelievable. I say agail to hell with you. I have apologised. If thats not enough then go stick it.
Joe,
This may be none of my business but since you posted this message here I feel that I have a right to respond.
You are one of the posters that I read. Ray Zee is one of the posters I read. I read both of you for different opinions and because of RESPECT for your opinions.
Posting on the gambling forum or any forum should be in relationship to a gambling or similar subject. If one doesn't choose to post or respond to a post then that is a right that should be respected. Both Sklanky and Malmuth have not responded to some of my direct questions in the past. That is their perogative as it is mine to respond or not to respond. As it is yours and Ray Zee's.
Please try to avoid doing anything that will detract from the quality of your future posts. Personal vendettas as your post here appears to be can not be good for any exchange of ideas.
I request that you end it here and let's move on to a more valuable subject.
Your posting buddy,
Vince.
I have learned more 'not in the book' good stuff from Ray Zee than from Mason or David put together. I fact I am going through the archives looking only at his posts. If they charged to use this service, Ray Zee's posts would be a big factor in deciding whether to pay. But they don't charge. It is not that Mason and David aren't helpful, they approach the forum in a completely different manner, tending to quiz rather than just lay it on the line. So, I am with Vince.
Also the quality of this forum is better the RPG because people keep to the point and don't stray into emotional areas. It feels more professional.
yea joe ,what they said -times infinity-nah,nah,na,nah,nah!
When I posted my response to Vince Lepore I had not read this post by Joe, I could tell by it's title that it was not something I wanted to read. Now I have and can not believe that Joe could feel good about what he said. I suspect he did not use the delete password option. I can get upset and regret saying what I said, and wish I could delete saying those things. I would like this whole thread, except for Vince's, because I do not speak for Vince, to be deleted. I know there is an administrational deletion option. I think it should be used.
I'm with Sally! Delete!
Vince
a
Joe,
I don't think you will get many responses to your posts from now on. Nobody owes you anything. Books are for sale, read them and get what you can out of them.
Tom Haley
Do not ever think about deleting me, chicken shit.
potty mouth
Cussing is under valued. Say Fuck. Say fuck, what?
I am going to New York. Lower East Side. I want to be ready.
Find a rough place. Order a beer. "Say, boys! I bet your momma taught you everything you know about sucking a dick." Take a draught. "If fact, didn't the two of you practice on Dad?" "Well, you had a good teacher, after all, she could suck a turd out of a dogs butt."
Silly asshole with no guts. God is a man to you, I bet. Despite those nipples on you chest.
And just hope I start a fight.
I am currently living in Denver, CO and play in Blackhawk. I have noticed all the holdem games our loose aggressive and tight aggressive. Trying to find a loose passive game here is tough. My question is about the Omaha high-low games in Blackhawk, are they better to play and since the short term luck factor is not as prevalent in Omaha, is this the best game to play in a low limit structure(Colorado has limited gaming 3-5 is the highest limit you can play). P.S. Can somebody recommend a good Omahe high-low book. Thanks, Mark
Mark,
omaha hi lo 8 or better will give you good results against players that are too loose. play towards the nuts every hand and stay out of pots with hands that dont make the nuts easily. look in the archives for some posts on the games you are interested in as the information around here is better than most books. good idea to read some books on poker. you can order some of the best right from this site. good luck.
Hang in there, Ray. Say, Ray. What do you think about when, those cards are not doing so well?
Living a little longer?
I'm looking for a home game in the Tampa/Bradenton/Sarasota area. Any info is greatly appreciated.
Might be able to help you out, need more info....
Ace
I would love more info! I'm looking for Hold 'em or 7-stud. Let me know.
How is the Las Vegas Club for Gambling and the such? Thanks
Zonetrap,
I stayed at the Las Vegas Club when I went down to the WSOP 1999. It was comfortable and close to Binion's. The rates are low and reasonable. I didn't gamble much there because I was playing poker at the Horseshoe. I would stay at the Las Vegas Club again and I would recommend it to friends.
Dice
OK, clean, everyone is friendly. It's not the Ritz, but perfectly acceptable. Ask for the North Tower; it's newer and nicer.
Blackjack is good. They have a 2-deck game with more or less standard Vegas rules, and a 4-deck shoe game with what I think are the best rules in Vegas, including (I may not remember all of these just right) surrender (not early), unlimited splits, double on anything, double after split, and double on any number of cards (i.e. not just on your first 2 cards).
They sent us four free weekends for this year because my wife hit a slot jackpot last year. We went for the first one Memorial Day, and there were truly no strings attached. I am working on the Blackjack pit crew for more comps, and they are very accomodating.
Dick
Their shoe game has a terrible cut and even thoughthey have lots of favorable rules they also hit soft 17.
When I was there last, end of May, the cut was generally placed a little more than half way in, about 60% I would guess.
Yes, they hit soft 17.
I have more than once seen the LV Club listed in books and articles (of course time value is important, and I do not remember specific references) as having the most friendly rules. Mason, do you have some better places in mind? My knowledge of Vegas is very limited, based upon 2 or 3 trips a year at most.
I read with interest Arnold Snyder's CP column in which he suggests that basic strategy should call for surrender holding hard 17 vs. dealer's Ace, and some card counting results should result in hitting. What do the more experienced Blackjack players on the forum think of that? It has the ring of truth to it, but I'm not sure I want to trash all the charts I have collected over the years from Thorpe, Revere, Uston, and other respected authors.
Dick
Was just there at the end of July. BJ pen was poor at about 50%, so I had to pass the game up. However, I did have a good time at ther 25 cent crap table, which incidently is upped to a bankroll shattering $1 min.. A fun, cheap game to check out your play. The waitresses were really sweet, however there was this ancient old fart of boxman on the table who complained with each "hop" a certain winning player was making. He was playing $25 unit and doing ok. Not a bad joint and definitely will be stopping back there soon.
Ray Zee nice guy I teaze a lot. Someday I tell him who I really am. Hope he laugh go ha ha.
Meantime check out movie Prince of the City. One le3ad charicter look lots like Ray Zee. When Ray Zee wuz young and pretty.
Bye.
John,
you have me confused with someone else from your past as i have never met anyone in my life that spells as you do.
And here I thought you TAUHT him!
Vince.
Looking for a game or others looking to start one. Let me know if anyone is interested.
Andy
i will be back in d.c. in september when i go back to school (georgetown)and will be looking for a game. write back then. concannon2001@yahoo.com
Just wondering if any one here, including the brilliant authors of this forum, have every played Texas Hold'em online and what your feelings are about it.
this brilliant author hasnt but some of our posters have and if you look in the archives online poker has been discussed. if you play give us your feedback as we are all interested.
thanks I have no clue how to search the archives - Can you help?
look on the left side under forums click on the archives
you should be accessing this forum from here i think http://www.twoplustwo.com/forum.html
Kelly,
All you do is double click on Archives under Forums and that opens it up for viewing. Then start at the most recent month and double click (DC) on that and just scroll as you would normally, until you find Online Poker and then DC on that and you'll be all set. If you don't find anything on that month Right mouse back and start with next month and so on and so on etc.
Good luck Paul
I'm a beginning poker player, and I set up an account at delta I can't give you any expert advice as to playing but I can tell you about the online cardroom
I live in Atlanta so there's no where close for me to play. Delta doesn't seem to have a lot of players playing when you want to play, maybe during prime time hours after seven O'clock. I have an account at planet poker, and there are people playing there constantly so I stuck with that, however if you put money in planetpoker with debit or credit they charge you 6% (bullshit ripoff) Delta doesn't do that, and to not get charged at planet poker you have to send in a check. A new site is coming up called realpoker and it has hold'em, 7 stud, draw and some others, I'm looking forward to checking that out 'cause the web site isn't completed yet.
As for the players, I see a lot of them at planet poker playing a lot of garbage in the hole, I've only played the 3-6 table, but I've sat in on the 10-20 tables and seen the same going on. They charge a rake to a maximum of 3 bucks, and they make you post a big blind charge to sit down, I haven't actually cashed out yet, so if I do I hope they'll actually send me a check peace out salamander
I've been playing online at planetpoker for about a year now. I've found some very good games and some very tight ones. It's kind of slow, but as of late the games are quite fast and you can usually find a table open, whether it be 3-6, 5-10, or 10-20.
It's not as easy to play tightly on the computer since you don't feel like it's real money sometimes. It's easy to steam.
1. are you ahead
2. how much do you think you can make an hour at the limits
3. what do you like and dislike
I have played a little bit there when I was away from CA for a few weeks and missed the game. The thing I noticed most was that the game really is much slower than a "live" game and that would have to cut down on your expected earnings. Guess not being able to call out to your neighbor to look at his cards has its downfall or maybe it was some of the players had their 2+2 books handy and were looking for help in the hand :) My guess is that if you were to see maybe 35 hands an hour in a live game, you might see 20-25 on planet poker. Only thing is that shuffling isnt as time consuming for obvious reasons. Dumb thing is that I think you can call for a deck change! Didn't see one, but I think I read it in the rules.
The action was pretty lively as I stuck mostly to 5-10 and saw almost every pot reaching the rake cap after the flop bets (the rake is 5%, $3 max). I would think many people were not so serious with their money not only because of the nature of the game being more like a video game, but also because you have to use a credit card to start so its not the same losing $500 there as it would be losing $500 crisp benjamins that could be spent anywhere.
I ended up winning a small amount after playing about 3 hours. After awhile the slow pace of the game starts to get to you. I am sure if I lived away from cardroom land I would frequent the place, but as long as a real game isnt far away, I dont think they are that much of a threat.
thanks any others have stories?
OK I went ahead and tried it. Planetpoker I found busier than Delta, but cold and impersonal. I deposited $200, won $158, so I cashed out my initial investment to be in a win/win situation. Tried Delta next, and found it much more fun and friendly - nice players, nice chat, and softer games. Won much more than my $200 deposited here, once again cashed out the overs. They were not as active as PP, but it was explained to me that they were the new kids on the block. I can easily see how they will grow in size because of their attitude and treatment of players.
Do any of the "big guys" play these sites, like Mason or David? I'd like to hear what they have to say also.
Thank you all for your help on this. If you have any questions on my experience, I would like to return the favor.
Kelly
I've been playing on Planet Poker for awhile and have been keeping records. I've played the great bulk of my time in the $3-$6 game with perhaps 10% in the $5-$10 game. The other game spread is $10-$20, which I haven't played in at all. PP claims they will be starting 7-stud games soon. I've played 229 hours total, and I've won $4.82 per hour. Obviously, I'm not playing for the money.
Unfortunately, I only have about 15 hours of live casino play, so I have a limited basis of comparison. Those 244 hours of total play make up my entire poker experience playing with real people--other than kitchen table stuff for change. I've also played some computer poker--the Turbo products and "World Series of Poker Adventure." In other words, my experience is limited, so take my judgements with a great big rock of salt. (In my favor, I've read all of the 2+2 poker books, except for the new 21st Century editions.)
The PP games used to run fairly slowly, but they have upgraded the software and the games are now much faster. There once was a problem with getting regularly disconnected, but that is mostly solved. The game has a core of regulars who play often. After you play a few sessions, you start to recognize their names. Planet Poker has a rule to prevent the players from changing the handle under which they play; thus, you can get a line on the regulars. You can see who is at the table before you "sit down," so there is some opportunity for game selection.
The friendliness of the game varies with who is playing. Sometimes there is a lot of joking; other times very little is said (typed). Most of the players are polite, but there are a few jerks, who are easy to ignore because the worst they can do is type something nasty. I suggest that anyone who plays take the option of turning off the sound effects, which I find extremely annoying, but that is a matter of taste.
I cashed out some money once, and they sent the check promptly. My impression is that the people who run PP are basically honest. The amount that they charge to buy in with a credit card, however, is high--six percent. The rake is 5% up to $3.
The biggest opportunity for cheating would be collusion. Personally, I've not detected any of this in the small game in which I play, but especially note my inexperience here. I've not seen anyone regularly getting trapped between two raisers very much or much raise, raise, fold, fold type stuff. Cheating may be more worthwhile in the $10-$20 game. To help prevent a person from playing two hands, PP only allows one account per address. Also, you can check the town a person is from before you sit down. If you are concerned about collusion, you can avoid games with two people from the same city.
The typical $3-$6 PP game is passive. There is usually not much raising. Unless a known frequent raiser is yet to act in a game, I will limp in from early position before the flop with Kxs or any pair, and this seems to be profitable. Having a few early limpers seems to inspire the middle and late position players, and they will come in also.
Every game has at least one rock. About half the games have someone who plays very loosely, e.g. any ace or any two suited cards. Once in a while, there is a loose-aggressive player, but they don't seem to last for long. Every game appears to have several people who _do_ pay attention to what is going on. Sometimes the games get very tight, with no one calling the big blind a couple of times per round.
I would say about four or five people--including the blinds--typically see the flop. However, as I stated above, if a couple of people enter the pot from an early position, you often see six to eight take a look.
After the flop, the game tightens up. I would say two or three people typically see the turn and the river if there is a bet on the flop--frequently there isn't. I often semi-bluff on the flop, and I believe I'm making a net profit with this play.
I've occasionally read a post on this forum in which someone inquires about a computer program to practice against. Planet Poker is much better practice than programs like the Turbo products. Real people play differently from computer simulations, no matter how well the program is done.
Planet Poker's big advantage is that you can play whenever you want. If you live a long way from a casino and don't know of any (or don't trust) private games, it may be your only chance to play regularly, and if you suffer from insomnia, you can usually find a game at all hours.
Bill C.
Your appraisal of the games, possible cheating, and most other factors seem about right on. My poker student has an account and she, my friend (a Los Angeles 15/30 20/40 pro), and I all play in various combinations. We have done about as well as one would expect in the ring games, which is about 70% of what you would do in the equivalent live game, mostly due to hand speed.
It is a great teaching tool. Another friend back east taught his girlfriend to play quite well using PP. She is not the bookish type but found sitting next to a pro and listening to his logic helped her a lot. Now she wins on her own on PP and in the casino.
My student, who is working her way thru S&M&Z, is now learning holdem after improving dramatically at Omaha. Since she can sit beside me or us and play, we can discuss what we do and why (of course, sometimes my friend and I have different approaches - including one hand posted on the forum).
Anyway, I like it better than Turbo for teaching, which I still can't get to play like a real game (although I think I could if I spent more time on the profiles). One problem on PP is that there are a lot of players and you have to keep notes (I use a folder with a notepad file for each player - but I only bother at 10/20). In a LA ring game, I can often size up a player I haven't seen much very quickly based on appearance and manner, and be close to right most of the time. It has hard to make the association on PP, since you just have the screen name to identify a player.
There are some horror stories. One time just after we started playing, my friend, who is on Mouse 101 computer wise, made a thin call on the end and ended up with the best hand. He gets up from the chair and gives a victory salute and goes to the fridge. Since we had called, we had to enter FOLD or SHOW in order to claim the hand. I'm sitting a few feet behind and after a few seconds sort of realize what was happening. Unfortunately, I trip lunging for the mouse (I don't want to time out causing an all-in), and accidentally enter FOLD. Bye bye $350.
You do get disconnects sometimes and you are protected somewhat (if you have money in the pot) by going all-in but this can only happen twice a day. When you haven't called yet it can be frustrating to see an AA be cut off from the action. The situation with disconnects appears to be getting better with new software.
We also had a hand when we won and were showing down when the whole system crashed. They lost the record of the account but on good faith credited out account $172 when we recounted the action exactly.
I definitely think the stories about cheating on rgp are exaggerated or sour grapes (although many there defended PP). Still, with the availability of online chat (apart from PP's chat available to everybody), you have to worry a little. We did get beaten recently in some short-handed games where we thought we had way the best of it. This was the only time you will see a lot of jamming. Otherwise, the games are medium loose and a little passive.
I already spend too much time in front of the computer and when by myself use it mostly to help me get back to sleep when I am not using it for lessons (I have major insomnia problems). Other than using it as a teaching tool, I don't see it replacing casino or home game play but it is a nice supplement at the lower levels now and then.
Hope this helps,
Rick
Hello all,
I am heading to Reno this weekend and I was wondering where's the best place to play 7-stud and Hold'em. I am looking at 4-8 to 10-20 limits. Also, in general what is the quality of the games? Loose? Passive? or it just varies with the time of day and weather?
Thanks in advance,
carlos
To Scroll Down Might Help
Paul
Thanks. I found it! I vaguely remember a discussion on the places to play in Reno, but I missed it while scrolling down and just thought it was not on the current threads.
carlos
you can also find good stuff in the archives.
The Pepper Mill has a good 10-20 game. Starts every day about 11am. "Hot Aug Nights"in Reno This wk. Huge crowds and classic cars.
Two weeks ago, Vince left LV on a cross country road trip. When last heard from, he was losing big at 2-8 Omaha in Mesquite Nv.
Vince,buddy---where are you? Tell us some stories. Did you make it to Chicago? How about Council Bluffs?
Seems to me someone else owes us a story: A trip report on the tournament in Tunica. I' very interested in the side action and the payouts. Also what limits are there normally in Tunica?
Brett
Tunica report is "coming right up".
Try to be a little more patient. You Las Vegas players are so cranky.
How would you lke to play in a game with Roy, Mason, Cissy, Abdul, Daniel, Melissa, Chris, etc.? You'd be cranky too.
Brett
Hey! What happened in Tunica? How were the tourneys?
I will be in Vegas in two weeks for a couple of days and wonder where several good games of Hold'em are played. Jeff
Hi Jeff,
When I go to Las Vegas, I like the Luxor 4-8 Holdem, at least the least few times I was there the visitors (not the regulars) were awful players, it was the best game I have seen in some time. And the dealers/managers were very friendly (although one new dealer was worse than the AC dealers if that is possible!)
I also like the Orleans room, but I play Omaha hi/lo there, the room is very nice.
I would stay away from the MGM, just not my style.
Mark
Why do you stay away from the MGM? What is different about it's "style." Just curious.
Re: MGM -- It's probably just me: I have found many of the dealers to be surly, the players don't smile, I've sat at more than one table where steamrollers were making it difficult (or two or three obvious friendly steamrollers), etc. Also very very tight games. Also, I have seen tourists who would be loose and make a good game -- after two or three drinks -- get up and leave after people have overly hassled them about string bets or protecting their cards. I know that I try very hard to explain the rules to new people, and gently tell them to protect their cards, it is amazing how friendly people who have come to gamble and have fun can be even if losing, so they can go back home to tell their friends they played.
I have personally found both the Luxor (recently) and the Orleans, as long as I have played there, to be pretty friendly places.
Mark the K
Thanks for the info, Mark. I do want to ask if the mirage is too full of regulars who make the games tough to beat? Obviously you would like to go where you can capitalize on the mistakes of weaker players. Any advice, anyone? Jeff
Jeff,
I found the Mirage had a tougher game than at some other places. Many rock solid regulars in the game I played in.
Mark the K
What an understatement, quite often the biggest rock garden around. Actually the higher the limit there the better the game seems to be. Much of the time the 10-20 is the worst game in the room and the 40-80 isnt all that bad for a Vegas game. Not too many live ones at the lower medium limits, the big donors want to play the biggest games. The best place to play I think is Bellagio, the 4-8 and 8-16 games are fairly lively by Vegas standards and not a whole lot of tight locals, especially when its Thur-Sat. Where would Vegas poker be without that room?
Heres what I saw of the different poker rooms and casinos in Tunica last week. Stories and other "trip report-ish" stuff in the next post.
HORSESHOE--Top notch. The best. 14 tables-all limits. Some 1-5 stud. Higher stud one day. Called an "interest list" for stud/8, but it didn't go. Omaha/8 at the 10-20 level. Omaha high at two different pot limit levels. Hold'em had usually two tables of 4-8. One to three tables of 10-20, and another few of 20-40. A 50-100 table went most of the time I was there. Real good boss, floorpersons and dealers. Even Jack Binion was walking around. People are friendly and polite. Nice room and equipment. Quick to comp. Diane B (from Green Bay) always posts great things about this room---and its all true. Casino and pit are large and packed. Even the buffet was good.
GRAND--Used to be my favorite. They seem to have taken the "locals" market away from Sams. But now it seems there are fewer rich-golfer-businessmen-tourists (like me) in the room. They have a couple more tables than the Horseshoe, but they were not full either time I went. Real nice room. Lots of space--not cramped. Enclosed and quiet. They had 1-5 stud, Omaha/8 at two levels. Their main hold'em game is 2-5-10-10 with blinds of 1 and 2. Their 10-20 was real tight, but I didn't see it on a weekend evening. Best looking casino and pit(s) in town.
GOLD STRIKE--"For a good time ___", go here--after midnight. The wild and wackey Omaha/8 game (of recent legend -- and rgp postings) was not in evidence on my trip. It was OK, but not as good as advertised. Hold'em was 3-6 and 6-12. Lots of off duty dealers, lots of drinking, showing off, and taunting. I had a great time here---I was on vacation. 5 tables in the room. Helpful floorpersons--good dealers. Watch out for the one from New Orleans with the droll humor. Best cocktail waitresses in town--especially the ex-marine bodybuilder. Hey--I was on vacation.
SAMS--A shell of its former activity--too bad. Maybe their upcoming tournament will perk it up. Saw 2 tables going. One of 1-5 stud and one of 4-8 hold'em. I remember 4 hold'em tables going at once in this room.
HOLLYWOOD--Small enclosed room with low limits 1-5 stud and 3-6 hold'em. Casino is real noisy and with all kinds of movie stuff--thus the name.
BALLYS--4 stud tables plopped in the middle of the casino. One table going, 4 players, one dealer, one floorperson, one cranky waitress. Interesting look to the casino.
NO POKER--Sheraton, Harrahs, Fitzgeralds, Capri.
Ok, a partial report is better than nothing. Now be honest; would Vince have a shot at beating any of these games?
Brett
We could stake him -- for thirds of his first buy in to the 3-6 Omaha "loony game". You'd kick in a $20 share, right? Then again, you've seen his game, and I haven't.
"Opinion By" Abe
ps: I also saw the WORST structure hold'em game. 1-5 spread limit, 10 handed, with a single $1 blind.
Yes, I've seen him play. It wasn't pretty. Maybe I'c be better off spending the $20 on waitress tips.
I've seen the spread limit game in Colorado, where the max bet is $5, by state law. Now they mostly play with a $2 blind or $3 and $5 blinds.
Brett
Can anyone tell me where in AC to find a good 10-20 Omaha hi.lo game? I have seen in older messages both the Trump and Tropicana mentioned. Are there other places? Can someone give me a breakdown of which of these Trump/Trop or other games they would play in and why?
thanks in advance,
Mark the K
It's taken me awhile to find the time, but here is my trip report. 5 nights and 5 days in LV for the last events of the Orleans Open.
Springtime
I'm planning on attending the last 4 events of the Orleans. I like the lineup of events, NL HE, PL Omaha, limit HE, and the NL HE main event. I have won quite a few K at Foxwoods since taking a job with Pfizer and moving to Connecticut. However, most of the money has been spent on our new house. I'm depending upon my big refund check to fund this trip.
The IRS is f***ing me. They've lost my refund check. I had arranged for it to be direct deposited, and my credit union has now informed me that I can't simply use the numbers on the bottom of my checks. So, call the IRS, and find out that they deposited the money, and don't know where it is. My wife had been talking to her best friend back in San Diego (where we moved from last November), who was going to come up with her family at the same time so they could visit. Now it looks like no one is going to LV.
Early July
It's way too late to make plans for Cheryl to visit her friend. However, the IRS has found the direct deposit, and has sent me a live check. I talk to Cheryl, and she agrees to let me go to LV on my own and make some money. Whooopee! Big bucks, here I come!
I still had my room reservation for the tournament rate at the Orleans. However, it is now short notice and I have no airline tickets. I call the travel agency that works for Pfizer, and the best rate is like 450. I go online, but don't like the way Priceline.com does business. No choice of flight times. I get a price of 390. from Travelocity.com. Better, but I want cheap. Finally, as the trip approaches, I try Priceline.com again. I put in a bid of 150. with a departure from Providence (I live near Foxwoods, so Providence and Hartford are each about 50 minutes away). No good. I try again at 200. with a departure from Prov or Hart. No good. I try again at 250. What the f**k!!! Priceline tells me that I can't do this. Because I've already tried with this itinerary, I can't try again. I have to either change the date, or the location. In other words, if your dates and locations are solid, you can only try Priceline once, so you'd better start out asking for the highest price you'll pay. That's bull. Why can't I move up incrementally and get the best deal possible? Because they'll make a lot more money selling you a ticket for 300. that you could have gotten for 200., that's why.
I swear off Priceline completely. Then, a couple days before the trip, I decide I'll give them one more try, but they'll have to save me at least 100. So I put in for a departure from Prov or Boston at 290. Delta accepts, and I'm stuck flying out of Boston.
July 21
Get up at my normal time, and pack my bags for tonight. Go to work and put in a three-quarters day. Actually get stuff done. Get out at about 3:15, get home by 3:45. To save money on parking, Cheryl decides to drive me up after work. My plane leaves at 8PM, and we leave Stonington before 4. Takes 3 full hours to get to the airport, as traffic is bad in Prov and worse in Boston. Everything goes smooth at the airport. It's hard to say goodbye to Cheryl and Sophie. Sophie is 2.5 yo, and cute as can be. She is sad to see me going. Get on the plan, a direct flight to LV, and it's 80% empty. This is the first flight to LV I've ever been on that hasn't been jammed full. I start chatting with the attendant, telling her how much I hate the way Priceline does business.
We get seated and pull away from the terminal. We then sit on the runway for an hour before taking off. Apparently there's a huge line of planes waiting their turn. Since it's such a long flight, they'll be showing 2 movies, EdTV and Shakespeare in Love. I decline to pay $5 for the headphones, but the attendant gives them to me, saying "because you had to buy through Priceline". The trip is just started and I'm ahead +2 movie units! EdTV is pretty stupid, and Shakespeare in Love needs to be seen somewhere else besides an airplane, I think. I can't find any real fault with it, yet still didn't enjoy watching it.
We land safely in LV. I have 2 carry-on bags, nothing else, so I'm out to the transportation area immediately. Pass by the Gray Line at 6.60 for the trip to Orleans. CLS is only 5.00. Unfortunately, I'm let out last, so it takes an hour from the time I walk off the airplane until I arrive at the Orleans.
By the time I arrive at the Orleans, check in, drop off stuff at my room, it's after 1:00. This is 4:00 AM east coast time, so I know I shouldn't be playing much poker tonight. I decide to go to the tournament area just to get acclimatized, and hopefully play one satellite before bed.
The room is big and busy. As you walk in, there are almost 40 tables to your left and 50 to your right. The 40 on the left are for live games, and 20-25 are in action. low limit up to 20-40 and PL games. Tournament area is to the right, with the remains of both events in their final stages. It appears to be one table left from the main event at noon, and 2 or 3 tables of the second chance tournament. Close to the entrance is the satellite area, where quite a few satellites are going on.
I've only brought a modest sum of money with me to play with. Specifically, 1200. Like I said, I've done well at Foxwoods, but all that money has gone into the downpayment on our house, or furniture. As it turns out, we really spent too much on our house, and my income doesn't generate much excess after all the bills are paid. Thus, my poker bankroll is seriously depleted, and my job won't regenerate it for me. This whole trip is really too big of a gamble for my bankroll, but if I lose here, I'll just be limited to 3-6 when I get home.
So, I sign up for the cheapest satellite. It's 35. to enter, NL HE. Winner gets 2 lammers of 100. (lammers are chips that have no cash value, and can only be used to enter a tournament) plus 20. cash. Second place gets 60. cash. We play 10-handed, with T300 to start, 15 minute limits, beginning with blinds of 10,20. Nothing much happens the first level, but I finish with T315. Second level (15,30) is good to me, and I double through plus to T720. I lose 2 key hands during the third level (25,50). I'm dealt JJ in the SB, play is 5-handed. One fold to cutoff seat (seat 1 spot right of the button), who raises to T100. Cutoff has more chips than me, so I just call, as I want to see the flop before committing my chips. BB then goes all-in for T175, cutoff calls, I call. Flop is KQ7, check, check. Turn is K, with 3 clubs now on board, check, check. River is 4, with 4 clubs now on board, check, check. Cutoff turns over Ah8h for nothing, but BB wins with QT, no clubs. Who didn't misplay their hand?
Next hand, I again get JJ on the button. Folded to me, I make it T150. SB goes all-in again for T525, BB folds, I call. Flop is all smaller cards, and I show my JJ. SB admits he's drawing thin, then says he got there when a 6 comes on the river. Pocket 6s lucked out, and I'm down to 275. Play no more hands this level.
Blinds go up to 50,100, and I improve my stack to T625 during this level. I don't remember how. I believe we got down to 3 players during this limit. The final limit for this satellite is 100,200 (as it turns out). I win a couple of pots, busting a player out, and am up to about T1700. In heads-up play I improve my stack to the point where I've got my opponent T2200:T800. The final hand is weird. I raise my opponent's T200 blind on a steal with 34o. He calls the T800 bet all-in, and shows K4o. I turn over my 3, and say "this is my only live card." The dealer then immediately puts out a flop with two 3s in it. The river is the last 3, and I win the satellite with quads.
I chat with some friends briefly, and go to bed.
July 22
Wake up earlier than I expected. Had breakfast at the coffee shop. OK.
Decided to play 1 satellite before the main event at noon. Another 35. buyin NL HE satellite. I got eliminated during the first level. I had bled my stack from T300 down to about T170. Got all-in preflop with presto, and lost to JJ. Don't understand how I could lose that one! However, I sold my fake diamond ring (super gawdy mans-style ring, with a 5ct cubic zirconia, a bunch of smaller CZs, and gold-plated) for $75, a profit of $50 on the ring, so I guess I really won $15 in this satellite.
Main event. NL HE. 100. + 20. buyin, with unlimited 100. rebuys. My limit-by-limit notes aren't available, so I don't know the exact details of the structure. I know I only lasted 2 hours, and that I did one rebuy and one add-on, for a total investment of 320. 2 hands in my notebook.
In a blind vs. blind confrontation, I raised from the SB with KcJc. Blinds were at 15,25, and I made it T65 to go. BB called. I think we both started with about T6-700. The flop was Tc3c2. I checked, and she bet T100. I check-raised to T300, and she went all-in for about T2-300 more. I called. Last 2 cards were a 9 and 6, no clubs, and she won with T3o. I may have misplayed my hand, but I know she misplayed hers.
My elimination hand was TT. One early limper, I limped in middle position when the blinds were 25,50, and I had about T800. The button limps behind me, the SB folds, and the BB checks. There is T225 in the pot. Flop is 663. 2 checks, and I bet T200, button folds, and BB raises all-in with a little more than I have. Early limper folds, and I have a decision to make. The BB is unknown to me, but has been playing very aggressively. He certainly doesn't need a 6 or 33 to make this play. I also feel that he doesn't have a big pair, as he would have most likely raised preflop with 3 limpers already in the pot. I finally decide that JJ is the only likely hand I should fear, and that 77-99 are more likely. I call, and am shown KK. No T comes to save me, and I am done. I'm still quite surprised by his hand. Again, I think I may have misplayed my hand, but I'm sure he misplayed his.
Afterwards I get into a 10-20 half-kill Omaha8 game, but it's not so good. I lose a little, and quickly move to a 6-12 half-kill HE game. It's pretty good, and I make a profit. I then get called for a satellite. Today the satellites are mostly PL Omaha (the next day's main event). The buyin is 60., with the winner getting 4 lammers of 100. plus 60. cash, and second place 70. cash. I pretty much rule this satellite. We start with T300, and I get that up to T580 during the 10,20 level. I then improve to T1190 during the 15,30 level, and to T2250 during the 25,50 level. A few hands into the 50,100 level it gets down to me and Bob Thompson. We play a few hands, and the chips are split T2050:T950 (my advantage). He asks for 1 lammer to give it up, and I agree. This means I get 3 lammers + 60., while he gets 1 lammer + 70. By my math, a fair deal would give him 1 lammer plus 93.50, so I don't mind taking the 22.50 he's giving me.
Dinner break. What did I do? I can't recall. Really need to work on this memory problem.
Play some 10-20 Omaha8, lose 6. Play some 5,5,10 blind PL HE, lose 35. Get called for another satellite. PL Omaha again, but this time it's 100. buyin, with the winner getting 8 lammers + 120. We also start with T500 in chips instead of T300, but same structure, so you get a little longer to wait for a hand. I basically break even the first 2 levels, and then move up to T1200 during the 25,50 level. Move up a little more to T1550 during the 50,100 level. We are now 3-handed during the 100,200 level. The chip leader proposes a near-even split. Myself and the other guy get 3 lammers, and he gets 2 lammers + 120. cash. I have T1450, leader has T2200, and trailer has T1350. I have NO problem with this deal, as my EV at this point is only 266.80. Again, I'll take a gift of 33.20. Trailer also has no problem. I don't know why the chip leader offered such a good deal. Why open negotiations with anything less than a profitable deal? I briefly considered asking the trailer to give up some money so I could get a little more (I mean, I had more chips than him, and should get more than him, right?). However, since there was basically no margin between 300 and 320, what could I do, ask him to give me 5.? Didn't seem worth upsetting a deal that was making me 33.20.
Geez, 4 satellites, 3 profits. How long can this last? Hopefully forever.
Went back to the PL HE game for about 45 minutes, made some money, and got called for another satellite. Let's go!
This one is theoretically for the TOC. Buyin is 160., with the winner getting 15 lammers. Game is NL HE. Again start with T500. I break even the first level. Lose it all in 1 hand during the second level. Cutoff has limped first-in for T30. I raise to T100 on the button with AKo. Blinds fold, and cutoff goes all-in. Something tells me he doesn't have AA or KK, so I call. Sure enough, he doesn't. He has 66, but makes a straight to beat my K that paired the flop.
I then get into a 60. PL Omaha satellite. My stack goes from T300 to T60 the first level, and I then bust out a couple of hands into the second level. So much for my satellite rush. It's 1:00, and time for bed.
July 23
Eat some breakfast, and get to the tournament area by 9. Immediately get in a 35. PL Omaha satellite. Lose out in about 40 minutes.
At this point, my bankroll hasn't improved all that much from it's 1200 starting point. I decide to forego the main event that day. It will be 200. + 20. PL Omaha, with 1 optional 200. rebuy. If I play this event and lose, it will leave me with just enough money to play the last 2 main events, but nothing else. Since the last 2 events are HE, at which I am much better than PL Omaha, I decide not to risk it. Instead I get into a 10-20 HE game.
During this game I meet Diane. Yes, the soon to be famous Diane from Green Bay who was filmed by the Discovery Channel. She has been in town a few days, but the film crew won't start up until tomorrow (is that right?). We have a pleasant chat, and then get more serious about the game. I ask her if she's seen Llew (Linda Lewis), who is supposed to meet me at some point and give me a ride to the Gambler's Book Store. Diane is kind (and smart) enough to call Llew's room, and comes back to inform me that Llew will be down in a little bit, and knows to look for me at table 3. When Llew shows up I say hi, and tell her I'll play around to my big blind (I was about to play my small blind, so it would be a little bit). I should have gotten up immediately, as I was something like 190. ahead when she showed up, and down 10. when I quit.
We go out to the valet and get her rental. We drive to GBS, getting lost a few times on the way. Both of us had been there before, and thought we knew where it was. But we had no map and no exact street address, and a vague memory is worse than no knowledge at all in this circumstance, as I imagine most of you know. I am excited about perusing the used poker book section, something that exists nowhere else in the world. Unfortunately, it doesn't exist here either. Llew and I cannot find the poker section in the used book room. I ask the guy behind the counter, and he informs us that they seldom get in any used poker books, and when they do, the books get bought immediately. This sucks. I finagled a ride out here for nothing. I can buy any book on the shelf off the internet (preferably from ConJelCo, hint, hint). We then swing by the Gambler's General Store, so I can buy some used decks of casino cards for a LV night party I'm having soon. We grab some burgers on the way back, and I'm ready for action.
I sign up for the second chance tournament at 7 tonight. The game is NL HE, 100. + 20. buyin with one optional 100. rebuy. There is a monster line at 5 when they start taking signups, and by 5:45 it is sold out. They are taking alternates to replace bustouts, and get up to something like 70 alternates before everyone gives up. At about 6, they call down a 160. NL HE satellite. I figure that this will be over about the time the tournament starts, give or take only a few minutes, so I buyin. I am told that I am the last one in. Then, a couple of players back out. One seat is sold immediately, but we then end up waiting over half an hour to sell the last seat. So, by the time we start, it's 6:37. Now I know I will miss the start of the tournament, unless, of course, I'm unlucky here. Is Hobson's Choice the appropriate term?
Again start with T500 in chips, 10-handed. Chris Bigler, 5th place finisher in this year's WSOP main event, is on my left. He is the first person to recognize me based upon my collection of fossils on the table, and introduces himself. Apparently he is a regular lurker on RGP. His game is unrelentingly aggressive. It is probably to his advantage that he is still pretty unknown, as his level of aggression is going to lead to his getting called down a lot once he is known. Of course, he's probably good enough to use that to his advantage when it starts to happen.
I largely coast through the first half-hour, winning a little the first level and losing it back the second. Then at the third level, 25,50 blinds, I run my stack from T465 to T2225. I am crushing the table at this point. An interesting hand came up during this level as well, before I went into crush mode. Chris is the chip leader, has raised the blinds from late position, and is called by the BB. When the hand is over, the BB is all-in, and has sucked out (modestly, he wasn't a huge dog) on Chris. Then, while still apparently fuming, Chris comes in for a raise first-in the very next hand. As Chris is grabbing his chips for a raise, he is fumbling with them. As he tries to grab the desired amount and fails a couple times, he says "damn, just bet it all". By doing this Chris has overbet the pot, raising all-in about T450 into the 25,50 blinds. The SB, the player who just doubled through Chris, thinks briefly and calls, the BB folds. When the cards are dealt out, Chris turns over AA and wins. Chris then turns to me and winks, saying "Nice steam-raise, huh?!"
By early the next level, I am heads-up with Howard Mann, who has the chip lead at about T3K to my T2K. We play a few hands, and I've got T1800. He offers a deal to give me 5 lammers and 50. cash. The math is easy at this point, just take my T1800 and divide by 10 and multiply by 3 to convert to cash value. 540. cash value, being offered 550., and he's too good a player to be likely to give me more, so I say yes. Nice profit of 380. Starting to like satellites again.
By the time this satellite is over, it's almost 8:00, and almost end of the rebuy period for the tournament. I've been blinded from T500 down to T360, and add-on for T500 more, just in time for the break, and play no hands. After the break they race off the T5 chips, and I go from T860 to T875. They are using the new format where each player can win only one chip during the race. Thus, if there are 3 T25 chips to be won, they will be won by 3 different players. Highest card gets a chip, then the next highest, etc., with the proviso that no one can win more than 1.
The 3rd level is 25,50 blinds, and I go from T875 to T1250. During this level I cripple Tom McEvoy. I am the SB, and Tom is 2 seats to my right. He raises to T175 first-in, button folds, and I go all-in for T625 with ATo. Tom calls with an underpair, and I flop a T to double up. I must say that I was very UNimpressed with Tom's play. Not on this or any other hand in particular, but his play in general. During the whole time he was there, Tom was reading this book. He only looked up when it was his turn to act. He only rarely slowed down the game, but I was surprised to see a player of his stature paying so little attention to the game. If this event is so small that it's not worth his full effort, then why play at all? I mean, even a great player needs to pay attention so he can get a line on his opponents, right? Nothing really happens during the 50,100 level, and I finish with T1300.
During the next level the big hand occurs. I am in middle position and get dealt AA. My stack is at T1200, and blinds are 100,200. UTG raises to T600, and I raise all-in. The chip leader at our table, a loose and weak player who is pretty much guaranteed not to win, thinks a long time and calls my raise. Bill Seymour is the BB, and has only T475 (T200 of which is in the blind). He clearly has a piece of cheese, because he takes a long time to decide what to do. Finally he says something about hoping we all have high cards, and calls all-in. The original raiser calls all-in for about T1000. Thus, 3 of the 4 players are all-in. The flop is 9h7c6c, turn is Kc, and river is Qc. I do NOT have the Ac. Original raiser turns over 66 for a set, Bill Seymour turns over 85o for a straight on the flop, and the chip leader turns over TT including the Tc. I've gone all-in with AA before the flop against 3 players and come in 4th place! Instead of winning a T4000 pot at a time when the average stack is less than T2000, I am busted. This one hurt a lot.
Played another 160. NL HE satellite. Got my stack up to T750 max. Lost going all-in preflop with AdKd vs. QQ. I was down to T450 at the 50,100 level, so not any room to maneuver. It's just wait for a hand and go all-in at that point.
I then got called for the PL half/half game. It is played with blinds of 5,10 during the Omaha hands, and 10,20 during the HE. I decided to take a shot here, as there were a couple of weak players who were gambling it up. I bought in for 500., the minimum, intending to try to double up and then probably quit. Unfortunately variance wasn't on my side, and I got busted. Decided that the other guy didn't have much on a flop of 9dTd3h, when I was holding QdJd. Heck, even if he had a big hand, I was a favorite. I bet out, he raised, and I reraised all-in. He called with 7d7s!!! And it held up. I was a huge favorite, with 20 cards to hit twice. Personally, I can't see how he can call here. It's too bad I wasn't properly financed for the game. If he kept that up, how could I help but make money?
Played a limit HE satellite for 100. Never got anywhere, although I lasted close to an hour. Then, I entered another one of the 160. NL HE satellites. Won a little, lost a little, doubled up the 3rd level, doubled up the 4th level. Got down to heads-up play during the 5th level with 100,200 blinds and T5000 in play. At one point I had the lead T3K:T2K. We're playing for 15 lammers. My opponent asks for a 8:7 split, with his associate (a guy sitting near him) saying that's a fair deal. I say the chips are 3:2, so 9:6 is a fair split. He counters that it will only take 1 hand for him to take a big lead, so the split should be closer to even. I say no thanks. He gets upset, making comments to his friend that I can't quite hear, but appear to be denigrating towards me. We play a few hands, and the chips are T2800:T2200 in my favor. He offers a save, where the winner will pay the loser 160. I think I should put the needle in him and get him on tilt by countering with a save of 220. for me and 160 for him, but decide that I'd rather have an opponent who will fold to my steals than one who will play aggressively, so I just accept. He then sucks out in a series of hands, and I get my money back. I'm very upset with myself for not doing better here, and decide to go to bed.
(to be continued)
(continued from part I)
July 24
Wake up earlier than I expected, but I'm not tired. Grab some breakfast, and go to the tournament room to figure out what to do prior to the noon tournament. I get into a brand-new 10-20 ½kill Omaha8 game. I'm in the 7 seat, and the guy in seat 6 is French, and doesn't speak much English. He draws the BB the first hand, myself and a bunch of others limp in (I don't recall what I had, and since I folded on the flop it doesn't matter much), and French Guy (FG) raises, we all call. Flop comes something like Ad5sTs. FG bets out, a few calls, late position raise, FG reraises, all call. Turn is 9c, FG bets, same callers, same raiser, FG reraises again, all call again. River is 2h, FG bets, I think 1 caller folds, and original raiser is openly whining about the 2, so you know he has 23 (and as it turns out 236), but he calls. FG turns over AAs3s4, for top set on the flop, nut flush draw, and 3rd nut low draw. He rivered the wheel to scoop a monster. However, despite the hand he showed, everyone at the table is convinced he's some super lucky fish, because he has had so much trouble communicating what he wants to do. For example, when he bet the river, he tried to put out about 80. in chips, and the dealer pushed back all but 20. Then, FG still tried to put out more chips, even before anyone had called. You would think he didn't understand limit poker at this time.
As we continued with the game, half the table was on tilt (non-mad tilt, but tilt) with this guy. He started to get the hang of limit bets, but the frequent half-kill to 15-30 kept confusing him. I took French in high school, so I still knew the French words for 10, 20, 15, 30. I kept telling him the amount, yet he still would frequently put out too much. After a while I realized that this guy was too good, and knew exactly what his actions were doing. He probably had a real problem like this before, and now acted it out everytime he was at a table of strangers, knowing that they would give him too much action. Of course, it didn't hurt that he was dealt a long string of premium hands right off the bat, and continued to hit the flop almost every time. He must have scooped or halved 7-8 of the first 10 hands. Of course, even knowing what was going on, I couldn't complete any of my draws, and lost about 150. in a little over an hour.
Tournament time, main event, 300. + 30. limit HE. We started with T700 and 15-30 betting limits. I had Robert Turner 2 seats to my right, and Melissa 2 seats to my left. Melissa is a very tall, very thin, very pretty redhead. I don't really know her, but remember seeing her at quite a few tournaments at the Commerce and Normandie when I lived in San Diego and would go up to LA for the majors. Is this Melissa Heyden (sp?) who played at BARGE with Scott Byron et al. in the team HORSE event?
Early on, I had determined to take notes of all my key hands. So, on the second hand, I limp UTG with 88, 4 players see the flop. Flop contains two 5s, and early position bets, I raise as I don't put him on a 5, and I want to eliminate the overcards behind me. He reraises, and I call. He checks the turn, I bet, he check-raises, and I call. River he bets, I call. He has presto, and flopped quads. Oops, badly played hand, good thing it's the first limit, and I only lost T150.
On the next hand, no one raises my BB of Q6o. Flop comes Q high, early position limper bets, everyone else folds, I call. Turn doesn't make any draws, I bet, he calls. River is a 3, I check, he bets, I call. He has Q3o, I lose. -T90 that hand.
Three hands later, I'm first in from the cutoff seat and raise with Ah9h. BB calls, flop is 59J, no heart draw for me. BB checks, I bet, he check-raises, I 3-bet, he calls. Turn is Q, check, check. River is 8, check, check. BB wins with 85o. -T75.
Called a raise with 66 the next hand, as there was multiway action. 6 players saw the flop of 39T, on which I folded. -T30.
At this point I'm getting pretty dejected. I've lost half my stack, and the first orbit isn't even complete. I'm looking at my notes, and thinking that this is going to read like one long whine. My attitude at this point is not favorable.
Next hand, a couple of limpers including Robert Turner, I limp with As5s. Flop is AcQd8d. RT bets first, I raise, he 3-bets, I call. If you don't know RT, you're probably wondering why I'm being so aggressive. He doesn't need even a full 8 or 9 card draw to play a hand this fast. With this flop, KcJc, 9hJd, and the like will do. We continue betting aggressively through the turn, and then both check the river. He ties me with Ad5d, and was freerolling me. At least I made a little bit of profit.
Nothing much happens for awhile. Then in later position, I 3-bet after an early position raise with JJ. BB calls, raiser calls. Flop is 68K. They check, I bet, BB calls, raiser folds. 7 on the turn, both check (I'm concerned that he has a K with a weak kicker). River is T, BB bets, I call, and he wins with 7To. -T90.
This is my absolute low point. I'm down below T200 in chips, and it's still the first level. I've almost never done this poorly in a tournament before. In fact, I can't recall more than 1 time ever losing 500 in less than an hour of 15-30, even wild games with big pots where you pay a lot for your draws. Anyway, I mentally recoup and determine that I'm going to go out playing a good hand, if at all.
Also, I stop taking notes of anything other than really important hands, and even these weren't written down much anymore, as I got too involved with the game.
Next level is 25,50 bets. There's a raise, 2 cold calls, and I reraise with AA. The button kind of makes it 4 bets behind me. He puts out 4 chips, and as the blinds are folding, he grabs back one of his chips, saying he only meant to call. The original raiser puts out a third chip, limpers also call, and I say raise, putting out 5 chips. I want a ruling on the button's 4-bet. It is ruled that the button didn't raise, even though he put out 4 chips, and even though there was action behind him, as the dealer misdescribes the hand to the floor, saying the button pulled back his chip before the blinds acted. Final board is Q68-3-T, and my AA holds up all-in on the turn. As I'm being pushed the pot, the BB tells me that if the button hadn't 4-bet, he would have called with pocket 6s and busted me. Which tells you that he folded before the button pulled back his chip. I guess I got lucky?
The next hand I recorded is at the 100,200 bet level. By this time I have a healthy stack, and am playing aggressively and slightly more loosely than my normal ring game. People are folding to me unless they make a good hand, for the most part, and I'm determined to take advantage of it. I raise early with AhQd, and Men "The Master" Nguyen calls, with all others folding. I'm surprised he called me, because he's in middle position, and only had T300 to start the hand. In his spot, any hand I'm calling with I'm raising with to ensure that the pot is heads-up, to maximize my chances of winning. I bet blind, because I want Men to be pretty sure I've got a premium pair. If he's confident in this (incorrect) read, he might fold a small pocket pair that misses the flop. The flop is 93J, all hearts, and Men calls. I don't mind, as I have the nut flush draw and 2 overcards. Men turns over Qh8h, for a made flush. I have 7 outs, and catch one of them, the 2h, on the turn. Thus, the Ad on the river is meaningless (except that Men didn't complete his 1-outer straight flush draw), and I've busted out a tough competitor.
This next hand is at the 500, 1K level. We're getting pretty close to the money. I'm at a new table with Max Stern 2 seats to my right. On this hand I'm the BB, and MS is the button. UTG raises, this maniac calls (don't know how he made it this far, must be running EXTREMELY good), MS calls, SB folds, I call with 9c5c (not a great hand, but I'll play it in this spot). Flop is Jd9h2c. Not great, but not awful. I have 2nd pair and a backdoor flush draw. I hope no one bets the flop. Yes, it's checked around. I think the maniac must have brain-lock (for him, his normal routine would be to bet any flop checked to him). Turn card is 3c, and I have picked up the flush draw. I check, UTG checks, and the maniac wakes up and bets. MS calls, and I raise. At this point, I know no one has an overpair, and I think that there is a pretty good chance that no one has a J or pocket TT. If I'm wrong and I'm not in the lead, I've got probably 9-14 outs to win. Plus, if I am ahead, I want to get rid of UTG, who I read for AK or AQ, so that I can eliminate 6 outs against me. UTG does fold, and the others call. River is 7s, and I check, as I don't think a worse hand will call my bet, I don't think a better hand will fold, and I might induce a bluff. Sure enough, the maniac bets, MS calls, and because of his call, I'm not sure that I want to call. Finally, I decide that the pot is too big to give up, especially the way the hand has been played. Plus, I've still got a good stack if I'm wrong. Maniac shows A2 for bottom pair, MS has presto (55), and I win with my pair of 9s, a pot of about 11K. Since the average stack at the final table will be about 32K, this is a big pot with 4 or 5 tables to go. In fact, this pot represents about double the average stack.
After the hand, MS is talking to a guy sweating him, and is clearly on tilt. He is very upset with himself for not raising me off my hand on the river. I can certainly see his point, but to do that would have taken most of his remaining chips. I mean, when he called that last big bet, his stack had less than 2 big bets remaining. Thus, if he raises, he is opening himself to a reraise that would put him all-in. He would have to be very certain he's ahead of the maniac, and pretty sure he can make me fold (or beat me) to make that raise.
Nearing the end of this level, and Scotty Nguyen, 1998 World Champion, is moved to my table. He is dressed a lot like a pimp, as some people have noted in prior posts. However, he seems quite pleasant and I certainly have no complaints about him or his attitude. While I'll never be accused of dressing like a pimp, I certainly will be (and have been) accused of dressing poorly.
Next level, bets are 1K, 2K. We are down to 31 players, with 30 being paid. The play is VERY tight, and I have the biggest stack in the tournament. I am stealing a lot, because they are letting me. I don't blame them. When the chip leader does this, and is making it clear that he'll bet all the way, you are facing elimination if you play with him. Even if you have AK, you are taking a big risk, because AK isn't a huge favorite (don't get me wrong, it's a favorite, just not huge) over any 2 undercards.
Anyway, on the hand under discussion, I am first in from late position, with Scotty Nguyen in the BB. He is a slightly below average stack with 6K. I raise with Qh9h, and SN calls. The flop is KJx, SN checks, I bet, he calls. Turn is another little card, SN checks, I bet, he folds. He is now down to 3K. I think he must have misplayed his hand. I will seldom call a bet from the BB in a situation like this unless I'm willing to go all-in. Maybe SN thought he'd call and determine what to do by "reading" me. If so, he read must have been wrong. If not, then I think he probably shouldn't have called in the first place.
Next hand, everyone folds to me again, and I steal again by raising with QsTs. SN appears a little on tilt, and after 10 seconds of thought, reraises all-in from the SB. BB folds, I call. I tell him he's ahead, and table my hand. Board comes T32-Q-9. SN mucks his hand unseen, and we're all in the money. I think we've been guaranteed around 600-700. I don't pay that much attention, because my goal is to continue growing my stack with an eye towards 1st place. However, I do slow down on my stealing, especially from early or middle position, as I know that the shorter stacks who have locked up a profit will now be much more willing to take some risks.
I did not record any more of my hands. I was too busy paying attention to every hand and every player at this point. Next time I'll get Tom Sims to sit behind me an record everything so I can get a complete record of how well (poorly) I played. I do recall a hand when we were at 2 tables. Everyone had about 1,000. locked up, and 10th only paid about 800. more, so there was more incentive to win chips and shoot for a high paying spot than there was to rock up. I'm in the SB, everyone folds, and I steal-raise with 45s. The BB is at least a decent player (didn't know him, but he made no obvious errors while we were at the same table), and called my raise. His stack did not consist of more than 6 small bets, so I immediately gave him credit for a good hand when he called. The flop was K55. Well, who cares how good his hand is now, I'm going to do whatever it takes to get him all-in, win or lose. I check, he bets, I call. I don't raise here because if he's bluffing, he'll be able to let go of his hand. Turn is a Q, I check, he bets, I now raise him all-in. I raised here because again, if he's bluffing, he might have picked up a draw or have a live A. If I wait and bet the river he'll give up his draw, whereas right now he'll have to call for the size of the pot if he thinks his draw can win. River is an unneeded 4, and I bust another player. I've been busting many of them, and my stack has been growing almost constantly.
By the time we get to the final table, I have about T81K. The average stack is about 32K. After subtracting my chips, my average opponent has about 27K. We lose a player pretty quick, and then don't lose the 9th place for a long time. At one point early in final table play, I'm up to about 120K, and no one had more than half this many. Unfortunately, from this point on I do not win a single hand, except for 2 blind steals, once with AA. Every other time, I am raising preflop with good, even very good hands, am getting called much more often than I should, and am losing to worse hands. Examples include things like raising first in from late position with AT, getting called by the BB with Q9, and losing when the flop is 9JK, while they're calling my bets on the flop and turn. Mike Paulle told me I was playing too many hands, but I was continually dealt good cards. I just couldn't avoid getting outflopped. The 2 guys from Costa Rica who finished 1st and 2nd were amazingly lucky, especially the 2nd place finisher. I thought the eventual winner played very well, and only got lucky when he got into spots that really couldn't be avoided. The 2nd place guy played some hands that he should never have played, and got away with it every time. I think he must have survived between 5 and 10 all-ins at the final table. Heck, his presto flopped quads against me. This was one of my worst preflop matchups the entire final table, 2 overcards vs. an underpair. Most of the hands where cards were shown, I was a solid (at least 3:2) favorite preflop. Oh well, not much you can do about that.
Mike suggested that when I got to 100K, I should have pretty much shut down, and only played premium cards. With this strategy, I could have almost guaranteed survival to the last 3 spots, and then made a deal for 20K or so. While I won't say he's wrong, I don't think this strategy maximizes EV. If my luck had broken even at the final table, I would have had well over half the chips when we got down to 3-handed, and made a deal for 15-20K more than Mike's strategy. If my luck had been better than average, I would have had virtually no incentive to make any deal, as I would have held 75% of the chips at that point.
Oh well, a 4K profit isn't all that bad, let's just hope for more next time.
July 25
I have entered the final event, the 500. + 40. NL HE. I am really jazzed to do even better than yesterday. Unfortunately, the format is pretty fast. It only takes a raise preflop, and a bet and a raise on the flop to get someone all-in, even during the first level. I bleed away a little. I raise preflop with AKs, flop comes small with 2 of my suit. I check and raise all-in, but lose to the bettor who flopped a set with 44. I don't see how I could get away from that hand without being psychic. This guy had been playing pretty loose and aggressive, so how do you intelligently fold on this flop? Maybe Scott Byron can tell me how I should have played it.
I get into a 20-40 HE game, and lose a good bit. I then get called for the PL HE game (5,5,10 blinds), and win most of it back. It's now time for the last tournament, the second chance Omaha8 event.
I am at the same table as Oklahoma Johnny Hale, and saw him go all-in with A222. He was in late position, there were 3 limpers ahead of him, and he had slightly less than 2 small bets. I think it was a mistake.
I start with T500, lose T10 the first level, win T20 the second level, add-on T500 more, lose T10 in the chip race, break dead even the third level, so I'm still at T1K. I lose a series of hands during level 4, and am busted, without ever doing much of anything at all. My bustout hand was one I saw for free from the big blind. Flop was JJ3, and I had JA45. Other guy had J3, and I never caught a better full.
Back to 20-40 HE, lose a bit more. Then to PL HE, 5,5,10 again, and win it back and then some. This game was played with Patri of the purple hair. I enjoyed playing with him quite a bit. He has energy and style (not just his hair). I was neutral in my opinion of him before (because I pretty much ignore what anyone says about anyone on the internet, including themselves), and now consider him to be at least a pretty good player (I'll need to see more of him before I can rate him higher). Patri moves on to a stud 8 or better game, and this game dwindles away and breaks. Back to 20-40 HE, where I win again.
I then get called for the big game, PL half-HE half Omaha high, with blinds of 10,25. I probably shouldn't play in this game given my bankroll. One bad beat can cost you everything. I buy in for only a little more than the minimum, and don't plan on rebuying, no matter how good the game is. I do OK for a good while, and even get up a few hundred, mostly in the HE rounds. Then, I overplay one hand (maybe, you judge for yourself) and go bust. I am dealt QdQ6d8d in second to last position. There are 2 limpers, and I also limp for 25. The button raises to 75., SB folds, BB calls, limpers call, I call. Also, everyone has more money than me. The button appears to be a solid player who is not likely to be playing garbage, or even a marginal hand. He has AA suited, maybe a big wrap-type hand (e.g., 9TJQ), something where he wants to build a pot preflop. He could have raised to 150. to go, and his not doing so indicates he's glad to have company. Flop is 5d7hKh. I've flopped a straight draw, but there's a flush draw out there also. My Queens don't look to be of much use, except for the third nut backdoor flush draw (which doesn't mean much). We all check to the raiser, who bets 150., which is called by a limper, and then me. I'm looking for one of my 6 nut outs, for which I'm getting immediate odds of almost 5:1, plus significant implied odds. The only concern here is whether the limper is on the same draw plus redraws, as I don't put the raiser on any hand with a 68 (unless he's got AA68 suited). The turn is a Q, not the heart. I've got to like this card. Right now, the only better hand is KK. I feel that he's much more likely to have AA with a flush draw than KK or anything else I should worry about. There is over 800. in the pot, and I have 1125. in my stack. My main concern is the flush draw, and I don't want to give him pot odds to draw for it. I bet 500. which does not give him odds for a 9-card draw, and hopefully is just as threatening as betting the pot, since I can obviously go all-in on the river. He apparently isn't concerned about that, as he raises me all-in. Now I've got to think. I feel that there is now a high chance that he has KK, a hand I did not give him credit for until now. However, he might only have AA, or he might be drawing to a hand like 4567 or 5678 which has given him 2-pair as well. I'm basically getting 4:1 in a spot where I might be ahead, and if behind, I have at least 6 outs. Overall, I can't fold here, and don't know that I should. I call, he has KKxx, and I don't improve.
In retrospect, my biggest mistake wasn't the call. I had 9 outs (1 Q, 4 fours, 4 nines), so was actually getting an overlay. My mistake was not trying to reduce variance. We showed our hands after I called. I should have asked him for a deal where we would put out 2 or 3 river cards, and have each card play for a share of the pot. He probably would have agreed, and I would have had a much better chance of not going bust. Of course, this deal, which is quite common in some PL and NL games, actually favors the person in the lead (and therefore disfavors me), but it's so effective at reducing variance that it's worth the slight loss in EV.
That was all for me. I chatted with a few friends, and went to bed. It was after 3 in the morning, and I had a plane at 11. Woke up in the morning, got cleaned up, checked out safely, took a cab, caught my plane, and flew to Utah. That was expected, as my connection started there. Everything was smooth, caught my plane to Boston, and met my wife and daughter at the gate. It was great to see them again.
Overall, I made a couple K on this trip, after expenses. Which is nice. I didn't make the big haul, and came so close I could taste it. Which sucks. One thing I did learn is that I really don't want to be a full-time pro. This is the first time I've gone to a major tournament to play in many of the events. All my previous experiences have been 1-day trips to LA when I lived in San Diego, or the Foxwoods tournaments, where I'm a local and go home. BARGE is more comparable, but it's primarily a social event, and doesn't involve playing for tens of thousands of dollars. Anyway, after 5 days of this, I realized that I wouldn't want to do this all year long. It would get old before the first year was over with, and I'd end up like Tom McEvoy, reading a book of fiction during a tournament, because I'm just so tired of the whole thing, that it can't keep my attention.
If anyone would like to comment on any of the hands described herein, please do so. However, because of the length of my report, you should probably do a cut-and-paste and start a new thread with it. I won't mind.
I didn't mention most of the people I met or saw again here, as I'm so bad with names, I knew that I would fail to mention some good folks by accident. So, don't think I didn't enjoy meeting and chatting with all of you. I didn't "meet" any jerjs this trip, as the jerjs were all folks I avoided meeting entirely.
I hope to see many of you at FARGO in November (is that the right time?), at Foxwood's World Poker Finals in December, or at the WSOP next spring. I plan on attending all of them (and winning quite a few of them as well). Good luck to all.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks for both posts Greg. They were great! Now that you have learned that you are not going to be a "big-time" pro......maybe Two Plus Two will hire you as a Tournament Player/Trip Report consultant....lol Thanks again.
Tom
I saw this interesting show last night about gambling on cable tv, including many tapes of scams which people pull in casinos.
One of these was a real tape display from a sky-camera (with faces covered) of someone palming cards at a poker table. I could not detect the cheating - the tape was fuzzy - but they did walk the guy out, and then they showed what he was 'apparently' doing. And the pro who did it for tv was good.
It made me think of a very loose game I played in at the MGM (?) a few years ago. Lots of terrible players were dropping lots of cash...it was so unusual that I would remember it anyway...however, about an hour after the bulk of the bad players were gone, the guy to my right says to the dealer "The cards are marked"...small commotion ensues. Turns out the the clubs or spades (???) were all indented along the tops with a sharp fingernail. Just enough to see if you were looking hard....and then everyone kinda glanced at this one very 'lucky' and loud guy. (He was wearing the same hawaiian print shirt as the guy they walked off camera in the tv show) He left soon after.
What does one look for? Anyone else have much experience with cheating? Just curious...
Mark the K
I was in the $20-$40 game at the Mirage when the palming slash hold-out cheat was caught. He had been kicking my [censored], of course, more because he always had a pair than because of any huge hands. I saw the heat from casino management, so I was searching the table intently for cheating activity, and I didn't see it. Neither could management, despite being suspicious of the guy. It was just as slick as on that show. After several large wins over several days, he was finally caught mucking 3 cards at once, after a player asked for a deck change in disgust. (See, there is a reason to ask for deck changes when you're losing. 1/2 :) Cheating exists.
As for what to look for with respect to hold-out cheats, if you taped that show, watch it again and again: arm rubbing, hand sliding between arm or lap and the table, suspicious mucking motion, and sitting in seat next to dealer. His play looked all the world like a whale of a fish, like apparently calling 3 bets cold preflop with Q5 (I would call 3 bets too with AQ5) and calling on the end with the stone cold nuts (I would call with the nuts too if my nut hand were currently up my sleeve and I needed a few moments to extract it.)
Of course, it's a rare event, but that doesn't bring back the few hundred dollars (at least) that I lost to that cheat.
As for collusion, I've presented several examples in the past. Here is one. There is a pair of players at Bellagio who play on the same bankroll. In a $15-$30 game, one open-raised on the button, the small blind called, the other of the pair reraised, and then the first one mucked. Not convinced? Good, I would not be convinced either. However, one of them told me a story about the other one botching up an attempt to collude in one hand they played in Los Angeles. Collusion exists.
As for frequency, it's hard to say, but based on my experience I'm much more concerned about collusion in L.A. than Vegas or San Jose, partially because of the blatant cheating I've seen in L.A., and partially because the heavy density of pros in Vegas and San Jose tend to police the games just like Mason says. I pointed out that strange fold to my wife, whose game I was just watching, and she reported it to management, for example.
-Abdul
I would really like to know more about cheating in LA. The writer I described in a previous post mentioned it at the table once, but wouldn't elaborate. He also said that cp wouldn't publish his opinions.
Brett
One LA cheating incident occurred at the old Crystal Park in $20-$40. Two guys had a player caught in the middle with raises on the flop. On the turn, one bet out, the guy in the middle called, and then the bettor made a blatant hand signal (like "stand" in blackjack) to ask his friend not to raise. On the river, a third suited card hit and he bet out with his nut flush, the guy trapped in the middle called, and then the signaller flashed his flush to his friend so that he could fold his hand (which I saw was top set, since I was sitting next to him.) The signaller is a dealer at the Commerce. The signallee is one of three brothers that share the same bankroll and often play in the same game.
One of that player's brothers was involved in another incident at another LA casino in $40-$80. I wasn't there, but I heard about it from a player who was. The suspect bet out on the turn, and a guy (who is constantly pulling angles and minor cheats) raised with some other players in the pot. It turned out that the angler's raise didn't make any sense, unless it was to help the bettor, though I don't remember the exact hand and board now. A few minutes later, a stack of chips passed from suspect to the angler for no apparent reason, so it was suspected to be payback for the raise.
The brothers played poorly, but played together, and rose from $20-$40 and $40-$80 to $300-$600 in just a couple years. And then one of them won a major tournament.
When the old Crystal Park spread a $60-$120 for the first time, I left the game for fear of collusion and spotters standing behind the players. The game "felt" very wrong, but a feeling is not much to go on. However, two weeks later, the 60-120 game was closed down permanently by management due to collusion by a known team of colluders, which a casino host had brought in and set the game up around.
As I have only mentioned a casino that is no longer in business (not under the same management, anyway), I hope Mason doesn't blow an O-ring about smearing the reputation of that deceased casino.
-Abdul
For your information, when Crystal Park went bankrupt they didn't pay us $700 that they owed for book purchases. The place had a lot of problems and it is probably best that it is under completely different management. By the way, I have only been in it once, and that was just for a few minutes.
I observed this same type of collusion in the 80-160 stud in LV. That is why I stopped playing the game.
Brett
I think you guys that are citing these cheating examples are all smoking something that is a little questionable. If cheating occurs in a Casino it is a very rare event. Certainly any activity that involves money as the prize must be viewed cautiously. But to imply, as Abdul and 3 Bet do, that cheating is wide spread does no one that plays poker any good at all. Mason has stated in the past that it is highly unlikely that someone will be cheated in a Poker Game in a reputable Casino. My experience echo's that view. Why has Malmuth not made the same statement here? Mason, I hope you are not letting that bully Abdul frighten you! I'm sure it's not 3 Bet. Even I'm not afraid of him! Stand up and tell us what you believe is the current state of affairs in casino poker with regards to cheating.
Vince.
You can beat up on an Old Lady playing poker. You can lie. You can imply and misrepresent. You can bush wack. You can steal. You can bust your grandmother in a pot. So how far away is cheating. I am not too worried. You shoot at me, I shoot back.
My position on cheating has not changed. I do not see any evidence of the type of organized collusion that some people in the past have claimed.
I do see an increase in angles which will be bad for the game in the long run. For example, stalling for excessive periods of time in an effort to see what the players behind you will do has become epidemic at middle limit hold 'em in Las Vegas.
This ploy would catch me by the nose.
Post by Mark K. raises an issue, I have wondered about, upon discovering, for example, a 7-club marked. I have always wondered why a person would mark a small card. I know it is done, because I have discovered so many of them. Now, I see Mark's post where he says, in effect, that *all of one suit* were marked. How would such a scheme--marking all of one suit--work in Holdem, or Stud?
(There is absolutely something going-on, with marking smaller cards. I have observed it happening (in Vegas), off and on, for over fifteen years.)
The guy to my right who called the marking to everyone's attention told me that the marking was done by suit, again I think he said clubs were marked here. Although I recall someone else at the table talking about how it was both black suits, marks on the left and right halves of the tops. This would be a huge advantage (right?) to know that your opponent had a club and spade, or no club and no spade... cards were red...and if marked selectively (high cards in the corner) then wow this is an advantage.
I asked the dealer for the deck in this case, he laughed and told me that I could have 10 regular decks, but not this deck. Not suprised.
And I now always touch the tops of the cards when I play to check, I cannot help myself.
Mark the K
Perhaps if ypu know someone has small cards...you also know they don't have big cards.
After all if the big cards are marked, and you were to play mostly powerful starting hands...you'd be holding the marked cards! (Which other observant people might notice and fold against too.)
Thus small marked cards serve to point out the opponent has small cards...or doesn't have big cards. Also, if the small cards are marked the big ones aren't...just as easy to identify...right?
Strikes me as a photo-negative sort of approach or a lame attempt at a spy-counter spy escalation of methodology.
Just a guess.
By the way, how is it that you've discovered so many of them. Are they blantantly marked? And if so, in what manner?
Frank,
The cards were lightly 'indented' with a sharp fingernail...across the top/bottom edges.
I was just curious about what others have seen.
Mark
Its a long drive to Tunica. Past the Gateway Arch, past the New Madrid earthquake museum, past the "throwed roll" cafe, and past Elvis' house.
Park the car, check in, throw the bags in the room, and I'm in the Horseshoe poker room within 15 minutes. 10-20 is full with a list, so I wait in a 4-8 game. Fold the first 9 hands and they start to call a new 10-20 table. I rush over to mark a seat and its perfect. Get the #8 seat, against the wall, under the pictures of the previous WSOP winners. (Maybe Huck will help me) I fold the first 20 hands in a row, 2 players go to the main game, 2 others to 20-40, and another 2 go to a satellite. The game breaks. Having played 30 hands in this room, I now ask for a buffet comp. Leave hat and $400 in chips on table and go eat for 30 minutes---its seafood night. Come back stuffed, and as walking up to the poker room, see that the game is back on. Get a little closer---and theres someone in my chair. The seat I wanted is taken by this guy with silver hair and a black jacket. I look at him and then realize that his picture is on the wall too. Its Jack Keller. Where's my hat? And my $400 in chips? (Note: It did not occur to me to wonder why he is playing 10-20) I walk up to the table, didn't say anything because he is in the hand, and then watch him make a pot sized bet of $500. He is holding 4 cards. Its pot limit Omaha. Floorman shows me where he moved the 10-20 game to.
10-20 is good on a friday night. An inexperienced dealer gets corrected twice by a "new to the table player" young lady who really knows her stuff. Turns out she's a dealer from the Grand and she tells me of the games there. I will encounter her twice more on this trip.
Favorite 10-20 hand of the trip:(yes, I finally played one) Ad Kh in late position--I raise. 4 see the flop,of Kd 3d 7s BB bets and I raise. One other calls. Turn is a small d. BB bets again and I raise again. Just two of us now. River is another small d. BB checks, I bet, and he raises me (!). I reraise, he calls, I show and win. Such an easy game! What could he have had? Qd Qx?
After midnite, I go next door (65 steps) to the Gold Strike to play their 3-6 Omaha. I heard it was great, I read it was wild, but it was nothing special.
Sat 9am---back in the 10-20 (the game is very tight--pot calling kettle, black). Flop a set of 6s against a guy called "Chicago Bob". I bet, he calls. Turn is nothing, I bet, he calls. I say "I just can't shake you". River is a nothing, I bet, he calls, I win. He then rags at me about making an unethical, taunting comment. Could have diffused the situation, but instead say; "If you're from Chicago, you should be used to it". Now he's mad---so I leave with his $60.
Went to the Grand and played 2-5-10-10. Folded the first 45 consecutive hands (my new record). Finally play a couple and lose, fold a few more and leave.
Played a wild 6-12 game at the Gold Strike. The game is great, but I lose big. Two young off duty dealers in the game (recently from East Tennessee State--if there really is such a school) were the highlights. Both smart, knowledgable, aggressive, but surprisingly selective. They hadn't yet read 21st Cent HFAP, or been to the 2+2 site, so I recommended both. One of them tried a check-raise bluff on me. It was well thought out and well executed. QQx on board and he check-raised the turn after limping and check calling. He had me spotted (cautious) as a good target for it too. I just called him down on turn and river. What can I say---Tourist On Tilt. Anyway, two good guys. They both dealt at my table the next day at 10-20 and were good dealers too.
To be continued---
Sunday, played 10-20 most of the afternoon and early evening. Met Linda Johnson--a real nice lady. Met Ken Lambert. Saw Jack Binion walk thru the room. No other celebrity sightings. The tournament players are starting to show up and the games get tougher. Not really tighter-just better quality play. The 20-40 looks looser than the 10-20, but I have seen this many places in the midwest. Is this the same everywhere? It starts to occur to me that I have never been dealt AA in the state of Mississippi. Heard a good line at the table. An older southern guy( with a big drawl and drinking Old Charter) keeps getting drawn out on. He drawls to the dealer: "Honey, you've killed more cotton farmers than the boll weevil".
Went to the pool to relax, and took 21st Cent HFAP. Was in the middle of some "Malmuthian" paragraph (sample: "On the other hand, if there is a reasonable chance that he might have a reraising hand as well as the JT, then this concept may not apply, then again it still may.") when this great looking tall blond walks in. She sheds her outer wear, showing a small orange bikini and gets into the hot tub. I pretend to read, but I'm watching her. She smiles, I smile, and she asks whats that book about. (At this point I'm not really sure) I mumble something about poker and she says "Oh, well I was looking at it because one of those pictures on the back looks like my grandfather".
Late night 3-6 game at the Gold Strike, and theres an interesting discussion between two off duty dealers. One is a superstitious, charm wearing, pyramid card covering, true believer in the power of short term luck. He says: "Go ahead, read all that Sklansky stuff, it won't help" and "Can we get a deck change?" The other is the Grand dealer I met earlier and she turns out to be the "hard bitten realist" and points out all the logic defects.
Monday the tournament starts at noon. I am there a half hour early to watch the show. Its the usual hubbub and commotion. The announcer is trying to get the cash games to quit so they can finish the tourney set up--when--at 11:51 am,the 4-8 game hits the $48,000 bad beat jackpot. One table is 8 handed and the other table has 10. Pandamonium breaks out. The cardroom staff and the tournament staff handle this really well, and the first event starts only a little late. I had played 10-20 with the guy who "won" the hand, and he was just killing time in the 4-8 game. He had AK and the other person had AQ. Flop was AAx, Turn was Q, River was K. Tournament had about 170 entries the first day, about 90 the middle days and 60-ish for the championship event. It seemed well organized with plenty of announcements and no major problems. But what do you expect, when my friend Kathy Hudson is helping to run it. Play 10-20 with the people busting out of the tourney early, and finally get my AA. Raise and win--no flop.
Monday night walking by the Craps pit and realize that every (correctly formatted) trip report needs a sidelight on gambling. Bet $5 on Don't Pass. The shooter gets a point and then 7s out. Do the same thing with the next shooter. The dealers take everyones money and pay me. "I love this game!" Everyone at the table hates me. The stickman pushes me the dice and I stay on NO. Toss two white chips to him for a "two way aces" bet. My come out roll is an 11. I lose my bets and the dealers toke bet. Everyone else at the table wins and yells. I pass the dice and walk away. +$3 for Craps. Cha-ching.
Late night 3-6 at Gold Strike and this game is wild. We can't throw the chips in fast enough. We are pounding the beer rounds faster than the dealers change too.
Its tuesday morning. Check out of the hotel, watch the start of the Omaha tournament, and its time to go home. Head north for about 2 miles and decide to try that 2-5-10-10 at the Grand again. Its a real nothing game with people talking sports, reading the paper, not paying attention, and I'm stuck about $100. New dealer comes in and its the "hard bitten realist" that I had met at the Horseshoe and the Gold Strike. She takes charge of the game and moves it along. The Grand is having some sort of drawing and every player gets a numbered ticket for each hour at the table. She gives everyone a ticket except me and says "Must be present to win--and you won't be here". She deals me a 7s 6s on the button. 5 callers so I call. Flop is a K 9 8 rainbow. One bet and a call to me, so I raise (classic old "free card" bit). Turn is a 5! They check to me and I bet. River is an A. Early bets and I raise. Win most of my money back. So, thanks Karen "the realist" --you're my favorite dealer. Its a long drive home from Tunica.
Poker Recap: 45 hours table time. 22 hours of 10-20 for +$320, but I lost most of it back in lower limit games, and spent most of the rest on beer and a Horseshoe shirt from the gift shop. I played well and concentrated at the 10-20 level and had mostly a colder than average run of cards. Maybe I'll come back during Labor Day and see if I can bluff out Diane B (from Green Bay) in the 20-40.
Postscript: Kinda tired and mopey the rest of the week at work. Show up at the hometown saturday night game and get really hot cards and bet aggressively. +55 big bets in a 5 hour session. Hmmm, enough for a Vegas trip.
Sigh. I really was expecting more of a Mike Paulle type report. You know, event description, entry fee, number of players, final table stats, etc. AT least who won and how much. Oh well, I guess you get what you pay for. Is the shirt one of those Hawaiian-type things?
Brett
Brett,
I'm sorry that I am such a continuing disappointment to you. Just wait till I get in that Bellagio 15-30 game with you----You'll really be disappointed then.
I think Mike Paulle was in the buffet line in Tunica.
Abe
What happened in the tourneys? Who won the main event and how much? What was the structure for the tournaments that you entered?
Your posts were entertaining. I'm waiting for part 3.
Great report, but made me sad again that I couldn't be there. Old Southern gentlemen probably was "Billy Turner" especially if he mumbled more than he talked. He's a love, good for the game, but plays well even when drinking which is most of the time.
Hope you do come back to Tunica for Labor Day! I will be there from Thursday 9/2 through Tuesday morning 9/6. I will be firmly planted in the $20-40 or $10-20 depending upon lineup for 16-18 hours a day and loving every minute of it. Go ahead and *try* a bluff against "Diane from Green Bay". But be prepared to take a few raises. If I am playing I am raising!
Diane
Yeah---Billy. One of the dealers called him Billy. He "spanked up" the game, moved to pot limit, and took his Old Charter with him.
Re: Labor Day. Well, gee Diane; if you're that tough, maybe I'll just stick to 4-8.
Abe- I would be VERY surprised if Billy went to Pot Limit, I have never seen him do that...............but again different games were being spread due to the tournament. Who knows you *may* be right.
I CAN be tough and I can be very easy.............you will just have to figure out yourself which mode I am in at the time. Sometimes I play $4-8 also, so you may not be safe anywhere. Guaranteed though, whatever game I am in, if I am in, I am raising. I don't "call" much unless there is a check raise coming..........Know if I could only consistently figure out when it is time to put the brakes on.
Diane from Green Bay
Any thoughts out there?
Mark Weitzman.
For those who don't know, since he is so low key, Mark Weitzman just may be the best poker player in the world. Several times over the past few years people have come up to me and asked "Who the sucker playing with Chip and Doyle." That's no sucker," I've pointed out. That's Mark Weitzman. He's the little short guy who tends to be quiet and low key, but plays extremely well.
It is a proven fact that Mark Weitzman only has won money because he is lucky at catching cards. i pity the day he finds out that making trips with a pair is not even money and the nut flush does not come every other round. he has Mason completely fooled:).
Can he beat the 2-4 game on Yahoo!
Right now, David Chiu would have to get a lot of votes, because the TOC was of a slow enough and varied format that there was room for a good player to succeed without the usual crushing tourney time constraints.
However, not all of the games were played for the TOC and not all of the cash players qualified for the TOC (not to mention a few that didn't show). My dark horse vote is for O'Neil Longson who is an extremely good and often unnoticed player at all games, live or tourney. Because of his style of play, Eskimo Clark is one of the most dangerous threats to win a tourney in any game (some would also note a dangerous threat to go broke in a live game).
Otherwise, it would depend on the game. In NL, my vote is Eric Seidel or TJ Cloutier, and as shown by the TOC, Doyle Brunson isn't over the hill (Noel Furlong is a good player, but despite winning the WSOP, he didn't play as well as Eric). PL HE would probably see David Ulliot and Lucy Rokach at or near the top of the pack.
In Omaha-8, Scotty Nguyen for the tourneys and Ray Zee for the money. Omaha High: the authors Bob Ciaffone and Reuben Stewart, because not only are they well-known, but they got that way through their Omaha play (Bob C. notes in his book that O'Neil is a top player at this game too, and someone like him who can play limit/NL/PL at a top level, in all games, is indeed one of the most dangerous players in the world).
In Razz, since it isn't played much anywhere, you'd have to give a nod to Linda Johnson for her tournament play and David Sklansky for past performance. Stud-8 is usually considered the domain of "Miami" John Cernuto, but there are more good players out there now than when he won the title.
Limit hold-em would be a tough call, there are so many good players, if you were talking tournaments, it would probably be Barbara Enright, if you were talking a cash game, just based on knowledge, I'd guess either Malmuth or Sklansky.
I'd rather not talk about 7-stud, because I haven't played anyone in years that I felt threatened by -- thus, I couldn't even name someone that I thought was the best 7-stud player, although Chip Reese has long been mentioned as being the best and there's a gaggle of tourney winners out there who would also like to claim that title. One thing I do know, whoever it is, doesn't live in Southern California.
I would have to agree with what many top writers, including Mike Sexton and the 2+2 crowd have often written: the best players aren't the tournament players, they are the side game players. Many of them are pretty much unknown since they don't aspire for fame, they just want the money. Besides shouldn't the best player be decided on who can play all around? How about Johnny Chan? He hasn't played many tournaments of late, but wouldnt you think he would be at least as successful as the top players, if not better? Every time I see him playing its the side game with the highest limits in the room...that has to say something of his skill, not to mention where the money is.
Chan was too easy, yes I agree. While it's true that not all good tournament players are good in side games, most of the names on my list can light it up with anyone in their game. As a counterpoint, I'd like to note that there's a little deception that side-game-only players engage in and that is to believe that they meet the best players. The top tourney players didn't gain their skills merely by playing $20 tourneys on Wednesday nights at the Orleans -- as in all endeavors, being well-rounded in experience pays off.
With the foregoing post Earl has once again proved that he hasn't got a clue.
Nice insightful post, Jimmy who?
In poker, only one thing counts, in the bank (and/or in the "box") large amounts. The full-time professional poker player who has extracted the most amount of money from the poker tables during the past 20 years - and who has successfully held on to that money - should be considered the greatest poker player in the world. I say this because money is ultimately how the game is scored. What good is having hundreds of tournament titles if one is broke (like many big name tournament players are rumored to be)? What good is respect from peers if one can't hold on to his winnings? What good is having the best all around skills if there's no money in the bank to prove it? What good is having a lot of knowledge if that knowledge cannot be used to produce the suff that buys things? Unfortunately, we'll never know who the greatest player is since winnings (and especially losses) are personal secrets. From what I read and from the rumors that I have heard, these guys may be candidates: Chip Reese, Erik Seidel, O'Neil Longson, Ken Flaton, Dan Harringon, Doyle Brunson, Huck Seed, Howard Lederer, David Grey. But we'll never know.
I agree with your premises to a large degree. A couple of caveats, however.
20 years is too long. Some players are great, and have been for the last few years, but just don't have 20 years under their belts. It seems incorrect to completely exclude them. Other players were great for much of the last 20 years, but age has caught up with them. They may be fish today, and for the last few years.
They need to hold onto the money, but only at the poker table. If someone is so good that they can regularly beat the toughest lineups of poker players, but they blow all their money on jewelry, they still would be the best poker player. If they're going broke in other games (e.g., craps, sports betting, etc.), they may not be the best gambler, but still may be the best poker player.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
To be a good poker player, one must also be a good money manager away from the table in addition to being a good player at the table. A poker career does not exist in isolation. It has to be integrated into the other parts of a pro's life. Of course, I perfectly realize that one's behaviors, actions, and results at the table should be given more weight than away from the table factors in determining who the best player is.
The most money in the bank? Thats quite an arbitrary number. What if Johnny Chan averages $300/hour playing, but plays about 500 hours a year because thats all he can get in at the limits he wants? Does that make him a lesser player than Ken Flaton because Skyhawk plays lower limits and tournaments, but still averages say $100/hour playing 2000 hours a year? Skyhawk wins more money in this scenario, but works much harder at it. In the meantime Chan is off making his multitude of investments and running his businesses making money during that 1500 hours he didnt stay at the tables. Skyhawk has more money in the bank directly as a result of poker, but Chan has more money in the bank period! Lets face it this is an impossible question to ask because there is no right answer. One man (or woman) might be better than a certain player, but that doesnt mean the other player might not do things to make him win more money overall. If I make $50/hour playing 20-40 and you make $35/hour doing the same, does that make me a better player if you are playing in the much tougher Vegas games while I am lighting up the easy California games? When it comes down to it there are quite a few great players out there that all can in a way have a piece of this title, but when it comes down to it, there is an elite level of world class players, and all of them are highly successful and get the big money year after year and that is all that matters. If you are best or 7th best, you still are doing quite well financially, at least when just poker is considered.
For the best thais I vote for Tab and another guy people call him water walker. For korean should be jimmy jimmy. I think david chiu is just another lucky player.
Having played with Chiu when he was a dealer in CO, I would have agreed with you a few years ago. But how can you say that someone who has won close to $1,000,000 in the last three or four years is just lucky?
Brett
Yeah I would have to agree. He seems to do so well in limit hold'em events, a field I can't think of too many people being as successful as him in. From the few times I have played against him he seems to be a very patient player at times, then aggressive and attacking at others. Hard to beat someone like that when they mix it up. His sense of knowing where he is at in a hand seems to be very strong and of course the hand at the TOC just reinforces that. Then again it seems most of his success and traits are in the tournaments; so can we really call him the best player? There must be others winning more money than him that few have heard of because they stick to the big money side games.
I am planning a trip to LV for the Superbowl, I have never been to LV but would like to know if there will be some good action at the poker tables? If so dose anyone have any good suggestion for the Superbowl in LV?
Thanks Walleye < ----o---
the poker rooms that have big sports books are the ones that get the best action during big betting events.
Bellagio/Mirage are pretty crazy during superbowl. Unfortunately, when over capacity, the wait lists can be many hours long, and only professionals are willing to wait that long to get into a game. Pick the hours that you play carefully. 4-9 am Saturday and Sunday morning will likely be best. The whole month of January is just great for poker, as merchants and restauarant owners are then loaded with cash and yet their business is slow and they can take some time off. Superbowl weekend is just icing on the cake.
-Abdul
Unless you really want to watch the game, the livest games are during the Super Bowl. Unfortunately I am a lifelong Broncos fan so I haven't been able to play recently, but during SB XXXI I was playing and just keeping an eye on the game because I had no significant wagers on the game and didnt really care either way who won. Most people are paying no attention to poker and its a wonder that they are playing. The pros are off watching the game because they cant get enough betting on the game and all the side bets on the game so its a pretty live open game often with people who are stuck for the weekend and desperate to get even by that night. I was at the Mirage that day and in a 20-40 game that was just wide open. Better yet, after scores, some players felt "richer" since their bets were in better shape and wouldn't you know they played like it, gambling it up. Obviously you can't be that into the game yourself, but I noticed that very little psychological play was going on probably because of the diverted attention. It was lots of bet if I have it, fold if I dont. Its true though, lots of money is around that weekend, but the pros know it and are taking up lots of chairs too. Its also a big time for the pros because play is generally pretty tight to start the year with New Years resolutions plus paying off holiday bills and this is about the time the games begin getting back to normal so the pros seem a little hungrier by then too. Worst thing is that with the crowding, you can't really jump into many games looking for a good one since the list for another can be long.
Hiya,
I was in LV a few years ago during the SuperBowl.
I am not a sports bettor, only one in my family who isn't, but I could not believe the number of bets everyone at the table had on each and every crazy prop...you know: Under/over on the first qtr, how long it would take to play the first set of downs (just kidding)....etc etc etc.
The poker game was very crazy, people were going nuts on the game, the superbowl, not the poker game.
Mark
Does anyone know what the sailing schedule of the Chicago area riverboats is (especially those in Indiana)? I always get sick and start steaming when the boats move. I asked the concierge at the Empress about this, but she just gave me the boarding schedule, which obviously doesn't correspond to the actual times the boat is in motion.
Greetings:
Due to the fact that a new casino will eventually be opened a hop, skip, and a jump from Chicago O'Hare, Illinois changed the requirements for cruising... Hence, there are now none. Soo, good luck!!
Joe
Get sick? Start steaming? If you get sick, from being on one of those "cruises", the auto or bus in which you go to the boat will make you violently ill. So you will never make it to the boat.
Hey, I don't play cards in the bus or car, either.
I will be in Colorado Springs next week and am interested in playing 3-6 to 10-20 hold'em.
Any recommendations?
Thanks.
You should start planning some other activities.
Brett
The only casino poker near the Springs is in the former mining town of Cripple Creek, maybe an hour out of town (I've never been their so ask locals). Unfortunately, your lowest limit exceeds that allowed by the state's regretable "limited gaming" act, which caps all bets at $5. So they play $2-5 hold'em (one $2 blind, 2-5 on all rounds, 5-raise max).
10-20 at the med club....6-12 at the hopsing...ask around in CC.
Posted by MICHAEL IP address 206.141.246.204 on August 08, 1999 at 16:32:16:
THIS REALLY CAN MAKE YOU EASY MONEY!! IT WORKS!!! BUT YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW IT TO A LETTER FOR IT TO WORK!!!! A little while back, I was browsing through newsgroups, just like you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you could make thousands of dollars within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00! So I thought," Yeah, right, this must be a scam", but like most of us, I was curious, so I kept reading.
Anyway, it said that you send $1.00 to each of the 6 names and address stated in the article. You then place your own name and address in the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article in at least 200 newsgroups. (There are thousands) No catch, that was it. So after thinking it over, and talking to a few people first, I thought about trying it. I figured what have I got to lose except 6 stamps and $6.00, right? Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! Then I invested the measly $6.00. Well GUESS WHAT!!... within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon, but the money just kept coming in. In my first week, I made about $25.00. By the end of the second week I had made a total of over $1,000.00! In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it's still growing. This is now my fourth week and I have made a total of just over $42,000.00 and it's still coming in rapidly. It's certainly worth $6.00, and 6 stamps, I have spent more than that on the lottery!!
Let me tell you how this works and most importantly, why it works....also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope to prevent thievery. Next, place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name and address, and a $1.00 bill. What you are doing is creating a service by this. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses:
#1)Grant P.O.Box 703394 New Smyrna Beach, FL 32170
#2) Andy 970 Worton Park Drive Mayfield Village, OH 44143
#3) Emod #9 1274 emery place v7j1r3 N. Van B.C. Canada
#4) Michael 1521 Cambridge Drive Kalamazoo, MI 49001 USA
#5) Anita 49 Forest Lake Rd Hamilton, New Zealand
#6) Ray 71 Aurora Tce Hamilton, New Zealand
STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc...) and add YOUR Name as number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at least 200 newsgroups. (I think there are close to 24,000 groups) All you need is 200, but remember, the more you post, the more money you make! ---DIRECTIONS -----HOW TO POST TO NEWSGROUPS------------ Step 1) You do not need to re-type this entire letter to do your own posting. Simply put your cursor at the beginning of this letter and drag your cursor to the bottom of this document, and select 'copy' from the edit menu. This will copy the entire letter into the computers memory. Step 2) Open a blank 'notepad' file and place your cursor at the top of the blank page. From the 'edit' menu select 'paste'. This will paste a copy of the letter into notepad so that you can add your name to the list. Step 3) Save your new notepad file as a .txt file. If you want to do your postings in different sittings, you'll always have this file to go back to. Step 4) Use Netscape or Internet explorer and try searching for various newsgroups (on-line forums, message boards, chat sites, discussions.) Step 5) Visit these message boards and post this article as a new message by highlighting the text of this letter and selecting paste from the edit menu. Fill in the Subject, this will be the header that everyone sees as they scroll through the list of postings in a particular group, click the post message button. You're done with your first one!
Congratulations...THAT'S IT! All you have to do is jump to different newsgroupes and post away, after you get the hang of it, it will take about 30 seconds for each newsgroup! **REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL MAKE!! BUT YOU HAVE TO POST A MINIMUM OF 200** That's it! You will begin reciving money from around the world within days! You may eventually wany to rent a P.O.Box due to the large amount of mail you will receive. If you wish to stay anonymous, you can invent a name to use, as long as the postman will deliver it. **JUST MAKE SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT.**
Now the WHY part: Out of 200 postings, say I receive only 5 replies (a very low example). So then I made $5.00 with my name at #6 on the letter. Now, each of the 5 persons who just sent me $1.00 make the MINIMUM 200 postings, each with my name at #5 and only 5 persons respond to each of the original 5, that is another $25.00 for me, now those 25 each make 200 MINIMUM posts with my name at #4 and only 5 replies each, I will bring in an additional $125.00! Now, those 125 persons turn around and post the MINIMUM 200 with my name at #3 and only receive 5 replies each, I will make an additional $626.00! OK, now here is the fun part, each of those 625 persons post a MINIMUM 200 letters with my name at #2 and they each only receive 5 replies, that just made me $3,125.00!!! Those 3,125 persons will all deliver this message to 200 newsgroups with my name at #1 and if still 5 persons per 200 newsgroups react I will receive $15,625,00! With a original investment of only $6.00! AMAZING! When your name is no longer on the list, you just take the latest posting in the newsgroups, and send out another $6.00 to names on the list, putting your name at number 6 again. And start posting again. The thing to remember is, do you realize that thousands of people all over the world are joining the internet and reading these articles everyday, JUST LIKE YOU are now!! So can you afford $6.00 and see if it really works?? I think so... People have said, "what if the plan is played out and no one sends you the money? So what! What are the chances of that happening when there are tons of new honest users and new honest people who are joining the internet and newsgroups everyday and are willing to give it a try? Estimates are at 20,000 to 50,000 new users, every day, with thousands of those joining the actual internet. Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will work.
Sincerely, Michael
As I said in the other section "PLEASE REMOVE THIS POST".
REMOVE THIS SHIT ASAP!
I was just wondering if anyone had an opinion about D.R. Sherer's "No Fold 'Em Hold 'Em". Good/bad/ugly? Thanks for any feedback.
James Flames
James,
You may want to power search RGP using www.deja.com. I do recall a few reviews and they tended to be negative.
Regards,
Rick
I think this book is hard to review because its definitely focused on one type of game. This book might be more in the genre of Lee Jones and winning at lower limits. Any expert players or even middle limit players probably won't be too impressed because it isnt often that you have to deal with 6 and 7 handed pots like the book describes. Some good insight though if you are stuck like many of us in California, trying to make aces hold up with 6-way capped before the flop action. Much of it might be a bit simplistic, but it has some basic theory that you can use to approach situations that often come up in very loose games.
The book is pretty useless.
Someone mentioned it might be like Lee Jones' book for CA low limit. Lee's book provides a much more complete foundation to start playing in these games while No Foldem is mostly just some wild ideas that are IMO just wrong.
The only possible value is that you can have a complete collection of what some other players might be thinking about and also it is humorous to read in some places.
David
I didn't like the book either. Thus I don't recommend it.
New in town need to know the best places to play in san diego area. Thanks....
I moved away from SD at the end of last year, so my info is outdated. However, I strongly preferred Oceans 11 when I lived there. They have a variety of 3-6 games (HE, Omaha8, crazy pineapple, HE hi/lo), 1-4 stud hi/lo, and HE at limits of 4-8 kill, 9-18, 20-40, and PL.
I hear they now often have 40-80 HE (and don't have the PL game anymore), and used to have a 15-30 stud hi/lo game. It is a nice room, decent cheap food, and friendly employees.
Also recommended is the Village Club in Chula Vista. Small room with fewer games to choose from, and a limit of 8 players per table, but friendly. Also, I hear you can now play HE at the Lucky Lady cardroom in SD itself (used to be limited to lowball only games). I hear they have the PL HE game now.
Hopefully, John Feeney will respond, as he is still there and knows IT ALL.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Oceans11 is a great place to play, all limits from 3/6 to pot limit. (Oceanside)
The various Indian Casinos, mainly Viejas, offer a lot of action around the clock, but I personally don't support Indian Gaming, and don't think others should. (Alpine)
Well most people could care less about supporting Indian gaming, but I personally try to support Oceans 11 and the whole statewide ban on smoking. The one thing I have noticed is that since all the Indians have the other forms of gambling that card rooms dont, the action is usually much better at regular card rooms. Just like in Vegas, the real gamblers would rather just get it out there into a slot and get that fix as quick as possible. Its like slots are a drug that is sent to you with an IV, while poker is a drug that you have to take orally with meals. Therefore, the action isnt quite as good, and sometimes you find your game filled with seniors out to eat the buffet so stick to Oceans 11 unless you live in East County.
Well, I'm not sure how I feel about having someone whose e-mail address is "grimreaper" coming to town, but...
Greg's and the other posts cover most of what you need. I'll just add that the Oceans-11 40-80 game is now spread Wednesday through Friday, with additional days likely to come as it solidifies. The reports of the demise of the O-11 pot-limit game appear to have been premature. They've shifted it to the Lucky Lady a few times, but it was going at O-11 the last couple of days. Don't know more than that.
Lucky Lady has hold'em at limits up to 6-12 daily. As of a couple of weeks ago they were also spreading 20-40 on Wednesday and Friday.
I don't go to the Indian casinos because they allow smoking, but I know there's still a fair amount of poker at Sycuan and Viejas. Sycuan only has limits through about 12-24, I think. And Viejas now struggles to get a 20-40, if it does get it. This is undoubtedly due to the availability of non-smoking cardrooms and poor management of the Viejas Cardroom. (e.g., when you drop 4$ in your small games, it's tough for players to win enough to build bankrolls and move up the limits. Refusals to spread a second game without *tons* of waiting players, while four silent props sat in the main game was another problem in my experience.)
John Feeney
I would also vote for Oceans 11 and the Village club.
Just FYI --- Pechanga is the only indian casino that is non-smoking and spreads a decent 6-12 game on weekends (but no high limits)
Has anyone written an essay or anything interesting on how to play at a table where Overs are being used (whether or not you are a participant)?
its been discussed on the forum maybe you can find it in the archives(happy hunting)
basically
put big bettors on your right you can play tighter because of smaller ante draws may cost more on later rounds think about how to knock out smaller players with good hands keep smaller players in with draws dont play overs if the big bettors are on your left if you are not a participent you probably are not as good as the others playing and may be better off in another game.
thanks for the input....although it looks like it is basically impossible to search the archives as there is no easy mechanism to search. but thanks anyways.
Welcome to the impossible.
Paul
Messages Posted or Last Modified Between Jan 1998 and Dec 1998
Containing Any of the Keywords: overs
8 of 291 Messages Displayed
Re: Overs reference and San Diego tip, was kills and stuff, was Tucson Poker (Desert Diamond) carlos -- Thursday, 2 July 1998, at 11:10 a.m. Re: Overs reference and San Diego tip, was kills and stuff, was Tucson Poker (Desert Diamond) Greg Raymer (FossilMan) -- Wednesday, 1 July 1998, at 9:32 p.m. Re: Overs reference and San Diego tip, was kills and stuff, was Tucson Poker (Desert Diamond) John Feeney -- Wednesday, 1 July 1998, at 9:06 p.m. Re: Overs reference and San Diego tip, was kills and stuff, was Tucson Poker (Desert Diamond) carlos -- Wednesday, 1 July 1998, at 7:23 p.m. Re: Overs reference and San Diego tip, was kills and stuff, was Tucson Poker (Desert Diamond) John Feeney -- Wednesday, 1 July 1998, at 4:32 p.m. Re: kills and stuff, was Tucson Poker (Desert Diamond) carlos -- Tuesday, 30 June 1998, at 8:09 p.m. Re: kills and stuff, was Tucson Poker (Desert Diamond) John Feeney -- Tuesday, 30 June 1998, at 3:17 a.m. Re: kills and stuff, was Tucson Poker (Desert Diamond) Jim Geary -- Monday, 29 June 1998, at 4:58 p.m.
Good job brother Paul. I think though that that thread may only have had a brief reference to overs in it. (Don't remember though.) Anyway, there's more. Below is a link to a post I wrote about it. I must say though that Ray packed an amazing amount of info about it into his brief post above. I'm almost persuaded to drop capitals and periods. I know there have been some other good posts on it too. I seem to recall at least one by Louie Landale.
John Feeney
John,
You're right I think Ray was a compacter in one of his past life's. It's funny you give a problem that you think will take a whole page three sentences later he whips out his answer and it sometimes takes me weeks to decipher. But that why he's who he is.
Brother Paul
I want to warn others who, like me, trust 2Plus2 publications because of the awesome quality of Mason and Slansky.
Poker Myth and Poker Fact is a waste of money. It has no, not one, none, redeeming qualities. It leverages the reputation of 2+2 with out paying off on the quality that comes with their pricing.
What a waste.
Comments welcome
The title of the book is POKER FARCE AND POKER TRUTH
I published PokerFarce and PokerTruth simply because I thought it was unusual material and that I liked some of it, especially the history, a lot. It is a very unusual book, definitely drags in a few spots, will not teach you to play poker better, and gets very mixed reactions from readers. The book was an experiment for us and is part of our program to let some unknown authors have a chance. The jury is out as to whether we will ever do another one like it. But I'm glad it is part of our Two Plus Two family even if it does poorly for us.
Aside from the style being a less than smooth in spots, overused references to "2-7"and the WWII pieces not being as careful with choosing poker terms as I thought they should, Iliked the book. It was very amusing in parts, and I'm glad I bought it for an Amtrak trip I had.
I think the price tag comes with the territory - gambling books which are not "how to" books tend to be pretty expensive, as the audience is pretty narrow and the costs of producing books are mostly fixed.
Con Jel Co published "blackjack diary" and, though the appendix has all the how-to's the same as every other BJ book, the point of the book was providing some humanity to a genre full of books of logic, math and how-to's (not to mention books filled with erroneous nonsense).
The same thing happened to that book - for weeks the free pages on BJ21 were full of people ripping on the book for what it was. There was no deception in the sale of either book - they were not strategy books.
I would welcome more books like "Poker Farce" - but I would like to see the quality of the writing somewhat improved - this is one of the books (though not by Hemmingway) we can afford from all the money the strategy books make us. Thus they should be deserving of an "A" from an English teacher. Nonetheless, I am happy I bought it.
Anyway, everything else from Two Plus Two is first class all the way.
I sure am glad you guys are around.
I have been playing in the 6-12 HE game at the Oaks in Emeryville, a game I find not great, but beatable. I would like to move up, but the next step is 15-30 there. I can not readily observe that game and was told it is difficult. Can anyone comment on the quality of that game?
Horrible game most of the time...avoid it except on Friday nights, and then of course the list is long. None of the games at the Oaks are really any good compared to what you can find at other Bay Area clubs. Just proves my point about how the lowest raked game is almost always the toughest because it just seems to draw out all the tight players, and there is no doubt the Oaks has the cheapest games in the area, if not California. I would say the 15-30 at Bay 101 is usually about on par with a 6-12 at the Oaks as far as action and profitability goes. If you want to step up, go up to San Pablo and play the 8-16, thats a much better game than the 6-12 Oaks game.
I second WildBill here. Another game you might want to consider is the 9-18 at Lucky Chances in Colma.
carlos
funny, last week i played there for the first time in a year (i've been going to colma), and it seemed absolutely incredible. i plan on going again.
Well I will say that they have lots of good stud games there, but I personally would rather play HE. The 9-18 stud that goes occasionally there is reputed to be one of the best games you can find. And of course even the tightest games can run into an action period on a weekend night if the conditions are right. Just find a game with a drunk or two in it and the Oaks does have those around on some Friday and Saturday nights.
Where do I (or even is it possible to) play holdem in Calgary?
You can play at the Elbow Casino (3-6, 10-20 on weekends), there is a daily 20-40 game at the Cash Casino, and there is a private poker club as well. I don't know the name of the club, but if you played at the Cash Casino I'm sure one of the 20-40 players could give it to you.
I've heard that the new casino in North East Calgary (ABS?) acquired a lot of the low-limit poker traffic. However, that was many months ago, so I'm not sure if it is still true.
Couple seats left. Let me know if your interested in a friendly game.
Andy
andy_dep@hotmail.com
I am curious about anyone's thoughts about living in Vegas. It seems like a pretty exciting place...any ideas?
I had the pleasure of staying in Las Vegas for a 2 month period from June 97-August 97. I played poker (just HE) for a "living" during that time and stayed at Budget Suites (behind Stardust). I am a Canadian and 25 yo and at that time in my life it was perfect for me. I was "lucky" that I came out almost even for the entire duration. I spent too much having "fun" and did not take my poker winnings and reinvest them. If I had enough discipline then maybe I`d had come out ahead further.
I guess you could say I got caught up in the glitter. It is exciting and I think if you consider yourself a good player and you have a sufficiant bankroll then I`d say go for it! However, I would caution that you would be entering a sea of sharks and their are only so many fish to eat!
I`d be interested in hearing you final outcome. In the meantime, if you`d like further information of a more specific nature please just ask!
I would love to live in Las Vegas. However, my wife disagrees, so that is pretty much the end of the story.
The nice places to live in Vegas are Summerlin and Green Valley. Suburbia. I prefer to live in a place where I can walk to the post office (there are basically none in Vegas, BTW), walk to the grocery, and walk to restaurants. Either a big city or small village suits me. In Vegas, you drive everywhere, and even if there were some place close enough to walk to, you'd die before you got back home. Driving isn't pleasant either, as your car soon hits 200 degrees inside if you park it in the sun.
The weather was really brutal the first couple of years I lived here. 120 degrees for several weeks in the summer, and then within a week it was like 45 degrees for the next six months. But this summer I am actually enjoying it, with temperatures typically around 100 degrees and a slight touch of humidity. I'm not sure whether I have acclimated or whether the weather is just better this summer. I'm trying to get my laptop working again so that I can do my email and netnews out by the pool. That should improve my quality of life tremendously.
The traffic has been absolutely horrible, and note that I come from L.A. and San Francisco. I'd take L.A. over Vegas traffic any day. At least in L.A., you know if you leave at 12 pm or 12 am you won't have a problem going where you want to go. Vegas has tons of construction and tons of drunks, a deadly combination. It's very common for me to witness accidents. This should improve as the major construction comes to an end.
Basically, I don't like Vegas as a place to live, but it's growing on me, though that just might be because of the recent moderate weather.
-Abdul
Don't worry Abdul, it's only because it hasn't been 120 for a week straight this summer.
Vegas is the worst place I've ever lived. I don't like it for many of the reasons that Abdul mentions. Here are a few others; the most hideous architecture ever seen, the unbroken chain of Awful Chain Fast-Food Stores on every major street, the aggressive, hostile drivers, the air pollution, the never-ending sounds of jet engines, highways, cars turned stereos, the surveillance helicopters hovering close to the rooftop with search lights on in the middle of the night at least once every ten days (and I live in a good neighborhood!) Basically, I try to NEVER leave the house!
Good points: It's cheap to live here. Your car doesn't rust prematurely.
Jessica,
I can't wait to get there now I'm down a quart of aggression, my camera is loaded for hideousness arch, and bad drivers I'M THE WORST AND FASTEST from Boston. Thank you for enlightening me on the best parts. The bad parts I like to spend money and I hope my car rusts so I can get a new one because I'm sick of looking at it.
Paul
ps:I also love tropical sweat.
you have not seen weather until you come to Baton Rouge.98 deg 100percent humidity and NO chance of rain! but we do have the softest water anywhere .a bar of soap lasts three days . and the bad beat jackpot topped 70k today
Moses,
I am thinking of going the extended stay route at the Stardust. I am familiar with the type of motel.
My question is, it is advertised as being less than a half mile from the strip.I will not have an automobile, and my question is:
that half mile walk, looks like a very small street on the map, did it appear to be safe for walking, what kind of neighborhood is it. Well lighted, etc.?
Thanks for any info you can give me.
Bob
I am assuming you are at the place on Industrial, the Budget Suites I believe it is. That area isn't the best, nor is it the worst. Generally not much going on there at night except for a few strip clubs around there and during the day lots of little businesses around there. You are pretty much next to a very nice mall and the Frontier. Its much nicer area than where most of the Budget Suites are. If all you want to do is stuff on the Strip or Downtown you will be fine without a car because the buses run all hours on the Strip, but I would think you will get sick of it all before long if that is all your world becomes.
I like to visit and play once in a while but I sure do have a problem with the dry air. I order two bottles of water every time the waitress comes by and I'm still dry in every orifice. It is the only time I can feel my contact lenses. And I usually go in the winter! Does anyone have any suggestions in how to keep from drying out?
Regards,
Rick
P.S. I concede this a pretty vapid post.
I've never live in Las Vegas, but I can recall from the coverage of the Gulf War that they instructed the soldiers to drink water beyond the point where they no longer felt thirsty.
You are not alone....I lived in El Paso Tx foe 27 years and when I went to Vegas I had no problems but for the last 10 years I have lived in Florida and when I went to Vegas ( Aug 5-8) withen 2 days I was suffering from noes bleeds (lots of nasel hemmoriging also) ... so next time I will take some kind of nasel spray to keep my nasel passages moist
I recently started playing online, posted a previous message and got very helpful info. from several of you. My own experiences seemed to prove to me that it was legitimate and there was no cheating - mainly because I've won at both planetpoker and deltacasino. I found planetpoker more competitive and not as friendly, and have settled on deltacasino.com as being my type of card room. I'm wondering now, specifically, if either Mason or David have played either or both sites, and what their feelings are on playing poker online for real money. I have read most all of your books, and follow your advise pretty much, and would like to have your input on this new medium as well. Also, I am wondering if you think online poker is just a "flash in the pan", or the wave of the future? Thanking you both in advance.
Hi Kelly,
I was interested in playing too, but I noticed (on PP at least) that you pay 6% for using a credit card for your stake. This is a lot to give up, but I wasn't eager to go to the trouble and delays of mailing 'cash'...
what did you do? What do you think? Is delta better? (I own a business, we take credit cards, I do not pay MC 6%, much less...
Mark
Delta doesnt charge the 6% and also no cashout fee like planetpoker and other casinos. I also found it much friendlier, and the games are usually really soft
The games appear to be legitimate. My brief experience with online poker has found the games to be fairly tight, not at all like low stakes california, but similiar to what one would found in Iowa or North Dakota on a weeknight.
Delta Casino has few players, often a 3/6 game isn't available or is short handed. Planet Poker is much busier, but they charge a 6% fee to bring new money into the game.
Both places have a very reasonable rake: $1 is taken out as the pot reaches $20, $40, and $60. This beats the 10% to $3 midwest rake where the dealer breaks chips into quarters and grabs money out of the pot from the get go.
You gotta love the no dealer toke, no jackpot setup.
What is the cashout fee? I didn't read anything about this on either the planet poker or their associated e-cash sites. Thanks.
i was told there was a $5 cashout fee by many of the players who have cashed out
no cashout charge on PP -- and the check arrives in a few days.
WRONG new bank PP uses now charges $15 per cashout just did it
Is that new? -- they never charged me. Did you get a wire or check? How did they charge you -- you asked for 400 and they sent you 385?
pp has some strange "random" flops dealt. 4 out of 5 flushto cards come on board about 20 times per day per table, making k-qs,or k-js much weaker...any Axo grows tremendously in value. Many plays at the 5-10 and 10-20 are completely illogical, my results have been mixed. I'm not sure that I believe that the deals are random. Several times I have been dealt same rank cards(perhaps different suits) consecutively. This is a daily occurence.
PP gives away in the FAQ the source code for their shuffling routine. randomize is a function that generates a pseudo-random seed based on the computer server time expressed in 1/100 sec. A given seed gives a given deck. The unknown is thus the computer server time. Knowing the city where PP operates one can find out the hour and the minute. After seeing his hole card and the flop one can find out the exact time (60 times 100 tries). At that point it is a piece of cake: the turn card, the river card and each player card is known. Hard to believe? Write a program that sets the clock, finds a seed and generates 10 "random numbers". Run the program a few time. Each time the same "random numbers" will come out. I hope PP one day get awake.
So in other words, it is possible to figure out what all the cards are at the table just by finding out the exact server time?
... and the server time can be deduced.
do a tracert, the previous post takes some progrmming skill. It did dawn on me that analyzing the code with a say a simple java applet...(they give it to you....modify it slightly) and crack it....perhaps this already happens with more computer literate individuals.....It does add support to some of my suspicions......perhaps this would explain illogical playat higher limits....such as a player with A-2 off in early position calling a preraised flop....a checkraised turn,,,and drawing out on a the river against KJs nut flush......this truly happened to me.
You don't need much programming skill.
Here an example in cpp.
// Compiler: Borland V4.0
#include #include #include void main()
{
struct time t;
gettime(&t);
// Round off the time (for example 10:31:22 gives always 10:00:00)
t.ti_min = 0;
t.ti_sec = 0;
t.ti_hund = 0;
settime(&t);
cout << int(t.ti_hour) << ":" << int(t.ti_min) << ":"
<< int(t.ti_sec) << "." << int(t.ti_hund) << endl;
randomize();
// Gives each hour the same 10 numbers
cout << "Ten random??? numbers from 0 to 99" << endl << endl;
for(i=0; i<10; i++)
cout << rand() % 100 << endl;
}
Can Anyone tell me the Limits, Antes, Bring-ins, and rakes for 7 card stud spread at the Bay 101 club over SF Bay way?
I may be taking a trip over there and was curious.
Also, anyone have a feel for the percentage of pro's in the room and and the tightness/looseness of the general crowd?
CA has a reputation for "wild" games so I was curious.
I WAS PLAYING IN A POT-LIMIT TOURNAMENT ANTES WERE 1200 MY STACK STOOD AT 6000, BLINDS WILL HIT ME HAND AFTER NEXT I AM HOLDING AQ, I RAISE IN TO FIVE TIGHT PLAYERS AS FIRST MAN IN.
THE TOURNAMENT STAGE HAS REACHED THE SEMI-FINAL BUT THERE IS NO PRIZE MONEY FOR JUST MAKING THE LAST TABLE. I WOULD WELCOME ANY ADVICE OR CRITICISM ON THIS PLAY.
MANY THANKS
PETER,
Peter:
I don't play pot limit but I like this play in front of 5 tight players. You're essentially gambling that no one has a big pair or AK, and that seems safe 6-handed when you have an AQ. Your real concern should be smaller pairs, and I doubt that anyone but a nearly all-in player can justify calling with one (or is there something I'm missing about PL?). A call from any other hand means you'll either suffer a suck-out or win a lot of chips; not bad. The other caveat I can think of would be the presence of a creative bluffer behind you. AQ can't stand a lot of heat.
(P.S. Unless your vision requires it, please turn off the "caps lock" function on your keyboard as upper case is difficult to read and it looks as if you are shouting).
....would he get a Dolly Lammer?
.
Hello,
I am going to be in L.A. this weekend and was wondering if anyone knows if there are satellites being spread for the Legends of Poker tournament at the Bicycle Club.
Thanks,
Carlos
I don't "know" that there are any satellites. However, I'd be willing to bet most of bankroll that there are.
Good Luck, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks for you response Greg,
I wanted to get some exposure on No-Limit HE. So maybe getting into a couple of satellites and if I do well, then I'll give it a shot at the tourney. Maybe this should go on the strategy forum, but should I play the satellites pretty agressively? As if I were at the final table of a tourney. Or are the players fairly loose and pots are contested multi-way and you might need to show the best hand?
Any thoughts (or advise) appreciated,
Thanks, Carlos
You will find all types of satellites, so you just need to pay attention and see what you end up sitting in.
However, I suspect that a typical satellite at the Legends will have 2-6 very good players, so don't expect to see too many folks giving their chips away. You will see both tight and loose play, and lots of aggressive play. Remember, there is only 1 winner in a satellite, so don't be folding just because you will survive a little longer. Only the winner gets paid, so coming in second is no good. Also, reaching heads-up play with very few chips doesn't give you much chance of winning, so take (appropriate) risks at any time.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
About every 20 minutes in the satellite area fr/ 2 PM on. They play the game of that night plus limit and N/L HE satellites all the time. I played in several last week and won one. You get tournament lammers and a little cash. When you get down to two players most of the time a deal is made to split the proceeds. Lots of players are playing lots of satellites.
I will be visiting New Orleans (my wife has a conference) in November. I was wondering about Poker in New Orleans. Any comments please would be welcome....
Also, I will be going to a conference myself with easy 4 day weekend in September stopover in LV. I would love to know where a 4-8 through 10-20 HE and O8 player can get a nice room comp. I know I can get a nice low rate at the luxor or orleans, but they rarely had a 10-20 (if at all) when I was last in town...will bellagio or mirage comp poker players to rooms?
(If I convince my brother the bigtime sports bettor to go too, then we both get a really nice comp somewhere, but then he bets min $5k max $25k. per bet!)
thanks in advance,
Mark
N.O. poker took it on the chin yesterday with the closing of the treasure chest's poker room .another slot victim,that leaves bally's and harrah's should be open by the time you visit,casino rouge (baton Rouge's only poker room 1hr nw of big easy)is revamping their room but losig a table .gulf coast poker is fading,shreveport has best La. action! there is pot limit he & omaha hi only action in lake charles.i play all La. rooms and the grands in biloxi\gport .
I just started playing at the Players Island in lake Charles. Cant beleive how loose the 10-20 hold'em is. Loosest I've ever seen. Anyways, if you see a young kid there (21 years old)on the weekends, its probably me.
Nagurski,
Thanks.
How far is this from NO?
Mark
I'm not really sure. I come from Houston so I wouldnt know. If I had to guess I'd say about 2-3 hours.
Which is generally better there at the 10-20 or 15-30 level - holdem or stud?
Is there still a NL live game on Tuesday nights? If so, is it still 5-5 blinds, $100 buy-in?
Are there any Omaha-8 games higher than the 5-10 full kill? Are they worth playing (or are they too tight to be profitable like the 5-10 sometimes is)?
J. wrote:
>Which is generally better there at the 10-20 or 15-30 level >- holdem or stud?
HE is seldom spread higher than 10-20 with a half-kill. It can vary markedly. Last Tuesday night it was the best I had ever seen. Other times, it has been TIGHT. I don't play much stud yet, but am told that the games are seldom worse than pretty good, and are often very good.
>Is there still a NL live game on Tuesday nights? If so, is >it still 5-5 blinds, $100 buy-in?
The PL and/or NL games haven't been a go for quite a while, I believe (but I don't get there on Tues. very often). There was a 3 name list for PL last Tues., and nothing the time befoe that (a few weeks ago). I wish it would go more often.
>Are there any Omaha-8 games higher than the 5-10 full kill? >Are they worth playing (or are they too
>tight to be profitable like the 5-10 sometimes is)?
Except during the major tournaments twice a year, I have never seen Omaha8 higher than 5-10 at FW (nor at Mohegan Sun). Also, I have never seen or heard of PL or NL at MS. They do have a regular 20-40 HE game which is often very good.
Come to FW for FARGO on Oct. 1-3, and I imagine there will be PL and higher HE and omaha8 games going. If you want to attend more officially, search deja.com for posts about FARGO in the rec.gambling.poker newsgroup and sign up.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think the 15-30 stud game has the best chance for being "good". The 10-20 holdem maybe good but is often bad. There are at least four regulars who make their living off that game. And another four to six while not pro, are very tough.
The 5-10 Omaha is tighter than a frogs butt. The players are tough and knowledgable.
I play two or three times a month and find the 5-10 holdem with a kill to be better than the 10-20. The 10-20 stud can be o.k.
I am planning a trip through Montana and the Dakotas and was hoping someone could give me some info on the area poker rooms. Thanks.
Randy
Randy. Even the women play good where you are going.
Does anyone out there have an idea what the legalities of opening a legitimate card room is? Things like licenses and bond money etc.?
where are you thinking? I know most of California
Kelly,
It's pretty tongue in cheek at this point. Don't expect to see it any time soon.
However, I was curious as to the regulatory issues. If it's like liquor licenses in most states, the truly prohibitive issue is the cost of the license!
However, if it's not as costly it would give me something th "shoot for".
:-)
State licenses in California are not all that much. Each city/township has their own license which can vary. They each also have their own rules and regulations re. hours of operation, games allowed, number of tables allowed etc. If you do the proper market research, there is money to be made. A rule of thumb I have found is that it takes 8 game hours a day to meet expenses ($3/hand drop) - not including wages. When you are dealing in a cash business, remember that you can't trust your own mother, and it turns into a 24/7 job for the owner. Also, you have to have food and beverage available around the clock, and even the guy winning big $$$ will grumble about paying for anything. Its a tough way to make a living, unless you really do your homework and land in the right place at the right time. If I can help in any way, feel free to email me at kellyday@netgenie.com
A lot of us posters are pushing middle age and not up with the latest and greatest in technology. But even some of us middle aged guys like music. I would guess that for most of us, the stereo is in the living room, the computer in the den or spare bedroom, and you can't crank the stereo up because the wife is watching TV or it will disturb the neighbors and so on.
Anyway, I've heard about MP3 and so on but found some of the older software troublesome and most of the legal web sites devoted to substandard music and the illegal sites focusing on a target audience of about fifteen years of age (e.g., some old fart like me asked on a MP3 newsgroup where they could get a copy of songs by Sara Brightman (she sang pop opera with Bocelli on the final song in Romanza and has a stunning voice); anyway, the smart alect kid who answered said go to www.buyitatarecordstore.com. Don't go there if you are pushing middle age - you will feal really old.
PC magazine raved about the recently released MusicMatch Jukebox 4.1 so I downloaded the free version from MP3.com. I have to say it is teriffic. One thing you can do is convert your favorite songs in your CD collection to MP3 format. An average song would take about 4 megabytes so filling the jukebox with a hundred or so songs shouldn't burden most modern hard drives. The difference between the free version and $30 upgrade is that the upgrade will convert the files using a higher sampling rate which results in a better sound at the cost of file size and speed of recording.
Getting one item makes you want another. I ordered the older but highly rated "Soundworks" three piece computer speaker set from Cambridge Soundworks (www.hifi.com) which just dropped in price to $100 (it is still $150 in stores to the best of my knowledge). If anyone is interested, I'll let you know how I like it in a week when it comes in.
Once again, this was just for fun.
Regards,
Rick
I don't know much about Music Match Jukebox, but I currently use Winamp to play my MP3's and AudioCatalyst to convert tracks to MP3 format. I love them both. The Winamp is free and has several cool features. My favorite is that it lets you keep multiple play lists, which I have organized according to the mood I am in. The AudioCatalyst costs to use, but I think it's worth it.
As far as your experience with the newsgroup, I had the exact opposite experience. I found that all the songs on the newsgroup were before my time (Beetles, Jimi Hendrix, etc. etc.).
James Flames
James,
There is more than one newsgroup as far as I can tell. Which one had that kind of stuff?
Regards,
Rick
Unfortunatly, I don't remember. It was probably 3-4 months ago. Sorry.
James Flames
x
As far as I know, only Harvey's has a poker room. Not very big, either, about half-dozen tables.
It's the only one, and it's consistently disappointing. Lots of locals, not much action etc. Usually have 3-5 tables going, and you are lucky to get a 10-20 (often 2-10 is the highest they have).
Harvey's is on South Shore. I've seen holdem (2-6 is their low limit game, saw an interest list for 6-12 one time, 10-20 others, heard they get a 1k buy in PL or NL game going some weekends), stud (1-5, don't know if any bigger), and omaha (don't know at what limits). Reasonable room although mid week the granit in that room is a bit hard to split.
Hyatt Regency on north shore has a room but I've never been to it. They specialize in Pineapple although they do have a HE once a week so I assume they spread other games. Better call ahead. I think this room is only open 1900-0200 or so during the week.
Of course if you are on west shore (Tahoe City or so) Reno is less then 90 minutes away depending on season.
thinking about buying it...i know its a compilation of articles from Card Players, and forward from Sklansky...any reviews (good/bad)?
when a good player writes a book ill bite any time. Cooke is a good player.
Ray Z wrote,
"when a good player writes a book ill bite any time. Cooke is a good player."
My only question is...Why is Cooke spelt with a capital "C"
These essays should never have been in print. Everytime I read one, I think, "I can't believe he's giving away this information." So don't buy the book. Please.
JG
I felt the same way when John Finn's strategies were revealed in print.
Brett
Aww Come on Brett....That neo-tech stuff was cheating and other such angles. I don't see a way to apply any of that stuff to a fair game.
No, Frank. You missed the point---Brett was talking about the sandwich.
Seriously, the book is wonderful. Organized by topics. Some of the columns, I recognized, some were new to me. Can be read in short "snippets" like the MM "Essays" books.
Bought mine thru ConJelCo. Great internet price, fast delivery, gets you on their mailing list. Buy the book.
Actually, I was referring to "Poker: A Guaranteed Income For Life" How could you possibly question the value of "feigning a serious tic" at the poker table?
Brett
This is an interesting take because the book doesn't contain, or purport to contain, previously undisclosed secrets or "magic bullets." In fact, I don't recall seeing anything about strategy, tactics or theory that I hadn't seen before in different contexts.
The strength and beauty of the essays, however, is that they reflect the periodic thoughts of a successful, mature professional at and away from the table. They brilliantly illustrate, IMO, the process of thinking during the hand and how he applies particular concepts, together with basic logic and common sense, in various situations that he excellently describes. So if I were a pro I guess I'd find this pretty scary stuff. (What's scarier still, BTW, is that the book is so much fun to read).
I think the book is very good, especially the articles about specific hands and strategy. There are a fair number of other topics that are well written but less interesting to me.
David
Here is an excerpt I pulled out of a rec.gambling.craps posting...it was 8 segments long of rantings. He mentioned a web site that i didn't visit ("You may visit our lawsuit at http://home..att.net/~lawcenter" )
Reason I sent this here- sounds like the clown (ringleader clown?) is planning on going after book companies too... thought i'd give y'all (and Conjelco, if you pass it on) a heads-up, in case this is more than ranting/whining.
Feel free to delete this message once you've evaluated what's going on. I would have sent email, but MS couldn't handle Feedback link.
Here is some of message from the idiot on rec.gambling.craps:
Subject: CLASS ACTION VS SYSTEM HUCKSTERS Date: 1999/08/19 Author: DougGrant Posting History
Message segment 1 of 8 - Get Next Segment - Get All 8 Segments Please note that I have been on vacation for awhile, and now have returned to the group full-time. Moreover, during my travels we have finally received information from a group of lawyers that might be willing to file full contingency class-action lawsuits against all the system hucksters, and their casino and other supporters. We have accumulated a tremendous amount of hard data that proves without question that card counting systems will fail against real world casinos. Moreover, we have absolute proof that all these fraudulent system claims made by the likes of Stanford Wong and others are contributing directly to pathological gambling. Consequently, we have started the Class-Action lawsuit process officially. It might take a couple of years to reach all potential plaintiffs, but if you believe that you have been deceived by ANY system huckster (and if you have purchased ANY of their systems with a representation that you can beat the casinos then you have been duped whether you know it or not) then email me with your name and address and telephone number and we will add you to the list of potential plaintiffs. I suggest that if you are interested in this lawsuit that you enter ASAP as there might be a limit voted by the group of lawyers that are fronting the expenses.
(The con men will attempt to claim that I gain some profit or expenses from this lawsuit and others. That is, of course a lie. You will NOT be asked to pay anything - fees, expenses nothing. Moreover, I have nothing to do with expense funds or fees. Moreover, other than an expert, I am not involved in the lawsuit.)
Our main concern, of course, is the clandestine connections between certain casinos and these system hucksters, not to mention the plethora of book companies that have been enticed to sell obviously fraudulent systems that contribute directly to pathological gambling.
We will soon start a national mailing campaign directed to all gamblers advising them of the perils of purchasing and using card counting and other casino systems that are being fraudulently represented as winning systems. Moreover, we will invite those gamblers to join our class action if they have lost money and/or expenses due to such fraudulent representations.
Moreover, we have decided to send similar correspondence to all book publishers and other entities that are selling or promoting or publishing such false system representations. Once such entities are notified, should they persist in selling such fraudulently represented systems, then they too could be held culpable for their actions. So look forward to seeing several hundred posts subsequent to this one in respect to this subject. Remember to email me with your full name, address and telephone number if you have purchased ANY gambling system (within the past six years only) from any system huckster that claimed you could win money in any casino. Like I said, this might take a while to reach numerosity, or it might be over after only a couple of mailings. But if you believe you have an honest claim, contact me and I will furnish your name to the key lawyer handling this issue. (Or have your lawyer contact me and I will refer him directly to the lawyer involved.) (ED NOTE: SKIPPED SECTIONS IN BETWEEN) Now you know why the casinos love to use the preferential shuffle. You also might have figured out why we consider its use cheating, and we have sued the casinos for using it and have filed a petition with the NJ CCC asking them to stop the casinos from using it. You may visit our lawsuit at http://home..att.net/~lawcenter if you would like to know more about the casino's use of the preferential shuffle. So what is the typical answer we read from the system hucksters in respect to the preferential shuffle?.............(ED NOTE- CONTINUES ON IN REC.* POSTING)
How did you get this document to this wep site? If you typed it you are some kind of pro.
Sally,
Most browsers will allow you to copy and paste as much text as the memory of the computer will allow for its "clipboard".
As follows :
1. Highlight the desired text to copy. 2. Click on EDIT 3. Click on COPY 4. Place the cursor in the Message: area of this website. 5. Click on EDIT again. 6. Click on PASTE
Your're done.
:-)
Thank you.
Sally,
Most browsers will allow you to copy and paste as much text as the memory of the computer will allow for its "clipboard".
As follows :
1. Highlight the desired text to copy. 2. Click on EDIT 3. Click on COPY 4. Place the cursor in the Message: area of this website. 5. Click on EDIT again. 6. Click on PASTE
Your're done.
Again, Frank, thank you.
Frank, Sally was all impressed with me, now you've blown that!
Sally, Another trick- open up Notepad (or Word) ,paste into a document from web, then cut and paste what you want. Gives you more memory, you can save doc and not lose data....
Sorry Easy, I almost thought she was going to tell me she was joking! :-)
Doug [G]rant is a certified nut. Ignore most (all?) of what he posts. Abdul has a collection somewhere on the web of some really choice Doug Grant "rants".
Or is he just a ranter? I'd hate for Conjelco or TwoPlusTwo to get sucked up into some crybaby's lunacy....
Well, that's for the Big 3 to worry about.
Thanks for the tip. Think I'll avoid wasting time with the guy's postings.
For about how long now have the 2+2 forums been getting more traffic than rec.gambling.poker? Just curious.
From mere volume standpoint I believe RGP still beats 2+2 by quite a bit. I can't put my finger on numbers but I'd estimate RGP gets over 200 articles/day. Hard to compare readerships though. The 2+2 guys should be able to give us an estimate if they wanted. USENET is a little harder. I heard an estimate of 1/2M for RGP the other day. I wouldn't be stunned if that was true.
Chris,
Could you tell me how I can find R.G.P. What web address is it?
Thanks,
Jack
It's a newsgroup, so you need a new reader like Microsoft Outlook. Or, you can go to www.deja.com and in the search field, put in rec.gambling.poker and it will pull it up. But, in order to post to the newsgroup, you would need to sign up with Deja, which is free, but they ask for a bunch of info.
James Flames
Click on the "Favorite Links" link under the "Directory" on the green panel to your left. At the very bottom, you'll find a link to r.g.p. You can also access it through deja.com and remarq.com (my preference).
im giving up on this one and going solely back to RGP Ive asked a specific questions of either Mason or David, who I had been led to understand monitor this forum, and yet neither has bothered to respond
sorry to lose you Kelly but no one owes you a reply. if your questions are interesting you may get a reply. over on rpg you are guaranteed to get responded to if thats what you are looking for. good luck.
Anyone have any good Johnny Moss stories? I control the screen rights to his life story and am in the process of writing and producing a biopic on him for a major Hollywood studio. I'm looking for any personal anecdotes, stories, or general comments that are not readily available in print. Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated.
Best regards,
Sean sean20th@hotmail.com
There is a rather disturbing story making the rounds in LV regarding a recent Jackpot heist at Sams Town LV. The story I got is that a cooler deck was brought into play with cards pre-arranged so that the players at the table would hit the Jackpot (40,000?). Allgedly they got away with it but Sams survelance tapes were reviewed the next day and the scam was exposed. The Mgr on duty was arrested when he came in to work the next day. I have no first hand knowledge of this situation but several long time players mentioned it in separate conversations. I'm wondering if anyone has any definitive info on this. It points out how difficult it can be to get accurate info.If true,we know it won't be mentioned in poker media, if false rumor it also can do damage.
I'm looking for copies of the old POKER PLAYER newspaper.Can anyone help me out?
Could someone tell me if there are any books on head up Holdem, and where I might find them.
Thanks Andy
In the 21st Century Edition of HPFAP we just happened to add a section on short handed play. A lot of the discussion is based on a heads up game.
i am having trouble with the hold um gAme on yahoo! the limit is 2-4 but it is raised every time and my poket duces get cracked repeatedly!any advise wood be helpful
Oh you noticed that too! I gave up on that game due to the slow play and all the reraising. My understanding is that to beat a game like that you play only your very best hands, which means you almost never play, and then pick up the giant pots.
I moved over to irc poker using the Gpkr windows client - very fast and better for practice since the players play much tighter and without the raising wars.
I just played a few hours in the Advanced lounge, where the play is faster, and I would concur that tight play is in order. I won maybe 3 pots in 2 hrs but came out ahead due to the huge pots.
I also noticed that many of my pre-flop mucked hands were hit on the flop, which is annoying but that's poker. I guess if nothing else, if you can beat the Yahoo game, then you should be able to beat any loose, aggressive low limit game anywhere, and it does teach you patience.
Where can I find this Gpkr software that has been mentioned? I'd be more than happy to give it a try as Yahoo is just too unrealistic. Thanks.
www.anet-stl.com/~gregr. The 16-bit version doesn't have fancy graphics - the players actions come up on a spreadsheet. There is a 32-bit version that just came out the other day, but I haven't tried that yet.
The Yahoo! game can't really be called poker. I played for about 20 minutes (hich amounted to something like 7 hands) there was an average of about 5 players on the showdown. Super slow, and useless. I've found gpkr to be fun, and the compeition is somewhat realistic.
Pocket deuces getting cracked? Is that a big surprise? Deuces are always a come hand.
I think this is the right page to post this question!
Is video poker really considered beatable? What I mean is, I know that good play on a good machine is meant to decrease your disadvantage, but I've read that you would always have at least a half percent disadvantage.
I noticed that a few books on the book page included video poker as a beatable game???
Any thoughts?
Steve
David, are there plans to update this book as well? My old copy is getting rather thrashed, I'd like to see a new improved version.
No immediate plans
If the information is accurate, there is not much need to update it, as it is an analysis of the principles of poker without regard to a specific game. Principia isn't getting rewritten too often. That being said, one could make an argument for updating FToP with PFoTP and an explanation as to why it doesn't apply to multi-way pots identically. I have a hunch tho that this is going to be addressed in a forthcoming book by someone else.
JG
If anything I think games are going to get tighter and tougher as time goes on so updating for loose games isnt really an issue. Gone are the days when Omaha was a sure way to win a couple hundred a day even at lower limits and the capped family pot isnt seen much anymore. Sure when poker first comes on a scene its a big boom with lots of live games, but now poker is pretty much everywhere and I have noticed even in California the games aren't quite what they used to be. Once Bellagio is open for a year we shall see just how much people will be raving about the games there. I have noticed some former CA pros have moved to play full-time at Bellagio so that has to hurt the quality of the games there in the long run.
Are there any casinos with poker rooms in Michigan? I will be doing some vacationing there in a few weeks, and would like to do some sampling if it is available. Any information would be much appreciated.
The Soaring Eagle in Mount Pleasant is a great place to play... they usually have up to 20-40 on weekends. Up north a little further there is a whole bunch of card rooms, Ive never been to them but I here there nice.
Thanks for the information!
Do they have low limits also? How would you characterize the players? Loose/tight? Passive/aggressive?
Is there poker during the week as well?
Are all the casinos in Michigan indian casinos?
They have 3-6 hold'em and 2-6 stud. I recommend the 6-12 holdem as the players in this game are usually incredibly passive. THe lower limit games can be found all week long.
All the casinos are indian casinos except for the temps. recently opened in Detroit. I dont think they have poker though.
Your not an attractive young lady by any chance are you?
Just a couple more things. I haven't been to the Soaring Eagle in awhile, but last time I was there, they had 4-8, not 3-6. Probably not too big a deal, but thought it might be worth mentioning.
Nagurski is correct, there is no poker the MGM Grand in Detroit or at Casino Windsor. I doubt the Greektown or the Motor City Casino will have poker either.
Here is an off the wall question. What is the feasibility of someone making a living from home playing the 10-20 games at planet poker or other online casinos.
I see from the posts below that one limitation might be speed, but that this has improved and perhaps can be overcome by playing shorthanded games. I also understand that there is a risk of collusion over separate chat lines or telephone. Any opinions on what such an endeavor is likely to be worth per hour? Thanks.
email me at kellyday@netgenie.com if you are serious
I recently purchased the new Turbo Omaha and Omaha-8 to bone-up on these games, which I rarely play in live action. I used to play lower limit Omaha-HighOnly and fared pretty well. Am I juct rusty, or are these games tougher to beat than Turbo Texas Hold'em? I even find the Omaha-8 tougher than low to mid-limit live O8 since the computer plays a little tighter (and better) than the average opponent.
What do other posters think of these games compared to Turbo Texas Hold'em and live 5-10 or 4-8 games?
The latest TT HE for Windows is tougher (much) than the older DOS version. At least that is my opinion. The players in general are much tougher.
I can usually win more at a good live 5-10 game than I do with the TT HE and TT O8; even without out rake and toke. (I have programmed the players to be tough though.)
Just my opinion. Oh, I do not follow a lot of the advice -- in fact I do not use it any more at all on TT O8, it is way too prone to come in on top pairs in situations which cannot win against small straights and lost large multiway pots-- but otherwise the practice is great, and I am a great fan of Wilson. He has done a great job.
Mark
If you are really looking for a good Omaha software, visit web site: www.acespad-software.com.
Do you own the software, or are you shilling? I've been trying here and RGP to get an owner's opinion on this product... with no success.
Are you an owner?
All I will say, is, there has been someone consistantly pushing this page on every software discussion, both here and rgp. Things the posts have in common:
1) brevity 2) similar writing styles 3) refusal to back up claims with examples, detail, etc. 4) anonymity, in the sense of not writing back when
challenged, etc.
We obviously don't know all the facts, but if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
its probably spam.
(dont they make spam out of duck lips?)
lol
I own neither software, but have noticed the only time Wilson speaks up is on technical questions,leaving discussions of merit for others. When I buy, a paycheck or two from now, my choice will be clear.
Be well,
Zooey zooey2@hotmail.com
I've got both Turbo Omaha and Turbo Omaha-8, and I find that the quality of the players (and adviser) is terrible.
It seems that the computer discounts the information of raises on previous rounds, for one thing. For example, I had a hand where I had two pair and the nut flush draw. A straight came on the turn, and there was a bet, I called, and a raise, and a re-raise behind me. I called, and missed my flush on the river. Now the same player bet, and the adviser suggested that I call with my two pair, because apparently the rule is that you should call with two pair against a single bet and no raise, even with a straight on the board. And while this might be a good rule in some circumstances, it was clear that there was no way I could win with two pair. The computer opponents seem to play the same way.
I bought Turbo Omaha because I wanted to run some simulations similar to what Abdul has been doing with Holdem. Omaha is my favorite games, and I think it's more amenable to computer simulation than holdem is. I concluded that the computer plays so badly that it's a waste of time.
LV People,
I need help with this I lost a bet to a woman (something completely different) and she wants her pizza in LV. So if you can stop laughing long enuf to answer this I would appreciate any spots for pepperoni pizza.
Thanks And I haven't learned my lesson so don't ask.
Paul
Wow, I can make a positive recommendation about something in Las Vegas!!!!
"Metro Pizza." Excellent! There are a couple, but I only know the one on Sandhill and Flamingo, in the Smith's plaza.
I've always enjoyed the California Pizza Kitchen at The Mirage(as much as I hate saying anything good about The Mirage).
Brett
Has anyone had any experience with poker on the internet, ie is it legitimate, and what about possible cheating? Also, anyone played using webtv, which is what I have? Thanks.
It's worth a try. Don't get hooked -- live poker has more soul.
I guess if you're the type of player that gives off alot of tells, maybe online poker is for you. Heh heh, that aside, planetpoker has been mentioned often but not deltapoker, which I am looking at trying.
Any hidden fees? I am looking to try 4-8 or 5-10.
Delta has no hidden expenses - usually play 4-8 or 6-12. Free to deposit, free to withdraw. Planetpoker charges 6% to deposit, and $15 to withdraw, as does Atlantic Interbet and Dragonpoker Inn.
Delta doesn't appear to have any hidden fees, although I haven't tried to withdraw my meager $15 winnings. They are short on player though; last night they had 1 4/8 game going.
Wow, that's just plain gouging, IMO. These online card rooms already charge the same rake as large clubs, so you'd think that would be enough. They have virtually no overhead to speak of or employees to pay, so their rake is pure profit. That should more than cover any expenses they have in working with the credit card companies and mailing checks.
Delta sounds good and I hope they don't get greedy, either.
Just to set the record straight...
Planet Poker charges 6% on transfers via credit card from our E-cash providers to Planet Poker. This isn't a revenue generating charge. E-cash on the internet is still a relatively new thing and that's how much we get charged as a transfer fee. This is not a hidden charge. It is outlined quite specifically on our web site. If you don't want to use your credit card and can wait a few days, there is no charge at all for mailed in checks or wire transfers (although the bank will charge you for wires).
We have recently brought on a new E-cash processor (Winners Internet). Normally they do charge $10 for a wire transfer and $17.50 for a international bank check. We have never charged for cash outs and we still don't. In the short term at least we will absorb these costs. After we've been with their system for a while we may re-evaluate this, but I suspect that we will never be dinging our customers that much for a cashout.
Has anybody made a real good profit and how long did it take for the check to be in your hands!!!!!!
Could someone please tell me if video poker is considered a beatable game?
I thought the best you could do was to have about 0.5% against you (about the same as basic strategy blackjack in a shoe game).
I get the impression that some feel it is a beatable game.
Any thoughts PLEASE???
Steve
there are some places with machines that have paybacks over 100% with perfect play. when jackpot machines get high enough you have a positive play as well but your earn only shows up when you hit it the rest of the times you leave loser.
Steve,
As Ray said above, there are games with a slightly positive payback. If you play these using perfect strategy with a slot club card, you will make a few cents an hour, and be able to use your slot club points to get toaster ovens or whatever. You may want to check out articles/ or books by Don Paymer, the late Lenny Fromme (sp?), and a couple others who are reputable. Conjelco may carry them and Gambler's Book Club certainly does.
The basic reason the casino's can offer such a machine is that playing correct strategy is very anti-intuitive. A few locals will make a few cents but most tourists will misplay them in a big way. I'm supposed to be a semi-intelligent gambler but years ago I played one roll of quarters once on a dueces wild weird bonus type machine and I wasn't even close when I looked it up in Fromme's book which I had in my room.
Regarding making a living, you would need to play progressive machines where the jackpot is big. Stanford Wong has a book about ten years old which covers this well. My understanding (note that I don't live in Las Vegas or go there much) is that it is not as easy as it used to be.
Quick story before I gotta run. Obout eight years ago I am having a comped drink at a Las Vegas casino bar while I played the correct stategy in video poker (which is still usually negative EV not counting the drink). I was waiting for my wife but this being Las Vegas a hooker maunevers herself next to me. I watch her play a bit and she is making every mistake in the book. After she makes her move (of which I politely declined of course), I left and told her if she just read a book of tables or two she wouldn't have to work so hard. She seemed to appreciate the advice and I always wonder if she actually did it.
Regards,
Rick
I was waiting for my wife but this being Las Vegas a hooker maunevers herself next to me. I watch her play a bit and she is making every mistake in the book. After she makes her move (of which I politely declined of course), I left and told her if she just read a book of tables or two she wouldn't have to work so hard. She seemed to appreciate the advice and I always wonder if she actually did it.
Good Enuf Reason For Me Not To Play What's The EV Including Her Charge + Winning At Video Poker.
Paul
Video Poker is very beatable. There are people who have made a whole lot of money at video poker, and I will name them on request. How much you make depends on which denomination/machine you play, and how fast you are. My wife makes about $7.00 per hour playing .25 full pay deuces. My friend Dennis was making about $30.00 per hour playing $1.00 full pay joker poker, untill they took the machines out. There is info. available(Bob Dancer) on what full pay is, and where the machines are, and the correct strategy. Be prepared to be bored.
Jack
I just moved to NYC. If anyone has information regarding the Mayfair Club, it would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Jim.
It's pretty cool. I have a friend who is a member and he's taken me there twice when I was in town visiting. Too much stud, but when they have hold 'em, the games are good. There are some very good local pros, but I have also seen some average and below average players. You can learn a lot from the pros and stay out of their way.
No alcohol, food is mediocre. It's on 25th Street, if I recall.
You might also try the Diamond Club. It is a bit more casual in terms of food and atmosphere, but has dealers (the Mayfair is self-dealt). The DC has mostly hold'em, 4-8 and 10-20 every night, and 2-5 blind pot limit on Saturday and Tuesday. The pot limit game gets pretty big pots. They are also starting to promote more stud and 08, and are getting these games off a couple times a week.
They also have a fun $0 + rebuys no-limit HE tourney on Sunday, a stud tourney on Sat, an O8 tourney Mondays, and a limit HE tourney on Thursdays.
The phone number is 727-1956. Ask for John or Billy. They will probably check you out a bit and ask for references, etc., but are fairly welcome to new (non-pro) members. You can email me at mtedesco@sbi.com if you don't have any luck or want more details.
Can't vouch for the Mayfair, but I think the games are generally larger and looser. I also think there is a yearly membership fee.
The Mayfair is a "members-only" club. It may be hard to get into the games there unless you already know someone who's a member.
It's a small place with a homey atmosphere. There's a pool table in the lounge and several card tables. You can also usually find someone to play backgammon or chess with.
You may want to check out their webpage at: http://www.nycguide.com/mayfair/
good luck, Kam
I'm looking for legitimate poker room around montreal area? What is the closest room?
If you hear of one, please let me know. I am frequently in the Montreal area.
Sean,
If i hear of anything i'll let you know... i am hoping to get a response on this board.
-shack
Rick -- You asked about creating italics etc. in a post on the Theory/Strategy Forum. It's really quite easy. You just plug some simple HTML commands into your posts in the appropriate places. Those places are usually (always?) on each side of any word or phrase that you want formatted in a particular way (e.g., italics, bold, underlined...). I've only bothered to learn a few common ones. Obviously someone like Abdul, with his use of charts etc., can do a lot more.
I've put a link below to a site that appears to have everything you'd ever want to know about it. Try the "Quick Reference Guide". That's where I picked up what I know about it.
The difficulty with explaining it in a post is that the HTML commands that you're trying to illustrate disappear after you post the post, leaving only the formatting behind! (Email me if you just want to learn a couple of basics. They won't disappear in an (non-HTML) email.)
John Feeney
http://www.utexas.edu/learn/pub/html.html
John,
I'll give it a try. There sure isn't a lack of material out there and you can view the source code from your browser.
Regards,
Rick
Here is how to format your posts on the twoplustwo website using HTML commands.
The horizonal lines you see are made with: This preformatted fixed width text should line up<BR>
=================================================
</PRE>
This preformatted fixed width text should line up
================================================= (The <BR> is for a line break, though the 2+2 posting mechanism tends to override it, and you normally wouldn't even have to use it in a preformatted text block.) Here is an unnumbered list:
<UL>
<LI>This is the first element.
<LI>This is the second element.
</UL>
Here is an unnumbered list: (Use <OL> and </OL> for numbered lists. You can nest the lists. You can also nest most of the other commands.) <TR ALIGN="CENTER"><TH COLSPAN=3>Table
<TR ALIGN="CENTER"><TH>Tic<TH>Tac<TH>Toe
<TR ALIGN="CENTER"><TD>X<TD>X<TD>O
<TR ALIGN="CENTER"><TD>O<TD>X<TD>O
<TR ALIGN="CENTER"><TD> <TD>O<TD>X
</TABLE> <IMG SRC=/covers/holdem.gif>,
<IMG SRC=/images/sklanskyhead.gif> and
<IMG SRC=/images/malhead.gif> write that... In (Also /images/zeehead.gif /covers/advstud.gif /covers/eight.gif /covers/theory.gif and many more that you can discover using "View source" in your web browser when you see a picture on the twoplustwo website.)
Rick - Here is the easy way. Use the HTML you learned here to "touch up" what you create ...
In your web browser, click "Edit Page". In Internet Explorer there is an "Edit" button or you can get there by the pulldown Edit ... Page. In Netscape, I think the path is pulldown File ... EditPage.
Now you are in Composer (or whatever your browser calls it). Click File ... New and you can now use the Composer just like a word processor to compose a web page. You can probably learn more than one trick per day! The bold/italic/underline controls are easy. Be sure to experiment with right-click into your page - I think that's where you find "insert ... image"
When you have composed what you want, save the page as text (it took 2 tries to find the selection in Internet Explorer FrontPage to "save as file" instead of putting it directly on the Internet!); then use Notepad to edit it as text.
Now you have to remove the HTML, HEAD, and BODY stuff at the top (because the page created by Conjelco will already have all that "overhead" stuff on it), and remove the /BODY and /HTML at the bottom.
Paste what's left into the Message area and you should get exactly what you wrote in Composer.
Here are some things I created using only the page composer:
Test page ... italics ... bold ... underlined ... picture from anywhere on the web ... here's the banner from Card Player Mag. ... Dick
Here's an improvement over the above:
Open Composer ... File ... New
Create what you want to insert, using Composer
Right-click and "View Source"
Just cut-and-paste the source that Composer just created for you, and insert it into the Conjelco window.
Dick
I was wondering if anyone out there has an opinion concerning the use of shuffling machines by poker dealers . It seems to me that it might significantly increase the output of hands, insure a random shuffle, and perhaps take some heat off of dealers. And does anyone know who sells them? My apologies for mistakenly posting this on the poker forum.
GI,
I used this nifty new search program called Copernic 99 which sends out simultaneous queries to most major engines but all I came up with so far is balckjack shuffling machines. I'll try again later if I can come up with a better query.
Regards,
Rhode Island Rick
Try searching: Pai Gow Equipment.
I've read HPFAP so many times, the pages are falling out. It's my only hold'em book. What should be the next book for me? I'm very interested in psychology and tells, but I want a HE strategy book that's more concise than HPFAP, which seems to jump around alot. thanks
_HPFAPP, 21st Century Edition_. Sorry, it's not more concise than the previous edition, but it's got a significant amount of new material.
More concise and also very good is Sklansky's _Hold'em Poker_.
Have you read _Theory of Poker_? I'd read that before going on to other Hold'em books. Then when you do go on to them, you'll be in a better position to critique them, which ultimately becomes the best way to get something worthwhile out of some of them.
John Feeney
spadebrain,
21CHEFAP is much better than HEFAP there are good psychology sections in it and the questions and answers in the back are a great feature in this book. The strategy and bluff section is half the book or more. Also you might want to buy GAMBLING FOR A LIVING which has 30 pages on tells.
Until We Meet On The Nile!!!
Paul
I don't remember any pages on tells in GFAL much less 30, but I haven't got the book here.
Spadebrain: Theory of Poker will give you a richer foundation for some of the specific plays in HPFAP. It has more bang for the buck than the new version of the latter (which you should also get).
Bob Ciaffone's "Improve Your Poker" or Roy Cooke's book should also be on your short list. Both volumes of "Poker Essays" are worthwhile, but the second is more current.
TWIMC,
In the back of the GFAL book on page 318 index it lists tell 5,12,15,16,19,23,37,47,76,81,102,108,146,169,181,189,195,196,204,214-216,219,223,235,242,283,284,300,308 tells 19,55,87,185,226,242,300,302,309.
I'm sorry these are just listings of the word tell or tells. My 5am help isn't what it used to be.
Paul
To set the record straight, there is not a section on tells in Gambling for a Living.
Mason,
I realize that now for some reason in the index it printed out all these pages for tell and tells. I was half awake and I just counted up the pages and said this will help, but it must be some gliche that happened on the printing of the book. When I got back home I checked it out because everyone said what tells. Then I went through each page listed and it only had the word tell on each one of those pages. Like Ray says after about three tries I finally explain what I mean and it almost makes sense. I realize I'm partially to blame but so is the book for having this listed in the tell part of the index on page 318 of GFAL (Gambling For A Living).
So Sorry Paul
Is gambling for a living a worthwhile book?
spadebrain,
I think it's the future for a gambler to be able to play a number of games well, which in turn gives you more options on your day or nite at the tables. It discusses BJ, Sports (Baseball, basketball etc., Horse racing, Slot & Poker Machines those are all the beatable games. Then there is a section on non-beatable games roulette, craps, keno, baccarat, Other games. then there is a section on Casino trnmts. Anyway that's out of the ToC (Table of Contents) so I hope that's right not like the index in the back. IMO it's a great book to help you think of where you want to go next.
For Me That's To The Crib
Paul
Gambling for A Living is designed as an overview of all the beatable casino games. It is basically an introduction to how to become a top all around gambler. We think it's a great book for someone fairly new to casino gambling, but it is not written at the same level of detail as some of our other books.
What tells?
TWIMC,
In the back of the GFAL book on page 318 index it lists tell 5,12,15,16,19,23,37,47,76,81,102,108,146,169,181,189,195,196,204,214-216,219,223,235,242,283,284,300,308 tells 19,55,87,185,226,242,300,302,309.
I'm sorry these are just listings of the word tell or tells. My 5am help isn't what it used to be.
Paul
I don't think there is a "more concise" HE book the HFAP (new edition preferred).
That said, I would consider for HE: Roy Cooke's book of essays and Ciffone's Improve Your Poker. For the tells, Mike Caro's book of tells.
Based on the range of topics we see in the forum I believe there is room for quite a few more good books on HE.
David
Bob Ciaffone's Improve Your Poker has some very practical chapters on tells. I especially like the one in which he discusses eye movements. Speaking of eye movements, there is no book greater than Using Your Brain for a Change written by Richard Bandler. In my opinion, it's the best book ever written on the subject of how to uncover another person's intentions through your observation of his eye movements. It is also a very good psychology book. If you haven't yet read The Theory of Poker by David Sklansky, you are missing out on a lot of advanced poker concepts and their underlying principles.
If you are going to play in just lower medium limits I suggest Lou Krieger's books. I know some people dont care much for them, but I think his writing is much like David's in that he does a good job of explaining points without being overly technical. His writing doesn't really cover the things needed to beat bigger games, but I consider it solid advice and I reread them almost as much as my 2+2 books.
Buy all the good books and read them together and finish them. If you are playing poker daily reading one at a time and taking time to select costs too much money and spends too much time in the dark. Then buy "Paul Feeney on abbreviations in poker and life for the internet" when he writes it so you can understand what he is talking about in his posts. Good Luck.
Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. I find HFAP very valuable, but what I mean by it not being concise is that I find it hard to put the concepts in a format for study. I'll take a look at the new edition. I've read Roy Cooke's articles and find them to be excellent.
SB
Can anyone recommend some good places to play poker in the Seattle area (5-10 - 10-20 Holdem) thanks BB
Simple, go to the Hideaway on Aurora and 145th. Best 10-20 games anywhere. Two dollar rake and lots of action, usually a couple of games to choose from. Also they have a couple of 4-8 games as well. I have played there 5 or 6 times and have never been in a tight game, even during afternoon games. Only thing is that the smoking can get out of hand there. Coming from CA its hard to get used to because most of the rooms up there are small so they arent spending much on filtration systems. When will the other states figure it out and ban smoking inside as well? It sure hasnt hurt CA businesses except for maybe a dive bar here or there.
Anyone out there use webtv, and found an online poker room that is compatible? Thanks.(One cannot download anything with webtv.)
Why are you still using Webtv anyways? Go buy a $500 computer and in two years you will have paid for it by using one of the many free ISP's out there now. Or pay the $21.95/month and get the free computer from Compuserve.
free isp's that work all the time and connect you quickly? is that what you use?
I do use them now because all the regular ISP's arent all that reliable themselves. The only thing is that you have to put up with an ad box on the screen, but after a few days you get used to it and generally ignore it. I have 3 of them set up just in case any of them arent working at a given time.
what is the name of these "Free" ISPs How do you get them?
How do you get a free computer from compuserve? And what kind is it? Is it really a good deal to do this? Thank you in advance for your help.
The Compuserve offer is basically a $400 rebate on any computer you buy when you sign up for a 3 year contract for online service at $21.95/month. Generally I hear its not the best thing to do since so much will change online in 3 years and you might be stuck with a slow ISP when the same monthly rate might get you something faster.
The free ISPs that I would suggest are at www.altavista.com and one for netzero (not sure the web address). There are even more available, just look it up on a search engine under free internet service. You go to the site and download the application, run it, answer the registration questions, and then you can start using it. Pretty easy process.
Ok. Will Check out. Thanks.
Today i went fishing on Marias pass near Glacier N.P. on a river that i can always catch 50 trout out of when just as i head to the water a large(they always look large) grizzly bear with two cubs came down the bank about 100 feet away. where they were going to cross was right where i was and there was no moving away for me. as usual i was my lucky self and made a little noise and she stood up and looked and smelled for me but i was behind a bush. a little more noise and she went back up the bank and left with her two cubs. i then went and caught my fish. sometimes doing the opposite of the normal advise may be the best ploy as most would make alot of noise and yell here and that might have gotten me in trouble.
If you had read my book like you advertise you would of known that was the correct sol'n.
Paul
I know I'm just a city boy, but standing up and yelling at the bear wouldn't have been my first instinct. Somewhere right behind trying to grab one of the cubs I think on my scale of preferences.
I think Ray is probably referencing that many back country manuals encourage you to scream, yell, and (a few even say to) throw rocks. Many (most?) people facing this situation are probably looking at a California brown bear (or like semi herbivore) which will typically amble away at least for a few minutes in my experience. Aggressively yelling at a grizzly mother and cubs seems like a very short term habit to me. I'd guess due to the bears poor sight, Ray's covered location, and the cubs the mother decided not to risk approaching a possible threat.
This sounds like it has more poker content then Ray's title suggested.
good thinking. also the california bears are all black bears even if brown colored.
Someday Ray Zee WILL get eaten by a bear and when they cut him open to determine the cause of death they won't find no gamble inside.
thanks calvin,
wont find no gamble means will find gamble. also if eaten by bear no need to determine cause of death.
Nice bluff.
the poker part of the whole thing is to be able to make the right decisions no matter what situation you are facing. in other words use your head and not your emotions as best you can.
Ray,
I've run into the black bears in California while by myself and played my best game but a grizzly would definitely put me on tilt.
Regards,
Rick
You might want to check the archives for a response from Ray in an earlier thread where he outlines some 'tells' which will indicate if the bear really means business. :)
The strategy for discouraging a bear attack is similar to the strategy for discouraging a great white shark attack: when it attacks you, poke it's eye then flip it over.
actually its their nose thats tender to them. once they are upon you, you can only play dead and hope they lose interest and no longer feel you are a threat.
Actually Ray didn't get lucky at all. When Momma bear saw that it was "Ray Zee" she was up against she just figured that she wouldn't get any "action" and went off looking for a softer spot.
Bears can play poker too.
Made a little noise? Sounds like you were faking a slowplay. The mother bear probably left feeling smug, knowing she avoided a big hand which was trying to not scare her off with a lot of noise. Very clever.
Ray Zee he always get lucky. Mama Bear she eat him she die, cause of death heap big TIGHTening of throat. So all she do is show professional respect to poker raptor. Its unbearable to think of headlines " Grizzlee Dies from RZee Gut Shot". Isn't it time to start a campaign to make RZ a Montana State Treasure, maybe that way they keep him.
So the poker aspect is knowing your adversary well. I gather you have more than a yearly occasion to apply these bear avoidance skills?
i only get lucky enough to get so close once every few years. i see them on a regular basis from a distance and they come in my yard at nite and turn over all sorts of things but do no damage. the black bears are around all the time but they run away quickly.
Ray:
I've only read a little of this silly thread since it has nothing to do with poker. But if you are scared of the grizzlys here's a simple solution. Just take one of your cats with you, that annoying black one would be a good example. If the bear gets too close, just toss the cat its way and that should keep Mrs. Grizzly occupied while you scamper to safety.
Will be in Dallas this sunday looking for a poker game
Hi, as you have probably guessed, I am looking for a home poker game in or around San Jose, California. If you have any information please email me at quanphan@netzero.net. Thanks for reading, Quan
There is a casino in town that has the following game: nickel video poker with the deuces and one joker being wild. The progressive jackpot is $1,400. To win it you must bet the maximum of 5 nickels (for a total of 25 cents) and get 4 deuces and the joker. In other words, deuces quads. I am no mathematician but my instincts tell me that this is a positive expectation situation. Am I right or am I merely hallucinating? At what point should the progressive jackpot be for me to breakeven against the house? What's my per bet E.V.?
huh?,
You might read the thread below on video poker. Correct strategy for most machines are covered by the various books. Do not rely on instinct. These games are designed to destroy the instinctual player.
Regards,
Rick
Does anyone out there have any experience with poker in the casinos of Michigan's Upper Peninsula?
Nagurski (see below) helped me out with Mt Pleasant, but I'd also like to check out others in Michigan on my travels. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Sue- The only one I am familiar with first hand is the Chip In Casino near Escanaba MI on Highway 41. It is about 110 miles from Green Bay WI. Casino is large, new, with an attached 13 story hotel. I think rooms are $75-110.
Phone # 1-800-682-6040
They have a 6 table poker room with low limit action. Not easy games though for a beginner. Generally it is $2-5 or $5-10 Dealer's choice. The games can be called straight high or hi/lo split. Players can "choose" from Holdem, Omaha, Pineapple, Double Flop Holdem, and 7Stud. Omaha and Holdem are the ones chosen most often.
They have nightly tournaments at 7:30 and on Saturdays at 1 pm. All times are EDT.
I have played there a lot in the past when they had their old casino. Nice friendly staff, but games are not plentiful anymore since the river boats opened up in Chicago and Iowa. They probably spread 2 tables regularly during the week and 3-4 on weekends. I was last there over Fourth of July weekend, so you may want to call first and get a read on the type of action they have had most recently.
Hope this is of help. If you do go there, please say hi to players and staff from "Diane from Green Bay.
Diane
Many thanks, Diane. I'm afraid that "dealer's choice" scares me off at this point!
At least I know to ask about that at other places.
I just played at the Kewadin Casino in St. Ignace. Mostly 7 card stud, but I think they had an Omaha table going later in the evening. No hold em at all. Two of the stud tables were 2-5 and 10-20 spread limit. One was 10-20 hi-lo. I sat at the two five briefly and it was very passive, with the largest pot being about 25 bucks. There were a couple multiway showdowns, but those generally had no raising, and minimal 2-3 dollar type bets. I sat for about an hour and was a whopping 9 dollars richer for it.
The people at the table were generally cordial.
I think they have nightly tournaments as well.
hope that helps. Brian
Is Doug Grant the only person, who has situations which lead to the gaming commission? Given the number of persons, who post to this forum (and all of the gripes), I am surprised to see no posts of experiences with local gaming commissions. I have found the commissions in Illinois and Indiana to be pro-casino, and generally unresponsive to complaints, from the casino-going public.
Try playing 15-30 in Kansas City without knowing the gaming commission allows a player to lose only 500 in any two hour session! Lucky for me I never got short-stacked, but if I had known I would have colored-up instead of cashed out - since they spread 20-40 at the Station Casino the next day.
Andrew Wells wrote......Exuse me, but what is your point?
Didn't you ask if anyone other than D. Grant has had a bad experience with a gaming commission? I simply posted a bad experience with a foolish gaming commission rule I had encountered.
Yes, it is a foolish rule. But don't blame the gaming commission. It was the only way we could get casino's (hence public poker) in Missouri.
OK twoplustwo buddies..I need help. I've finally decided to "bite the bullet" and give up my beloved Macintosh and upgrade to a computer that can run all that neat poker software that's out there. (Yeah I know about Virtual PC and Softwindows for the Mac but I hear they slow things down a lot) I still love the Mac OS (I bought my Mom an IMAC for her 80th birthday and she's surfing the web now) but for me it's now time for Windows
Now that I've sold my business and spend a lot more time playing poker I've decided to dust off that old BS in mathematics that I got back in the 60's and put it to use improving my poker skills.
So...I'm looking for recommendations for a new computer. I'll use it mostly for the internet (needs to be fast) and for poker related software.
Since I'll be moving around a lot I'll probably lean towards a laptop (although I've never used one and don't know what the disadvantages are.)
Please let me know what you think I need. Have you had a bad experience with any computer? Warn me please.
I don't want to spend any more than I have to but I don't want to be foolishly frugal...I can spend say $2000.00 if necessary but I want something to back up my files and maybe an external monitor for my home base if I end up getting a laptop.
Feel free to respond by email if you have something to say which may not be of general interest to the whole group
Laptops generally don't have as high a speed and as much RAM as desktops- plus they are a lot more expensive.... as in several grand more.
although the location flexibility is nice...
Jim,
I move around a lot and have a notebook computer. Mine is plenty powerful enough at it has a 400 MHZ processor, 128 MBytes of RAM, 24x CD, 6 GByte Hard drive, 16 bit sound card, 13.3 TFT LCD display, PCMCIA 56k modem, all the connections for external peripheral devices, a touch pad mouse, a 3-6 hour lithium ion battery, and an optional port replicator (docking station). The problem with notebooks is that they tend to offer a more expensive computing solution that a desktop and prices can vary from vendor to vendor quite a bit. I did some comparitive shopping using Computer Shopper and got mine for $1900 by using that source. I don't expect much support from my vendor so that is also something to consider. I really, really like my notebook as I do use it in several locations. If you are using battery power a lot it probably would pay to buy an extra battery pack. I got stuck in the Dallas airport once for eight hours and was able to do work their but I had to find a place to re-charge my battery pack which wasn't fun. If you have any more questions e-mail me at the above address.
Tom Haley
Greetings:
I'm going to Vegas on Wednesday and have yet to get a room. I'm wondering which of the Poker rooms will discount my room the easiest. I'll probably only be playing 1-5 stud, though I plan on putting in about 15-20 hours. Any thoughts, opinions, experiences, etc??
Thanks,
JPN
I suggest the Orleans. I'm not sure of the room rates but they're stid gamesusually go later than mosty and for the most part are good. With 2-3 hours of play you get a $5 food comp. The MGM will comp a buffet but only with a strict 5 hours continous play. I think the Luxor had good poker room rates, although I never liked the games there too much, except the holdem freezeout tourn.
I was told by the Luxor Poker Room manager that they will charge $49 on a weekday and $79 for a weekend during most periods -- I guess this doesn't include holidays, Comdex week, etc. You need to play a lot (I forget the # of hours). The good news is that the Hotel is very very nice, and the game was very good/easy when I last visited. The bad news is that there were no games higher than 4-8 and no O8, only HE.
Mark
Depends on the amount you want to pay for a room. The Luxor rate is for 4-5 hours on weekdays and 6-8 on the weekends and they say they are flexible about it, say you play only 2 on the first day and 10 the second. You have to pay the full room rate upfront and then if you qualify they give you a ticket which you give at checkout that gets you the discount, so you do have time to make up if you need. The games there are pretty good at least the stud and goes pretty much all night from what I remember. One time I just wanted to stay there so I got the special rate and had no problem putting in the time. The game is typical though, high rake, but generally if you want to play low limit stud its better than a locals place like the Orleans. If you are willing to pay more the Mirage used to offer (havent heard if its changed) $79 weekday/109 weekends with 8 hours of play, but its for any limit game so will always be able to get in your hours. Bellagio last I heard was 109/149 with the same 8 hour requirement. This weekend is going to be tough though with the holiday...good luck.
Good opportunity there. Lots of 5-10 and 10-20 tables (10 of each). Players for the most part aren't very strong (the guy next to me played any hand all the way if 1 of his cards was higher than a 10). New tables opened I had one of those days though, where during one 11 hand run, the highest card I had was a 9. Managed to break even even though I won 1 hand, when I was dealt AA and the cards then came 235, 4 8.
One semi-pro I recognized there dropped $1800 in an hour at 10-20 in a bad run vs. these players. There are some players who are quite good.
Ok, I tried it on Friday night. Easy to download, easy to use. Easy to get them the $$, no commissions.
I played for about 2-3 hours 3-6 and then 4-8. No 10-20 going, also no seats at the full 4-8 table for hours, so I always played in a short game (3-4 people).
I liked it. The first game was easy, one poor player (IMHO), we could smell the blood, and my cards were very good. I won $120 in 30 minutes at 3-6, amazing. I then lost most of it back in a shorthanded 4-8 at 3:30 AM, I was playing very poorly, too tired. I came out ahead and I have cashed in, I want to see the check before I play more.
Positives: Good design, can play from home, no smoke, no tokes needed.
Negatives: Cannot see the players. I did not realize how much I use sight/general feel of others' emotional wellbeing and tells to play. It is amazing, and I missed it. I also missed a list, I could never get onto the table I wanted.
Mark the K
The method to cash out is not real obvious as you can't process a check out of the cashiers cage; they want you to send an email with your account number and amount to cash.
Being cautious with online offshore poker, I want to cash out my buy-in and play with the meager profits until a legitimate check arrives.
Did you send an email to deltasupport or deltabanker?
BTW, no tokes is a great way to play for a change, the money flowing off the table for tokes is normally significant.
Hi Chin,
I emailed, I then checked later and found my account at zero. I await my check, which I believe will come as advertised.
Mark
I emailed deltabanker, got a confirmation within 3 hours, and got a check in 3 days
Is anyone aware of when the poker room is scheduled to open at the Turning Stone Casino in New York State?
What about the poker rates for rooms and lastly what games will the poker room host?
Thanks for your help!
Selected excerpts from rgp:
********************************************************
The woman I spoke with today (August 31st) said that the room will have 15 tables and will feature HEM, stud, and stud/8. The limits will begin at $1-5 but they hope to offer larger games as demand warrants.
I was told earlier that they probably will not spread Omaha at this time.
For updates and/or further info call 800-771-7711 and ask for the poker room manager, Guy Centore.
As a native Syracusan who returns as often as possible, I look forward to this room's opening. It provides just one more excuse to go "home."
ehutchison@aol.com
Edward Hutchison
Jackson, MS *******************************************
Just called them today.They said September 13.
*********************************************
According to the most recent Card Player, mid-September. The 15th, IIRC.
*********************************************
They say they will open Sept 13, lets hope they stick to this date this time.
Bill in Rochester NY.
*********************************************
Are there any casino/poker room in Houston, Texas.
Anyone know of a bookseller carrying the Biggest Game in Town by A. Alvarez?
Neither Conjelco or the Gamblers Book CLub list ii on their online catalogs, and Barnes and Noble won't order it for me as it's out of print.
Thanx
There are lots of copies available at bibliofind.com.
Brett
Is caffeine bad for poker-playing?
-Abdul
No, caffeine is required for poker-playing.
I'm not sure. But a guy named Jihad or something once wrote a detailed post on it, citing some Australian research as I recall. See the archives. ;-)
Yeah, yeah, I've read the post by Abdul Jihad (see link below.) After reading the follow-ups I wasn't sure that caffeine was a good thing. A couple people thought that Jihad's feeling of the effect of a swig of coke or espresso within seconds couldn't be true, since caffeine takes longer to reach the brain. Poker is long periods of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror, so I'm not so sure a long term stimulant is what you want. What you really want is a quick-acting stimulant like a shot of adrenaline or, I hate to say it, a puff of a cigarette for the nicotine, which you could indulge in when you first put chips into the pot. Chocolate has two different kinds of simulants in it, caffeine and something else... I wonder if you could smoke chocolate and get an instant hit of the stimulants? :-)
Anyway, after reading Roy Cooke's article and that thread, I decided to give up caffeine. My poker results for the subsequent months have been good, but usually I run well and only occasionally I run poorly anyway. I have noticed little if any difference in my awareness at the tables; I'm as bored as ever. Really the only effect I have seen is a decrease in trips to the bathroom, which is admittedly quite valuable.
However, I fell off the wagon yesterday and had some coke (coca-cola, I mean), so before it's too late for me to get back on the wagon, I wanted to see if someone could talk me out of drinking caffeine.
-Abdul
I've been addicted to Dr. Pepper most of my life, regular when I was young and diet now that I'm not. I really don't think the caffeine affects my play, but then I drink 8-10 cans a day. It is getting harder to sleep the older I get, though.
Brett
After eight soft drinks no wonder you can't sleep. I love the taste of coffee but I mix about 2/3 decaf in my morning cups and have one full one in the late afternoon and that is it. Any more and I have no shot at sleeping.
Regards,
Rick
IIRC, your 8-10 cans of pop a day equates to only about 2-3 cups of coffee. So, spread out over an entire day, it's probably not really all that much (compared to the caffeine consumption of the typical American office worker).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
(who consumes about 80-100 ounces/day of diet Coke, diet Dr. Pepper, and the like)
3 Bet,
They are talking about Caffiene not Cocain. You drink it not snort it!
Vince.
As a software engineer I don't intake caffeine unless absolutely needed then I prefer double expressos black. My ability to code sees a big decrease over the first time I would sleep and then seems to level out [1]. I've only really pushed it to just over 72 hours so I don't know where the next big drop off is.
[1] The biggest effect for me is my sleep cycle. I have the hardest time focusing when I would either be going to sleep (midnight or so) or waking up (say 6-8). If I apply caffeine during those times I can stay away from it the rest of the time.
1) I feel it reduces focus. Alert without focus isn't all its cracked up to be.
2) I acheive a tolerance fairly quickly. Thats part of the reason I don't take caffeine other then when I need to stay awake.
I occasionally drink a 1/4 cup of black coffee when I'm sitting at a really good game and need to stay awake. I found that there is some sort of psychological effect just due to the smell of coffee for me. But then that might be that the local cardrooms coffe could pass as drain cleaner.
THE single most effective thing I've found for increasing the amount of time I can play is to remove my contacts. The feel of sticky contacts means "sleep" to me and there just doesn't seem to be a way of overridding the quickly following drowsy feeling.
BTW, did you read the potlimit and alcohol thread in RGP?
mph
"A couple people thought that Jihad's feeling of the effect of a swig of coke or espresso within seconds couldn't be true, since caffeine takes longer to reach the brain."
Perhaps there's a psychosematic effect involved? Could you have a partner offer you caffeine-free Coke and regular Coke at different intervals to see if it affects you?
I've always thought that the "sugar rush" from cola was a major part of the stimulation, and the taste of sugar in the cola definitely has some form of psychological effect on me.
What you really want is a quick-acting stimulant like a shot of adrenaline
Adrenaline is a very powerful weapon, and I think it's fairly easy to induce the body to produce some. After looking at my cards and finding a playable hand, I tend to pause for a second or two to psyche myself up for "battle." I consider every hand to be a small-scale war, if you will. (This doesn't work as well in multi-way pots; I'm referring mainly to heads-up confrontations.) At this point, the adrenaline is pumping! I think this makes me extra-aggressive to a small extent, but since one of my flaws in the past was playing too passively, I consider this is a good thing. I find myself raising with hands that I would have called with or folded before, and invariably, these raises are correct. Even a player with an appropriate level of aggression could be well served by a brief pause to take a breath and achieve the appropriate mental state.
I drink alot of coffee when I play. I need this not as a quick stimulant, just something to keep me more alert than otherwise for the really loose midnight to six crew. I gave up cigarettes, yet will not abstain from caffeine without cutting back on session hours. This however is not practical for me at this time. I believe excess caffeine is bad for my body, but not for my poker game.
Colas tear me up under normal circumstances, but not while playing poker. I get more jittery, yet can play tighter, though I whine more about the cheese I fold. If I'm on a cola buzz AND a heater, I'll win the table.
Caffeine supposedly is bad for your nervous system.
So here is my paranoia on why I don't drink coffee.
I love coffee, but almost never drink it
Reason: I don't want to make it to the big games and have my fingers start shaking.
Abdul,
I think it depends on who you are. I'm not awake without a few cups of coffee myself. I won't play without it.
Other folks would have a stroke.
:-)
I'm quite a caffeine junkie, and it doesn't seem to affect me one way or the other (except for some reason when I'm physically tired after excersize.)
I have found, and maybe this is psychosomatic, that 40mg of gingko biloba 3 times a day makes me feel calmly alert most of the time (my pills are also cut with ginseng.) This effect seems reversed if I get dehydrated. Anyone else tried the stuff?
I use a combination Ginko Biloba and St. John's Wort. My moods have improved considerably.
Is Caffeine bad for poker playing?
Yes! It is a drug, and drugs are bad period. I used to drink coffee all day long. It is just an addictive habit. Something you don't need--but will think you do. Kick the habit and drink lots of water instead. It's all in your mind anyway.
I had to be in the bay area for a meeting last Tuesday, and with nothing else to do Monday night I decided to head out for some poker (actually I would have found a way to play even if I did have something tovdo For the first hour I gave a poker clinic on how to throw away 9-3o, 7-2o etc. Oh well, it beats getting marginal cards and loosing. Down around $120 and haven't gotten past a flop yet, I get A3s on the button. Early position player(EPP) raises, 4 callers to me. I call, BB reraises, all call. Flop is Axx, with 2 of my suit. EPP bets, solid lady player raises, a couple callers to me. Now I begin to wonder about the "inverse law of outs", which simply means that if you have too many outs and feel too good about them, you won't hit one. Throwing caution to the wind, I raise, and it ends up capped 4 ways. A blank hits the turn, checked to me, and I bet out, get 2 callers. Hit the flush on the river and take in a very nice pot.
Nothing super interesting happened to me the rest of the night. Pocket AA once, bet it all the way, and it held up unimproved. Mostly no-brainer cards, very clear decisions to play or fold. I stayed +/- $50 almost all night, and finally cashed out around 10:30 -$65. The guy to my left went on a major run though, going from all-in with his last $12 in a small pot, and running it up to 700-800 in about 2 hours.
The hands that cost me the most were big unsuited connectors in raised pots. IE KQ or QJ on the button, one raiser in front, I call, and one of the blinds re-raises, and its 2 or 3 bets to me. Hate to throw it away, so I call and see the flop, which invariably misses me. This happened several times. I have to back to my reading to see if these hands should be played. Calling the upfront raise in late position seems right, but the raises from the blinds were creating problems.
The other thing I noticed was related to chip denomination. Home in Chicago I play 5-10, which is played with $5 chips. The 6-12 was played with $2 chips. Of course, this makes big looking pots, which is generally regarded as good for creating action. However, I found it making a $12 raise look intimidating because of the number of chips involved. It took me a little while to get back to thinking in terms number of bets instead of number of chips.
Overall, I really liked playing at Bay101. The $3 button charge (vs the 10% rake to $5 here in the midwest) is more expensive, IMHO, but there is no smoking, so there is a big health benefit. Now all I need is a reason for another meeting.....
Rich Van Ollefen
If anyone has raised, and you're NOT the big blind, you should almost always fold KQ, QJ, and the like when they're unsuited. If you do this every time, you will almost never be making a mistake. And, when it is a mistake, it will be a rather small one.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
GREG!!!! HOW COULD YOU??? That's one of the major secrets to limit hold'em, esp. loose, passive games. Actually, unsuited A,J-T; K,Q-T; Q,J-T; & J,T; should also be thrown away when there's NO raise most of the time. 8 big pieces of cheese; if you always folded them, you'd never miss them.
Obviously people that havent played the 6-12 game at Bay 101. I play many many hours in this game and you incorrectly assume that raises from early position means a big hand. There is often so much action that unless you are up against a known decent player, you can't really put him on much. The key in this game is to play position and play it well and if you throw away quality hands when you have position obviously you are losing that battle. Being disciplined and throwing away that KQ when the flop doesn't fit should go without saying. Believe me unless you have played in this game and seen how many times someone raises up front with 8-7 suited or worse, you wouldn't understand. I suppose if you really wanted to protect a small bankroll you might play tight, but I dont suggest it. Your strategy may be correct in a typical 15-30 game in Vegas, but its way too tight for the live games at Bay 101.
IMO, you're wrong. Hands like KQo and QJo (per the original post) just don't play well in multiway pots. If these guys are jamming preflop with relatively weak hands, then your optimal strategy is probably to just play VERY tight preflop and wait for monster cards to beat them with. Since they are building such big pots for you, you can profitably wait for big pairs and suited As, and fold pretty much everything else. Playing big unsuited cards in these games adds tremendously to your variance, and adds little or nothing to your EV.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Well that might be true, but you also don't see how badly they play after the flop. It would take hours to give all the examples I could think of, but basically its all passive players chasing the raiser along. I find that I win more because I play much better than average after the flop so to maximize that factor I need to play more hands. I agree if it was a tough game with quality deceptive opponents then you might just wait for a big pot, but these are gamblers and you are giving up a good deal of EV if you just wait for big hands, not to mention most players in these games tend to notice the few rocks I know of and don't give them much action. Besides I rarely do play QJ off in early position as it is, even unraised.
Rick,
There was a post on the Strategy Forum regarding HE rakes. You mentioned in your response that the 15-30 Stud game at Hollywood Park takes the rake from the antes. I was wondering how much does the house take per hand.
Thanks,
Carlos
Carlos,
I believe it is $3 on a full table. I'm not sure how much it drops short handed but it does drop (I'll try to remember to check on Saturday - I'm off Thursdays and Fridays). Note that it is even taken on an "ante" steal per California law.
Regards,
Rick
Thanks for the response Rick. You know, I was in Hollywood Park a couple of weeks ago and I tried to stop by and say hi but you were too busy running around shuffling players from a broken game. Maybe next time I'm there you'll not be so busy :).
carlos
Would appreciate some rec's on HE software.
Turbo Texas Hold'em (3.0) from Wilson Software. This allows you to play against it, and is good for practice when you're just starting out and are having trouble reading the board. It also does both no fold'em simulations and more realistic simulations with its simulated players.
Mike Caro's Poker Probe. This only does no fold'em simulations, but it does it for a wide variety of games. Caro is working on a new version, so you might wish to wait on this one.
You can probably order them from ConJelCo (link at left.)
-Abdul
Hello, I am a First-year student at Columbia University, and a very serious poker player. I would be interested in finding a good manhattan club, with 5-10,10-20 stakes, and a good reputation.
I know that you have to be sponsered to get into these places, so if any of you guys play consistently at places like the Diamond Club or Mayfair Club, I would really like to know. Send me an email at aab61@columbia.edu, I would really appreciate some general advice on how to proceed. Thanks in advance.
Alex
Regardless of its quasi-legal status, online gambling presents an entire raft of risks. Key questions include: Will your personal information be handled securely (for example, will the credit card number you're paying with be stolen or the fact that you're gambling at all be leaked)? What if the gaming site is hacked? Could you be playing against cheating insiders or players acting in collusion? Are the games implemented correctly and fairly? Is the software secure? In response to the last question, we have demonstrated that the answer is no.
The Software Security Group at Reliable Software Technologies (www.rstcorp.com) has discovered a serious flaw in the implementation of Texas Hold 'em Poker that is distributed by ASF Software, Inc. (www.asfgames.com). We have exploited this flaw in the lab. Our exploit allows a player (us) to calculate the exact deck being used for each hand in real time. That means a player using our exploit knows the cards in every opponent's hand as well as the cards that will make up the flop (cards placed face up on the table after rounds of betting). We can win every time. A malicious attacker could use our exploit to bilk innocent players of actual money without ever being caught. ASF Software and all of their online casino customers have been notified of the flaw.
Currently we know of three online casinos (www.planetpoker.com, www.purepoker.com, and www.deltacasino.com) that appear to use ASF Software's implementation of Texas Hold 'em Poker. All three Websites allow players to compete for real money. There is also a demo casino (www.casinococo.com) that allows players to gamble with play money. We used our exploit against the demo casino. We also demonstrated, without actually cheating, that it could be used against real money casinos.
The flaw exists in the card shuffling algorithm used to generate each deck. Ironically, the code was publicly displayed at www.planetpoker.com/ppfaq.htm with the idea of showing how fair the game is to interested players (the page has since been taken down). In the code, a call to randomize() is included to produce a random deck before each deck is generated. The implementation, built with Delphi 4 (a Pascal IDE), seeds the random number generator with the number of milliseconds since midnight according to the system clock. That means the output of the random number generator is easily predicted. A predictable "random number generator" is a very serious security problem.
There are a number of other problems in the implementation that could lead to complete security compromise. We have only exploited the easiest one at this time.
The broad take home message from this work is simple: when software misbehaves, bad things can happen. Our mission in the Software Security Group is to stamp out insecure code before it is placed in service. Members of the group involved with the Gambling exploit are: Brad Arkin, Frank Hill, Scott Marks, Matt Schmid, and TJ Walls. The Software Security Group is led by Dr.Gary McGraw.
Folks,
In my day job I deal with some of the people at Reliable SoftwareTechnologies. I would pay attention to this post.
Chuck
Scott,
I am a programmer, I own a pretty well known software firm, I still program quite a lot, and I wondered about problems like this. (I played at one of these online casinos, I found that not seeing my opponents killed the fun, even though I won a bit.) I also worried a bit about not getting paid, but they did pay me.
Please explain though, I am not an expert at all in security (I have written compilers though): If the seed is random, a random time, for instance, how can you know the card order? Are you saying that the card you get first (or any position) determines the whole deck, so that if you know the first (or any) card, you know them all? Bad algorithm!! I would love to see this algorithm. Is it still posted somewhere?
Thanks for the alert, I won't play again til they post a fix!
Mark the K
Mark the K wrote: Please explain though, I am not an expert at all in security (I have written compilers though): If the seed is random, a random time, for instance, how can you know the card order? Are you saying that the card you get first (or any position) determines the whole deck, so that if you know the first (or any) card, you know them all? Bad algorithm!! I would love to see this algorithm. Is it still posted somewhere?
There's a moderately technical writeup at http://www.rstcorp.com/news/gambling-tech.html which should answer your questions. ASF Software (which is what runs Planet Poker and the other live Texas Hold'em games) has changed their software so that our exploit no longer works. This doesn't imply that it's safe to play, however. I suspect that there are other problems, but without seeing the new algorithm, that is only a guess.
Scott,
Great paper. I understand most of what you wrote...not all. If I had the algorithm, I imagine it would be much more clear. But no matter: Chills down my spine! No kidding. Two of my favorite things, software and poker. I am jealous, what a fun project...
Mark
Scott,
I've been using Planet Poker as a teaching tool and found your posts and link fasinating. I do sense that Planet Poker attempts to make their site honest, but obviously intentions and reality may not coincide.
In their defense, they did refund a fair amount of money to our account based on an investigation of the problem. I will link to the security firms website to see if they can find other problems.
Regards,
Rick
They refunded money to your account? Does that mean someone actually WAS exploiting the problem and they caught them?
Dan,
Yes. They identified the problem in a cover email that they sent me. According to some chat from last night's 3/6 game, it mostly happened late at night in the 10/20. Some players seemed to know names (albeit screen names) based on their suspicions and the fact that certain players are no longer playing.
I'm convinced the owners are honest enough but this kind of thing may remain vulnerable to hackers. We will continue to use it as a learning tool as I can't imagine this happening at the 3/6 level.
BTW, the technical paper linked in one of the above posts is worth reading if you get a chance. Also RGP has quite a few threads on the issue.
Regards,
Rick
The archives of the poker forum are getting huge. Even though they are divided up monthly, they are huge. The July 1999 archive contains over 2,000 messages and takes a long time to load.
I am proposing that the browsable archives (except for the most recent archive) be discontinued in favor of an Adobe Acrobat PDF file containing all of the posts for a particular month. This file could be easily downloaded to your machine and read (and/or printed) using a free copy of the Adobe Acrobat Reader (available at www.adobe.com).
What you'd give up is the ability to browse the messages individually.
Since this is a rather big change, I am asking for comments on the idea. I will not implement any change until there has been a full opportunity for the community to discuss it. Please do not send me e-mail directly on this. It will be better if the discussion is here, on the Exchange forum.
Thanks,
Chuck
Chuck,
You and 2+2 provide a great service here. If making this change means you save either time or money, then go for it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
would the archives still be searchable by keywords? if not, then that would be a problem IMO.
Yes, with a more sophisticated search utility.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say that we could no longer "browse the messages individually." I take it that the PDF file would replicate the full month's archive, complete with index, so that after loading it one could (as now) click on a message from the index and go the message and thread. Right? Also, could you just load the messages in threaded order without the index? Also, consider that a more accessible archive could reduce the number of repeated questions and the time devoted to current posts, and would thus help control the size of future archives.
Otherwise, I'd echo what Greg said. Just don't lose anything.
When I first started reading here over a year ago I would go through the archives to get myself caught up on what had been previously posted.
I don't always read the posts here. From time to time I would like to go to the archives to "catch up" on past discussions. But every time I do it takes forever to bring them up and navigate, so I don't even bother anymore.
Any inprovement in my opinion would be welcome. Personally I would just like to be able to see every post, and all of the follow ups for that thread, in order, and then just read the ones that I want. In other words without having to click on each individual post. They are all just laid out in order. No clicking back and forth.
I haven't read here since the WSOP. I would like to go back to that point and "catch up." But I don't bother because of the hassles. Am I doing something wrong and is your proposal an improvement to what already exists?
What is a PDF file? Why do I need to download new software? If I do go through all of this will the access be quick, or quicker than it is now? Thank you for any response.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuck,
Could you guys just have and index of the threads and if someone wants to read a particular thread then download only the corresponding messages, as opposed to all of the messages and threads for that month?
carlos
Someone asked if the archives would still be searchable.Are they searchable now?
I think having a search feature would be most valuable. The postscript files might be ok to download after the search.
David
Hi Chuck,
I had written MM about separating the individual poker games into categories. At the top of the page before you put in Your Name up above it you would have different listings: HE X, 7CS _ , O _ ,O/HL _, Etc. by placing the games into individual categories immediately you can do a great deal more with the archives later on. You could combine months of O & O/HL, 7CS could probably be monthly. HE could be twice a month categories. The Key to archives is to start it at the initiation of the thread. For searching purposes you would be under 7CS and ask about 2 flushes on third street. Since you are already in 7CS this is no problem. By separating and dividing you conquer the archives. This would also make the researcher searching 7CS to easily access all threads on 7CS. If you are looking to start playing a new game like O8/HL you go to that column and read. Just my thoughts.
Paul
If the only problem is the load time then a different division of the archives could be used (say by the week the thread started). If you are going to post the information in a digest format I would argue that text is the primary format you should consider. A format like PDF is harder to manipulate and search over.
Chuck,
A lot of us don't have a feal for what the new acrhives would look like and how we would work with them. Would it be possible to take one month of the older (and smaller) archives and do the conversion so we can see for ourselves?
Anyway, things I believe that are important:
- we don't lose any posts or information
- we can cut and paste together the best threads for our notes and files.
- we are able to view threads in something close to the reverse threaded listing that we are used to even if we lose some HTML formatting.
I am also confused about the archives (which look like the original threads) versus the digest (which is a continuous document with all posts - I think). Which one are you talking about changing to PDF (if not both)?
Anything that would get them to load faster would be appreciated.
Regards,
Rick
Any one know anything about the 9-18 HE game at Ocean's 11? Is it usually a good game to play? (John, know anything about it? Also, how's the 8-16 game at the Village Club these days?)
I'll be in San Diego this weekend and was interested in playing that limit.
And I don't think my bankroll is ready to jump into the 20-40 game. So any leads for a good 9-18 or 10-20 game a appreciated.
carlos
Carlos -- My impression of the O-11 9-18 game is that it ranges from very good to just okay. On a weekend it might be especially good, but I don't really know as I never get there on the weekends. I was at VC a couple of days ago and the 8-16 looked good. Tough to predict which would be better, but I would think either should be good on the weekend. Call either place in advance though. Cardrooms here can be very unpredictable on weekends. Maybe the 3-day weekend will make them busier than usual. (I'd email you with more thoughts, but my ISP is having email problems at the moment.)
Could you please reveal to the group some of your secrets for getting along with people so well? I have known you for a long time and I am always impressed with your abiltiy to get along with everybody. I also believe that this has a lot to do with your very high skill of not going on "tilt" or getting upset or emotional when you play cards.
I've never seen you lose it. Not once. (Although there was a rumor going around that you did one time.)
I firmly believe that the best players in the world (you included)possess this inate abiltiy called emotional discipline. However, although it may come naturally to people like you, there are many, many poker players in the world that could improve their game greatly, if they only possessed this one character trait. Thanx Ray Happy fishing.
Bobby who?
there are a few on the forum that will not agree with you about getting along. i always try to treat everyone as an equal unless they spoil it and listen to what they have to say.
TWIMC,
LV was a drag as in "CIGARETTE". I played at the "Shoe" the den of dungeons. I had to shower after every session to get the smoke and sometimes drinks off me. The 7CS 1-5 game with no ante, produced me to come up with a name for these players "stalagtites". The players would piss and moan if they got low card because it would cost them a dollar. The game S-----. I did play O8/HL for the first time and that was fun, whether it was because I lucked out and had a good group or I was excited to play for the first time I don't know.
Thank you Jessica for that Metro Pizza suggestion. It was awesome. The best I ever had. They have a web site: www.metropizza.com There are three locations.
My next vacation will be smoke free cards for sure. I really think this is a problem for the non-smoker. If there are only 2 out of 8 smoking why do we put up with it?? I did go over to the Mirage, Bellagio, Orleans, Etc. the bottom line every table had a cigarette hanging out of it's mouth. Sorry to be bitching, but I won't go back to LV until the card rooms go smoke free. Like WGAF.
Paul
There is usually a $1-5 non smoking table at the Bellagio. Usually the one directly behind the sign up desk. My experience has been that often, even at the smoking tables at that level, people will get up to smoke. When you sign up to play $1-5, just ask for the non-smoking table.
Tom
It sure sucks to play in LV when you are use to California. 1) Binion's is on the bad end of things. Even the Orlean's is better. 2) I believe that there is a bias towards smokers at the 1-5 7CS tables. More old rocks with smokes hanging out of their mouthes then at other games. 3) I find it easier to get women to move their cigarettes away from me then men. A simple request or a gesture of waveing the smoke away from your face usu. does the trick.
Heh, O/8 is a riot. If you are playing low limit its pretty tedious but seems like a good way to (re)build your BR.
mph
Paul now you make good sense with this post. i agree.
While I can understand why someone not like second-hand smoke,a legitimate question arrises:JUST WHO OWNS THE AIR,ANYWAY?
Hi,
Does anyone know where I can order one of those portable fans that blow smoke away, over the Internet ?
Thanks in advance,
Andy.
I've created a PDF version of the May 1999 archive as well as an html version. For me, at least, the PDF version downloads just fine while the html version "stalls". This may have something to do with the slow link I have from home.
You can look for yourself. Here is the PDF version and here is the HTML version.
To read the PDF version you'll need a copy of the free Adobe Acrobat Reader available at http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/acrobat/readstep.html#reader.
Chuck
Chuck,
These late night comments might be a bit premature but I'd like to get the ball rolling anyway with a few thoughts and observations.
I updated Adobe Reader 3.0 to Adobe Reader 4.0 no problem via the website. In the past I have used Adobe to read online manuals and stuff and know the basics.
I downloaded the May Archive (actually it looks more like the Digest)in PDF format. The archive was 1,594,256 bytes in this format and took eight minutes to load using my ever deteriorating Earthlink ISP which really isn't bad for the length. Earlier tonight from another computer I tried to download the HTML version and it was incomplete.
Reading the 400 plus pages with Adobe seems pretty easy. I was also able to copy pieces to MS Word and the formatting was awkward until I used Auto Format and then it looked OK in my limited sample (I want to use MS Word to insert my own notes on key threads).
I do have a problem with the arrangement of the digest/archives that may have nothing to do with the conversion to Adobe PDF (I believe I noticed this in previous Digests). I'll try to illustrate the problem using the following example.
1. I copied the document to a file where the Adobe reader could read it offline.
2. On page 35 I saw a post by Dan Hanson titled "RE: slow playing top 2 pr?". This clearly was not the lead post.
3. Using the find feature in Adobe I found the lead post and some followups on page 26, 27 and 28. Then there was another group of posts on page 32 and then Dan's post on page 35. In between were unrelated posts.
4. Going back to the 2+2 website I called up the May Archives and got the message index. The message index has all the posts in the thread organized in the classic reverse threaded listing which is easy to work with (but time consumming to retrieve).
My question is "Why aren't the archives organized in the same sequence as the message index?" This format would make it a lot easier to follow the threads.
Anyway, thanks for your efforts so far.
Regards,
Rick
Chuck,
Couldn't resist trying to download the HTML version and it did hang up after about 200 kilobytes. I did get enough to note the same problem with the organization of the posts mentioned above. Also, if you have time to answer I am curious about the following.
Assuming the HTML version would load, would it be about the same size as the PDF version?
Why does the HTML version hang up but not the PDF version?
Regards Again,
Rick
Will there be indices for the finished Acrobat format archive files? In otherwords will we be able to use the search utilities available in version 4.0, or will we be limited to the Find function's bi-directional word search?
Andrew,
I'm still a little confused about Chuck's plan. I hope they will still keep the archives in both the linked web pages format (in which you load the index and one post at a time) and the Digest format, which I assume is what the PDF files will replace.
A way I would like to work with such a format would be to load the PDF Digest archives into a folder along with the corresponding message index. Then I could assemble key threads (deleting the junk) into a MW Word document and make notes and comments.
The problem is that, as mentioned above, the Digest messages (whether in HTML or PDF format) don't seem to follow the reverse threaded index in the archives. I'm not sure why this is the case.
I'm also confused as to why a PDF file loads without hanging up but the HTML file hangs up. Is the size that different or are there other factors. Not that it matters, I'm just curious.
Regards
Rick
An acrobat index is not the same as a forum index. The organization of a PDF file is presumably Chuck's decision. Chronological format would certainly be improved if there were jumps to each of the responses embedded in the document at the end of each post. At least the post numbers of each immediate response should appear at the bottom, while the post number of the parent should appear at the top so that one could Ctrl+F these numbers for the entire document. The threading aspect in some form really does need to be preserved, we are in complete agreement here.
Hi everybody!
I am traveling from Boston (Beantown that is!) Massachusetts to Jacksonville Florida. I will leave Boston on the 18th of October. First stop Foxwoods for some 10-20 to 20-40 7 Stud/Holdem play. Second stop, the Daimond club in NY City for some Holdem play. Third stop Atlantic City N.J. for stud/holdem fun. Fourth stop somewhere between AC and Biloxi Mississippi. 5th Stop Biloxi Mississippi for some Southern Comfort, I mean southern Holdem. Last stop Jacksonville Florida.
Trip: One Way. Trip time: 10 days. Mode of Transportation: 23' Class C RV.
Anyone interested in joining me on this trip please respond to me via e-mail. E-Mail address is leporeva@hotmail.com.
Vince.
10 days with Vince in a van? Sounds like a dream come true! (a very bad dream, that is). (o:~
Brett
3 Bet old Buddy!
Why if I knew you would go I'd keep the RV for 10 weeks! Talking poker with you would be the best way I know to keep my mind off the game! The laughs just wouldn't stop!
Vince.
If you make it to NYC by 6:00 on Monday night, there is a fun little O8 tournament ($10+3 buyin with unlimited rebuys for the first hour). Some people rebuy like crazy, so you can win over $400 for first place even if there is only one table! Tuesday night, there is a pot limit hold'em ring game starting at 6:00. It is a pretty good game, with only 2-5 blinds. Minimum buy-in is only $300, so it is a great and inexpensive way to take a shot at playing this challenging structure of poker.
You should call first if you are not already a member and ask for John or Billy. 727-1956. They are reasonable guys, but don't always welcome "drop-ins" with open arms unless a player that is present knows you.
Thanks!
Vince
If I spent 10 weeks with you in a van, Sklansky would be commenting on my "creative" posts. Of course, some of us talk about poker, and some of us play. ;-)
BTW, are you sure the doctors said it was OK for you to drive?
Brett
3 Bet,
I always liked Sklansky. So perceptive. But, believe me even I couldn't fix your hum drum posts in 10 weeks.
Vince.
Well, Sklansky is much more your contemporary than mine. Maybe when I get to be your age, my posts will be "creative" and they'll say "Brett is Brett"
Until then, I'll just have to be satisfied with being young and handsome.
Brett (maybe the only guy on 2+2 who would recognize Vince if he was sitting next to him. Of course, by then, it would be too late)
Until then, I'll just have to be satisfied with being young and handsome.
That you are my friend. That you are!
Vince.
BTW - Skalnsky lives better than me. He looks a lot younger.
For Betelgeuse and all others: I've just returned from 20 years on the west coast and the two best pokers rooms I've found in the Chicago area are Hollywood in Aurora and Harrah's in East Chicago. Empress in Hammond MAY stil spread poker, but the above two are my choices if I don't play in te Bay Area or Nevada. Any questions - e-mail me Bob
Empress in Joliet also has poker.
Unless there has been a very recent change, none of the Illinois Chicago Area casinos spread poker on Saturday. This is due to a combination of legal restrictions and management decisions.
Although legal restrictions were somewhat liberalized in the last legislative session, they did not remove the "1,200 gaming position" restriction which creates the incentive to close poker rooms on Saturday.
Thanks for your help, greatly appreciated and good luck.
I'm pretty sure Harrahs and the Empress in Hammond have poker on the weekend (I played at Harrah's yesterday). They are in Indiana but there aren't more than a 30 mind drive from Chicago.
So I think the 4 in the chicago land area are Harrahs, the Hollywood (in aurora), and the empress (one in joliet and one im hammond...)
Good luck
Perfectly legitimate question,Paul.
I've been reading, here and there, about Mr. S philosophy of expanding poker concepts into other areas and have enjoyed results. In that spirit, I have some questions: 1. Is there a shaddow government, which hides
truth about ufos, area 51, etc. 2. What's the story on crop circles? 3. Are there prehistoric monsters living in deep
lakes like Loch Ness, etc.? 4. Is there a "spiritual" e.g. extrasensory,
interconeccted, oceanic, component to human nature?
(all right, I've been listening to art bell)
My answers: 1 no 2 fakes 3 i doubt it 4 i doubt it
Respond or don't. Weigh in or igonre. Delete post if inappropriate. Thanks. Sorry. Etc. N.B.
I am trying to open a delta poker account. When I click download it won't let me download
email Joey at support@deltacasino.com
I am looking for copies of the old POKER PLAYER newspaper.Does anyone on this site have any old copies they might want to let go of?Quote me a price.
Even though I've played here since moving to Conn. last November, I only yesterday learned a rule here.
It's related to string-betting. In many clubs I've played in, if you come out with most of the chips needed to make a raise, and then go back to your stack to complete the raise, it's a raise. Many clubs have a specific "half or more of the raise" rule for these situations. At Foxwoods, even if you were to come out with 11 of the 12 chips needed to make a raise, and then went back to your stack to get that 1 extra chip, any other player in the hand can call a string bet, and you are ruled to have just called. If you announce "raise" anytime before your hand leaves your chips, then it's OK, and you can go back to your stack for more chips.
Normally, I always know rules like this. However, in 10 months of playing here, I have often seen people put out most of the needed chips, go back for more, and no problem. Apparently that's only because I never saw anyone get called on it before. I asked the floor for a ruling, and it's very clear that this is their rule. So, be sure to come out with too many chips, or say "raise" out loud.
I am also curious if anyone else who plays at this club was also unaware of this rule. Like I said, I simply never saw it applied in 10 months, because no player ever asked for it to be applied. Still, clearly my error.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
There are just a few semi-regular players who seem prone to invoking this, usually against non-regular players. Note that the dealers are not empowered to call any player's action a string bet. Thus it has become a bit of an angle for some. I personally prefer that if a player had intended to raise, that it stands as is. The player calling for a string also reveals information about the nature of his hand. This will almost always be a mediocre calling hand, but a marginal or bad cold-calling one. One time I was in a good 5-10 HE game with one of these *callers of strings* and deliberately made a string raise on the flop, which was promptly identified as such. Thing is, I wanted to convey the impression of strength without putting in a raise so that I would be able to take down the pot on the turn with a lead bet if a blank fell. Worked out as desired, so I do have some recourse with the rule violation nit-pickers.
Greg,
Yes I've had the pleasure of this being introduced to me at the tables at FW about 3 months ago. Since then I have seen it a number of times, I also saw it at the Horseshoe in LV. It seems it is becoming more popular, now that more people know about it. It has not happened to me since, because I either say raise or the amount or both when I'm going to bet. It can rattle your cage the first time, it did mine. Also because I was down at the time and the guy who called it on me I believe new I was the best player and he was having a field day so I was a threat to him.(PAIMH) It worked because it drove me out of the casino FW. I couldn't get it out of my head. Amateur I know. I thought I was the only one who didn't know that's why I never mentioned it. I think it's more prevalent in the 1-5 spread games because on the number of different bets 2 or 3 or 4 or 5. That's why I state the raise make it 8 etc. It works for me anyway. Hopefully you won't get strung out if you read this.
Paul
The casinos in Arizona have the same rule. It is rarely invoked, though. Every once-in-a-while, some nit will call it. I usually just announce the raise if I'm not sure that I have enough chips in my hand.
Brett
P.S. I'm suprised that the Horseshoe has the same rule, but who would want to play in that dump anyway?
Hey 3 bet,
Since when did you let rules, written or unwritten, bother you?
Vince
Vince, rest assured that if I'm ever in a position to call this rule on you, there will be no hesitation. Just listening to you whine would make it worthwhile.
Brett
I got called for this, the one time I played HE at The Oaks in the Bay Area, Haven't seen it anywhere else here.
David
Greg,
Is it true that getting a written copy of the Foxwoods rule book is harder than getting the plans for a W-88 nuclear warhead?
Regards,
Rick
I've heard this is so (i.e., that they simply will not give you a copy of the rules), but do not know it from first-hand knowledge.
My mistake was in simply going with the flow and not learning by asking. I am used to the rule that if you put out half or more of the extra bet, it is a raise, even if you say nothing.
At FW (and apparently a few other places) if you put out even one chip less than needed, it can be called a string-bet.
Clearly the lesson is to ALWAYS announce your raises (and calls) verbally, so there can be no confusion.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
What rule book? Like New England weather, if you wait awhile (floor manager's shift change) you'll get a different response. The floor ruling concensus would I'm sure be *raise intended* if made by a stranger in a 3-6 game (other than the small blind) splashing five whites, but if done by a regular at 10-20 a nickel short *string bet* for sure. So you see there's no need for uniform rules when their application will vary according to whim.
Greg,
I learned long ago in LV to always call the raise out verbally.
I have told my brother, who is an amazing 'home' poker player, who wants to start playing at Casinos, that he should a) Always call out his bets, and b) Protect his cards. I can see that protecting his cards is correct ALWAYS, but maybe he should make a few string bets so they think he is a sap Mark
I am planning a trip from Vegas to LA later this month. Are there any rules/customs I should be aware of in the LA area? Also what kind of food service is available at Hollywood Park and Crystal Park and how long can you be gone from the table? Thanks,
Randy Refeld
Hollywood park has a pretty extensive diner-sytle menu that can be delivered directly to the table (you can get massages at the table too.) Otherwise, there's a sandwich shop and a bar. You can be gone for 30min.
Tokes seem bigger. (In my 3-6 HE game there, $1 a pot minimum.)
TWIMC,
You can either call or email Kathy Raymond she is the Director of Poker Operations at FW. I'm sure she will answer all your ruling questions and how to obtain anything that you need. She is a very nice person and has helped me out on a number of occasions with my thousand questions. The phone # is 1-800-PLAY BIG and ask for her. Her email address is (KRaymond@mptn.org). Good Luck!!!
Paul
Please let us know if anyone actually gets ahold of these *official* FW poker room rules, either printed or otherwise. Kathy will give you specific ruling actions or interpretations, and answer questions as Paul suggests - but until I have at least seen such a rule book, its existance is dubious so far as I'm concerned.
Umm is there some point in all those IP addresses?
Yes. It makes it easier to tell who is posting.
Chuck
Chuck, I realize that this will help with screening some of the junk that has been going in the Forums. I also am glad that it can indicate when someone is spamming under multiple "names" (at least, it will until someone comes up with an IP address disguise program, similar to what they do with email addresses now)..
but, it makes the Forums a LOT harder to eyeball and scroll through now (at least the main pages)...
Suggestion- a link, instead, within the message header to allow someone to find out who the "person" is, exactly?
I'm getting a headache from browsing now... although the colored headers are a nice touch...
Good point! I think a reaonable compromise is that the IP address will show up on the individual messages, but not in the summary. I've already made this change.
Chuck
Chuck,
I'm not a TCP/IP wizard but isn't it true that when I dial up the ISP assigns a dynamic IP address from a pool of addresses to the connection?
So thus unique identification would seem circumstantial?
Depends on the ISP.
Recent r.g.p. posts suggest that light betting might be more of a problem than I thought. So if someone splashes a bet into the pot so that the dealer cannot reasonably determine if the right amount went in, why shouldn't that player automatically be required to put in an extra chip? I suppose that players might insist on counting down the pot, but splashing the pot should forfeit that right.
I have been persuaded to disable the posting of IP addresses. However, people posting to any of the 2+2 forums should know that if it becomes necessary to know the IP address associated with a message, I have access to that information after the fact.
Thanks for bearing with me as I've tweaked a few things over the last few days.
Chuck
I don't know what you're doing, Chuck, but I noticed that some of the "threads" in the archive now seem completely jumbled, with responding posts predating original posts and big chunks of threads dropping off and reappearing later. I'm also having trouble using the format selection menu. (For reference, I've been looking at Feb. 1999).
Chris- I can't comment on those changes- what browser are you using?
Chuck- With MS IE 5.0, everything looks great. I'll have to pay attention for jumbling, but my eyes thank you!
I take it from your note that you can dig for IP clarification when goaded to do so... go get 'em!!
Thanks for all of your work maintaining this, by the way... we as a group don't consider that enough.
Hello,
Recently I asked about the quality of the games in Oceanside's Ocean's 11 Card Club. I showed up last Sunday for some HE action. I sat down at a 4-8 HE game waiting for the floor to start the 9-18 HE game. The 4-8 game was pretty uneventful. Had one hand Ad8d in the button and the flop came KdTd8h. I played it a bit hard and a loose player who had raised 8c4c preflop spiked the 4 on the turn to win the pot with 2 pairs. Gotta love it! So I left the table down $20 or so. Not too bad I thought. Since I didn't notice any mistakes on my part.
Then sit down in the 9-18 HE game. I start out with a rack. I play 2 hands in the first 20 minutes and now I am down 1/2 a rack. It was amazing, but there was this guy that normally plays 20-40 HE, wearing a bermuda type shirt (I guess he likes to wear them since the next day he had another one), and would always reraise when in the pot, but he won this huge pot when he capped the action with a 97o and made a straight on the turn. I lost a pot to him when my 44 lost to his 23o (and he raised preflop, of course) on a board of 7235K. I checkraised the turn once I had the open ended straight only to be raised again. Once he left, the table was not on tilt anymore and the game became really tight and rather tough. It had been a long time since I had played in a tougher game, since most 9-18 and lower here in the Bay Area are not as tough. I noticed a lot of blind stealing and only 2 or 3 people seeing the flop on a raised pot. But I managed to get my buy-in back after 2 or 3 hours of play. Then I fluctuated between $100 ahead and $100 behind. Until I had this key hand.
UTG limped and all fold to me. I am on the button with 99 and raise. SB reraises. BB folds. UTG calls and I call. The flop came Qd9d9c. SB bets. UTG raises. I pause and call. Turn is the Kd. Not the best possible card, since I dont' have the nuts, but I was pretty sure no one had the TJd. SB bets. UTG calls. I raise. SB reraises. UTG folds. I reraise and we go 6 raises. River was an 8 and SB checks. I bet. SB calls. SB had QQ for the nut full house. But my quad 9's took the pot. I was ahead $150 at this point and decided I was tired after playing 5 hours or so. I went to the table where my friend was playing 3-6 (he is learning) to watch his play and give him some pointers.
The next day (Monday) I decided to play the Ocean's 11 tournament. It was a $50+$10 buy-in with unlimited $50 rebuys (T500) the first 3 levels, and a $100 add-on (T1500). The tournament started at 2pm. I didn't rebuy since I doubled my stack in the first 2 levels, only to lose all my 'profit' to this woman who kept outdrawing everybody. She amassed a large amount of chips, only to lose them in a matter of minutes once she was in the final 3 tables. So I end up the first 3 levels with my original amount of chips, T500. I add on, now I had T2000.
I play a tight aggressive game and slowly increase my chips. At some point it's the standard tournament play, tight and stealing blinds whenever possible. I get caught a couple of times, but manage to bounce back. I don't remember that many key hands from the tournament except the one that busted me out in 7th place. I had KQ on the button, a loose player raised and I decided to go all in. Maybe a bad play. But I was the 2nd shortest stack in the table and I figure that if I got a little lucky I could've taken all of this guy's chips and put me in good position. I got $970 for 7th. 6th paid $1150. 5th around $1300. 4th around $1500. 3rd around $1900. 2nd around $3000 and 1st paid $7,400. I felt it was worth making a move to make it to first place. It didn't work but I was still happy with my performance outlasting 122 entrants to make it to the final table. I left Ocean's 11 with a total profit of $950 or so for the 2 days I played there.
Carlos
KQo is only a 61:39 favorite over 2 random cards. When that person has elected to raise coming in from early position at the final table of a tournament, I doubt KQo is a favorite at all. Since you were the button, you could have gotten a look at 4 more hands before you were the big blind. I would have taken that look. You'll do better raising first in with JTo than calling here, because there will be a decent chance of winning immediately. I think you flipped a coin (at best) when you could have waited and likely found a better opportunity.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Are there any places that have poker lessons or seminars. I am new to the game and would like to take lessons from experienced people. Location is not an issue. Any response with details would be appreciated. thanks
WantToLearn,
Mike Caro is starting up his weekly classes again at Hollywood Park Casino in Los Angeles. I'm not sure of the exact day but let me know if you are interested and I will find out this weekend.
Rick
Just bring a few thousand to the mid-level games at bellagio. Everyone there will help you learn.
Brett
Bob Ciaffone gives private classes, check his website--I think this site has a link.
David Sklansky also offers private classes--pricey but likely worth it.
I guess it depends a bit on what game you see yourself playing.
I just wanted to mention that the new format of the Forums is beautiful! So much easier to use: less travel back and forth to the index; new posts easy to identify.
When was the last time anyone saw such nice end-user analysis on a web site?
Nice job!
The luckyLady cardroom in San Diego is starting a No-Limit Holdem game in San diego. The game will be on Mondays and Thurstays staritng at 1:00pm .The blinds are 3 and 5. The buy-in is $200.
Also, they have 15-30 holdem every afternoon with a only $3 dollar collection.
The online poker site, www.purepoker.com is giving a $100 tournament buy-in to all players who play 20 hours in a two week period,Details at support@purepoker.com
I am curious about how often and how long in a session does the average professional poker player play. By profesional I mean only those whose primary income is derived from poker winnings. Do they play eight hours a day, five days a week? I have always wondered about this and this forum is a great place to ask.
Thanks, Whitehackle
I play five or six days a week, anywhere from four to 10 hours a session. I think I averaged about 140 hours per month this year.
anyone care to give estimates of their win rates?
Currently three days a week. My mean session length for the past 100 sessions is 9.5 hours, with a median of 12 hours.
I play 7 days a week. 4 to 9 hours per session.
As the forum gets larger it might be interesting to investigate a rateing system for posts (like www.slashdot.org). This would allow the best posts to be found quickly and Mason could still moderate posts that didn't meet the standards of the community down to the level they wouldn't be a problem.
HI All-
("Mike" asked me specifically to post a trip report on Tunica........catching me by surprise....so here it is)
Well I have caught up on my sleep, cleaned the house and organized the family (4 slobs take over when I am traveling) and can now post a bit of a report.
I was most anxious to get back to Horseshoe Tunica and visit my many friends and play POKER!. It had been over a month since the Orleans/TOC and I was having poker withdrawal. Darn this living in the poker wasteland of WI. I had not been down there since Memorial Weekend and wanted to hear all the news since my last visit and also hear about their tournament success from early August.
Same great action as from Memorial Day. I arrived about Noon on Thursday and there were already two tables each of $10-20 and $20-40 Holdem. I was in heaven. I chatted with many friends, got a few hugs from the floor staff and sat down to play.
Action was strong, but I could not get any cards. I had the worst run of bad cards ever. Anyone who has played with me, knows that I come to play. For me to sit round after round and not play anything is very unusual. But that's what happened for 3+ days.
I got very few hands, and only a small % of them held up. I was battered, bruised and bleeding profusely. My occasional traveling companion "Karen" was with me and that helped keep me in perspective.
Karen and I play the same limits and same games, but try to stay at different tables as much as possible. Everyone knows we are friends and we don't want to create the specter of collusion. We play each other very hard, so that shouldn't be an issue if anyone is really paying attention, but still some people have commented on the possibility. What we usually do is show our cards at the end if we are in heads up and had been raising earlier when another person was still involved, so they know we have legitimate hands. Too bad we have to do that, but there have been grouches who have implied collusion and have asked to see our hands "every time" at showdown. That gives away more information than either of us would like about our playing styles.........so we try and stay apart as much as possible.
Anyhow......I lost and lost heavily for 3+ days. Karen and I would discuss it at breaks and meals. But she assured me I was still playing a good game, it was just bad cards. I just needed to stay in the game until the cards turned my way. We are good enough friends that if we are playing bad.....we will tell each other that we stink and take a break for a few hours. That must not have happened, because she kept encouraging me to just hang in there.
Well, fortunately that did happen on the 4th day. I finally got a good run of cards and racked up a $2100 win in $20-40 and then the final day won another $600 in the same game. Not enough to get out of the hole, but sure helped minimize the damage to my bankroll and restore some confidence.
Seems like the first few days on any poker trip I lose and then end up with a great run towards the end. I know I play better after several days and find it easier to hit the "zone" and where I can read others the best and make solid decisions........I just hate the pain and losses until I get there.
Players were gracious,and friendly as usual. There are a few grumps, but not bad. Floor and dealers keep players under control. My pet peeve is crude and profane language at the table. The dealers all know I object to it and do a great job reminding the offending players that "there is a lady at the table" generally one reminder is all it takes. I can understand someone who swears immediately after a bad beat, but cannot tolerate those who feel that f--k is appropriate multiple times in the same sentence.
But language was not a problem this trip. Comps were plentiful--just ask. Food gets served at the tables if you want from the snack bar and that menu is pretty varied. You can also get comps for the buffet for the asking and that is also a nice option. Karen and I try to take at least one meal together away from the tables, again to put things in perspective.
There are some great players in Tunica, some medium skilled ones, and some very poor (but wealthy) ones who like to play. Games are a good mix and get better as the day progresses. Early morning to mid afternoon on weekends is primarily the "regulars" who are tougher. But Friday nite and Saturdays, there are lots of recreational players with plenty of discretionary money to spend on poker.
Jack Keller (WSOP/Hall of Fame) is a fixture there on weekends in the pot limit game. He lives nearby. Not sure exactly why, but he also played awhile with us in a $10-20 Holdem game on Labor Day. Seemed odd to have him in our little bitty game. His sons Scott and Jack, Jr. also played with me some in $10-20 and $20-40 and Jack Sr. stopped by to watch the action before heading off to bed.
Local pro is Jerry Kyle and he is a fixture day shift Monday - Friday. Very nice, good for the game, but one tough player. He stacks and racks those chips consistently and his play is always solid. He is a great poker player and a good emissary for Horseshoe poker. Never gets out of line, polite, and a genuine nice guy. He has a good tournament record also, took 3rd at a Rio event last January and also won the Poker Dealers Championship at the 4 Queens a few years ago.
Rooms are $25 during the week and $35 on weekends. Combine that with free food (just tip the chip runner) and non-stop great games, you just can't beat it.
On this newsgroup I probably sound like a paid promotor of the Horseshoe because of the many compliments I have thrown out about Horseshoe Tunica, but that isn't the case. Anyone who knows me/has played with me, knows I am highly opinionated and give mine freely. You couldn't pay me enough to say something I don't believe. This IS a wonderful spot with the best mid-limit games I have ever seen.
From all I have heard, their August Tournament that ran 4 days was a resounding success. Don't be surprised if they put together a major tournament before too long. They have the talent and as we all know..........Jack Binion is committed to poker. His sister may not be, but Jack is. With this great property, a major tournament seems a natural.
Timing was everything during this long weekend. I happened to be there when the Cardplayer 9/3/99 issue came out. Many players saw Mike Sexton's column and nice comments about me and the Discovery Channel Documentary from the TOC. So many sweet things were said, that I was on a glow for the whole weekend (helped a lot with the pain I was feeling at the tables). Got to the point that one of my friends, Larry Evans, got a reputation as my press agent for telling everyone what a celebrity I was and "go check page 20 in Cardplayer". We had lots of fun with that. Thanks to Mike's column, my "15 minutes of fame" went on and on and on........
Despite the crushing loss I sustained (worst ever) I am ready to return at the very first opportunity to go back to Tunica. I know I can get my money back......or at least have a great time trying.
Diane from Green Bay
Thanks Diane----nice report. You really do like that place?
We had to cancel our Labor Day holiday run to Tunica (my wife is still mad about this) but might go on the Columbus Day weekend. Certainly will go back when they have the next big tournament.
Be sure to post the info here when you get the dates/air times on that Discovery Channel special.
Abe
Excellent report. I too enjoy the games at the Horsehoe, Tunica. However, if you have the patience for some low-limit action, there are folks, who have little or no experience with Holdem, in the other rooms of the Tunica area.
Don- I am sure you are correct about there being better games at low limits elsewhere. But I just don't enjoy playing the white chips game unless I am waiting for a seat in the bigger game.
I need the higher limits or a tournament to really get me fired up about poker and provide a challenge.
I also tend to get frustrated if the room is not managed correctly or if inconsistent decisions get made, etc. Never a problem with those at the 'Shoe. How well are the others rooms run?
I have played with Austin from Sam's town and don't like him as a player, so probably wouldn't like the way he runs his room. Pat from the Gold Strike seems nice, but not sure about the room other than hearing about the really loose Omaha/8 games.
I guess I like 'Shoe so much and have been told it is the only place with the consistent red chip action that I will stay there.
Thanks for your comments and I am glad you enjoyed the trip report.
Have we played together?
Diane
I am no expert on Poker room management. I would only notice something, which was way out of the ordinary. Haven't seen anything like that in Tunica. The dealers at the Grand are efficient and friendly. That's about all it takes to please me. No, I don't think I have played with "Diane B.", because although I live in Chicago, I play mostly in St Charles, Mo. (Station Casino), Tunica and Las Vegas. I just got back from playing at Bellagio (hope I spelled it right). The apprehension some folks feel about playing in Vegas is mostly unfounded, because the people I played with, paid for my trip.
Thanks for the reply.
Hope you are right about Bellagio current situation. I will be there September 23-27 with my hubby and another couple. We have rooms at Bellagio to facilitate playing as much as social schedule will permit.
Previous trips to Bellagio I found that the $15-30 game was tough and hard to beat. I certainly hope to change those results during this trip.
Will post a trip report when I get back.
Hey--Don, how about a trip report from your recent Bellagio experience? I for one, would enjoy it.
Diane
Sorry, no time for a trip report. However, if you have not seen the Mirage poker room, since the opening of Bellagio, prepare yourself for a pitiful sight--a bunch of empty tables. I don't know much about casino operations, but I suspect the room will be closed. The least they could do is remove some of the tables, because all those empty tables, make the joint, look really bad.
Don- Thanks for warning, but I have seen it myself on 3 subsequent trips out West. I was there in January, April, and July this year, so I know what you mean.
It is just a shadow of it's former self. I have heard from several people that they are going to reduce it down to just 18 tables from the present 31. I think that is a good idea and would create more of an atmosphere for playing poker. Now you could shoot a cannon off and not hit someone.
On the plus side, I did think that the games were softer swing and grave yard shift in $10-20 and $20-40 than what I found at $15-30 at Bellagio.......but games were always in jeopardy of breaking down.
Also I think Donna Harris is trying hard to hold players and offer more promotions. But it almost has an air of desperateness about it. She is very visible during evening hours and comps are lots easier to score.
But how many red chip players are there in that town? Binion's struggles with their $10-20 games also each day. So for right now, the only consistent $10-20 and higher action is at Bellagio.
So for this trip with my hubby and friends we are paying the premium to stay at Bellagio and be where the action is. But so far, I do prefer the Mirage.....I just wish it had enough mid-limit action to guarantee a ready supply of players if you trek over there. I hate going somewhere and not being able to get a game together. Especially when I come all the way from the frozen tundra of Green Bay!
I will post a report when I return and let you know what i find.
Diane
Does anyone know if any of the casinos in Colorado (Blackhawk and Central City) have a regular poker tournament. I seem to recall that one of them had a no limit hold'em tourney weekly. Please let me know and also whether it is any good (number of people, fees, payouts, etc.) thanks
Bullwhackers in Black Hawk has a NL tournament every Thur. at 7 p.m. The buy-in is $35 (including the $5 entry fee) and there are two rebuys of $30 each. I think there are up to 70 players and it pays down to 5th place. The rounds are 20 min. and first place usually takes down somewhere between $2200-$2500. It's a popular tournament with no reservations and first choice given to live action players, so you need to be there two to three hours in advance. (They also have smaller tournaments weekday mornings).
Just a curiosity. Since the bets are limited to $5. in Colorado, how do they spread a tournament with a buy-in higher than $5?
If you don't know, could you ask the next time you go there, and see what the Floorman says? You'll probably have to go to the top to get an answer that's anything close to accurate.
The situation reminds me of charity poker in Illinois. $10 cap on charity bets there. They started spreading tournament with higher entry fees. Noticed that no one seemed to care. So, they started offering special tournaments. For a $500. entry fee you got T5000. Played at limits of 200-400 for up to an hour. At the end of the hour, anyone with chips remaining was "in the money". Prize money was based solely upon chip count, with the winners getting $1 for every T10 they had. Thus, this was simply a $20-40 game with a limited buyin and no way to add to your stack during the game. At the end of the hour, everyone had to cash in their prize money, rebuy again, and start the process over. Just a ring game with extra hassles.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Bullwhackers Tourney has a rule that you can't go "all in" on the first hand since bets were capped at $5 and there are 4 betting rounds. I do not know any more details as this was casually explained by the dealer. But after the first hand (or 2) it plays normally.
BTW, the cardroom there is very nice, very large, and far away from slots and other games.
I'm sure you've all noticed that the forum has changed over the last several days. I believe that even the longest of the archives loads with satisfactory speed at this point.
I've also improved the digest form of the archives. The digests are designed to be downloaded to your own machine and browsed locally. Because of space considerations, I cannot keep both the message board version of the forum and the digests available. So I have elected to make ZIP files of the digests. When you click on a digest link (accessible via the "Archives" link on the left). A ZIP file will be downloaded to your machine. You will need a utility such as Winzip to expand the digest.
For an example of what the digest looks like, you can look at this link.
Comments are welcome.
Chuck
Chuck,
I had no problem downloading the zipped files for two months (each took under a minute). I copied and unzipped the files to a special folder. For each month I got three files. For example for June 1998 I got Jun98_msg.html, Jun88_main.html, and Jun98_idx.html. All are HTML documents viewable by your browser.
Anyway, the _msg and _idx files worked great, but the main files got the infamous "Page Cannot Be Displayed" message from the browser. This was true for both months I downloaded. Did I do something wrong and what does the _main file contain?
Regards,
Rick
Yes, you are right. I have fixed the problem. Try downloading an archive again.
Chuck
Any idea of where I can get ahold of WSOP or TOC on video? Also any news of ESPN airing this years or other poker play?
go to conjelco.com or call the horseshoe directly. They both sell the videos (WSOP). I would just call the horseshoe because conjelco will just forward your order to them. They are about $15 bucks each.
robert is probably right on, by the way dealing with espn is like pulling teeth to find out when they will broadcast any WSOP
Thanks for all your help!!
This is a strange "strategy" question, therefore I am putting it under "exchange".
I live 2.5 hours from a casino and dont get to play as often as I like. Other than a recreational home game I host, there is very little local action. However, I have recently been invited to play in a game, that has a "crazy" structure. It is local and I would like to play, but am concerned with the betting rules.
Games played are 7CS, 5CS, 5C Draw, also some "hi-lo" games. betting is "up to $10 per bet, with 3 raises. Basically a 1-10 spread limit game. The catch is that the ante is $5 per person. This is obviously high in comparison to a typical $1 +/- ante for a similar game in casino. Also, for what it's worth, I know one of the players thru business and don't have any reason to be beleive it is not a legit game.
My question: What general rules/guidelines/philosophy's should I utilize in a high ante game. Should I play more hands ? Steal more ? FYI, it will be a 6-hand game. Any help or comments will be appreciated.
I came across some RGP posts on Pat Flemming which said that he is banned lifetime from the Orleans however these osts did'nt say how he cheated.
Pat Fleming is a well-known tournament poker player. He has won several major tournaments and has several final table finishes at various WSOP events. I believe he has even made the final table of the championship. These are facts that can be verified.
He has been banned from the Orleans for life for cheating. That is a fact according to numerous reliable sources.
Now comes the "alleged" part:
Pat Fleming was caught on video tape slipping extra chips into the small buy-in weekly tournament. Apparently there are some weekly tournaments that have more chips than others and a player could give himself a major advantage by slipping a couple of $500 tourney chips from Friday night's tournament into a Satrurday tournament where the chips would give him a large stack. One guy on RGP says he knows a guy who actually saw the tape catching Fleming red-handed. Other "evidence" is also hearsay.
No one that I know of has spoken out on Pat Fleming's behalf to dispute the facts. Nor has he, to my knowledge. Draw your own conclusions. My vote from afar would be guilty as charged. I don't think it is the Orleans' interest to make unprovable claims of cheating and I think a reasonable person could assume that Fleming would offer some defense if he had any.
It may be terribly shocking news for some but I do have a beautifully designed booklet with the cover saying: "Foxwoods Poker Room Rule Book, copyright 1992".
If I remember correctly, at that time, a lot of these books was on display in the poker room for the benefit of anybody.
I've never opened the book as I fully agree with the recent Vince's post: "Since when did you let rules, written or unwritten, bother you?".
Alex
I would like to give you a complete quote from the FX rules relating to the recent string bet discussion:
1.4.4. "String bets" or raises are illegal. A string raise is the act of a player placing less than full raise in the pot and then returning their stake to get enouph cheques or cash to complete the raise without having announced the raise.
A player intending to raise, but not having enouph cheques and/or cash in their hand to cover a full raise, must state that they are raising before going back to their stake, and then immediately complete the raise.
Any player at the table, or the dealer may call string bet or raise, with the final determination being made by the dealer and/or floorperson. If it is determined that it was a string bet, then the action will be considered a call."
Alex
TWIMC,
If you wish to get a rule book plz read below.
There indeed is a rulebook for Foxwoods Poker Room. If you can forward me a mailing address,I would be more than glad to send you one. If not, on your next trip, please ask the Shift Manager to supply you with one. Talk to you soon Kathy Raymond Director of Poker Operations
Paul,
I will be sending you out a copy of the Foxwoods Poker Room Rulebook in tomorrow's mail. If you have any further questions, please let me know.
Kathy Raymond
Paul
I'm satisfied, since now I know at least one player actually has a copy of FW poker rules. I don't recall ever seeing them on display though, yet I've played there since opening week. Despite such a book, rulings on virtually identical incidents can and do vary from floor manager to floor manager. Presumably the *golden rule* is that all floor decisions are final.
I plan to go to Florida at the beginning of October. Are there places there to play poker, especially in Orlando ?
Welcome to Florida! E-me...I might be able to help you.
Is it worth getting a subscription to Card Player Magazine at $60 per year? (I am assuming 12 issues here) Is there a lot of content and is it different than their web site?
Thanks, Mike
I suppose you know the magazine is free just about anywhere you can play here in the US.
There is more then is on the web site and I would say it is worth a subsription if you don't have any other access to the places that have it free. There is much general information and advertisement about goings on in poker but just a few good strategy articles.
If it's your last $60 then don't get it.
D.
by the way, it's published bi-weekly, I believe. I'm torn myself between subscribing and getting the occassional issue in the casinos (when I get there).
Given the website and free issues available, don't know if $60 is worth it (doesn't cost THAT much to ship it!)
I live in WI and don't have access to a regular poker room. I subscribe and have for several years. I pay for the bulk rate which slows it down a bit, but after the first issue it always comes every two weeks like clockwork.
26 issues a year and it is a deal with all the poker information/strategy/tournaments etc you get.
My personal game is a lot stronger as a recreational player because of what I have learned in Cardplayer. I highly recommend it.
Diane from Green Bay
Diane is right (as usual) and Michael B should get the magazine.
I cancelled my subscription after a year to just read the articles on the web page (I'm so smart) but two recent problems have come up. The last issue had a write up about the Tunica Tournament. Where on the web am I gonna read that? Also note the forum discussion thread about the current issue articles by Cooke and Ciffone. Try reading those on the web page.
Abe
Well, I appreciate your feedback, but I think I am still undecided although I like the fact that I get 26 issues instead of 12. Maybe if I win big tonight I will write it off as a poker expense.
Thanks again, Mike
Come on Mike-----take the plunge! Assuming you don't have a closeby cardroom where you can pick it up for free. It will be the best $59 poker investment you can make.
Diane from Green Bay (Contrary to what Abe says, I am not ALWAYS right...but I am on this particular issue!!)
i suscribe to it too. but i get to write it off so it costs me only half price. you ought to at least find something once a year that makes you or saves you 50 bucks
Mike,
If I understand correctly from your posts where you play then there is no need to pay even that little. Go to a bigger cardroom and get it. As eventually you might find yourself there anyway, if you ever decide to move up. Don't be intimidated by the crowd.
I will be vacationing in Vegas at the Mirage October 21st through 25th. I am interested in playing in a 7CS tournament and found that the Mirage has a 7CS tournament every Sunday with a $120 buy in for $500 in chips and a $100 rebuy for $800 in chips. Do I have a shot at the prize money or is it for professionals only? If I decide to play should I rebuy and when? I have never played in a tournament, but am a winning casino play.
Thanks, Mike
Everyone has a shot. I have seen very weak, very novice players win tournaments. However, it should be clear to you that the better you are, the more likely you are to win.
As for the rebuy, I would rebuy EVERY time I play in this event. Rebuy when you go broke, or when the time period for the rebuy is over, which happens last. If you do not wish to rebuy, do NOT enter the tournament to begin with, as you'll be giving up too much.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I've played a few HE tournaments there in the past. You can only rebuy once during the first hour at the Mirage. Also, you can win a free entry into the tournment by playing the ring games when they run their power card promotion. Call the Mirage poker room for details.
Hello,
I would greatly appreciate it if someone would take the time to give me an idea of room rates in Tunica. I'll need a single room during the mid-week. I read below that the Horseshoe has $25 rooms. Is this the poker rate ? If so, what is the regular rate ? Any other, possibly non-casinos that may have inexpensive weekday rates in case I don't qualify for a poker rate ? Thanks.
Steve
Steve- $25 is the poker rate. Don't know what the regular "rack" rate is. Not sure what the minimum number of hours it takes to qualify. (I play 16-18 a day, so it's a non-issue for me)
Diane
The Grand offers a $25.00 poker room rate after 5 hours of play, make sure you put your name on the list, if you are planning to play on the weekend.
i've bought a number of books from two btty two. it seems to be a truism that a smart poker player can do well in a casino. however, i'm a little confused.
if you could be so kind, i'd like your opinion on the following: i have no interest in regular casino gambling, trying to buck a fixed house percentage. however, over the years i've done very well playing non-casino poker.
a while back i bought wilson's 7-card stud software (vers 2). i played around with this a lot & try as i might - after deducting a house rake -- i can't show a profit (i'm using 10% of the pot, with a $4. maximum & a .50 tip) the game is 5-10, with a $1 ante.
i've set it up so i have the strongest player against weak player, but after 500,000 deals, it first shows a profit, but then always shows a net loss for the strong player after the house rake is deducted. - it averages about $2.50 per winning pot
is it me, the software program, or is it simply impossible - over the long run - to beat the house rake no matter how well you play????
i’d really appreciate your knowledgeable opinion.
thanks, john
This shouldn't occur unless there aren't enough players in your hypothetical game. You're not playing heads-up, are you? Unless the range of skill among the Turbo stud profiles isn't significant, experiment with different rake levels, betting levels and profiles and email Wilson if your results still appear anomolous.
What you have shown is that the strongest of the Wilson profiles can not beat a typical casino rake against the weakest Wilson profile(s). There is no correlation to a thinking human player beating a typical casino rake. The truth is that any player who can consistently beat a casino's rake should even more easily beat a table full of the strongest of the Wilson profiles. About 5% of all casino poker players are skilled enough to show a profit after rake for a minimum of 500 hours of play; anyone can get lucky for the short term.
I think the rate of players capable of beating the rake is higher than 5%. After all, beating the rake requires winning less than a small bet an hour in a bigger game and maybe about 3 small bets in a smaller game. Bad players tend to give up much more than the winning players take off the table so it reasons to me that at least 1 in 10 should be long term winners, or in other words, just about every game should have one winning player at it. Of course another factor is that good winning players dont play in unbeatable games for long. They have a good innate sense of what is a beatable game and what is not. Remember that being a winning player doesnt necessarily mean being a pro. Being a pro requires quite a bit more skill and if that is what is considered, then sure under 5% have that. I am pretty certain however that if you took a sample of players in an average card room, closer to 10% would be at least small winners at year end.
Hey All: Duplicate of post I made on RGP:
Played From 6PM to 6AM. (What can I say.)
$3 button charge for 3-6 & 5-10 holdem $5 half hour seat charge for 10-20... similar for 15-30, I think...
Was a lot of fun... 10% of the dealers are good, another 30% were competant, rest have some ways to go. But it was a good attitude all around, and they tried. I was told they pounded through the class from 2am to 6am for just a few weeks.
As far as my results, the very clueless players skinned me alive, cracking my top pair hand after hand... :-) I lost $200 at 3-6 and another $300 at 5-10, winning 4 pots in 7 hours. Then the clueless players went home, and I spent my morning grinding back to even at my favorite table type: a few solid, a few mediocre and just a couple clueless. (For the record, as I know a couple of my tablemates probably read rgp and TwoPlusTwo, I consider myself on the very upper edge of mediocrity. :-))
Lot of fun, 1st time I've played cards at the stone since I got the blackjack boot.
Zooey
P.S. I take it all back. people are boring, no action rocks, definitely not worth the trip for any positive ev players. :-)
There is an interesting explanation on paradise poker's web site about the right way to electronically shuffle cards, given the recent problems found on other sites, has anyone read it?? I find it very interesting for one thing how many different possibilites for shuffles there are and how difficult it is for a computer to do it.
Maybe they could have robots attached to the computer that shuffle the deck mechanically and then read it to the computer?? :-) or toss the deck in the air and then pick up the cards? I don't see the big deal, perhaps someone can explain it??
And is paradise poker doing it right?? or can it be beaten??
Juan Carlos.
There are (or were) three issues with the others...
1) Knowing the shuffle algorithm and compiler used to develop the software it was possible to write software to determine what all the cards are for a given hand.
This problem has been fixed and it is much more difficult for someone to cheat the system.
2) The second issue is that the way the ASF Software (used by Planet poker & Delta) random number generator only allows for something like 4 billion different shuffles. However, there are actually 2^225 different shuffles possible. These means that it is NOT possible for all possible shuffles to occur.
This may also present a problem with a game like 7 card stud. With more cards known, the limited number of shuffles mean the potential for someone to be able to write software to determine who has what cards.
3) Another issue is that the ASF shuffle is actually very simplistic. All the system does is take the deck (ordered like a brand new deck), then take the first card and swap it with another card in the deck which is randomly determined by the random number generator. Then it takes the second card and swaps it with another card in the deck (again randomly determined). And repeats that process with cards 3, 4, 5 thru to the 52. And that's it! I suppose it works but I'm not convinced it's good enough.
The Paradise Poker software claims to deal with all these issues. ASF Software has addressed the first issue, but not said anything (so far as I know) about the other two issues.
Hope that is reasonably clear and helps
rjk
I have a degree in computer science, so I'm somewhat qualified to answer.
Planet Paradise's website says that they shuffle the deck 10 times. This is generally not a good idea. One shuffle with the proper algorithm is sufficient, and shuffling more times could be worse. This is because most random number generators repeat after a while, so all you are doing is making the random number generator repeat more quickly. On the other hand, they probably should shuffle or otherwise run through their random number generator between hands, with the next hand dealt the millisecond that the last action of the previous hand is dealt. This is the method that slot machines use to be less hackable - their random number generator is constantly spewing random numbers until you finally pull the slot handle.
Their website makes a big woop-dee-doo about using a seed with a large number of bits. I'm undecided about this one. The thing is, if you use the state of the previous deck as the initial state of the next deck prior to the shuffle algorithm, then you tremendously boost the number of deck states attainable. This makes the game fair, so their claims about their large number of bits making the game fair makes me nervous, as they may be reinitializing the deck to its initial "new card" order each time, which would be a mistake. On the other hand, the large number of bits should make it unhackable, so that someone cannot figure out where in the random number sequence they are currently and then start predicting future hands with 100% accuracy.
They never state their actual shuffle algorithm, and this is of paramount importance. It's easy to fall into the trap of constructing a biased shuffling algorithm, where a form of shuffle-tracking could be possible no matter how good their random number generator. It would be extremely amusing if they fell into this trap. I've posted an extremely fast and unbiased shuffle algorithm in the past on rec.gambling.blackjack, an incremental version of Knuth's unbiased shuffling algorithm, and Mike Caro recently posted the same algorithm on rec.gambling.poker.
-Abdul
Adbul,
I know just enough to probably ask a dumb question. Here goes anyway. On Planet Poker I believe the hackers were able to figure out the seed since it was based on the number of miliseconds since midnight which they could synch on.
When getting a seed for a RNG, why not base it on something totally unpredictable. For example, let's say I am last to act on a hand in Planet Poker (e.g., showing my hand when acting last and I have a winner). When I hit the mouse to click on SHOW, the internet message packet travels back to their server in Costa Rica using a totally unpredictable path (to my knowledge) plus no one can know how fast I am when I click the mouse. Thus, it will arive at their server at a time that can't be known to an outsider.
Is there any logic to my thinking?
Regards,
Rick
About 6-8 mos ago I signed up to play at PP. Initially playing 3-6, then 5-10 I slowly built up a bankroll to $1200 from only a $100 initial deposit. I then moved to the 10-20 tables. Something very fishy happened that made me cash out and leave PP. While UTG on a particular play with pocked Ks,I raised preflop, had 2 callers, then a raise from a player with a big bankroll. I reraised, and then the big bankroll player capped it. Flop comes xxJ (no flush possilities). I bet, other callers fold, then big bankroll raises. I call thinking he has AA. Turn is a 6. I check, bb bets, I call. River is another 6. I check, bb bets and I call. Big Bankroll turns over j6 offsuit to take pot with fullhouse. Unbelieveable. I cashed out what I had left and never played again.
It is stories like yours which we are trying to prevent. We have spent many hours during our software development phase trying to ensure that no player or players have any advantage over other players, other than their own poker skills. We believe paradisepoker.com accomplishes that.
You may wish to try writing to the support department at the site you were playing on. There is a chance you can get your money back, especially now that their flaw has been so well demonstrated.
We believe it's in the best interest of the entire industry to ensure that shuffling is done correctly. We'd like to be the best of course, but when other sites do it wrong, it reflects badly on the industry, and therefore on us.
First, I see crazy people play hands like this all the time.
Second, if he was going to cheat you why would he pick a hand that was so obvious. For instance, I would wait for an ace-king that I knew would get there and cap it with that. Now you would never suspect a thing and just think that I overplayed a good hand.
MM wrote: "if he was going to cheat you why would he pick a hand that was so obvious."
Because a lot of cheaters are greedy people, and a lot of greedy people don't have enough patience (or sense) to just wait for good opportunities. They go for the money ASAP.
Besides the fact that many crooks are dumb, I believe that the above reason has a lot to do with the fact that so many crooks are caught. They don't have enough patience to only commit low-risk crimes, and go for any crime as soon as it looks doable. Any crook with average brains and good common sense would probably never be caught (and if he was caught, it would be because someone else ratted him out, not because the police caught him directly).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Except that this guy is cheating by having done a hell of a lot of programming work. That would suggest some patience.
That amount of patience was absolutely required. He couldn't cheat at all until he wrote the program. Once he had his tool working, he may not have the patience to wait for "non-obvious" opportunities to cheat. After all, if he does that, he won't win as much without working longer, right?
While there are probably many exceptions, I'd bet that the vast majority of crooks are lazy and lack patience. I say this if for no more reason than if they applied themselves at a legitimate job as much as they need to be good crooks, they could do as well in the real job and not be in danger of getting caught.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I have seen this happen in cash play at 20-40 limit, it happens everywhere.
On machines that are real serious about randomness, they'll sometimes do things like have a circuit connected to the power line that read the random noise level and uses that for a seed.
The whole field of randomness in computers is fascinating, and even very smart and experienced people often get it wrong.
Of course, if they really wanted to reasure the numerate-types out there, they'd dispense with the PRNG altogether and go with a true RNG.
Personally, I like the Lava Lamp(tm) RNG...
I've enjoyed participating in the discussions here of late. If I recall correctly, on September 15 Mason's promise to not censor messages runs out, and thus my computer will turn into a pumpkin at midnight and I will be unable to post. So, goodbye to all, and I'll see you on rec.gambling.poker. Does anybody know of a good website for sports betting discussions? The "Other Games" part of 2+2 had some good sports discussions, whereas rec.gambling.sports is a vast wasteland of idiots.
-Abdul
Abdul,
Thanks for the HTML tips but I only have time to learn each formatting command at the rate of about one per week which should make me a webmaster in Y3K.
Regards,
Rick
P.S. Stick around. All your posts have been no worse than an "R" rating as far as I can tell. I think even Mason wouldn't be offended.
Abdul,
You have more acronyms in your posts than sand on the beach. You can run, but you can't hide, you'll be back. Thanks I really enjoy your posts, at least it makes me think in a different light, concerning a question. If your "R" I don't want to know what I am.
Paul
Seat Open!
Brett
Abdul Should Stay:
Question---What would the acronym be for that? Answer-----"R" rated, but probably not deleted.
I hope you do keep posting here, Abdul. What a show of good will that 2+2 has a link to your PosEV page. Now, how about a "Guest Essay"?
Abe
Here's another vote that you stick around. I've always read everything you've had to say about gambling and gotten good value from it.
If you are looking for another sports discussion, there's a pretty good sports section on the Green Chip sports page over at bj21.com, but I don't know if you're a green chip member.
I'll put in my $.02 too (pretty much all of my bankroll right now.) Don't leave, Abdul, you'll be missed.
I am a little confused here. Surely Abdul does not think that he made any posts during the last month that Mason would have otherwise deleted had it not been for his promise. (not counting the one where Abdul implies that I might be an attorney rather than a gigolo). Thus I must assume that he thinks he could not contain himself indefinitely. But then why did he not put up these terrible posts, whatever they might be, during this period when Mason promised to do nothing about them? I guess it is because of a sense of honor that I myself do not have. Had I been given the carte blanche that Abdul was given I would have had much more fun. In fact I was looking forward to reading some really juicy nasty posts about us this month from many of those rgp people. I guess it just goes to show that things lose their allure when they are not forbidden. Now the only reason for Abdul and others to post here is that they might learn something that might make them a lot of money. Again I guess only I care about crass stuff like that.
Does this mean that we can't cross-post the "animals up my ass" and "bigger balls" threads here?
Brett
Abdul, read my post suggesting a Vegas forum for sports bettors. I personally have read some of the stuff on the green chip pages and find a lot of it junk. The reality I think is that people would rather hype and beat their chests when talking about sports betting. The more I see this, the more I realize that Ray Zee is right, that sports bettors are not a particularly smart bunch compared to poker players. To much of green pages and most other places on the net for sports is just who I like this weekend and kiss my ass if you disagree with me. Just the things we dont need in a real sports discussion. So please stick around and be my ally as I try to gather up some serious bettors who want to talk about their craft in order to improve themselves and their bankrolls.
I agree that a lot of that goes on on the green chip pages, but there are also a lot of serious people there who would engage in a quality discussion if it started. Much like this board. Mind you, I'd rather see the discussion stay here as well.
I wish we could just leave it here, but it always gets buried quickly with some guy telling you who he likes this weekend. To make it worse some other genius decides to chime in with how that team is 63% likely to cover based on how they have done on grass fields the last 7 years. Then another adds that he will only play it after he wins his 5 teamer that is a sure thing...etc. No serious discussion, no real handicapping, just alot of well I will be nice and share my picks with you, which happen to go 70% every year, or at least they do in my dreams. I posted a long message on halftime betting and wrote things I have never seen in print before and got a nice comment from Ray Zee and little else. Some other guy posts two plays on preseason football and gets 16 posts to follow him up. That just is best left to newsgroups where every post is like that. I want people to respond, to think, to add, and even better yet, to tell me they think I am full of ****...but in any case I want some discussion on these topics because it will make me and everyone who participates a better handicapper in the long run.
Your post is good,it will make people who think get better but what I think people also need is how to apply all the theory to work. Let give some example of a game that you like this week and explain why you come up with that team(I think you mention DAVE MALINSKY whom I respect,he picks a game and also a reason behind his picks). There are many THEORY and INFORMATION out there what people need to do is put it all to work,like ROXY said anybody can get INFORMATION what important is how you interpret it. P.S. are you the same WILD BILL who run SILLY SPORTS INC.?
WildBill,
If you live in the NE you don't have the luxury of gambling at a sport's book. You have to deal with the 1/2 hr window to make all your decisions, getting a busy signal, etc. I would loved to have commented on your article, but I DNS (Don't Know Shoot) about the bet because I deal with bookies, sometimes I can bet middle's due to different spreads at the beginning of the game, but even then you have time against you and it makes betting sports frustrating I won't be back to 3pm or whatever. Getting different lines from different bookies, sometimes aggravates them because they know your betting somewhere else if you don't call back. I've been on both sides of this coin and neither one is better than the other when one of your so called good friends doesn't pay you. Maybe someday the NE will wake up and have sports books, where you can spend an afternoon and watch football or whatever. Bill don't think that the article wasn't appreciated, I showed it to my friend and he said wouldn't this be a nice option to have or just to think about while watching the game.
Thanks Again WildBill Keep Writing
Paul
as far as that "animals up my ass" post i don't know whats more disturbing, wanting to shove a live snake up your ass or the 40 someodd people who responded ;)
My god first JFK and now Abdul. How do we baby boomers survive these unmentionable tradgedies. Abdul, to say you will be missed is an understatment. But please do not play us for suckers (or fish, your term). If you were really concerned with your posts being deleted you would force the issue and post one you felt Mason would delete. Then you could return, the hero, to RGP. I for one am not biting.
Bye!
Vince
Hey All,
Now that a poker room opened 30 minutes away, I have decided to start keeping records. My question: I realize the best way would be to keep hourly records, but what about by session? Obviously, weighting mean ev by hours played is trivial, but what about SD?
In other words, given a series of times t_i and results r_i, what is the formula for SD/hr?
Thanks,
Zooey
(currently at 2.000 BB/hr after 15.5 hrs. :-) )
"Mom, are we statistically significant yet?"
See the essay: Computing Your Standard Deviation by Mason Malmuth in the Essays section of this web site.
The easiest thing to do is to set up the formula in that essay in a spread sheet.
Technically you are "estimating" your standard deviation rather then calculating it because the data is in a form with various amounts of time played but you want the SD per hour not per session.
David
during a pot-limit comp, i held pocket 66s in mid position there were six players to act after me my chip count was 6000 & the blinds were 1200.
out of the remaining players there were big stacks & a couple of very open types to act.
i folded the hand hoping for either a better hand or a better position option.
i would like to hear any veiws on this play.
many thanks,
peter spencer
Peter,
This is a first. This type of post belongs on the Theory and Strategy Forum. The Exchange Forum is for misc BS.
Regards,
Rick
I knew there was something wrong with this post, I just couldn't put a finger on it.
I am leaving Fri for LA from Vegas. How much do players typically toke in LA; I understand there is no silver in the pot and I can't imagine toking a dollar every hand; 50 cents is my normal toke.
Most cardrooms in L.A. have $.50 cheques with which you can toke.
I haven't seen ANYbody use a 50 cent chip to tip a dealer, in ANY L.A. casino, since jacks-or-better was the norm.
Which is the lower hand? A,2,3,3,6,7,T. (no flush) or A,2,4,5,7,8,T. (no flush).
A home game I play in plays it one way and a computer program I have plays it the other way.
Which is correct?
Thanks Bill
The A,2,4,5,7,8,T is a 7/5 low which is a winning low versus the A,2,3,3,6,7,T which is a 7/6 low. Whether or not a flush exists is irrelevent in determining the low.
Not so fast, Chin Music. If we are talking about casino poker, flushes and straights don't count, the wheel is the low hand.
However, if you play 6-4 low, or Kansas City lowball (7-2 low), then straights and flushes DO count and block having a low hand with those cards... Bill, best hand is 6-4-3-2-1 or 7-5-4-3-2 (aces always high) for the examples I listed.
Of course, neither means anything in this case... As Greg said, unless you're playing in a game where PAIRS don't count (in which case you're playing a game such as Points), the 5 lowest unmatched cards make the hand.
By the way, Bill- if your computer game plays that pairs don't count (and you didn't set it up that way), throw that game away IMMEDIATELY!
In any casino I know, the second hand is lower. It's 5 lowest (unpaired) cards are 7542A. The first hand's 5 lowest cards are 7632A. The first hand is considered lower because it's a 75 high, which is lower than a 76 high.
If you place the cards in the above order (highest down to lowest), and think of it as a number (75,421 is lower than 76,321), it will be easy.
I see 2 places where someone may be guilty of fuzzy thinking. The 7632A hand has a pair of 3s, and maybe someone is saying the the 5 lowest cards are 6332A. If so, pairs can't be played for low in most casinos (well, they can, but they lose to ANY unpaired hand). The second potential error may result from someone thinking that the 7632A hand is lower because it's best low cards (the 32A) are lower than the 42A of the other hand.
Another strategy is to remember that aces are low, and ask yourself, which of the two hands would win in a contest for hi (ignoring straights and flushes)? That hand (7632A in this case) will lose for low.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Could somebody explain something to me? In any poker game (7CS, Hold 'em, etc.) one of the basic principles of the game is to "invest" in the pots wisely and don't "lose" all your money doing it. I would think the better test of tournament poker skills would be when all start with one fixed & equal amount of money. I am an avid golfer and play in many tournaments (about a 4 handicap). In golf, re-buys are known as "mulligan's". REAL golf tournaments DON'T have mulligans. Corporate, fun, outing, novice type tournaments that use a "scramble" format offer mulligans (replay of shots). This is because it is a "funzy, cutsy, gimmicky, tea-party" that appeals to the "once a year golfer". To me, part of competitive golf is knowing that EVERY shot counts. I would think that competitive people in pokler would treat every chip as important.
I'm sure I am missing something? Could somebody tell me the reasoning behind giving somebody a "2nd chance" buy allowing re-buys.
Jack
Unlike regular sports like Golf where you have major corporations sponsoring them, poker is funded by the players. Rebuys are prize pool builders. The events that don't have rebuys are usually much more expensive.
The goal of a tournament is to either make money from the tournament itself (rare) or to attract players into the cardroom in the hope that they will play before/after the tournament (and maybe be more inclined to come back next time as well).
Rebuy tournaments attract more players. Maybe because player A wants to play, but only for $100., so he can just not rebuy, while player B wants a shot at winning thousands, so he can rebuy and increase his chances.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I've been quiet about this issue for the last few days while discussing the matter privately by email with Abdul. Here are the results of our discussion:
We're trying to provide the best online poker experience possible and we don't want to get bogged down in shuffling discussions, but we recognize that it can be a cause for concern to players, and therefore I'd like to discuss the issue briefly.
Our shuffling algorithm is indeed Knuth's full shuffle (not the incremental version, for reasons you'll see below). We do have it posted on our web site (without exact source code) near the bottom of the http://www.paradisepoker.com/integrity.html page. I'll see about getting that page updated to include a reference to Knuth.
In addition, I'd like to explain why we did not use the algorithm Abdul and Mike Caro have both posted... I think it contains a slight bias. Now I know those can be fighting words, so please let me explain...
The bias is inherent to the random_range() function, which I presume is supplied by the compiler. It gets used in the algorithm like this:
slot := random_range(1,cards_remaining);
Then you deal the card in that slot and put the first undealt card in the deck into that slot.
random_range() is usually implemented something like this (I write in C++, so I've supplied C++ code):
int range = range_high - range_low;
int result = (rand() % range) + range_low;
where rand() returns a random number between 0 and RAND_MAX.
Let's go through the math for the first card to get dealt (i.e. when cards_remaining = 52)...
For the purposes of demonstration, let's take a rather extreme example and assume the underlying random number generator returns numbers between 0 and 63 (i.e. RAND_MAX=63) Most are really 0 to 32767, the one we use at www.paradisepoker.com is 0 to 2 billion+ (2^31-1)).
Now since I think in C, I'm going to do things based from zero rather than from one...
For random_range(0,cards_remaining-1), here are the outputs given all the results from rand(): rand() returns 0 produces random_range() of 0 rand() returns 1 produces random_range() of 1 rand() returns 2 produces random_range() of 2 rand() returns 3 produces random_range() of 3 ... etc ... rand() returns 50 produces random_range() of 50 rand() returns 51 produces random_range() of 51 rand() returns 52 produces random_range() of 0 rand() returns 53 produces random_range() of 1 rand() returns 54 produces random_range() of 2 ... etc ... rand() returns 62 produces random_range() of 10 rand() returns 63 produces random_range() of 11
As you can see, the output numbers from 0 to 11 showed up twice, while those from 12 to 51 only show up once. That's a pretty serious bias to the low 12 numbers. That means that the first 12 cards in the deck would get dealt first more often than the rest of the cards. With a fresh deck, that's very predictable, with the same shuffled deck as you used last time, it's merely the same first 12 cards as last time.
Fortunately most rand() functions have more than 6 bits of result, however even at 15 bits of result (the most common with C compilers), there is a definite bias towards the first 8 cards in the deck.
At Paradise Poker, we chose to use a 31 bit rand() function (coming from a 2016 bit seed that has entropy constantly added to it), thereby decreasing the bias even further (by a factor of 65536), as well as shuffling the deck more than once. We found that shuffling twice removes 99% of the bias, and shuffling 3 times makes it pretty much immeasurable, then we decided to triple it for good measure and bump it up to 10 times to keep the marketing people happy. These two changes result in a shuffled deck with no detectable bias.
We welcome comments on this issue. I think it's best for everyone if we have a good understanding of how to shuffle a deck of cards in a completely unbiased fashion.
Sincerely, Mike
Paradise Poker's random number guy
As an aside to this, one thing surprises me. Wouldn't fair shuffling systems be all worked out for the video poker machines by now, and if so, can't those algorithms be used for dealing poker?
If the flaws we're discussing in the old system used by Delta and Planet Poker are in video poker machines, why hasn't someone figured out a way to use those against the casino?
Can someone enlighten the computer illiterate?
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
For those who said they were interested... we've updated our web site to be more specific about the various algorithms used in our software.
See http://www.paradisepoker.com/rng.html and http://www.paradisepoker.com/shuffling.html for the details.
We also got around to doing the math regarding a seed of only 32-bits (this is why we use a 2016 bit seed):
Adeck of cards can be shuffled 52! differenct ways (approx. 8*10^67, or 2^225). To attempt to shuffle a deck of cards using merely a 32-bit seed like some of the other poker software does, results in at most 4 billion combinations. That's merely 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000005% (or 5*10^-57 %) of the possible ways to shuffle a deck. Clearly inadequate.
paradisepoker,
Aside from unbiased shuffling, I am concerned about collusion, via seperate phone lines between two players at the same table, or signals via "player chat".
Tom D
Casino Rama will open Texas and Omaha tables sometime in Nov once their expansion is complete. I am told that Niagara will follow suit early in the new year. The government casinos were reluctant to give up space from the slots, but new room means Rama wants to get the jump onthe border casinos and that is forcing the others to do the same. Rama is supposed to have 10 - 20 tables depending on space alloted.
Do you know of any plans to have poker in Winsdsor? If you find out, please post the details. Thanks.
My contact works at Casino Niagara. He feels poker will be there Feb or March. Windsor, he speculates, could be anytime - next month or a year, depending on how its management sees it as a a tool to compete with Detroit.
Rama is the only 1 I know for sure, since I received a mailing just today advertising it that backs up what my friend said last week.
The tables as far as I hear, will be roughly 30% 5-10, 50% 10-20 and 20% above.
Well, it's about time!
Will they have limits smaller than 10-20? Have you heard any word on poker at the new Brantford Casino?
Windsor just removed two pits of table games upstairs and replaced them with slot machines. I could be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But this doesn't look like management is going in a poker direction.
I was wondering which book would be better for tournament no limit hold 'em: Tournament Poker by Tom McEvoy or Championship No Limit & Pot Limit Hold 'Em by T.J. Cloutier & Tom McEvoy? I would like to start playing in the weekly hold 'em tournament ($40 buy-in, rebuys??) at the local Casino. If anyone has a different suggestion for a tournament no limit hold 'em book, please let me know. Here's what I'm looking for in a book: I've never played no limit, so it would have to cater to the beginner, (starting hand requirements, playing with a short stack, making a deal IF I reach the final table, dealing with the different types of players (rocks, maniacs, calling stations, etc.)), playing heads up, etc. Thanks in advance for any feedback.
James Flames
Unfortunately, there are, IMO, no good books yet written on tournament poker.
However, the book by Ciaffone and Reuben on NL and PL poker (which has little mention of tournaments) is a very good book. I would use that book, or Super/System by Brunson, to learn the concepts of NL poker. Then, I would apply my normal tournament strategy with those concepts in mind.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Tools needed:
Super/System by Brunson--Excellent book for learning NL
No-Limit Pot-Limit Poker by Ciaffone and Rueben
Gambling Theory and Other Topics by Mason Malmuth
WSOP Adventure--PC game. It will help you practice the concepts that you read in these books. Like bet sizing and stack stragegies.
Will be in town to play Sept. 19 and 20. Where should I play?
there is a room at 611 main street i think.
I wouldn't go to any of the private poker clubs (i.e. 611 Main etc.) right now. The clubs are unlicensed and are being raided quite frequently. Of late, even the players are being charged under the Canadian Criminal Code. You ought to head to the Holiday Inn on Broadway. The game runs from 11 am to 3 am. I might see you there on the evening of the 20th. E-mail me if you want more info.
This is a little bit late, but Bellingham WA is only 30-45 minutes south of Vancouver and there is definitely 10-20 HE. Can't remember the names of any of the places offhand, but I can look into it.
conform
Living out here in the poker wasteland of WI, I always have to travel and plan a trip well in advance to be able to play poker. Travel means buying an airplane ticket, booking rooms, and coordinating/balancing things between work and home. (Probably not all that uncommon for others of you as well)
What I have done the past few years as my poker related travel has increased, is to time my poker trips to major tournaments. I haven't been all that impressed with poker action in Vegas other than the big tournaments, so I usually don't go there at all other times of the year.
(Too many grouches and rocks day in and day out!)
In the past, I have always timed by tournament trips to the opening weekend of the big tournaments such as WSOP, Orleans/Gold Coast Open, and Carnivale of Poker. My logic was that at the opening of the tournaments people still had their full bankrolls, were eager to play, and the first few tournament events were generally cheaper with huge fields for a big overlay to my buyin.
But the early events are always so huge that it now seems to become more of a crapshoot than a true test of poker knowledge and skill. I spoke with a few of the bigger name, regular tournament pro players about this during the last Orleans and subsequent TOC. Some of them like the huge overlay, others feel they would rather sit out of the tourneys that have the huge (500+) fields and wait for the more normal sized (200-300) field events.
I am undecided and looking for opinions. This will help influence me on the timing of my trip in January to Harrah's Carnivale. Obviously I can't come for the entire tournament or it wouldn't be an issue. I can only come for 5-8 days max. so want to pick the most advantageous time for both tournament action and live games.
In July when I came in at the end of the Orleans instead of my usual opening weekend trip, the games were still good on the live side and the tournament events had slimmed down from the monster opening event of 1000+. However, there did seem to be more burnout,negative energy, and bad beat stories prevalent at the end of the long tournament.
Dealers were also worn out and making mistakes that I didn't recall as being much of an issue on previous early tourney trips.
So what do you folks think?
Diane
Since, the Carnival of Poker will be at Harrah's this year, I expect a lot of action across the street at the Mirage. I was surprised at the most recent posts about the Mirage, because I played there during the WSOP and I thought the action was good. When I was there in May, I played several of the tournaments at the Mirage. The pool of players was from 40 to approximately 60 entries per tourney. At that time the entry fees were either $125 or $225. But, I still prefer large fields of players for a good payoff, so I'll stick to the $500 events.
Mark- I also have thought that Mirage will be the greatest beneficiary of the Harrah's Carnivale given it's location. Matter of fact, for the price involved, I play to stay at Mirage this time rather than the host hotel Harrah's.
Hopefully Donna Harris and crew will be ready for the onslaught of poker players in January.
One conflict for me personally though is that the Peppermill in Reno has added some new tournaments to it's schedule including one the end of January. I REALLY like the Peppermill tournaments so I will be torn in making a decision on this one.
Diane
Diane,
I think this event in January will be great! You'll have two major cardrooms within walking distance of Harrah's. Check out Sklansky's response to a tournament question on the poker forum. Good Luck in Vegas!
I think you have it mostly right. In general, the games around the big tournaments are better, and many players leave after they exhaust their bankrolls. So this means that the beginning of the tournament is better than the end of it. You also are correct in concluding that the luck factor is very high in some of these big early events, and as the fields continue to grow so will the luck factor.
One thing that you may not be realizing is that the games improve greatly at the main Vegas cardrooms when there is a big tournament. A lot depends on the limnit that you play, but if you like $20-$40 or higher the games at Bellagio and The Mirage are much better than normal. This is especially true at night after most players have been knocked out. You may be making a mistake if you are staying at the casino that hosts the tournament if you are interested in playing regular side games. Of course, if you want to play something like pot limit, then you will usually have to stay at the host hotel.
From your experience with tournaments, which one of the following would a skilled player have a better chance with a large field of players:
a: limit hold'em b: no limit hold'em c: pot-limit hold'em d: limit omaha 8 or B e: pot-limit omaha 8 or B
The correct answer is D, limit O8.
Jim,
You've got me wondering. What would you say are the advantages for a skilled player in limit O8 tournaments?
Thanks, Mason- We are pretty much on the same wavelength on this.
As I said, I only come to Vegas now during the big tourneys because I have found that the $10-20 and higher games aren't that much fun the rest of the year. It's just always the same group of working pros/local rocks with a sprinkle of tourists who happen to wander in. Games aren't that good day in and day out IMO. I only come to town 3-4 times a year and I still recognize most of the local pros from prior trips.
Each time I come for the tourneys I do stay at the tournament host hotel for the convenience of steady round the clock games at mid-limits. But I then balance my time between there and Bellagio/Mirage for side action. I like the way the poker action swells at those two locations whenever lots of poker players are in town for the tournaments. I play $10-20, 15/30, and 20/40 Holdem and can then find all the games I want.
However, even during the Orleans/TOC I was disappointed by the Mirage action at those limits. Usually the red chip games didn't start until about noon and then by supper there were maybe two games at each limit (10/20 and 20/40) but generally one of each game was borderline short-handed and vulnerable to breaking down. I also don't like Mirage/Donna Harris policy of starting a second table but only keeping it a "must move" table for the first hour. Once it starts, I feel it should stay a must move for as long as game lasts or until a 3rd game starts and that can become the must move table.
Horseshe Tunica handles this issue (and others) very well. Once a second table of any limit opens up, it is designated as a must move table and stays that way. When 3rd or 4th table of the same limit opens up it also is must move. So you have a must move to the must move to the main game. I don't like the aspect of always changing tables, but it does protect the game by keeping tables full and always giving preference to the games that started first in the sequence of the day.
Other rule I would like to see adopted in Vegas (as referenced in a Linda Johnson column) is the Third Man Walking rule. Vegas has the highest concentration of "walkers" from poker games that I have seen. If the table already has two people missing, the next person (3rd man walking)only has one full round to be gone before they get picked up. That gives you time to use the restroom, make a phone call, have a conversation with a buddy, or talk to a floorman.
Diane
folks,
im back from my trip to British Columbia to watch a black bear that was eating salmon out of a creek near Kaslo. then i went to San Juan Island to watch killer whales then some hiking in north cascades national park and home to montana. i stopped in a few little cardrooms but none had games when i was there. i also checked out some casinos and watced the blackjack and slots. most of which were unbeatable for any worthwhile dough but had many bad players giving away their money to casinos that give almost nothing in return to the player.
Welcome Back Ray,
Super Dolphins (Orcinus Orca) Killer Whale. I think your real name is manta ray. Off to Wellfleet to volunteer for strandings of whales, dolphins, sea turtles, sea lions, and whatever else washes up on shore. Played FW last nite and I appreciate it even more after the smoke free environment in the lower levels now I'll have to get players interested in a smoke free midlevel game.
Paul
Paul if you ever see a kemps ridley let me know, i never have and they will be gone soon. its interesting to hear FW has N/S poker maybe something is happening.
Ray,
There's a website below that may be helpful. At the meeting yesterday there was also a Sea Turtle Volunteer program and Dennis spoke briefly from the Wellfleet Bay Wildlife Sanctuary about the strandings in Wellfleet it's a unique area in the sense it has many factors that can influence a stranding. I'm mainly interested in photographing the strandings, and observation rather than the physical part of carrying the ceteceans. I love photography but I'm also a Zoologist/Chemist/Environmentalist. In other words I know a little bit of everything and not much of nothing.
As far as FW is concerned it's only N/S in the 1-5 7CS area. I talked to Kathy Poker Director and she said that all you have to do is start a list for whatever game you want to play and they'll set it up in the N/S area so that's what I intend to do the next time I'm down there with time.
If I do see a Kemps Ridley I'll send you the negatives and you can blow them up or whatever.
http://www.ridleyturtles.org/
Nice talking to you
Paul
Did anyone else notice that Ray disappeared about the same time Abdul showed up, and then came back when Abdul left? Has anyone seen these two together in the same room?
Brett
And notice how Ray is always hanging out in the wilds of Montana or British Columbia where no one can find him. Only the bears know if he really exists.
If Ray is Abdul he is hidding it well or vis a versa!
Vince.
Ray, beautiful country or what?
Speaking of black bears...saw one sitting on the 7th green at a golf course near Vancouver (Furry Creek Golf course) this summer. Needless to say we didn't putt out on that one! ...just as well, it was the about the only 2 putt I had all day.
Did you stop in Vancouver?
there are a lot of busy cardrooms in the PNW these days. not much high stakes action. bellingham has a lot of tables. i think it's tough finding anything past 10-20 though.
I am new to this area and would like to find a home game
thanks
Alert---------
Hubby and I arrive on Thursday afternoon September 23rd for a long weekend. We will be staying at Bellagio until mid morning on Monday September 27th. I have never stayed in a room at the Bellagio, so this will/should be a real treat.
This is in part a celebration of our 25th wedding anniversary, timed to some races at the LV Motor Speedway. Hubby generally does not come to Vegas with me since he is a non-gambling sort. (Well, I guess he DID take a big gamble on me 25 years ago.......made a winning bet and quit ahead!)
Anyhow....I anticipate playing at Bellagio primarily with a side trip over to Mirage to see some friends and say hi to Donna Harris. Will not get to play as much as I usually do since will be socializing with hubby and another couple that are joining us. Karen (half of the other couple) is also one heck of a poker player and will be joining me on this adventure.
Hopefully I will be terrorizing the red chip games and may even venture into the $30-60 arena if I am doing well and feeling adventurous. Any of you who see a big mouthed, over-weight, middle-aged, short haired broad, come on over say Hi and introduce yourself. I may or may not be wearing my GB Packers sweatshirt.
See you soon, Diane
Diane From Pickle Packers,
Someone told me that GB Packers got there name from "Pickle Packers" I thought it was from "Packing Cheeseheads" into crocks. Now I have a small wager on this so could someone plz clear this up so I can collect on this crock.
Metro Pizza To Die For in LV.
Paul
They were originally sponsored by a meat packing company I believe back in the 30's or so. Hence the name Packers.
Not anything to do with pickles that I have ever heard of.
Why don't you access their official webpage and check out for sure. I would guess that your fellow bettor probably won't want to take my word on it.
Diane
The Pack was originally sponsored by the ACME meat packing company back in something like 1919. Thus the ACME Packers.
-Michael
PS. Spare me the commentary on the embarassment on Sunday.
Be the flop... See the flop.. You're not being the flop Danny.
Diane, are you the same Diane taped by Amercian Journey TV at the TOC? Saw the story in Mike Sexton's column. I also venture to these tourneys alone (hubby (a Green Bay cheesehead,doesn't play. Went to the Carnival of Poker last year and plan to go again in January. Lots of fun. Let me know when you are going -- I'd like to say hello! Looking forward to seeing your TV profile program (if it was you)!!
Marcia- Yes, I am the same person who is involved in the Discovery Channel's Documentary for the TOC. Mike Sexton was pretty kind in his column as well. (Lord knows there can't be two of us---world isn't ready for two DIANES!)
I too plan to be at the Carnivale in January, once plans are set can send you an email.
Hope our paths cross sometime in a poker room.
Diane
Go-get-em Diane! Give it your best shot in that Bellagio 30-60. Think there's any good players at that table?
Lets hear the results/highlights next week.
Abe
Hey Abe- THanks for the vote of confidence. But to dip my toes in that water, I better beat up the $15-30 game first.
Either way, I will post a report.
Diane
"Any of you who see a big mouthed, over-weight, middle-aged, short haired broad..." Nothing against you Diane, but that pretty much describes half the female Pack fans I saw at the game on Sunday in Pontiac...I just figure they probably arent as good at HE as you are.
Just wondering what's going on with him...haven't seen him in the tournament winners circle lately, and seeing that he is a specialist at that, seeems odd. I don't know him or anything, just curious.
He got a job at a casino in Southern Cal.
Hello folks , as I write this i feel that mayby there is someone that will read this that could help me Im looking to learn more I am a avid player and reader thow for some reason all the books and study have not helped this poker player become a constant winner!!I live in central Michigan will travel if needed,, price for you to work with me in a teacher student form is open if there is a player that lives with in michigan that feels they could and wants to help ,, please email me ,,,, or better yet leave your email I will get with you!! thanks in advance ,,,Confused
Go to the Favorite Links section of this website. In there you will find a link to Bob Ciaffone's web page. Bob is one of the most respected poker authors out there. He also coaches students, and he lives in Michigan (near Saginaw, IIRC).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I'm trying to plan a trip to atlantic city to play some poker. Where are the best places to stay? and where are the best places to play?
-shack
As a former casino employee and an avid HE player I can assure all of those interested that commercial casinos in Ontario are at least one full year away from seeing even a hint of poker in their marketing plans let alone reserving space for them on their floors.
The Gaming Control of Ontario has paved the way to allow poker rooms to be created but the Provincial Government has alot of work that needs to be done before we will ever set foot in a Poker room in Ontario. The Commission has recently setup a task force to analyze the issue and their results will not be released for 6 months.
Unfortunately, we must continue to visit Charity establishments such as Port Perry until this issue is settled.
In the future, ensure that you have correct information before getting everyone in Ontario excited. Still just rumours, rumours, and even more rumours!!!
"Charity establishmentS"
I thought Port Perry was the only legal place to play Poker in Ontario? The charity thing was mucked up (eh, appropriate wording) by the current idiot (well, party) the fine people of Ontario decided to reelect.
Are there other charity casinos in Ontario now?
There is one is already open (Sault St. Marie I think), I'm not sure if it has poker. Brantford is opening sometime next month. I believe Brantford has plans to spread poker sometime in the first year of operation.
I just got back from a visit to the Detroit area and went over to see Casino Windsor. Now why would that place even bother with poker? Maybe with time and the competition coming up from Detroit they might slow down, but can you ever imagine a casino at 1pm having all its tables open yet ever seat is full. Yes thats right on a Monday, non-holiday afternoon, there were people waiting for seats at all tables, except for the high-roller games. The slots were about half full and the craps tables were wall to wall people. I couldnt believe it! I was put up in the hotel there by some business friends and didnt gamble, but I think that has to be the best franchise around for now. They have people willing to pay almost 5 bucks to cross over from Detroit area and deal with the minor hassle of immigration on both sides just to gamble in a crowded casino with just horrible payouts on the slots and waits for table games, why even waste the space or marketing effort to bring in a gamblers when they cant accomodate them now.
I think this will change in the future with the competition from Detroit. Why do I think this? Well in Illinois the riverboats were charging an admission fee to board. Mininum bets for table games was between $10 to $25 per bet depending on whether it was the weekend or not. They didn't have poker. Now, things are different. The rules for the table games are much more liberal and they have poker. Except for the biggest boat in Elgin, Illinois which has the worst rules for table games. Could you imagine a six-deck blackjack game that puts the cut card 1.5 decks from the end and the Dealer hits a soft 17?
Those rules and the cut are about what Windsor had from what I could tell. Still I dont think an area with 3.5 million people is going to be fully served by a mere 4 total casinos. Also add all the people coming in from Cleveland and northern Ohio and you have an underserved market. The only thing that might help is that I saw the payout percentages on those slots they have and was shocked. I heard that they pay out around 89% on quarter slots...gee all their customers will be broke anyways before long. Not to mention that Windsor isnt an especially big building. Seems that most of their free space except the ballroom area is taken so I doubt a poker room could easily be put in without sacrificing some full casino action elsewhere. To be sure it wont be as crowded in a year or two and lots of good customers will be broke by then, but I still cant see poker being a good proposition when slots and other gaming is allowed. Cardrooms and poker only seem to work well when other forms of gambling arent close at hand or when you are the only one offering poker amongst many other casinos.
And there is much demand I can see. I was at the CNE a month ago, and the haphazard cardroom they threw together for that was so popular that if you weren't there at the opening to get seat, you would be lucky to get one all night.
My contacts are a pit boss at Rama and a shift manager at Niagara (both of whom I've known since dealer school 10 years ago). All I can say is that management there, especially Rama, are operating under the assumption the games will begin soon (2- 6 months). I know they are looking at designs for a room and for furniture. It is not a done deal, but they seem to be operating under that impression with the plans they are making.
The rama poker room is under construction, games should be getting underway in Jan or so
MARGE 99 is now open for sign ups. Go to http://www.conjelco.com/marge.html for online registration and all details. The basics are this. We have a block of rooms at the Biloxi Grand in Mississippi from November 18th -20th. There will be a Omaha 8 tourney on Thursday night. A Stud,Holdem,Omaha mixed tourney Friday afternoon. And a No Limit Holdem tourney Saturday afternoon. As long as we have 4 tables these events will qualify the winner for the TOC 2000. This weekend promises to be non stop poker action. Hopefully MARGE 99 will follow in the footsteps of BARGE,ATLARGE,FARGO and ESCARGOT. If you have any questions feel free to contact my by e-mail or query me on IRC when I am there.
Randy"Mitch on IRC"Collack
You can subscribe to the Marge List by sending e-mail to majordomo@conjelco.com with a body which reads subscribe marge
I travel on business to Florida quite a bit. I have played some of the mini-tournaments at an Indian Casino near Tampa, just for fun (rarely lose, never win too big). Are there any good 10/20 hold em games on the short casino cruises off the coast near Tampa or Cape Canaveral? Can anyone give me any details about the poker games on these cruises? My wife grew sick of my trips to casinos (too much time away from my young family, so this may be all the poker I get for a while.
Plenty...every friday & saturday on the Sun Cruz out of Port Canaveral...also 10/20 available midway between Canaveral & Tampa...E-me for details.
My experience in poker so far has been in home games with friends and in casinos. Where can I find any good poker games in Atlanta? I have heard of an organized game in Covington, but have no idea about how to find out about this game or others.
does anyone know if there are any specifications for entry into the sunday night no limit tourney or any of the other ring games that i have read they host nightly? any replies would be much appreciated thanks
Look below (about halfway down) under th "Mayfair Club" thread. I posted some details about the Diamond Club, which is a members-only club. The Sunday tournament starts at 5:00 pm and there is no requirement other than being a member.
Hi all....
Can anybody explain the rules (wsop) for breaking up tables as players get "busted".(correctly and understandable, me being slow and all :) )
It would really make my day....(searched and searched)
Thank's in advance
Daniel
Can anyone tell me if there any high-limit games in Australia on a regular base? what games,what limits and what rake ? someone just told me they play 50-100 hold-em three times a week in Melbourne
I'm going to Melbourne next month and a few inquiries on rgp didn't reveal any knowledge of big stakes in the casinos, but rumours of bigger private games.
JG
PS, we've played together at CA, and I'm glad you're alive and posting. Hope all is well.
Contact Darryl Lanyon, he lives there and publishes a poker magazine. He posts on the strategy forum.
Brett
There are no high stakes games spread on a regular basis at the crown casino. The highest game they get up on a regular basis is 10-20 Omaha High and that is generally only once or twice a week. If you are going to be in Australia next month Jim the Adelaide Casino is holding a tournament from Nov 5th to 12th which should have some high stakes action.
I don't know about the rest of the country, but in Phoenix it is a popular cardroom promotion to have a "pool" on the last digits of each team's score, give away tickets to each seated player, and then pay a prize (usually $500) to winning ticket holders at the end of each quarter. It is a good casino promotion as it keeps everyone present and playing poker for the entire game. I won one at the end of the game last Sunday! Cha-Ching! First time ever.
This got me to thinking about what are good and bad numbers. (I have an inquiring and wandering mind ...) So last Sunday I compiled statistics on the 227 college football games listed, so my sample space is 554 numbers. If anyone cares, here are the percentages for each ending digit at the end of the game:
0 - 14%
1 - 13%
2 - 8%
3 - 10.5%
4 - 11%
5 - 8%
6 - 7%
7 - 14%
8 - 10.5%
9 - 4%
Several interesting things popped out. If you have either digit as a 9, you can go home and you won't miss anything. Although 1 and 8 are both terrible first quarter tickets, they both come back to be above average by the end of the game (21 is a very common final score.) And 3, which is a great first quarter prospect, is only average by the end of the game.
By combining these statistics with common-sense first quarter values (0,3,7 excellent, 6&4 okay, rest poor), I get an overall value approximation as follows:
Excellent numbers - 0,3,7
Okay numbers - 1,4,6,8
Poor numbers - 2,5
Death number - 9
And sure enough, when I won the pool (end of game prize), I had a 3 and a 7.
End digression. Back to poker. Dick
I love this contest. It keeps the games full and gives you something else to think about at the table. I would have thought that 4 was a better number, but I usually have a 9 anyway.
Brett
That's quite interesting. I believe it has been proved that in any collection of "real" numbers, that is numbers which are measuring quantities of something, the digit 1 is most common, then 2, 3, 4, etc. It would be easy to put together a computer simulation which could output a population of last digits at the end of each quarter if fed the probability of a team making a particular score (3, 7 or whatever). Maybe I'll do it if I find the time, but I have some other projects on the go at the moment.
Andy.
Dick,
I love it!
Vince
TWIMC,
I attempted to find out this info. over the net, but I surrendered to getting smoke free hotel rooms for reply's. for instance Foxwoods has smoke free table area's BJ, Craps, Let It Ride etc. and low limit 1-5 7cs area that is smoke free and will set up any higher limit game upon request. I heard CA is smoke free, but I don't know exactly what cities. My question is where are the smoke free casino/poker rooms around the world?? Since I can't find out myself, I will put it out to the masses. Thanks whether you reply or not.
Paul
all of california except the indian reservations and owner operated rooms with no hired employees. all public places in cal. are smoke free.
B.C. canada will go all smoke free jan. 1 2000 in public places.
at least one major club in new york city.
trop in atlantic city had a no smoke room, small stakes (this may be dated)
Mike Sexton and Tom Mcevoy both are on the forefront to having non smoking tournaments in las vegas. my hats off to them.
any other owners or establishments please reply as you will get many new customers.(myself)
this is not to offend smokers as i have had many good friends who were.
Trop in AC still has the non-smoking room, although it only spreads low limit stud.. no hold'em.
The war against cancer sticks is slowly being won. Only a matter of time until we will not have to put up with it anymore. Kudos to Sexton, McEvoy, Seidel and anyone else on this bandwagon.
The Trop will occassionally put a 2-4 HE game in the non-smoking room, if people sign up at desk. With tables lost in smoking area due to slot expansion (keno room was also killed- big loss), may be harder to do.
Taj Mahal has non-smoking tables (not in walled area of any kind) and some smoking tables have non-smoke seats (seats 1 and 8, lucky dealers!)
Sands has non-smoking casino floor section of table games. Unfortunately, it's on second floor next to large open space from first floor....kinda like a chimney.
What are the casinos afraid of? If all (or even most) of the poker rooms in Vegas were to go non-smoking, revenues would increase.
The regulars (who smoke) would have no place else to go to play and would simply walk out to the main casino to have an occasional smoke (and maybe even play the slots).
When California went non-smoking (except for the indian reservations), the result was that the non-smoking clubs drew customers away from the reservations. I was a regular at Viejas but have only played there once since 1/1/98, when I was given a non-smoking option.
Pechanga went non-smoking and has since had to expand their card room.
Heh. I used to play at Viejas off and on but have not been there once since the smoking ban. From what I hear they've lost their 20-40 game too. While that probably has something to do with management, I suspect it has something to do with the availiability of smoke free alternatives as well.
I have to say I have been shocked recently. I moved back to Vegas after 5 years in CA and dreaded the thought of smoke inside buildings. So far it hasnt been much to notice. I played 10-20 on Saturday night at the Mirage (spotted Mason there too) and didnt have one single player smoking in the game...how is that for shocking! I even noticed that when I went home, my clothes didnt quite have the usual smoking stench to them. Someone said that some CA players mentioned that they have gotten used to not smoking at the table and even when then can in Nevada, they choose not to since it doesnt feel comfortable to them anymore. Now I doubt this is too many smoker's feelings, but maybe there is hope. I personally like what a few players I know do. They stand when the want to smoke and still play. They put the cigarette down and play their cards and when not involved, they stand and smoke, thereby not irritating the non-smokers and also giving the air filtration systems a better chance to work. I think if most if not all players followed this simple custom, few people would have any complaints at all. It not quite the same as no smoking at all, but its much closer to clearing up the problem and still letting the smokers get their fix.
I just want to thank you guys for the information you offer in your books. I have been studying and practicing my game for about a year. My game has improved tremendously. For example I have been studying Ray Zee's Hi/Lo Split poker. I have never played in a hi/lo split game. My main game is Texas Hold'em and I also have experience in 7-stud. Well, anyways I decided to enter a omaha hi/lo split tournament to test the waters. This was my 1st tournament of this sort and I placed 2nd. I used a lot of the guidelines Ray Zee talked about in his book. I thought that a lot of the people that play omaha hi/lo (ring games) would have a significant edge over me. I was wrong. I saw many experienced hi/lo players play some terrible hands. I have decided to change my game to omaha hi/lo for a while to get some more experience and to see how soft the game really is. Thanks for everything!!!
Dice
glad to hear of your good fortune from studying. keep playing poker and stay away from your name game.
The following quote from http://chessdigest.com/lssn.html is from "Improve Your Chess" by Ken Smith, a well-known chess master and poker player. Virtually the same text appears on pp. 318-319 of Roy Cooke's Real Poker: The Cooke Collection - just substitute "poker" for chess and make a few other insignificant changes. My question is, who really wrote this?
What is it that winning players have that sets them apart? I think that chess involves more than just knowing the game. What winners have that sets them apart from other knowledgeable players is intensity.
Have you ever watched Jack Nicklaus' eyes during a putt? Mike Tyson's just before a fight? Earl Anthony's over a bowling shot? Something special is going on behind those eyes, something that translates into the success that each of these players has had in his given field. They are in tune with what they are doing; they're focused, and they exclude all else from their minds. Totally absorbed in what they are doing, they operate at a higher level.
This intensity and focus also is a characteristic of winning chess players. Many people know how to play and what to do in certain situations, yet they have difficulty applying that knowledge consistently at the board. Emotions take control of them. Focus and concentration are intermittent at best. Even some of the world's technically and intellectually best players remain stagnate most of the time due to flaws in this area. Lack of intensity can be fatal.
You need to get psyched up within your own mind. Get your competitive juices flowing. Get your ego involved-although it also is important to keep it under control Heighten your sense of awareness. Get your animal instincts involved. You will be amazed at the level of focus and awareness that you can condition your mind to develop.
When you truly focus your energies and apply your concentration, you will see more, and will develop a sense of feel. By definition, instincts are something with which we are born - but they also are honed with practice, sharpened by concentration, and developed over the course of many similar trials in your games.
I know Ken is a respected member of the chess community. Do you know when he wrote this?
John
as i understand it Ken is no longer with us. and i miss his top hat and antics at the poker table.
Ray:
I understood the same thing. I thought he passed away several years ago. The copyright on his page is November, 1998 which makes me think that this might be another Ken Smith. Does anyone know?
It was not that long ago, in 1999.
There was lots of coverage in the chess mags and there is something at his puplishing company Chess Digest.
http://www.chessdigest.com/bio.html
David
Thanks. For some reason I thought that Ken "Top Hat" Smith had passed away about three years ago. I knew that he was a well known chess player and played in the big poker tournaments, but I never knew him personally. (But I believe that Ray Zee knew him fairly well.)
I am curious however, as to who did the copying.
This has nothing to do with poker, but while we're eulogizing Ken Smith, let me add this to the hagiography. When I was 14 and just starting to play tournament chess, I ordered a few small titles from his publishing company(not unlike 2+2 in size and scope) and included a short note asking for a little guidance on the path to improvement. He sent the books and included a great letter with all sorts of encouragement and advice. Through the years, whenever I ordered anything, he would include a nice note saying something like, "I saw your name in Chess Life, .. " or something like that, always encouraging me. Anyway, I'm sorry I never got a chance to checkraise his ass over the poker table and thank him for all the support. Thanks, Ken.
JG
The Crown casino in Melbourne informed me that the biggest game they have on a regular base is $10-20.
I'm going to Costa Rica and would like to know the poker situation there. The basic questions are --- ---where (specifically which casinos) ---what games and limits (HE vs Stud) ---hours of operation ---dress code if any ---are the games conducted in English or Spanish
thanks very much
Anyone who has followed my posts about trying to work my way up the limits knows that I am always saying something like "Why must I lose to these idiots???" [This is actually a quote from old-time chess great Aron Nimzovitch.]
Well ... I finally built up my bankroll enough to move up from 3-6 to 4-8 hold'em. It was like someone turned on a switch! Since moving over, I am beating this game for almost 2 big bets per hour over 75 hours, I have a much higher percentage of winning sessions, and the standard deviation for this run is the SAME as the standard deviation was for my 3-6 game ($60/hr). My 2-sigma band goes from rate=0 (minus 2-sigma) to rate = 3.4 BB/hr (plus 2-sigma), with my actual rate at 1.7 BB/hr.
I think I have figured out that playing against slightly better players is much better for me. In this game, most players are quite loose-passive, but unlike the 3-6 game (which is the lowest limit spread), when I raise I can get most people out. This combination is ideal of course, as I can still make a fortune on drawing hands, but I also have a much higher EV on high-card hands and big pairs.
I now believe you guys that moving up is the thing to do, not just beat my head against the low limit games. For encouraging me, I thank Ray Zee, Vince Lepore, skp, and Dan Hanson for their posts and e-mails.
I'm already taking shots at the 6-12 games, but I'll delay reporting for a future post.
Dick
Nice job Dick in Phoenix:) BTW, do you really play chess or are you just quoting? What ELO?
I am sorry, but Dick I cant imagine a 3-6 being noticeably different from a 4-8. Maybe the 3-6 would be where a few more rank beginners play since its the lowest limit, but the 4-8 would have bigger pots with more chips in it encouraging bad play as well. Besides, not too many people are going to say, well I can afford the 3-6, but that 4-8 is too rich for my blood unless the game naturally attracted a completely different crowd, which doesnt happen that often for such a close limit at the low-end of the spectrum. I do however congratulate you on succeeding, not many players ever make it even up one level. At those limits its too easy to get caught up in gambling and playing bad hands since everyone is playing them, but you obviously avoided the trap and hopefully you will make it to the bigger limits where you definitely will notice a difference in games from limit to limit.
You know, Wild Bill, I thought long and hard about this to make sure I didn't just think I was on a good run of cards. You are right, the games are NOT noticeably different, with many of the same players going back and forth. Upon reviewing my better results, I saw a pattern that my session results were more consistent because I was consistently making more high-card hands hold up for small-pot wins.
This is a very subtle difference in the games, and if you sat in each for a few hours you might not even notice. I guess when the same players move from 3-6 to 4-8, they tighten up just a little. That's my current reading, anyway.
One other factor - the 4-8 is often the biggest limit being played here at Gila River, and they rarely get anything going bigger than 6-12. Does your opinion change if the 4-8 is the biggest game in the room? [ When a tournament is about to start, and there are people in the game who are just waiting for that, I sometimes see players who look pretty good, for example. ]
Thanks for your encouragement.
Dick
bgoomba - I played a lot of chess about 20 years ago, studied a lot. I was about 1700 at my peak; probably play at a 1400-1500 level right now after a long hiatus.
Dick
Go get 'em, Dick. See ya at 10-20/15-30 soon.
In the time since I wrote this, my win rate has settled down (if my winnings graph were a stock, I would say it is "consolidating") to a more realistic 1.1 BB per hour.
I have decided to play most of my time for a while in this game in which I am very comfortable - the hands seem to present very few problems for me. The reason is that I know I have a long way to go in concentration and analysis of the other people at the table. I'm going to use this game with few strategy problems to practice my people skills.
If anyone reads this, buried deep in a week-old thread, on the Exchange Forum yet, boy, you are a hard-core reader, and I thank you for your support.
Dick
I set my message index up in reverse chronological order so it's impossible to miss those insightful posts from Dick in Phoenix. :)
THIS was "insightful" ?? ... Dick
well not *that* message...
Hay Dick,
When I moved up to 4-8 from 3-6 I was terrified my first 20 min. or so. But within my 5th or 6th sitting it occurred to me I was wasting my time, because so many of my decisions didn't seem to matter since 4-8 players are no different from 2-4 players. I don't know what it is, but when we're thinking about moving up in limit, we assume the people in that higher limit are all a bunch of geniuses or something--they aren't!!
For now,play 6-12. But just be a little careful about game choice at first. Look for happy-go-lucky tables, as opposed to tables where the players are all serious and quiet(especially if 2 or 3 of them are wearing baseball caps and sunglasses, that's a dead giveaway). Also, so often the best games I've played in have at least one or two giggling girls in them, it really helps to loosen a bunch of guys up.
Good Luck,
Non-smoking players --- what tactics can be used to put pressure on the card rooms to provide a non-smoking environment? Let's share ideas!! And remember, we are the majority.
My suggestions are:
(1) the next time you pick up your chips and walk, because the player next to you is chain smoking, LET THE POKER ROOM MANAGER KNOW WHY YOU ARE WALKING.
(2) refuse seats next to smokers in short games. The poker room is hungry for you to sit down when there is no board.
(3) if seated next to an inconsiderate smoker, EVERY time he/she "lights up", simply stand up and say "deal me out until after he/she is done with their cigarette". On occasion, you can actually bring a short handed game to a halt.
(4) support non-smoking tounaments and card rooms
Short-Stack,
The poker room should definitely be smoke-free, if your in a good game you could be sitting in that seat for 12 hours more or less and if your sitting between two smokers who also stay because it's a good game, you might as well light up yourself, because your inhaling both cigarettes and since your system is purer than theirs you will absorb the chemicals much faster, and your aveoli will suffer the worst, simply because there in better shape to take them in.
Enuf preaching. I would like to find a passive way to get the job done, whether there is one remains to be seen. But maybe your way is the answer I don't know and i'm sure I'm not supposed to know.
Paul N/S
i personally have taken my business to california. i dont go to smokie rooms very much at all and this year i didnt go to the world series for that reason and i was there for the first one in 1970. over the years most of the poker players have died somewhere in their 50's or 60's with a few exceptions of course. now that im in my 50;s i have to think about it more as i realize im not invincible and young. bad environment with lack of exercise and the greasy food takes its tole. as long as the people will go to places that have bad anything there wont be changes. where i live in montana the best reataurants have gone non smoking and even a few bars have as well. its because they recocnize that the clientele they want and need wont go unless they are non smoking. also the owners dont want to be in that environment. its getting better all over but slowly.
How about a small battery operated fan to blow the smoke back in their faces?
I HATE SMOKE!! I'm a dealer in a fairly large casino poker room and am constantly sick due to the smoke. Enough is enough! NO ONE has the right to spew noxious fumes in a closed environment. I'm currently researching if there are laws on the books which I can use such as OSHA regulations.
I know as a fact that if ANY other working environement had the polluted air that poker rooms have, they would be shut down.
Long time ago Black Lung disease was a joke. Now it's not. Asbestosis was a joke. Now it's not. AIDS was a joke. Now it's not. Smoking is no longer a joke.
John
John,
I hope you find those books!!!
This past saturday I had to spend a lot of time outside because I couldn't pull air into my lungs!! This has become a huge problem for me. I don't know if I should stop playing or what. I choose to go on for now, but as far as you guys(dealers) go I really am sorry for you guys as I don't know what other choices you have.
The poker room that I play at I believe has the worst ventilation system in a country. I think they have a ventilation system, but I'm having my doubts if it is fully operational. I would name the room, but there is no need as most who play there or work there will probably know it's the one.
I sympathize with you guys. Playing in California, it's hard now to imagine having put in all that time in the smoke. One thing you can do: With the internet it is now extremely easy to make your views known to your political representatives. Find the web site for your state legislature, state senate, etc. (easy to find on a search engine) and e-mail your representatives with your concerns. I would think dealers would be in an especially strong position to make persuasive arguments since it is their workplace. (Professional poker players are not likely to be recognized for "working" in casinos.) You might also be able to do some research on the net into the legal directions taken in CA to eliminate smoking in the workplace.
It appears these days that the non-smokers are the most rude people I've ever met. If it bothers you that much, move to California. There are plenty of smoke free card rooms there.
No thanks, couldnt stand CA despite the non-smoking atmosphere. Besides why dont they force the smokers to move a place like Kentucky or North Carolina where everyone smokes?
Frankly I think the reason why non-smokers are so rude is that smokers just love the challenge of smoking in their face. Neither side shows any respect for each other and the hostilities begin. I personally doubt smoking inside will be legal for that much longer as there really have been quite minimal effects from the smoking ban in CA so I am sure other states will look to do it until the federal government finally shuts down indoor smoking once and for all...wont that be a happy day! Until then I say we tax the crap out of cigarettes and continue suing the tobacco companies until it just forces most people off of it. In a place like Nevada indoor smoking wont be banned because everything done in this state is aimed at keeping tourists happy and since non-smokers wont boycott smoking casinos, I would have to say the smokers have the edge on their side.
Like I said in my other posting, I think if smokers would just stand when they smoke and show some courtesy, the non-smokers wouldnt complain all that much and the hostility would be solved, but both sides seem to like arguing over it too much to do that.
No one is being rude here. I don't know where you work, but workers have an inherent right to a safe work place. No one, not even YOU Mr. MAH has a right to pollute the air and endanger my health.
We do some funny things sometimes. My poker room banned a customer for his strong body odor. Yet we put up with cigs. Enough is enough!
John
I do live in California, and I play 20+ hours each week. I used to visit Las Vegas AT LEAST once a month. Since California went non-smoking, I have been to Vegas once in two years, and that was because of a room comp.
That's a lot of tourist dollars that Nevada did not get.
I have also totally boycotted the local reservation casinos that still allow smoking, where I was once a "regular".
"It appears these days that the non-smokers are the most rude people I've ever met"
What can they be doing that is ruder than blowing a known carcegen into the air?
I shouldn't have change my residence in order to be able to breathe. That should me my right everywhere.
How would you like it if I sat down next to you and started mixing bleach and ammonia together, fanning the fumes in your direction, and saying "oh, does this bother you? Maybe you should move".
People go to Casinos to smoke, drink, and have a good time. These are the players I want at my table. I want them to have a good time while I'm getting the best of it. If I'm rude to a smoking player, he'll make an extra effort to be nasty to me. He even may make the game more difficult or get up and leave.
You shouldn't be surprized at my response. All of you know that the casinos are smoky before you even started playing poker. It's one of the hazards you'll have to deal with and it's not going to change. Why make the situation worse by being abusive to the smokers?
A few years ago, there was a casino on the strip that went all non-smoking. Within two years it changed back. The casinos found out that its the smokers who gamble the most. Most of these players that smoke, think it's all luck anyway. Be glad that they are there. I could think of a lot of worse places to be. All of you non-smokers are too sensitive.
My opinion.
You said "All of you know that the casinos are smoky before you even started playing poker. It's one of the hazards you'll have to deal with and it's not going to change."
NOT TRUE --- It has already changed in California and it WILL change in Nevada too.
I agree that if only one casino goes non-smoking they MAY be at a disadvantage, but if all casinos do it then the fish will still come.
However, the Village Club in San Diego was non-smoking years before it was mandated, and thrived.
I'm willing to make this bet. If you have a casino for smokers only, it will be packed with smokers waiting in line to get in.
mah,
There's no crime to being sensitive. Non-smokers are sensitive, because they still have the sense of smell. I don't go to the casino's to drink or smoke, so does that mean because I don't do these things that I have a less enjoyable time, then the people who do. It's really none of my business how you live, but it is my business how I live and if I chose to live in a smoke free environment so be it. I do believe that non-smoking is making progress and the casino's that have non-smoking is where I'll be.
paul n/s
Paul,
The typical non-smoker is rude "right-off-the-bat", especially an ex-smoker. If smoke is in your face, try a little diplomacy first. The majority of smokers will cooperate.
The smokers may increase my ev, but it's not worth it if it's at the expense of my longevity and health. I'd rather win a little less against better players or learn how to beat them too.
It's perfectly rational to want to control your environment. What's not rational is to try to force others to your idea. For example it's rational to make the choice you don't like churches. It's irrational to go a step further and ban churches. Don't go to church then. If you don't like the smoke don't go where the smoke is. The law of supply and demand will prevail....if enough people frequent non smoking establishments they will dominate the industry.
Dave J.
David,
I agree.
>If you don't like the smoke don't go where the smoke is. >The law of >supply and demand will prevail....if enough people frequent >non smoking >establishments they will dominate the industry.
Thank you for your injection of rationality Dave.
I agree 100%.
Herf
You'll find plenty of live ones in the smoke-free rooms of California.
Smokers often have the most obvious and frequent tells of all.
I'm making a trip to biloxi and was hoping i could get some input of the best places to play (7cs & HE) and stay. Preferably somewhere I can make a simple bee line from the card room to the buffet to my room :} Thanks.
Since the Beau Rivage closed, the Grand Biloxi and the Grand Gulfport are the only two that I would go to. The rooms at the Grand Biloxi are pretty nice (I stayed in the new tower), but across the street (tunnel over the highway). Food is close to the poker room, but the walk is a little long compared to what it was at the Beau Rivage. You did not say what structure/level you play at, but I think you will find both HE and 7CS at most levels.
There is an upcoming event in Biloxi. See details below.
MARGE 99 is now open for sign ups. Go to http://www.conjelco.com/marge.html for online registration and all details. The basics are this. We have a block of rooms at the Biloxi Grand in Mississippi from November 18th -20th. There will be a Omaha 8 tourney on Thursday night. A Stud,Holdem,Omaha mixed tourney Friday afternoon. And a No Limit Holdem tourney Saturday afternoon. As long as we have 4 tables these events will qualify the winner for the TOC 2000. This weekend promises to be non stop poker action. Hopefully MARGE 99 will follow in the footsteps of BARGE,ATLARGE,FARGO and ESCARGOT. If you have any questions feel free to contact my by e-mail or query me on IRC when I am there.
Randy"Mitch on IRC"Collack
You can subscribe to the Marge List by sending e-mail to majordomo@conjelco.com with a body which reads subscribe marge After you are subscribed, you then address your mail to ...marge@conjelco.com
Does anyone know of a good honest game in the dallas Fort Worth Area. The 3 1/2 hour drive east to Lousiana can get old doing it every week
Tim,
I know of several. Give me a shout.
Lou
I saw a post earlier about taxes on the strategy forum. Whaat about taxes with Delta casino. Since it is offshore do you still have to pay taxes. Also when you request a cashout do they send this documentation to the IRS.
As long as you are a resident of the US, you must pay taxes on all income, even income earned when physically present in another country.
Thus, if you go to Ireland and win the Lottery for millions, you owe the income tax to the U.S. and to your home state. Even if you never come home, you owe them the money (although they may never know to come and collect).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
good response
I don't know the answer
I would like to know if it's real that in luxembourg (europa) when you're married, you quite don't pay any tax.
I was thinking about trying Video Poker, but before I go out and buy the book, I was wondering if anyone knows if Kansas City Casinos carry the machines that most video poker books say you should play. Unfortunatly, I don't have a list of the machine types or their structure, mostly because I am not familiar with the "video poker lingo". Any help would be greatly appreciated.
James Flames
Well, I just settled a case that was set for trial commencing Monday. As such, I am punting work and will be in Vegas this Friday to Sunday. Hope to see some of you guys at the Bellagio.
I'd love to get together for a couple of "pops" with any of you posters based in Vegas if you are interested. Please E-mail me or give me a shout at Circus Circus. The room will be under the name of Sudhir Padmanabhan.
BTW, I have never stayed at the Circus Circus...any comments?
You this weekend and Diane B last weekend. The out-of-town posters are gonna wear those locals out.
Its a long walk to Bellagio from Circus, but since you are staying there, you will be right next door to one of the major Vegas highlights. Thats the giant hot dog at Slots-a-Fun.
Go get 'em. Post us some stories/results when you return.
How come Ken's Poker page was removed from the links???
I don't know, but I clicked on your post expecting to see a new anthropological discovery.:-) Maybe Mason will provide the real answer to your question.
Be honest, John! You thought it was about Vince!!
.
We periodically update the links and add or remove some from time to time at our discretion. Sorry if this has caused any inconvenience.
Too bad. Ken's page has a great section with links to gambling stories in newspapers across America. The content changes daily. I was really hooked on coverage of the Binion murder. It's better then that damn soap opera my wife watches each day!!
Have to agree, Ken's page is worth keeping around.
Definitely and even has a good list of poker books (not just 2+2) with easy to use links to the books on amazon.com (20% discount on many of them).
From an overall standpoint the best link on 2+2s link page. Mason, why did you delete it? It seems like a keeper.
Post deleted at author's request.
Hi all- Back from Vegas and almost caught up on my sleep.
4 days with hubby and friends in town for the races at the LV Motorspeedway, but still managed to ring up a $2200 win and about 40 hours of play at $15-30.
Stayed at Bellagio for the first time and that is a definite winner in terms of luxurious rooms and customer service. Room overlooked the fountains and the Strip. Twice daily maid service, bed turned down, chocolates at night.......it was the lap of luxury.
Games were the same heavy concentration of the working players I have come to know and recongnize from prior trips. Seems like I play with them so much, they keep asking me if I have moved there yet. The few tourists in the games assumed I was a "local". I think that was a compliment on my style of play, but not totally sure.
I seemed to find it easier to get into the "zone" this past trip where I could make good reads on others and the stregnth of my hand compared to others in pot with me. Just one of those trips where things worked well.
I almost called the trip report "The Story of $700". For the first 3 days, each time I sat down I immediately got stuck $700 or went up $700 before leveling out. It's like that was the magic chip number for me.
I only played at Bellagio the entire trip, so I cannot comment on anywhere else. Games went around the clock in $15-30 and $30-60, although by early Monday morning there was just one game of each.
Played $15-30 with both Huck Seed and Brad Daugherty. Seemed weird to have two bracelet wearers in my little game. Huck was chatting with a pretty Eurasian girl for quite awhile and then started playing with us rather than just chatting. Brad was actually in two of the games I played for an extended period as well as Mike Laing.
Well, I have played $10-20 in Tunica with Jack Keller and now Huck and Brad in Vegas.......wonder who I will see in Reno next month?
NOthing else significant to report on this trip. Sorry........it isn't more APC (actual poker content) but I play so many hands.....and nothing spectacular really registered.
Diane
You are kidding right? You played with Huck Seed, Brad Daugherty and Mike Laing in the 15-30.
Are the games that bad in Vegas?
Berya- No---I am not kidding at all. I am a talker, not a bragger or someone who just wants to exaggerate the facts.
Huck Seed had been playing higher limits all weekend. He came over several times to chat with this young Eurasian girl (someone said she was just a good friend of Huck's girlfriend as opposed to someone he was romantically interested in) and when we had a seat open he started to play in our $15-30 HOldem game. Matter of fact he "jumped the list" and someone was actually sent over to fill the seat. Floor realized that Huck was in the game already and told the other player that "Mr. Seed" is just playing a round or two and then it will be your seat".
Other player hung around awhile and then got a seat in another game at the same limit. Huck was still playing when I left which was about an hour later. Not sure how long he stayed in our $15-30 game or not, but trust me it was Huck. He played very aggressively and raised or folded every hand. 80% of the time, it was a raise. He never just called. (He was stuck about $300 when I left)
Brad Daugherty on the other hand appeared to be on the list to play and seemed to me that for whatever reason, $15-30 was his game of choice that weekend. Maybe he is playing lower limits now, I don't know. I played with him 2-3 hours on Saturday evening and 2-3 hours on Sunday evening. He then left the game on Sunday in time to go play in the 7pm Sunday Orleans tournament. Said on the way out, that Orleans tourney was a good way to pick up $5-6,000 in prize money. I didn't see him play any higher limit games, he seemed settled into ours. He and I chatted quite a bit since we have played before together in Reno at some of the Peppermill tournaments. I believe Reno is his home town. Matter of fact he talked about having some interest in moving back there in the future...... Brad's game was solid, but he didn't tend to tilt when beat. I haven't played with him enough to know if that is his usual style or not.
Mike Laing was in this same $15-30 game on Sunday afternoon, talked about going with Brad to tourney, but stayed and played several hours longer. MIke was in the #7 seat and I was #9, he talked non-stop.....and got real irritating.
Jack Keller I am sure was just killing time when I played $10-20 with him in Tunica MS last month over Labor Day weekend. Both of his sons, Jack Jr and Scott had played both $10-20 and $20-40 during the weekend with me. They weren't in the game at the time he played $10-20. I played with him about 2 hours or so, before he picked up and left room. Very much a quiet gentleman, never got out of line and never showed any frustration. NOt overly aggressive, just solid.
MOst of my prior exerience playing with bracelet winners obviously came in satellites or actual tournaments where the poker stars are forced to play with the peasants. But I did find it remarkable to run into these 3 in my live mid-limit games. So I thought to mention it here.
Regards, Diane from Green Bay
Diane,
Yeah, yeah, yeah. At the same table with Seed, Daugherty, Laing, Keller, and all those names. Yeah, yeah.
Lets see how you would do at the table with a real poker legend ----like Vince.
Interesting report even without specific hands. Paints a bleak picture if the "normal" weekend mid level games are mostly serious workers. Wonder if skp will find the same this weekend.
Abe
So Abe- Do I take this to mean you don't believe me?
That is your choice, but I am not fantasizing here. I only take the time here and on rgp to post what really happens in my occasional forays into the poker world.
I take my poker very seriously and don't post what I am not sure of. Poker is too important to me to try and embellish or make up things. I am proud of my poker record and always strive for credibility in this game. Enough hard to believe stuff happens every day, that there is no need to resort to fiction.
Diane
Oh no! Diane, I immediately and publicy apologize to you. I was not even thinking that you had not in fact been at the table with those guys. I have even seen the Tunica part myself with the Kellers at the "Shoe".
I'm sorry. I was just teasing and trying to insult Vince Lepore by putting him in the same class as those players.
Now, none of this changes the fact that I'm still a little dissapointed that you didn't take a rack of those $10 chips up on the balcony and play 3-6 with them along with Mason, Roy Cooke, etc. Next time!
Abe
Abe- Accepted.
You just really caught me off guard with your "Yeah, Yeah's".
Don't even have to go up on the balcony to play $30-60 at Bellagio. They spread in down in the low rent section right next to the $15-30 games that the peasants are in.
That's what made it so tempting......I could see what was going on and was fairly confident I could hold my own with them. But the big IF was "if I could play my usual style" at that limit. I wasn't sure I could. If I had made a few more racks of profit at $15-30 I would have tried it. 40-50% of the players had started at $15-30 and moved up.
Maybe next time....
Diane
Sounds like it was a good trip.
OK Diane, I can see why you told me the 15-30 game at bellagio was no good. You only averaged $55/hr (1.83 big bets). Poor baby!
I'll never recommend it to anyone else again.
Brett
"I cry for you, but my tears are tears of laughter!"
Brett- Just keep in mind that this is the FIRST time I booked a win at Bellagio and it took 4 trips to Bellagio to do it.
Read my earlier posts when all my money earned came from Mirage games or tourney side games, not the Bellagio ones. First three trips to Bellagio (January/Rio, April/WSOP, July/Orleans-TOC) were all losers every session I played at Bellagio.
Now shold I infer that I do better against the Las Vegas "locals" when there is no big poker event going on to bring in poker players from out of town? I am not sure. I just know that the mix I encountered last weekend was good for my playing style. I tend to do the best when I am the loosest player at the table. I can make money in a rock garden.
Games at Bellagio at $15-30 are TOUGH. I just had a nice run of cards and played them well (most of the time).
Diane Diane
I have never played with Huck or Brad in a ring game. However, based upon a relatively small sample size, I would welcome Mike to most games I was in. His style seems much too aggressive for a limit ring game, and is more suited to tournaments or maybe big bet poker. You just have to call him down more than other players to beat him, in the long run.
Don't forget the small sample size. He might have been on tilt the couple of times I played with him in SoCal.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
For those of you who remember the spamming that was going on, associated with this poker product, read on. This was lifted (with permission) from RGP.
Thanks again to Izmet Fekali for his review (one concurrant opinion responded to his- haven't seen any positive reviews yet...nor do I expect to). By the way, Izmet, I edited this for line spacing only, to create whole paragraphs.
***** A couple of weeks ago I mail-ordered a copy of AceSpade's Texas Hold'em Pro software. The CD arrived about ten days later and I spent the last week toying with it. As I suspect the rgp community might be interested in hearing about it, I am posting a full review here.
As rgp-ers are already quite familiar with the only other serious poker software, there will be some of comparisons to Wilson's Turbo in my review. After all, AceSpade Pro is consciously entering Turbo's niche both with it's price and marketing techniques (it was quite fun to watch both companies bash each other in magazine ads a few months back).
AceSpade Pro is a $79.95 piece of poker software. With this kind of a price tag I expected some serious shit worthy of the current competition. As the Wilson's Turbo retails for only $10 more ($89.95), AceSpade should at least come close to Wilson's quality if they expect to be taken seriously.
I got my CD in a simple, hard-paper envelope, no fancy packaging, no user's manual. As a free bonus, there was a CD with AceSpade's Carribean Stud Poker Deluxe (which I didn't try yet). So far, I like the approach and I like the bonus. I raised an eyebrow at the lack of the user's manual, but as I feel all great software should be self explanatory, I took it as a sign of Ace's confidence in their product.
Installation is trivial. I had it running in few minutes. Well, not exactly running. Crawling.
It's surprisingly slow. When I fire it up, it takes 45 secs to "load data", as it says in a tiny window. Now I'm probably missing something here, but what kind of data takes 45 secs to load on my 200 MHz pentium laptop? Weird.
There are no menus on the main screen, only six buttons: Start, Statistics, Option, Players, Help, Quit, all quite self explanatory. I hit Option first, to see what can be done with it. A window pops up with three buttons: Rule, Player and Cardback.
Under "Rule" it is possible to define the stakes (small blind, big blind and the maximum number of raises) and the rake. Nothing else whatsoever. The software is fixed to the standard limit structure of two blinds and doubling the bets on fourth street. The maximum small bet is $200 and this is a resentment I have towards Turbo also. As an European I'd like to have an option to play with Austrian schillings or Italian liras. This is of course impossible, as there is no way to enter 20.000.- as a small bet. I'm basically stuck with constantly converting from $ and am guilty of many mistakes while doing it.
Under "Player" you have two clickable options: to turn on/off the advisor and to stop the game after the human player folds (to avoid waiting the computer players to finish the hand).
"CardBack" window is for choosing the backs of the cards.
And that's about it for customizing.
To tell the truth, I was dumbfounded. Eighty bucks down the drain and I can't even change the structure to three blinds, can't make the computer players play with their hands face-up (a very valuable option for a novices IMO), can't play with an ante, can't define time collection, there's no sound alerts (announcing raises or number of players in the hand), there is no helpful odds screen and most importantly (to me, that is):
There is no way to do simulations with Ace Pro.
And this basically renders it totally unusable to me. It's a waste of time and money. Why would anybody spend eighty bucks to play poker against a machine for no stakes is beyond me. Even if that was the case, Ace Pro is way too slow to be of practical sparing purpose. The computer players take way too much time to make up their minds and there is a typical pause of about 10 or more seconds on every flop even when the human player is first to act. It deals the flop and than you have to wait. I can't imagine what it is is doing during this time.
On top of it's slowness, Ace Pro has another flaw. It is VERY difficult to follow the action. When it's my turn to act, I'm often totally lost as I don't know who raised or reraised. Turbo does this with a big "BET" or "CHECK" under the player's cards. In Ace Pro, you have to look at how much a player put in the pot to see if he raised or not. If there are many players in you have to check all of them to see who is the bettor. It's annoying.
I can't report on the quality of computer's play though. I simply did not have the nerve to spend time with it. Tried, but threw in the towel every time. It's just too slow. I can understand myself sitting at the table full of Italians, folding hand after hand, waiting for a kill. I'm getting paid to do that. I'm certainly not doing it against some cyber opponents with no cash to make my trouble worthwhile. Sorry. To make a fair evaluation, I'd have to spend at least a couple of hours toying with it. No way. Besides, I already ditched the CD.
I can offer a sample only, on one occasion the advisor suggested opening the pot with a limp with pocket jacks two off the button and stated I have a $44.3 expectation with a limp and only $41.2 expectation with a raise (in a $20-40 game). While this is wrong advice IMO, I'm actually very interested in the method of calculating those expectations. How on earth can it be done at all is what I ask. I suppose software programs have asses to pull these kind of figures out of.
The advisor is in a form of a small window popping up whenever your action disagrees with his. The window is bugged, as it is too small to display everything the advisor tries to tell you and there's no way to resize or scroll it. It lists $ expectation for a call and a raise. It says something else too, but I can only see the top few pixels of the text on the next line. Weird. When the advisor window pops up, you can confirm your action or choose another one.
I have to run now, Tournament of R00lerz is about to start, lets finish this as quickly as possible...
My advice?
Stay away. It's NOT worth the price. If you need a sparing partner and are not annoyed by waiting, it is maybe OK to purchase the AceSpade's Standard version. As far as I understand, it's the same software but without the advisor and without the option to set your own limits, but is considerably cheaper at $19.95.
But still, I strongly feel any serious poker player should do some sims research on Turbo. It is still the single most valuable purchase a poker player can make. Books are extremely valuable, but they don't even come close to Turbo.
Ace Pro? Just forget it.
Any questions are welcome. ---
Izmet Fekali
I've heard bits and pieces of info about AceSpades software but nothing as comprehensive as this report.I'm glad that I bought the Wilson software instead(from the looks of things,they have much better advertising than AceSpades).
Their triple-tiered pricing scheme was enough to have me steer clear. Maybe they'll improve the product and the pricing -- competition makes the world a better place.
It sure does - I am planning to bring out some "cheap and cheerful" Poker shareware pretty soon (currently being beta-tested). Watch this space.
Andy.
Are there any tables in Wisconsin, or do I have to go to Illinois or Iowa?
Thanks
Jon- Sorry to report that while Wisconsin has Indian Casinos, we only allow Bingo, Blackjack, and slots for gaming. No poker much to my disappointment.
WI is surrounded by poker by doesn't allow it as far as the gaming compacts are set up. These were all renewed last year for a 5-7 year period, so poker won't be here anytime soon.
Try MI, Iowa, Indiana or IL. Or hop a plane elsewhere like I do regularly.
Diane from Green Bay
Diane,
If I wanted to play a $5-$10 or smaller, where would I be better off -- Iowa or Illinois. I live in Madison, so either one is convenient for me logistically.
Thanks.
Jon- I am sorry I really can't help. I haven't played in Iowa for two years and have NEVER played in IL. I would have to defer to someone who has current experience in both locations.
I *know* they both have poker, but don't want to steer you wrong on current game conditions.
Hopefully some other midwest player can be of more help. I play higher limits and always hop a plane to get to my games. THe other reason I don't play in the midwest is the lack of hotel+casinos on the same property. I generally travel alone and don't want to have to worry about security when leaving the casino to find my motel room.
Diane
Jon:
Given the fact I play on a rather consistent basis in both places, I'll give you my two cents on both locations. Mind you I at this point in time only play 7 card stud, not to say I don't know how to play Texas Hold'em or Omaha. In fact, Omaha hi/lo always seems to catch my interest. That said, coupled with the fact I also live in Madison, here is my two cents.
I play in Dubuque on almost weekly basis for the sheer reason that I can jump on Highway 151 and be there in roughly an hour in a half. As well, the 1-4 stud game there is always going on, the rake relatively low (can't think of it offhand), and there is no ante, something I will get back to later. Moreover, the players in Dubuque are pretty much cut from the same in cloth in that on average they are somewhat decent players and they think about what you have as they play their hands allowing for semi-bluffing of which I do until the cows home, but at the same time, they still (as most low limit players) don't know what a starting hand is if it came up and kicked them in the ass. As well, you can get paired door cards paid off quite nicely, but not as nice as.......
The 1-5 stud game down in Aurora, Illinois, a roughly two and half hour drive from Madison if you stay on the interstate. Otherwise you can drive it in two if you want to tour throught the western exurbs of Chicago, traffic of course being an influencing factor. Now, if you please, I will tell you why you should go to Dubuque if you have the choice. First of all, the rake is higher and caps out at 5$ which occurs quite often because the Chicago folks bring much more money to the table and they just loooooovvveeee seeing 7 cards anytime their in a hand. Secondly, it's going to cost you more to get down there considering gas and tolls. Okay, that's the nickel and dime stuff, but let's talk about quarters now, which is what you pay as an ante every hand down there. For example I played down there last Monday for 9 hours, the last time may I add, and probably coughed up, well you do the math. If I played 20 hands an hour, that's 5$ an hour for a total of 45$ in ante cough up alone. Granted, some of that came back to me in pots won and antes stolen. Buuuuutttt, 20 hands an hour to my understanding may be conservative, and many a time I've been down there where a 3rd street raise I've made must have been covered in superglue with a "Let's party" sign written on it. Meaning, my pair of Kings would oh so many times be up against 4 or 5 or 6 players even before our 4th cards hit. Now mind you, most of them if not more wouldn't know what a starting hand was if it kicked them in the ass, and of course their going to run your ass for seven cards no matter what they have. In a nutshell, many times it's a loony game, as that quarter bleeds from your stack every 3 minutes. Oh yeah, and did I mention they like to raise, often with whatever, something the Dubuque folks will pretty much only do when they have something, or about to have something. In other words, there's a least a semblance of sanity in their actions. The Aurora game borderlines on Barnum and Bailey during the times I've been there, not always, but more often than not, and statistically too frequent to spend 5 hours of road time to find out.
Of course, I've rather coursely spouted out a stud player's view of both places. If your looking for a 5-10$ stud game, and higher, you should make a run to Aurora and check out their numerous games that always seem to be going on when I've been there. As well, Joilet has a poker room too of which I played at once along time ago. Mind you, I've only been in the poker realm for a little over a year now.
That all said, I work for an airline and can fly round trip to Vegas for $30... which makes playing in Dubuque as exciting as french kissing your grandma.
All the best,
Joe
A Correction:
I meant to say if your looking for a 5-10$ HOLD'EM game and higher, you should check out Aurora. They also play Omaha Hi/lo at much higher levels. Stud tops at 1-5.
1000 apologies,
Joe
Jon:
As Diane said - We're in the poker wasteland here.
I've played exclusively at Hollywood Casino in Aurora since discovering Hold Em six months ago. They also spread 1-5 7stud and 10-20 HE. I live in Waukesha and take 43s to 90 to 39S to 88E, it's about 2:15 for me.
I've always felt that the 5-10 games (initially a little big for a newbie and his bankroll) were tougher than most Low LImit games you'd find. Now, after 89 hours (+$700) I think it's a pretty typical mix of opponents.
I heard last night that the Empress in Joliet also spreads a 3-6 game.
Hope it helps.
-Michael
Be the flop.... See the flop.... You're not being the flop, Danny.
Thanks all! When I'm ready to roll I'll probably head to Dubuque. I'm more comfortable with HE, but I'm trying to improve in 7CS.
Either way, I'm a newbie fresh outta school with no serious bucks to play with. I'm reading and experimenting with friends, but it will be a while before I am ready to use your advice.
Thanks again.
Recently read a message in another poker group about a game in Madison, on Fennimore St. Porky's Porker, said new game. Well, there is no Fennimore street in Madison. I shall be in Madison for the month of November. If anyone could help find this place, would love to play. I live in Oregon. Thanks alot, Paula Hauso
Recently read a message in another poker group about a game in Madison, on Fennimore St. "Porky's Poker", said new game. Well, there is no Fennimore street in Madison. I shall be in Madison for the month of November. If anyone could help find this place, would love to play. I live in Oregon. Thanks alot, Paula Hauso
A good way to get in touch with other Madison players is drop by the Miss Marquette, in Iowa. First weekend of the month they have a tournament, plenty of side action (5-10, 10-20 with 20-40 overs).
I'm not sure about next month, however. Meskwaki (in Tama, IA) has a big tournament the same weekend.
Good Luck.
TWIMC,
If anyone should be unhappy with this it probably should be me I have probably deleted more of my posts in the short time that I have been here than SMZ have since they originated this forum. I use it as cleaning up something I have wrote that no one has responded to or something in it seems inappropriate the next day when I reread it. I will be sorry to see it go, but I would like to see it returned if we can cure the dangling participles. So everyone have a nice weekend.
Paul
ps: I made up a chart for places to play that are Non-Smoking rather than offend anyone if you would like this it is not very long but it's a start. The only place besides USA I have is British Colombia, so I guess it's all smoking in Europe, Australia, etc. Just email me if your interested and I'll attach it to the email.
Does anyone here know a player called jitterbug in Vegas. I think he plays at the Horseshoe. If anyone know him let him no that the younger player who took excpetion to his cheating (ok it was just shooting an angle) would still like to play him heads up at the game and stakes of his choice as long as the game takes place on the strip. Also if he still wants to fight we can do that, but only if he is willing to bet on the outcome.
Randy Refeld
I forgot to mention that if he wants to play I'm listed in the Vega phone book or he can find me at work.
Randy Refeld
Ray Zee sitting at big tabel and holding cort.
He telling funny story about how he track down and kill giant Polar bear!
Hole tabel have eyes wide shut!
Then, he say, "I threw my spear and it hit the bar right in the nose'/!
Someone say, then what hapened then what hapened!
Ray Zee say...alarm clark go off and me wake up and go feed chickens.
that not how it happen ...
....
Ray Zee say .. eskimo clark go back in the woods and me wake up and play another hand ...
I'll be in Vegas the 15th thru the 25th and your thread has convinced me to stay well away from the Bellagio. Hell, I've made more at the Mirage's 5-10 stud than anything else, with the Orleans tourneys a close second, and the Orleans now spreads 10-20 HE.
Plus, the last time I was there, I played the Wed. night stud tournament with an Asian girl who, believe it or not, is even prettier than Huck's girlfriend or her friend..:)
Bill- Why from my post would you steer clear of Bellagio? If Diane from Green Bay can make money at Bellagio, it can't be that hard for others. I certainly will make it my first choice when I return again to Vegas.
I don't play stud except for short spurts while waiting for another Holdem seat, so I can't comment on those games. Orleans generally only gets $10-20 on weekends to my knowledge. Unless you count the $6-12 with a kill to be a $10-20 game, which I don't.
I do like the Orleans tourneys, so we agree there and the jackpots are a nice touch in the lower limits. But for red chip games, you only have two consistent choices, Bellatio and Mirage. I like both.
Have a great trip and may your cards run well.
Diane
BillM,
Don't boycott the Bellagio because of me. Dang! And I was gonna try to get a buffet comp from them on my next trip. Now what chance do I have?
Abe
I'll be in Vegas the 15th-25th. How have the Orleans tourneys, 10-20, jackpots, etc. been lately? Also what about the Mirage's 5-10 stud?
Hi all,
I have played a bunch in the past in Lake Tahoe for winter vacations and skied in the mornings. My son is now 21, and a hell of a player (and a fun guy to ski with) and I want to do a father-son ski/poker winter vacation this year.
I have heard that Lake Tahoe is down to one game, and 4-8 only? Is this true? If so, anyone have any other locations good for poker and ski? HELP!
Mark
It can't be that far from Vancouver, where I've heard the $10-20 action is pretty reasonable, and you can't beat the skiing. Albequerque is something of a drive from the mountain, but there's $5-10 to pot limit and the action is supposed to be great. As for Colorado, our skiing outranks our poker by about 100-1, but the $5 limit games are less than an hour from Summit County/Vail, and the $35 (2 rebuy) NL tournament at Bullwackers in Blackhawk on Thursday nights is a blast (call and arrive very early).
Chris,
Thanks!
Mark
There's also Sandia Peak just outside Albequerque -- not renowned as a destination ski area, but I always liked trying little places like that when I skied (haven't in recent years). Also, someone on RGP posted a question about a poker game reported to be spread at the Huntley Lodge in Big Sky Montana. I have no other info. about it. Finally, if there's any skiing near where Ray Zee lives in Montana, I would guess he might be willing to get together a nice little three-handed 300-600 game. ;-)
lake tahoe
reno
las vegas
oregon
washington
montana(big mountain, redlodge, big sky, missoula)
whistler b.c.
calgary alberta
colorado
michigan
austria
germany
iran(not recommended)
slovenia
some of the places may be a little drive away but not out of reach.
Where should I turn to learn how to do some of the more advanced poker math? Books or internet sites?
I really appreciated the tables and charts Sklansky had in the back of Hold'em Poker. I can't figure my odds with two or more cards to come, etc.
Any suggestions would be very appreciated.
Jon,
If you have the time you can take a math course at a local college for short money on probability, but someone would probably tutor you through email on this forum.
Paul
Why not just read Getting the Best of It.
Read the probability sections in either the beginning of Getting the Best of It or at the end of Gambling for a Living. Or read The Hold 'Em Odds Book (I think that's the title; green in paper) by Mike Petriv. The math is pretty simple; once you've got it it's more important to spend some time with a paper, pencil and calculator.
Most bad beat stories aren't all that interesting. I've only racked up 150 hours of playing time and I've already had a few beauties. But this one is an interesting one (I think) with a little twist.
I'm playing 3-6 Hold'em at the Mirage late afternoon this past Friday and things are going well (for those that care I made $195 in 5.5 hours and that session accounted for most of my winnings on the weekend). Anyway I'm in the Big Blind with 4c3s. UTG limps, as do a couple other players, SB folds, I check.
Flop is 5h4h3. I check, UTG bets, it's folded to me and I raise. The dealer is busy chatting to some of the players and burns a card and exposes the turn card 4d before UTG responds or I have a chance to say 'Hold it, I raised.' The dealer then apologizes and tells UTG that there was a raise and the 4d was exposed permaturely and will not play but be put back in the deck and the deck reshuffled. UTG calls the raise, dealer calls the floor to confirm the procedure from this point. Floor says, pull the 4d and set it aside. Burn and turn, then put the 4d back into the deck and reshuffle. Dealer burns and exposes the Ah as the turn card (and what would have been the river). I check, UTG bets, I call. River is 8c, I check, UTG bets, I call and immediately turn over my 43 with some mild annoyance that the dealer has likely cost me a pot. UTG does, in fact, turn over a flush. The 3h2h for a straight flush. The dealers mistake turns out to saves me a couple or three big bets.
As an aside, I was not sure how to handle toking the dealer should I win any pots while she's dealing, since her mistake turned out to benefit me. If it would have been my pot, I simply would not have toked her at all. However, even though the mistake saved me money, she wasn't paying attention to the game and cost a player money.
I ended up toking her $0.50 (my usual was $1 for a reasonable size pot) on the two hands I won while she was at the table. I'm undecided as to whether not toking at all would still have been appropriate.
Hi,
Here is another strange beat that wasn't, my dealer was paying *too* much attention:
I am in BB with T3o. I limp in with two others. I get T3x on the flop and bet. Others limp call. (I am second to act to SB). Turn comes 3. It is checked to me, and before I can bet, guy after me bets. Guy to my right calls, and as I am saying "raise", dealers says "Third guy acted out of turn, before you (me) could make an initial bet." True. But my raise is already out. Dealer and floor both insist we start the turn over, I was pissed, the third guy, who is a loud obnoxious regular got a real break, I was stuck since I have never seen a dealer be SOOOO sharp. A miracle, I got one caller to the end - the SB. And yes, my full house won....but cost me a lot of bets.
Mark
PS This was in the Garden City in no. cali. I like the place, the action is good and the dealers are very good (usually) much better than the eastern joints.
Rjk:
It just goes to show that dealer mistakes are sort of neutral in the long run. This dealer made a mistake which benefited you. Next week another dealer may make one which hurts you.
I'm a dealer in Missouri and I think that toking should be done if the dealer has rendered respectable service during his/her 30 minute shift. I DON'T believe in holding grudges.
Your dealer commited a major mistake and should probably be toked less for that session. You did the right thing. next time she deals to you just wipe the slate clean and see how the service is.
John
Rjk - I agree - I toke every hand I win if over $15 - a couple of particurally nice and good dealers get $1 or $2 if I had a good 1/2 hour session with them. There are 2 dealers at my regular club that I start with a clean slate with every time but they screw it up and hardly get any tokes from the regulars.
The regional *ARG event (MARGE) being held in Biloxi,Mississippi on November 18th-November 20th is proud to announce that Gary Carson will be our featured speaker. Gary is the author of "The Complete Book of Hold'em Poker" which will be released as soon as the bankruptcy issues of the publisher are resolved. He will be speaking on a topic that will be of interest to all poker players and to Gulf Coast players in particular. That topic will be thinking about the game with special focus on double bet on the end games. The typical structure of these games is 3-6-12 or 5-10-20 or 10-20-40. After his talk, he will be open to questions on any topic from the attendees. Gary is well known to most of RGP and I am sure his appearance will generate a lot of interest. This event as well as all other official MARGE events are open only to registered MARGE participants. Registrations must take place over the internet at www.conjelco.com/marge.html. I hope you take the time to visit the site and find out more about MARGE. Instructions on how to join our mail list are below.
Randy Collack, Steve Jewett, Chad Nelson, MARGE Organizing Committee
You can subscribe to the Marge List by sending e-mail to majordomo@conjelco.com with a body which reads subscribe marge
I don't mean any disrespect but who is Gary Carson???
Dice
Gary Carson is a regular poster to RGP as well as an infrequent but getting more frequent poster here on 2+2. He has some interesting thoughts on loose games that sometimes run against the popular wisdom. Gary always seems to generate responses with his postings and we hope he generates the same interest when he speaks at MARGE. As I mentioned his book is currently held up due to the bankruptcy of the publisher but hopefully that will be resolved in the near future. If he has anything to add to this, I am sure I will read about it here. For more info on MARGE go to www.conjelco.com/marge.html
Randy Collack
You can subscribe to the Marge List by sending e-mail to majordomo@conjelco.com with a body which reads subscribe marge
I'm curious. I'm wondering how many times Gary Carson will say "Mason Malmuth" in his little talk at Marge. I'll bet he can't get through the evening without mentiong Mason at least once.
This is his claim to fame. Dissing Mason.
Post deleted at author's request.
Anyone knows the rules for Mississippi Stud?
Thx,
Carlos
I' m getting ready to spend a few days in TN and was wondering if there was any legal poker in the Chattanooga area?
I am reading 7CSFAP, and I must admit that I have never played 7CS in a casino.
I am having a little trouble following the betting procedures.
For example, at a $15-$30 table on third street, the low card "brings it in" for $5. A subsequent caller can call this bring-in or bump it up to $15 (which constitutes a raise?).
Now in later betting rounds, the low hand still is first to act, but has the option to check.
Is this all correct? Thanks, in advance.
On the following rounds, the HIGHEST hand is first to act. This can change from round to round, and pairs count for high. The limit doubles on the fifth card, and if the high hand has a pair he can make a double bet on the fourth card as well. I'm not sure what happens if there are two pairs on fourth street and the first one checks.
Bill,
Thanks.
It does not matter if the pair checks or not. Anybody can make it a double bet at this point. Even if the pair were to bet a single bet you can raise double if you wish too.
Example he or she bets 15 you call the 15 + raise another 30
Jon,
A small clarification: Bumping the bring-in to $15 is formally considered a completion, not a raise. The significance of this is that only so many "raises" are allowed each betting round (usually three or four), and "completing" the bet does not count as one of them. For example: If the raise limit is four per round, and there are three or more live hands, the first round in the $15-$30 could cost $5 for the bring-in, plus $10 for the completion, plus four $15 raises.
Tom D
Unfortunately I live in an area where there are no card rooms. (or casinos for that matter). I was wondering what was the legality of local home games that you can find. I have heard that as long as there is no rake, then it is o.k. I would like to play in some local games but I do not want to risk any problems. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
A quick survey of WI law shows that the very act of making a bet is worthy of a misdemeanor. Taking a rake would constitute earning profits from a gambling place, and is worthy of a felony. How these laws are actually enforced in practice is a different matter. However, they are on the books, at least here.
Your state laws may also require that in addition to no rake, at least half the players at such a home game know each other.
not too often do the players get in much trouble for playing in a home game. all states are different though. in high stakes rake games the police may raid the game and there could be problems but ive never heard where it was too bad for anyone except the owner. when i ran games i called the police and told them we had a poker game and there would be cars late at night in front of the house so they could be informed if anyone called. they always thanked me and never bothered the games.
Calling the Cops on your own Home Game? Now thats a first. I take it that you play or played in a small town? Though coming from Ray, it must be good advice. I'll have to call my Sheriff and see what he has to say. It will at least be interesting.
Later, CV (getting ready for the winter games)
I'm a lawyer, though I am not giving you any legal advice (i.e., you can't sue me if you follow my advice and it's wrong, OK?).
In some states, what you say is true. A home game with no rake or other charge is legal. In many states, any gambling is illegal, no matter what. So, the only way to be sure is to check with a local attorney, or your local authorities.
Ray mentions telling the police about his home games. This is probably a good idea no matter what. Call the local police chief or sheriff, and ask them about it. Tell them you want to invite some friends over to play poker, and is that OK in that state/city? Even if it's against state law, if the local police say it's OK, then the chances of you getting arrested or anything else negative happening is probably pretty low.
If it is illegal, and you decide to do it anyway, make sure you know the risk you're taking. In many cases, the risk is minimal. In my case, the risk is huge. If I got arrested, even a misdemeanor, I am risking being disbarred and losing my career. If your career has no such risk entailed, then you're risking much less than me.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
No responses to my first post --- so let's try one last time
Has anyone played in Costa Rica?
The basic questions are --- ---where (specifically which casinos) ---what games and limits (HE vs Stud) ---hours of operation ---dress code if any ---are the games conducted in English or Spanish
thanks very much
I have started playing some 8 or better this week, and had the following hand in a 4-8 game. I had 2 jacks with a K9 of spades in the BB. There are about 6 callers pre-flop, and the flop comes J94 all hearts. I am second, and a pretty decent player who makes good laydowns bets out first. I raise and get 1 other caller. Original raiser reraises. I call and other caller calls.
Turn is a black deuce. Bet, call, call.
River is a 9 clubs. First player checks, I check, other caller bets. First player mucks A high flush face up, I raise and get called.
Comments, esp. on post - flop round? Thanks in advance.
Oops. Didn't realize which forum I was on. I reposted on the strategy forum. Sorry.
I was playing in the little Saturday stud tournament at the Park this weekend and asked to see a tricky player's hand after he called someone and lost a crucial pot.
Later in the tournament, this player leaned over and told me that as someone who worked in the gambling industry and played in major tournaments all over the world, he was going to give me a tip. He explained that requesting to see a player's hand after he's been beaten out of a substantial pot in a tournament is poor etiquette and will stand to make me a lot of enemies.
He said that I was misusing the rule. The option of asking to see a player's hand was only created to prevent collusion, not to gain information on a player's style of play.
Is there any validity to these claims?
He's right about the etiquette of the situation. And he appears to have explained the rationale behind the rule properly. While I doubt doing this will make you a "lot" of enemies, it certainly won't make you beloved.
Overall, you are probably better off not asking unless you suspect collusion. Then, the purpose of asking is not just to detect collusion, but to inform the players that you suspect them of colluding.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
It's poor form to ask to see a player's hand after you have just beaten him. It's perfectly OK to ask to see a hand when you're not the one scooping the pot. Obviously, this shouldn't be done often.
I think it is rude to ever ask to see a hand. I would like to see more places elimniate that rule as the Stratosphere in Las Vegas has.
Randy Refeld
It is not only bad etiquette to see a players hand when you win it may be suicide cuz if the winner asks to see his hand it is still live and he just might have misread it.
I only ask to see the hand of a table bully who is trying to run over the table and buying pots. If I can't isolate this guy I may just ask to see his hand if no on e else does.
How cares if I make an enemy of him it might just help me later.
Does anyone have any feel whether this is a good tourney in Vegas?
Since this tournament has never been held before, it's hard to predict. However, since I live in Connecticut, and Foxwoods has it's big tournament series in early December, I'll definitely be skipping this one in LV.
Good Luck, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I believe that this will be a crummy tournament in essentially every aspect. However, in January, the Carnival of Poker which will be held this year at Harrahs should be a great tournament. I would wait for that one.
So Mason- Please enlighten us why you feel this will be a "crummy" tournament.
Because of the tournament director?
Time of year?
Please explain.
Diane
The answer is yes to everything.
The tournaments at The Four Queens which this guy ran were considered crummy. Sam's Town is not a center for great poker. Being off strip hurts. There are too many other tournaments. It's not a good time of year. Sam's Town, though a very popular casino considering how busy it is is a casino that I do not find comfortable. There is also a lot of construction there. Parking is though. You name it.
I do like the idea of no smoking though.
I have come across two terms that I do not recognize.
1. What's a straddle?
2. What's a chop?
Thanks
Straddle - First to act player posts double the big blind before the hand is dealt; thus essentially becoming the big blind (he can raise callers when it gets back to him), and forcing everyone else to play for the double bet. This doesn't count as a raise, nor affect the later betting rounds.
Chop - Everyone folds to the blinds who then take their money back. The button moves and a new hand is dealt. You can't, however, chop a straddled pot.
Why would you ever straddle? It seems that you are doubling the bet in early (and thus weak) position without even seeing your cards.
Occassionally, esp. if I think it'll loosen the game up.
Why do people play roulette ? If you can figure out the answer to that, it'll be the same.
Andy.
There are very few good reasons to straddle, and almost none in a limit game.
In a PL or NL game, straddling means you'll get to act least preflop, which has some obvious benefits. However, the tough question is whether the benefits are worth the price. Maybe, in some games, but overall, I don't feel it's worth the price.
In a limit game, the only reason that seems justifiable (in terms of EV) is if you expect your straddle, done once or twice, to significantly loosen up the game. In most cases, this won't work, and when it does, the effect won't last long enough to justify the expense.
There may be exceptions, i.e., situations where it is +EV to straddle, but I suspect they are very rare.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Three situations come to mind where it may indeed be a positive EV play disregarding the possible side effect of loosening up the game. Heads up play where the button is also the small blind. Here it's an excellent play as long as your opponent is not inclined to restraddle, or also make the straddle on the button. Three handed with normal blinds if you are clearly a better player than both of your opponents. Again you are straddling on the button, and thereby acting last on all streets. Multi-handed kill game when you have the kill button in the natural straddle position (UTG - first after the big blind). Now you are protecting the forced third blind by posting an additional bet equal to the small bet in the kill structure. This can be a reasonable play if the other players in the game are only infrequently raising pre-flop, don't adjust their cold call or reraise starting hand requirements, and you play well after the flop in shorthanded situations.
I have been gambling for 40 years mostly pool, horses private poker & black jack. When I was a young man at Arlington Park we'd bet on the next person around the corner waiting for the next race - You know weather thay had a hat, were male of female real ramdom stuff. BUT is all my experience a straddle is by far the dumbest wager in all of gambling bar none.
Thanks Rounder.
This should probably go on the other forum, but how do you stop a dumby from doing it?
Jon,
You want them to do it. They stop when they are out of $$.
Mark the K
PS When I played two weeks ago in Northern Ca (Garden City Casino), while on a business trip, this guy comes over from the 20-40 game. (to the 6-12). He immediately straddles. He convinces his friend, already in the game to straddle. He convinces his friend to raise every pot with him, WITHOUT LOOKING AT THEIR CARDS! They went through $1k each in about 44 minutes (I put them on my stopwatch). I got none of this, even though I was 3 seats to their left, I kept getting all rags pre-flop. Fun to watch. Real gamblers! Real men! Actually, real losers... Hahahah.
Mark thanks for the post. If gave me a much needed laugh today. I've seen these Bozos all over the country they are a wonder to watch Only problem is the good cards never show up while they still have any money.
Try to isolate the straddler by making it three bets with position plus hands that you would normally cold call a raise with (including some borderline starting cards like AJ or KQ which you would have mucked for two bets), and expect the pot to be capped pre-flop anyway.
Do you consider Ray Zee a dumb wagerer? Check the earliest of the Theory and Strategy archives, I remember someone asking why Barbara Entright straddles, with a reply from Ray Zee outlining conditions where this IS a good play. Go ask Bob Ciaffone how he's fared with the experimental kill straddle. You probably don't know me from a hole in the wall (although poker is my job too), so I understand the adverse comments. Controversial for sure, but I suggest that players have been brainwashed into believing that a straddle is ALWAYS a terrible option. I do agree that most straddlers are just looking for action and that this is very often a negative EV move, but try to keep an open mind to the possibilities anyway.
Ray,
I just can't think of any reason to wager with out all the information possible and putting your self at a disadvantage "ON PURPOSE" by your raising blind in real bad position just to get one more bet in. Unless you want to project a wild man table image, which may be a strategy, it looks like a looser to me.
If there is something I am missing I'd sure like to know.
Andrew is right and points to some of the times it may be 100% correct to straddle. playing shorthanded it is a big money winner when conditions are right and your opponents will let you do it.
Did you give up on the buffet after they stiffed you on the comp and settle for one of those $7, 20 minute wait hotdogs from the 'pub' next to the poker room, instead?
HA! No real bad results like that yet. Just got turned down -- twice. Once politely and the other time not so politely. And I thought sessions of 5 and 7 hours would do the trick. Is this a marketing ploy? "The stinginess mystique"?
Oh well, as a twice a year tourist, its still part of the sightsee game. See the pirate ship battle, see the lightshow, ask for the Bellagio buffet poker comp.
Did get the buffet comp from The Mirage poker room on the last trip, and will play there again on the next trip.
Fer cryin out loud, Abe. You pick your poker room based on a lousy buffet comp? That reminds me of the people who are paying $50 a round in blinds at 30-60, and then leave the game when it's time to pay the $5 collection.
Btw, I've never tried the hotdogs at Sam's Snacks, but everything else there is excellent. The Ahi Tuna club is worth every penney(about $11).
Also, did you really beg Vince to come back to 2+2? What were you thinking?
Brett
About that Vince: Yeah--- ask, recommend, beg--somewhere in that range. I'm glad he is back posting here, and I'm sure that everyone fully agrees with that.
About that Bellagio: Thanks for the tip on the tuna sandwich. Maybe next time when they stiff me out of the buffet again, Vince will buy me a sandwich.
Anyone ever play in this? What's the turnout/prize pool like? How about the Sun. Stud tourney?
This is probably a FAQ, but,I know that David has won three WSOP events, and Mike Sexton also mentioned his record in Card Player a few months ago. I haven't seen David's name in a tourney result listing for year's and have only seen Mason play one tourney ever; Gold Coast $120 LHE 1995.
Do the two of you not/no longer enjoy tourneys, think side games more profitable, etc.?
Not to imply that I don't think you have valuable advice on tourneys...
I finished sixth in The Diamond Jim Brady Draw Poker Tournament in 1987 and finished sixth again the nest day. Since then I have only played a very small number of tournaments.
I don't play the tourneys for several reasons. They are: 1. The side games are often at their very best during the tournaments. 2. Because of our publishing work I often don't have the time to spend in a card room playing a tournament. 3. I'm not 100 percent confident that they are as clean as the side games. 4. I don't enjoy them as much.
With this being said, I may try a couple of events at The Carnival of Poker which will be held at Harrahs in January.
I have heard that the Mirage is spreading 20-40 Stud Hi-Lo and that Palace Station is spreading 5-10. Is this, in fact, true, and if so, what're the games like?
See all ya'll at the next two Sat night Orleans tourneys, BTW..:)..I'll be the guy stiffing, ERRR, lightly toking, the dealers after hitting the bad beat jackpot..
I am interested in possibly becoming a casino poker dealer. What is the least expensive way to go about this? I would need some type of correspondence course since there are no dealer training schools near me.
Also, what about the age factor. Most of the dealers I see are in their 20's or 30's. I am in my early 50's. Will this be a problem for me?
Thanks in advance for your response.
Walter whutch@aristotle.net
Hi;
I think someone (Rick Nebiolo) here before stated that it's possible to have a non-frames version of the Poker Gambling Forum displayed without the Green side bar on the left hand side of the screen.
If Rick or someone else could provide that URL, I would greatly appreciate it. The green side bar (frame) I could do without..
Thanks...
in netscape you can right click and then open frames in new window then have the forum in one big window. except that there is a one in 350 chance that your hair will fall out when you do this.
Poker Nerd,
I thought I posted this last night. Oh well, I must have hit the wrong key. The URL for the non frames version of the Exchange is:
http://www.twoplustwo.com/cgi-bin/exchange.pl
The URL for the non frames version of the Theory and Strategy Forum is:
http://www.twoplustwo.com/cgi-bin/xforum.pl
BTW, I didn't use Ray Zee's method but stumbled into it some other way that escapes me right now. And I still have hair.
Regards,
Rick
My daughter wants us to take her to Vegas for her 21st B-Day I wanted to stay at Binoins but they are booked any ideas of where I can get 3 rooms for this time of year.
I like the Orleans Poker room.
Mark
Marriott residence inn usually has rooms. Also try microsoft expedia.
http://expedia.msn.com/daily/home/
Brett
Does anyone know L.V.? He's a very strong medium/big stud player with an English accent. Plays mostly LA; Commerce and the Park. Maybe late 40s/early 50s. He utterly destroyed a 6-12 game I was at on Sunday. It was phenomenal. He sat down, put everyone on tilt with a few nasty comments, then had a field day. I don't venture much above 15-30 yet but this guy is hands down the best stud player I've ever sat with. A pure joy to watch in action.
I know there are computer newsgroups but this question is one I would prefer answers from readers of this forum.
I have Earthlink as an ISP and service is slow. I'm getting an OK deal of an upgrade to DSL via an Earthlink/Pac Bell special partnership.
I assume general net surfing will be vastly improved if all goes well. But I'm wondering if it will be that much better in accessing 2+2. It seems a lot of the lag is waiting for the server to respond (especially during peak periods). I'm not sure how DSL will help here since message blocks are short anyway.
Any comments are appreciatted.
Regards,
Rick
Rick -- As you know I have mixed feelings about @home, my ISP, which is cable. But I will mention that recently the 2+2 Forum has been mostly *very* fast for me. I think Chuck made some change which increased speed a couple of months ago, didn't he? But if you're still getting consistent lags waiting for posts to load after you click them, then I'm guessing it's your ISP. Typically, I'm having posts appear within about 2 secs max these days when I click them.
John,
You are probably right. Earthlink continues to get worse. Still, there are times when connecting to the big sights like Yahoo is fast but this one is at a crawl. I hope Mason plows a little of that ad money into faster servers or whatever. The forum is growing fast and needs them.
Regards,
Rick
Rick, I've got two comps. The one at my office is on Earthlink (56k, but connects at 28.8). At my home I have Pacbell DSL (which is a great thing, especially for online gaming). I access this site 2-3 times per week on both comps. The difference? The DSL system is only moderately faster and yes you still have to wait on 2+2 to connect. There is a difference but not what you might expect when going from 28.8 to 1.5M. The forum just doesn't have enough bandwidth to handle the volume it gets. With that said, however, DSL is much faster in general and overall is definetely worth it.
Chuck and All,
I'm not talking about Bocelli (well, I guess the music snobs call that "Popera") but the independent browser called Opera 3.0, which has about 1% of the market and is provided by a company in Norway. I have a free 30 day trial version and it does seem faster for this sight (it is known for speed). It allows you to easily toggle graphics which helps quite a bit. I'm not yet sure whether I will send them the $30 as I have 20 days left on my trial (BTW, the trial is for 30 days of use rather than 30 days in absolute terms).
If interested, the URL for Opera is:
http://www.opera.com/index.html
Regards,
Rick
It's a much faster and configurable browser than either IE or NS. Also, it's much smaller. Only negative is that you may need an external mail client as you can only send mail with it - not retreive it.
Version 3.6 is the latest. Get it, you won't be dissapointed!
John
mine loads fast enough for me at 45,000. takes a couple of seconds but i dont log on too much in peak periods. besides if i get done too quick i dont have any excuse for not going out and splitting firewood. i have to run now as i think i saw Rick run by and i want to follow him to see where he goes all the time in such a hurry.
p.s. Rick,
if you didnt spend so much time typing in capitals you would have more quality free time(;-}.
i'm with you ray. look at those buffoons wasting time with capital letters.
scott
Rick:
A recent PC MAG Survey found that Earthlink was one of the worse ISP around. I should know, I had them for about 6 months. They are slow and you get lots of busy signals. Try ATT. Their connections are relatively fast with NO busy signals.
John
I use 2+2 at home on att isp and in the office occasionally on our dedicated t1 line.
it is fast for me for either setup 95% of the time, slightly faster on my office t1. My home setup is pretty good, though, 56k on 450mz p3. att is a good fast isp.
sometimes the 2+2 site has gotten very slow, but very infrequently.
when i type in all lc, like rz, it is much faster!
mark the k
ps maybe thinking in lc will free up enough brain cells to make me a good player like rz
Rick - I also have a comparison. At work my bandwidth is blindingly fast - ethernet to my workstation, and internet access through Motorola's corporate gateway, which I believe is right on MCI's internet backbone. The entire Forum still takes a while to load - 15 seconds or more, typically. Individual messages come up within a second or 2.
At home I have good old pedestrian AOL (my wife likes it, honest), with a 56k modem, and it is somewhat slower, but I really don't have a complaint. For my call-up access, I rarely get a busy signal even once anymore; they have solved their early access problems. And the forum download is only a little slower than at work.
From your other responses, it sounds possible that earthlink is your bottleneck. If you are still too slow after the DSL upgrade, you will know.
Dick
We are going to the UK at year end - we'll be staying west of London near Maidenhead (I lived there most of the 80's) can anyone tell me where they are spreading hold'em in the area - is it all pot limit like I've heard or is there limit poker being played.
Cheers,
Hi Rounder,
I'm not sure exactly where Maidenhead is but you should be able to find a nearby club if you check out www.poker-in-the-uk.com . There is a lot more poker spread now than 10 years ago. Reading might not be too far and you have the Stakis and the Victoria in London. I believe it is a legal requirement that you visit the casino 24 hours before you are allowed to play, successive governments have been very concerned that a massive gambling problem might arise. Doesn't stop them running a lottery - go figure. Anyway I digress.
Effectively it is all pot-limit, there are some occasional limit games around but they will tend to be very small even if you can find them. Normal procedure is for a cardroom to put on regular pot-limit tournaments with cash games starting up as people get knocked out. Dealer's choice is quite common - expect a lot of 6-card Omaha. D'Oh.
If you are a good tournament player you should more than hold your own. Just watch out for the sharks in the cash games.
Also check out the European Poker Players Association site which is in the links section here.
Good luck,
Andy.
Thanks Andy - Reading is just 20 min down the M-4 and I know about the 24 hour rule but if you get a member to sign you in it is OK right. I can remember being in Hull over night and hiring a cab driver who was a member to sign me in and I paid his idle fare rate for him to stay there it was worth it won $1500 pounds at black jack and roulette that night.
Nuts huh!
Cheers
I am making my first trip down to Vegas the Weekend of the 23rd and I am wondering where I can find a good game of Low-Limit Hold'em. I am pretty much a beginner with losses of about $300.00 in 50-75 hrs logged in California Indian Reservations. I was thinking maybe a 3-6 or possibly a 4-8 But if there is anything lower..I would be open to that also. I have read a couple of books and been practicing lately and feel that my game is getting stronger, (Last couple of sessions I came home a small winner) So I am hoping someone can point me in the direction of a good low limit game in Vegas. Also, I was wondering how many of the Big Casinos use shills in games?
Chris,
go to the mirage and bellagio. the games will be good but maybe not as good as some smaller cardrooms but you will get to see some of the best and get to play in spots you can learn something if your money holds out. the air will be the best in l.v. if thats a concern to you. if you have read our books you should be ready for them. play extra tight then play even tighter to start. if you are losing you probably play too loose in calling raises.
Chris
As a low-limit visitor to lv I would pick out the 1488 game at Bellagio, with its $1and$2 blinds as best beginner game.The blinds are actually less than the 3/6 game, usually full of tourists like ourselves, and beatable from the get-go. Best of luck, Gary
Where can a guy get some action in Minnesota??!
Canterbury Downs is going to open a card room at some point in the near future. Until then, there is no public poker in Minnesota.
What about private games?
I've heard several references to the term "kill pot". Would someone mind filling me in? Much thanks.
When a kill pot is in effect, the stakes are increased while the hold'em blinds remain at their normal size. Stud antes may or may not be increased. Community card games put a kill condition in effect in one of two ways. First and most popular is a winner (scoop high and low in Omaha-8) of two consecutive pots. The winner must post an additional blind (unless already in a natural blind position) equal to the small bet at the kill stakes, and will have the option to check or raise (unless already raised by someone else) either in position, or last after the big blind regardless of position. Second and more preferable is a single winner of the main pot or any side pot (someone all in) that meets or exceeds a predetermined amount (generally around ten big bets for a full table). Again that winner must post a kill blind as in the first option. Stud-8 may require a scoop high and low in addition to the predetermined amount. High only stud is usually handled by the two wins in a row method.
Example: 5-10 Hold'em with a full kill at 100. Player A is all in for a small main pot. Players B and C contest the side pot which is over 100. Player B does not split the side pot with player C. Player B happens to be the natural small blind for the next hand. Player B posts 10 in the small blind position, and the player in the big blind posts the natural 5. Stakes are now 10-20 for this hand.
Example: 2-20 spread limit H/L Stud 8-better with a half kill. Player A wins both high and low. Next hand the bring-in is increased from 2 to 3. Stakes are now 3-30 spread limit for this hand.
There are many variations and rules to handle special conditions, but the main concept is that some trigger is applied to temporarily increase the stakes for one or more subsequent hands.
a kill pot is one in which a participant is murdered at the table. the famous wild bill hichcock hand of aces and eights is an example. if you are worried so much i suggest you dont play any hand in holdem with an ace or an eight in it. ask david to make you a new starting hand table to reflect the changes. kill pots were also discussed in the archives but i didnt read them as i dont like any kind of violence.
"Kill Pots" are the mushrooms I prepare in the cellar for anyone who "Deadbeats" me in my own house. Mushroom of choice "Death Angel" Amanita virosa, after being "Deadbeated" I offer he/she a lovely salad laced with the "Death Angel" and prepared earlier before arrival of guests for their palate. My final words ENJOY!!!!
morels(morchella's), shaggy manes(coprinus comatus) and chanterelles are my real life favorites i get out of the woods. i always am careful when picking wild mushrooms and prepare some for a friend and then call the next day. if he answers the phone i then have a nice dinner myself.
http://www.ultranet.com/~griner/BMC/
There's a website for you if you have any questions about mushrooms, another club I belong to. Boston Mycological Club. It's a fun club you go on forays gathering mushrooms and identify them after. It's walking through the woods with strangers who you meet. Just like a card table where you gather greens.
Paul
I am a relatively good card counter playing a green chip blackjack game at casinos in the midwest, vegas, and reno. Since it is getting more and more difficult to find good games (expecially in Vegas) I would like to switch to Holdem poker. I would like to know if any other players are doing this and what are the results. I am willing to practice, read, and learn at a highly intense level. I hae a good bankroll and lots of time. Any good information or experiences would be helpful. Thanks in advance.
LAMentary
Unless you are in Las Vegas, Arizona, California, Atlantic City, Mississippi, or the state of Conn., I would not waste my time, nor money. You need a GOOD ROOM nearby, to make money. However, if you simply must abandon blackjack, then visit a gambler's bookstore, buy some books, and play as frequently as you can. Maintain a lot of notes. Get yourself some poker playing software, but actual game experience is how you learn. Visit some poker rooms and look around, you may not like the environment, nor conditions, underwhich you must play.
Be forewarned that the casino industry is greedy. You have discovered that, with your experiences, with rules changes in blackjack. You say that good games are getting scarce. In a way, the same thing is applicable to poker. The casinos DO NOT WANT poker players EARNING A LIVING, on the casino's property. The greedy casinos are involved in a scheme to try to elimnate ring games, with the proliferation of so-called tournaments. What the casinos are doing with poker rooms, is the equivalent of what they have done with blackjack. They are changing the rules, to favor themselves--so they can get ALL THE MONEY. The day may come, when poker rooms will be closed, except for tournaments. Tournaments are hurting the ring games. I don't understand why persons, who post here, have not voiced concern over casino management's swipes at ring games.
Dave,
I happen to live in Des Plaines Il. (1week a month) and Phoenix, Arizona I play alot of poker mostly in Arizona, Cal Vegas and Ill-Ind - I find except for the Major tournaments like the WSOP or TOC when the event over shadows the entire casino - most casinos hold tournaments during times when it is slow anyway - mostly mornings from 11am - Casinos will do what is most profitable and I just don't think tournaments are as profitable as ring games.
Yeah don't get me wrong they are greedy. Tournaments are a way for them to optomize their profit in otherwise slow time.
PS Have you ever tried the Aurora boat - I find the card room there tiny but the 5-10 there is the softest low limit I have ever found.
Dave - First of all I like your posting name. I have found that by using "Dick in Phoenix," if anyone is coming to Phoenix, they know whom to look up. (I hate that particular correct grammar: make that "they know to look me up.") PS If you are an "Illini" then you should know that I an a "Wolverine." But enough about that. Our perfect season destroyed by, of all things, those Spartans.
I guess I disagree. Somewhere, in CP or PD, 2+2, or RGP, recently, someone calculated that a 24-7 poker table generated something like $1,000,000 per year drop (someone out there help me with the amount).
Here in Arizona, it seems that the tournaments appear in times when it helps to attract business during slow times, and there is often either a house contribution or a house guarantee of prize fund. I play at Gila River and Casino Arizona, and I see no casino problems with running the ring games. I guess it varies with the particular casino.
Dick the Wolverine
Hi Lamentary,
I played the usual poker games as a kid, then I studied BJ very carefully more than 25 years ago when I lived in Geneva Switz. where I worked at CERN [from a weather-beaten "Beat the Dealer"] and played a lot at Divonne France (over the border) and later in other places. They were already using 6 decks but very very easy to beat. I won 95% of the time (I mean I left the casino up 95% of the time).
I found it harder to do this after a while, the casinos were harder, the hourly pay of the BJ was too low (I have run a series of software companies) and I found it boring.
I love poker. It is easier in a way than BJ. Lot's of breaks, more fun to kibitz. If you can beat BJ, you can beat poker:
1. Get the HE for Advanced Players by our 2+2 heroes. Wonderful book. 2. Get the Turbo Texas HE program. Use it. Study it. It is great. 3. Play by the book, the way you would play BJ; but of course bluffing is another story. You must bluff most games. You must learn to call bluffs.
Play tight. Play agressively. Play tough. You will win. You will enjoy it too.
Mark
Hi!
I started playing poker seriously after I got the boot from my local store in Blackjack. If you have the patience and discipline to win at BJ, you can win at poker. The good news is it's more profitable! ev/sd is potentially at least double that of BJ. The bad news is you have no assurance you are hitting that ev until you get several hundred hours in. In BJ, at least for me, I sweated the losing streaks a lot less because I was stone cold sure I knew my edge to 2 decimal places. In poker, you have to doubt yourself a little more, all the time, methinks.
Best Wishes,
Zooey
(My first 104 hours:
EV: +.6 +- 1.6 Big Bets/hour,
SD: 17 BB/hr)
Looking for players to get good game in Jacksonville Florida. Have great location. Email racerx@evscc.com or call 904-631-3467
I picked up "reading people" By Jo-Ellan Dimitrius (the gal who picked the O.J. jury. It is an interesting insight into how an expert reads people and I picked some good pointers that have helped me at the poker table.
And how might someone go about securing a copy of this book?
Richard, you can go to amazon.com they have it for $11.16 and order it or any good bookstore should still have it - probably at a discount by now.
I am going to be in Vegas the beginning of November. I was wondering what casino(s) has the best 10-20 Hold'em games. I also am looking to play a little stud and omaha in this range. The last time I played in Vegas was at the World Series and the side games were excellent. All information will be appreciated.
Dice
I would avoid he 10-20 in Vegas. The Mirage has a 10-20, but the 15-30 at Bellagio is a lot better. The Orleans might have a 10-20, but I have never played it. If 15-30 is too big I would reccomend 8-16 at the Bellagio over the Mirage 10-20.
Randy Refeld
I happen to like Binions - I know it is not the newest in town but I have found some real good 10-20 games there on a Friday nights (since I usually go up for weekends I wouldn't know about weekdays). I also like the lower level Saturday morning game with the regular old timers - I consider this a learning session and love to hear the stories (and lies) these old dogs like to tell. Have fun.
Binion's is very smokey, so i don't play there. I am guessing the gaems are relatively soft, but I also think there isn't much money to be won there. I ahve heard of some people beating them pretty heavy, but I want to play poker with people that have a lot of money to lose.
Randy - I found the Friday and Saturday night games are loaded with tourists and never saw a lack of chips on the table. Saturday morning is a different story.
I prefer a smoke free too room but don't let it be my deciding factor - action it much more important than comfort.
O might go take a look tonight (Sat night); someone told me they were down there last night and there was a lot of action. I just know that there are a lot of "min buy-in players" at Binion's and I have no desire to let someone shoot their $100 at my $500 or $1000. Thanks for the info
Randy
Randy, I can recall 5 players including myself at the table and 4 or 5 "tourists" rolling through losing a few buyins and going back to what ever they were playing. One kid did sit down and got 2 $500 racks on credit - he looked like a homeless bum dirty and smelly but everyone know him and he proceeded to lose 2 grand inside of an hour. I never saw anything like it, this kid played every hand and just seemed like he wanted to lose the money and go somewhere else. I did win the biggest hand in a structured game I have ever won that night - just under $1300 with quad duces.
Great night and great action at Binions
You mentioned that mid-limit side games are significantly better during major tournaments. Pot-limit games are also frequently spread at those tournaments. Are those mid-limit games more profitable than pot-limit side games of similar size, or do you just prefer limit (and avoid PL)? Are those pot-limit games worth playing? I'm referring to games with 5-5 or 5-10 blinds, not the very largest games.
I don't play the pot limit games simply because I have played very little pot limit.
My understanding is that the quality of the pot limit games vary a lot. It depends on the tournament and the particular night. Sometimes they are very good and sometimes they are not.
I'm interested in hearing opinions on Colorado poker rooms.
I sometimes play and want to hear which rooms people like/hate and why.
Only played in blackhawk (bullwhackers). Not bad. The problem with colorado is the location (one hour in the mountains, which is worse in bad weather) and the $5 max. Lets let the indians open up something a little closer to civilization.
The easiest room to play in is Harveys but it's only full on the weekend. The other rooms are tougher and/or too wild. Bullwackers is second best and the Lodge a close third IMHO...after playing the rooms for five years.
Hi all- Will be heading to Reno on Thursday October 21 for 9 days at the Peppermill for their fall tourney. I just love these long getaways. It is such a break compared to the hectic pace of my "normal life". I don't have to be a wife or a mother the entire time.....someone makes my bed and cooks my food + 16-18 hours of poker a day. *Life is good*
Will do a trip report when I return to continue my pattern of boring all with my adventures. Last trip in March was very profitable, so I am optimistic of good things happening. I will even *try* to remember some intereting hands so I have some actual poker content to include in my trip reports for a change. Lord knows I play more hands than anyone else...ask anyone who has run into me on a cetifiable rush.
If anyone else will be there, stop by and say Howdy. Ask anyone on floor to point out "Diane from Green Bay". I have been there many times and most all know me.
Regards, Diane
Diane have a great trip - I'd a thunk you'd want to get your break in Jan or Feb seeing your in frozen tundra country.
I can remember salmon 1070's fishing trips I have taken from suburban Chicago to Door County and we had to wipe the frost off the boats in early "September". Burrrrr cold.
Rounder- It isn't that bad. Today was 65 and sunny, nice crisp fall colors.
But you are correct in that I make MORE trips in winter than I do during the few nice weather months we get here in WI.
Diane
Any word on when Discovery will air the show featuring you at the TOC.
I last spoke to the production crew two weeks ago and they were in the editing process and said all was going along well and according to schedule.
Best they can tell me at this point is that it will air sometime after the first of the year, when the "American Journey" series begins.
Thanks for asking. I will be sure to alert all by a posting on this forum, once I know the firm timetable.
Regards, Diane
I read in a previous post that you play some in Arizona. I vacation with family in Scottsdale occasionally and I was wondering what places nearby might have some good entry level Hold'em or 7CS tables. Keep in mind -- small bankroll and little experience. Much thanks.
Casino Arizona has a nice establishment on Indian Bend and the 101 freeway in Scottsdale. They spread 1-3 on up 7CS and 3-6 on up hold'em. If you come out here I think you'll be impressed with the quality of the games and service loads of slots too if your into that thing - I'm not but I know some are.
Thanks a lot Rounder.
Quick question for you, though -- what kind of bankroll should I consider working with for a 3-5 hour session at those kinds of tables?
The place sounds perfect. I just found out we will be heading down in March. It'll be my first big test after a winter of study and practice :-)
Jon you sound like a beginning player - if I'm correct.
Really it depends on how you like to play, if you play alot of hands or just the good ones - I would recomment buying in for a rack in any of the low limit games. I think a BR of $200 should keep you in chips for a 3-5 hour session but that can go in 45 min if you aren't careful.
Let me know when you come out - I'd like to play hold'em with a fellow 2+2 guy.
I am a new player, and it is an honor to be called a "fellow 2+2 guy". I'll let you know when I head out to AZ. I believe it will be mid-March.
Thanks for all your help.
Jon,
if you are a beginner we will all come down and play with you to of course help you out.
Hey Ray I axed him 1st!!!
I really appreciate the attention that everybody is showing me -- imagine being tutored at the table by Ray Zee! Wow! The selflessness that you guys show. I am one lucky guy ;)
I hope that by the time I feel ready for the casino tables I will be able to beat away MOST of the circling sharks with fundamentally sound (though inexperienced) play.
Expensive in person.
naw, im a pussy cat
Don't pussy cats have retractable (i.e. hidden) sharp claws?
Dick
Dick, who needs you to blow my cover:-)
I think that should be your nickname. Ray "Pussycat" Zee. Is it meow or ROAR!!! I don't know if I want to be around a cat that can make a bear run for cover.
Hey, Ray, I'll join in a little friendly game.
Seriously, Jon, snag my e-mail address up there and let me know when you are coming, and we can get together. I am currently playing hold'em at 3-6 and 4-8 levels and would be glad to play with you.
Since you are going to be in Scottsdale, Casino Arizona is your best choice. If you feel like touring a little more, Fort McDowell and Gila River are also fine places to play the low limit games. I play a lot at Gila River because it is very near my job.
Dick
x
Jon - I look forward to seeing you. Just don't forget, we are coming perilously close to one of the criteria of a "too tough" game (this is from a post from Ray Zee, I think ... or was it Mason?)
The game is too tough if ...
there are more than three 2+2 posters in it.
Just to digress, there was an article in either CP or PD a while ago which was a "top ten" list of tough games. Most of them were forgettable, but my favorite was:
The game is too tough if ...
You haven't been introduced, but everyone knows your name.
Honestly, Jon, we all ... I mean, I ... look forward to playing with you.
Dick
I was sitting at a 6-12 game and this young guy sitting on my right kept caling me Big Money while talking to me. I tole him my name and asked him why he was calling me that he said he thought it was my Nick name I said I never heard of it and he said his friends call me that and refer to me as "Big Money" because I always have a huge stack of chips in front of me. Phew I don't want that reputation it might mean I will run out of callers - my worst nightmare NO CALLERS.
I'm ready to get my feet wet in 15-30 holdem. So I was wondering which one of the L.A. casinos would you recommend, and during which hours? I usually play from about 1:00am thru 7:00 am.
Thanks for any help,
Recently I got an e-mail that stated that I must be a whiz at HTML. Actually I know very little about HTML. Here is how I am able to utilize HTML in my posts. If you have Word 97 (I don't know about other versions) you can write your post in a normal Word 97 document, save the document as HTML, select view from the menu bar, select view HTML source, copy the HTML code into the clipboard, and paste it into your response.
wow you must be a whiz at html. thats six steps and i puke out at three.
No Ray I'm just a whiz at clicking mouse buttons and selecting menu items.
On this website there is a "Preview Message" button as well as a "Post Message" button.
As far as I know this is so you can test your HTML out.
:-)
You can also use your browser's page editor. I posted the following (late) to the thread below started by John Feeney: http://www.twoplustwo.com/cgi-bin/exchange.pl?read=3476 Using the page editor, you can do things like hyperlinks and images from anywhere on the web, that are not easy from MSWord.
Be sure to also read the follow-up post by me, as I reduce the number of steps from the first one. Ray, is that good?
What would you guys recommend regarding poker magazine subscriptions? I think I might want one, but I don't want to pay through the nose.
Visit your local casino they are free there - that is where I get mine.
If you can only afford one......I would subscribe to Cardplayer. I have the bulk rate, which I think is about $50.
I actually get both Cardplayer and Poker Digest by subscription because here in WI, there is no local cardroom for me to visit.
Check cardrooms in your area, most have free copies of both so you don't need a paid subscription. If you are stuck in a poker wasteland like I am, then you need one or both as poker aides.
Diane
Card Player is the best. Poker Digest is pretty weak but we can hope it will get better. Many of the PD articles are retreads (even some beyond those that are noted as such).
What do you recommend for free poker on the web? I've tried GPKR, but my computer has a problem downloading the new version of the software. Are there other IRC rooms that are worthwhile?
funcom.com isn't bad.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Try one of the advertisers of this site, ParadisePoker. While they are still getting their money play site up and running, they have had their free poker page going for a month now. Not only does it get a good amount of traffic but it also offers Stud and Omaha as well as HE.
Some of the players can be just like those at Yahoo, but you will find some more of the serious type.
Played for the first time the other night at Turning Stone Casino in upstate NY. The collection was $5. per half hr. (10-20 HE). Is this a normal rake? I sat down and played one hand and then it was collection time.
sounds like a reasonable rake. if it's collected right after you sit down, remember to leave right before it's collected around the time you plan on leaving. question for you: i'll be there this friday night. how's is the action? compare to foxwoods/mohegan sun or taj/trop. thanks in advance.
I was there last Thurs. Played from 5:30pm-10:00pm. This was the first time that I ever played Poker in a Casino. It was also the first time that I ever played HE. (I'm getting tired of losing at the crap table) I just finished reading the book and decided to play only the hands in the first 3 groups. Bought in for $500.(10-20) and wound up losing $46. What surprised me the most was that there wasn't that much pre-flop raising. Looking back I wished that I had stole some of the blinds. The room seemed very disorganized. Players were sitting down with cash and buying checks from other players.(I thought you had to buy checks from the dealer or the cage) The dealers seemed very nervous and inexperienced. By 6:30 all of the tables were full. The HE 10-20 and the 15-30 were full all night. The 30-60 game was 4-5 handed. On the plus side they give you a buffet and a room for $50. a night, Mon-Thurs. I live about an hour and a half away. I didn't get a room that night but maybe in the future. This was also the first time that I played any king of Poker in 20 years. (I was pretty good table stakes player back then in home games-stud and draw) I read a couple of books on HE and realize that it is much different than stud and draw.(in the games that I used to play in there wasn't much of an ante--I would just play the nuts) Is it possible for me to win playing hands in the first three groups? I'm thinking about maybe playing hands in group 4 in late position next time I play. Good luck on Fri. Get there early, the place will be packed.
I got invited to the Bahama Princess for mid-November. While I am going for free and not complaining it looks like there is no poker room there. I gathered this from searching the internet and was planning on calling to verify. If this is not true or if anyone can suggest somewhere close by in Freeport where I can play poker please let me know. Thanks.
Jeremy
Greetings:
I'm thinking about making a run out to Reno for a few days, haven't really been there before, and I'm wondering if it's worth it, and if so, where. I'll only be playing 1-5 stud, maybe 5-10. Which places will comp? Thanks for the Info,
Joe
Can you tell me where the best places to play are in Chicago?
"Best places to play in Chicago"
That's almost a misnomer - kind of like the idea of "Table Selection" once you get there. Anyways....
Hollywood Casino in Aurora: 1-5 7s, 5-10HE, 10-20HE
Empress in Joliet: (i've heard) 1-5 7s, 3-6HE, 10-20HE
Harrah's Showboat in E. Chicago, IN: 1-5 & 2-10 7s, 3-6-12 HE/OH, 10-20HE
I'm sure others will have more places/info..
Michael
Be the flop... See the flop... You're not being the flop, Danny.
FYI -
all the rakes in the area are $5. Some places take a jackpot for a total of $6. Rooms can be very crowded. Harrah's EAst Chicago has variety of games - 1-5, 2-10, 10-20 ,15-30 up to 30-60 stud, 4-8 and sometimes 10-20 O8, and 3-6-12, 10-20, and 20-40 HE. I think it's the only room with stud bigger than 2-10 ever. (Guess HE plays faster and they want the most pots to rake).
Harrah's, East Chicago, Indiana limits to 20/40 HE daily. Up to 30/60 Stud, weekends Empress, Hammond Indiana variety of lower limit games They are the closest poker rooms to downtown Chicago, Illinois.
I am looking for Hold-em conditions in Laughlin, NV. I generally go to Vegas to play poker, but have a chance to visit Laughlin. Any information about hotels, crowds, limits, player strength, rakes, etc. would be greatly appreciated.
thankx
LAmentary
There is not much poker in Laughlin - One card room at the River Boat, all the times I have been there I have only seen it active a couple of times. It's been 2 years but I don't think it is a poker mecca.
I am interested in buying a used version of Turbo 7 card stud by Wilson software. I would need the complete package including the manual.
Walter whutch@aristotle.net
Dont be afraid to spend the $89.95 for a new program.It's worth every penny.
Like many of you out there, I just love watching the WSOP reruns on ESPN/ESPN2.... but, it has been a while!!!
Does anyone know when tournaments from previous years will be aired? (one time, somebody posted a schedule for the month....!!!)
Thanks in advance for your responses...
David
David I checked with Binions gift shop and they will have the '99 tape in Nov. - About the espn I heard it will air in Nov also. That's all I have hope someone has more info.
Check RGP out also, there's a gentlemen who regularly posts weekly TV schedules with gambling-themed shows, movies, etc.
He has a website also- forget his name off top of my head.
I play 15-30.and 20-40 sven card stud. I go for straights only when my first three cars are 9-10-J or 10,J.Q. and sometimes 8,9,10. However I dont seem to make that many and Im pretty sure Im losing money trying to make these hands. Would I be wise to never go for straights at all? thanks tony.
Tony:
Repost this on our Poker Forum and you should get better response.
I just wanted to know who of the regular posters regularly plays 7CS? What are you reading besides 7CSFAP?
I'm becoming a stud player, because that's the big game here in the NE (Foxwoods). However, I'm not aware of any good books on stud other than 7CSFAP.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I've been playing 7-stud in casinos since 1979. The first decent information on stud was published in Super/System. The McEvoy/Johnson/Stern book on stud ("Championship Stud", 1998) does contains some interesting ideas not published elsewhere. Both of the preceding books contrast somewhat with the advice in 7CSFAP, which is more complete and precise in its handling of specific situations. However, not every tactic will work as well for one player as it will for another -- you have to taper your knowledge to your style and temperment. As in any subject where you deign to become an expert, it is best to consider all ideas. Most importantly, reading these books show you how other good players think. There are many books that I've not mentioned, simply because they are either grossly accurate, not written by skilled players, written for low-limit games, or only vaguely discuss stud (most tournament books have sections on stud). Finally, I suspect that many of the best stud players refined many of their plays at the tourney tables, not only because it costs less to "experiment" with the funny money than it would in a cash game, but because you are faced with more of an array of skilled players.
Jon,
Here's a list of what I have read and will reread even though there not all 7CS they still teach you how to think in poker situations. I don't go by the theory that you can't win in LL games reading these books, as Earl says you have to adapt to win. Experience is still the KEY to developing a game that works for you. The advice that you get from this forum you can trust otherwise there would be 10 people attacking something that isn't right. Well good luck Jon and read as much as you have time for and then reread again. I don't know about computer games.
Paul
Gambling for a Living by David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth Gambling Theory and Other Topics by Mason Malmuth Getting the Best of It by David Sklansky High-Low Split Poker, Seven Card Stud and Omaha Eight or Better for Advanced Players by Ray Zee Hold'em Poker by David Sklansky Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players by David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth Poker, Gaming, & Life by David Sklansky Seven Card Stud for Advanced Players by David Sklansky, Mason Malmuth, and Ray Zee Sklansky on Poker by David Sklansky Sklansky Talks Blackjack by David Sklansky Theory of Poker by David Sklansky Winning Concepts in Draw and Lowball by Mason Malmuth
Thanks gentlemen,
I am currently outlining 7CSFAP (a law school habit). I have read Theory of Poker and Hold'em Poker by Sklansky. Winning Concepts in Draw and Lowball is supposedly on its way -- Amazon is taking forever.
I appreciate all the help I have been getting. Actual games are too few and far between, but I want to eventually post some plays so I can get some feedback.
Make sure that you are reading the 21st Century Edition of SCSFAP. I've noticed that a few of the old version are still in some of the major book stores. The new version has the words "21st Century Edition" on the cover.
Mason,
Thank you. I do in fact have the 21st Cent. ed.; some quick questions:
1. What are the key changes in the editions?
2. Where does 2 + 2 provide an analysis of Razz?
Thanks.
The key changes are throughout the whole text.
The discussion of Razz appears in the book SKLANSKY ON POKER. (It contains SKLANSKY ON RAZZ.)
I am playing a lot of stud again ... in my moves up the limits, I felt compelled to skip the 3-6 stud game as spread in Arizona - when it had a rake+jackpot+tip of up to $5 per pot and a $.50 ante per hand. But now, Casino Arizona has removed the ante from its 3-6 stud game, and at Gila River, where I usually play, the $6-12 stud game is now within my bankroll, and it is the best, liveliest game in the house. (Still up to $5 total rake etc., ante $1, bring-in $2, with LOTS of 12-24 kill pots played.)
I am surprised no one has mentioned Roy West's book, 42 Lessons ... (I forget the exact title). He preaches a tight solid disciplined game, no bluffing. A good start for a beginner! Then you need to read 7CSFAP to get more sophisticated. Roy freely admits that his book is for lower and mid limits, up to 5-10 he says.
It's not directly for 7CS, but my favorite book for re-reading is Theory of Poker. I don't mean to slight it and the other 2+2 books by this post.
Dick
The title of Roy's book is 7-CARD STUD:42 LESSONS (The complete course in winning)Definitely worth the 25 bucks.
I've just recently been getting serious about Hold Em. Which book(s) would you recommend for strategy/theory? I dont' want a book that spends 1/2 the time explaining the rules. I'm interested in the math and odds and situational analysis.
HE poker for advanced players, available at this website, is the best there is. Other books teach useful information, but none is as thorough or as accurate.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
P.S. - That should complete any suckup quota for the month, right?
FossilMan definitely knows what he is talking about.
However, I found Sklansky's Hold'em Poker to be a nice warm-up. It has great tables and charts as to the playability of hands, and the pre-flop strategy section was very helpful. It was concise and well-organized. I learned a lot.
Dont forget THEORY OF POKER.
Hello everyone, I think ive finally found a great poker room online. Its kinda new, its called "Dragon Poker Inn". I played on there for awhile at the 5/10 level and had some success winning about $130 in an hour and a half. But the thing I really liked about it was that they did not have service charges for credit cards, something that infuriated me about Planet Poker. That and that for every 20 hours you play there, you have an option for either $25 cash bonus or a free $100 buy-in to thier twice a month tournaments, and I believe the prize for the tourneys is $1000. Anways, you might want to check them out, the websight is WWW.DRAGONPOKERINN.COM Just thought Id give you all some heads up about it, seemed very friendly there. Only thing is, is since its new, they are still somewhat skimpy on players, but its growing, so hopefully they will have a pretty good base soon.
Hope to see you there!, Wolverine
It looks like a mickey mouse site. I would stick with Planet Poker and/or Paradise Poker.
In Mason's essay "Cardroom Problems III", he writes:
1. New games are started with regard to those people already playing.
"Nothing is more upsetting than to be playing in a game and have the cardroom start another game that causes your game to break, and you now find yourself frozen out. This is especially true if you just happen to be losing. The brush should always be aware of what calling down a new game will do to the current games. If it is likely to break a game that is already in progress, the best decision may be to put off calling down the new game."
I play at a cardroom where I think this this idea is adhered to a little too strictly.
As Mason said, the best decision MAY be to put off calling down the new game. Implicit in this statement seems to be that there are circumstances in which it may be best to call the game immediately as well.
1. Would anyone care to elaborate on how a shift manager should make these decisions?
2. Are there situations in which an entire table of players wants to switch to another limit, but should not be allowed to?
3. Suppose you have a 15-30 running and there is a 20-40 list comprised of 15-30 players and several people not seated. At what point should the 20-40 game be called?
4. What if there is only a 15-30 running, and there are N players not seated that want to play 20-40 short handed? What is the best way to proceed, depending on N?
Also, I believe I once read an article or two about this topic, at least one of which was by Caro (I think). Does anyone have references for articles treating this subject?
Thanks!
When he has eneough players to fill a new table and not destroy an existing game.
X
Rounder,
RGP is a newsgroup as opposed to a web based forum such as 2+2. There is a link on the left frame of this site under "favorite links" or whatever (I use a non frames version of this sight so it is not within view). I think it only works if your mail progarm is already set up for newsgroups.
All the major mail progams (MS Outlook and Outlook Express, Natscape Messanger, Eudora, and so on allow you to subscribe to newsgroups (there are about 10,000 or so). You should be able to poke around the top of the menu and find something saying SUBSCRIBE amd you will download a list to chose from. It is self explanatory from there.
By the way, the best (IMHO) pure newsgroup reader is an independent program called Forte Free Agent (or Agent if you want to shell out $30). You can find the web site using any search engine. If you have a problem email me and I will get the link to the site.
One problem with newsgroups is that sometimes messages get lost for a while (usually due to problems with your ISP). If you really get into RGP you may want to try a service called Newsguy which Abdul Jalib said is good.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Rick
tt
Rounder,
Thanks to another poster on this forum a few days ago I learned of an easy way to access newsgroups (rec.gambling.poker). Go to www.remarq.com. This site has a front end for newsgroups. Once you are there, just type the word 'poker' in the search box and the first one that will show up at the bottom of your screen will be the one you want. You can read messages without having to do anything. If you want to post a message, you will need to fill out a short registration form first.
Good luck,
Walter
I'd like to see a poker educational tape which shown actual hands under casino conditions and have a pannel of "experts" discuss the hand and strategy that went into the play.
Anyone agree that this could ba very helpful and informative.
It certainly would, provided you could get the experts to agree on anything :-).
Andy Ward http://websites.ntl.com/~ajward
Good idea ! Here's my suggested panel : Mason Malmuth, Mike Caro, Abdul Jalib, Phil Hellmuth, Vince Lepore, Gary Carson and Doug Grant. Now there's a video I'd pay some bucks for. Might have to slap an 18 certificate on it though ...
H.
x
Over a year ago Mike Caro touched on this idea during one of his Tuesday-Night sessions. He basically pointed out how tough it would be to get a nine or ten people who would be willing to participate, since you would need their permission to make the tape.
And why wouldn't they want to give their permission? Well,one of the things he pointed out is that it could be pretty embarrassing having every decision you make criticized,and possibly made to look foolish.
Players ID can be protected and the hands can be filmed for 3-4 hours and only the interesting ones picked for analysis.
I'd see one for tournaments and final table play.
The more I think about the more I like the idea - I'd invest in a project like this.
Well, if you'd be interested in investing in a project like that, maybe you wouldn't mind investing in some land I have in Peru?
I remember that session. To bad it's illegal to sell a tape like that without consent.
Hay Jake, couldn't you just film it without their permission, and then blot out their faces like they do on the news when they show somebody under the age of 18?
I don't see how LargeMarge. First of all,you couldn't shoot it without them knowing about it, like from the overhead security cameras. The quality would be too poor, plus you can only critique a hand if it's turned face up. Most second-best hands hit the muck without ever being shown. Not to mention all the times the pot is won without anybody showing a hand. So clearly the people being taped would have to be aware and willing to be taped.They would have to agree to show their hands,or possibly use a glass table with a camera underneath pointed up at the cards. And if you are going to shoot the tape in a casino setting,that means a small production crew with video cameras on tri-pods, lighting, cables all over the place--the works. You can't do this without drawing a crowd of people who the casino would prefer were sitting at their own tables generating revenue. I've seen this kind of setup at a casino in L.A., it was for some Eye on L.A. type of show. And they shot for only about 20 minutes, then split. To create an interesting tape worthy of selling, you would have to shoot for many hours,and I can't imagine a casino agreeing to that much of a disruption--particularly in the early morning hours when they need all tables going that they can get.
A wise man once said to me a "problem is as large as the sum of money it takes to fix".
Here is what I'd do - take a sample of different type of players - maniac, loose, rock and solid.
Give each of them a stack of real casino chips and let them play for them for say 3 hours. I think it sould be real poker and very much fun to analyse. The would be required to show the cameras the hole cards pre-flop if they intend to play.
Gosh it would be a fun project.
You keep glossing over one important point. How do you convince a line-up of players(particularly weaker players) to go on camera and possibly end up looking foolish? By offering them some casino chips that they may end up losing on camera? Are you going to offer all of them a guaranteed amount of money in addition to the genuine casino chips they are going to play for? Is it going to be an additional amount that they just won't be able to refuse? How much do you think you could offer these people and still make a tidy profit after production costs? You know, these type of special-interest poker tapes don't exactly sell like Hot Cakes compared to Hit Movies,or some highly advertised workout(exercize)tapes.
With the UK televised NL tourney having been successful with cameras underneath the table showing all player's hole cards, we know the technology is in place. All Los Angeles Mega cardrooms have empty tournament areas which could be used for the actual filming. As for putting together 9 or 10 well known "experts", I don't think that would be any problem at all. If I were producing the event, I would place an ad in Cardplayer and Poker Digest announcing a $50,000.00 winner take all single table free-roll tournament and give a phone number where applicants could inquire. Each player accepted would have to sign a release form and waive his or her right to any further compensation for the sale or distribution of the tape. I would be especially interested in trying to obtain the highest profile names to participate. If Hellmuth, Brunson, Chan, Sklansky, Caro, Cloutier, Reese, Ciaffone, Zee or Jalib decided to pass on this opportunity, I'm sure that others just a cut or two below would hasten to jump at it. The fun job would be reserved for Mason, editing the tape and providing running commentary on the correctness of each player's actions. Sign me up for buying a copy during the initial release!
I'd want the experts commenting on the strategy of the play any good mix of players would do and the prize could be $10 grand live casino chips playing a 10-20 game 10 players $1000 each, quit when 3 hours are up and keep what you have in front of you.
Remember most players think they are good just unlucky when they lose all the time.
John, 50 grand is a pretty tall order, not to mention the cost for making a good quality video. By the way, how many experts doing the evaluation of the action would it take to make the video interesting enough to purchase--three, four, five? Lets say three minimum, just for example. Well, don't you think these three experts are going to want to be compensated for their time? I mean, why should only the players have the opportunity to receive cash, but not the people who are providing the most important part of the tape--the evaluation. That's the whole purpose of the tape isn't it, to learn things you never would have realized if not for their insightful observations? So how much are you going to offer them?
Here is another question. How much do you think Mr. Sklanski or The Mad Genius pay to have their seminars taped? I was at both of their last seminars at Hollywood Park Casino, and all they did was set up one camera in the center of the room. They didn't have to fork-over 50 Thousand dollars, in addition to their prduction costs, to audience members who asked questions, or in advanced fees to guest speakers. And this is how,(with a minimal cost in production)they are able to recoupe their investment to earn a profit. I said it before, and I'll say it again, these types of special-interest tapes don't sell anywhere near what a highly advertised movie, or highly advertised fitness tape can.
It is common for people,who are more creative than business minded, to come up with ideas that they are sure will make money. But when it comes time to putting pecil to paper,and adding up expected profits, the figures rarely pan out.
Sincerely, Big D
I agree with most of your points. The tape would need to be televised and there would need to be sponsors to defray the prize money costs. The part of the problem that was easy to solve was getting top names to participate. If someone wanted to ramrod it through, I'm pretty sure that a card manufacturing company, The King of Beers, the host casino and auxiliary tie-ins could be made to partially or wholly offset the costs. It would probably be a lot easier than getting the TOC off the ground. With the right advertising and someone to draw an audience, it might do more to stimulate the growth of poker than some other things that have been tried.
Since no one wants to tell how they actually play. You should deal out the hands and the flop and write a script as to how each person should play their hand and then have the experts analyze the round. Only my suggestion.
How many players is a 7CS table at most casinos designed to accomodate? How many players would need to be missing to constitute a "short-handed" game?
8 per table. To me short handed would be 5 or less.(maybe 6 or less)
Really, the important definition of shorthanded is when the casino starts taking half-rakes. Sometimes is 5, usually must be 4 or less.
I would like your opinion on the following: I will be heading to Vegas in November and I am wondering if I should stick with tournaments or ring games. I know they will be having the Sam Boyd Tournament during my stay. I was just wondering would it be more beneficial to concentrate on the tournamnent scene, ring game scene or a little bit of both. I will only be there a few days and I want to maximize my playing time and my wins. I am a much better ring game player than tournament player. But I have played in 6 tournaments this year and placed in 5 of them. So any advice that is helpful I would appreciate it.
Thanks,
Dice
Dice you have a huge over lay in the tournaments and the chance of winning alot of money for a few hours work is there. I'm thinking of flying up for the tournament - if I do go I'll play in the Nov 5 & 6th and/or the 13th as vegas is only $60 45 min from Phoenix.
This was posted a few weeks ago, and was never answered. So, I just figured I'd repost and hope that someone responds. What is the story on NYC poker rooms? I've seen them in Rounders, but that's about it. Can someone tell me about where these are, how one gains membership, what the stakes are, any other information.
thanks a lot, tired of the Parkway
I hate the commute, and the TAJ for that matter.
I'm interested in local (mahattan or all of NYC) low limit hold em games.
Can email if you prefere.
Shooter, I lost your email address, email me if you can. thanks
There are 2 cardrooms in NY that I am aware of, Mayfair Club and Diamond Club. In both cases, you need a referral from an existing member (I believe). I would look them up in the phone book and call and ask them about it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
How many good players are there in the 10-20 and 20-40 hold'em games in Atlantic City? Would a good player be able to average the normal one BB per hour or are there too many pros and serious recreational players to make the games profitable enough? I know that the lower limits have a lot of tourists and poor players and i'm wondering if its the same for the mid limits. Thanks for any responses
I am goig to Vienna next week and I know that there are now three or four cardrooms there. Can anyone tell me which is the best place to play and what games they spread.
Thank you, Dominic.
Dominic,
Try Poker World which is fairly new and large. My friend Lou Krieger wrote about it in Card Player several months ago (he was the guest of honor at their inagural poker tournament). He also posted the articles on RGP in three parts. Try a Power Search on www.deja.com. If you have any problems email me and I should be able to track the thread and provide you with a URL.
Regards,
Rick
Dominic,
Using www.deja.com, the article is spread among so many segments that I would need to provide multiple URLs and my browser is soooo slooow. Go to power search, enter rec.gambling.poker in the newsgroup box, enter loukrieger@aol.com in the author box, and enter Poker World in the keyword search. You will find it. I just did.
Regards Again,
Rick
go to the concord casino 011-43-1-7490136 or Pokerworld 011-43-1-7969933. the other 2 casinos hardly have any games. At the Pokerworld they play $3-6 and $5-10 holdem and stud.at the concord casino they also play $ 10-20. Both places have a lot of tournaments where they also play PLO after it is over. The Concord casino had a big stud game for a long time(last month 120-240),but at the moment it is quiet. Just call them when you are there. lots of bad players, but they rake every pot $5-6. Good Luck. Vienna is a nice city to visit,but only good for poker if you play the big stud game and can stand the swings.
I was sent a poker-related email from someone on the forum, however I lost it before I had a chance to read it. It obviously couldn't have been someone attempting to ascertain my feelings on a given poker strategy. Feel free to resend it or post it here.
like several other people, i am looking for a nyc poker game. a club would be great. i hear that the diamond club is the better one. could someone help me get in?. there is an extra catch, though. i am only 18. i have a fake id, but it is a mediocre $65 one. it looks almost ok, but nothing like the state it says it's from. it works real well at bars and liquor stores where they just need an excuse to sell to you. but i am not sure about poker clubs. please, help me. since, i got here i have only been playing about 2-3 hours a week in a 5 handed $.50/$1 game with other students. please, help me find a game.
scott
that's a lousy way to ask someone to vouch for you at a private club and the diamond club plays a lot higher than your limit
i am sorry for a breach of etiquite. i have to plead ignorance. i want to play higher limits, up to 10-20.
scott
i don't know any members, but your best bet is probably to call and tell them your situation. i called once and was told to call back and ask for john, but i didn't pursue it because i was leaving town for college soon after that. the nuber is 212-727-1956(i got it from pokersearch.com). it's located at 132 W.20th st. and holdem starts at 4-8 up to 10-20. good luck. by the way, don't bring your age up and they might not even inquire about it.
x
How do you handle "buddies" in the game? Persons who ride together to the game, play in the same game, and leave together. I am currently encountering four sets of these persons (one set here, one set there), at various times during the week. The Holdem games are all above 10/20. For some reason, I have been avoiding games where these "sets" of persons are playing; no particular reason, just uneasiness.
Avoid them if you tink they are palying "together".
If you do report them to the floor and they can watch them for possible cheating.
I do not let that deter me from playing. The fact that these buddies are not trying to keep secret their affiliation with one another would make me less suspicious. Related to this situation is that of husband and wife at the same table. I do not less this deter me from playing.
When I play, I usually ride with a buddy from work. We play at the same table, since there is no choice if we want to play the same game an limit. We do not collude.
Of course you should watch how everyone plays, and look out for collusion.
I have made many friends playing poker and frequently chat with them during the game. I also have a poker traveling companion who goes with me some times and frequently plays in the same limits. When there aren't that many games to choose from, we occasionally end up at the same table. Just because we are friends, I suspect some are at least aware of the possibility of collusion.
However, that is NOT the case. Matter of fact, we probably play each other harder than we do the other players because we have a better idea of the other person's "style" of play. What I do to avoid the specter of collusion is to frequently show down the hand I have when I lose, so others in the game, can see that I have a strong hand against her. Not sure if it ever completely dispells the concern on collusion, but since I am aware of it, I try to overcome it by high integrity play and showing cards. I end up giving away more info on my playing style that I would like, but it is worth it to have a friend to travel with. Whenever possible we do try to transfer tables away from each other, but that always isn't an option.
At the recent Peppermill Tournament, we even had the tournament staff switch our table assignments so we didn't end up playing at the same table. It just wasn't worth the implied concern from other players who know that Diane and Karen travel together on tournament trips. When we are at the tables together we fight each other strongly for the pot and then joke and remain friends. And yes, that includes check raising at every opportunity. We do split/chop blinds if next to each other, but so do 90%+ of the other players.
Diane
From Nov 6-Nov 13 Adelaide Casino are holding the Australian Poker Championships..draw,7 stud,Omaha,hold'em all are $275 BI but there will be a $1050 NL HE and Australia's first $10,000 BI, hold'em (NL). I publish Australia's ONLY poker magazine "CARDS" every 8 weeks with all the news from Australia and New Zealand. Please e-mail me if you're coming down under. Dazzler.
Darryl,
At some stage I would love to go to Australia and play some poker, unfortunately that week clashes with one of the best weeks poker in Europe - The Master Classic in Amsterdam. Just for my future reference what type of poker is most commonly played in Australia and what size games do most of the casinos spread.
There are SIX major tournaments a year in Australia/New Zealand. Games normally draw,Manila,7 stud hold'em and Omaha (hi) games from $10-$20, $25-$50 up to $150-300. Half pot hold'em.NL HE,full pot Omaha. $10 and $20K freezeouts (heads-up). $10K buyin 7 stud, full pot. $25 ante and $100 ante(subject to players). If you would lie a copy of my CARDS Poker Magazine (+40 pages) please e-mail YOUR postal address and I'll post (mail) YOU a copy! Dazzler(that goes for any other USA/Europeon readers also)
Dazzy - been a few years since my last visit to Oz - what is the US$ Aus$ conversion these days.
Cheers
Rounder...do you do anything else in life, or do you spend all day on 2+2? USA65c = AUD$1.00. Mason has told me off for not posting theory and strategy on that forum. So here I am in the back seat.There are currently BIGGER games in Melbourne NOW than in Las Vegas. $100 ante 7 stud (PL) Omaha $25 ante, no blind full pot($20K BI) , $10K and $20K freeze outs (headsup). Plenty of action all over Aust/NZ for poker vacations.I'm busting to have so bad beat to put onto the "Theory & Srategy Forum" so everyone can give me the odds, how I played it wrong, what I could have done and what to do the next time I have the same hand in the same spot. How about AK suited "THREE times" in a row, On the button and in the last two seats. Beat in $10-20 by A.8.(os) K.3. (os) and pocket 9s who made trips on the river.No limit next week...lets see them call then...$750 to-go boys!
Dazzy,
Guess I need a life. Job only takes me a few hours a day and my investments and real estate holdings run them selves.
Can't wait to get to the UK to see how those palmies play pot limit.
Cheers cobber,
I just got back from Melbourne, and tho they did have the massive half-pot stud game, they never had anything else higher than 10-20(which is the equivalent of US $6.50-13). I was looking for something logarithmically in the middle, but to no avail. Still, I had a nice time not playing poker all the time, tho I did play 2-4 manila just for kicks. Pointer to bloated trip report to follow.
JG
I have been reading this forum for some time. This is my first posting. Had an interesting Hold Em hand. Was on button with Ac and Qh. 5 players call to me. I raise. All call. Flop was 10,J,Q all clubs. Checked to me. I bet. (nut Flush draw and top pair) Two callers. Turn card was Qd. Now have three Queens. Checked to me. I bet. Same two callers. At this point I count 22 outs to make a complete hand. 9 clubs, 3 Aces, 3 kings (Kc already counted), any 10, or J (6 more outs) and the case Q.
So I pose this question: As to the river card only, what holding and board with 4 up cards would provide the largest number of conceivable outs, under the following conditions; you do not already have a complete hand (straight or better) AND each out will make a complete hand (straight or better) AND you must use at least one hole card in each completed hand made? Like to hear from others on this Q. Maximum Outs??
To finish the story. So I have 22 outs. The river brings the 9 of spades. First player bets and other opponent calls. I soup. Both show Kings. One has Kc. The poker gods did not smile!!!
BusyZ - you'd probably get more action on this post in the strategy section.
I'm not sure why three queens doesn't qualify as a "complete" hand, but the answer is 25: 9 full house cards, 9 flush cards, 6 open-end straight cards of other suits, and 1 to hit quads, about 1.2-1 for.
By the way, taking into account your opponents' kings, you had 38 "outs" (cards that make you win) going into the last card giving your opponents a collective chance of less than a 14% of taking this pot away from you. Your draws had no bearing on the probability of your winning the hand.
I'm getting tired of these players demanding new set ups and deck changes every 10 mins. It takes time away from the game and is a useless exercise. I wish card rooms would just stop it or require $2 fee for a set up and 1 for a deck change. Maybe that would stop these people from requesting it.
Rounder,
At FW they change the deck everytime a new dealer comes in. You could use this as a bargaining chip if a new dealer is coming over shortly, tell the clown that a new dealer will be here shortly, and he will change the deck. Since they started using this rule there have been less changes I have noticed, from the CLOWNS who think the deck is the PROBLEM!!
Paul
Hello everyone, I am looking for someone who is good with creating and/or editing .BMP files. What I need is a poker room design that includes a few pre-set boundaries for a Poker game online. If you can help me out, and are in fact a good .BMP creator/editor, there is also a chance to make some $$$.
Please Email if you can help!, Crazy Joe
EMAIL ADDRESS IS:KRONERJ@HOTMAIL.COM
I would love to earn some extra $$$ creating a BMP file for you. By the way, what exactly is a BMP file??
A bmp ("bump") file is what you stumble into after having too many late night drinks at the office....
Oh, now that helps. When did you say your next appearance at the comedy club is again?
why do you need bmp file? why not gif or jpg? I assume you are online on the web.
Yes I am on the web, and my site only supports the .BMP format (The format typically used in the simple "Paint" Program that comes with windows). Can any of you help me? I need good artistry
Thanks!, Crazy Joe
Would someone define this term for me? Thanks.
turn and river cards. Like if you have a runner-runner flush you got your fourth and fifth suited cards on the turn and river.
So, its the same as a back-door?
Not necessarily. Runner-runner comes from the idea of running cards; ie "Running Fives" Or "Running Queens". A back door hand is not necessarily the hand you were trying to make, but just happened to come along. If you need the last to cards to make a hand...it would be called runner-runner.
you are all sadly mistaken. what Jon did was something we all do from time to time. we dont listen clearly. he actually heard the term summer runner. it refers to someone who likes to jog around the park but does not like being outside in the winter time. hence the term summer runner. in the future lets keep this about gambling and not athletics.
Got To Run
Actually, Mr. Zee, you are mistaken. I now believe the original poster was watching a cocktail waitress at the Imperial Palace, as she hustled drinks. Someone remarked, "What a stunning runner."
I have gone back to where I originally saw the phrase. Turns out, it was in the Starr Report -- the exact phrase was "summer hummer".
It was probably the quote from Clinton when he first heard that the FBI had the cocktail dress and was doing some DNA testing............"Bummer, Bummer".
Rick Nebiolo
I've only played one orbit of it in real life. Most people hated it. I think its kinduva cool game really though.
Its called "Seasons".
Betting and Dealing go just like holdem.
Its a split game though. Best High poker hand and lowest "Season" split the pot. A season is a four card hand that has one of each suit. Pairs don't count against you and Aces are high. So nut season is 4 dueces and next best season is 3 dueces and a trey ... etc.
It goes against every visual instinct you've ever developed for playing poker. It makes your head hurt trying to figure out what you've got and if its any good. And I think it actually gives lots of players legitimate draws.One of the hands I played I saw nobody make a season with a 2 suited board, and a pair of fives or sixes scooped a pretty hefty pot. Don't really know how big of a flook that is.
When trying to figure out who has best season I recommend not trying to find any mental shortcuts. Just have everybody say what their lowest season is.
It seems like a very complicated game to me. If somebody analyzed it, this might prove illusory. But deal some hands out to yourself, or try it at next wild dealers choice game.
If anybody plays it or figures anything out about it, lemme know.
Somebody posted this to RGP some while back under the same name. I played it a few times in a home game. It seemed to be a general crowd pleaser.
Played this last night in our home game and won a couple of monster pots. It's not uncommon for a lot of players going for the "low" and if you've got a low pair you've got a reasonable chance to scoop the pot. We also played it pineapple style with each player dealt 3 cards and pitching one card before the flop. Lotsa action.
There aren't any sites to play poker,(real poker, not video) which require no downloading are there? Thanks.
funcom.com does not require downloading any software, but it is NOT for real money. It is a real poker game against live opponents, just for points instead of cash.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Do you know if any of the online poker sites offer Om/8? I don't believe either Paradise or Planet Poker do.
Does anyone know if this is any good
I have just returned from Reno and the Peppermill Tournament for the 8th time in about 4 years.
Several players were talking about the Harvey's Tournament during this week (and on previous trips). I don't have any first hand knowledge of this tournament. General consensus that I heard was that it was a nice small tourney. Fields are small, perhaps 60-80 for the daily events. I have stayed and played at Harvey's in the past and found it to be a friendly and well-run room. tournament should be well-run, there is plenty of good tournament poker talent available in that Reno-Tahoe area.
Natural beauty of the area is awesome. That alone is worth the trip if you have never been there.
Diane from Green Bay
How about posting a trip report?
MAH- I will post a trip report once I have a chance to get caught up on the rest of my non-poker life. I was gone 9 days and need some time at work and at home first.
I Promise to do one shortly.
Diane from Green Bay
I've never played this tourney (but plan on doing so this year) but given the buy ins I'd guess it was pretty small. The area is beautiful and the poker room staff great.
Sklansky writes something along these lines: If the game is good, you should play on absent other commitments even if you have to use toothpicks to keep your eyes open.
Well, I was in a great game the other day but not having much luck. I had already played 10 hours (which is well beyond my usual limit) when the pitfalls of using toothpicks reared its ugly head.
I pick up Ac10c in late position. UTG (a solid player) raises and the whole crew (I mean everybody) calls. I of course call.
Flop: Ad9h3c
It gets checked to me. I bet. UTG raises and a bunch of players call.
Turn: 5c
UTG checks. Some other guy bets. I call and UTG smokes it again. We end up taking the River card 3 handed with me focussed on trying to fluke out by hitting a 10.
River: 7c
UTG bets. Other guy raises and this where the toothpicks fail to work for me. I was so focussed on trying to hit a 10 that I threw away the nuts!
You ought to have seen the look of horror on my face as I realized as soon as the cards hit the muck what I had just done.
Doh!
Needless to say, I picked up my chips and left the cardroom in disgust down $380 for the day.
Anyway, just wondered if any of you guys have pulled boneheaded moves like that.
skp,
Funny you brought this up - last night I was up all night have some personal problems and when my kids are involved I am a wreck.
Well I went (against my best instincts) to a Sat morning tournament I usually win 1/2 the time 4 for 8 + 2 high placings. It is a soft one and almost guaranteed money.
1st hand I enter I had J8s in the BB - flop 9-T-Q I'm playing it like it's a nut cuz I didn't "realize" it wasn't and there was a KJ that cost me a lot. Other bone head play was AKs raise flop T Q J rainbow I play it as a nut straight A hits on the thurn and I still have the best hand may be a chop at worst river blank bet it out like I should with the nuts.
I call Straight except the hole cards were AQs not AK I thought I had 2 pair and I lose to a K6. Well I should have stayed home. Played 2 hands all wrong cuz I was tired and not in a emotional state to be playing a game that takes all my concentration.
I should be arrested for impersonating a poker player.
would you two kindly step to the back of the line and let the rest of us that never make mistakes get in front(;= someday ill tell about my bonehead plays and lose any credibility i have left.
what! you made bonehead plays? i might as well start using caps.
scott
I'm glad to know I'm not the only one...
Twice in August I called a river bet heads up and after the other player showed his cards I mucked a hand that beat it... doh!
Pocket 77 in late position, multiway, flop is a miracle 755. Aggressive player opens early, passive guy in middle raises, and the war is on just long enough for me to worry a little about quads. Turn is a 6 and the opener still leads; middle guy calls and I fire back. River is a five. Damn! Opener bets, middle guy calls, I call and strain to see the opener's five (he's across the table). Opener shows little cards which at first look to me like they include a five. They don't. But when the middle guy rolls over pocket kings I think: hell, I couldn't beat fives full of kings anyway. I flash my cards to two astonished players to my right just before I slip them facedown into the muck.
Ha! that's a good one...amazing what kind of crazy things we do at the tables.
I've thrown away the big blind pre-flop *seeing* a raise that wasn't there. "I know I'm tired, but the game is good", shouldn't cut it since there always seems to be a good game anyway.
I have pocket 5's board is Q 5 x Q x - I show down with caller who has Q K I say OH I just have a set of 5's DUH - the dealer pushes the pot to the trip Q's and half way throught the next hand I say hey (delayed reaction) "I had a full house" and everyone agreed with me even the winner - the trip Q's guy offered to give me the money dealer called the floor and "I said I ought to be arrested for impersonating a poker player" I said don't need a floor and told the guy to keep the money - I was rewarded with a bunch of comps by the floor - and told I was a gentleman about it. I just thought I was really stupid and diserved a good whooping for my lapse of concentration.
You would have felt even more disgusted if you had kept reraising with your A high flush only to discover that another player really did have the nuts (4c6c).
Touche.
I revise my post to say "I threw away the probable nuts"
I've got an entire laundry list of plays like this. Here are a couple of my favorites, all stemming from the days when I used to play loooonngg sessions (something, thankfully, that I haven't done in about 3 months).
1) Throwing away a suited slick in early position, thinking that the king was somehow a 3 (don't ask).
2) Asking-- nay, demanding-- that I be rewarded the pot when the board comes AAAA4, I have pocket Q's and the other guy has a K7.
3) Mucking a 'nut' flush on a double paired board (and not even showing it down) when I'm in early position and the two guys behind me check (yes, it was a winner).
Again, let me stress that this is a mere sampling of the savvy moves I've pulled off in my HE career.
Anyway, tough break skp. But trust me, it could be worse--- you could be as stupid as I.
First, I can promise you that I've done poker stuff on a par with hitting the "post message" key before I've even completed the p
I had Laser eye correction surgery, which left me with some slight double vision in certain conditions. Unfortunately, the low-light card room is where the problem manifests most significantly.
I had QQ in late position, board was something like 4 5 8 J 9, was check called all the way to the turn, and then the early seat then bet into me on the river.
I simply called and my opponent thru down what I thought were two eights, for set. This individual had showed me 2 other sets in the last couple of hours so I was somewhat conditioned to muck. I tossed my queens in the muck (something I almost never do, which is why this hurts) and then was told he had 7,8 for 1 pair.
Larry
Ya, the poor lighting in a cardroom got me once too when I proudly made it 4 bets on the end when there were 3 Diamonds showing (unpaired board) thinking that I had AdQd when in fact it was AsQd. Luckily, my opponent only had King high Diamonds. If he had Ace high Diamonds, we may still be raising each other.
Husband and Wife take seats next to each other at the far side if the table. While watching their play, they clearly are there to make money,have studied game,play right cards from correct positions,the only other player at table that fits this description is me. As time goes on,notice they rarely bet the first round together(Holdem),few times they do,one always mucks if other bets flop. In three hours,bet flop same time once,everybody else dropped,they checked down before cards hit board. About an hr in,notice woman occasionally makes comments to hubby after checking cards,shes sitting next to regular who says nothing so this may be innocent. I don't believe were covertly cheating,do believe collusion was implied. I don't want to make a scene or switch games,so I make it obvious I'm watching them very closely,woman picks up on it and talking stops. Coincidently they each go from up a rack each to down a rack each. My question is how significant is this type of behavior on game quality(full table)
This happens time to time in Tourist type low limit games I've played in. The fact that the couple was obvious about their collusion like activities makes me think that they really don't know the game that well, or aren't very serious.
If bothered me, I'd discretely let the Floorman know and if she's worth her salt she'll keep an eye on them with me.
Later, CV
I see Mike Saxton has announced that next years TOC will include a $50 dealer remuneration fee in all entry fees.
Three cheers for Mike and the TOC Inc. board.
I am really tired of cashing out after a tournament and having the guy handing out the cash saying don't forget the dealers and the big envelop, box or what ever carrire labeled dealers work for tokes sitting there.
I am the 1st to tip and toke at the tables and wait staff I have been in the sevice industry and had many employees look for tips to suppliment their income and that's OK -
BUT, I see tournaments in a different light. I believe it is in everyones interest to make sure the dealers are well paid for their professional services and should not be dependent on a few winners for their largess.
So tournament directors take a lesson from Mike and the TOC guys and add the dealers pay into the entry fee. I'd prefer it and wonder what other tournement players think.
If they feel a particular dealer did a particuraly good job well they can be taken care of seperatly.
it may work as long as its recognized that that takes care of all the tips. what i believe will happen is that many winners will give a big tip anyway(which is their right) and the pressure to tip will continue onward. $50 out of all entries seems like too much so i suspect that amount is for the big one only. in a one day tournament each player maybe averages 5 hours of play, that means each person tips $10 an hour whether they do well or not. thats $80 or 100 an hour per table for tips. of course my math here is very unaccurate. i personally like the idea of each individual tipping what he feels like the service is worth and the casino should be responsible to ensure a fair salary for all. thats what Mike seems to be trying to do by including tips in the entry price. whether its the best way to do it will be seen.
Post deleted at author's request.
1. so then how much per hour is the table toking?
2. and is this a fair amount?
3. does this relieve a winner from leaving any tip since its been now paid for?
I thought I would change the subject slightly. In the article that Mike Sexton wrote (in his CARD PLAYER column) he explained why the juice on the tournament had to be increased. Add this to the mandatory tip and you have a very large takeout.
Sexton also went through all the tournament expenses and showed why increase is necessary (so that they would not loose so much next year). Now I'm writing this from memory, so someone correct me if I am wrong, but I don't remember reading anything about the drop in the side games. It seems to me that this important component was left out of his analysis.
By the way I do understand that this was a very well run tournament and that most everyone was happy with its outcome.
Post deleted at author's request.
well i know Mike Sexton very well and im sure he represents the best interest of the players. if he doesnt get a piece of the drop and the orleans is going to make all the dough from his work its time to find a place that will give out some back. as his tournament builds to be perhaps the biggest in the world he will have the clout to make the rules. it will happen when one of the big joints picks it up and treats it like a business decision. when slim had the tournament in tahoe at the high sierra he had a piece of all the poker drop and i understand he had a piece of all the casino action that showed an increase because of his bringing the players in. now thats an incentive to get money people to come.
Ray couldn't have said it better. If Mike Sexton and the TOC could get a piece of the drop (like I think they should) they might be able to lower entry fees instead of increasing them.
Post deleted at author's request.
Here is my take on the TOC:
1. If it wasn't for the "Orleans Open" tournament the TOC would not have been such a big success. The TOC had to hitch its star to "somebody." It can't be successful in a vacuum.
2. I found in interesting that the TOC considered itself a seperate entity from the Orleans Open. After all one followed right on the heels of the other. One helped the other. Again, just having a TOC tournament all by itself wouldn't have worked. I wouldn't have gone under those circumstances.
3. As far as the $50 toke thing is concerned I feel this way. If you are going to take the tokes out up front then there should be no toking at all. Either you pay for the tokes up front or you don't. I object to taking money out of the entry fees for tokes and then STILL accepting toke money on top of that. I don't feel it should work that way.
4. $200 in entry fees is way too high. I refuse to pay it.
5. I too read the article in Card Player and I felt that about half of the money spent was unnecessary.
6. They also disallowed any deals. Yet, Barbara Enright and the other lady finalist (sorry, the name escapes me) split the earrings (they each took one) that were donated to the top lady finisher by Russ Hamilton. In effect, these earrings were a type of corporate prize money. (No big deal and I don't really care but it is just a point I thought I would bring up.)
7. The cars were unnecessary. If someone donated them or put up the money for them then fine. In that case it would be a nice touch to give away cars instead of cash but since the money came out of the players pockets I felt that it just didn't make any sense.
8. Too much pomp and circumstance.
9. The Orleans Open and the TOC were both very fine and well run events. The room was nice, and many poker players got more exercise than they have ever had before in their lives! Using an overhead projector and an Excel spreadsheet for the waiting lists, although a little unorganized in the beginning was a brain child in my opinion. Once the operators got the hang of it it worked fine and erased a lot of headaches associated with tournament side game seating lists. I can only see improvements in this system, the Orleans Open, and the TOC in the coming years ahead.
10. However, I still do not see much hope for serious corporate sponsorship. But I do of course hope that I am wrong.
Hey, Just wondering what is the traditional jackpot toke. I hear that it is 10%, but that seems like a bit much when you have won over $6,000.00. Please advise me which is the corrrect toke.
Thank You,
Chris H
The dealer is NOT your partner. I won a few jackpots last year and didn't feel obliged to toke more than a point or 2.
After all we put a buck a hand down the black hole and when we get a bit of it back we are supposed to give several hundred dollars away. I also gave the floor a bill to buy the shift a drink.
On $6K you can make $100 to $150 and sleep very well.
The dealer is NOT your partner. I won a few jackpots last year and didn't feel obliged to toke more than a point or 2.
Are you counting these jackpots toward your hourly rate?
Of course not.
Why not? You put the dollar in the hole.
I've been lucky and won a jackpot of about $5300 and I toked $70 (about 1 1/4%). I think 1% is appropriate because that is even more, percentage wise, than what I toke in a normal game ($1 per half hour, usually 10-20). Heck, I suppose I wouldn't feel bad even if I toked nothing. I give $2 and hour to the dealer regardless of whether I'm winning or losing and how big the pots are so why should this be an exception, especially seeing as how I've been paying that dollar per pot for so long.
We are getting pretty close to the first annual MARGE(Mississippi Autumn Rec Gambling Excursion). The dates for the event are Nov 18th through Nov 20th. MARGE will take place in Biloxi and Gulfport at the Grands. The Thursday evening Omaha 8 tourney is in Biloxi. The Friday noon SHO(Stud,Holdem,Omaha) Tourney is in Gulfport. The Saturday noon No Limit Holdem Tourney is in Biloxi. All 3 tourney winners will receive a TOC qualification as long as 4 tables play. We currently have 4 tables each for the first 2 events and 5 for the NLHE. In addition to the tourneys there will be a Best All Around Player Award. You must play in all 3 events to qualify for this award which includes a 4th TOC qualification. We have other official and non official events planned including our featured speaker,Gary Carson, speaking on Saturday Night. There will be a Midnight Madness NLHE winner take all freezeout on Saturday night. This event is full, but if we get enough interest we may try for another night as well. Peter Secor is running the first satellite tourney for the Barge World Roshambo Championship annually run by the tiltboys except for this past year. See their classic BARGE 99 trip report in the archives.(They Pussed Out). They may be a Cal^H^H^H^H^H Symposium for the NLHE Tourney. For all the information and to register for MARGE go to www.conjelco.com/marge.html
I know some folks in the Biloxi area are planning on attending without registering. While we welcome the opportunity to meet all RGPers, all MARGE official tourneys and events are open only to those who register via the internet. The fee is only $15 and this covers badges, trophies, a room for our awards ceremony and speaker.
Randy Collack
Is there a casino that has 5-10 holdem in the Los Angeles area? If not, where are all the people from who are writing about their 5-10 hands in the other forum?
I believe that in LA you will more often see 4-8 and 6-12 HE, and very rarely 5-10. 5-10 (with a kill) is spread here in Connecticut, and I believe appears in LV occasionally. Not sure which format is most common on the riverboats and southern casinos.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks Greg, I'm surprised I even got a reply on this, let alone so quick. Not many of the regulars cruise this gambling exchange.
Its also spread in Atlantic City (Taj and the Trop)
They spread it in Aurora Ill. - Casino Managers hate 5-10 cuz it doesn't generate the visually big pots. They like alot of chips in the center.
I might be checking out the Hollywood in Aurora. What's the blind structure for 5-10. What other games and limits do they spread?
Thery spread a 10-20 20-40 at times call for the nights schedule also - only a few tables the nights I have been there only 4 were going. 5-10 is the softest game I have played in for some time. I think most of the players are stud players who had no idea how to "read" a HE board. I was "gone after" because I beat this lady and she was "gonna get me" by giving me alot of her dollars. Blinds I think were 2-5 - lots of drinkers and arguements but great action so I think it is worth it.
I wish you Success if you go there.
The other day I was in a bookstore and noticed a copy of Theory of Poker copyrighted in 1999. I looked in the Intro and saw nothing mentioning that it was a new edition and nothing on this webpage suggesting a new edtion was published. I looked through and didnt notice any new chapters/topics etc.. Was this just a more recent printing or what?
Hello, I am taking a poll on Holdem Poker on the web. As you all know, there are several places online to play Texas Hold'em for $$$. All of these places support limit live poker games. However, would you try a card room thats main focus was Tournament play? Heres how it would work. Several tournaments a week, most of them $20-$40 buy ins with rebuys (Some without). Once a week, there will be a "Major Tournament" for some higher limit tourneys. Obviously, the bigger the buy-in, the bigger the prize, including a personalized certificate for each win. You can play whenever you like, but there will also be a Money-leaders list and winners list on the websight, and at the end of each year, the top 50 players can qualify to compete on that years World online Championships, including a big prize and nice trophy. Obviously, there will also be ring games, but how would you feel about this tourney focus?
Please post a helpful response, Thank You! -Crazy Joe
C J - Playing poker on the net has to be like cyber sex (which I can only imagine).
I would find it impossible to play MY game with out seeing, feeling smelling the players and the personality of the table. Sorry no net poker for me.
I like the concept, but I think that tournaments suffer from several online disadvantages as compared to ring game poker.
All of these are essentially a result of the fact that a tournament takes a certain amount of time, and you must be present for the entirety of the event.
Right now, I believe that Planet Poker has a rule when you get disconnected from the game for any reason. They rule you all-in, and continue the hand with other players building a side-pot. Then, when you reconnect later you'll find out if you won or lost the main pot. Even if you don't reconnect for days, the money is there if you won. What do you do in a tournament when a player's computer or ISP crashes? By the time they get back on, the tournament could easily be over. Even if they manage to get back on in just 10-20 minutes or less, they may have lost some crucial time (think about heads-up play at the end and being gone for 20 minutes). Even if the poker website crashes, and no one is suffering in absentia, what about players who can't make the tournament at it's newly scheduled time? There is no fair way to handle these issues that I can immediately think of.
The main plus to online poker (my guess, as I don't play it) would seem to be the ease of getting in and out. If you know that you'll have a little time you can log in and play. Then, when your wife starts shouting at you to mow the lawn, you can immediately quit. In a tournament, you cannot, without suffering a severe monetary penalty, just quit in the middle. You need to know in advance that you'll be available for the entire tournament period.
I'm sure that there are many other problems, but these are enough to convince me that online tournaments just aren't in my future for now.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I guess with my newly acquired superstar status I should have a worthwhile opinion about Rick's idea. Well, I don't, but I'll fake it. I do find it hard to keep up with all the posts now. So, like others, I have to be more selective and just look for what I'm interested in. Threads do get buried down the line mighty fast on busy days. I guess as long as the software can keep up to speed (It's been slower than normal for the last day or so, but I assume that's just a temporary glitch.) it's really not too big a problem. We just have to get used to scrolling down much farther than in the past to return to a thread we're watching.
If I were to suggest a split, I think the first I'd consider would be a separate forum for tournament posts. Chris Alger makes a good point that tournaments and live games overlap conceptually, but I think that will be a problem in almost any split. And since I don't play tournaments, well, send 'em packing to another forum! Just kidding. Actually, it just bothers me to read T3000 and T250, so I skip a lot of the tournament posts. ;) I don't know; I just think a tournament Forum would make some sense.
I hear Big John's point too. I like the idea of supporting generalists by keeping a good mix all in one place. By necessity I'm something of a hold'em specialist. But I admire the abilities of the generalist, and wish I had more opportunity in my area to develop them myself.
So I can go along with Mason's view toward leaving well enough alone for the time being. If the volume gets totally out of hand, I'm sure Rick's resume will be on top of the stack on Mason's desk. But seriously, maybe the answer will lie in the software, as Andrew Prock suggests.
As for this "superstar" stuff, once you get past the big three (DS, MM, RZ), there's only one superstar here, and it's not me. Like Izmet with his rural villager roots, I'm just a modest poster from humble Irish stock. (Just ask Brother Paul.) Yes, I was one step ahead of Rick in the HTML thing, but he passed me by in a flash, while Tom just laughed at us both as he knew the easy way all along. The only superstar is Rounder. I make no where near his hourly rate. 'Nuff said.
im sorry John but you thinking is all mixed up.
1.you say you admire the generals while i admire the infantry.
2.you may be the superstar.
3.im sorry you come from irish stock. we have the same problem here in montana where we cant keep those horny cowboys away from the sheep.
4.Paul cant be your brother as we can understand you clearly and have no hope of getting what he is talking about.
5.you can never be one step ahead of Rick as he is always running somewhere and by definition you are starting out behind.
6. dont worry about Tom its sports season and he is stuck on the other games forum.
7.if you want to achieve rounders hourly rate just dont ever go for a draw even if the odds look good.
8. ill see you in california this winter and for an exorbitant fee ill set you straight.
How about splitting it into Holdem side games and non holdem games plus tournament strategy. That should cut things pretty closse to down the middle.
"I don't care what you guys do with the forum but I would just like to say that I saw Ray Zee's picture in Poker Digest and I want to have his baby!"
At Ray's age you'll have to rely on artificial insemination!
Vince.
Actually, if she wears bearskin and growls in a realistic manner, Ray just might be able to accomodate her the old fashioned way. I suggest she bring a gallon of "white lightning" with her though to establish the mood. Given her spontaniety in previous posts, I'm sure we will all read the details if she has any measure of success in getting him to come across.
FORUMS=HE--NHEG--TNMTS--BS--ARCHIVES
David that sounds like the simplest one that I've seen. Probably one that may work.
East Coast Feeney
7. Wrong.
I have said I avoid drawing hands early and middle position in ring games and completely avoid them in NL tournaments and mostly in Limit tournaments.
I will only draw IF the pot is potentially large eneough and if I am drawing to a winner IE: nut flush - or the right end of an openended straight.
My God, a whole thread has developed here! I've been a little busy obsessing over the minutia of small pairs and implied odds, and didn't get over here for a bit. Ray's post here and Vince's (about the Superstar Forum, etc.) on the other Forum are the two funniest I've read in a loooong time. Maybe we need a Funny Forum too :-) I could post excerpts from the old lost text, "Drawing Dead and Getting There". Or maybe Jim Geary would grace us with a section from his, "Check and Call Your Way to Victory". (Where is Jim these days, anyway?) Vince, who else should we let post on our SS Forum?
John,
I also thought Vince's and ray's posts were hilarious. It even cheered my wife up when I printed them out for her. In the superstar forum, I think we should include Abdul so he will post here again. Then Rounder should be included so that everyone will have five big bets an hour to shoot for.
I also wonder if Brenda Wyatt is aware of the divorce rate for gamblers and the fact that ray zee lives in a cave type dwelling in the woods with no running water and no place to plug in a hair dryer. Plus she would have to feed her baby bear meat.
Regards,
Rick
I thought he had a rug.
I was also thinking about starting a "lurkers' forum", where only lurkers could post, but I can't seem to get the concept right somehow.
I look forward to possibly seeing both you and Ray down here this winter, but I worry a bit about that exorbitant fee Ray mentions. I understand a player from a game he was in was once seen stumbling away, empty handed, mumbling, "exorbitant... so much money... that's just so exorbitant..!"
(BTW, Ocean's Eleven 40-80 went non-stop for 3 days last week, and two so far this week.)
"who else should we let post on our SS Forum? "
Bill Gates. - He could post on low limit poker and Monopoly. Two games I've heard he's good at.
Will Smith - I saw at Bellagio's one day playing poker.
Michael Jordan - Wonder if he bets basketball? He could post on how to play Black Jack (not)
OJ (Need to keep the riff raff out. he'd scare em away)
Brenda Wyatt - What a comedian, Ray Zee's baby. She must not have seen "Rosemary's baby."
Telly Savalas - Nice head. Posthumous posts, hmmm what a concept.
Adolph Hitler - He had his own group of SS'ers. O.K. so that's not funny.
Whatta ya think? Of course we would have to vote on their inclusion. Rick could be the deciding vote. He could be the disinterested party because we certainly would'nt allow him in our SS forum.
Vince.
Those are good ideas Vince. And in your honor I think we should call it the 2+2 Superstar Leporum.
John your toooo kind, again. How about: SuperJohnStarVinceaboretumforum.place.
Vince.
in case you did not read rick nebiolo's message in the 'a cheeky raise' thread posted at 6:15pm on friday, november 5th, i will reproduce a portion here.
"superstars like Vince, scott, John Feeney"
perhaps i should say it again.
"superstars like Vince, scott, John Feeney"
i believe i have made my point.
scott
Scott,
Sometimes even Rick makes a mistake. Notice I said A mistake. Should now be eAsy for you to determine which of the 3 mentioned was the mis(cot)take.
Vince
well, one of the alleged superstars was SELF-DECLARED. which one would that be? most likely the mistake.
scott
It's okay with me if you join our group, Scott. But take it from me -- superstardom is not all it's cracked up to be. Madonna and I can hardly go out to lunch together anymore without being mobbed. (But why those fans never ask any poker questions is beyond me.)
dont talk to me about madonna. she and i aren't on speaking terms. not after what she did.
don't worry about your fans. i'm sure they just dont want to embarass themselves. poker can get get tricky sometimes. they just play it safe, focusing on movies, music, etc. you know, easy stuff.
on a more serious note, you should be warren beatty's vp canidate. one of his most admirble qualities is madonna. and the two of you will certainly solve my one political issue -- the gambling age. (well, i actually have 3 more. the speed limit, the drinking age, and the legalization of marijuana. but gambling is the top priority.)
scott
I've noticed that when you access the forums link you drop right into the Poker Strategy page. A way to make people think about where to post their question would be to have a limbo area with a the Forums given equal weight to choose from.
A good place to see this format is at Stanford Wong's page.
Later, CV
geez i hate it when someone thinks of something i didnt even consider.
CV,
You are right of course. This should be fixed but it won't make much difference except for first time visitors. I'm guessing most of us bypass the home page (don't worry Mason - we own all your books) and "Bookmark" or "Favorite" the Exchange and Poker Strategy pages. I use a non-frames version (i.e., my URL eliminates the links on the left providing more room) and have shortcuts right on my desktop.
I do think the Exchange needs to be renamed. It sounds like a competitor to ebay or one of the super shopping sights like buy.com. I still don't have an idea much better than "Gambling Chat" though which may be a step backward.
I don't necessarily think it is super important that any breakout splits things up evenly in terms of volume. The main thing is that any split provide categories that stand by themselves and reduce a chunk of the volume. Now that I've read the other responses, I favor the following:
Forums
- Poker Strategy [This link would send you to a page explaining the purpose and posting guidelines for each forum one level below with links)
- - Limit Poker
- - Pot & No Limit
- - Tournaments
- Other Gambling Games
- Exchange (or whatever it gets renamed)
- Archives
It does seem that breaking out limit holdem from other limit games will leave the problem of where to include general questions that cross over. That is all for now. Gotta Run.
Regards,
Rick
Many long term posters tend to post non Strategy questions on the Poker Strategy page because they know it will be the the first thing everyone sees when they come to 2+2.
I'd realy like to see the the different versions of poker split up to maybe: Stud, Hold'em, Hi/Low Split, Tournaments, Other. Its too bad Sklansky is right about Limit Hold'em vs. All other games.
Later, CV
The growth of the forum shows that new people (like myself) are playing the game. As you can all tell, the focus of new players is very different from those of more experienced (I didn't say old) players. Less experienced players have fewer questions about the form of the game -- pot limit, no limit, tournament, etc. -- and more fundamental questions that go to the more basic principles that get discussed. Experienced players playing no/pot limit and tournies don't want (I imagine) to wade through all of my basic (ie remedial questions) posts to get to what they want.
Therefore, I think a natural division of the forum would be into a Limit Poker forum, No/Pot Limit and Tournament forum, Exchange, and Archives.
This would still maintain the interaction between all kinds of players still.
According to Mr.Z I am wallowing in the pit of low limit scum can only win IF my competition is retarted or crazy.
Maybe I am a heritic and not a purist.
But it works for me. :-)
No Rounder thats not right. i was making light of your insistance not to draw in spite of pot odds. if you are winning as you say it most likely means you are unconciously applying pot odds to your decisions. if you are truly folding draws with great odds then its costly to your long term results and i stand by my statement that it will not be possible to win in higher stakes games giving up so much. by your posts i believe you could improve your understanding (as well as most of us) of of how we can best maximize our profits from making "more" correct plays.
Last WSOP I heard that some poker playing movie maker was making a poker movie called "The Big Blind" does anyone have any info on it. Besides being an avid golfer and Poker player I just love movies see maybe 5/6 a week.
The producer (David James ?) was only a movie maker after this movie, because it was his first. He is a very likable guy (I've played with him quite a few times) who runs his own executive search (headhunting) company, and plays poker avidly. Apparently he also knows something about film-making and always wanted to do his own movie, and he did Big Blind.
The movie was filmed at Lake Elsinore Cardroom in SoCal, with costars Scotty Nguyen and Jennifer Harmon, plus other poker players, as well as professional actors. I have heard that all the film is in the can, and has even been edited, but is awaiting a distributor to purchase it.
If anyone has any further info, I'd be interested as well.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
X
I'm sure this forum has discussed it before, but can someone give me a few quick comments and opinions on online poker?
I have in mind questions like:
--Which is better Paradise Poker or Planet Poker? Why?
--How safe, fast, fun are these games?
--How good are the players?
The following link will take you to a fairly extensive discussion stored in the archives:
http://www.twoplustwo.com/cgi-bin/excharch1.pl?read=2572
If the link is not active, copy it then paste it into the address bar of your Web browser.
I have played at both sites and I like Paradise better because I think the software is superior. Better graphics, more games, more polished etc. They have not started real money yet (Nov 17) so I can't comment on their real money aspect.
I think both sites are safe with respect to the fact they are not going to cheat you as they have too much invested. I would be wary of collusion though I never really noticed any (I would be wary of collusion in traditional cardrooms as well). As for fun, I like them both because I love poker. The player's abilities seemed equal to the regular games I play in, with some rocks, some fish and some maniacs.
Hope that helps a bit.
no mention of Deltapoker? I think the best, safest, by far the most enjoyable of them all
I'm thinking about playing no limit holdem at the Players Club in Ventura California tonight.
Has anyone been there?
Any comments or advice would be appreciated.
- the flyin hawaiian
Post deleted at author's request.
Thanks Badger. I've never played no limit before, but I'm willing to give it a try.
Any other opinions or information?
-FH
I have a friend who used to play there all the time. From what I've heard about it, it would be a good place to get your first experience with no-limit. The blinds are about $3 and $5. There are some good no-limit players who go there from L.A. and elsewhere, but enough money being thrown around as well.
btw, you probably know this but the game only goes one or two days a week. I don't know which days.
It's been a few years but I have fond memories of the place. Very homey and a nice customer base with homemade meals on Sunday. Great small limit Omaha H/L with a chance to take a shot in the pot limit game to top off the day (I think it used to be put down on Wednesdays and Saturdays).
One warning. The men's room bathroom is probably larger in the Apollo capsule. Take your Metamusil the night before and finish your business before you get there.
Regards,
Rick
i can see why it would concern you greatly about the small bathroom as you always are on the run. maybe some time in the future you can give us a post on the places with the most user friendly bathrooms.
Ray,
Are you suggesting Rick is the George Costanza of 2+2.
Rounder,
You are wrong again. Personality wise, I'm actually a lot closer to Andy Sipowitz in "NYPD Blue" (played by Dennis Franz). George Costanza is way too much of a whiner for me, although I loved the TV show "Seinfeld". In addition, I have hair and may even be better looking than ray zee, but am probably not quite as smart.
The Players Club was just the only place I ever had to do my business with my knees touching my chin. It was an experience I would hate to see anyone have to repeat.
Regards,
Rick
and it is an experience that i would hate to see you repeat.
scott
Bring an outhouse, they have them in any size you just have type in your body size (whogivesashit.com) THEY DELIVER!!!!
goodluck
Paul,
I went to the website. It exists but they don't have anything for sale. Are you sure you have the right URL?
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
If your a Seinfeld fan you may remember the episode where George was telling Jerry where the best public rest rooms were all over NYC. No soup for you.
BTW what do you mean "wrong again" I haven't been wrong since Dec. 20, 1968.
The no limit game goes every Wednesday and Saturday. There will probably be two tables going all day. Get there early if you want to be in the main game. Buy in is $300, but the better players will have upwards to $2000 in front of them. Make sure you buckle your seat belt.
this post is about Ricks problems in bathrooms please stay on the topic.
I don't believe what I'm reading. Am I going nuts or what? As Louie says, Yadi Yadadu!!! He he he, I've got to run to my favorite place again......
A few readers have asked me to post a trip report, so I guess some do read these types of posts(besides me).
I was out in Reno from Thursday October 21-Saturday October 30th, timed to the annual fall Peppermill Tournament. I have made this trip twice a year for the past 4 years or so and always look forward to it with great enjoyment. Tourneys are well run, friendly capable crew, and great side action. I like to play both the tournaments and the side action, so there is stuff for me to do 24-7.
With a full-time career, husband and 3 kids, I have to plan carefully for poker so I can use my limited vacation time for the greatest enjoyment. I am not luck enough to live near any cardrooms. So every poker excursion means hopping a plane and leaving home for several days. The Peppermill tournament is something that I look forward to for months!
First day started off terrible with hubby running out of gas on the highway on the way to airport (and we were already running late). I called my son and work and he rescued me and got me to ticket counter (bag to check) with 12 minutes to spare before my flight. Fortunately others were late, so I was ok and even got my first class seat that I had upgraded to using frequent flyer miles. Life was good once I settled into the seat and enjoyed the food and service.
Flights were uneventful and so was check in at Pepppermill. They are in the midst of yet another construction project.....business must be very good. Room was ready, clean, quiet, and spacious. Drop the bags off and then down to poker.
Despite being the best poker room for action in Reno, the regular poker room is not the best in terms of physical set-up. Ceilings are low, smoke hovers, and lighting is dark. It is tucked in between the sportsbook and a bar. Now my understanding is that the ceiling is being removed and the room is being improved, so hopefully by my next visit, it will be better surroundings.
Anyhow, got to poker room and saw several staff members from prior trips including Margaret working the floor, and Billy V who has been promoted to manager of the room since my last visit. He does a great job and will be wonderful in his new role. Both greeted me warmly and I got a nice bear hug from Billy.
Settled into a $20-40 holdem game and played terribly. This happens a lot to Diane when she first arrives. I guess I have built up a lot of energy waiting for the game and then don't prepare the way I should. I play way too many hands out of position and without regard for the ability/position of the other players. Feeling like a loser, I leave after 5 hours down over $1,000 and go to bed.
Get some sleep and then my midwest internal alarm clock wakes me up at 2:30 am Reno time. I am wide awake, so go down naturally for more poker. Two games are still going on, a short handed $10-20 and a $15-30 which looks a lot like the $20-40 I had left earlier. Many of the same players. They must have gotten short-handed at some point and converted it into a $15-30 to entice more players.
Anyhow.........I sit down, play better, and after 4-5 hours I am now ahead $1600. What a change! I am playing better cards (in position) and making lots of extra bets off a wild young asian player with glasses on my left. He routinely 3 bets any raise that I make. Since others have been playing with him for hours, they know he 3 bets any raise regardless of cards, so they discount his raise, call the 3 bets and the pots are huge. He apparently has a style that raises/reraises with any draw and slow plays big pairs. Once we figured that out, I could hunker down and make lots of money from him and from the others on the pots he built for me.
At 8 a.m. we move from the regular poker room upstairs to the tournament area that is one of the convention areas/ballrooms. Large spacious room with high ceilings,yet smoke still is a problem all week for some reason...... Good thing we moved. Construction crews had shown up at 4 a.m. and started ripping out the ceiling in the poker room with saws and crowbars while we played on in the front of the room. It was quite a spectacle. All of us degenerate poker players playing in the midst of this construction rubble and noise.
Tournament was well attended and well run. Several *name* players were there including Barbara Enright, (with Max) Tom McEvoy, promoting heavily his Sam's Town tournament, Susie Isaacs, Linda Johnson, Jan Fisher, Vince Burgio, Jack Fox, Nilly P, Marie Gabert, Sue Byrd (last 4 are Reno locals) etc. I didn't see Brad Daugherty, who is usually around at these, since he is from Reno. Tuna Lund and Susie Isaacs placed high in two of the tournaments. Dealer gossip was that dealers were most unhappy that Tuna finished high--he is a lousy tipper and hard/abusive towards the dealers.
Diane played in two tournaments and was not a threat at all to anyone. However I did very well at live action. Fortunately, my loss of the first day was quickly re-couped and my bankroll soared from there. Even to the point that I had to make a side trip to the bank to convert excess cash to money orders! That doesn't happen very often. I covered all expenses (airfare, hotel, meals, tips, and tournament entries) and still made a very nice profit. I love going on vacation and making money doing what I love to do!!
I played $15-30 and $20-40 Holdem 16-18 hours a day and games were great. "Babycakes" is a wild local player. She can play well at times, but doesn't sustain it, especially when she is playing 2-3 days straight without a break. That lady has endurance! MOst irritating is they way she cackles and laughs/talks babytalk when winning. Very quiet when she loses. Between her and another lady, "Tina" from Oregon, games got too wild at times. They would just as soon play a 25o as they would KK's. Hard to put them on a hand. Some days, I relished playing with them......other sessions I just couldn't handle it and stayed away/transferred to other games if they were "hot". Several of the games became "too good" and I just didn't want the wild fluctuations. I seem to do better when I am the loosest player at the table instead of being 3rd or 4th loosest.
Entire tournament was well run and players never got out of hand. Regular Peppermill dealers are very skilled, and most of the contract dealers brought in for the tournament are also good. A few contract dealers were a bit ragged on enforcing local cardroom protocols, but that is to be expected each room is a bit different.
One unique Peppermill rule I saw was that if you moved seats at the table to a more advantageous one in relation to blinds, you had to either wait for your BB to occur naturally again, or you could come in sooner but had to post BOTH blinds. Other cardrooms generally only require you to post the BB, not BOTH. But apparently Peppermill had a problem with a regular player in the room who would move freqently to avoid blinds so they instituted the rule. Another different rule in Norther Nevada is that there is never a "dead" button. Button always moves forward and if player leaves, an additional blind gets posted. Creates more action and bigger pots, so I guess I do like that one. I wish though, that they would institute the "3rd Man Walking Rule" from MS cardrooms. Walkers especially at mealtimes were a problem.
I was pleased to hear Billy V announce that Peppermill was adding 2 more tournaments to their yearly schedule instead of the 2 they normally run, there will now be 4 each year.
Tournaments will now be held in January, March, June, and October. As a result, I guess I will have to revise my tournament traveling schedule. I was tentatively planning to attend the Carnivale in January in Vegas in Janauary for the 3rd year in a row. But now knowing that Peppermill is running a tournament close to the same time, hands down......I would rather go to Peppermill. Players are much friendlier, more midwest style than most Vegas poker players. Staff is friendly and competent as opposed to indifferent and arrogant in Vegas. Peppermill it is!!
Came home Saturday October 30th after 9 poker filled days. It was a great trip. I got to meet and greet many old friends and make some new ones. Can't wait to go back again in January!
Diane from Green Bay
Sounds like it went well. I'll be in Vegas Jan. 12th to the 18th for the Carnivale of Poker. Maybe, I'll run into you at the tables. I know it's a long way off, but I have to plan my trips several months in advance.
MAH- IF I go to Carnivale it would be for the opening weekend only......like Friday-----Tuesday or so. So we won't be there at the same time.
But at this point I am planning on probably skipping it in favor of returning to the Peppermill January 20-28. Side games are more profitable, players and staff friendlier, and I am unhappy with the room rates charged at Harrah's. I just like the "feel" or Reno so much better than Vegas for the games and atmosphere that I like when I play.
I also typically have to plan my trips out several months in advance with my hectic life. Not much impulsive travel on short notice with me either.
Take care, Diane
"A few readers have asked me to post a trip report, so I guess some do read these types of posts(besides me)."
Yes some do. Please keep on posting your trip reports.
I am going to Reno for a few days at the end of November. Any advice on where the best Hold em' games are? Thanks, Skeeter
Several places have low limit games such as $4-8. You may want to try the Reno Hilton, Eldorado, or newer room at Atlantis.
Red chip games $10-20, 15-30 etc. are only found at the Peppermill.
Eldorado also spreads a no - limit game certains days of the week.
Diane from Green Bay
That NL game at the Eldorado is quite good on Saturday nights, but the list can be long. Often you get a few players in it that have never played anything above 6-12 in northern CA and they are just in there to give away their 200-500 buy in. The locals can be pretty tough, but if you play relatively tight you will do fine. Lots of good sized pots for the small 2-5 blinds and the drop is only max $1. The Peppermill games are pretty lousy most of the time, with lots of locals just waiting for a live one. Reno is about the worst place I have ever been for poker really. The games are generally tight to just moderate and almost everything is very low limit. Seems like people enjoy 1-3 and 1-4 a lot.
I have only played at the Peppermill during the semi-annual tournaments. Never stepped foot in any other casino poker roomin the 4 years that I have been going out there. So my comments about the Hilton and other poker rooms is quite honestly just hear say.
However, IMO, from the many, many locals I have played with there, the locals who frequent the Peppermill are not a particularly tough group to beat. Yes, there are several that are solid, but the games can be beaten. Heck if Diane can win......anyone can.
A comment was made to me by a solid local red chip player (who's talent I respect) that they may avoid the side action in future during the tournaments because the influx of out of towners makes the games too tough to beat. Re=affirming that daily local action is much better day in and day out.
Diane
Have played all over Reno and in general agree with Wild Bill. Pepper Mill tight and slow with good players, Hilton has a good AM tourn. Boomtown has decent 3-6 games mostly tourists. I like Circus-Circus always a game a mix of locals and tourists. This is off the subject but N.Ca much better then Reno for Hold-em.
There are 4 classes of players in the Stud/Hold'em Poker Full Ring Game world:
LA= Loose Agressive a.k.a Maniac
LP= Loose Passive a.k.a Calling Station, Fish
TA= Tight Agressive a.k.a Solid Player
TP= Tight Passive a.k.a Rock, Weak Tight
Just a thought on how to get everyone speaking the same language, and also keeps the hand analysis on the same wavelength. I should have attached these designators on my last Strategy post, and will try to do this in the future.
Later, CV
"TA= Tight Agressive a.k.a Solid Player"
Excuse me CV, I am a solid player but you wouldn't call me tight. I believe a solid player is a cross between all four of your categories. Someone that can pick the appropriate style of play and use it to his advantage. I strive to play in that manner. I get in a lot of trouble for trying, I'll admit but it's the way I think the game should be played, by me that is.
Just a thought.
Vince.
I was just pigeon holing, Vince. Don't get too technical on me.
Later, CV
As long as we are getting technical, I think you forgot one:
"GBWWRBBWCPALBYTIEOHBYDWHTBUAL" - Gorgeous blond woman with really big breasts who can't play a lick but you take it easy on her because you don't want her to bust out and leave.
As long as we are getting technical, I think you forgot one:
"GBWWRBBWCPALBYTIEOHBYDWHTBOAL" - Gorgeous blond woman with really big breasts who can't play a lick but you take it easy on her because you don't want her to bust out and leave.
CV,
All you have to do is submit them to Chuck Weinstock and he will add them to the Abbrev. list that already exists. You could have them go in the Advanced Abbrev. List or do whatever you want. You could also change the name to strategy list abbrev. For each abbrev. they accept they give you $500 dollars that's why I started the list.
Paul
CV
so thats where all my royalty money is going. 500 a crack to that crazy Feeney character with all those stupid abreviations that i can never figure out. send him a check that he cant decipher.
I'm going on the road next week. First stop San Jose. Does anyone know of a place I can stay by the week?
I've stayed in a place in Sunnyvale for about $200 a week. It was 5 years ago though. Had a microwave, refrigerator, vcr, hot tub. Not bad.
Any help will be amply rewarded!
They have a nice Freeway overpass I used to sleep under after I lost all my money there one summer. Right at the corner of Lampson and Randoll Ave., ya can't miss it.
Tell em Zack sent ya,
Has anyone heard of a new computer game called Poker Night with David Sklansky which is put out by Interplay?
If so, can you give me any details on it? What games are included? How good are the computer players? What is the betting structure? Etc.
I am curious as to why Mr. Sklansky has donated his name to this product.
Here's a link to one review.
http://www.game-over.net/review/oct99/sklansky/index.html
It's "Learning To Do The Polka" by David Sklansky. You can find it in any sleazy video store that has the 3 XXX's on the blackened out windows. If your caught stealing they give you the option of having your picture displayed behind the counter stating that you are a thief or they'll call the cops and you will be arrested.
I opted for my picture behind the counter, those damn security camaras!
I seem to recall a thread here not too long ago where several people expressed disappointment in that particular product. The general consensus (including Mr. Sklansky himself) was that this program was mainly for beginnners and for entertainment value, as I remember it.
I play alot of low limit Om/8, and since I'm a tight player, occasionally I've waited 2-3 hours between playable flops. When I have these occasional long poor runs I've taken to doing crossword puzzles in order to deter boredom. Naturally I often take time to watch how the others play, or even try to pick up tells, but I'm fairly familiar with most of the players who play at the cardroom, so studying others cannot possibly fill in the wait.
I'm curious if there are any other tight players out there who fill up their waiting time in any particular ways? There's not even a TV in the cardroom, and I've even grown tired of flirting with the waitresses... Anyone have any examples of how they pass the time?
I play with my Laptop. I've seen others play Keno.
2-3 hours between hands - wow!
I have gone a 1/2 hour to 45 min. and watch the game real close looking for anything that will give me an advantage.
They let you have a Laptop at the table? wow
Yeah, at Hollywood Park, Southern Cal.
Are you serious? Are we thinking about the same thing? The laptop I'm thinking of cannot be played publicly. WOW!!!
Laptop you dope, not Lapdance!
Uh, err, sorry I got confused but thanks anyway.
Around 10 hands/24hr period. The BIBLE because I know I can't help you playing LL's at that rate.
I'm just getting ready (in a few hours) to fly off to Sam's Town for the NL HE tourneys on Thursday. I just talked to a pal who was there on Sat for the Limit HE and he said it was like 3-6 no fold'em hold'em - has anyone played in the NL Monday tournaments? Hope it isn't like the limit that was described. I'm a better tournament player and not afraid of any competition but I'd rather go up against a bunch of good players than a bunch of "gamblers" seeing every flop 4 and 5 at a time.
rounder, I will be there for thurs pm nl tourney, and for saturday's limit tourneys> thinking about the orleans fri pm nl tourney. is it any good? Also, what is the typical structure of the Limit Tournament (structured betting with escalating blinds?), or is it Pot Limit? A review on rgp showed many people going "all in" at the last table with what appeared to be sufficient chips to call a standard bet. I am confused help
Limit is esclating blinds every 1/2 hour or so starting with 15-30 blinds or so. Goes up from there.
Don't know about the rgp - but the rules change for play with big blinds and short handed table. Hands I wouldn't play might be an all in bet in the right position.
Don't know about the Orleans. I'll be playing the satellites NL HE wed night and thurs morning. Love the single table format.
I wish you success and hope to see you at the final table thurs. night.
What's a better playing surface for a poker table -- leather/vinyl or felt?
I say leather/vinyl.
I would like to hear anyone's suggestion for books on no-limit holdem (for tourney's) excluding Super System.
Only 3 others that I know of: Ciaffone/Reuben's "Pot-Limit and No-Limit Poker", Cloutier/McEvoy's "Championship No-Limit & Pot-Limit Hold-em", and McEvoy's "Tournament Poker" has a chapter in it. If you use the concepts in the first two books to develop your own strategies, you will have a good foundation. Also, the NL section in Super/System has not dated as badly as some of the other parts of the book.
Also try Ciaffone's "Improve Your Poker". It has some helpful essays on general poker concepts and strategies that apply to no-limit. It also has a good essay on satellite play.
Beware of "Power Poker". These strategies don't work very well unless the monet is very deep. In games where people have a grand or so in front of them, you will find it very expensive to keep firing away with bluffs and semi-bluffs at medium size pots. People will generally look you up with as little as top-pair, decent kicker.
First, I don't know diddly about the inner workings of websites. Just know that I lurk on 2+2 enough to notice long waits between message downloads.
When I access a site like CNN, I notice that text appears first, and then images fill in while I'm reading that text.
Could 2+2 work similarly? I envision a button at the bottom of the page that reads: "Download entire thread." If I click on that button, the 2+2 server sends the first (or next) message in that thread, just as it does now. Then, while I'm reading that message, 2+2 sends the next message "when it has time." After reading the first message and then clicking on the next, that next message would appear on my screen almost instantaneously.
The reason this seems possible without overtaxing the server (remember I don't know squat about how this stuff works), is that the server would be doing this only when it "isn't busy" downloading someone else's request.
OK, if that isn't outlandish enough, how about...
IDEA #2: When logging onto 2+2, there's an option to download the entire Theory and Strategy Forum? We users could then scroll up and down the forum offline. Here, I envision the server creating a new file called "the whole shebang" each time a new message is posted. The request, then, would be for a single file, but a moderately long one. This download might take too long to be practical, but my thinking is that it might work since it would eliminate many smaller downloads which, taken together, might take longer for the server. Yes, I'm a little over my head here - just wondering.
JFK would have asked "Don't ask more from 2+2, instead do something for 2+2." So, pardon me if I'm asking more from an invaluable, and FREE, resource. Believe me, I greatly appreciate what's here and would use it if the time cost were even higher. Just airing some thoughts. Thanks again to all at 2+2 and to all the players who are supplying the education.
Gordy
Ok. Try the "Digestify" link at the top of each forum.
And when I get my hourly win rate above $1/hr, the time I save using DIGESTIFY can only skyrocket!
Can lurkers-breaking-out-of-the-closet nominate a Superstar? I'm taking a chance on it being legal...so here goes...I'm thinkin'....Chuck!
OK, enough brown nosin'. Now, for the nitpickin':
Haven't played with Preference choices, but notice the Forum comes up "Mixed Threaded" - which is easy to navigate. But Digestify comes up "Chronologically," totally useful, but not quite as easy to navigate. Can DIGESTIFY become "mixed threaded"? My gut says...no. Regardless, DIGESTIFY is a huge plus! Anyone else try this?
TWHBT,
Where's the best place to stay?? The best place to play HE,7CS and do they offer O/8?? The weather in early Sept.?? Probably fly into Seattle and drive approx. 1.5hr ride?? Or should I fly to Vancouver???
Thanks
Paul
the best place to stay is at skp,s place for free. " " " " play will change by next sept. weather in sept. rainy or not. you cant get there from seattle.
Chez skp is out of the question:)
Stay and play at the Holiday Inn on Broadway. Great 10-20 action. Also, a 5-10 table. Games go there from 11 am to 3 am.
You won't find any Omaha games in the legalized Casinos. One of the Social Clubs has a regular 20-40 Omaha split game. The place has been raided by cops twice in the past 6 months however so you may wish to jut stick to the regular casinos.
The Great Canadian Casino at the Renaissance Hotel has 4-8 hold 'em and also 5-10 stud. Games there start at 6pm nightly.
2.5 hours from downtown Seattle to Downtown Vancouver (lots of poker rooms in between so driving allows you the chance to check them out).
Weather in September is just perfect.
Oh, when you get to the Holiday Inn Casino, bring your seat belt as you'll need it in the 10-20 game. And if a slightly dimunitive East Indian guy raises you, get the hell out of his way as he's ALWAYS got the goods:)
"slightly dimunitive"
Is that redundant?
"East Indian"
Mohegan?
"he's ALWAYS got the goods:) "
Fire Water and Bear meat please!
Ah! Vancouver BC, such a wonderful place I've never been to.
Vince.
>"slightly dimunitive" > >Is that redundant?
I'd just like to know what the heck 'dimunitive' means? Probaby some fancy-ass lawyer term, 'cuz there's no way skp would misspell a word.
Vancouver,BC, one of the great cities on this planet.Try to go sometime!
"fancy-ass lawyer"
You spelled pansy wrong.
Vince
oops!!!
mea culpa
How's this for a newbie question:
The last game I played I had a hard time remembering the details of each hand as it was played. What is the etiquette behind discreetly taking notes on a few interesting hands on a small pad of paper? What are the table image implications?
Thanks.
People do all kinds of strange things at the table go ahead keep notes and tell them your writing a book if they ax you what your doing.
I was taking notes once in a 15-30 game when a player asked me what I was writing. I put the notepad away and told him it was a suicide note. He nodded as if he understood perfectly.
Big John,
I think if you lived next door we'd be friends.
Rounder,
If we lived next door I bet we'd be playing lots of heads up freezeouts. If you lived next door to me you would probably be afraid to go out at night. Of course, where I live we don't refer to ourselves as neighbors even if our cells are adjoining.;<)
Big John wrote:
"I put the notepad away and told him it was a suicide note."
Rounder wrote: "I think if you lived next door we'd be friends."
If you did live next door THEN it would be a suicide note. :)
The implication is that the more observant players are going to know that you are NOT there just for fun, and then adjust accordingly.
When I was a knewer player, I would carry one or two small sheets of paper and a tiny whittled-down pencil in my shirt pocket. Then I would go to the bathroom, and if I had anything memorable to write, I would sit down on the John and write--even if I only had to take a leek.
Van - that is just a bit to much informantion :-}
Rounder, You're Right!! No doubt about it, but I just couldn't think of a better way of phrasing it at five o'clock in the morning.(Note:California residents show a posting time of three hours latter than our actual time, for some reason.)
Also, I don't mean to be an anal-retentive A-hole(I really have no choice in the matter), but would you please stop using the word "to" in place of the word "too" in every one of your posts?!!! And one more, take note of "your" in place of "you're", which also drives me nuts.
Van your tooooo pedantic - you remind me is sister mary elephant my gread school teacher.
See, you did it again! Your post should read, " Van, you're tooooo pedantic. Not," your tooooooo pedantic". Now go to your room, and I'll have Big John come and tuck you in latter.
"When I was a knewer player"
Van, those who live in glass houses.....
Taking a page out of Diane's trip report book I decided to let you guys know what my trop to Sam's town tournament was like.
Wed. arrived in at 4:30pm Las Vegas well ahead of schedule after a pleasant flight - I tend to make friends on S/W air as I have loads of drink coupon books (I don't drink) so anyone in shouting distance gets "free" drinks complents of S/W rapid rewards - by 5:30 (I was already a winner as my $69.99 room was upgraded to a $300 a night suite) I was at Sam's Town tournament room looking fo r a sattelite - Barbara & Becky (who many of you know from the WSOP - were setting up the sattelites - I got the last seat 8 we were full but seat 9 was missing Barbara was callint Johnny Hale for the seat. The Gentleman Gambler from Oklahoma himself sat on my left and the cards were in the air. This table was formidable 4 very loose aggressive players a 6 of us tight aggressive. WOW! Once we wiped out the loose maniacs I took twon of them out with big hands and both times when I made a big bet Johnny said if you didn't I would have. Now there are 6 of us a few hands later down to just a few. we had fairly equal stacks and I said Johnny if you let me win this I'll buy one of your books - he reached in his briefcase and started to autograph it so I knew we had a chop. It was nice playing with a poker fall of famer and doing well.
All in all I played 5 satellites and choped 2 won 1 outright and was 3rd twice. One of the 3rds was a mess all of us remaining except one were playing in the 7pm NL HE tournament thursday night and he knew we were worried about missing the start of the tournament and didn't agree to the chop I suggested at 6:30 that where ever we were in the satellite we'd chop it at 5 to 7 o'clock. So it came down to me an evening tournament player and the gue who was not playing that night - I made a stupid play cuz of being rushed and got knocked out. Moral of this story is don;t play in a satellite starting just one hour from a tournament your scheduled to play in. I know if not rushed I would have won this one I had both players pegged and was out playing them the whole way. Other 3rd was when I ended up playing 3 handed with a married couple from New York. She was a beginner and he was a horrible player but they were lucky and weren't playing against each other. Oh well $h*t Happens.
Now for the tournaments. The 1 PM was a disaster. I got a set of kings snapped and was left with $90 which didn't last long played about 1 hour.
The 7pm tourney was a $120 buy in and one rebuy for $100.
I was in seat 10 and TJ Cloutier was in seat 9 with a French Canadian named Andre (real solid player) in seat 8. I was in a meat grinder with these two guys on my right but did OK for 2 hours until I was delt KK a weak passive in seat 5 made it $75 I made it $150 from the sb and he called all the limpers 2 or 3 folded. Flop came J 7 5 rain bow I was all in he called after a long time I thought he was going to fold he called and showed AA I put him on a big A and when he called I thought he had AJ. Heart sunk and I yelled rebuy. I built me stack back to about $1500 in a short time but the KK beat really stung. I ended up after 4 1/2 hours in the last 3 tables with blinds of $150/300 and $50 ante. Cards got real cold and with my short stack and big blinds and ultra aggressive players at this atble you'd better have it or don't open cuz it'll cost you all your chips to see the flop.
I really enjoyed the trip wish I could have scored in the 7PM tournament but I just didn't play good eneough to make the final table - some good hands would have helped - there was world class talent there and I know it toughened up my game and I will be a better player for the experience.
I'll report a few hands on the strategy board but here are a couple for the books.
An early knock out was the 3 seat his raplacement was a mid aged Asian fellow with a fair sized stack he sat down and said I'm real luck today - one of the guys near me said "well not any more" - his 3rd or 4th hand was a 7 4 6 rainbow board he went all in and TJ called his big bet with almost all his chips - next 2 cards were running 2's Asian guy had flopped a straight with a 3 5 - TJ had 66 in the hole for 6's full of 2's - Asian guy gets his $600 rebuy and the very next hand flops a nut flush and got beat by the French Canadian who also picked up a full house on the river. Two real bad beats in a row - wow I could feel for that guy.
Rounder,
Bravo on your report. Please continue. I know you need all your concentration for the events but I hope writing about your experience helps relax you. It is very interesting to me.
I am expecting to read your name in Card Player, champ!
Vince.
Rounder- Thanks for posting trip report. I love to read these, that's why I visit the Exchange primarily. I want to keep up to date on what is going on in the world of poker when I am stuck here in Wisconsin.
BTW--how were you lucky enough to get upgraded to suite? Lack of available standard rooms? Do you also give casino action in pit? Just wondering. I spent lots of time in hotels and would like to know of any edge available to get a better room for the many days I am away from home....natuarally without paying for them.
Satellites were certainly profitable for you. Congratulations.
Diane from Green Bay
Diand,
I spent the last 11 years 1988 to 1998 in PoDunk Indiana running my resort - playing poker with customers and bi weekly visits to Gary /Hammond boats. So I know what it's like to be isolated - Been to Green Bay too as a salmon fisherman so I know what your talking about.
I quit playing pit games about 3 years ago when I began playing poker seriously.
It is big hotel and airline policy (usually) to upgrade customers but you usually have to ask so I ask "How many revenue passangers in 1st class" (usually most of 1st class is airline staff riding for free) this will sometimes get you an upgrade also in Hotels specially when their very busy will sometimes give you a better room if you ask. With regard to Sam's I missed the tournament rate special as they only put aside 150 rooms for the palyers so they charged me full price so I talked with reservations person (real nice) and asked to speak to a supervisor to try to worm a cheaper room they couldn't promise anything but when I arrived they had upgraded me. So I don't know if it was cuz I tried to get the reduced rate or they just ran out of regular rooms.
Like anything else in life if you don't ask you don't get.
BTW this almost always works with rental cars, reserve the cheapest car in the fleet and ask for the upgrade - real nice - after making small talk with the person behind the desk and it almost always works actually I can't think of one time in all the rentals I've made where it didn't.
I love freebees but you never get them unless your very nice and polite.
".... unless your very nice and polite."
I can see we all can a learn a lot more from Rounder than just poker strategy.
Vince
Rounder- Thanks for posting trip report. I love to read these, that's why I visit the Exchange primarily. I want to keep up to date on what is going on in the world of poker when I am stuck here in Wisconsin.
BTW--how were you lucky enough to get upgraded to suite? Lack of available standard rooms? Do you also give casino action in pit? Just wondering. I spent lots of time in hotels and would like to know of any edge available to get a better room for the many days I am away from home....natuarally without paying for them.
Satellites were certainly profitable for you. Congratulations.
Diane from Green Bay
It is probably just my suspicious nature, but I've been thinking for sometime now that Rick's student must be a young, good-looking woman. Has anybody else noticed how carefully he has omitted any reference such as a pronoun which would disclose gender?
BTW, if there is a Mrs. Nebiolo who sometimes reads this forum, I want to state right now, for the record, that though I am an attorney specializing in divorce law this is not an offer of services nor a solicitation of same.
So, Rick, are my suspicions correct or not? Inquiring minds want to know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rick has, in at least one message, indicated that his student does match this description. And, yes, I had the same suspicion before he mentioned it.
Big John,
As rjk noted, I've mentioned that she is a woman in a post or two, but I generally avoid mentioning gender, as I tend to be "PC". Well, then again maybe I am not politically correct. For example, my idea of diversity (a classic subject for those who wish to be thought of as PC) would be the following: Have an associate professor of liberal arts at any Ivy League university dare to admit to being a conservative or Republican (or even worse, voting for Ronald Reagon) and then go on to get tenure. But I digress.
Back to poker. I agree with Mason Malmuth that a woman has to play very well to stand a chance in poker, just like anyone else. However, we both thought Adbul's deleted post (the one with the "P" word in reference to the male sexual organ) regarding the advantages of the hyper-aggressive woman in poker was also correct. My student is definitely hyper-aggressive and talented. Too bad she wastes so much time playing Omaha H/L where aggression is almost completely wasted. Today she left a very good 6/12 Holdem game to play in a run of the mill 6/12 Omaha game (BTW, she is consistently beating holdem from 6/12 to 10/20 since starting holdem several months ago). Old habits of Omaholics are hard to break.
Let's see what other questions have I been avoiding. She is probably quite a bit younger then me, but then again I'm sort of average in age. She keeps her exact age a more closely guarded secret then the inner workings of nuclear weapon designs at Los Alamos, but she tells me that this is a woman's prerogative.
Good looking? I would say she is absolutely beautiful, but what is wrong with that? The most important thing is she is very sweet and an eager student and has an apple or a snack for the teacher every lesson.
Regarding solicitation for your services, I'll pass your email on to my wife in case she needs it. She used to prop at the Normandie before her current medical difficulties so she knows all about poker players. Anyway, right now she is very grateful for the extra income my student provides.
One caveat; during my first divorce in 1984 my ex and I were able to split all our possessions before ever contacting a lawyer. We did spend about $200 bucks making sure some the divorce paperwork was done right. I don't know if ray zee is married, but assuming he is he must have more money than me and there is a woman on the forum asking to have his baby. Maybe you should chase that ambulance ;-).
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
I certainly hope you didn't infer from my post that I had any thoughts that you were taking improper advantage of your student. I was just somewhat intrigued by your clever omission of any gender specifying pronouns. BTW, how can you possibly charge this beautiful young woman for lessons? I, myself, can hardly bear to pocket anything more than 100% of all monies won by any students under my tutelage. You just have to learn to be more generous in sharing your vast reservoir of poker knowledge. By taking only their winnings you are actually teaching them at no cost to themselves. What could be more fair?
It pains me to hear that you had a prior divorce in which you took upon yourself the duties of a qualified attorney. I know you wouldn't like it if players usurped the role of floorman at Hollywood Park and put your livlihood in jeopardy. I look forward to representing you in the very near future. :<)
Hmmmm, I think I have played with her at HP. 5'0 tall, 103 lbs more or less, very long gorgeous dark hair with some highlights, very very nice legs, very well-endowed in the right places, very well mannered but definitely very aggressive with always a huge stack of chips in front of her. Do you think she is the one? I could be wrong though.
As you can tell, if you made it this far, the forum has been reorganized somewhat. Taking suggestions from several of you I've changed things so that the first page you come to is not a forum page. Hopefully this will reduce the number of posts to the wrong forum. I've also subdivided the old poker forum into three new forums: Hold'em, Other Poker Games, and Tournaments. Finally, the exchange has been renamed to be "other topics".
Please try to post to the correct forum. We reserve the right to move posts if necessary.
Comments to me please. Thanks,
Chuck
Very nice! Good job. I think you used the best of the recent suggestions.
No more slogging thru 170 new daily messages to read up on my main interest---Hold'em. Also, interesting threads won't be "buried" so fast. Another benefit will occur when I do want to read up on another topic (Omaha/8 etc)--- those threads will be more together.
Can insults about Vince still be posted on all 5 forums?
Post deleted at author's request.
Badger, sorry you feel that way. We'll go with this for a while and see what happens.
However, your idea for a forum to discuss really important strategies and theories is a good one which I had already addressed (thanks to David Sklansky) prior to seeing your message.
Chuck
I was wondering. what is the other poker games forum for - I didn't know there was anything BUT hole'em :-)
Wow...?! Finally I find a place to post this.
I think the key to the internet is simplicity something this (these) forum(s) just lost.
And to think you had people who couldn't find the Exchange Forum. What are they ever going to do now?
P.S. YACK, maybe. A bad business decision, definetely. My opinion.
Berya,
I would have to disagree. So far it seems existing posters seem to be split fairly evenly. In general, any change is usually resisted by most people due to human nature. Given this even split, I would say it has been accepted quite well.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
I'm sure the existing posters will find their way around.
But what about new potential posters?
Badger,
You done said it all! Chuck, you guys didn't think this one out. If it ain't broke don't fix it! There was only one suggestion if I remeber correctly about changing the forum. and boom it happened. Well I have been particapting in this forum for quite a while now. When I first started there were only a hand ful of contributors. Now there a re many. They came partly I believe because of the format. Besides if they didn't want to rad a particular person, like me, or were only interested in one subject they could just click on the threads they liked. Now...we'll see.
Vince
This forum split is a great improvement. Now if Vince LeBore wants to clutter up the forums with his nonsensicle ramblings he wil have to go to 6 different places to do it. That should even slow him down. Nice work. Very forward thinking.
HAHAHA. i get it. le "bore". HAHAHA. you mean vince is boring. HAHA HAHA. you crack me up.
scott
Chuck,
I didn't like the idea of splitting the forum at first but as I navigate around I am liking it a lot more than I thought I would. Kind of makes me feel like I feel when I navigate around in Yahoo, sort of a cyberspace wonderland of poker. I think that these changes are going to work out well.
Tom Haley
Thanks Chuck for using all my ideas on this Forum Reorganization and any other help you need just let me know and keep those CHECKS coming especially the ones where you cross out "Ray Zee's" name.
Paul
I like the idea, but I'd make the break-downs a little different. Why not break it down by game? HE, Stud, Stud/8, Razz, Omaha, and O/8 would be good places to start. Also, you might want to have a general strategy forum like Gary suggests, along with tournament forum that is already there. Also, it might be a nice idea to have the option to automatically cross-post to two or more forums if the topic fits.
Aces, Scottro
Scottro,
Heck, the index for the "Razz Forum" could take a year to fill one frame. I like "Other Poker Games" since in total that forum probably won't get as much use as the holdem forum.
Anyway, I think the reorginazation is great but like anything it may need some tweeking. Thank's Chuck!
Regards,
Rick
Great job with the forum split!
The breakdown appropriately groups the areas of interest. Now, if I want to find threads on 7CS or Draw I know exactly where to go. I don't have to filter through all those darn Tournament threads (not that they don't have merit, I just don't do tournaments quite yet).
I would rename "Other Topics" as "Exchange". So old habits die hard.
Thanks.
.
i was online when it happened and it was trippy. the color changed, and i was wondering why the color changed. maybe i was seeing things. then i refreshed the page and was thrown to some actual (non-forum) homepage. i skimmed it and saw a nice letter from jessica. it made me feel happy. then i went to the forum (still theory and stratgey) but it didn't say 'welcome, scott'. it just said 'welcome'. it made me feel sad. then i noticed that the exchange was now called other topics. i went there and it still knew who i was. i felt a little better. then i went back to the main forum and explained what odds were so that it would recognize me. then i saw the other forums. but where is the superstar forum? and hux's forum? and all the other great ideas that vince (although louie can have great ideas) had? i hope this solves the speed problems everyone was complaining about.
wow. what a pointless message.
scott
it was trippy
the color changed
i was seeing things
i... was thrown to some actual (non-forum)
i... saw... jessica
it made me feel happy.
it made me feel sad
speed
wow.
I grooved on it too.
Thought I was on the "ACID" FORUM for a minute.
Keep Trippin Man
Hi everybody I'm George Feeny -- the missing Feeny brother. I was kicked out of the house at the age of 11. Brothers John and Paul were still nursing and they just needed the room. Being on my own from such an early age has made me wise beyond my years. Brothers John and Paul (and our other brother that was adopted out -- Ringo) had a lot of catching up to do but just seem to have missed the boat somewhere. It's just too bad they couldn't find real jobs instead of sitting around playing poker all day long. Since I don't wish to be bothered by my two inferior siblings I am posting semi-anonymously. I would rather not have them constantly dun me for money.
If you can't tell by their ramblings the state of their mental acuity then keep reading because they will eventually let the entire world know how much difference it makes to be bottle fed instead of, well, you know. Here's to Paul and John. Yeah, yeah, yeah. (Please God don't let them find me.)
"The BIBLE" I knew by mentioning this I would draw you out like a runner, runner. Are you still jenuflecting on a regular basis. Aces Baby Your Aces!!!!!!!!!
Paul Is Buried
It's an interesting setup alright.
Turn on your cell.
I was thinking about diving in. Has anyone givin it a go? Anything I should know about?
Thanks,
Chris
i played with it a little bit. i had to say i was 21, so i don't think i'll play for real money. the first time i logged on i said i wasn't 21 and it said i couldn't play. so i just went back and checked the box and i was in. crack security. the games are change in temperment quickly. it goes from moderate to very loose and from rather passive to very aggressive. i see a lot of preflop caps and limp-reraises. the games are super easy to beat. i can even beat the omaha high games and i have never played omaha high before. my games, he and 7cs, are too easy to be fun for play money. the games themselves are very slow. i always play 2 at once, and even that is too slow. i know nothing about security issues or anything. i am playing for points.
scott
I tried it and also read the Archive.
http://www.twoplustwo.com/cgi-bin/excharch1.pl?read=2572
Your right they haven't started Real money games yet. I won a little, and the games were really slow! I don't know if its because of the program or the people.
Has anyone heard of any Collution like activities on any On-Line poker game yet. I'm sure that its happened somewhere.
Later, CV
Chuck, Mason, David,
I was recently at a Las Vegas tournament and wondered if I was playing with 2+2 posters but I didn't know and surely didn't want to go around asking. A lot of BB have photo galleries where posters can submit their pics - just a thought. I'd be happy to send my photo titled "big and ugly" if you decide to go that route.
Rounder you finally got the best suggestion of the year. i would love to put faces on the names of our posters.
Might cut into your baby production with competition but in your case you would grow with it and raise everyone out!!!!
Crazy Paul
Excellent idea... I love it
You know when Badger talks everyone listens.
What a great idea! Chuck W, can we do this?
I'll be one of the first.
Dick
i like this idea, too. can it be set up? how would we send our pictures?
scott
Has anyone played in their poker room? I'm staying there tomorrow night, and their web page says they have a poker room, but no details.
Thanks,
Rich
A well run card room. Mandalay has 1-4-8-8 HE and sometimes spreads 6/12 HE. 6/12 mostly on weekends. The room also spreads 1-5 stud. Usually action games. Nice jackpots for any 4 of a kind or better using both hole cards. Rakes are 10% up to $3 at HE and 10% up to $5 at stud. The room has high ceilings and serves Starbucks coffee.
Does anybody know where I can find how many players entered the Foxwoods tournaments last year and what the prize money was. I found it for Taj Mahal, but can not find it for Foxwoods.
Thanks in advance.
UNFORTUNATELY IT LOOKS AS IF THEY HAVE REMOVED FROM THEIR SITE, THEY HAD IT UP AND RUNNING A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO
The only numbers I know for sure are the $500. limit HE event last year. There were about 140+ entries, for a little more than $70K in prize money.
Generally speaking, the fields were bigger at FW last year than at AC, so the prize pools were only somewhat smaller (due to the higher entry fees at AC). IMO, the fields at FW are very soft, while I heard that the fields were much tougher at AC. Of course, it might be easier to win against 70 marginal to great players than against 150 players, 50 of whom are marginal to great, but the EV or ROI should be higher in the latter case.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I agree with Greg that Foxwoods is the more attractive tournament for me. Let the big names go to AC, Foxwoods is beautiful and the two prior years I went both live action and tournaments were beatable for a solid player.
I split/won satellites and did very well in live action. I hope to repeat that + cash in the first Limit Holdem Event this year.
Diane will be at Foxwoods from 11/26 until 12/1. I have heard lots of good things about Kathy Raymond and Mike Ward and am interested in seeing the changes since my last visit. And yes........I will do a trip report if anyone wants.
Diane from Green Bay
You must do a trip report. Good luck and win some big prize money.
Huh?
Post deleted at author's request.
Ok.
Could you make the frames on the left with the links NARROWER so that when you write a post you don't have to scroll left to right to read what you've written. In other words the frame on the right is too small.
Ditto!!!!!!!!
This is really minor, but when you post a message in one of these forums and then click "Refresh" to check it posted, it takes you back to the front page. Can you fix this to save me one whole additional mouse click :-) ?
Andy.
I've made some minor cosmetic changes that may help this situation. There is only so much I can do without making the left column useless.
Chuck
Some months ago someone on the forum passed along this suggestion. I think it was Vince, but I'm not sure.
Anyway, the suggestion was to create bookmarks to the various forums using the following addresses. This will give you fullscreen viewing. I find it much more convenient.
http://www.twoplustwo.com/cgi-bin/holdem.pl
http://www.twoplustwo.com/cgi-bin/genpok.pl
http://www.twoplustwo.com/cgi-bin/otherp.pl
http://www.twoplustwo.com/cgi-bin/tourn.pl
http://www.twoplustwo.com/cgi-bin/othergames.pl
http://www.twoplustwo.com/cgi-bin/exchange.pl
I also set up my preferences to show only the last week of messages and have them listed in Chronologically, Reversed order. This keeps all the new messages at the top. Messages don't get buried so easily. However, it breaks up threads which some may find too much of a trade off. Being able to use the 'In Response To' and 'Responses' links to navigate thru a thread offsets that problem sufficiently for me.
rjk,
That wasn't Vince. That was me. Vince merely thanked my mother, father, brother, birthplace and I think dog in the post below it in some sort of weird Boston/Italian thanking dialect. As usual, the colorful, "superstar" types get all the glory while we mere mortals battle away in the trenches :-).
Anyway, I stumbled upon an even easier way using MS IE5. When at the page of the forum you want to make a favorite (with the left frame still visible), click your right mouse and select Open Frame In New Window. This will get you a full screen view. You can then make it a favorite in the normal fashion. Using the right mouse you can also select "Send To" and put a shortcut icon on your desktop. In both cases you may want to rename the shortcut/favorite.
Regards,
Rick
Damn, sorry Rick... I thought it was either you or Vince. I guess I remembered it backwards... and inadvertantly gave a "superstar" more credit than he deserves.
rjk,
Before he does it himself, let me save Vince the trouble and tell you: IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO GIVE A *SUPERSTAR* MORE CREDIT THAN HE DESERVES.
lol
Of course this is true... for a *real* SUPERSTAR.
John Paul writes: "...so that when you write a post you don't have to scroll left to right to read what you've written."
I've never had this problem. Could it be caused by the specific browser or its settings (preferences)?
I didn't have this problem until they changed the format. I don't have the problem any longer however, it seems to have been fixed. Thank you.
The problem has to do with screen width. If you have a smaller screen then it is possible that the "message" box will scroll of to one side or the other.
I believe I have fixed the problem for most people by
1. Shrinking the left column width as much as possible (without forcing it to scroll...I hope!)
2. Reduced very slightly the width of the message box.
One of the problems of setting up formats for the web is that Mac's and Windows machines display things somewhat differently (having to do with a different number of pixels to the inch). I generally work with a Mac and don't see the results of any changes on a Windows system until later.
The other day while playing cards, some guy who just couldn't lose was asked, " How do you keep winning pot after pot?". He turned towards the lady who asked the question and jokingly said something like, " I can read people's auras". Well, this started a few people talking, and at one point the lady started getting a little pissed. She felt that they were dismissing "the fact that auras really do exist", to use her wording.
The discussion reminded me of something. Back in the mid-1970's Leonard Nimoy hosted some weekly show(I forget the name?)where they investigated stuff like "The Bermuda Triangle", or " Voodoo, and Witchcraft", and "extraterrestrials". Well, one show touched on the topic of "auras". Some guy had what looked like an ultraviolet light(I forget the special name of the light, and the inventor's name?). They put the light on different objects, like a leaf that had a portion of itself cut away. And when under this light, the leaf appeared to have what looked like an energy field surrounding it, which also filled in the missing portion of the leaf. And by the end of the show, it seemed like they had provided confirmation that auras really do exist. I was about 10 or 11 years old at that time, and was impressed with the possibility that such things might exist, hence the popularity of the show.
Now back to the presant. This lady at the poker table looked about my age, so I asked her if she had seen the show. She said yes, and she seemed relieved that someone at the table was going to help defend her point of view. I excused myself from the table, because I just didn't have the heart to tell her that there is absolutely No evidence that would suggest the exsistance of auras. And that the only thing the special light was showing us was the heat emanating from whatever you choose to illuminate. That's right, heat. You can take something like a rock that is cool, and put it under the special light, and it won't show the magical energy field surrounding the rock. But if you put the same rock in an oven, and heat it up, the rock will appear to have what looks like an aura when put under the light again. I saw it done in a film in a physics class I took in college. I kinda felt like a dope, because I had taken it for granted that auras did exist because of this silly 70's T.V. show.
Actually I am very good at reading other players so good I sometimes think I have ESP - but I put it down to astute observation and a logical mind.
But last year when my best friend died suddenly in Canada I woke up cold and clamy and couldn't get back to sleep.
I found out the next morning my life long pal had died at about the same time I woke up.
These kind of things have happened to me all my life.
In the mid 80's in England I had a dream about a cheap Hurdler named Sicillian (I am Sicillian) winning a race. In the morning went down to the betting shop and found a horse running called Sicillian Gold running it was trained by Martin Fife (if I remember correctly) a good trainer - anyway the short story is I put 20 pounds on the nag and he won going away at 33-1.
Wish I could dream like that every night.
Come to think of it, it might have been a special form of photography, rather than a special type of lighting. Even though it was some time ago, I'm sure there is someone out there who knows the specifics.
Thanks, Martin D
It was known as "Kirlian Photograpy" It worked like this. A plate of glass with a transparent layer of gold was charged to a high voltage. Then the "Subject" was placed on the glass and photographed in the dark. The "Phantom Leaf Effect" is what one poster refers to where a leaf is cut in half after the original photo and a complete "aura" shows up. (both halves of the leaf) Seems to me all that really happens is some of the leaf's material fused with the gold layer during the original photo. And the whole thing is a lot of fuss over electrostatic discharge. I mean come on, If I connect you to a generator of sufficient power I'm sure you'd "glow" too. Now I suppose you could define "aura" as "the diffraction of light caused by boundry layer heating effects of the air surrounding warm objects" and you could then say an aura exists. And to the extent that you could show it, it might give clues to health as would a temprature scan. For example, maybe the area over your spleen normally should be 89 degrees and if it drops, your spleen is in trouble. Seems a bit unreliable in an age of MRI scanning. Now about those aliens at the Bellagio. [laugh]
My name is Julio, so exnay on the Alienay at the Bellagionay, or I may lose my jobnay and get sent backnay to you know wherenay.
Julio,
No racial slur was intended...I meant UFO type aliens! You know, Roswell and all that stuff. Chances are its all a bluff. The airforce just wants us to think they are hiding aliens so that we don't notice missle projects or something.
A few months ago I mentioned that I was trying out the independent browser Opera. After a 30 day free trial (it does not have to be 30 consecutive days), I decided to fork over the $35 dollars and purchase it.
Although not perfect, it is very lean, stable, and loads itself and messages much faster, especially 2+2 messages. You can also toggle images without going to a settings menu buried deep within the menus.
Anyway, the web site is http://www.opera.com. Try it for thirty days and decide for yourself.
Regards,
Rick
Since the new format my system seems to hang up while I'm in 2+2 - is it just me or the recent power outages we've had.
I haven't noticed any problem since the format change. The 2+2 design is so much easier to use than RGP, that it's a pleasure to browse. Perhaps the "hang up" (delay?) problem is due to heavy traffic during the time of day you have been browsing this site. Maybe your disk drive needs defragmenting? Good luck, and keep up those good posts...
Doc did all that and still hangs up in the HE forum.
Everything else seems ok.
I don't understand your reply. I believe there is another "Doc" who posts on 2+2. If so, we could add surname initials. I don't play much hold'em.
Glad you like it. Rick! I think it was me who recomended it?! I've been using it for about a year now and really like it. Good luck!!
John
JJ,
One nice feature is the ease and speed when keeping multiple web windows on screen or immediately available. With the new "digestify" function of 2+2, I can read posts in mass and then respond to those I want to with none of the lag in response or reloading needed in MS IE5. I also love the ability to toggle images directly from the front page.
I'll still use IE5 for web sites that involve a lot of the latest plug ins but all my favorite text based sites are transfered to the Opera Hotlist.
Regards,
Rick
Checked out the Caro tape 2 and you don't look Italian or like a dork.
:-)
In 1961, I took a one day class in cryptography where they discussed only the most rudimentary of tradecraft. While I found it interesting, I've never been able to put any of it to use. Until tonight.
P.S. To my student with the very very nice legs, I too hope you are reading this.
i never took a course and i was not alive 40 years ago, but i also hope the student with very very nice legs reads my posts.
scott
Although I personally don't enjoy the game myself, my father is an avid video poker player. What books can I recommend to him?
Try contacting Jazbo Burns over on RGP. I think he has the correct playing strategies for a number of +EV machines. Sorry, I don't know his email address.
See the Favorite Links section where Frome and Paymar's web pages are given. When I was more of a blackjack player, many of the posters on Stanford Wong's blackjack web page discussed video poker in the other games section. From what I remember Frome and Paymar are the guru's of video poker.
My wife told me that a fellow on the show recently took the 50/50 option at the $125K level. He had no idea what the answer was to the question. As such, he decided to take home the 64k rather than gambling on the 50/50 proposition to go for the 125K. had he got the question wrong, he was still guaranteed 32K.
Gaffe? or do "pot odds" not apply in a one time event?
I've had the same thought while watching that show! I think I would calculate out pot odds. There is a 50% chance you would lose $32,000, and a 50% you would win $61,000. A guess has a positive expectation of $29,000. But does this count for a one time event, as you asked? I don't know. I don't think it would matter.
A similar consideration might be necessary on the Fox version, where you are given a $10,000 guaranteed incentive to challenge another player for double or nothing.
skp - you have to understand these contestants are NORMAL people not deck heads like us - the 64K is a lot of money to people who have NORMAL lives.
I knew the answer was "tar baby" if it's the one I'm thinking of but I have this porno I mean photographic mind thing and answer obscure questions like that and have no idea where I got the knowledge.
I would have taken the $$$ if I had no Idea wouldn't you?
I have got bills to play just like the next guy. But I would go for it without a doubt. I mean, when these guys sign up or whatever it is they have to do to get on the show, they certainly have no grandiose expectations of making any money at all. Anything they win is a "bonus" so to speak. In any event, the chap is gonna go home with 32k so why not take the risk when the "pot odds" are so much in his favour.
The above I say should be how almost everyone should view this situation. Of course, there may be the odd guy who REALLY needs the 64k and 32k just won't do (who knows, maybe his wife needs some medical treatment which will cost 50K or whatever). In that case, one can't blame the guy for taking the 64k. But barring these exceptional circumstances, copping out at this juncture is a mathematical catastrophe.
I don't think pot odds apply so well in a 1 time event, as you suggest.
However, I would have gone for the guess in a flash.
This guy didn't just give up a shot at 125K, he gave up a shot at 1 million. If he guesses right here, he gets to see the next question. If he knows that answer, he can safely move up to 250K, etc.
The loss of 32K would be significant, but in a few years no one would no the difference between 32K and 64K. Yet, if I go on to win a million, everything may change.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Good point. I forgot about the additional incentive that a guess keeps your chances for a million alive.
I think that this question might go more towards someone's inner make-up: are they risk-taking or risk-averse.
Good point. I was analyzing it as a gamble of 32k to make 61k on a 50/50 proposition. In fact, the reward is potentially much greater. Plus, what the hell, I would look at it as gambling with Regis' money - not mine. If I lose, well I am sure that I will get over it. But not taking the chance would probably keep me up at nights for months.
I say "gong" to this chap's decision.
Wouldn't that be the call.
A million is a lot of money but 64K is all the money in the world if you never had that kind of money.
These people have bills and college to pay for.
It is hard to gamble with your family's future.
Yes, this is a terrible error, as you not only lose the 50/50 at 125K, but also chances at higher $. Of course, the taxes may change things, but I imagine at this large an amount, they are roughly a constant % and thus not a factor. Why should pot odds not matter in a one time event?
You see some awful game strategy on tv game shows in general - it makes sports coaches look like math wizards...
what about those geniuses on the price is right who so cleverly pick $1 more than some other guess? i wouldn't want to run into them at the poker table.
scott
Seems they understand the concept of positional advantage.
well, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, so...
taking shot is 32k/2 + 128k/2 = 80k, here we have only 1.25 in the bush, take the money.
BUT
if he hits it he has (assume 50%) chance on later streets --
32k/2 +.5(128k +.5( 256k +.5(512k + .5(1024k) ) ) ),
or 4 birds in bush! GUESS!!!
hope that helps.
brad
I agree with the others. In my words....
1. There are huge implied odds on future betting rounds because it is quite possible the contestant will know those answers and not have to gamble at all.
2. The problem they face however is the basic micro economic factor of decreasing marginal utility. They at least feel that the next 32K is worth a lot more then then pot equity they are giving up by stopping.
Another thing I find kind of amazing is that for all the shows I have seen ( 7 or 8 ) not a single contestant has lost or signifigantly gambled. They always seem to know when to stop when there is any sort of risk.
I would definitely gamble on 50/50 propositions with hopefully better chances on the future questions up to about 500K. The first 500K is worth a lot more to me then the second.
D.
I'm going to watch this for the second time in ten minutes. Forget the math mistakes. They even make those on Jeopardy (Ciaffone even made this part of an article a month or so ago). I just can't believe the answers these people get wrong.
I'd rant on but I want to make a cocktail before the show. If I'm not too aggravated thinking these people may actually make money maybe I'll report back later.
Regards :-),
Rick
As an aside, we have this in England now (it may be the #1 rated show at the moment I'm not sure) and the questions from 64K up are _really_ hard. The law of diminishing returns cuts in a little but I think the expectation of being able to correctly answer the following questions plays a big part. Still, even if you're struggling on the questions, I'd take a shot in this spot. As someone pointed out though, most people are remarkably risk averse and I've rarely seen anyone take a real guess. Not surprisingly no-one has even won 500K in five series - how often does someone go all the way in the US ?
Andy.
I don't think anyone had topped 1/4 mil yet -
Andy is my fav. UK show still on "question of sport"?
We get BBC America on my Illinois cable and I get to watch "Ground Force" and my fav. "Eastenders" - I lived in the UK most of the 80's - in Maidenhead Berks. My offices were in Slough. We will be visiting again soon I hope for Cheltenham Gold Cup.
I have fond memories of the Cheltenham Festivals whilst I was living there as a matter of fact my wife will dump my ashes there after I play my last hand.
I had a huge bet on Dawn Run in the Gold Cup and cried like a baby when Jonjo brought her home after hitting the last to beat Wayward Lad by a length. I also cried like a baby when she died in France.
I love British Hosre racing - still have an internet account with a British bookie.
Cheers - your, septic china (cockney rhyming slang) if you need a translation let me know
TV and Horse Racing being two of my least favourite things (in a long list to be fair) I can't help you too much there :-). Did you make it over to England to play like you were planning to ?
Andy.
No - moved plans to March.
Thanks anyway,
Given: Yes I agree that giving up the 50-50 instead of guessing to double up you money at the risk of going back to 32K is a "mathamatical catastrophe" and taking the shot is +EV.
But I think it is the right choice.
How often have we seen tournament style posts where one has a good hand, much better than marginal, positive EV hand. BUT it is not the hand to go all in with.
In the Millionaire game the contestant is going all in and while yes he is giving up EV there are some hands that while they are a positive EV do not justify going all in with.
I see it not just as a matter of plus or minus EV but also one of bankroll management.
Occasionaly lottery prize amounts exceed the odds of you winning, you have just obtained +ev on the lottery. How many of you have risked everything you had to on tickets. Is failing to do so a mathamatical catastrophe?
It goes to the heart of the pot odds theory.
I have been saying it is an excuse for a bad play as there is so much more to the calculation than the size of the pot.
I get criticized here for dumping a long shot hand that is not sure to win IF I hit and the only justification used for the criticizm is the pot is big.
My point is there is so much more to consider in a poker hand that pot size is just one of them and not the most important one for me.
I don't but lottery tickets when the pool is over 41 mil the odds for a win and I don't play long shot hands eigther.
"How often have we seen tournament style posts where one has a good hand, much better than marginal, positive EV hand. BUT it is not the hand to go all in with."
IMO, this is not a valid analogy. In the tournament, you fold because you think you can wait for a better situation where you will have a more positive Ev hand than the one you currenly have. If the fellow on the Regis show "folds", he is out of the tournament. He will not ever have a more positive EV "hand" so to speak.
Unless there is a particular compelling reason that this man needs 64K (*and 32k just won't do*), he errred. This is particularly evident when you take into account the points made by Fossil in his post.
"Occasionally lottery prize amounts exceed the odds of you winning, you have just obtained +ev on the lottery. How many of you have risked everything you had to on tickets. Is failing to do so a mathamatical catastrophe?"
Really? I can't imagine this scenario (although I will admit I have never bought a lottery ticket so I don't know). Once again, the analogy is not valid as the fellow on Regis is not risking "everything he had". In fact, he had nothing when he came on the show. If he gets the question wrong, he still goes home with 32k. Bottom line is that he failed to risk 32k for a shot at 61K (or more...maybe much much more) on a 50/50 proposition. Gong!
I can see that I am a little late to this thread as I saw the show for the first time this week. Actually it is a matter of maximizing the utility of cosumption rather than maximizing EV. I believe that this is more or less what your alluding to. The utility of a dollar of wealth decreases as the level of a person's wealth rises. Even though the bet may be positive EV an individual may not take the bet because the decline in utility in losing the bet has a greater magnitude than the utility of winning the bet. If a person on the show has $125,000 and has a 50-50 chance to win $125,000 or lose $93,000 a straight EV calculation says that the person should take the bet. However if the utility of consumption rises by .12 if the player wins and drops by .2 if the player loses the player should not take the bet. Of course the chance of winning $1,000,000 has to be factored in but I would hazard a guess that as the contestant gets closer to $1,000,000 the magnitude of the drop in utility starts to overwelhm the gain in magnitude of utility in answering the question.
"If a person on the show has $125,000 and has a 50-50 chance to win $125,000 or lose $93,000 a straight EV calculation says that the person should take the bet. However if the utility of consumption rises by .12 if the player wins and drops by .2 if the player loses the player should not take the bet."
I agree with this analysis and would suggest that most people would be correct in taking the money if they were at the $250,000 question. There, the choices are:
1. Stop and take the 125K
2. Guess corrrectly and win 250K
3. Guess incorrectly and win 32K (i.e. 93k difference from option no.1).
However, our hero here was at the 125K question. There, the choices are:
1. Stop and take the 64K
2. Guess correctly and win 125k
3. Guess incorrectly and win 32K (i.e 32K difference from option No.1).
I would say that the utility theory you speak of at this level is not enough to override the EV you give up by chooosing option No.1. This applies to the majority of the population. To some, the difference between winning "just" 32K or taking home 64K may mean the world but I suspect that this applies to very few people. Those people should of course apply the utility theory and take the 64K.
Is it just me or is Phil Hellmuth's "Hand of the Week," and "High-Limit Results" usually depressing? He only talks about big hands and tournaments that he loses. I want to hear about stuff he wins. I want to believe that a really good poker player can make a lot money. Sometimes he comes across as just a gambler. I have to admit that that is a bit dissappointing.
I have to agree. I finally have come to the conclusion that Phil Hellmuth is a great tournament player but when it comes to ring games he doesn't do very well. This is just my opinion of what I have read about him and what I have heard. I think his aggressive style in touranment strategy does very well in the tournament scene. Any other opinions.
I think the term is "WAS" he has written how he is in the wilderness and I just stopped reading his hands of the week - from 10 years ago - his column is depressing and I just stopped reading it.
One thing about Phil Helmuth is that there is a certain honesty about him that you don't see in many of the other tournament players. Perhaps that's why his column appears depressing since he is just being truthful.
I also agree that his highly aggressive style just happened to be right for tournaments, but it is also very wrong for many ring games. Furthermore, now that people know to call him down more I suspect that his tournament future won't be as successful as his tournament past. Time will tell to see if I am right.
I think that Phil's primary problem is that he is struck stupid by the "heat of the moment". He wants to win so badly that he allows almost nothing to stand in his way. I certainly don't think he is normally a bad or dishonest person, just that he has a "win at any cost" competitive nature. I can see how he could be very "juicy" in ring games from have been around him at tournaments. In my opinion, John Bonetti is also "overripe" in a ring game. I've played with him several times in NL games and watched him take some hefty whippings. I don't see how he could possibly make a living playing non-tournament poker. There, now I feel better for having had my say.
I read Phil's write up of several days he spent playing in L.A. I got the impression he may sacrifice some earn to his love of competition. e.g., he played Tony Dee heads-up at some very high limit. Even if I played at those limits, this is something I doubt I would ever do. From what I've heard I would expect Tony D. to be *very* aggressive and tricky, with a great deal of heads-up experience under his belt. I'd pass on that, even though I do like heads-up play and am not always as game selective as I could be. But I suspect Hellmuth likes the competition enough to play in situations where he may have little or no edge. And that's his prerogative. I know little about his play; that's just what struck me in reading his report. I do like his honesty. Maybe Phil will read this thread and comment. (Everyone lurks here from time to time you know.) .
When Phil is on he's unbeatable in hold 'em tourneys; however, for every one he's won there's three where he had a big stack late, lost one hand, then went on tilt and dusted off everything in short order. He's ultra-competitive with a huge inferiority complex. He's a terrible ring game player. Mason is right about his honesty; brutally so in regards to his shortcomings. He's a great family man, and nice guy away from the table. BTW Big Al is simply the nicest guy I've played against.
I love reading his high-limit results. It's mes-merizing to read about him having a $70,000 winning or losing session in some 400-800 game at The Bike.I just wish he would update more often than once every two months.
Victor Niederhoffer, in his book The Education of a Speculator, says that when you hear George Soros talk about his trades, he sounds like he always loses and never wins. But we all know that Soros is a winner, having made billions in personal income from running the Quantum Fund. Maybe, it's the same with Hellmuth... I'm just speculating here. Losers tend to brag about their winnings while winners just stay silent because they really have nothing to prove.
Victor Niederhoffer had a spectacular, and very public, meltdown in the fund he managed about three months after his book was released. Since that time I've heard nothing concerning him. Anyone have more recent information?
"Losers tend to brag about their winnings, while winners just stay silent because they really have nothing to prove."
You mean like Rounder!
Does anybody else have a hard time reading posts off the forum because of interference with the beige-colored background? I think I have my first forum-related complaint. Shouldn't I direct this to Chuck Weinstock -- he's the guy everybody else seems to complain to. Sorry Chuck -- but I can't see.
Jon,
Look at my post below regarding Opera, the independent browser. You can try it for free. It allows you to display the message index with a wihite background among other things. Mine is white as I write.
Regards,
Rick
I downloaded Opera and am giving it a try. It APPEARS to be a little bit faster. Some problems I am having:
1. I also have a beige background and can't get it to change to white no matter what I do. I went into appearances and changed it but it doesn't want to change. In fact, it won't accept any changes I make.
2. I can't get the pages to refresh, or reload. In IE the reload fine. IE has the newest posts and Operas posts are usually stale.
3. I can't figure out how to get my menu back at the top.
4. I've been playing with this for a few days now becaue of my total frustration with the slowness of most web sites, but as usual, I just run into more problems with the new software that take a long time to figure out.
5. Any help is always appreciated.
Ron,
I've got to leave the house very early today but I'll try to help when I come back around noon Pacific time.
Regards,
Rick
P.S Did you hit the "toggle doucment settings" icon after you made your changes. This is one of three icons to the left of the memu bar with the URLs.
Ron,
1. I also have a beige background and can't get it to change to white no matter what I do. I went into appearances and changed it but it doesn't want to change. In fact, it won't accept any changes I make.
First, under the standard Windows Menu bar (if not present press Ctrl+F11) go to View and make sure the "Progress Bar" is enabled. You might as well enable all menus and "bars".
The Button bar should have a security icon (a lock), a rather non-descript toggle loading of images icon (I love this feature), and another icon to toggle Document Settings. You will use this icon to switch between standand settings and your own settings. The Button Bar also contains the URL address space.
On the Windows Menu Bar go To "Preferences" and then select "Document Appearance". About half way down the window you will see a button to the right of Background Color. Press this and you will have a wide variety of colors to chose from including white. Try a goofy one to make sure it works before selecting white later.
Press OK where appropriate twice to enable your selection.
To test it out go to the Progress Bar and go to the icon that allows you to toggle document settings. You should then be able to check your settings versus the default sent by 2+2.
2. I can't get the pages to refresh, or reload. In IE the reload fine. IE has the newest posts and Operas posts are usually stale.
As far as I can tell, Opera is set up to load the old page and then refresh only when you press the reload icon (page shaped icon in middle) on the Button Bar. It does not work well with cache programs like Netsonic.
3. I can't figure out how to get my menu back at the top.
Press Cntrl+F11. Other bars can be moved around using View.
For speed I have the Ram cache at 5000 kilobytes and the disk catch about four times bigger but I'm not sure this is best.
Let me know how you made out.
Regards,
Rick
The Button bar should have a security icon (a lock), a rather non-descript toggle loading of images icon (I love this feature), and another icon to toggle Document Settings. You will use this icon to switch between standand settings and your own settings. The Button Bar also contains the URL address space.
I follow you here...
On the Windows Menu Bar go To "Preferences" and then select "Document Appearance". About half way down the window you will see a button to the right of Background Color. Press this and you will have a wide variety of colors to chose from including white. Try a goofy one to make sure it works before selecting white later. Press OK where appropriate twice to enable your selection.
This is no problem...
To test it out go to the Progress Bar and go to the icon that allows you to toggle document settings. You should then be able to check your settings versus the default sent by 2+2.
Now I'm lost. I have clicked on every icon I can think of after setting the background color. I don't understand why, when you go into preferences-document appearance and change the background-it doesn't just change it immediately like it does in IE. Why do you then have to click on some "toggle" switch? Why don't they tell you this? No matter where I click afterward nothing happens. There must be a simple answer--there always is with these software programs but I can't seem to find it. (If e-mail would be better for this discussion that is fine--no sense in boring everyone else with wasted band width.)
By the way, the more I play with this browser the more I like it. It IS faster and has many more feature that are truly time saving and unique. I am using it exclusively now even though I can't get some features to work. There are a few minor bugs but so far I feel it surpasses IE and Netscape. One example, in IE when I highlight a word or phrase so that I can cut, copy or paste, that box comes up immediately instead of the interminable wait you get with other browsers. Thanx for your help
Ron,
I confused the Button Bar (the one that contains the back arrow, frorward arrow, home icon, reload icon, and others in simple view (selectable from the standard MS Windows View Menu) with the Progress Bar. You can figure out which is the Progress Bar by toggling it (checking it off and on) from the View Menu.
Once at the Progress Bar you have three icons to the left or the URL address. Of these, the one on the left is a security level icon, the one in the middle toggles images, and the one to ther right toggles your settings for background color and so on. This one will give you the background color you want or the default.
I'm off tomorrow so let me know if there is any problem. I should be able to get back to you until about 5:00 p.m. PST. Then I'm off to play.
Regards,
Rick
Having corporate kick-off in early February. Staying at the Las Vegas Hilton during the week. I generally play 5-10 or 10-20, and had heard the 15-30 in Bellagio might be good to try (perhaps for a lesson or two).
Need to know: 1. Where to play close to the Hilton? 2. Where to stay the weekend before and after, based on games and/or poker rate for a room? 3. Any other words of advice?
Please either post or e-mail me directly. Thanks.
My vote would be to stay and play at the Orleans. Through the poker room rate is $35 during the week and $55 weekends. $6-12 with a kill to $10-20 is the highest holdem they spread daily. Do seem to get some $10-20 on weekends.
It is a shuttle ride from there to Barbary Coast with a short walk to Bellagio or Mirage.....or it's about a $6-7 cab ride for the impatient.
Have fun.
Diane
Wondering if anyone has any tips, suggestions, or materials that they use to practice remembering cards in 7CS.
Thanks.
A good drill(best done with the help of a partner)is to have your partner deal a deck of cards (say,1/2 deck)face up.The whole time,you are watching the cards as they are dealt.When your partner is done,you then write the number of cards remaining and type remaining (e.g.,7s,Qh,9c,etc.).While you can do this drill solo,having a partner is better because you will not know beforehand how many cards will be dealt out.You'll get the most out of this drill learning to do it as fast as you can.Good luck.
I Don't play stud but I did read this in Roy West's book which made sense:
1. Just memorize cards that are folded not every card that you see because they will remain there for you to see again (simple, huh?). i.e. if 4 players call the initial bring in, you only have 3 cards to remember. Then if 2 more players fold on 4th street, you only have 7 cards to remember the rest of the way as you will now be heads up with your lone opponent.
2. Of the cards that are folded, purge from your memory the cards that don't matter at all.
3. Of the remaining cards, remeber them in some kind of order - smallest to biggest or something - rather than in the order in which they were folded.
4. As for suits, you probably only have to remember how many cards were folded in the suit of your opponent's door card and your door card.
Anyway, that's all I remember from the West book. One of these days, I might actually try and find a stud table and broaden my poker experience.
in stud all information is useful. the order they were folded is sometimes important. also, since, for example, tough players will very often play a live weak pair weak kicker if they have a wired 2 flush, you should watch all the suits. if your opp catches hearts on 4th, 5th, 6th, it's good to know how many hearts fell.
on 3rd, i remember the ranks and sometimes their positions (i know there was a Q and a K out, but did they fold before the J raised or after? that could be important.) and the quantity of each suit. after 3rd, i usually try to remember everything. but as the hand develops it sometimes making remembering cards less important.
a drill similar to the one richard suggests should be a good tool. but don't stress yourself out to much. just watch the cards. anything you see will help your decisions. if you don't catch everything, that is ok. the only information that you cannot live without is whether your cards are live. and i suspect that you already are checking for that.
scott
skp - You posted just what I would have! I have been using Roy West's method for quite some time now, and it is pretty effective. I don't recommend No. 2, though ... purging information on useless cards. You rarely can declare a rank useless until 6th street, because if you catch a "useless" blank on 6th street, you often still want to know your chances of pairing it on 7th street.
Dick
There is a freeware 7stud game at conjelco.com called Sozebon poker. I have found that this program is very useful for training yourself to track cards.
First, I also use the West method. remember all of the cards which were folded in order low to high.I remember the suits that are out if there seem to be a lot of a single suit which would kill a flush draw. The more you do, the better you will get.
Using the program, play the game, but resist the urge to have the computer play fast after you fold. then track cards. After the hand is over make sure the computer shows all hands, and there will ba a pause before the next deal. See how you did. Repeat for weeks and it will become second nature.
You can also practice if you go to a casino and are not playing a hand, tracking the cards will help you focus on the game, and learn how you opponents play.
Best wishes
Todd
Kevin,
I've come up with a totally original way for memorizing the ranks of discarded cards. Not only is it pathetically simple to learn, it's fun too!!!
But the reason I don't feel comfortable sharing my system is also simple, it's because I KNOW it would eventually end up in some 7cs book's revised edition without my getting any mention what so ever! Then I'd probably go postal!! Sorry
A few weeks ago it was Miami, next week Seattle. I didn't get a chance to play cards in Florida but I really didn't have the time. I know there is a lot of poker in the Seattle area but I'm not sure if I will get a chance to play very much. Hopefully I will but I will be up there with my wife and daughter so I probably won't get much time to play. In case I do where is the best action at the mid limits in hold'em?
Diamond Lil's Renton $12-24 (10 miles south of downtown Seattle)
Muckleshoot Casino-Auburn (About 7 miles south of Renton) $10-20 & 20-40
Hideaway Card Room-10 miles north of downtown Seattle (145th and Aurora) 2-3 $10-20s
I heard Emerald Queen has shut down its poker room? Is that true? If so, why?
Yes they have shut down. It was a VERY poorly run room. However, they had all of the higher limit action. The initial reason I heard was because slot machines would be introduced and as we all know they produce infinitely more income at much less cost.
But this is good in my opinion because the business will go back to the Muckleshoot where it all started out in the first place. A MUCH nicer place to play in my opinion. The problem is that when the Muckleshoot lost the business a few years back to the Emerald Queen they gave up some of their "class three poker tables" to the blackjack pit. Apparently these Indian casinos are only allowed so many class three tables. 20-40 and above as well as blackjack fall within that classification. When they recently took the games back they only had one "class three table" available for 20-40 and above. Consequently they can only spread one 20-40 or higher game creating long lists and frustrated players. They can spread as many 10-20 games as they wish--I believe.
hmmm...strange rules. Anyway, thanks for the info. I haven't been on I-5 in quite some time and will likely take a trip down to Muckleshoot again sometime soon. I start to itch for some 20-40 action after a while.
If you looking for action and smoke doesn't bother you than go to the Hideway, north of Seattle. THe 10-20 (only a $2 rake) there has the best action, they play it like its 4-8. If you don't want such a wild game Diamond Lil's and Muckleshoot are nicer and better run but have a higher rake.
Someone asked the question about the 50% call on the millionaire show.
I got to thinking about all decisions I have made in life and weather the odds have entered into it.
Of course they have.
Every major or otherwise decision I have made. I have consciously of subconsciously weighted the pros and cons in my computer like brain and decided based on expectations of success being higher than failure and the reward involved.
Poker is just an extension of life maybe that is why I love it so much. It is life in high speed. Calling for probably 65 or more decisions per hour with our money where our mouth is.
So what we are talking about here is life masquerading as poker.
I think I need a vacation.
I find I'm using the Digestify feature all the time and it is a great tool. Now that I plunked down $35 for the Opera browser, I keep one window with the message index and one window with the "Digestify" listing of the full text. Now it hardly bothers me that my new DSL modem has been sitting on the floor not working for a month (actually it never worked) with no call back from Pac Bell or Earthlink.
I have one question/comment/suggestion. The default presentation for the message index is a "Mixed Threaded Listing" which appears to be the most practical and the one I have always used. Yet the "digestify" output appears to follow a standard threaded format (of course with message bodies included) with the most recent threads at the bottom. Wouldn't it be better if the default "Digestify" output followed the default "Mixed Threaded Listing"? Is this practical from a programming standpoint?
Does anyone else out there use this and have any comments?
Regards,
Rick
P.S. One minor nit regarding "Digestify". The listing would look a bit better if there was at least one more empty line between each post.
Does anybody know what the web address of Paradise Poker is?
thanks.
the obvious address to try first would be...
www.paradisepoker.com
Please check out my brand new poker page! I have had a web site for some time now, and sooner or later I had to add poker to it. The theme of the page is helping beginners. Here is the link:
http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/
I am also switching to my "permanent" e-mail address on the same site. My old addresses still work (the web site address actually gets forwarded to my AOL address), but the annabelles-treasures.com address will be permanent.
Email:
Dick in Phoenix 11/19/99
Dick,
Nice page - well done! You should post a pic so the players know which table to avoid. :-)
Mike
sure Dick put your mug on your website so the rest of us can see it. mines up there so why dont you show yourself? maybe you will even get a nice compliment from Brenda
Hey Ray what about the 2+2 pic gallery - I'll show mine if they'll show theirs. :-)
Dick, how about you adding the Pic gallery to your poker page I'd volenteer to be the 1st - but no baby offers please.
Rounder - Sure, why not? I would agree to putting up a photo gallery - it would add to the fun.
However, I will give 2+2 the first shot at it, since it really would be a 2+2 posters gallery. If for some reason Mason, David, & Ray do NOT want to, then I will be glad to.
Within limits of good taste, "If you send it, I will post it."
Di ck
Hey Dick you're not only a solid poker player you're a prince of a man.
I think a photo gallery is a GREAT idea. It would soon become the AMERICA'S LEAST WANTED (People to Play Poker With) LIST. Everyone on the list should be considered armed and dangerous (at the poker table). Do NOT try to raise the subjects yourself! Leave the table immediately!
Very nice, Dick. I've already book-marked it.
One thing, writing "Dick in Phoenix" is going to take up a lot of space. Why don't you shorten it, to like, "DIP"? :)
I'm always open to suggestions, Jon, thanks so much.
I think after this one, I'm going to have to switch to either "Dick FROM Phoenix" or "Richard in Phoenix".
Dick
I am a Seattlite who travels to Portland, OR monthly on business. Anyone know a place to play Hold 'Em in Portland? I know there are some casinos just outside the city but I don't bother with a car while I am there. Low limit games are OK.
Post or email me personally.
Thanks.
KS
I have now had the opportunity twice to play 20-40 Hold 'em with a young man named Sam at the Mirage. I guess that he frequents the game. Both times he has come into the game on an even keel, but after losing two pots he goes bonkers. When he folds, he places his cards right in front of him so the dealer has to reach a long way to get them. He asks for deck changes as often as he can get away with it. He throws the cards violently at the dealer, and my absolute least favorite tactic, he folds out of turn:
He folds on the flop if the flop isn't his way, and I mean folds on the flop. The second it is flopped, no matter what position he is in. Also, I was in a pot with him and one other guy. I was running a pretty good bluff, and felt my chances of bluffing on the end were pretty good because both guys were playing trash. Sam folded out of turn, so the other guy had no one behind him, making it much easier for him to call. This paticular move really affects the game. The other crap that he does makes me very angry, but I realize it's a sign of lots of money to come.
One question I have: would it make sense to sit on the right of anyone who folds out of turn? Sometimes older people do it because they just can't focus on the game so well, and sometimes jerks do it, because they think that the world owes them something, and then sometimes other people do it. By sitting on the right of someone who folds out of turn, a large edge may be obtained possibly?? Any thoughts?
Hedgehog
Idiots like that need a good beating but don;t try it unless your sure to win and have a good lawyer.
I'd want him on my immediate left so I could hit him with a right hook. Just kidding.
I thing it is a good plan to have him where you can take advantage of the edge the premature fold can give otherwise I'l like to be directly across the rable from him so I can read him better.
If he is giving so much away by throwing hands away on the flop, have him to your right and raise to isolate him to exploit that weakness, a nice edge. If he was continuing folding out of turn, I'd get a floorman over to straighten him out. I still don't know why any cardroom tolorates any player abusing dealers. Try to goad him into a heads up freezeout for significant money. Keep a lollipop in your pocket and when he acts up, put it in front of him. Tell the table that you are a pediatrician and lollipops will settle even the biggest babies down.
I noticed that this side forum is titled Other Topics. So is this the right place to dicuss the relationship of sex and poker. I hesitate to continue for fear of erection, ah, I mean irridation, no deletion yeah that's it. I know Mason wants us to watch our p's and q's. P is short for the male thing that males use for male things that need doing. This explanation is for those of you of the female persuasion that are not familiar with the male's p. Yes, you, Lady Gambler. By the way, I could have sworn you said you were going to participate here. Guess you were just interested in scolding poor Brenda(h). Of course anyone interested in using Z's P for making Baby's deserves a good scolding. I'm sure Z would agree if he could type. Hey do you think there is a relationship between typing and using ones P. Maybe that's why Z hasn't taken B (brenda) up on her proposal. Could be! Could Be. That would be Z's P is no good for B's desrire. There must be a math formula in that somewhere. Sklansky got any ideas? Well I anxiously await the answer to my question. Is this the right forum to discuss the relationship between Sex and Poker? That question is for Chuck or Mason. The rest of you will have to excuse me. I must use my P for an impotent function. Did I say impotent. I meant important.
Vince.
Vinny,
The other day I was at a table with a bunch of old guys I'm 53 so that is saying something.
They were talking about how great Viagra was (I wonder if their wives feel the same way - hell they thought they were done with all that stuff along time ago) Well anyway I made the comment that "If I needed Viagra I wouldn't need Viagra" they didn't get it they thought I was bragging.
53, 53 you old bugga you. Me too! What high school did you graduate from. Bet we went to differnt schools together. 53, Grandpa! Never have been to Viagra Falls. It's in New York ins't it? Maybe some day. Give Z a llitle Viagra water form Vaigra falls and he will probably look at Brenda in a little more testosterone manner. Viagr Falls slowy I turned! Step by, Step...
Vince
Vince again, sometimes once is not enough but three times are impossible.
you guys are so old. thrice is easy.
scott
scotty
wait, just you wait, you won't be 19 for ever I was 19 just a few months ago that's how fast the time flys by.
hey, old man. what do you mean i won't be 19 forever? i am not 19 yet.
scott
Q: How do you stop a Columbia freshman from having sex?
A. Tie his hands behind hi back.
Q. How do you stop a Columbia coed from having sex?
A. Marry her.
Vinny in my younger more adventurious single days I woke up one Sat morning after way to many drinks and saw this tuft of blond hair protruding from under the covers I peaked and there was this girl attached to it. She looked up at me and said "where do you keep the score board" I said "what do you mean" she said "you the score from last night 4 for you and none for me"
Been along time since those days.
it sounds like you had just the right amount to drink.
scott
Your talking about the same table after you finish playing!!!!!!!!!
Huh? No get it mon?
Vince
Winner of the game get's to do the girl who's been dealing all nite on the table that you just finished playing on.
That Help You Maaannn!!!!
ps: Thought this was SOP!!!
Dealing what?
Vince.
Whatever she wants to "DEAL" I think it was LG dealing but you better check with her VINCIE!!!!
PokerHauntus Here!!!
Paul,
I don't deal, I play, I want and I get. Most of the time anyway, I like sharing too.
I'll keep check-in I was in one of my famous "Blackouts" I couldn't remember what her name was but it didn't really matter she probably didn't remember mine either. Too much "JUICE" will do that to you.
LG most woman I play with are the same age as the men I play with and with my eyesight I can't really tell the difference. "TREAT THEM ALL LIKE PLASTIC" Words to live by at a cardtable.
WTTALG
Paul,
Be assured if you are a man, you'll notice me, bad eyes or not and you won't need VIAGRA. I already GAR.
"Sex and Poker". The title says it all and now you really got me interested. Don't worry, if I have to say the word "p", I will just refer to it as Sgt. Cletus Johnson. How does that sound to you.
But going to the subject "Sex and Poker", do you know that women have a better advantage than men when they play poker? Yesterday, I was in a game which I should not have involved myself because my hand was not the nuts (but who gets nuts anyway) and when it was just me and the other player on the river (he's got the winning hand BTW), he did not even bother to bet, he showed his hands and I saved myself a bet. I am not saying that other players might do this too but once in awhile, this advantage can be tremenduous to women players like me.
Now, if we want to be a little bit more involved in this topic, it might become too objectionable to the other readers but if we can do it, why not. Start it and I will continue it. I am always there reading the topics and this one really interests me. I have not forgotten what I said before, Vince and I will try my best to write more often. I love responding to interesting topics and you got me.
LG,
I have an aversion to playing women - when I was growing up my aunts had a friday afternoon game with 6 or 7 ladies if they were short handed they'd ask me to sit in - then proceed to kick my butt - so I have a bad experience with women and poker.
Little story:
Last WSOP I was in a super satellite 1st hand - I get AA and the button. hand is passed to me so I guess I'm feeling in control so I make a large bet - BB goes all in so I call her. She exposes 8d7d I turn my AA over flop is X77 I lose and am out on the 1st hand with AA.
I saw her a few min. later - she didn't last long even though she doubled up early. I asked her why she want all in on the 1st hand with 87 she said she got pissed cuz she thought I was trying to bully her cuz she was a girl.
Guess some days you just can't win.
Rounder,
Women are fun to play with. When I play poker with men, the games become looser and more reckless, the money is thrown into the pot and more often than not (this is a secret BTW), the money goes to me and I don't mind sharing, sometimes, the money goes to them too and everyone is happy.
And after the session, everyone dreams a happy dream.
LG - those big bright eyes would only entice me to check raise you at every opportunity cuz the guys would be mesmurized by your charm and we'd both clean up.
:-)
Rounder,
As I've said before, I don't mind sharing, how about 70/30 when we clean up but don't say our deal to the other guys, partner.
lady gambler writes:
Sex ... now you really got me interested. ... How does that sound to you.
... going to ... "Sex ... Yesterday, I was ... involved ... and when it was just me and the other ... the river ... this advantage ... tremenduous ... women ... like me.
if we want to be a little bit more involved ... it might become too objectionable to the other readers but if we can do it, why not. Start it and I will continue it. I am always there ... this one really interests me. I have not forgotten what I said before, Vince and I will try my best ... I love responding ... and you got me.
i write:
way to go, old man!
scott
scott,
you are not supposed to be reading this. maybe a couple of years or so.
Scott needs a fake ID to get into a PG13 movie.
I know that but did you see scott's response to SammyB's post on whether to play AKs at the button (David Sklansky's 2nd Holdem Question)? scott can be very adult when it comes to poker.
thank you. but i want to reiterate one of the advantages of youth. thrice is easy. go ahead. chase old man vince all you want.
scott
scott,
i'm twice your age. what will people say?
Post deleted at author's request.
You'll like what you see.
Post deleted at author's request.
Better yet, I want to meet all of you guys. See one, see all.
Scott,
I accept the truth of your assertion that for the young: *thrice is easy*
Since you are eighteen years old I thought I would share some information that you would have stumbled across soon anyway. Thrice is even easier and more enjoyable when you aren't alone.
;-)
John are you saying scott is not master of his own domain.
I prefer to think of it as Scott currently playing solitaire.
i don't know if you can remember waaayyy back to when you were 18 and death seemed far away. but try. and ask yourself, was your life more or less tame? if you had less crazy fun then than you do now, you missed your chance. you can taunt me all you want, but there is a wealth of opportunity that i have access to. and you know i'm right.
scott
Sorry to burst your bubble, scotty, but the great majority of the girls' that you have slept with, or more accurately tried to sleep with, are super ugly
alex
your calling the girl ugly will not make me go home with you.
scott
Vince,
By the way, "Sex and Poker" are interrelated. Sex in the traditional way means "Poke (r)". But we already know that. So when we think of Sex, we play Poker and when we play Poker, we think of Sex. Oh, well, I'd better go now or I might write something unacceptable.
Hey, are all you guys poker pros or amateurs? Surely we should be talking about P and S not S and P, after all P tends to last longer in my case, though even that has suffered from some pretty short sessions over the years! Mind you things have not deteriorated to the stage , as the song says, where it takes all night to do what you used to do all night - this also applies to some poker games. It's good to read some non-poker stories for a change. Should I say keep it up?
O.K., O.K, Already, Now who started this silly thread anyway? Give it a break. Is sex really that intercoursing I mean interesting that every body and his brother has to put his two inches, cents, in? What is going on with you people. I don't even remember what this thread was all about. 18 year olds, 36 year olds. Who cares about anyones age. (Although I do agree with LG, go to bed Scott, alone. BTW - tell that critic of yours that there is a song that tells it all about preety women or well, let the song say it:"If you want to be happy for the rest of your life never make a pretty women your wife. ... Get an ugly girl to marry you." How true How true! Now if I could only find one of them.)
Hey LG that is quite an admission, men will play differently against women. I was in the USAF for a long time. A supervisor. Had men and women under my supervision. I was the beginning of equal opportunity within the military. I taught a little Professional Military education. Was very adamant about equal treatment for all people. Race , sex, sexual prefernce whatever. Still am. Yet on the Poker table I still have a tendency to treat women differently. Nature, a funny thing.
Vince
THAT woman.
I thought you will never respond. You started the thread, dear Vince, now you've got to stop it. Tell all the gentlemen to take it easy now and concentrate on Poker. Sex will come again later.
I shall come by again when you have something interesting to lure me in.
I was wondering if they have any 15-30, 20-40 and pot limit hold'em games in mississippi with 5-10 blinds in biloxi or tunica.I'm going to biloxi but will travel to tunica if i have to.thanks
I am only familiar with Tunica. Only games at those limits are at the Horseshoe Casino. Call 1-800-303-7463. Ken Lambert Jr. is the poker room manager. "Anita" handles the room reservations for the poker room. If you talk to them, tell them "Diane from Green Bay says Hi".
$15-30 is played with a $5 small blind and $15 BB. $20-40 is played with $10 and $20 blinds.
I believe the pot limit is played with a blind structure of either $5 and 10 or a bigger game with $10 and 25 blinds. However pot limit is generally Omaha there or sometimes half HE and half Omaha. Best to call there and check since I haven't been there in 2 months and don't play pot limit.
Good luck, Diane
The Horseshoe spreads those limits. Also, at the Grand they are regularly spreading 8-16 hold'em because the higher limit players want to because the hold'em jackpot is over $113,000 now.
thanks guys(and lady).
Hi everyone,
Those of you who have listened to me pontificate about computer simulations (and everyone else) can now find out if I can "walk the walk" as well as "talk the talk". My new poker software is available at my website :
This is shareware, so you can download a free unregistered version from the site. To be honest, it's more aimed at less experienced players, and it is specifically tailored to the type of poker played here in the UK, but you might find it fun.
If you have any questions or comments, please respond here or E-Mail me, andy@pokersoft.co.uk . I can answer two questions in advance :
1) Yes, people really _do_ play like that, 2) There is a picture of me on the website.
Enjoy !
Andy.
Thanks, Andy I'll check it out.
Andy,
Your comment about the 50 pound note hit home with me.
When I was working in England one of my areas of responsibility was an are Studio in Ealing we had 45 artists on staff and I ran a competition to get some work done and the reward was a 50 pound note.
Well the goal was just missed but the artists worked real hard and I paid them anyway.
So many people had never seen a 50 pound note - I couldn't believe it. I was a horse player in those days and usually had several on me at anytime.
Hey Andy, I down loaded your trial version of SW and will give it a go. BTW - Where is the UK? Bloody far from here I bet!
Vince.
Hey I tried your shareware. It won't open. Gives ma an error. What gives?
Vince
Vince,
E-Mail me (andy@pokersoft.co.uk), let me know exactly what error message it displays and I'll try to sort it out.
Andy.
Some evidence that scott is a clone of David Sklansky:
1) Sklansky had a perfect score on the mathematics portion of the SAT when he was twelve years old. (S)cott was studying advanced mathematics when he was sixteen, earlier for all I know.
2) (S)cott claims to be rendering himself unemployable by studying mathematics, philosophy, and literature. (I’ll ignore that mathematics is one of the most practical things one can study.) Sklansky quit his first real job to become a degenerate gambler and hasn’t had once since. Also, Sklansky is starting to show at least some interest in philosophy. (See “Fighting Fuzzy Thinking.”)
3) Both men don’t just like poker; they have a strong, perhaps avid, desire to analyze it deeply.
Remember, a clone isn’t some kind of magical duplicate of somebody; it’s the equivalent of a younger twin sibling. There is room for substantial differences. Nevertheless, twin studies have shown that identical twins raised separately have remarkably similar temperaments and interests.
Anyone who can come up with more evidence is encouraged to post it in this thread.
"I’ll ignore that mathematics is one of the most practical things one can study."
not pure math. it's good to know calculus, but no one needs to know about lie groups or that unique prime factorization exists without the euclidean algorithm in certain rings. no one cares, unless you want to teach or crack codes. there is math/finance. and down at wall street they love those guys. there are a couple of them in my class now. they wear suits and carry brief cases. they are good citizens. they make me laugh.
here's a reason that i am not his clone. i look good. sklansky looks goofy. when we get the pictures set up this discussion will end.
scott
"no one needs to know ...that unique prime factorization exists without the euclidean algorithm in certain rings."
Hmmm, maybe. But now that I know it, I'm going to wait a little while to see if anything changes.
I don't think David looks goofy. I think he looks sexy, yummmmmmmmy!!
Okay, I disagree Lie algebras are super important in Quantum mechanics and Quantum feild theory. (Unless I'm thinking of something else, this is SU right?) They do everything for quantized angular momentum, and they are also the algebra for gluon exchange currents between quarks. Math is so useful and practical, I'm glad all these smart people did all this great stuff just to make my life easier. Thanks.
scott, you shouldn't post such in-depth math secrets. It is well known that JamesH is a russian spy. Let those commies figure things out on their own.
Just because I happen to spend a lot of time with certain russian females does not make me a commie!!!!
james im sorry to tell you but many of the russian women are men with sex changes that got into this country on false pretenses. see--- capitalism works well.
There must be some mistake! I assure you that no one WANTS to leave the motherland!
Well, if you've been following the news lately, sometime in the near future, China will be putting a man into space, which will put the score at Communists 2, Capitalists 1.
here's the score i'm concerned with: countries that don't collapse and feed their citizens? capitalists a lot. communists 0.
scott
scottie, you've grown soft. Since when has the feeding of citizens been a priority for you?
And hey, a little revolution now and then just adds to the fun.
Scott,
You obviously have a severe case of ignorance(some say that is bliss, so enjoy). By the way, Sklansky's mouth works wonders. Your's is just big.
could you please enlighten me?
scott
Scott, Mr. Sklansky's mouth has many wonders. I most certainly could not reveal them all to you, as my message would most assuredly be ousted from this site.
I will, however, tell you, that there is one very obvious difference between you and David. That, oh small-minded one, is that intelligent things come out of his mouth. This is something you most certainly can not boast.
Good evening.
granted. i am ignorant. i already knew that. but i am very concerned that i do not know which of my ignorances you speak of. it may be one that did not know exists. how am i to overcome my shortcomings if i don't know of them? i need your help. i am not even sure if you address my misguided attempts at humor or something much more important. please. help me. where should i begin to battle my ignorance?
scott
Hey noname, you a commie too?
Also, the brilliant post about communists having a 2-1 score about men in space made me do some thinking. Some serious thinking.
Here's what I came up with. You're an idiot.
if you were merely insulting me, perhaps to make yourself feel better or as an act of catharsis or just for fun, and have no information that can help me, that is ok, too. i assure you that i bear you no ill will. if ever wish to insult me in the future, by all means, do so. i only ask that you phrase the insult so that a disinterested reader, who has no care for me one way or the other, would laugh. then, i would even consider it a good dead.
scott
Hmmm, did Scott prove someone wrong about something in some recent thread?
btw, it is odd how you keep saying those things about David's mouth. I'd guess it's only about 50% likely that David would appreciate that.
It's really far less than 50%. I wasn't thinking about the actual gender breakdown in poker.
When it comes to math, it is more important and influential in your life than most of you believe. Everyday we are faced with situations and decisions which demand mathematical knowledge to deal with. The telling thing is that almost every one of these issues revolves around money.
How do you save? How do you spend? Who tracks your money? What interest rate are you being charged/charging? How much does your labor cost? How much will you spend on entertainment? What will you pay for an airline ticket? What kind of scams will you fall for? What are your pot odds? How much should you pay for insurance? What investment is best? Should you buy or lease a car?
The list goes on and on. The most amazing thing is that there are people with PhDs doing the math that dedtermines how to extract as much money from you as possible in almost every case above.
The scarry thing isn't that math is everywhere. The scarry thing is the most people have little idea how much it is used to manipulate how you move your money around.
- Andrew
you certainly make an unassailable point. math can be very practical in life. but my original point is that the private sector cares very little for most upper level mathematics. (which is good, because i don't want a job.) the two results i listed are among thousands of interesting, beautiful things that do not make a better mouse trap.
scott
scott,
The private sector cares *very* much about people who know how to use math to make money. For example WallMart employs Data Mining specialists to analyze their terabytes of sales data. Data Mining is a subfield of pattern recognition which is about as math oriented a field as you can get into.
Have you seen the "miniature vegetables" add from IBM? This kind of math is being used to market services on prime time television.
- Andrew
but the portion of math that can be used to make or manipulate or do anything to money is a small part of mathematics. and, in my experience, it is usually the ugliest part.
scott
The "small portion" which you talk about, are the largest active areas of mathemtatics. Almost every form of applied mathematics is concerned with making/saving/directing/manipulating money.
Maybe you think that convex analysis is "theoretical", but most airline companies use algorithms developed from theorems in this field to route planes.
Federal express started out as a research project dealing with optimal logistics for package delivery. Believe me, the most intense "theoretical" mathematics is used every day to make someone money. We just don't see it because we don't look for it.
As far as ugliness goes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You might say that group theory is beautiful. I agree, but it is also the fundamental abstraction used in linear algebra, probably the most widely used form of mathematics when it comes to "making money".
On the other hand, I think matrix algebra is amazingly intuitive and beautiful.
- Andrew
but is it supersymmetric? or just symmetric
I'll be at the Imperial Palace from Thanksgiving through Sunday. If anyone wants to come by and whoop it up, give me a call at the room (it will be listed under my name, Guy Downs) or give me an e-mail.
Hey GD how about you and some other people maybe giving the rest of us some different ways to access the internet while on the road.
Hey Ray,
Just pull into the first rest stop you find. Get out of your car. Open the hood and grab each side of the rectangular thing that has a little post on each side. Then yell Internet, Internet, Internet (gotta say it three times). With that head of hair you will soon light up, then just start typing. Hope that helps.
Vince.
i dont have a car. i have a truck. would your excellent advise still apply.
Ray,
It actually works better with a truck than with a car. Make sure that you are standing barefooted in a puddle of water though so that there isn't any static interference with your signal when you are first connected. You might also call the guy at the finance company that holds the note on the truck and tell him that you changed your mind and do want that credit life insurance option that he suggested. (Do this before you attempt internet access) It is good to see that you are getting this high-tech thing so much faster than people thought you would.
Thanks for the help BJ. I was having trouble converting my thoughts into Montanaese. It's such a bear. I'm sure Ray won't have any trouble now with the instructions. Of course I'm not sure the energy level in the rectangular thing in one of those Tonka Trucks will be enough for some of the remote places Ray finds himself. We can only pray. By the way Big Guy that's Hi-Tech for us non Tonkers, uh Tokers.. smokers.
Vince.
I was recently reading a rather interesting essay by superstar John Feeney about the importance of having multiple table images. Then I did some thinking, real hard thinking, and came up with the answer.
The problem of your table image is that your opponents can actually see you. The solution : wearing a bio-suit. There are a multitude of advantages involved in such a solution.
First and foremost, your opponents can't see you. If you want them to think you are a certain type of player then it is a simple matter of painting a face on your mask. Multiple table images mean multiple images on different angles of your helmet. To really put the moves on your opponent all you have to do is turn your head and they will be weirded out.
Secondly, and I must thank my good friend scott for this benefit. People worry about smoke in cardrooms. What about ebola? If you wear a bio-suit, then you're not gonna be effected by either. What's your EV gonna be when you're dead? huh? its zero (scott helped me figure that one out, I'm a little light on the math side of the brain).
Thirdly, people will think you're crazy.
Fourthly, there is a lengty precedent of people doing well wearing funny suits. Just look at the Harlem Globetrotters or any of the movies where the dog is on the football team or the basketball team. You wouldn't think the might ducks are good at hockey would you? Well they are.
Now, you may think my idea is a little silly. But have you ever been inside a bio-suit?
I was talking it over with scott and JamesH, two members of the Montgomery Blair High School Poker game, and we all that bio-suits were a genre of poker theory that has not yet been qualitatively analyzed. No one will try to angle shoot ya if you there is a distinct possibility that you are from another planet, will they?
Alex
why do i have this funny feeling that Paul Feeney will reply to this one.
even after i said this he wont be able to hold back i can assure you.
I too think Paul will undoubtedly respond, but first I must say a few words. This really is a great advance in the use of "image" in poker. I was kind of proud of having addressed the question of multiple images in Poker Digest, but Alex has given us a way of exercising a level of control over those images that far exceeds anything heretofore thought possible. In considering the precursors to this revolution in applied poker strategy, I am reminded of Picasso. I believe Alex's idea may represent the first application of cubism to strategic games. I will leave it to other students of art history to clarify this point.
Thanks Alex
AlexB,
"Return Of The Ninja" hiding facial muscles is the key to the outfit. People who did research in the 70's on facial muscles all committed suicide due to the extreme number of muscles in the face. Today's research I'm not up on but maybe there's a Bio-Scott out there that could endeavor us with his/her facial muscle update.
Back to my Bio-Hazard Suit
TTYL
Paul
Very interesting points John and Paul, but unfortunately for us all, scott had his face tragically burned with kitchen oil at the age of 7. The result has left his face a twisted wasteland of burned flesh. (My guess is the only reason he wins occasionally in our home game is that people give him handouts because of his recurring inability go get girls).
So, I think that scott would profit most of all from the bio-suit.
Furthermore, the concept of a bio-suit certainly needs theoretical background. I envision an entire new line of two+two books. The fundamental theorem of the bio-suit, advanced bio-suit tactics, bio-suit essays and bio-suit essays II. Perhaps even a bio-suit vs. bio-suit expose for when the idea catches on. Who knows, the possibilities are limitless.
This is what I casually mentioned to scott, after having to listen to his desire to contribute a work of prose to this fabulous genre of study. It sure beats wearing a paper bag over his head.
alex
Umm...a transvestite/female impersonator played in a game across from me at the Mirage once...probably escaped from the Riviera...didn't seem to help him win.
but a transvestite with a bio-suit? the possibilities are limitless
I kept track for a while and estimate that the number of hands played per hour in the Paradise Poker hold'em games is about 34.
Does anyone know the average for live casinos?
Probably about the same. A little more in higher limit games where less players tend to enter the pot and most players know to play fast. A little less at the lower limits.
On the last night of MARGE 99 one of our attendees managed to sum up the spirit of MARGE with 2 simple words. We had just completed our Awards Mixer and discussion with Gary Carson and had started back down the long hallway between the conference room and the casino. We had 2 small rooms for our mixer and the rest of the meeting area was taken up by the Gulfport Area Auxiliary Club. They were having a Black Tie and Evening Gown function and it has been a long time since I had seen more beautiful women and handsome men. We had just finished drinking as heavily as possible in order to hit a $300 bar tab so there would be no charge for the Bartender. (Thank you ADBers for doing more than your part) Here we were 25 or so rumpled, drunk, cigar smoking poker players walking among the beautiful people of Biloxi. Steve"ICE"Eisenstein said, "Ok everyone, BLEND IN." You probably had to be there to realize just how funny this statement was but Blending In really described our first Marge. We came from 12 states but blended together like we grew up on the same block. We blended with the locals who were good ole boys and girls but enjoyed our visit and were sorry to see us leave. And most of all we blended with the Poker Room Staff of Tony Collins like we were fingers of a glove. In a million years we couldn't imagine being treated any better. As long as I am one of the Marge organizers it will be held at the Grand in Biloxi.
I will leave it to others to fill in all the poker details like key hands in the tourneys, bad beats in the ring games and long rolls of numbers at the craps tables. I want to talk about the people of Marge. The first thing I noticed when I entered the poker room was a well-designed sign saying Welcome Marge 99. Christine was running the table lists and was looking forward to our arrival. She introduced me to Gary who was described to me as Tony Collins Right Hand man. They both told me that if there was anything I needed to let them know and it would be taken care of. They let me keep the Badges and other Marge material behind the desk and even handed out the Badges when I wasn't in the room. All the dealers were professional and efficient and above all very friendly. They asked questions about how we all met and seemed astonished when we told them that we were mostly meeting for the first time. They all asked for information on how to get on the IRC or how to access RGP. They genuinely wanted to be part of our community. This spirit carried on until the final night when 2 or 3 dealers lobbied with the floor to be our Chowaha Dealer. Tony Collins followed through on his promise to spread any game we wanted as long as it was legal in Mississippi. At 2:00am Sunday morning the first 2-4 Chowaha Game south of the Mason Dixon line had cards in the air. With a roadmap prepared by Peter"ADB Foldem"Secor the dealer was ready. The pot was capped before the cards were dealt as is Chowaha tradition putting $80 in the pot pre-deal. Bruce"ADB Bigboy"Kramer who bought into this 2-4 game with $500 in white chips won the first pot. Locals crowded around the table laughing and even contemplated joining us. The floor supervisor Bruce had an opportunity to make the first Chowaha ruling as well. Peter and Bill Alan were awarded half a pot each with K5 and K6 with a AAK9 as the common cards. Bruce said wait a second. Two cards must play so the K6AAK beats K5AAK. Peter reached into Bills stack and took his chips and the table cracked up. It was very odd to see the floor pointing to 3 flops, 2 turns and 1 river in making his pronouncement.
The tournaments held in Biloxi were run by Debbie and ran very smoothly. She had color sheets made up with blind structures and double times so everyone knew what to expect. The dealers were not used to dealing tourneys but did a great job and made few errors. The Omaha 8 tourney started promptly at 8pm Thursday night and took 6 hours to finish. People who complained that the blinds escalated too quickly at Barge would have loved our tourneys. Even though we had only 4 tables in the Omaha, 5 tables in the SHO and 4 tables in the NLHE each tournament took almost 6 hours to complete. I really believe these events were structured in a way that allowed skill to be a major factor in determining a winner. I think everyone felt sorry for Debbie who worked a full shift Thursday afternoon and then returned at 6:30 to run our Event. By 2am she was ready for the end. Bruce Kramer and Rich Barrett went head to head for quite a while before Rich was crowned the first Marge winner and awarded a TOC qualification and a Biloxi Grand Poker Jacket. The Grand had a dozen pizzas brought in for us to eat during the breaks and then invited the locals and dealers on break to join in as well. The Friday SHO event was held at the Gulfport Grand and run by Marie and Lynn with the same class as Debbie. Even though they knew we were giving the Biloxi Grand most of our action they rolled out the red carpet for us. All final table finishers were given parting gifts and the winner received a Gulfport Grand Poker Jacket. The 3 game structure of this event was complicated but handled very well by the Gulfport Staff. This event ended when Mike McCullar finally beat Len Forsyth to take the second Marge title and TOC qualification. My second biggest thrill of the weekend came during this event when I made a Royal Flush in 6 cards during the stud round to double through Dr. Tom Overton. This may have been his only loss all weekend and it wasn't enough to get me into the money.
The main event of Marge was the Saturday noon No Limit Hold Em tourney. When we arrived in the poker room we noticed that there were 2 tables with white table clothes and some party trays. It turns out that Tony Collins had made arrangements to have a full luncheon catered for us. There were cold cuts, salads, chips and all sorts of munchies in our honor. At the first break they announced that the food was for everyone in the room but to please let us eat first since we had only a 10-minute break. In addition to the TOC qualification available to the winner of this event, the Best All Around Player qualification and award was up for grabs. Any one of 5 or 6 players could have won this award with a good finish near the top. When Rich Barrett busted out in 7th with Tom Overton still playing, the BAAP race was over. Tom busted 6th but still won the BAAP by 5 points 288-283. He finished 3rd, 4th,and 6th. What a solid player and great guy. He has finished at the final table in 2 of the last 3 years at Barge and continued that tradition at Marge. Tom the Tominator White had a pretty big chip lead heading into the final table but it was very even when he got heads up with Peter Secor. It went back and forth for a while before Tom won the 4th and last TOC Qualification by winning the NLHE event.
We then met for cocktails and munchies and to hand out the trophies and talk poker with Gary Carson. Tony Collins honored us by attending and having a few drinks with us. We presented him with a plaque thanking him and the Poker Room staffs for taking such good care of us. He told us that they were very proud of their rooms and very pleased with the way the Margers behaved and interacted with the staff and locals. He told us we were always welcome back and I believe him. We gave out trophies to our 4 winners and handed out some humorous awards as well. The hands down winner of the Most Flops Seen Award was John"JohnnyD"Davis. This win was so clear cut that next year we will call it the JohnnyD Award and give it to the player who best personifies the JohnnyD style. Make sure you ask him and Nut-Z about the 23o in the SHO Tournament. The least flops seen went to Tom Overton. I wonder if this has any relation to his finishing as BAAPlayer…. Nah…couldn't be. Ms Congeniality was awarded to Bernie"ternyberny"Collack. Worst beat was given to Frank "Nut-Z"Brabec for losing in Pot Limit Game with full house to perfect perfect straight flush (other player had T8o). It was then on to the discussion with Gary Carson. Gary was hampered all weekend by a severe cold or flu and had a hard time talking. There was lots of discussion about the hands he said were profitable to play UTG. It was many more then is conventional wisdom. His main focus is that players need to think differently about the game then is generally written about. The discussion then turned towards the overall decline of poker rooms on the Gulf Coast and what could be done to stop this. Tony had some interesting things to add here and feels that we on the internet will play a big part in the future success of poker.
The last official event of the weekend was the Midnight Madness No Limit Holdem Freezeout. It was $75 plus $10 and had 16 entries. The winner was Frank Brabec. I would like to give some details but busted early and went on to play Chowaha.
I want to mention some individual people who stood out this weekend. Anyone not mentioned please don't get insulted. Matt Kovacs who I believe has attained ADB status was by far the best tipper. He won $1300 in 15-30 Omaha game and along the way tipped each new dealer half of the first pot that was scooped by him. He also tipped Debbie $150 when he scooped another pot. The dealers loved Matt. Peter Secor was in my opinion the glue that held everything together. His history of attending almost all Barges and other *Arge events gave Marge the credibility it needed. Without him the Chowaha game would have never happened. I want to thank my friend Frank Brabec for preparing the DOH schedules and for the gifts for my new son Aidan. He also made a banner that reserved a spot for me on rail when I busted out of a tournament. Thanks to John"panfried"Fleming for the Schmengie beanie for Aidan and Thanks to JohnnyD for running a smooth Symposium. Thanks to Rick Charles for everything from emceeing the awards to taking and posting the pictures. Thanks to everyone who made the effort to travel to Mississippi to attend Marge. I especially want to thank Steve Jewett for working side by side with me and making this event happen. I considered it a lot of fun and Steve's can do attitude was one of the reasons why.
The final and most heartfelt thanks go to everyone in the Grand Poker Rooms in Biloxi and Gulfport. You made this event a success. From Tony Collins on down we owe you a debt of gratitude.
Randy Collack
Chuck,
Now I don't know about anyone else but since the inception of 6 forums after being on one for a while I forget which one I'm on (CRS) now if we had a trail of where we are on either side I could follow the bread crumbs and return. I know on some computers the forums hi-lite which one your on but one of mine doesn't and the other one I have to dump THE GREEN CORRIDOR it is much easier to get lost. My suggestion is to lace the background in some way stating what forum you are on.
Ex: GT GT GT GT GT
Ex: THE THE THE THE THE THE THE
Ex: OPG OPG OPG OPG OPG
Ex: TNMT TNMT TNMT TNMT
Ex: OGG OGG OGG OGG OGG
Ex: OT OT OT OT OT OT
Sorry Chuck Draper what can I say.
paul
with netscape anyway. if i double click on the forums they stay highlighted rather than single click. i also look to see who has posted. if your name is all over the place its one of two bottom forums(sports or abbrev.) i also got a logitech internet keyboard(satples,office max, costco) about 20 bucks. its got buttons on the right that you can get around without having to click the mouse(back,forward, etc.) you still need the mouse to open a post(am i right or does someone know how to do it from the keyboard?)
Hello...
I am a new poster here on the boards however, I've been reading them for some time. Very insightful I must say.
Now to the point...
I'm looking for a Hold'em Player in the St.Louis area (within 100miles) to tutor me. This may be a bold post, however, after reading the first 2+2 book, I found that with me being less of a reader and more of a see and learn type person, I think I would retain quite a bit more if I were to have someone explaining more...You get my point.(Obviously I am going to continue reading...retaining and solid understanding is my concern)
I of course have a long way to go before being successful, I'm aware of that. However, I do have dedication(former blackjack system player-in depth learning as well as in HE)and I feel I can be successful with the correct guiding.
If anyone is interested do let me know... Please, as bold as this may sound, I'm very serious about this...If your a weekend player, sitting back with a couple drinks, and have a "solid idea" of the game- I'm not looking for you. I am looking for that serious player who has the time to tutor. I have a work schedule that allows me a lot of free time. I work half the month, so finding time in ones schedule is quite easy for me.
Thank you for your time and I apologize upfront to anyone thatfinds this too bold or inappropriate.
Good day,
TheSilence
E-Mail: Thesilence1226@yahoo.com
you can't beat sklansky, but he charges $300 per hour. if you're looking for someone cheaper, i'd love to tutor you. i got lots of free time and could use the cash. but i'm just some punk kid who's not allowed in casinos and lives in ny. so, i'm not your guy. if the qualifications change, let me know.
until then i have an idea. now, i'm not a bettin' man, but i'd put up a healthy wager that if you post your questions, you'll get them answered for free.
scott
Did someone piss him off, or does he just not like the new split forum format?
Tom D
Tom D,
Nobody pisses anyone off on this forum, they are just written misinterpretations of scholarly knowledge that can't be found anywhere else in the world.
Paul The Dunce
i don't know where he is. do you?
scott
Doesn't it strike you a little funny that Louie's initials are LL? Same as Lex Luther. And just when there is a crisis somewhere in the world old LL is missing. Hmmm, stranger things have happened.
Vince.
rather than deleting offensive posts which take time and viligence we were experimenting with a way to eliminate the actual poster. since Louie was one of our original posters and a great person we figured he would be a good subject. a cookie bomb was sent in the range of two mega bitzels and the resulting implosion left no trace. and now for Vince.
Dear Mr. D,
Louie recently suffered a string of bad beats which cleaned him out, but good! He is currently reevaluating and plodding a new course of action for his triumphant return to poker underneath the 110 Freeway Overpass at Rosecrans in downtown L.A.
Sincerely, Perry
Perry,
That's a sad story. I thought maybe he was pouting because he didn't make the 2+2 super poster list with John and Vince.
Tom D
I will gladly give him my spot on the list. He's more of a superstar anyway. But he's not going to like not being able to go out in public anymore.
Tom,
Where can I find this 2+2 super poster list? And how often do they post a new list?
Thanks, Danny
Now I know what happened to Boris.
Actually Boris showed up about a week ago, posting a question about exposed cards. He posts here (sometimes) under the name "railway man".
Now, whatever happened to Ettiene??
thank god i always start my computer in safe mode. (with network support). brad (bustr on irc poker)
Tom,
I've gone through some major changes recently, mostly cosmetic, and am now recovering nicely. My whole life has been nothing but a lie up until now. I feel like a butterfly emerging from a cacoon of denial. I'll give you all the details a little later, I've just broken a nail, "Oh $_it! Snagged my pantyhose, damn it! I guess it's just going to take me a while to adjust, see ya.
Love and kisses, Lucy
How about some new essays Thanks Hy
how about you making some good posts on the forums and entering in more discussions. if you have any gambling knowledge you can write a guest essay and submit it. so far we all contribute for free on our valuable time. those that post very little or not at all get one hell of a bargain but lose out in the long run.
ns
yeah!
X
well, i hope you didn't just stay in the dorm and eat tofu?
just because scott is alergic to every major food group and is restricted to eating tofu and seaweed, its not nice to mock his eating habbits.
no one says to you that you look like a donkey
thanks, but i went home and had a great thanksgiving dinner. we have a computer at home. (where i am now.)
oh, and my friend alex is an idiot. just thought you should know.
scott
I may be an idiot, but I'm probably the only dude on the forum who has like a 15-3 record playing you heads up hold 'em. Scottie boy folds under the big pressure.
i can't handle your bio-suit.
scott
Where is alex form, bulgaria?
i am not sure where he is from but i knoe his dad is always going to kazakistanoramia.
scott
He laid her on the table, so white, clean and bare. His forehead wet with beads of sweat, he rubbed her here and there. He touched her neck and then her breast, and then, drooling, felt her thigh. The slit was wet and all was set, he gave a joyous cry. The hole was wide . . . he looked inside, all was dark and murky. He rubbed his hands and stretched out his arms, and then he stuffed the turkey.
Happy Thanksgiving!
hi, id like to start playing HE tournaments , preferably no rebuy, in the phoenix area. where are the best places and times to play? thx
p.s. only small buy in tourneys.
brad,
4 casinos offer tournaments -
Casino Arizona 480-850-7777 HE played on MWF 11am $30 buy in no RB.
Fort McDowell, 1800-the Fort HE on Sat 5pm and fri 5pm $30 buy in no RB.
Gila River 1800 Win Gila - HE MWF call for Schedule but they do a 1 be buy and unlimited rebuys for the 25 to 50 range.
Harras, Sat Noon $25 - HE $5 bounty and 2 super bountys of $20 - If your a super bounty and you make the break it is yours to keep. I never miss this one if at all possible -
thanks a lot.
brad
p.s. i'll be gunning for a big ugly italian, so watch out for a medium german with cropped hair and buck teeth who cracks himself up a lot. (gee, i may go by the name of Orr there).
TWIMC,
I didn't play in any of them yesterday but they started. They set up a separate area for them near the stairwell going downstairs in the center of the room. I heard the monies $300/400/500 7CS,HE. It is a nice area well ventilated for all the smokers so they won't get sick.
Paul
Paul is that per table $$ amounts or individual.
paul is ball-parking the prizes. Satellites go 8-handed in all games, and are for prizes of $220, 330, 550, or 1080. All prizes for 1-table sats are paid in $100 lammers plus the remainder in cash ($220 = 2 lammers plus $20).
Satellites are scheduled from 10 am until 4 am. Supersatellites are at 11 am (but end Sunday) and 7 pm. morning supers are for $1080 prizes, and are paid as in 1-table events. 7 pm supers are for $3100 seats in the main event, and are paid in non-transferable entries. Extra money during evening supers (extra after taking out as many 3100 entries as possible) are paid in lammers plus some cash.
After a couple of days, 2 supers, and 4 1-tables sats, I haven't made a profit, but I'm sure I will before the end of this series. There are many weak players, typically half or more of each table/field.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I really believe that the career of professional poker player (a venue which friends scott, maniac mark, and JamesH are planning to pursue) has a fundamental flaw which prevents it from being a reputable career.
Poker isn't reputable. Why you ask? Because its gambling? The bible doesn't like it? It preys on degenerates who play because they must? Nahh, the reason people don't respect poker is because they wear funny hats.
Now I must confess that other careers have arisen from such fashion problems. The nba certainly got through the whole short shorts thing, and rock and roll got past the funky costumes of the 80s.
So, instead of a visor or a baseball cap that announces participation in some tournament, wear a goofy hat, a glasses and fake mustache, googly eyes, funny eyeglasses where the eye falls out (see my previous post about bio-suits, a very fashionable move now also)
Let me tell you, normally Mark would never be able to take on Scott, but after wearing googly eyes on fri. night, he took 40-50 dollars off him.
Poker hats are bad, pirate/duck/spy hats are good. There is a line, however fine, and no one can hope to reach any level of poker nirvana without embracing it.
alex
"It preys on degenerates who play because they must"?
You mean, "who play because they choose." A common misconception made by the hyper-emotional.
Sincerely, Danny
was the hats.
scott
scott,
Are you sure? I could have sworn "The Point" was at the tip of your head.
Ha Ha Ha, God I need Help!
Last year (1999) some kid showed up with a mohawk doo and purple hair. He said no one could resist calling someone who looked like him. Well it worked for about 10 min. He was a soplid player - trying to fool us old codgers. I have seen a lot of young men showing up with wierd doos and pierced $h!t in their faces trying to get a maniac image. It don't work eigther.
But maybe the hat thing will work - I doubt it.
The hat thing is much deeper than that, Rounder. Ask Alex, he'll tell you. It's more about the very essence of BEING as you wear your hat, or maybe your googly eyes. No, it's not about getting calls. Anyone can do that easily enough with the image created by chanting aloud at the table, "I am a lucky player. A powerful winning horse counfounds me.", or "Poker is fun, and a fife is funny." (I trust you'll delurk and correct me if I got those wrong, MJC.)
If you really think hard about the theory of ugly hats you will simply |||KNOW||| poker. Isn't that right, Alex?
John, you've hit the point exactly.
It seems you old poker codgers are so caught up in thinking that you aren't preying on degenerates or that you can beat kids with funny hair-dos that you've missed the point. The point is that playing poker with a bad hat is pretty much the worst way to whittle away our miserable time on this planet.
alex
Danny Dolan, or DD if you would prefer.
You're missing the point (as scott said) but I will attempt to make you feel a little better about yourself. No one coerces people to play poker, and playing poker is has a certainly more societal benefit then selling drugs or killing people.
but it is indefensible as a socially valuable occupation. you play poker to make money, which you will spend on things until you die. you're not helping people, you're not learning anything about anything important, so whether the people you are preying on are degenerates falls beside the point.
Alex,
Obviously you've missed your calling. You should quit poker and become an editor of a major newspaper or magazine. Your powers of observation are absolutely uncanny! I can't wait to see all of your upcoming critiques, my printer is warmed-up and ready to go. What else can I say? I'm in awe!
Sincere as can be, Carl
Biosuits-Hats-Helmets-Pantyhose-Raincoats
Time To Take A Look AlexB Before The WhiteCoats Bring You To Your Knees
A Concerned Dr.
do you mean that duck hats or pirate hats or spy hats are good or have you run across some kind of hat hybrid?
scott
speaking of ugly poker hats. On the train back to NY I read The Fall, by Camus. It is goooooooooooood reading.
bet cha Dumb ol DD hasn't even heard of Camus (pronounced CAM-OOOOOOO) <---- wanted to help DD out in case he was trying to sound it out.
I need to know which clubs in the LA or Phoenix areas play seven-card stud eight-or-better, what limits, and how often the game goes.
Thanks, Mason
Mason,
I know that there are 20-40 stud hi-lo's at both the Commerce and Bike every evening. If you like shorthanded play, go to the Commerce and you can probably get a bigger game if you speak with Randy Kim beforehand. As far as I know, there is no regular game at Crystal Park, but I'd bet that Hollywood Park has at least a 20-40 pretty regularly.
Mason & Big John,
Hollywood Park has a regular 20/40 game that sometimes goes all night. I would say it looks pretty good most of the time although we do use props. If it isn't going all night it usually starts up just after noon (probably too early for Mason).
By the way, we ran into Randy Kim last week at the Bike. He is now working there instead of the Commerce. Anyway, the Bike seems to be doing quite a bit better recently, including top section.
Regards,
Rick.
Rick,
That is funny! I just read the profile that Randy did in Poker Digest that came out this week about his poker Host job at the Commerce and now he's at the Bike? Perhaps Hashem had a lot to do with his moving over? I think Randy is one of the most likeable hosts I've ever met.
Mason, I don't recall seeing this spread in any of the Valley casinos. I'll check it out next week when I get back or if you want to call here are the 800 numbers for 2 clubs.
Gila River - 1800-WIN GILA Ft McDowell 1800 THE FORT
Casino Arizona - 1 480 850-7777 You want the Indian Bend Location here.
Stud 8 or Better only usually gets spread here(phx) in the context of the d.c. mix game. Once every couple of years or so it will get spread exclusively, but that's usually due to out-of-town guests.
When I had a layover in Crystal Park last month, there was a 20 game. Not enough data to ascertain how standard an occurrence that is.
JG
Amendment:
It had been a short bit since I'd been to CA. One of the regulars told me this week that they are often getting a 20-40 stud8/o8 mix game that draws from all classes.
JG
I'm 37 years old, and when I was a kid every once in a while you'd here the tale about how you could play the card game 'Solitaire' in Las Vegas for cash. The details were always a little hazy, but as a kid,I always wondered if it were true.
Well, several years back I was sitting in a college history class when low and behold our teacher mentioned, in response to some off-the-topic conversation, that Vegas offers solitaire. I perked right up and said that I thought it was a myth,and if it wasn't, to please fill me in on the details of how it's played,how you're paid, etc.... At least three people jumped to our teacher's defence, insisting that it is offered there. And holding true to legend, it's always second hand testimony that serves as indisputable proof for its existence--like,my uncle knows,or my neighbor told me. The only difference now, was that the legend had changed from a hands on deck of cards, to a video format--like video poker.
Of course nobody could tell me the name of ONE casino that offers the machines in question. And in all the years I've gone to Vegas since that class, I still have yet to see one, and probably never will.
So my question to you is: At one time or another, have you ever heard the tale of Vegas offering 'solitaire' to be played for cash?
I'd be most curious to hear, Thanks
There was a table in Reno in the 60's where you could play against an individual. He had the concession, I believe. It cost $52.00 to play, you received $5.00 for each card you successfully brought up to the board. (best possible was $260 if you ran the deck) If you made any mistake such as playing a card from the fourth column from your left instead of from the third column, the game was over. You shuffled, he cut and you dealt. You went through the deck three cards at a time and could only go through twice. The game was unbeatable and seldom played. There was also a faro layout and a chuck-a-luck game there. The 21 game had a 10 cent minimum during the week in the winter and 25 cent minimum on weekends. During the summers it was .25 during the week and $1.00 on weekends. I don't remember the name of the joint, but the main entrance was off an alley that ran from between the back of Harrah's, Harold's and Fitzgerald's on one side, and the Gold Club on the other. This alley ran parallel to Virginia Street. The front of the joint opened onto the street that ran parallel to the railroad tracks. Next door to the joint, just north, was a small poker room and sports book. This was in 1964 when I was stationed at Stead AFB. A couple years later I ran into the guy who had the concession for the solitaire; he now had moved up in the world and had a single 21 table concession in the Greyhound bus station in Reno. I used to watch him put the cards into some kind of high low order while he waited for the people to come by with their 2 for 1 coupons that were given away all over the place. Over the course of many hours spent playing a 5 cent bingo pinball machine in the Greyhound station during the years I went to college in Reno, I never saw any player walk away with a win in that 21 game.
Fitzgerald's was called the Nevada Club and he had a single zero roulette wheel in there. Everyday the Nevada Club had system players who would come in and start out with a minimum straight up .10 minimum limit on even/odd, red/black, first 18/second 18 bets. I think you could bet .05 on numbers or even columns. The system players would go off for huge numbers on the days when their systems hit their Waterloo.
Thank you John,
You say this took place in the 60's which coincides with my age, since the first time I heard about it was in 1969 or 1970, I was born in Jan'62. You mention that you personally witnessed the 21 game, but not the solitaire--although you did go into great detail, did you personally see it played? I seem to remember hearing that it cost a dollar per card to play, just like you said. And have you heard of it being available in a video poker type of format?
Thanks again, Lincoln
I saw the layout and the guy standing behind it waiting for any takers. I don't remember seeing anyone trying to actually play. I did see people actually play the faro. There was a sign next to the concessionaire that explained the proposition in full detail. I played in the 21 game on several occasions, and once won a 30 to 1 payoff by hitting 6-6-6 on the chuck-a-luck. I can't believe they would have the game there and not have someone willing to play it, so I'm pretty sure that they had takers. To me, $52.00 would have been a lot of money to wager on something I believed to be a sucker bet. If you are dying to try it and can get to Southern Ca., I'll come to your hotel room and bank it against your play.
John, im pretty sure it was called the palace club. i used to go in and play 21 there in the early 70's. they use to tell me to go to pappy's( harolds club) whenever i got about 100 ahead. in those days if the particular table got stuck more than it usually makes on a shift the bosses caught hell from the owner as he figured he got cheated.
Ray,
I think the Palace was north of this joint and on the same street as the Greyhound terminal. This place would have been 2 doors south of the Palace.
Speaking of "Pappy" Smith and Harold's Club, I used to play there almost daily, waiting for him to come around and say: "If they can win this next hand, pay the lucky bastards double." He did this at least once a day at every 21 table during the off season. I would be betting a buck or two a hand waiting for him to come by and then I'd bet it all for this one hand. Even though his son was the actual owner, "Pappy" was the front man for the casino. He had a "Colonel Sanders" like persona, gladhanding the visitors and making them feel welcome. After his death, his son Harold lost the casino and wound up a pit boss or supervisor at either the Mapes hotel and casino or the Riverside Hotel Casino. When I lived in Reno, Harold's was the premiere casino. They had a cocktail hostess that looked exactly like Sophia Loren and styled her hair the same way. She made an absolute fortune in tokes, with guys falling all over themselves trying to make an impression.
i remember the old man too. i talked with him a few times along the way. in the 50's and 60's there were signs all over the world saying this way and xx miles to harolds club,reno nevada. kind of like the wall drug ads. gambling changed from a sport to a business. someday ill put all the stories together the dead will turn over in their graves and the living will put a contract on my axe.
How bout'it,
Like the one Phil Hellmuth has, but instead of displaying pictures of tournament champions, have photos of 2+2's superstars (like scott safranek).
But seriously, what do you think?
Sincerely, Milton
Dear Milton,
Sure, I'd submit my photo, nude ok?
Regards, Connie
superstars like scott? well, scott looks like a donkey, don't know about the other superstars.
i, on the other hand, am not a superstar. Not even a regular star. But i am damn good looking. With or without a space-suit.
i am still not going home with you.
scott
Milton,
When you mention scott as an example of a superstar, then immediately say, "But seriously", what are you implying?
Just curious, Billy
i assume he meant that the title of superstar is handed around so whimsically that some novice kid who has never even played a real hand, let alone won a tournament, has fallen into the honor. and i agree with this and with his main point of the picture gallery.
scott
scott,
So what if you look like someone put a fire out on your face with a shovel! You could always submit a cut-out picture of some male model from G.Q. magazine, right? And besides, a lot of the people in Phil's gallery aren't going to win any beauty contests in the near future anyway, that's not the point.
All kidding aside, I think it sounds like a fun idea, go for it Mason!
where i'm from they put fires out with acid. i don't see a shovel working so well.
scott
I'd do the same but I don't have air sick bags for everyone. :-)
we have an awful lot of posters so the picture gallery might get huge. if someone knows how to make it work where posters can scan in their pictures and email them to the site maybe it would work.
It wouldn't be too hard, just add a page and have the posters scan them, either on thier own scanners, or a friends scanner, and for a relatively small fee, a phto shop or kinko's type place will do it and put it on disk. Then 2+2 sets up a special email address for people to send the pictures to, and the actual page for posting them would be very simple. Of course down the road you may want to get fancy and create links from the threads to the posters pictures and add profiles and that kind of garbage, but as far a page with pictures, it would be pretty easy to set up and a very nice touch.
Btw, I would be willing to scan a picture for someone if they wanted me to...it only takes a second, and the huge amount of helpful advice i have gleaned from the posters on this site would be more than enough payment for my time
Hope you guys go for it!
Good Day-
Mike Blair
Ray,
If the gallery ever did start to get huge, you could always break it up into sections like:
A-thru-H =====I-thru-Q=====R-thru-Z
Piece of cake, and it does sound like fun!
Regards, Jack from Long Beach
Or maybe instead of alphabeticaly (sp?) you could break it up like:
-Superstars -Up-and-coming Superstars -People who think they are Superstars,but really aren't -Everybody else
or maybe you could break it up into nude/non-nude, or w/biosuit, w/o biosuit...whatever. I'll leave these tough decisions to you guys
Mike blair
Stupid hats, sweat pants, nude shots, college brats - and all the rest. :-)
X
Rounder is right - I volunteered. I will start it, and if 2+2 likes it, I will turn it over to them.
Send your photos, in good taste of course, to me, at Dick@annabelles-treasures.com, and I will post them! Lady Gambler, of the soft 36-24-34, you are exempt from the "good taste" rule, and I will post anything you send. I might put on a password if legally required.
Seriously, I am glad to start the photo gallery. Send me your pictures, and I will start this.
No photos yet (Lady Gambler please send), my page is at
http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/
Dick
OK Dick I'll be the 1st.
Well then, I guess I'll be the second. My picture is floating through cyberspace to dick at this very moment. In case anybody cares, that beautiful woman on my right is my wife (the picture is from the night before our wedding). I hope everybody sends thier pictures soon, I can't wait to see what all of you people look like.
Thanks Dick!
Mike Blair
cant wait to see what you look like Mike. i hope more posters do the same. i would also like to get a look at what that crazy guy Paul Feeney that i hate so much looks like so i can duck away from him if i ever get in the same building. good luck to all.
Milton,
I would like to see a picture of Lucy Lawndale and see if he/she/it is an improvement over Louie Lawndale. Also Vince Lepore and his new online friend "Lady Gambler". I wonder if she is even half as sexy looking as she implies.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
That Lucy Landale post you refer to cracked me up.
Ron
Rick,
If you take the bathroom shot, I'll take the outhouse shot.
paul
Rick,
How about writing a novel titled "The Unraveling of Lady Gambler's Mystery"!!!
Guess you'll just have to wonder. I bet you Big John put you into this so Badger can win the game of "Hide and Seek". The prize is just too high for him to win the game so easy.
Anyway, as a concession, how about doing it in inches. Mine is a soft 36",24",34", what's yours?
Lady Gambler,
I haven't met Big John yet but hope to this weekend. I also think Badger wants you for himself. Anyway, I barely have time to read books these days, so faagetabout me writing one.
Regarding inches, mine sort of varies. I only recall measuring it in one dimension and that was when I was a young adult. Regarding your 36-24-34: I'll believe it when I see it (and if I see that you are as advertised I'm sure my measurements would instantly adjust to fit).
Regards,
Rick
Rick I'll be at CP Fri - Sun maybe some of us can hook up for a cup of coffee. I'd like to meet some of you guys.
Rounder,
My student and I will try to make it Friday Night around 10:30 to 11:30 p.m. We will be at the bar, probably having one of Sy's famous martinis if he is working.
Regards,
Rick
Rick - I hope I'm still in the NL HE tourney by 10:30 if not I'll stop by the bar and buy you and the student a drink.
I know what you look like from the dork scene in Caros' tape. :-)
Rounder and Rick,
I'll be at CP Friday nite also. If there is a NL Tournament I'll be entered. I am probably going to play some Indo Pak Flash afterwards. (Assuming I don't make the final table at the tourney, of course) Normally, I'd be playing the NL Mex. Stud at the Bike, but I did want to meet the Ugly Italian and get a first hand look at his low variance game. Admit it Rick, when you read Ugly Italian, you thought I meant you. ;-) Mike, call me after you get in Friday and I'll come in early and we can grab a bite or something.
OK John - but I resent the ugly Italian remark - It's big and ugly try to get it right. :-)
I get in at 5 pm or so - and am hoping to enter the NL HE tourney that night.
But time for a burger.
You gentlemen are so brainy and so witty
So I've decided to let you be
Once in a while, I might drop by
To see what's happened in the while
Who knows, Rick might still be on the run
Or Badger might still be looking for fun
Or Vince, dear Vince who started all the commotion
Or Rounder, sweet Rounder who's always so stubborn
I will not forget small caps scott either
Nor Big John who never gave me a breather
And to anybody who I forgot to mention
Bye one, bye all, I love you all.
xx
Dear Ms.Gambler,
36" 24" 34" that sounds fine from the neck down,but?
36,24,34? That doesn't even add up to Rick's age.
36,24,34? I get it. IQ,Teeth,Age. From WV, Huh?
36,24,34? O.K., O.K. Chest, Waist uH, oh what's below the waist? Seems I remember that.
36,24,34 O.K., O.K. O.Kayyyy. They add up very nicely in my book. And she plays poker too! Now if she could only love "Dom Deluise". Yep, thats'a me; short, fat, bald and Italian!
Vince.
why can't people post to post that they mean to?
scott
Now I know you're trying to tell us something.
Regards, Connie
how's this:
why can't people post to the post that they mean to?
scott
Sounds awfully familiar. But give it another try,they say "three times a charm."
ok, here's the long version. several posters post their responses to the wrong post in a thread. people read the responses to the first post and then post thier response to the last one that they read instead of going back to the original post. if you still don't understand i must be losing my mind.
scott
So what this should be th e biggest mistake any of us ever make - you sound like my 19 year old - he is a brat too.
if it was important, i wouldn't have put it in the other topics forum.
scott
the stick up your ass has a stick up its ass
scott has gone out of his way to be subservient to you old guys, just because have have trouble interpreting english doesn't mean you should call him a brat.
Where I come from calling a youngster a brat is a term of endearment. After all I said like my son and if you read this BB you have to know I am a family man devoted to my wife and kids.
:-)
You mean "where they mean to" not "that they mean to". You're in college? You must love your English Lit. courses.
my english, especially on-line, is not above reproach. but i do not think you have hit upon one of my many errors.
scott
small caps scott,
I'm not 100% sure what you mean. Would David Sklansky be an example in his response under mine in the following thread from the General Poker Theory Message Index? It implied that I was the one who misunderstood his point. I like to think I am very understanding :-).
Regards,
Rick
Start Message Index Clip
Posted by: Sally Chen
Posted on: Saturday, 21 August 1999, at 1:09 a.m.
Posted by: Frank
Posted on: Saturday, 21 August 1999, at 5:21 a.m.
Posted by: Sally Chen
Posted on: Saturday, 21 August 1999, at 9:15 p.m.
Posted by: Sally Chen
Posted on: Saturday, 21 August 1999, at 10:00 p.m.
Posted by: Easy E
Posted on: Saturday, 21 August 1999, at 10:24 p.m.
Posted by: Frank
Posted on: Monday, 23 August 1999, at 3:31 a.m.
Posted by: Michael Hunter (mphunter@qnx.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 21 August 1999, at 1:17 a.m.
Posted by: Easy E (ezeriver@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 21 August 1999, at 10:25 p.m.
Posted by: Chris (cralger@jessopco.com)
Posted on: Friday, 20 August 1999, at 6:57 p.m.
Posted by: Michael Hunter (mphunter@qnx.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 21 August 1999, at 1:15 a.m.
Posted by: Jack L. (NH) (jrlavoie@mediaone.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 21 August 1999, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: James Flames (liquid0swordz@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 22 August 1999, at 1:00 p.m.
Posted by: Chris (cralger@jessopco.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 22 August 1999, at 5:27 p.m.
Posted by: kelly (kellyday@netgenie.com)
Posted on: Monday, 23 August 1999, at 8:41 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 23 August 1999, at 11:10 p.m.
Posted by: Sean (sean20th@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 20 August 1999, at 9:08 p.m.
Posted by: MS (Margol@obwan.net)
Posted on: Friday, 20 August 1999, at 9:56 p.m.
Posted by: Richard G. Poirier (shogeybaby@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 21 August 1999, at 12:48 p.m.
Posted by: ANDY (ZZSELENE@PRODIGY.NET)
Posted on: Saturday, 21 August 1999, at 9:35 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 22 August 1999, at 1:53 a.m.
Posted by: Robert Chandler (zx11stud@home.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 22 August 1999, at 12:30 p.m.
Posted by: Bruce
Posted on: Tuesday, 24 August 1999, at 2:31 p.m.
Posted by: Uncle Jimbo (genn_k@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 7:14 p.m.
Posted by: Bruce
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 9:11 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Van Zele (cjvanzel@eprendor.uchicago.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 2:05 p.m.
Posted by: steve wood (sjohnwood@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 23 August 1999, at 2:38 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 23 August 1999, at 3:03 p.m.
Posted by: David sklansky
Posted on: Monday, 23 August 1999, at 5:09 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 6:37 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 11:24 p.m.
Posted by: Sue
Posted on: Monday, 23 August 1999, at 7:49 p.m.
Posted by: Nagurski
Posted on: Tuesday, 24 August 1999, at 2:42 p.m.
Posted by: Sue
Posted on: Tuesday, 24 August 1999, at 7:52 p.m.
Posted by: Nagurski
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 10:01 a.m.
Posted by: Steve Connell (texoldham@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 9:42 a.m.
Posted by: Bruce
Posted on: Tuesday, 24 August 1999, at 2:02 a.m.
Posted by: kelly (kellyday@netgenie.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 24 August 1999, at 8:42 p.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Tuesday, 24 August 1999, at 4:38 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 24 August 1999, at 5:11 p.m.
Posted by: Straightflush
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 12:28 a.m.
Posted by: Easy E
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 5:37 p.m.
Posted by: zooey (zooey2@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 26 August 1999, at 1:45 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 3:44 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 24 August 1999, at 6:59 p.m.
Posted by: Jessica Vecchione (jessica1@ix.netcom.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 24 August 1999, at 7:33 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 24 August 1999, at 11:36 p.m.
Posted by: Michael (mrmiam@webtv.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 24 August 1999, at 8:48 p.m.
Posted by: ScottW (scottw@avmltd.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 2:22 p.m.
Posted by: Uncle Jimbo (genn_k@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 7:22 p.m.
Posted by: kelly (kellyday@netgenie.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 26 August 1999, at 12:24 a.m.
Posted by: Chin Music (nafs@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 26 August 1999, at 10:35 a.m.
Posted by: Uncle Jimbo (genn_k@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 26 August 1999, at 7:04 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Burke (techmanager@planetpoker.com)
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 3:10 a.m.
Posted by: mark (markba27@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 10:50 p.m.
Posted by: steve wood (sjohnwood@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 1:04 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 10:51 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 12:29 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 1:25 p.m.
Posted by: Jack Moon (unluckydevil@netscape.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 26 August 1999, at 5:09 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Stoker (jstoker@owc.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 1:11 p.m.
Posted by: ScottW (scottw@avmltd.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 2:21 p.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 6:31 p.m.
Posted by: Kam (a2chris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 30 August 1999, at 5:12 p.m.
Posted by: shack
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 6:51 p.m.
Posted by: Sean (sean20th@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 7:05 p.m.
Posted by: shack
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 6:28 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 2:26 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 25 August 1999, at 10:46 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 26 August 1999, at 3:58 a.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 2:20 a.m.Basic HTML
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Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (RLA48@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 7:46 p.m.Heading 1
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (RLA48@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 7 October 1999, at 1:45 p.m.
Posted by: Gary Ilson (groberti@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 26 August 1999, at 12:34 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 26 August 1999, at 2:26 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 26 August 1999, at 6:48 p.m.
Posted by: spadebrain (daniel68@jps.net)
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 1:16 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 5:10 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 5:14 a.m.
Posted by: Chris (cralger@mail.dnvr.uswest.net)
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 11:32 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 2:04 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 2:44 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 6:29 a.m.
Posted by: spadebrain (daniel68@jps.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 7:26 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 8:44 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 7:35 a.m.
Posted by: jaws
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 1:25 p.m.
Posted by: Correction!!!!! (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 2:08 p.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 12:59 p.m.
Posted by: jaws
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 1:32 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 11:41 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 12:13 a.m.
Posted by: spadebrain (daniel68@jps.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 2:26 a.m.
Posted by: BB
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 2:25 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 11:34 p.m.
Posted by: Michael (mrmiam@webtv.net)
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 5:00 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 11:28 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 11:19 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 2:33 p.m.
Posted by: kelly (kellyday@netgenie.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 6:07 p.m.
Posted by: debbie (debbie1@netgenie.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 6:11 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 11:59 p.m.
Posted by: Michael (mrmiam@webtv.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 11:44 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 12:32 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 1:47 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 1:49 a.m.
Posted by: Michael Hunter (mphunter@qnx.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 2:31 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 11:05 p.m.
Posted by: Calvin
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 4:33 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 11:08 p.m.
Posted by: Gronk (bongcrosby@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 8:30 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 11:12 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 12:11 p.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 12:22 p.m.
Posted by: crocodile jones
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 1:51 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 11:01 p.m.
Posted by: Grizzly Adams
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 3:40 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Z.
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 5:49 p.m.
Posted by: Zeelous Omaholic
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 11:39 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 31 August 1999, at 8:17 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 12:41 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 4:16 p.m.
Posted by: Regstar (kayg@home.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 1:42 a.m.
Posted by: Quan Phan (quanphan@netzero.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 7:34 a.m.
Posted by: huh? (jaymiz@usa.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 1:21 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: Sue
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 5:57 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 4:27 a.m.
Posted by: Sue
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 12:48 a.m.
Posted by: Brian Meldrum
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 2:47 p.m.
Posted by: yy
Posted on: Monday, 30 August 1999, at 12:37 a.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 31 August 1999, at 8:06 p.m.
Posted by: yy
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 4:31 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 4:56 p.m.
Posted by: chris downs (cdowns@bridge.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 10:47 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Mogal (mogalj@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 30 August 1999, at 9:11 a.m.
Posted by: Easy E
Posted on: Tuesday, 31 August 1999, at 3:42 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (CodeSavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 10:44 a.m.
Posted by: J.P.N (shuview@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 30 August 1999, at 11:58 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 30 August 1999, at 9:33 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 31 August 1999, at 3:48 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 2:36 a.m.
Posted by: Paladin
Posted on: Monday, 30 August 1999, at 12:50 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 30 August 1999, at 5:52 p.m.
Posted by: Chin Music (nafs@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 31 August 1999, at 11:26 a.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 31 August 1999, at 12:13 p.m.
Posted by: kelly (kellyday@netgenie.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: Moses
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: zooey
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 4:40 p.m.
Posted by: Poker Learner
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 2:04 p.m.
Posted by: Chin Music (nafs@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 2:22 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 11:10 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 3:03 p.m.
Posted by: Chin Music (nafs@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 4:00 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 4:15 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 6:27 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 11:14 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 4:53 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 12:09 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 12:02 a.m.
Posted by: Michael Hunter (mphunter@qnx.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 10:49 p.m.
Posted by: Sean Duffy (sean.duffy@bbs.goldengate.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 6:42 a.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 10:25 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 12:10 a.m.
Posted by: berya (aispi4@arrow.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 9:20 a.m.
Posted by: Frank
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 12:39 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Van Zele (cjvanzel@eprendor.uchicago.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 1:00 p.m.
Posted by: Maxwell
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 10:08 a.m.
Posted by: Maxwell
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 3:45 p.m.
Posted by: Rich Van Ollefen (rich_van_ollefen@mw.3com.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 3:07 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 4:55 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 9:08 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 4:19 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 10:49 a.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 5:18 a.m.
Posted by: carlos (quintero@mit.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 3:23 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 1:15 a.m.
Posted by: carlos (quintero@mit.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 1:22 p.m.
Posted by: chub (chubfitz@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 10:08 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 1:11 a.m.
Posted by: Alex (aab61@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 10:35 p.m.
Posted by: Scott Marks (smarks@rstcorp.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 9:07 a.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 11:55 a.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 3:06 p.m.
Posted by: Scott Marks (smarks@rstcorp.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 4:39 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 5:00 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 6:58 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 5:26 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 10:54 a.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 12:03 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 12:33 p.m.
Posted by: bh
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 12:58 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 7:48 p.m.
Posted by: Chris (cralger@mail.dnvr.uswest.net)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 2:37 p.m.
Posted by: Ron Kilmer
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 3:35 p.m.
Posted by: carlos (quintero@mit.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 5:11 p.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 10:56 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 7:58 a.m.
Posted by: Michael Hunter (mph@acm.org)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 3:53 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 11:52 p.m.
Posted by: carlos (quintero@mit.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 5:33 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 5:46 p.m.
Posted by: Bobby
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 5:42 p.m.Dear Ray,
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 9:30 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 2:09 a.m.
Posted by: Tom L (bradentontom@webtv.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 11:05 a.m.
Posted by: Michael Hunter (mph@acm.org)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 3:41 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 5 September 1999, at 1:06 a.m.
Posted by: Richard G. Poirier (shogeybaby@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 5 September 1999, at 7:21 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Sunday, 5 September 1999, at 9:13 a.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 5 September 1999, at 10:07 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 6:00 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 6:16 a.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 1:42 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 4:35 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 6:03 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 12:14 a.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 11:00 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 11:12 p.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 12:31 p.m.
Posted by: Vince
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 2:36 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 9:18 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 11:40 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 12:33 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 12:59 p.m.
Posted by: Bob Sherwood (RobertSherwood@webtv.net)
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 9:50 a.m.
Posted by: Steve (fiete@my-deja.com)
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 11:26 a.m.
Posted by: Betelgeuse
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 1:50 p.m.
Posted by: suspicious
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 8:59 p.m.
Posted by: Richard G. Poirier (shogeybaby@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 11:27 a.m.
Posted by: notartbell
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 2:20 p.m.
Posted by: L
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 6:50 p.m.
Posted by: kelly (kellyday@netgenie.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 2:02 p.m.
Posted by: Richard G. Poirier (shogeybaby@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 5:41 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 1:23 a.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 5:45 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 6:00 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 9:09 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 11:36 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 12:37 a.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 11:41 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 1:22 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 1:13 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 9:57 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 5:30 p.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 4:02 a.m.
Posted by: Chris Van Zele (cjvanzel@eprendor.uchicago.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 12:56 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 9:16 a.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 6:16 p.m.
Posted by: Frank
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 9:58 a.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 12:59 p.m.
Posted by: Easy E (easy_e0665@my-deja.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 1:19 p.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 3:30 p.m.
Posted by: Frank
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 10:11 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (CodeSavvy@acm.org)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 2:16 p.m.
Posted by: Chris (cralger@mail.dnvr.uswest.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 2:09 p.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 3:51 p.m.
Posted by: Chris (cralger@mail.dnvr.uswest.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 6:34 p.m.
Posted by: Easy E (easy_e0665@my-deja.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 12:16 p.m.
Posted by: carlos (quintero@mit.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 5:59 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 2:36 p.m.
Posted by: WantToLearn
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 6:09 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 9:35 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 11:41 p.m.
Posted by: Darren (Dragon124@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 4:39 a.m.
Posted by: Phat Mack (phay_mack@bigfoot.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 7:46 p.m.
Posted by: Gas-Mask (suprof@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 5:31 a.m.
Posted by: George (grdropshot@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 5:52 a.m.
Posted by: Whitehackle
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 11:41 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 11:57 a.m.
Posted by: winner
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 11:39 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 7:35 p.m.
Posted by: jaws
Posted on: Saturday, 11 September 1999, at 3:07 p.m.
Posted by: Michael Hunter (mphunter@qnx.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 5:29 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 11 September 1999, at 6:09 p.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 12 September 1999, at 12:45 p.m.
Posted by: Don
Posted on: Sunday, 12 September 1999, at 9:08 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 12 September 1999, at 10:07 p.m.
Posted by: Don
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 1:24 a.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 7:19 a.m.
Posted by: Don
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 10:15 a.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 3:20 p.m.
Posted by: Robert (r_sch@msn.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 12 September 1999, at 5:15 p.m.
Posted by: Chris (cralger@mail.dnvr.uswest.net)
Posted on: Monday, 13 September 1999, at 6:27 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Monday, 13 September 1999, at 2:10 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Z.
Posted on: Monday, 13 September 1999, at 3:17 p.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 12 September 1999, at 9:04 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 13 September 1999, at 5:18 a.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Monday, 13 September 1999, at 10:33 a.m.
Posted by: Michael Turley (turley@geotec.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 12 September 1999, at 9:48 p.m.
Posted by: Robert (r_sch@msn.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 12 September 1999, at 10:16 p.m.
Posted by: scott
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 1:37 p.m.
Posted by: Michael Turley (turley@geotec.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 11:23 p.m.
Posted by: Jack L. (NH) (jrlavoie@mediaone.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 12 September 1999, at 10:55 p.m.
Posted by: Joe"predator"Nardo
Posted on: Monday, 13 September 1999, at 2:16 p.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Monday, 13 September 1999, at 2:46 p.m.
Posted by: Alex (aaleef@prodigy.net)
Posted on: Monday, 13 September 1999, at 3:52 p.m.
Posted by: Alex (aaleef@prodigy.net)
Posted on: Monday, 13 September 1999, at 4:12 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 7:23 a.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 8:48 p.m.
Posted by: Kerbernes Kid
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 7:33 a.m.
Posted by: Mr.Lockhart (apoker1@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 1 October 1999, at 5:59 a.m.
Posted by: Michael Bacarella
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 10:23 a.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 12:56 p.m.
Posted by: Easy E (easy_e0665@my-deja.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 2:16 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 6:41 p.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 8:23 p.m.
Posted by: Michael Bacarella
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 10:46 a.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 3:07 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 12:33 a.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 5:40 p.m.
Posted by: Michael Bacarella
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 10:29 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 11:23 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 4:46 a.m.
Posted by: Steve
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 10:56 a.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 6:38 p.m.
Posted by: mark (markba27@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 12:00 a.m.
Posted by: john reynolds (jjrbk@interport.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 4:01 p.m.
Posted by: Chris (cralger@mail.dnvr.uswest.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 5:31 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 8:32 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 4:46 a.m.
Posted by: Zooey (zooey2@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 4:47 p.m.
Posted by: Juan Carlos (juanco@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 9:33 p.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 10:40 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 12:21 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 2:19 a.m.
Posted by: vader (vader@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 5:22 a.m.
Posted by: ParadisePoker (paradisepoker@paradisepoker.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 2:51 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 9:24 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 12:21 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 4:17 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 4:43 p.m.
Posted by: mark (markba27@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 11:52 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 1:25 a.m.
Posted by: conform (conform@deming.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 6:43 a.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 12:32 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 2:02 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 7:49 a.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 9:09 p.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 9:35 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 1:18 a.m.
Posted by: Chris Van Zele (cjvanzel@eprendor.uchicago.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 2:02 p.m.
Posted by: David sklansky
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 7:57 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 9:18 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 3:21 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 2:51 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 10:51 p.m.
Posted by: thai guy
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 1:37 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 9:23 a.m.
Posted by: woodman
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 12:01 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Sunday, 19 September 1999, at 12:48 a.m.
Posted by: zooey (zooey2@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 4:40 p.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 12:31 p.m.
Posted by: peter spencer (speno@realmail.com.uk)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 8:34 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 12:36 a.m.
Posted by: DrToast (DrToast@concentric.net)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 4:04 a.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 3:42 a.m.
Posted by: Richard (LVS@sprintmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 11:14 p.m.
Posted by: Martin
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 October 1999, at 8:14 a.m.
Posted by: Bill (bmcd@televar.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 2:43 p.m.
Posted by: Chin Music (nafs@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 4:34 p.m.
Posted by: Easy E
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 11:01 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 4:39 p.m.
Posted by: Jack L. (NH) (jrlavoie@mediaone.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 7:21 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 2:59 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 10:29 a.m.
Posted by: ParadisePoker (paradisepoker@paradisepoker.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 7:49 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 10:33 a.m.
Posted by: ParadisePoker (paradisepoker@paradisepoker.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 4:21 p.m.
Posted by: Tom D (tomdv@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 September 1999, at 8:50 a.m.
Posted by: Paladin
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 7:54 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 8:15 a.m.
Posted by: Paladin
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 9:05 p.m.
Posted by: Paladin
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 9:07 p.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 10:34 a.m.
Posted by: Steve Connell (texoldham@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 19 September 1999, at 10:43 a.m.
Posted by: James Flames (jgrove@illuminet.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 10:04 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 10:35 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 3:22 a.m.
Posted by: Larry (Larry@dynatecusa.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 12:33 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 9:44 p.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabhan@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 10:47 p.m.
Posted by: conform (conform@deming.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 September 1999, at 9:37 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 9:34 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 3:11 a.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 11:10 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 19 September 1999, at 2:35 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 4:24 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 19 September 1999, at 2:58 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 19 September 1999, at 1:23 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 2:36 a.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 11:03 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 1:43 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 9:31 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 10:02 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 19 September 1999, at 8:13 a.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 7:29 p.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 8:10 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Sunday, 19 September 1999, at 12:36 a.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabhan@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 10:42 p.m.
Posted by: conform (conform@deming.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 September 1999, at 9:35 p.m.
Posted by: skipb (pokerskip@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 10:51 a.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 11:22 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 9:27 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 11:02 p.m.
Posted by: Packerfan1 (packerfn1@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 11:03 a.m.
Posted by: Marcia (trawler@gte.net)
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 7:22 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 9:41 p.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 8:51 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 9:39 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 September 1999, at 1:41 a.m.
Posted by: anon
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 12:07 p.m.
Posted by: Martin
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 October 1999, at 7:55 a.m.
Posted by: confused!!
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 4:32 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 September 1999, at 4:44 p.m.
Posted by: shack
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 7:41 p.m.
Posted by: Moses
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 September 1999, at 8:24 a.m.
Posted by: Michael Hunter (mphunter@qnx.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 September 1999, at 9:50 p.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 September 1999, at 9:57 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 September 1999, at 1:26 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 September 1999, at 1:58 a.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 2:56 a.m.
Posted by: Juan Carlos (juanco2@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 September 1999, at 10:39 a.m.
Posted by: Paladin
Posted on: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 8:26 a.m.
Posted by: amb
Posted on: Friday, 24 September 1999, at 10:15 p.m.
Posted by: Randy (rmitchcoll@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 September 1999, at 11:03 p.m.
Posted by: trr
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 September 1999, at 2:16 p.m.
Posted by: Mr.Lockhart (apoker1@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 1 October 1999, at 5:50 a.m.
Posted by: KOunter
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 September 1999, at 2:25 p.m.
Posted by: scott
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 September 1999, at 4:04 p.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 September 1999, at 4:38 p.m.
Posted by: XQSME (annika-daniel@swipnet.se)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 September 1999, at 9:23 p.m.
Posted by: Hennie Meijer (HennieMeij@cs.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 7:55 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 8:04 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 9:48 p.m.
Posted by: Richard Fakhry (fakhry@chariot.net.au)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 4:13 a.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (RLA48@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 3:47 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 9:46 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Friday, 24 September 1999, at 11:10 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Friday, 24 September 1999, at 9:02 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 9:09 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 9:28 p.m.
Posted by: Bill (BEntenman@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 September 1999, at 9:45 a.m.
Posted by: Easy E
Posted on: Friday, 24 September 1999, at 1:38 p.m.
Posted by: short-stack
Posted on: Monday, 27 September 1999, at 4:40 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 September 1999, at 8:54 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 4:29 a.m.
Posted by: Dice
Posted on: Friday, 24 September 1999, at 4:14 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 24 September 1999, at 8:21 p.m.
Posted by: Bill D.
Posted on: Sunday, 26 September 1999, at 9:51 p.m.
Posted by: jj (johnjomp@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 September 1999, at 5:12 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 27 September 1999, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 September 1999, at 2:44 p.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 1:39 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 4:48 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 12:21 p.m.
Posted by: Hennie Meijer (HennieMeij@cs.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 September 1999, at 6:34 a.m.
Posted by: short-stack
Posted on: Monday, 27 September 1999, at 4:02 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (RLA48@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 September 1999, at 4:12 p.m.
Posted by: bgoomba
Posted on: Monday, 27 September 1999, at 10:11 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 4:45 a.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (RLA48@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 10:30 a.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (RLA48@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 10:33 a.m.
Posted by: skp (skpspadmanabhan@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 8:22 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (RLA48@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 2:43 p.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 2:51 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (RLA48@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 4:05 p.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 4:36 p.m.
Posted by: Martin
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 October 1999, at 7:47 a.m.
Posted by: short-stack
Posted on: Monday, 27 September 1999, at 4:46 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 September 1999, at 5:53 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 8:38 a.m.
Posted by: Bruce
Posted on: Monday, 27 September 1999, at 6:50 p.m.
Posted by: JJ (johnjomp@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 September 1999, at 7:17 p.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 10:43 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 September 1999, at 8:48 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 1:53 a.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 4:39 a.m.
Posted by: JJ (johnjomp@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 6:47 a.m.
Posted by: short-stack
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 8:31 a.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 12:35 p.m.
Posted by: Bruce
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 3:52 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 September 1999, at 4:04 a.m.
Posted by: short-stack
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 September 1999, at 8:57 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 September 1999, at 2:26 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 September 1999, at 9:00 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 September 1999, at 2:24 a.m.
Posted by: Bruce
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 September 1999, at 2:07 p.m.
Posted by: David J.
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 September 1999, at 10:44 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 September 1999, at 2:15 a.m.
Posted by: Herfinator (kzarifes@ea.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 6:12 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 September 1999, at 2:28 a.m.
Posted by: chris downs (cdowns@bridge.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 September 1999, at 12:24 p.m.
Posted by: Jeremy (jpfeifer@soleil.acomp.usf.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 27 September 1999, at 9:43 p.m.
Posted by: trr
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 12:37 p.m.
Posted by: Randy Collack (rmitchcoll@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 September 1999, at 11:02 p.m.
Posted by: TSR (tim1970@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 10:27 a.m.
Posted by: lou (l.gibbons@mindspring.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 October 1999, at 1:12 p.m.
Posted by: L (cumboy@netusa1.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 4:05 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 4:59 p.m.
Posted by: jo
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 September 1999, at 12:34 p.m.
Posted by: jo
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 September 1999, at 12:32 p.m.
Posted by: jo
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 September 1999, at 12:41 p.m.
Posted by: James Flames (jgrove@illuminet.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 September 1999, at 2:22 p.m.
Posted by: skp (skpspadmanabhan@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 29 September 1999, at 4:56 p.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 September 1999, at 8:02 p.m.
Posted by: chris downs (cdowns@bridge.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 September 1999, at 12:30 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 September 1999, at 6:18 p.m.
Posted by: chris downs (cdowns@bridge.com)
Posted on: Friday, 1 October 1999, at 11:52 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 2 October 1999, at 5:38 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 September 1999, at 8:07 p.m.
Posted by: chris downs (cdowns@bridge.com)
Posted on: Friday, 1 October 1999, at 11:54 a.m.
Posted by: DeadBart (deadbart@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 1 October 1999, at 7:08 p.m.
Posted by: Michael Hunter (mphunter@qnx.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 5:55 p.m.
Posted by: Gary Carson (garycarson@mindspring.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 October 1999, at 1:06 a.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 30 September 1999, at 8:58 p.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Friday, 1 October 1999, at 11:33 a.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Friday, 1 October 1999, at 12:10 p.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 2 October 1999, at 2:04 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 2 October 1999, at 4:56 p.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 October 1999, at 1:13 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 October 1999, at 3:05 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 October 1999, at 3:47 a.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 9:35 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 8:20 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 4:09 p.m.
Posted by: Easy E
Posted on: Friday, 1 October 1999, at 2:00 p.m.
Posted by: Richard G. Poirier (shogeybaby@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 2 October 1999, at 9:14 p.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 2 October 1999, at 10:22 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 12:42 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 1 October 1999, at 3:18 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Friday, 1 October 1999, at 9:21 p.m.
Posted by: Jon Ingrisano (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 October 1999, at 5:12 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 October 1999, at 6:04 p.m.
Posted by: Joe (shuview@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 1:23 a.m.
Posted by: Joe (shuview@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 1:31 a.m.
Posted by: Packerfan1 (packerfn1@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 10:16 a.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 10:53 a.m.
Posted by: P.F. Hauso (winfall@webtv.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 9 October 1999, at 12:20 a.m.
Posted by: P.F. Hauso (winfall@webtv.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 9 October 1999, at 12:21 a.m.
Posted by: Kevin Prigge (klp@tc.umn.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 2:08 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 2 October 1999, at 4:26 a.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 October 1999, at 4:51 a.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 October 1999, at 4:52 a.m.
Posted by: John Tyler
Posted on: Sunday, 3 October 1999, at 4:56 p.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 3 October 1999, at 11:16 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 1:35 a.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 10:49 a.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 7:46 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 1:38 a.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 10:29 a.m.
Posted by: Chris (cralger@mail.dnvr.uswest.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 1:29 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 4:23 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 4:32 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 10:39 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 10:57 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 11:53 a.m.
Posted by: Einstein
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 1:19 a.m.
Posted by: Chris (cralger@mail.dnvr.uswest.net)
Posted on: Friday, 8 October 1999, at 7:38 p.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 1:38 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 2:40 p.m.
Posted by: JJ (johnjomp@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 12:37 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 12:49 p.m.
Posted by: Randy Collack (rmitchcoll@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 1:44 p.m.
Posted by: Dice
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 10:41 a.m.
Posted by: Randy Collack (rmitchcoll@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 1:36 p.m.
Posted by: Pappy
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 4:44 p.m.
Posted by: Gary Carson (garycarson@mindspring.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 October 1999, at 12:54 a.m.
Posted by: carlos (quintero@mit.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 2:25 p.m.
Posted by: woodman
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 2:38 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 2:52 p.m.
Posted by: Bill D.
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 3:01 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 3:33 p.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 3:57 p.m.
Posted by: Tom D (tomdv@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 10 October 1999, at 7:18 a.m.
Posted by: TD
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 3:16 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 3:45 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 8:08 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 6 October 1999, at 12:11 p.m.
Posted by: C. Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 10 October 1999, at 10:20 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 6 October 1999, at 1:02 p.m.
Posted by: short-stack
Posted on: Monday, 4 October 1999, at 7:25 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Z.
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 11:55 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Z.
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 11:58 a.m.
Posted by: Sean (sean20th@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 2:14 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 3:51 p.m.
Posted by: Chuck
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 8:44 p.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 7 October 1999, at 1:09 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 October 1999, at 5:16 p.m.
Posted by: hungryman (r_sch@msn.com)
Posted on: Friday, 8 October 1999, at 4:48 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 8 October 1999, at 5:36 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 9 October 1999, at 7:53 a.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 9 October 1999, at 4:36 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 9 October 1999, at 5:48 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 8 October 1999, at 5:58 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Friday, 8 October 1999, at 9:10 p.m.
Posted by: Jon Ingrisano (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 10 October 1999, at 9:33 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Monday, 11 October 1999, at 12:04 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Monday, 11 October 1999, at 10:56 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Monday, 11 October 1999, at 5:24 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Monday, 11 October 1999, at 7:43 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 October 1999, at 1:33 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 October 1999, at 2:58 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 October 1999, at 5:26 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 October 1999, at 7:13 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 6:59 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 6:29 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 14 October 1999, at 11:34 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 14 October 1999, at 12:37 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Friday, 8 October 1999, at 9:14 p.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 11 October 1999, at 8:33 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 October 1999, at 11:11 p.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 October 1999, at 10:18 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Monday, 11 October 1999, at 12:08 a.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Monday, 11 October 1999, at 12:14 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 11 October 1999, at 2:38 a.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Monday, 11 October 1999, at 12:19 a.m.
Posted by: Walter Hutchison (whutch@aristotle.net)
Posted on: Monday, 11 October 1999, at 2:11 p.m.
Posted by: Poker Nerd
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 October 1999, at 3:38 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 October 1999, at 11:52 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 10:50 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 October 1999, at 5:21 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 October 1999, at 5:27 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 October 1999, at 11:00 p.m.
Posted by: Sean (sean20th@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 October 1999, at 8:13 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 3:02 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 3:15 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 11:51 a.m.
Posted by: Chuck C.
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 4:02 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 11:41 a.m.
Posted by: John (johnjmp@operamail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 4:06 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 10:42 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 October 1999, at 9:21 a.m.
Posted by: John (johnjmp@operamail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 4:10 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 5:10 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (RLA48@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 October 1999, at 4:06 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 9:23 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 11:13 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 12:38 p.m.
Posted by: chris H. (chollowa@uci.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 2:31 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 14 October 1999, at 6:06 p.m.
Posted by: gary (creepshow@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 16 October 1999, at 6:03 p.m.
Posted by: Holy (holybull2@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 4:41 p.m.
Posted by: Andy B (beerskeds@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 5:00 p.m.
Posted by: Holy (holybull2@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 October 1999, at 5:12 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 5:10 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 6:05 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 6:12 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 9:29 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 14 October 1999, at 12:50 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 October 1999, at 6:04 p.m.
Posted by: LAMentary
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 9:08 p.m.
Posted by: juj
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 October 1999, at 11:19 p.m.
Posted by: Dave in Illini
Posted on: Thursday, 14 October 1999, at 6:46 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 14 October 1999, at 11:24 a.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (RLA48@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 October 1999, at 2:36 a.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 October 1999, at 4:57 p.m.
Posted by: Zooey (zooey2@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 12:45 a.m.
Posted by: Frank (flof0001@unf.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 October 1999, at 12:22 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 14 October 1999, at 1:13 p.m.
Posted by: Richard G. Poirier (shogeybaby@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 6:30 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 10:47 a.m.
Posted by: Dice
Posted on: Thursday, 14 October 1999, at 5:35 p.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 October 1999, at 9:03 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 11:18 a.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 16 October 1999, at 3:01 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 16 October 1999, at 6:48 a.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 16 October 1999, at 9:46 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 17 October 1999, at 12:43 p.m.
Posted by: Iceman
Posted on: Thursday, 14 October 1999, at 11:19 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 7:37 a.m.
Posted by: Phil (pcazzola@interfold.com)
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 1:20 a.m.
Posted by: hungryman (r_sch@msn.com)
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 11:25 a.m.
Posted by: Chris Constantine (ChrisPoker@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 3 November 1999, at 6:35 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 10:02 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 11:27 a.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 6:57 p.m.
Posted by: trr
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 2:27 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 6:59 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 10:58 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 11:12 a.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 11:45 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 12:02 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 12:18 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 12:19 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 12:31 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 1:08 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 17 October 1999, at 3:37 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 17 October 1999, at 8:15 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (RLA48@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 October 1999, at 2:09 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 18 October 1999, at 11:44 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 October 1999, at 2:34 a.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (RLA48@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 4:11 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 4:43 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (RLA48@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 17 October 1999, at 12:14 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 17 October 1999, at 12:35 p.m.
Posted by: Big D
Posted on: Friday, 15 October 1999, at 7:28 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (CodeSavvy@acm.org)
Posted on: Sunday, 17 October 1999, at 9:21 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 17 October 1999, at 10:05 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (CodeSavvy@acm.org)
Posted on: Sunday, 17 October 1999, at 10:29 p.m.
Posted by: Frank
Posted on: Monday, 18 October 1999, at 5:06 a.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (RLA48@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 October 1999, at 3:58 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 October 1999, at 10:15 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 18 October 1999, at 11:24 a.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 October 1999, at 11:57 a.m.
Posted by: Michael Hunter (mphunter@qnx.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 October 1999, at 7:45 p.m.
Posted by: Holy (holybull2@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 October 1999, at 11:20 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 October 1999, at 1:15 p.m.
Posted by: Michael in NoCal (genn_k@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 October 1999, at 8:32 p.m.
Posted by: Mary (marymac211@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 October 1999, at 12:44 p.m.
Posted by: kevin concannon (concannon2001@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 October 1999, at 4:56 p.m.
Posted by: Mary
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 October 1999, at 1:54 a.m.
Posted by: Jeremy (jpfeifer@soleil.acomp.usf.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 18 October 1999, at 8:38 p.m.
Posted by: JPN (shuview@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 October 1999, at 4:19 a.m.
Posted by: Lefty
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 October 1999, at 10:31 a.m.
Posted by: Packerfan1 (packerfn1@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 October 1999, at 4:33 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Z.
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 October 1999, at 2:36 p.m.
Posted by: Tiny
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 October 1999, at 5:42 a.m.
Posted by: LAmentary
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 October 1999, at 11:58 a.m.
Posted by: Lefty
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 October 1999, at 12:23 p.m.
Posted by: Walter Hutchison (whutch@aristotle.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 October 1999, at 12:27 p.m.
Posted by: Richard G. Poirier (shogeybaby@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 October 1999, at 9:12 p.m.
Posted by: David M. (dmandell@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 October 1999, at 10:56 p.m.
Posted by: Lefty
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 October 1999, at 10:49 a.m.
Posted by: Easy E
Posted on: Sunday, 31 October 1999, at 1:42 p.m.
Posted by: Tony (JWrenn6@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 October 1999, at 1:47 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 October 1999, at 4:58 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 October 1999, at 11:23 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 October 1999, at 1:22 p.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 October 1999, at 2:17 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 October 1999, at 2:38 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 October 1999, at 3:35 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 October 1999, at 6:27 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 October 1999, at 11:17 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 23 October 1999, at 3:34 a.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (RLA48@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 October 1999, at 3:48 p.m.
Posted by: Richard G. Poirier (shogeybaby@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 October 1999, at 9:09 p.m.
Posted by: Holy (holybull2@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 October 1999, at 3:59 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 October 1999, at 4:06 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 October 1999, at 5:02 p.m.
Posted by: Richard G. Poirier (shogeybaby@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 October 1999, at 9:02 p.m.
Posted by: Wolverine (kronerj@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 October 1999, at 5:43 p.m.
Posted by: Mark M
Posted on: Friday, 22 October 1999, at 5:52 p.m.
Posted by: Dennis (eichhorn@math.arizona.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 October 1999, at 6:10 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 22 October 1999, at 10:13 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 22 October 1999, at 9:59 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 22 October 1999, at 4:18 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 22 October 1999, at 5:46 p.m.
Posted by: Walter Hutchison (whutch@aristotle.net)
Posted on: Monday, 25 October 1999, at 1:52 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 22 October 1999, at 10:07 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Friday, 22 October 1999, at 10:16 a.m.
Posted by: Harrison Bergeron
Posted on: Friday, 22 October 1999, at 10:27 a.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 October 1999, at 2:10 p.m.
Posted by: Big D
Posted on: Saturday, 23 October 1999, at 10:34 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 23 October 1999, at 10:46 a.m.
Posted by: Bob
Posted on: Saturday, 23 October 1999, at 5:16 p.m.
Posted by: Jake
Posted on: Saturday, 23 October 1999, at 5:52 p.m.
Posted by: LargeMarge
Posted on: Saturday, 23 October 1999, at 6:00 p.m.
Posted by: Jake
Posted on: Saturday, 23 October 1999, at 8:01 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 23 October 1999, at 8:09 p.m.
Posted by: Big D
Posted on: Sunday, 24 October 1999, at 1:26 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Monday, 25 October 1999, at 4:15 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 25 October 1999, at 4:57 p.m.
Posted by: Big D
Posted on: Monday, 25 October 1999, at 8:40 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 October 1999, at 1:50 a.m.
Posted by: David D
Posted on: Sunday, 24 October 1999, at 10:14 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 October 1999, at 2:09 p.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Friday, 22 October 1999, at 2:50 p.m.
Posted by: Easy E
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 October 1999, at 6:59 p.m.
Posted by: Dice
Posted on: Friday, 22 October 1999, at 6:33 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 23 October 1999, at 8:45 a.m.
Posted by: Shooter
Posted on: Saturday, 23 October 1999, at 1:51 a.m.
Posted by: Ace&Face (ace_face21@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 25 October 1999, at 12:42 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Monday, 25 October 1999, at 4:14 p.m.
Posted by: HIT
Posted on: Sunday, 24 October 1999, at 1:20 a.m.
Posted by: Dominic (dominic@bourke9.freeserve.co.uk)
Posted on: Monday, 25 October 1999, at 1:53 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 25 October 1999, at 3:38 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 25 October 1999, at 3:51 a.m.
Posted by: Hennie Meijer (HennieMeij@cs.com)
Posted on: Monday, 25 October 1999, at 11:23 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 October 1999, at 11:20 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 October 1999, at 7:23 p.m.
Posted by: kevin concannon (concannon2001@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 October 1999, at 1:44 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 October 1999, at 1:46 a.m.
Posted by: kevin concannon (concannon2001@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 October 1999, at 12:50 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 October 1999, at 4:18 p.m.
Posted by: Tiny
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 October 1999, at 8:07 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 October 1999, at 3:48 a.m.
Posted by: Steve
Posted on: Thursday, 28 October 1999, at 8:34 a.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 30 October 1999, at 3:53 p.m.
Posted by: Darryl DAZZLER Lanyon (lanyon@powerup.com.au)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 October 1999, at 10:27 p.m.
Posted by: Dominic (dominic@bourke9.freeserve.co.uk)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 October 1999, at 11:11 p.m.
Posted by: Darryl DAZZLER Lanyon (lanyon@powerup.com.au)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 October 1999, at 6:17 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 October 1999, at 7:26 p.m.
Posted by: Darryl DAZZLER Lanyon (lanyon@powerup.com.au)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 October 1999, at 11:14 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 28 October 1999, at 12:15 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Friday, 12 November 1999, at 7:42 p.m.
Posted by: Busy Z (bzentil@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 October 1999, at 2:57 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 28 October 1999, at 1:07 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Alger (cralger@jessopco.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 October 1999, at 1:17 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 October 1999, at 3:51 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 October 1999, at 9:11 a.m.
Posted by: Crazy Joe (Kronerj@Hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 October 1999, at 12:11 a.m.
Posted by: George
Posted on: Thursday, 28 October 1999, at 9:55 p.m.
Posted by: Easy E
Posted on: Sunday, 31 October 1999, at 1:40 p.m.
Posted by: Crazy Joe
Posted on: Monday, 1 November 1999, at 11:25 p.m.
Posted by: peter.cheung@crystalwebsite.com (peter.cheung@crystalwebsite.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 October 1999, at 1:04 a.m.
Posted by: Crazy Joe (Kronerj@Hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 3 November 1999, at 2:08 a.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 October 1999, at 3:38 p.m.
Posted by: hungryman (r_sch@msn.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 October 1999, at 3:41 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 October 1999, at 4:19 p.m.
Posted by: StrateMan
Posted on: Thursday, 28 October 1999, at 6:36 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 28 October 1999, at 8:21 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 October 1999, at 9:32 p.m.
Posted by: StrateMan
Posted on: Friday, 29 October 1999, at 12:59 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 October 1999, at 1:46 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Monday, 1 November 1999, at 12:37 a.m.
Posted by: The Player
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 5:44 p.m.
Posted by: Chance Harris (chance@globeset.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 October 1999, at 5:27 p.m.
Posted by: Michael Hunter (mphunter@qnx.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 October 1999, at 1:38 a.m.
Posted by: Erik (eespling@pnri.org)
Posted on: Friday, 29 October 1999, at 1:52 p.m.
Posted by: Michael (mrmiam@webtv.net)
Posted on: Friday, 29 October 1999, at 2:32 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 29 October 1999, at 10:46 a.m.
Posted by: Doc
Posted on: Monday, 1 November 1999, at 1:30 a.m.
Posted by: hungryman (r_sch@msn.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 October 1999, at 2:58 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 30 October 1999, at 3:45 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 31 October 1999, at 6:03 a.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 31 October 1999, at 7:24 p.m.
Posted by: Michael Hunter (mphunter@qnx.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 31 October 1999, at 1:34 a.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabhan@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 30 October 1999, at 5:44 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 30 October 1999, at 6:33 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 30 October 1999, at 9:16 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Sunday, 31 October 1999, at 2:38 a.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Saturday, 30 October 1999, at 9:45 p.m.
Posted by: Chris (cralger@mail.dnvr.uswest.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 30 October 1999, at 10:42 p.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabhan@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 31 October 1999, at 12:07 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Monday, 1 November 1999, at 9:10 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 1 November 1999, at 11:08 a.m.
Posted by: V. A. Kirk (VAKandCo@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 31 October 1999, at 9:14 a.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabhan@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 31 October 1999, at 12:06 p.m.
Posted by: GD (guy.downs@colorado.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 1 November 1999, at 12:50 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Monday, 1 November 1999, at 3:09 a.m.
Posted by: Larry (Larry@dynatecusa.com)
Posted on: Monday, 1 November 1999, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabhan@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Monday, 1 November 1999, at 3:07 p.m.
Posted by: MS (Margol@ianitrix.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 31 October 1999, at 12:36 a.m.
Posted by: C. Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 31 October 1999, at 1:53 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 1 November 1999, at 10:51 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 1 November 1999, at 2:11 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Monday, 1 November 1999, at 6:35 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 1 November 1999, at 7:26 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 2 November 1999, at 2:35 a.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Tuesday, 2 November 1999, at 3:40 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 2 November 1999, at 11:13 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 2 November 1999, at 1:27 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Tuesday, 2 November 1999, at 5:10 p.m.
Posted by: Ron Carey (a8skatedn8@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 4 November 1999, at 6:40 a.m.
Posted by: Chris H. (chollowa@uci.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 1 November 1999, at 6:10 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 1 November 1999, at 9:59 p.m.
Posted by: Pappy
Posted on: Thursday, 4 November 1999, at 6:05 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 4 November 1999, at 9:53 a.m.
Posted by: Pappy
Posted on: Thursday, 4 November 1999, at 8:07 p.m.
Posted by: Robin Phillips (shaft_247@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 4 November 1999, at 11:42 p.m.
Posted by: Randy Collack (rmitchcoll@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 2 November 1999, at 8:41 a.m.
Posted by: Carl
Posted on: Tuesday, 2 November 1999, at 3:02 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 2 November 1999, at 4:52 p.m.
Posted by: Carl
Posted on: Tuesday, 2 November 1999, at 5:09 p.m.
Posted by: AA
Posted on: Tuesday, 2 November 1999, at 8:00 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 2 November 1999, at 10:46 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 3 November 1999, at 2:24 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 3 November 1999, at 5:43 a.m.
Posted by: AA
Posted on: Wednesday, 3 November 1999, at 12:38 a.m.
Posted by: Crazy Joe (Kronerj@Hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 3 November 1999, at 2:17 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 3 November 1999, at 5:36 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 3 November 1999, at 5:45 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 3 November 1999, at 5:16 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 3 November 1999, at 9:20 p.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 4 November 1999, at 4:13 a.m.
Posted by: Brenda Wyatt
Posted on: Thursday, 4 November 1999, at 5:58 a.m.I don't care what you guys do with the forum but I would just like to say that I saw Ray Zee's picture in Poker Digest and I want to have his baby!
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Monday, 8 November 1999, at 1:27 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 11 November 1999, at 11:24 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 4 November 1999, at 5:58 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 4 November 1999, at 1:27 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 5 November 1999, at 5:26 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 5 November 1999, at 7:36 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 5 November 1999, at 10:22 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 6 November 1999, at 4:30 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Monday, 8 November 1999, at 1:44 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 4:00 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 10:14 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 10:50 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Thursday, 11 November 1999, at 12:28 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 11 November 1999, at 1:21 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 12 November 1999, at 5:49 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 12 November 1999, at 2:34 p.m.
Posted by: C. Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 4 November 1999, at 7:50 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 4 November 1999, at 9:05 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 4 November 1999, at 1:49 p.m.
Posted by: C. Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 7 November 1999, at 6:41 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 4 November 1999, at 11:13 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 4 November 1999, at 1:19 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 4 November 1999, at 3:57 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 4 November 1999, at 1:32 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 4 November 1999, at 2:53 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 4 November 1999, at 3:50 p.m.
Posted by: Killernuts
Posted on: Friday, 5 November 1999, at 2:44 p.m.
Posted by: Bill C.
Posted on: Saturday, 6 November 1999, at 9:04 p.m.
Posted by: Winston
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 3:28 p.m.
Posted by: kelly (kellyday@netgenie.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 11 November 1999, at 7:19 p.m.
Posted by: Flyin Hawaiian (beamana001@hawaii.rr.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 6 November 1999, at 1:32 a.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Saturday, 6 November 1999, at 2:22 a.m.
Posted by: Flyin Hawaiian (beamana001@hawaii.rr.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 6 November 1999, at 3:12 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 6 November 1999, at 4:35 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 6 November 1999, at 4:45 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 7 November 1999, at 11:50 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 8 November 1999, at 1:09 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 8 November 1999, at 5:05 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 8:13 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 10:40 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 9:46 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 2:06 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 3:46 p.m.
Posted by: cbmike (cbmike@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 9:40 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 9:54 p.m.
Posted by: Bathroom Fan
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 3:07 a.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 6 November 1999, at 6:59 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 7 November 1999, at 3:05 a.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 7 November 1999, at 4:19 a.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Monday, 8 November 1999, at 2:49 p.m.
Posted by: skeeter (rkr@well.com)
Posted on: Monday, 8 November 1999, at 12:52 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Monday, 8 November 1999, at 8:01 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 3:06 a.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 3:27 a.m.
Posted by: Bill (blipcon@nccn.net)
Posted on: Friday, 12 November 1999, at 6:59 p.m.
Posted by: C. Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Monday, 8 November 1999, at 9:46 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 10:20 a.m.
Posted by: C. Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 10:53 a.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 1:50 p.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 1:50 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 2:31 p.m.
Posted by: C. Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 7:34 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 9:46 p.m.
Posted by: Robert Barnsworth
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 6:21 a.m.
Posted by: Zack
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 9:21 a.m.
Posted by: Hoss
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 10:42 a.m.
Posted by: C. Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 11:03 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 12:23 p.m.
Posted by: Benny
Posted on: Tuesday, 9 November 1999, at 7:22 p.m.
Posted by: Sailor
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 12:31 a.m.Has anyone heard of a new computer game called Poker Night with David Sklansky which is put out by Interplay?
I am curious as to why Mr. Sklansky has donated his name to this product.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Posted by: goog
Posted on: Thursday, 11 November 1999, at 10:55 p.m.
Posted by: Doc
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 2:20 a.m.
Posted by: Burt
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 2:48 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 9:49 a.m.
Posted by: MJChicago (m7h1j5@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 2:02 p.m.
Posted by: Burt
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 3:33 p.m.
Posted by: The Player
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 5:40 p.m.
Posted by: Burt
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 11:32 p.m.
Posted by: The Player
Posted on: Thursday, 11 November 1999, at 2:56 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 11 November 1999, at 12:03 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 1:48 p.m.
Posted by: hungryman (r_sch@msn.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 2:36 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 3:39 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 4:36 p.m.
Posted by: AA
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 5:38 p.m.
Posted by: Earl (brikshoe@iquest.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 10 November 1999, at 6:06 p.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Friday, 12 November 1999, at 12:14 p.m.
Posted by: Gordy
Posted on: Thursday, 11 November 1999, at 9:58 a.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 14 November 1999, at 11:05 a.m.
Posted by: Gordy
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 12:52 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 11 November 1999, at 1:01 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 11 November 1999, at 8:48 p.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabhan@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 11 November 1999, at 10:35 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Friday, 12 November 1999, at 9:28 a.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Friday, 12 November 1999, at 12:06 p.m.
Posted by: Bill (blipcon@nccn.net)
Posted on: Friday, 12 November 1999, at 8:02 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Friday, 12 November 1999, at 10:43 p.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Saturday, 13 November 1999, at 11:32 a.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 12 November 1999, at 2:20 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 12 November 1999, at 4:54 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 13 November 1999, at 2:39 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 13 November 1999, at 3:01 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 13 November 1999, at 3:07 p.m.
Posted by: Jodder
Posted on: Saturday, 13 November 1999, at 11:34 p.m.
Posted by: Van
Posted on: Sunday, 14 November 1999, at 8:08 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 14 November 1999, at 8:24 a.m.
Posted by: Van
Posted on: Sunday, 14 November 1999, at 8:40 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 8:33 a.m.
Posted by: Van
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 5:46 p.m.
Posted by: Mike Blair (meblai@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 11:21 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Friday, 12 November 1999, at 2:59 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Friday, 12 November 1999, at 10:55 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 13 November 1999, at 4:46 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 13 November 1999, at 7:36 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Saturday, 13 November 1999, at 2:47 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 13 November 1999, at 4:46 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 13 November 1999, at 3:02 p.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Saturday, 13 November 1999, at 5:04 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 4:41 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 3:02 p.m.
Posted by: The Player
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 4:55 p.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 13 November 1999, at 4:18 p.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 13 November 1999, at 7:18 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Sunday, 14 November 1999, at 7:37 a.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 14 November 1999, at 10:10 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 14 November 1999, at 12:58 p.m.
Posted by: berya (aispi4@arrow.com)
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 3:27 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: berya (aispi4@arrow.com)
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 9:03 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Sunday, 14 November 1999, at 8:53 p.m.
Posted by: Mort Crantz
Posted on: Sunday, 14 November 1999, at 9:54 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Sunday, 14 November 1999, at 11:30 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (CodeSavvy@acm.org)
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 2:52 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 12:40 p.m.
Posted by: Scottro (scottro@neo.lrun.com)
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 5:28 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 11:55 a.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 5:40 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Alger
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 9:11 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 13 November 1999, at 4:21 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 14 November 1999, at 3:59 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 14 November 1999, at 5:26 p.m.
Posted by: George Feeney
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 2:53 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 9:45 a.m.
Posted by: Richard G. Poirier (shogeybaby@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 6:31 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 14 November 1999, at 12:52 p.m.
Posted by: C. Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 14 November 1999, at 7:48 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Sunday, 14 November 1999, at 8:47 p.m.
Posted by: C. Villalobos (zardoz@micron.net)
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 11:28 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 10:37 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 9:22 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 5:52 a.m.
Posted by: Mike Blair (meblai@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 6:57 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 7:45 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Friday, 19 November 1999, at 5:05 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 19 November 1999, at 5:25 p.m.
Posted by: vanollefen (rich_van_ollefen@3com.com)
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 12:10 p.m.
Posted by: Alan K (horseshoe3@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 1:19 a.m.
Posted by: berya (aispi4@arrow.com)
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 3:35 p.m.
Posted by: scott
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 4:35 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 5:28 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B
Posted on: Monday, 15 November 1999, at 10:14 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 2:57 a.m.
Posted by: Barney
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 1:29 a.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 1:41 a.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 9:44 a.m.
Posted by: The Pope
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 7:59 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 9:19 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 9:39 a.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 9:43 a.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 10:03 a.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 10:21 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 11:45 a.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 1:07 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 3:48 p.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 7:33 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 4:57 p.m.
Posted by: The Pope
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 9:14 p.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 8:50 a.m.
Posted by: Martin D
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 8:00 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 9:10 a.m.
Posted by: Martin D
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 9:10 a.m.
Posted by: Frank
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 3:48 p.m.
Posted by: Julio
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 7:23 p.m.
Posted by: Frank
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 5:06 a.m.
:-)
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 5:47 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 16 November 1999, at 7:01 p.m.
Posted by: Doc
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 1:49 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 8:15 a.m.
Posted by: Doc
Posted on: Friday, 19 November 1999, at 1:38 a.m.
Posted by: JJ (johnjomp@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 11:49 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 12:07 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 3:03 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 12:52 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 9:40 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 2:17 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 2:30 p.m.
Posted by: trr
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 3:35 p.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabhan@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 4:07 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 4:30 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 6:12 p.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabhan@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 6:50 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 5:16 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 5:35 p.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabhan@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 6:04 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 6:17 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Z.
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 6:35 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 8:10 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 18 November 1999, at 9:35 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 7:43 p.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 10:55 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 11:26 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Thursday, 18 November 1999, at 7:24 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 18 November 1999, at 7:59 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Thursday, 18 November 1999, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 18 November 1999, at 12:09 p.m.
Posted by: Jodder
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 3:10 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 9:32 a.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabhan@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 12:42 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (CodeSavvy@acm.org)
Posted on: Friday, 26 November 1999, at 1:38 p.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabhan@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Friday, 26 November 1999, at 4:38 p.m.
Posted by: Charlie Durham (MINDFLEX@prodigy.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 4:26 p.m.
Posted by: Dice
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 5:00 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 5:46 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (masonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 18 November 1999, at 2:17 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 18 November 1999, at 3:40 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 18 November 1999, at 4:43 a.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 12:51 a.m.
Posted by: Don
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 7:20 a.m.
Posted by: KOJEE KABUTO
Posted on: Sunday, 21 November 1999, at 7:00 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 21 November 1999, at 7:12 p.m.
Posted by: DBS
Posted on: Sunday, 21 November 1999, at 10:56 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 4:36 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 18 November 1999, at 3:43 a.m.
Posted by: Ron Carey (a8tskatedn8@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 18 November 1999, at 4:54 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 18 November 1999, at 8:56 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 18 November 1999, at 1:14 p.m.
Posted by: Ron Carey (a8tskatedn8@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 18 November 1999, at 8:45 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 19 November 1999, at 4:05 a.m.
Posted by: Kevin Palmer (kevinpalmer@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 6:50 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 10:15 p.m.
Posted by: Kevin Palmer (kevinpalmer@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 6:52 p.m.
Posted by: Richard G. Poirier (shogeybaby@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 7:57 p.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabhan@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 8:32 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 17 November 1999, at 10:44 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Friday, 19 November 1999, at 2:46 p.m.
Posted by: Todd (thrawn@compuserve.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 18 November 1999, at 11:28 p.m.
Posted by: Jack Koff
Posted on: Friday, 19 November 1999, at 12:24 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (CodeSavvy@acm.org)
Posted on: Thursday, 18 November 1999, at 7:15 a.m.
Posted by: Ron Carey (a8tskatedn8@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 18 November 1999, at 10:17 a.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabhan@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 18 November 1999, at 7:22 p.m.
Posted by: Ron Carey (a8tskatedn8@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 18 November 1999, at 8:24 p.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabhan@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Friday, 19 November 1999, at 1:46 a.m.
Posted by: Vin Baker
Posted on: Friday, 19 November 1999, at 7:39 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 18 November 1999, at 2:57 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 19 November 1999, at 6:11 a.m.
Posted by: Ken H
Posted on: Friday, 19 November 1999, at 2:20 p.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Friday, 19 November 1999, at 4:12 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Friday, 19 November 1999, at 2:29 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 9:23 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 10:17 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 12:22 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 3:43 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 6:11 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 3:18 p.m.
Posted by: Jon (JIngrisano@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 3:23 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 1:16 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 19 November 1999, at 11:39 p.m.
Posted by: The Hedgehog
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 11:19 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 12:19 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 6:55 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 12:23 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 12:49 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 1:07 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 1:12 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 6:09 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 6:40 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 6:43 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 6:08 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 6:30 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 9:42 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 10:43 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 21 November 1999, at 8:49 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Sunday, 21 November 1999, at 5:46 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 1:14 p.m.
Posted by: Lady Gambler
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 1:42 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 2:14 p.m.
Posted by: Lady Gambler
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 4:17 p.m.
Posted by: Lady Gambler
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 12:46 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 12:59 p.m.
Posted by: Lady Gambler
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 1:18 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 4:57 p.m.
Posted by: Lady Gambler
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 5:26 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 1:04 p.m.
Posted by: Lady Gambler
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 1:21 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 5:00 p.m.
Posted by: Lady Gambler
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 5:37 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 7:36 p.m.
Posted by: Lady Gambler
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 7:56 p.m.
Posted by: Badger
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 9:57 p.m.
Posted by: Lady Gambler
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 12:36 p.m.
Posted by: Badger (stevebadger58@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 8:31 p.m.
Posted by: Lady Gambler
Posted on: Wednesday, 24 November 1999, at 11:28 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 2:48 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 7:31 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 1:21 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 7:31 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 9:44 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 10:13 p.m.
Posted by: Lady Gambler
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 1:05 p.m.
Posted by: Zeealous Omaholic (trgibson@gibrok.idps.co.uk)
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 9:37 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 11:36 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 11:46 p.m.
Posted by: Lady Gambler
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 1:03 p.m.
Posted by: C.M.
Posted on: Saturday, 20 November 1999, at 4:06 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 21 November 1999, at 11:04 a.m.
Posted by: Charlie Durham (MINDFLEX@prodigy.net)
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 7:09 p.m.
Posted by: C.M.
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 11:36 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Sunday, 21 November 1999, at 8:46 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 21 November 1999, at 9:31 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 21 November 1999, at 9:40 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Sunday, 21 November 1999, at 5:55 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Sunday, 21 November 1999, at 8:30 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 3:28 a.m.
Posted by: Bill C.
Posted on: Sunday, 21 November 1999, at 1:00 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Sunday, 21 November 1999, at 1:54 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 12:02 a.m.
Posted by: Butch Bonemen
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 1:28 a.m.
Posted by: james H. (hansen@its.caltech.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 5:32 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 9:25 p.m.
Posted by: james H. (hansen@its.caltech.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 10:08 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 10:50 p.m.
Posted by: james H. (hansen@its.caltech.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 12:04 a.m.
Posted by: DjTj (tjou@caltech.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 12:07 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 12:17 a.m.
Posted by: james H. (hansen@its.caltech.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 12:22 a.m.
Posted by: noname
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 11:18 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 11:21 p.m.
Posted by: noname
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 11:39 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 12:24 a.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 9:14 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 1:36 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 8:04 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 9:30 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock (jeffysroom@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 24 November 1999, at 12:22 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 24 November 1999, at 12:27 a.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock (jeffysroom@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 24 November 1999, at 12:31 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 24 November 1999, at 1:23 a.m.
Posted by: Andrew Prock (jeffysroom@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 24 November 1999, at 1:35 a.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Wednesday, 24 November 1999, at 7:23 p.m.
Posted by: GD (guydowns@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 8:22 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 10:35 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 11:10 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 2:22 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 2:37 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 9:31 a.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 8:06 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 22 November 1999, at 10:46 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 1:56 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 7:45 a.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 9:11 a.m.
Posted by: Frank
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 4:53 a.m.
:-)
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 10:53 p.m.
Posted by: Bill C.
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 1:40 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (masonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 1:53 a.m.
Posted by: Randy Collack (rmitchcoll@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 8:11 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 10:08 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 11:40 a.m.
Posted by: thesilence (thesilence1226@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 November 1999, at 4:52 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 24 November 1999, at 1:33 a.m.
Posted by: Tom D (tomdv@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 24 November 1999, at 8:00 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 24 November 1999, at 8:35 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 24 November 1999, at 8:17 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Wednesday, 24 November 1999, at 10:19 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 26 November 1999, at 12:27 a.m.
Posted by: Perry
Posted on: Friday, 26 November 1999, at 2:26 a.m.
Posted by: Tom D (tomdv@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 26 November 1999, at 2:41 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 26 November 1999, at 4:59 a.m.
Posted by: Danny Dolan
Posted on: Friday, 26 November 1999, at 8:59 a.m.
Posted by: Tom D (tomdv@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 26 November 1999, at 2:30 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 26 November 1999, at 5:03 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 26 November 1999, at 12:20 p.m.
Posted by: Lucy Landale
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 1:38 a.m.
Posted by: Hy (Hschermer@Timeequities.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 24 November 1999, at 11:50 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 24 November 1999, at 6:58 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 24 November 1999, at 9:21 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 25 November 1999, at 5:07 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 25 November 1999, at 11:33 a.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Friday, 26 November 1999, at 2:42 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Saturday, 27 November 1999, at 1:15 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Saturday, 27 November 1999, at 3:52 a.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Saturday, 27 November 1999, at 4:22 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 3:43 a.m.
Posted by: Ratso (ratso222@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 December 1999, at 10:09 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 December 1999, at 1:18 p.m.
Posted by: Jujyfruits
Posted on: Thursday, 25 November 1999, at 1:05 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 26 November 1999, at 3:50 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 27 November 1999, at 4:17 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 27 November 1999, at 11:31 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 27 November 1999, at 10:00 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 27 November 1999, at 11:25 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 27 November 1999, at 2:22 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Saturday, 27 November 1999, at 6:42 p.m.
Posted by: Danny Dolan
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 12:53 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 3:28 a.m.
Posted by: Zack
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 3:59 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 8:09 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 7:07 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 10:14 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 10:19 p.m.
Posted by: Carl
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 11:25 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 10:03 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 29 November 1999, at 9:23 a.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Monday, 29 November 1999, at 2:01 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (masonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 1:50 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 2:20 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 12:48 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 7:54 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 8:02 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 12:54 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 11 December 1999, at 5:15 p.m.
Posted by: Lincoln Dunbar
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 3:36 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 4:19 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 4:28 a.m.
Posted by: Lincoln Dunbar
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 8:06 a.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 7:14 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 12:40 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 28 November 1999, at 7:36 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 29 November 1999, at 12:17 a.m.
Posted by: Milton
Posted on: Monday, 29 November 1999, at 2:47 p.m.
Posted by: Connie
Posted on: Monday, 29 November 1999, at 3:01 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Monday, 29 November 1999, at 3:21 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 29 November 1999, at 3:29 p.m.
Posted by: Billy
Posted on: Monday, 29 November 1999, at 3:53 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 29 November 1999, at 4:07 p.m.
Posted by: Jack
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 12:14 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 12:36 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 29 November 1999, at 5:51 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 29 November 1999, at 10:24 p.m.
Posted by: Mike Blair (meblai@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 29 November 1999, at 11:34 p.m.
Posted by: Jack
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 12:39 a.m.
Posted by: Mike Blair (meblai@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 4:59 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 6:10 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 4:52 p.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (Dick@annabelles-treasures.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 December 1999, at 12:05 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Thursday, 2 December 1999, at 12:46 a.m.
Posted by: Mike Blair (meblai@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 December 1999, at 11:27 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 3 December 1999, at 11:41 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 2:25 a.m.
Posted by: Ron H
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 4:47 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 7:22 a.m.
Posted by: Lady Gambler
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 12:29 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 1:41 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 4:50 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 6:50 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 8:53 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 9:25 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 December 1999, at 9:19 a.m.
Posted by: Lady Gambler
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 6:36 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 9:00 p.m.
Posted by: Randy
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 10:27 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Thursday, 2 December 1999, at 12:09 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 29 November 1999, at 4:01 p.m.
Posted by: Connie
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 1:17 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 1:44 a.m.
Posted by: Connie
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 2:19 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 2:29 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 4:43 p.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 4:49 p.m.
Posted by: AlexB
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 5:16 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 6:12 p.m.
Posted by: Dale
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 3:00 a.m.
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 4:18 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 1:38 a.m.
yes, that is an example. but it happens all the time.
scott
HUH?
Ernie,
Now I know that you know that he knows that we don't know, and even though he knows that we don't know, I know there is no chance that he's going to fill us in on what he knows, ya know?
Regards, Don from Orange County
Ernie,
He decided to let us know in his response to Connie, I stand corrected,(actually I'm sitting, but you know).
Regards, Don from Orange County
Now we both know.
does your 'he' refer to me or to rick? from the placement of your post and ernie's post i would assume rick. but from your use of the same 'he' to describe my explanation to connie, leads me to believe that i am 'he'. and that these posts were misplaced in the thread. which, i am sure you now know, was my orginal point.
scott
scott,
you're beginning to sound like Rounder when he defends his ranting's, so you might want to consider calling it a night, or two.
Ron
Jeezzzz scott,
It certainly wasn't my intention to irritate you. I just saw an opportunity to joke around with Ernie, if that's ok with you.
Don
Scott,
In David's case I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and guess that the cause is either a time saving measure, as he admits to a healthy level of laziness, or thinking on "another level".
In the case of most everyone else I see it as simple goofballishness.
And I of course never do it.
This thread sucksdidilyucks.
lets talk about some poker for crying out loud.
i'm sick of these "funny" posts, have non sense of humor, and live in a cardboard box in a a crampedup neighborhood.
alex
When I recently visited the Taj Mahal in NJ (it being my first big casino outing) I was struck by how silly poker players look. Not because they are mean, or ugly (although some are!!), or engage in a predatorial occupation, or wear ugly hats (some do!!), but because they wear sweatpants.
A grown man can not look serious in sweatpants. No one cool wears sweatpants, even cool fat people. Homer Simpson? nope The fat guy in the last episode of Seinfeld? nope
But somehow people just feel right sitting at a poker table with their sweatpants. Even in the poker arena, no one cool wears sweatpants. Amarillo? (nope, he's the denim and cowboy boots type), Doyle? nah. Scott? he's to poor to afford any pants, and seems to be contend with a grocery bag.
I've heard that if you win the WSOP and you have had a history of sweatpants then they take away your bracelet and give it to the runner up. A noble proposition I say, lets weed out those slovenly bums without any taste.
Now, I'm not against being a bum. Far from it. But be a poker bum with style. Be like Adam Sandler or The Big Lebowski, or me for that matter.
I've read essays that complain that bad dealers, cheating, high rakes, bad management, angle shooting, are all threatening to destroy poker. What about sweatpants? They are far, far worse.
alex
"Scott? he's to poor to afford any pants, and seems to be contend with a grocery bag"
i usually win, but those bags can get tricky.
scott
Nothing like a bunch of wise-ass college buddies to liven things up a little.
Thanks
AlexB,
Sweatpants are bad looking enough but the worse thing of all is an exposed buttcrack. When I work the floor in my section and see a buttcrack I discretely tap the player on the shoulder and ask him (it is always a guy) if I can speak with him a moment. He gets up and in doing so pulls up his pants. Then I make some phony escuse for taking him aside (for instance I may say he he was exposing his cards and suggest a better way to hold them). If the buttcrack remains after he sits down, I would use a more direct but still curteous approach. But I do hate to look at them. After all, I have to eat lunch too.
Regards,
Rick
I suggest you accidently drop something in the crack.
I think players wearing sweatpants are subliminally setting themselves up for failure at the tables. As we all know, sweatpants have small pockets, if they have pockets at all. How will they carry away their winnings? Hmmm . . .
Most people work hard during the week and they could care less what you think or what others think. They are there to relax and feel at home.
What about some pros you say? What about them? They wear sweatpants because they can!
just curious, is your name a russian name? berya sounds russian.
anyway, sweatpants make people look silly and dumb, if they don't care then its not my place to force them. Thats what they do in Russia. Nor is it my place to try to trick them into agreeing my views. Thats what they do in Russia. Feel free to disagree, this is America!
alex
Something tells me we won't see a dress code anytime soon at poker tournaments. I've noticed that a dress code is established at regional and national pool tournaments, with good effect. The men are required to wear dress slacks, collared shirts, and dress shoes. It looks real sharp, and adds a little respect to the contests. In poker it is a little incongruous to have some guy sitting there in old blue genes, a dirty T-shirt, a ten year old baseball cap, a scraggly beard, and bad breath; but complaining about smokers... Poker tables usually are occupied by people who look as if they just took a break from yard work. Of course I'm sure most of them have dedicated razor-sharp poker minds.
The TOC had a dress code for the final table this year.
Slacks and collared shirts. No shorts or t-shirts.
Don't know if the gals code but as usual they get away with murder so there probably was none for them. :-)
Hey is anyone sick of these stupid outfits worn at the tournaments. Dice earings, hats with cards painted on them, shirts with straight fulshes all over them. I think they look hokey and degrade the game a bit.
But that's just me.
If they do put a dress code for tournaments I will follow it, but I will probably become the biggest fish in the tournament since most recreational players will not be playing in it.
For the record. I don't wear sweatpants. Why? I have not found a pair I like.
AlexB,
"berya sounds russian"
It would only sound russian to a russian or somebody who knows who Berya was. Right? Right.
Also. If sweatpants is what turns you away from poker then this is what I'm going to have to wear. Why? To help you concentrate on your Columbia education and not the sweatpants.
P.S. saw your basketball team a couple of years ago and they really sucked. Good luck in your studies.
Berya,
Have always enjoyed your posts. Very well written. However, I am surprised to see a redundancy on your part in this last post. When speaking of Columbia U. and any athletic team, it is wholly unnecessary to use the word "suck". It is implied by the very subject of your sentence.
When I see the Ivy League scores come across the ticker I usually just deal myself another simulated poker hand.
Princeton basketball is (was?) the sole exception.
yeah, I know about columbia. A friend (Dan are you lurking here?) bet me that columbia would end up last in the ivy league in both football and basketball. It looks like i'll end up losing.
alex
i don't know duke only beat us by around 40. that's nothing. our team is pretty good. and we'll kill penn. you hear that, dan and maniac mark? you're going down. hard. and dan should post.
scott
As long as we're on the subject of the athletics at reputable universities, I thought I might add that the prestigious football team of the California Institute of Technology has been undefeated since the mid eighties.
I got to admit that poker players, who can't dress themselves well, are Gambling turn-offs. What type of Tourist wants to sit down with a bunch of Scumy Lowlifes who want to take their money? They can get that at home.
When I play the Bellagio or Mirage, I at least wear a nice shirt and slacks.
CV
If I were to dress down, and I mean really down, I would be afraid of looking like a local who is very experienced playing poker. If I dress modestly, like a tourist enjoying a vacation, I might be able to elicit more calls from those tourists. I wouldn't think that you would want the casino to look like one of your "hangouts".
A legitimate complaint, to be sure. However, of all the wierd attire that poker players seem to like, I have to say my most hated is the "sunglasses, baseball cap and headphones" look. A word to all of you who wear these accessories: YOU STILL DON'T LOOK LIKE A PRO!! You can wear whatever you want, but that won't prevent you from calling UTG with a J8s, or paying off someone who three bet the turn with your paltry overpair.
Opening up a new can of worms here, but I think you've inadvertently touched on what might be the biggest problem I have with HPFAP (otherwise a very good book).
Unless you read carefully between the lines, the book seems to give the good players as much reason as the bad players to play marginal hands, make marginal calls, and take risks that are awfully close to the line between good players and bad players.
That is the main reason why limit hold-em is my least favorite game -- both good players and bad players can come up with a reason why they should chase and why they should call with any old piece of cheese. At that point, the game becomes more of a crapshoot than any other form of poker.
It's quite ironic that a beautiful game like NL hold-em often looks so ugly when played in its limit form.
I will be out to the Bay area December 3 through 7. I normally play 20-40 holdem and lower. Does anyone have any suggestions to where I should play? Where are the best tournaments Saturday through Monday?
There use to be a page referenced on the 2+2 links that was good for this kind of thing. It was www.gocee.com/poker. I'm not sure why it was removed. It seemes to be kept fresh.
www.pokerguide.com/ba also has some good information.
The obvious choices to me are the Bay 101 and the Lucky Chances. Both spread 20-40, 9-18 and 6-12.
You will encounter abuse of foreign language at the tables and will have to ask for it to stop. The games are loose-aggressive.
The casinos are non-smoking which is a real winner from my point of view.
Good luck
15-30 and 30-60 or higher at Bay 101, no 20-40 lately.
D.
Hope you find the puzzle I just posted on rec.gambling.poker both fun and challenging
Can anyone tell me just what the hell is going on back there? I'm moving back to Ann Arbor next week (sigh), and while I know that none of the casinos now open have put in a poker room, I was curious to see if any of you have heard any more about this very, very pressing subject. If so, PLEASE pass it along!!!
Thanks,
Guy
No poker in Detroit or Windsor. Some good private games in the area, but only close legal establishment is Mt. Pleasent. Sorry, hear someone around here should have poker in around 6 months.
Please bare with me:
Do you know of a way I can keep the connection my computer has with this poker site intact, when I take more than 5 minutes to write a message. I hope that makes sense.
Thank You, Oscar
Oscar,
its not our web site its your internet connection set up. somewhere look in your hard drive for your connection. in its set up or properties there will be something that says to the effect== disconnect if idle more than 5 minutes. you need to find this and make it longer. this should i hope be your problem. if not ask someone who knows what the heck they are talking about.
Each ISP has its own "disconnect when idle" policy (mine is 30 minutes). Check with your network administrator before assuming the problem is with your system.
Oscar,
If you have AOL you hit KEYWORD and then type QUIK MENU and hit enter. Then this eliminates the sign off function. Iconize the quik menu screen and it will go down bottom.
paul
So I guess Earthlink has a different way of going about it then, Huh?
-Oscar
Look in your windows settings.
Modems -Properties - Connection
Disconnect A call if idle more then X minutes.
Set X to what you want.
QUICK MENU it's helps to spell it right
TWIMC,
Is this on purpose or is this a computer glitch?? It ruins the thread and Joe K posted in sincerity I believe. I don't want to say anything but could someone tell me how this can happen. I'll save my opinion for the outhouse walls.
paul
NEW: AAs - Odd play
Joe K -- Thursday, 2 December 1999, at 3:17 a.m.
NEW: Re: AAs - Odd play
robert chandler -- Thursday, 2 December 1999, at 6:48 a.m.
NEW: Re: AAs - Odd play
robert chandler -- Thursday, 2 December 1999, at 6:50 a.m.
NEW: Re: AAs - Odd play
robert chandler -- Thursday, 2 December 1999, at 6:48 a.m.
NEW: Re: AAs - Odd play
robert chandler -- Thursday, 2 December 1999, at 6:50 a.m.
NEW: Re: AAs - Odd play
robert chandler -- Thursday, 2 December 1999, at 6:48 a.m.
NEW: Re: AAs - Odd play
I thinki it is a software problem - see the times are not in progression.
Also I am showing all items as NEW which is wrong too.
Rounder,
Your right see message below.
paul
Internal Server Error
The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.
Please contact the server administrator, webmaster@twoplustwo.com and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.
I think Z hates you Paul and will do anything to Piss you off!
Vince
Hey Vince,
You going down to FW this weekend and beat Fossilman again?? I plan on going down probably Sunday. Z doesn't hate anyone he just gets confused that's all. Your right though that does piss me off when I see duplicates or octaplates like this one. Email me if your going either day I can always drop the Queen on Saturday, she had Wakefield on Thanksgiving. Flip This!!
paul
nt
TAYAL,
I thought of something for all u young angry lions that play together outside the casino. See if u can come up with a good essay on how to start playing poker in the casino. Since you seem to have the time and you communicate regularly I bet you could whip it up in a week. That way anyone coming on to the forum could be directed towards it. It would have to be approved by the Brass. That means Mason. Anyway just thought I'd throw it out there for you.
TOTC
paul
We could call it, "Young Angry Lions Against Doddering Old Buffalo"
i think the only young angry lion who has enough firepower to contribute anything substantial would probably be scottie. Niels has the firepower but has had trouble with regular bowel movements recently. So he's out the question. And I don't think I'm qualified.
i'd be glad to help though. One thing that I would like to see an essay on would be a categorical treatment of all new "crazy" casino additions (jackpots, killpots, bio-suits, etc.) and how best to combat them. Also, everyone has told me that if i'm interested in NL then Doyle is the only fellow to read. But there has had to be progress in NL, and I would super like it if someone would at least attempt a substantial description of it.
I've thought about it a lot, but don't know if my ideas have all been barking up the wrong tree.
alex
wrote about nl and pl. you should buy the book. and after you've read it, i want to borrow it. i want to try a pl he game with very low blinds.
scott
if i can figure out how to start playing in a casino, i will be gald to write an essay about it.
scott
Scott,
The casino near my grandmother's house is eighteen to gamble and they have a brand new poker room. I'm going to check it out over Christmas. If it's good, I'm thinking road trip sometime over break. It's at www.turning-stone.com.
Mark
I was reading in Hold 'em the story about the super young kid who wanted to play cards. Thought some of you aged fellows would enjoy hearing how when I went to San Diego to play a couple of weeks after my 18th birthday (being from maryland).
So, they checked my ID at the door. The first night, I had a giant rush, I mean I was knocking peoples socks off. I was playing 2-4, and must have been up 400 dollars at one point from a two hundred dollar buy in. People at the table were jeering at me, and after several big take downs, they told security to come over and check my ID again! My dad went with me the first night, because my mom thought I would get beat up or something or another. Anyway, he was just sitting there ( he doesn't play cards) reading, and at one point came over to bring me a coke. So there I was with 600+ dollars in front of me, the biggest stack three times over at the table, so one guy asks "that your dad? whats his game?"....so I replied without thinking "oh, he doesn't gamble, just brought me here".
I got the widest eye look I've ever had in my entire life, he must have thought that my dad was like the fagin in Oliver Twist, who prostituted his children to be professional gamblers. He wouldn't talk to me again that night.
Oh, the next night, I caught a frozen wave of cards. Everyone quickly became my friend.
alex
Well sonny I don't get the problem I wouldn't have.
I've left casinos many times with loads of cash and I don't need daddy to protect me - of course mom knows what a smart ass you are so she was right to send along some protection.
Wish you wipper snappers would grow up and do your homework instead wasting your time on this BB.
Rounder, I believe you misinterpreted my message, and I wanted to apologize. The title was meant to infer not that are not a good player, but rather that you are. The problem that you don't have is that you don't get carded in casinos. Sorry if the message rubbed you the wrong way, and I hope that you can find it in your heart to forgive me. I have tremendous respect with anyone with the discipline to make their living at cards, and hope that you don't really want my funny stories to leave the forum. In short, I won't leave Athens and will take the poison.
alex
As someone said this is a tough BB - no offense taken but make sure you guys get your education (I have 2 in College now) and worry about poker later after you made your mark in life.
I just watched the 1997 WSOP tape and saw, who is considered by many the greatest player of all time win it for the 3rd time. He is dead today at 42. A life time poker professional, a great, but mostly broke and high.
I've been there done that - and I'd give you the same advice as I give my own kids.
Get smart, get a good job and get a nice family.
Poker is a great life but you have to be able to afford it.
Attention All Eggheads Out There:
This is not poker related but a good poker player should be smart enough be able to figure out at least the second question. It was emailed to me today by a friend. I'll post the answers tomorrow but I'll be amazed if some of you don't get it.
"The following are two ethical questions:
Question 1:
If you knew a woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already, three who were deaf, two who were blind, one mentally retarded, and she had syphilis; Would you recommend that she have an abortion?
Question 2:
It is time to elect the world leader, and your vote counts. Here are the facts about the three leading candidates:
Candidate A - Associates with crooked politicians, and consults with astrologists. He's had two mistresses. He also chain smokes and drinks 8 to 10 martinis a day.
Candidate B - He was kicked out of office twice, sleeps until noon, used opium in college and drinks a quart of whiskey every evening.
Candidate C - He is a decorated war hero. He's a vegetarian, doesn't smoke, drinks an occasional beer and hasn't had any extramarital affairs.
Which of these candidates would be your choice?"
This was the email more or less. I'll change it a bit and ask you who are the candidates for the second question. Answers tomorrow.
Regards,
Rick
there are four political issues i have any interest in. i want speed limits higher, the drinking age lower, the gambling age lower, and drugs legal. it sounds like canidate b is my guy. i like whiskey. i respect (though i have never tried) the needle and spoon set. i often sleep until noon. definitely canidate b. and i hate vermouth. martinis taste bad.
and i have no interest in her abortion. it is none my goddam business.
scott
scott,
elaborate on "i respect the needle and spoon set". i think ny has taken you over. yea, being a junkie is cool. my 2 old college chums (now dead) thought it was cool too. guess they didn't respect it enuf.
for starters, it is at least mostly a joke. i enjoy life very much, and would not take a sizable risk of killing myself. for any benifit. beyond that, it is mostly admiration for the stark rejection of tradtional values that it symbolizes. basically, i am a fan of extremists. whether i agree with them or not. the only thing that i don't appreciate is moderation.
scott
You are in good company there. Barry Goldwater was no fan of moderation either, especially in the face of extremism. Barry probably took a drink now and again, but I doubt he did much, if any, mainlining.
Glad it was "mostly a joke". Actually hoped it was completely a joke. Anyway, I too was/am (somewhat) of a non-traditionalist. I had been in my share of protests (with people like Bernadette Devlin, Jane Fonda, Dick Gregory, Ben Spock, Ralph Nader, John Scali, David Schornburg, Mark Rudd). I was never one for moderation, but recognized that moderation had its place. I enjoy moderation now.
The drug scene really is not glamorous as it is portrayed on the big and little screen. It's a rat race. It's a daily struggle to survive, but I am sure you know that and will do what you want to do. Just don't think that the junkies even care if you have any respect for them. They only know 2 things; 1) they never intended to be junkies and 2) they only care about getting off; they must just to survive.
I hate it when I get parental; sorry
Rick,
All kidding aside, can you get me a date with the pregnant chick? I'm so lonely.
As for the candidate, I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't pick (A), Clinton's my man!
I think the lady was a queen of England.
And the 1 - 2 descriptions of presidents were actually well known and highly thought of presidents.
#3 the clean cut one never existed.
i think #3 was hitler
Correct. Then you should be able to derive the other two.
Rick
Mike,
Correct. Then you should be able to derive the other two.
Rick
I don't believe I have a say in the woman's abortion. Whether or not she has the abortion is not the underlying social problem, it's how did she get to the state where we are debating whether or not she has a further right to have children that bothers me. As for the second choice, I think I'd go with Churchill or Roosevelt over Hitler. But that's just me.
who cares who is churchill and who is hitler? who don't need the particulars to solve this problem. the point is that most vegetarians are evil at their very core. and that martinis are pretentious. i go with the whiskey guy any day.
once when churchill was drinking, someone told him he was drunk. he replied "yeah, but tomorrow i'll be sober. and you'll still be ugly."
scott
Churchill was only the greatest man to live in this century. He was quite a good card player too.
The exact quote is: Lady to Winston: "Sir WInston you are drunk" Churchill retort "Madam you are ugly and I shall be sobre in the morning"
he also was talking to the Lady Winston,
she said "If you were my husband I'd kill you" he replied "If I were your husband I'd kill me too"
He was a great man with a sense of humor.
If it weren't for guys like him we'd be speaking Russian with a German accent to day.
Cheers Alex.
it's "If you were my husband, I'd give you a poison drink" to which he responds "Madame, If I were your husband, I'd drink it". Get it right you ugly SOB
small caps scott,
I tried to respond to you above last night but 2+2 was down. You should be able to figure out which was Churhill and which was Hitler since you are right about vegatarians :-). The third is of equal stature.
By the way, in my youth I thought martinis were pretentious. In fact in my mind anyone who drove a car with a hood ornament was pretentious and I vowed never to own such a car. Things have changed me in recent years.
I think I woke up to the fact that I was pushing middle age when I was in Fry's (a giant computer & electronics store that has everything a geek could need from memory chips to junk food and pepsi). Anyway, I see this CD by "Beck" called "Odelay" and it is selling number 1 and has all these great reviews and so I think "I used to love Jeff Beck" so why don't I get it. I bring it home and of course it is this weird cross genre version of a guy I never heard and I stll haven't been able to get through the CD. Of course he is musical guest on SNL this weekend and is supposed to be some kind of genious. But not if you are 45.
Back to martinis. I too thought they were pretentious. But in recent years I have had the chance to have a vodka martini extra extra dry (no vermouth) at a nice place once in a while. When you get older try it and go for the Ketel One if you have the bucks. A martini buzz just can't be beat (at least legally) The right company helps also.
Regards,
Riick
i like jeff beck, too. i love all those ex-yardbird guys. but the newer beck is also good. get mellow gold, his earlier album. the first half of the cd is great. while i am pushing great new music, get lots of primus. they are the best band around. (jamesh thinks tool is better, but he is wrong.) primus's new album, called antipop, is in my stereo right now. their website is www.primussucks.com. they are so cool.
on martinis. isn't an extra extra dry vodka martini just vodka? in that case, i am no longer against it. that is how i drink vodka. but i do not call it a martini.
scott
scott,
Have a bartender add the olive or onion if you prefer, put it in a beautiful chilled glass, and drink it with a special person. Then it really tastes good.
Regards,
Rick
Beck is a genius if you're 36... So somewhere between 36 & 45 one loses touch with what is considered musical genius... This worries me greatly, I'm hoping this dubious milestone occurs closer to 45 than 36. Until then the Radiohead, Pearl Jam, Wyclef Jean & Beck albums stay in the CD Player.
A very worried and frightened,
rjk
keep em in till the day you die
And Beck _is_ fantastic, give him a chance Rick.
primus is better. is beck cool enough to have is website be www.becksucks.com? no. is beck the writer of the theme song for south park? no. is beck the antipop? no. well, primus is.
i gotta go with the antipop. beck is a lot of things but he is not the antipop. come'on rick, try primus's new cd. think how cool you'll look buying something not only new and great (like beck) but also not all over the radio (unlike beck). anyone can go and buy the #1 album, but only cool people know to buy primus. the cashier will think you're a muscian. pick a female cashier. in all seriouness, their music is really great. though you may like the brown album (the one before antipop, which is the new one) better.
scott
Actually I saw Primus a few years ago, supporting Rush. The dude came on to the stage and said "Hello, we're Primus and apparently we suck". I liked his attitude. Maybe I will check out an album or two.
Andy.
rjk,
I'm 45. I have a lot of old stuff and some new. Favorite semi-recent bands are the Cowboy Junkies, the Bodeans, Maria McKee (formally of Lone Justice), and of course Springsteen (Badger will like that). There is an obscure band called "Over the Rhine" that I like. I used to like a band called the Replacements that broke up. Other than that my taste is average.
Lately I've been listening to Bocelli (popera) and am getting into classical. In the meantime, my favorite songs are all on MP3 so the best place for me to listen to tunes is while I write.
Regards,
Rick
I have a wide ranging taste in music though it tends towards the rock variety. U2, Radiohead, Pearl Jam, Springsteen and, since I'm Canadian, the Tragically Hip would be at the top of my (long) list of favorite bands/musicians/composers. I like a lot of the urban music that's coming out these days, though that's probably just a pathetic attempt by a 30something white guy trying to be hip. I hope I never lose my interest and love of current music but I suppose this is inevitable.
Taste in music is only recently a generational phenomenon. Someday soon it may go back to the historical norm of people of all ages liking any given song. For example, my older sister has been listening to Metallica with her fifteen-year-old son. See also the somewhat fading swing and country crazes or, more tenuously, the recrudesce of disco (shudder).
"Taste in music is only recently a generational phenomenon. Someday soon it may go back to the historical norm of people of all ages liking any given song."
I'LL BOOK THAT!!!!
It is a fact that Canadiens make better music than Yankees. Period. If you're into the Hip, you ought to check out the Rheostatics (if you haven't already).
And hats off to Gordon Lightfoot, the best songwriter of the past fifty years.
GD,
The Yankees won the world series not the Montreal Expos.
Acid Forum Is Back!!
England had a few groups Beatles, Stones, Zeppelin, etc.
USA had a couple REM, Aerosmith, Joplin etc.
Canada ?????????????????? Three Man Group
Yeah, well you guys might have Bob Dylan and Bruce Springsteen. BUT, we have Bryan Adams and Celine Dion...
er...
NEVERMIND.
Yepp, I've checked them out. Interesting band.
He's the man.
Dan,
My brother Mike would talk to you about Zevon all day and nite.
The drug is PCP but it also erases everything else. Some don't get out of the van in time.
Paul
There's a special drug that is impregnated into the cloth of minivans which makes you lose your musical taste.
hmmmmm. I'll make a note to avoid minivans. I assume (hope) that this special drug will NOT be found in the cloth of Acura Integras.
btw, is repeated contact required for this drug to have some effect or will occasional casual contact also cause problems?
Good to see you back. Where have you been?
I was on a self-imposed holiday from poker. I found that I was playing 40-50 hours a week, not enjoying it, and getting further and further behind on any technical reading required to keep up with my field should I decide to go back to work at some point.
I kept playing because the money was very good. Then I hit a run of bad cards, and it reinforced to me how I wasn't enjoying myself and how much I had let slide in the last year of full-time playing. So I took a break, caught up on some technical stuff, etc.
I went and played a few times, but whenever I did I found myself looking at my watch, thinking about how much I'd rather be doing something else. Only lately have I started having fun with poker again, so I'm back to the grind.
Thanks for asking!
Rick,
Is candidate (B) Marion Berry from Wash.D.C. right? Or was it cocaine he was using?
Big D
Question 1 - I believe it was Beethoven who was the child born to this mother.
rjk,
Hopefully by this time next year my knowledge of classical music will allow me to figure out questions like this. A book describing the best and most essential classical recordings and the life of the great composers is on my Christmas list. I would like to get beyond Boston Pops, Bocelli, and Vivaldi.
After I posted this part of the emal it hit me that I may have unintentionally put up something that is a hot button issue. I love to discuss politics, but some issues are best left for ones inner circle. Anyway at least someone was able to figure it out. All I knew was that the answer to the riddle would be that if you chose to abort, we would have lost someone famous and it would go back a few centuries since health care was worse back then (this may be news for someone in an HMO).
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
This situation has an analogy to poker.
You can't look at the way the cards fell after you mucked to justify or condemn your initial decision. The underlying principle that you used in making that decision is what needs to withstand scrutiny.
Question #1: My recommendation would go considerably beyond having a simple abortion.
Question #2:
Candidate #1: Warren Gamiel Harding
Candidate #2: Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill
Candidate #3: Adolph Schiklgruber
It would be difficult to vote for any of them as they are all deceased. I believe that each man had deep flaws. Harding was also a compulsive gambler. I guess I would vote for Churchill, but I believe there would be many people better qualified for the job.
I haven't looked at the responses yet.. 1. You would have just killed Beethoven.
2. Candidate C - But you just elected Hitler.
Question 1: Since those arent' inherited conditions, then I don't see why, as long as she cares for her kids properly.
Question 2: Which one supports the policies I endorse? Hitler might have been a good family man, for all I know. I don't give a rat's ass about that. I want to elect someone who will support laws I believe in.
Dan,
Glad to see you are posting again.
I shouldn't have posted question one as explained someplace above.
I sort of agree regarding question 2. Jimmy Carter was squeaky clean but one of our weakest leaders. Clinton is sleazy, but times are good. I do think the economy does well for reasons apart from the government and I think he has been lucky not to have to face a great crises.
Roosevelt and Churchill were great men but times were different then. No newspaper dared photograph Roosevelt in his wheelchair. Today they remove the cigarette from his photo on a postage stamp. I hate pollitical correctness.
Regards,
Rick
Last night we had an interesting discussion at our 4-8 table. The woman on my right said there is no skill needed this game it is all luck and just about hitting the flop. Well, most at the table agreed with her, me in particular - she had $500 in front of her and I just won my 1st pot after mucking 30 hands in a row. She was telling me I should play more hands to win more money - I agreed of course - who am I to argue with a brillant poker mind like that.
She went on, the only reason she loses is because she can't leave when she is up. Turns out this entire table plays any 2 suited cards, all coupled cards, all Ax and most Kx and of course any pair, they have no respect for position because, it doesn't matter.
I agreed with all that they were saying.
I had most of her chips in front of me inside of 3 hours and racked up wished everyone luck and went home with 50 big bets profit.
I love Arizona.
I'm coming, Rounder! I'm coming in April! Keep a seat warm.
just out of curiosity, which casino?
Casino Arizona on Indian Bend and 101.
I wonder whether there are any kind poker buffs who could help me with this one:
I'm writing a historical novel set in Johannesburg, South Africa, in 1894. Unfortunately I know extremely little about poker.
In the story, my main characters find themselves in a high stakes poker game against some of the leading mining tycoons in the world. Eventually my main character has to risk his own gold mine plus all the business assets of his two young friends. Were talking stakes of about more than half a million pounds sterling. After a hell of a game, he wins the game on bluff alone and becomes the talk of the entire city.
I'm hoping that someone would be able to help me out so that I can describe such a game realistically and in detail. A game that would make the reader share the torturous tension of uncertainty, taste the fear of losing, and finally experience the stirring thrill of victory.
Any advice, tips, pointer, etc. that would help a novice describe such a game would be highly appreciated. Thanks for now!
Herman
well, I think the important thing is that dramatic poker hands for the "buffs" might not play out so well in a novel where people aren't neccessarily as well versed in the intricasies. What I would do is study the presentation of poker in film and books, and base your presentation that. For drama, I know the biblical poker movie is Cincinnati Kid, but Rounders has its moments, Maverick does also (if you're a sap) Oh, and if you're going for cheating, nothing beats the suspense of the poker game in The Sting (actually, although everyone there plays sucky poker, thats probably my favorite)
In literature the book that probably has the best and most exciting poker game is Burning Daylight by Jack London. It is very exciting but also very quintessentially London.
The general idea is that you have to decide the basic parameters of the game (i don't know much about the type of poker played in the late 19th century, perhaps five card straight?, perhaps five card stud?) Anyway, whether the opponents are cheating or not. Do you want your main character to exhibit poker savvy, or just tremendous presence of mind to pull of such a bluff?
could you name one of the tycoons Alex? that would be great!
yeah, you should name the tycoon alex. have him drink 3 beers and then virtually give his money away because he is so drunk. he should be stumbling around and putting his hand on people's shoulders and slurring his words. the other players can say 'how is he so drunk on so little alcohol?' then someone can explain that he is a pansy. and gay.
scott
"Lock, Stock & Two Smoking Barrels" has a few good poker scenes in it -- and one in particular catches that pit-in-my-stomach, I-can't-believe-I-lost-everything, this-must-be-a-dream" moment of shock.
Herman, is your book first or third person? The situation would play a lot differently if your narrator is omnipresent and can see the cards fall for both the hero and his opponent(s). A first person narrator who is playing and doesn't know what his opponent has until the showdown is harder to portray, but would probably play more dramatically.
Try "The Education of a Poker Player" by Herbert O. Yardley. The early chapters of the book will give you an idea of how poker was played around that time period. The book purports to be non-fiction, and after careful consideration I believe it mostly is.
Hi folks!
Thanks for the feedback thus far. I have been following the discussion with all the keen interest of a guy who desperately tries to understand something about a topic that he knows little of!
Earl, I have a suspicion that different kinds of poker used to be played in Johannesburg in the 1890's, so I can use whichever one would suit the scenario I have in mind, best. The players are English and American by background, and all used to be diamond and gold diggers of some sort. They must have played according to whatever the miners that drifted over from California used to play, or the stiff-lipped gentlemen from the London clubs.
It would be a bit tricky writing a guy called Alex into the scene at this stage. Especially a pansy! Would a guy called "Barney Barnato" do instead? Barney used to be in control of most of the worlds' diamonds some years previously. He was a most enthusiastic gambler who didn't mind losing huge sums of money at the table. (At least two more of the world's richest men are present as spectators.)
The story is written in the third person, Jon, but I'm going to keep the other guys' cards a secret right until the end. Better to build tension that way, wouldn't you say? Oh, and my hero won't be drinking beer. He regards poker as a philosophy – not a game. A combination of mathematical skill and a delicate psychological war game. He refuses to dull his mind with alcohol, so he drinks... ginger beer!
My main character is an Englishman by birth, who used to be a mining engineer in America and Australia. He used to play professionally for a while, but has quit the game for many years. The mine bosses force him into a high-level poker game against them, wanting to test his skills and preferably ruin his business so they can take it over. Instead, my character draws them out in a really sneaky manner. He causes them to become over-confident by pretending to be "a rusty old pro who has definitely lost his touch and who is stupid enough to continue losing money and getting himself ever deeper into debt."
Finally, he starts applying the pressure. The honour of five mighty men in the gold industry is at stake here, so they'll do anything to win. Two of the players are backed by the largest gold company in the world, so money is no object. My hero finally puts his entire large mine at stake. I would prefer him to win the final game with a very poor hand – just to add insult to injury. This causes the other players to take revenge on him later on, you see?
Would above scenario be possible? In the meantime, I'll be searching for the sources you all mentioned. Not so easy if you're living in my part of Africa, but I'll give it my best shot!
Oh, and that guy with the white, hairy arms? I think I can write him into it all. How about a bartender named Alfonso, who comes to serve the drinks? A friend of my hero, who secretly sticks his finger in the drinks of the fat cat tycoons? (Or worse...) Thanks again, Herman
A major problem with one part of your thesis: "After a hell of a game, he wins the game on bluff alone and becomes the talk of the entire city." If he is going to win all the money, that means at the end, his opponents will be all-in. He can't bluff out all-in players.
A more realistic and just as dramatic scenario would be him winning the big hand with a single Ace-high against an all-in bluff (ala' Erik Seidel in this year's WSOP).
I recommend David Mamet's essay, "Gems from a Gambler's Bookshelf," in his collection of essays, Make-Believe Town. Mamet explores his own reading of how-to manuals and other poker books, while drawing connections to his own life as a poker player. In his essay, he cites Dolye Brunson who comments that poker is about Humility, with a capital H. And, if poker is about Humility, then it must draw upon the Faust legend. Or, perhaps, to put it more simply: no one quite knows what deals we've made or understands how high we go. But everyone sees how low we go. Reread Macbeth with this in mind, and imagine him as a poker player.
Or, as Mamet's father put it when David told him he was going to play poker: "Are you still using cards?"
John Cole,
MacBeth? Isn't that one of those UPN shows no one watches?
My favorite high stakes poker drama was shown late at night on ESPN5 or some similar channel (isn't cable wonderful?) a few years ago. "The Donald" was hosting the first "United States Poker Championship" at the Taj Mahal and the final event was a $10,000 buy in no limit poker event.
At the final table we have top pro Ken "Skyhawk" Flaton and "Mr. Modesty", a.k.a Phil Helmuth, among a few others. If memory serves me, they film a few hands just for drill and now comes the high point. Helmuth is an a blind and asks the tournament director if he can go to the bathroom. Skyhawk objects, noting that they just came off break. After some petty bickering between Skyhawk and Helmuth, the tournament director decides that play must resume. The next hand is dealt and a bartender who seemed happy to make the final table as an amatuer player calls time. He tells Phil to go ahead. The bartender/player sits there and Skyhawk asks that the clock be put on (I believe one gets ninety seconds to act in no-limit). Meanwhile, Phil makes a mad dash for the restroom as the camera pans his frenzied escape. Skyhawk glares at the bartender but he can't do anything. Just before the clock expires, Phil comes rushing back (I don't think he had time to "shake it twice" and wash his hands - ugh!). Play resumes and the audience gets a classic insight into the real world of poker.
Now that's drama!
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
I agree; perhaps waiting an hour and a half for Helmuth to show up to a tournament involves real drama, too. But, I'm trying to help a novelist, and if you've seen Mamet's "House of Games," you know about drama in another sense. Brunson's sense of Humility is probably close to Shakespeare's (via Aristole) sense of Hubris. And, we all know about Hubris, don't we?
John,
Hubris? I think I tried that last week for lunch on my pita bread. Faaagetaboutit!
If you can, I sure could go for about five New York System hot wieners (a.k.a. "gaggers") with a coffee milk. See if you can have the FED-X guy deliver it about 1:00 a.m. on a weekend for old times sake. Make sure a real creepy cook with pale, hairy arms makes them and I would like extra onions if possible. I prefer the ones they sell at that spot in Olneyville (s?).
Regards,
Rick
P.S. Why do you capitalize "Humility" in your post.
Rick,
I think it's a federal crime to ship weiners outside Rhode Island, especially to LA. But, I may be wrong, so perhaps I'll give it a try. You say pale guy with hairy arms, extra onions.
"Humility" is spelled with a capital H because that's the way Mamet spells it, and I think he's following Brunson. Remember, it's a tragic flaw we're talking about here, or as one student put it, a "tragic floor." Gotta love that RI accent.
Best,
John
You larger players who were interested in Internet poker, but the games were just too small to whet your interest, now have your chance.
Always look over what you write three times, kiddies.
Tight players get not chance there. Chasers get there most of the time. Guess why? Bigger pot, more profit for PP. So, loose players are encouraged to play their styles. How could they do that (kicking cards?)? Go just take a look and you will find that is not real poker. It is your money.
Could you explain your theory again? I don't follow it. Specifically, what is a "kicking card" also why don't you want loose players? Why is not real and what is the point that "it is your money".
( it sounds like great games to me from your post but then again I don't believe I undestand your post ).
Thanks
I have quite a bit of time in their $3-$6 and $5-$10 games. I'm ahead. I think you're being paranoid. Chasers get there a lot in live games too. PP can make lots of money providing a perfectly clean game, and it's to their benefit to do so.
>Tight players get not chance there. Chasers get there >most of the time. Guess why? Bigger pot, more >profit for PP. So, loose players are encouraged to >play their styles. How could they do that (kicking >cards?)? Go just take a look and you will find that is >not real poker. It is your money.
What?? I think that what you are saying is that Planet Poker rigs the deal to encourage chasers. This is complete nonsense. There are certainly unique risks to playing online, but this is not one of them. Planet Poker's rake is capped at $3 on pots of $60 or more. At anything above the lowest limits, the rake will almost always be capped very early on. And at that point, the risk is not worth the reward.
Not only does this not make sense, we have empirical evidence to the contrary. Planet Poker's shuffling algorithm was cracked earlier this year (now there's a problem you need to worry about!) and it's clear that they were trying to provide a random shuffle. They just didn't do a very good job of it.
You say: "Tight players get not chance there." (??) Try adjusting your play to the game conditions. If you play too tightly in a very loose game, you will lose money -- whether you are playing in "the real world" or online. And no matter how well you play, you are going to take many bad beats in a loose game. Take advantage of them. Compliment your opponents on their fine play ("nice hand, sir" doesn't sound nearly as sarcastic online) The bottom line is that if you have a solid game and know how to adjust given the peculiarities of online poker, these are some of the softest games around. Your opponents are eager to take the worst of it. Sounds like exactly the type of game I want to be in.
Jeff
Do you think the people behind the cage should be tipped?
I've been tipping these people since I've been playing in casinos, about 8 or 9 years. Then about 6 months ago I started only tipping them when I had an un-round amount to collect, like if I cashed in $247 I'd give'em $2.00
But a week ago I stopped all together, and I don't plan on going back to tipping them, (except on those few occasions when she is gorgeous and/or has big--well you know.
-Colt
Colt said: "except on those few occasions when she is gorgeous and/or has big--well you know."
I know what you mean, I never could resist tipping a girl with big elbows, VA VA VOOM!
Big D
Big elbows? I'm afraid you misunderstood. He was referring to women with two big feet. I'm sure of it!
Merry X-mas, Steve
Before going to Planet Poker, I would like a little free practice. Casino Coco (www.casinococo.com), the practice casino of ASFGames (www.asfgames.com), software designer of PP, does nor seem to work and I cannot get any support from Casino Coco or AFSGames (are they out of business?). Does someone know about a free site which looks like PP?
Alexandre, I've never been to planet poker, but paradise poker lets you play for free in all the games they offer-hol'em, stud, and Omaha High Only, also you can play heads-up holdem. The software download is pretty small, so you might want to check them out first.
Hope this helps, Mike Blair
Thanks Mike. They just now suffer from a major network problem and there is no action at the time of this message.
IRC poker doesn't look like PP, but it's a lot more fun. Try this:
http://pokerworld.com/gpkr1.html
Brett
Thank you 3 Bet Brett.
I've spent the last few days reorganizing the archives of the various forums. The major change is that older archives are now available only in digest form. More recent archives are still available in the usual format.
Also, the structure of the archives now matches the structure of the forums themselves. The older "Poker" archives have been separated from those for the new forum organization.
As usual, if you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know.
Chuck
O.K Chuck here's a suggestion.
How about a Conjelco Poker Tournament? I asked those 2+2 guys Malmuth and Sklansky but they're too cheap. I figure you could sponsor say a $50 tournament at the RIO tournament. Everyone that buys say two books from you gets a free entry.
Whatta ya think? Yes I'm always looking for something free.
Vince.
Vince,
How would you propose that I divide the $50 prize among those at the final table?
Chuck
I've seen a couplt posts about this Planet Poker thing. I'm a college freshman who's 18 and doesn't have a car, so its not too easy to get to casinos... I was wondering what people think of this Planet Poker thing. How is it comparable to a real card room in terms of atmosphere, difficulty, etc.? Are the tables generally full? Does play move quickly? Will playing Planet Poker give me experience I can take to a casino? Should I be instead spending my time studying? Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.
If you’ve read some of my previous postings, you know that I like it. I’ve played in the low-limit games at both Planet Poker and Paradise Poker. I’ve not played at Delta Poker, but some other posters to this forum have said good things about it. Both companies seem reasonably honest. The biggest danger you have to fear is collusion among the players. Paradise Poker claims that their software helps detect it. I’ve not seen any collusion either place, but I’m not the most experienced player in the world; and if the cheaters are subtle about it and don’t play any raising games, it would be hard to detect.
At least for now, Paradise Poker is refunding $5 of the fee you have to pay when you buy in with a credit card for every 100 hands you play. The games are also somewhat easier than Planet Poker, but I suspect that will change over time as more and more experienced Internet players filter in.
As far as general difficulty goes, I’d say that the competition is tougher than in the low-limit games at the closest Indian casino to my home. I’ve only played in Las Vegas once -- during the day, during the week. (I found out subsequently that those are the hardest times to play in Las Vegas.) Those games were tougher than the Internet poker. A big plus for the Internet games is that their rakes are much lower, and there is no one to tip. At the lowest limits, this can make a big difference in you win rate.
I did a lot of practicing with the Turbo products and “World Series of Poker Adventure” before I started playing on the net. Whereas they are very good at teaching you how to read the up-cards and at reinforcing starting hand requirements, computer games just don’t play like real people. They are excellent for complete beginners, but they lose their effectiveness beyond that. As far as whether you should study more or play, I suggest you should read, play, think; read, play, think; read, play, think; and continue the iteration for the rest of your life. Our hosts on this forum all stress that you need to both study and get experience. I would be inclined to believe them.
The standard low-limit Planet Poker game is passive, slightly-to-moderately loose before the flop. The game then tightens up after the flop and gets a bit more aggressive. I inferred from a Mason Malmuth post a while back that this is a common pattern in mid-limit poker. If my inference is correct – and I hope he says so if it’s wrong – Planet Poker ought to be good practice for higher limit games when you feel ready to move up. As of this writing, Paradise Poker stays loose after the flop as well. As I said above, this is going to change as more Planet Poker players find out about it. I can already see it happening. (Paradise Poker has been playing for real money since November 17.) Both games do get enough wild men, crazies, and idiots to keep things interesting.
Obviously, a big difference between Net poker and live poker is tell play. About the only tell available on the Net is a player’s betting speed, and that’s unreliable due to the properties of the Net itself. Net poker lacks most of the social aspects of real poker as well. Paradise Poker moves about the same speed as a live casino game. Planet Poker is somewhat slower, but they seem to be working on it. All things considered, except for the obvious difference that in one you are in a room with live people and in the other you are staring at a computer screen, Internet poker feels like real poker to me. It’s a godsend if you have no convenient place to play. You can usually get a seat with either no or a short wait any time of day.
There have been other postings on this forum about Internet Poker. Try using “Planet Poker,” “Delta Poker,” and “Paradise Poker” as your search terms.
Post deleted at author's request.
i am sure my friend meant to ask if should he study poker. or play on the internet. he is definitely studying his school work. if there are any bets being offered on his flunking out of should, i'll take them. i'll lay huge odds that he won't. i know his dad.
scott
Post deleted at author's request.
I've heard tell that the collusion problem is worse then advertised. What if the two fellas were on the phone together. Just one of them folding against the other creates problems, and subtle traps against you, blah blahblah. Its like letting people signal, but signal with whole sentences.
Hey Ted, are you going to visit NY soon? I mean before Christmas?
alex
who is ted
why is he crazy
whats old
why wont he post here
Crazy old Ted is an apt descriptor for DjTj. He was a friend from Blair High school who goes to CalTech. He belonged to our game with scott, maniac mark, me, jamesH, and Niels.
Now, why old. Well, he isn't really, but he has arthritis, and is unable to walk up steps very fast, and has trouble using the toilet. So, I guess he just resembles an aged invalid even though he is still 18 ( have you had your birthday yet Ted? if so, I apologize)
Why Crazy? I don't know, but somehow he just comes across as such. Once I saw him pluck a raw oyster form the Chesapeake bay, and slurp it down. That's sort of odd. Also, he's its been reported that in Marine biology class he asked "where do all the fish go in the winter when the oceans freeze"
hope this helps.
...I think you're confusing me with another old, crazy Chinese person - I know we all look alike, but we don't all slurp down raw oysters...
Anyhow, I'm thinking of running up to New York as early as next week (12/13) - I'll let you all know. And tell Niels that it would be nice if we could hit that casino before Christmas - I'm running on some silly west coast schedule...
And by the way, when I said study, it was a sarcastic remark about school - in response to the flurry of parental advice given to that 15 year-old who posted earlier.
so now i know that ted is a not so old chinese person that slurps raw oysters. ted is not a chinese name but thats ok. gung hoy fat choy.
now-- who is Niels?
why doesnt he post here
why would he hand around with such strange people
Alex has once again managed to misconstrue the facts and make himself appear the buffoon. Also, he is remiss in giving credit where credit is due. It was not Ted who was crazy and old but Epson, who oft played worse than I and whom I would chastise by lamenting "Crazy old Epson". He stopped coming shortly thereafter. And as for the attempts to slander the virtuous character of our dear friend Ted, I have to agree with Alex. Ted is a mess, that's why we shipped his ass to Caltech where he could be amoung his fellow invalids and very few girls. Hope this allayed all fears and confusions.
so now where did this Maniac Mark come from
why is he a maniac
why doesnt he post here
if he is a maniac why would the strange ones hang around with him
does ted now miss his ass
I think i can handle this. Maniac Mark is one of the regulars in the high school game and goes to UPenn. Like Ted, he is old and decrepit, and looks like a stick figure. He doesn't seem to have as much trouble with stairs, but is worse when it comes to the toilet. There was one occasion where he... well I won't get into that. He's a maniac because he just is. He's got some kind of unorthodox play that seems to make him win early in a session, then begin to redistribute his profits. The reason he hangs around with the strange ones is they're the only ones who can stand the funk, they've become accustomed to it over the years.
About online poker, that guy Brock who was at the Thanksgiving session used to play it quite a bit. He would be up a couple hundred. Night would pass, he would have lost a grand. *shrug* He's now sworn off it, cause he's down about 2k, and couple that with failing out of school, that's a big frown. But (anyone else's opinion who's seen him play welcome) I don't think he's a good player.
-Joe
hi joe. i am glad to see yet another veteran of the blair hs game on the forum. though i doubt you helped ray too much. now he will just ask 'who is joe why doesn't he post'.
as for brock. he is not nearly as good as you. oh, i thought you should know that i spent your money on some new cd's. good ones. primus and muddy waters and miles davis and lou reed and some others. that was your money, wasn't it? or maybe it was jamesh's. i can't keep track. yeah, you're definitely much better than brock. in fact, 'brock' almost rhymes with 'suck'.
scott
one of our star posters Rick has problems in the toilet as well as Mark. he explained some of his problems in a few earlier posts. since then i believe he is very much relieved. maybe Mark can do so too.
nice to have you posting here Joe. by the posts its quite evident you are by far and away the best player in your group as the others have too many other things on their misguided minds.
by the way, mark, it is not usually a good strategy to scare off the one player worse than you.
and those chips you and julia destroyed were originally epson's. alex got them after he stopped playing.
scott
who's epson
why doesnt he post here
Ray, I am Niels. If you want to see my posting, look on the other forums. My posts suck. I said some stupid things. But AlexB and I are still the only two from our game who have playing in a casino.
I am very sorry to hear about Rick. I hope his problems have since been rectified.
I would also like to mention that DjTj was "removed" from our student govt elections for trying to run with the slogan, "The only good Jou is a Ted Jou." What nerve!
Niels -- I read that stuff about you and "legend" Scott. Glad you made it past 16. What is "antiveg"? Are you against vegetarians? Don't be so hard on them. I'm not really one of them, but I sympathize. I also find that ordering a veggie burger in a cardroom (I play in one that has them.) is +EV. Other players think you're getting some kind of edge on them, when in fact you may just be trying to rid yourself of the same problem Rick had..
I have issues with vegetarians. Namely the fact that they suck. At everything. And they're stupid and they smell bad.
Some vegetarians held a protest outside a McDonald's near us last year so I organized a counter protest with JamesH and Craig (who doesn't post). We had cool signs and the passersby all told us what a good jog we were doing and someone bought us lunch.
For those who are interested, here are some of our signs:
If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?
Maybe vegetarians would get more respect if they weren't so damn ugly.
And the refrain from the Vegetable Rights Association's anthem: That's vegecide, you vegephobe, You have no beef with me. So kill a cow, have some chow, And set those veggies free!
Yeah, but have you tried Tofu Pups?
is that what they serve in china if they can't afford real dog?
scott
yes.
...aren't I supposed to be taking finals or something right now?..we'll see how this casino thing goes...
what do you mean, "legend"? i exist. here i am. what's going on?
scott
Didn't you read it? You're a legend in college admissions offices. Maybe they think you don't exist. But I know you know enough existentialism to deal with that.
oh yeah ... that. they sent me a copy a couple of weeks ago to proofread. i never got around to it, but i figured it would be ok. they call me a legend ?!? that has to be a mistake. not only do i exist, but i am noone of consequence. i heard they gave niels all the credit for trying to get miss taylor fired. alexb did some, too. and i, according to an oft told myth, cussed her out in front of the class. i only hope that this article which shamelessly slanders me as a "legend" does some public good by prompting the dismissal and execution of miss taylor.
scott
It was my quote "I'd have more respect for Vegetarians if they weren't so damn ugly"
Not Niels' that thieving chinaman
alex
in fact, i remember niels as more of our pawn and less of an actual force. damn revisionists.
scott
Planet Poker. Never Been there. Mike Caro, Poker Genius, says it be goood. Must be goood. Huh!
Quotes from CP advertisement
" Planet Poker is the most-trusted name in Internet Poker"
"Mike Caro is the most-name in poker, period."
"Is this a dream team or what"
Vince responds
Dream team, right! Nightmare if you ask me.
If a double negative means a positive then what does a triple negative like the above mean? Must be goood. Ask the "Genius".
Quote from add:
"Fixed Limit Texas Holdem"
Vince responds.
Why would anyone play in a limit holdem game that they knew was fixed? I guess since Mike explains upfront that the game is fixed you should not be surprised to find collusion may occur. Thanks for the heads up Mike. If you would respond here you would endear yourself to a bunch of no nothings but we probably don't warrant any of a "geniuses" fixed limited time. Of course we have Sklansky. Yeah I know no body ever claimed he was a genius.
Add quote:
"Bringing Mike Caro on board wasn't easy. It took more than a year of negotiations before we felt we could offer him what he required to comfortably endorse us."
Vince's response.
Does anyone have the slightest idea what those two sentences mean? Planet Poker and Mike Caro were made for each other. On that I agree. Neither one of them make any sense. Wait a minute! It must be me. The problem is that Mike is a "genius" and I am a genie that is still locked up in his dismal little bottled world unable to understand the concepts put forth by the "World's Foremost Authority on poker strategy, psychology and statistics".
One other thing. I read the whole advertisement. No where does Mike Caro guarantee that online poker is honest and can be trusted to be free of cheating. Does he have to? No. Should he at least explain what countermeasures he has proposed and were instituted to reduce the likelihood of cheating? I believe so!
Vince.
well, you are. Do you want me to bomb Mike Caro's house? Or maybe this planet Poker, do you know where it is?
Is Delta Poker the only online poker site that doesn't nick you for the 6% buy-in fee, or are other available?
Thx
Paradise Poker refunds it $5 for every 100 hands.
Does anybody know where Sutter's Mill is located? Is it north or south of San Francisco for instance? I live in Fullerton Calif., and would like to drive up and see it on an up-coming vacation, away from poker.
Thanks, Barney
Barney, I havent looked at a Ca map but I believe Sutters Mill is about 25m east and a little south of Sacramento. Much Ca history is centered here.Discoverey of gold, early pioneers, check a ca map look for the town of Colma. Look for hiway 49. I think you can pick up this road around Fresno and travel north thru the gold country. Bill
Bill,
Isn't Sutter's Mill in Sutter Creek? And if so, is Sutter Creek in Colma?
-Dale
Evidently, Poker Night with David Sklansky, the computer game by Interplay is not being well received by experienced players, though I saw some good reviews of it. I will say again that I never saw the game except in a very eary form. I owed Interplay a favor and expected them to to their usual good job. If they did not then that is a shame. I have already stated on this forum that it appears to be mainly for beginners and that therefore good players should be forewarned.(this problem of the game messing up people's computers is of course a totally seperate issue.) Those who bought the game and do not like it should by all means request a refund.
Now as far as this incident sullying my reputation, those who say that, do not undedrstand where that reputation comes from. It is not from my honesty or integrity. Rather it is because when I answer a question or explain things, I will give you the right answer along with a fairly simple yet logical reason for that answer. Even if the answer is occasionally arguable, I will at always tell you where that answer came from if necessary. Contrast this with other non 2+2 writers with the exception of Roy Cooke. Their explanation of plays (even if the play itself is right) is either flawed or falls back on vague justifications far too often. That is why they do not contribute to threads either here or on r.g.p. involving the pros and cons of specific plays. They know that their weakness in logical reasoning will be exposed. (This is why I have a soft spot in my heart for Gary Carson, Abdul Jalib, Badger,Izmet Fekali, Jim Grier and even Mark Glover even though they sometimes criticize me. They back up their positions with careful reasoning and ususally non fallacious math and logic.) For those of you who doubt this I challenge any of our competitors to start joinoing in on the tactical discussions here or on r.g.p. Since I believe that poker writers are a notoriously incompetant lot in that unlike other fields most of the writers are not at the top of their profession, I don't believe that challenge will be met. And the only reputation I really care about will remain intact.
Your answer below is reprehensible:
Sklansky wrote:
Now as far as this incident sullying my reputation, those who say that, do not undedrstand where that reputation comes from. It is not from my honesty or integrity. Rather it is because when I answer a question or explain things, I will give you the right answer along with a fairly simple yet logical reason for that answer.
Will wrote:
If you attach your name to something then you attach your reputation. To say that you weren't close to the project or owed a favor is pathetic!!
You know it, do your penance and admit your mistake.
Sklansky wrote:
* * *
Now as far as this incident sullying my reputation, those who say that, do not undedrstand where that reputation comes from. It is not from my honesty or integrity. Rather it is because when I answer a question or explain things, I will give you the right answer along with a fairly simple yet logical reason for that answer . . . .
Mr. Sklansky:
So, people believe you give the right answer. What if they didn't believe what you said because you had a reputation for being dishonest? You would be able to convince people on the purely mathematical questions, but any time judgment came up, you would lose if people felt you were a liar.
If you don't think honesty and integrity affect your reputation, I suggest you sell your name to a few more worthless products that you don't look at, then see what happens to the amount of money you can get for your name.
You might also try posting some dishonest answers. Develop a reputation for lying and see how well received your books will be.
You may be a mathematical genius, but you are in desperate need of a P.R. person to explain this situation to you.
Post deleted at author's request.
I think that the issue of licensing is a much more serious one, then has been described thus far. I think that it first of all should be seperated from Mr. Sklansky's record as a professional poker expert. Everyone knows that his reputation as a clear poker thinker is above reproof, but it is not the issue here.
So first of all, Mr. Sklansky must be described as having two reputations. The first as a poker thinker. And frankly, that is the one that I care about. But some of the criticisms above focus on another form of integrity, that indefatigable trait of personal integrity. I don't think that David Sklansky should be held responsible for the game's performance, because his involvement in such a product is quite clearly that of endorsement. You wouldn't blame Michael Jordan if his Nike shoes broke down quickly. I think that the only time when someone should restrict their licensing of something is when that something is an artistic product. David Sklansky's name is not. Calvin and Hobbes was. One could find fault with someone who allowed their artistic image to be corrupted by licensing and endorsements, but Mr. Sklansky is not an artist, nor is he a man who is where he is because of his personal integrity. He is there because of his intelligence.
Personally, I think the move to endorse a video game with a varied track record is much more easily justified then playing low-limit poker against suckers and tourists.
But I must confess that I am surprised that the only reputation that Mr. Sklansky cares about is his reputation as a clear-thinker who employs non-fallacious logic and math. What about being reputed as a good man, or being funny, or happy, or any number of things that seem to me more important then critical thinking.
pardon my humble opinion
alex
being funny and good and happy is important. having such a reputation is not. i understand why he only cares about his intellectual reputation.
scott
Post deleted at author's request.
Steve,
Some people believe that integrity is important if you plan on ever looking in a mirror. I once had my picture taken standing beside Linda Lovelace at California Jam I. That didn't imply any endorsement whatsoever. I once shook hands with John F. Kennedy and his brother Bobby, while a photographer was shooting pictures. The single thing that ties both these events together so clearly for me is that both John Kennedy and Linda Lovelace had sore throats on the day I met them. Coincidence? I don't think so.
Badger,
Could you please try rephrasing that, I know you're trying to tell us something.
-Zack
You seem to think that only academic reputation is valuable. I couldn't disagree more. Additionally it is hypocritical of you to distinguish this characterisstic as being reputation worthy simply because you value it the highest.
A man either does not care about his reputation or he does. If he doesn't, as you try to lean towards, then neither his reputation as a man or a thinker should matter. Richard Feynman did not care about any reputation, academic or otherwise. Furthermore, you know as well as I do, that your favorite guy the Ubenmench does not care at all about any reputation.
I think the character who is most easily identified with your position would probably be Raskolnikov. Intelligence over goodness, thinking over integrity. There is a close correlation in valueing and valueing reputation. I think we should strive for a sort of standardization. Since it is difficult for our meager ego's to not care about reputation, let's strive for our reputation to be based on all aspects of our character that we value.
you're being silly. i was not speaking of any ideal. david feeds himself on his intellectual reputation.
scott
oh, I thought you were being interesting for once
whoops
i try very hard to avoid saying anything interesting.
scott
Post deleted at author's request.
Let me make a few more points here. First is the fact that I am not defending this product. This is the fourth or fifth time I am alerting posters that it may not be up to their standards. And I did not ask permission from Interplay to say this.
Had I endorsed something like a lousy book (as a major competitor of mine did) and stuck to this endorsement in the face of legitimate criticism, that would be a different story. Now I would be costing those who counted on my advice a lot of money.
Furthermore, my reputation comes from the fact that my advice is often accompanied by the logic behind it. Thus readers are able to find any flaws in this logic buy rarely do. Again I challenge the other writers who post on rgp to put themselves under this scrutiny.(Badger is right about this. I don't want people doing what I suggest simply because I say it. If I can't back it up with non fallacious reasoning shame on anyone who takes that advice.) My reputation also stems from the fact that what I write truly makes many players big money. Someone suggested on rgp that because of this latest endorsement people will be less apt to buy my other products. Yeah right. It was also predicted that my next move will be to endorse a "sleazy internet poker site". I will never "endorse" such a site. First of all that would be endorsing something that is in many places illegal. Secondly I could never know for sure that the site was totally honest or that it couldn't be hacked. What I am considering is acting as a consultant where I would use my expertise to watch certain hands in order to spot possible collusion. (Subtle collusion is not about putting people in the middle. Yet it can be devasting.) I would also probbably "rate" or even teach players who wanted that. I might get involved in other ways as well. But letting a site advertise that they have retained me in this capacity is a far cry from endorsing or vouching for something that if I was wrong, could cost you a lot more than the few wasted bucks on a computer game.
>Let me make a few more points here. First is the fact >that I am not defending this product.
No you've gone one step further and are endorsing it.
>It was also predicted that my next move will be to >endorse a "sleazy internet poker site". I will never >"endorse" such a site.
Excepting of course the rotating advertising banner and links to 2 of them on the left hand side of this page?
Where can I get some Air Sklanskys? My Air Malmuths took 2/10 off my 400 meter time.
The issue is not so simple. Attaching your name to a product (ala Michael Jordan) doesn't necessarily imply endorsment. Usually this fits into one of two categories; endorsement/pitchman or mechandising/licensing (this is more likely some sort of continium but for the sake of simplicity). Which category something fits under has some bearing on whether or not one's integrity could be called into question.
If one were to buy a Michael Jordan tshirt, ballcap or whatever, that is a merchandising situation and Jordan isn't vouching for or endorsing the item. That Jordan's name and/or image might be on it doesn't, and isn't meant to, imply endorsement or a particular level of quality. On the other hand if Jordan is pitching or endorsing a particular brand of shoe or phone service there is some expectation that he is endorsing the product because he feels it is of a sufficiently high quality. If what you get is less than what you expected you have some reason to question Jordan's integrity.
Now the issue with David Sklansky is a bit tricker. One could argue (and this appears to be David's point of view) that the video game was more like a merchandising/licensing deal. He wasn't vouching for the product, he was merely allowing his name, and presumably image, to be attached to it in the same way as perhaps he might with a playing card manufacturer that might want to produce a deck of cards with his name and image on it (btw, since it was my idea I want a share of the royalties on the sale of playing cards featuring 2+2 authors, I can't imagine there would be too many sales of David Sklansky or Mason Malmuth decks. But, I can see Brenda buying the Ray Zee decks by the truck load). Anyway, viewed in this manner, I think one can see David's point of view.
However, life isn't so simple. It's not so clear that computer software falls into that category. At face value it's not completely unreasonable to assume that computer software with his name on it is meant as an endorsement and thus of value to the 'serious' poker player.
I suspect though, that even a superfical comparision between the features and capabilites of TTH and the Sklansky labelled software would tell you immediatley they are aimed at two different audiences and thus Sklansky's name is not meant as an endorsment of the software as a serious research tool.
Some catchy cliche like 'buyer beware' comes to mind when deciding on this kind of purchase.
To get back to AlexB's point. He is correct with respect to merchandising situations. However, endorsment deals can not be separated from one's record as a poker expert (or whatever the case may be).
for what that's worth
one more thing...
Krusty Rules!!!
point well taken.
I don't think we're giving DS enough credit here. First, licensing deals like this often happen before the fact. It may be that Interplay had no intention of getting into the poker game market UNLESS they could differentiate themselves from the pack with such a license.
Now you're David Sklansky, and they come to you and offer X dollars. The important part of what David is saying is that he TRUSTED them to put out a superior product, based on their track record. He was let down. And now he's telling people they may not want to buy the product, no doubt against the wishes of the publisher.
It might have been smarter to get a final-approval clause on an endorsement contract, even if just for selfish reasons. If David retains control of the quality of products that carry his name, he can ensure that the endorsement value of his name carries more financial clout. But I'm not sure that he was ethically responsible in this case.
In any event, the fact that he's telling people to be careful about the game now speaks well for his honesty and integrity. I'm sure it will hurt any future deals with Interplay.
David Sklansky wrote:
>Now as far as this incident sullying my reputation, >those who say that, do not undedrstand where that >reputation comes from.
You're right: I don't understand. I thought that when I saw the name "David Sklansky" on a product, it meant something. In fact, I thought it meant a lot. Obviously, I was wrong.
Jeff
Fellow Posters,
You know, every time I'm on the brink of forgetting this whole fiasco, David throws another "log on the fire" in the form of a post.
Hay David, have you ever heard the expression,"Let Sleeping Dogs Lie".
-Dale
I bought some books with David Sklansky's name on them.
I bought some videos with David Sklansky's name on them.
I saw a computer game with David Sklansky's name on it.
What was I suppossed to think?
One time I asked Ray Zee a question about the way he played a hand in a big side game. The first words out of his mouth were, "I made a mistake."
I have never ONCE heard David Sklansky say, "I made a mistake." It's always just a bunch of rationalization that skips over the point. The same is true for Mason Malmuth.
Why can't he simply say, "I made a mistake allowing my name to be used with this product without first testing it myself."
What is so hard about that?
What's wrong with this picture?
Fuzzy thinking at it's apex.
My opinion? A gigantic ego unable to admit an error.
Timothy,
What you say reminds me of Kathie Lee Gifford, and the way she chose to handle her child labor scandal.
(1)Never admitting she made a mistake.
(2)No formal apologies
(3)Clouding the issue. How? By redirecting attention on to others. One example: She stated something to the effect that, she was "SURE" that Jaclyn Smith(who had an equally popular clothing line at the time)didn't know every facet of what goes on in the factories that were making her clothing line.
Of course this was total bull$_it, and Miss Smith was forced to publicly defend herself. During her public denouncement she made a statement, not unlike the one Gary Carson makes in this very thread, that she wished her name had never been mentioned by Kathie Lee.
In two of the posts by David in this thread, he attempts to redirect attention by using statements such as, "I will always tell you where that answer came from-..., Contrast this with 'other' non 2+2 writers...."
He does it once again by saying, "Had I endorsed something like a lousy book, as a major competitor of mine did..."
-Martin D
You guys still don't understand. Unlike Kathie Lee Gifford, I would endorse slave labor made products for a million bucks in a heartbeat (unless I really thought that by not doing it would stop the slavery). If you see me endorsing a brand of playing cards BEWARE. All I was ever saying is that you cannot extrapolate this immorality into the realm of me giving out misinformation that could cost you a lot of money. (Well maybe for ten million I would do that too, but I doubt I would get such offers).
My position is a philosophical one. It actually bothers me to achieve some sort of standing merely from trustworthiness. I HATE mediocre doctors with great bedside manner. If they spent more time learning their trade, were gruffer with their patients and cheated in their home poker game to make up for their lost income since they couldn't charge as much per patient, less people would DIE. In other words easily achieved attributes such as honesty, friendliness, not steaming, always playing your best game, etc. are nice to have but are not something to be particularly proud of especially when possessing those attributes lets you rationalize not exercising, not studying your field intensely or other endeavors that truly take dedication and perseverence. The reason I bring up these points is not because I am trying to muddy the waters about the Interplay game. It is simply that the issue reminded me of these other concepts.
As far as our ad for internet poker, this is no more an endorsement than the ads in Card Player and Poker Digest are.
No one has claimed that this incident diminishes the quality of your advice. The problem is that we no longer have any way to know which advice is actually coming from you.
For example, there is a poker strategy book included in the "Poker Night" package. Did you actually write this book, or was it part of the package deal that you approved sight unseen?
Jeff
If you look at the Strategy Book you will see who all the authors were. The first part of the book is the Fundamentals of Poker written by Lynne Loomis and myself. (This has become widely recognized as the best beginners book for poker players). The second part of the book consists of 8 excerpts from books that David was either the author or co-author of. These includ The Theory of Poker, Getting the Best of It, and Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players (21st Century Edition).
I put the strategy book together for Interplay, but I had nothing to do with the game and have never looked at the game.
OK, I'm beginning to understand now. The software "Poker Night With David Sklansky" is worthless junk. I was naive to assume that just because it had Mr. Sklansky's name on it, it would be a quality product -- or that Mr. Sklansky had even seen it.
On the other hand, the book "Poker Night With David Sklansky" is of the utmost quailty and clearly expresses advice endorsed by Sklansky. And I should know this because it has his name on it.
Oh, and this is a product aimed at beginners, who should easily be able to tell the difference.
Jeff
Just curious why anyone on line and serious enough about poker to know who David Sklansky is didn't come here first and ask, "What can you guys tell me about this product?" before buying it?
someone did. and david responded that he had not seen the game past its early stages, had no input in the game, and believed it was not intended for serious players.
scott
He "believed it was not intended for serious players."
scott,
You're confusing the word "serious", with the word "experienced". Anybody who buys software, or a book that is designed to help someone become a better player, obviously has aspirations of becoming a more serious player, at least to some degree.
What you mean is that the software was intended for beginners, and not experienced players('advanced' players also works).
-Connie
you can check the archives, but i believe he used the phrase, "entertainment purposes."
scott
Dear scott,
I'm too lazy to check the archives, so I'll take your word for it. I didn't realize it was only for entertainment. My apologies.
-Connie
scott,
You are wrong and Connie is right. Just go to:
www.twoplustwo.com/cgi-bin/oct99.pl?read=31381
Sklansky says, "I have not seen this game and was just paid for my name. I suspect it is for beginners and had nothing to do with its development."
Now I suspect you will pull a sklansky and not admit you were mistaken to Connie.
Tommy
i checked and you are correct. why did you think i would not admit my mistake?
scott
scott,
I wasn't right, Connie was right. And I guess the reason I didn't and don't expect you to address HER personally, should be self evident in the fact that you haven't. Piece'a'cake, right?
-Tommy
Tom,
Scott officially apologizes in the title you just posted, you NumbNuts. Don't you feel stupid!
-Zack
P.S. I've made that mistake a few times myself when I'm a little anxious to respond, but don't tell anybody, ok. Thanks
you were also right. you said that i was wrong. that was right. the text of the message is to you. and the title is to insure that connie reads it. how do you think i should have admitted my mistake?
scott
scott,
The way you admitted your mistake was fine, I just didn't notice it, the way it got scrunched up and pushed to the far right of the screen. I apologize for attacking you, you're a nice guy, I know that. I was just having a bad day. Sorry.
-Tommy
it's ok. we all have bad days. no harm, no foul.
scott
You should know that the book is high quality because it is a Two Plus Two product (and the game is not). At Two Plus Two we strive to make all our products top notch.
Mason Malmuth wrote: "You should know that the book is high quality because it is a Two Plus Two product (and the game is not). At Two Plus Two we strive to make all our products top notch."
OK. I think I'm beginning to understand now. So, as as a second example, let's take "Sklansky's Hold 'Em Challenge," which Interplay did a version of.
The uninitiated would foolishly assmue that Mr. Sklansky actually had something to do with the development of this product, and that it was of superior quality.
However, those "in the know" would realize that Mr. Sklansky only "strives to make his products top notch" when they are produced by 2+2.
But those truely enlightened will realize that the word "hold" in the game's title has 4 letters, and 4=2+2, so this is clearly a product worthy of the Sklansky name. Same goes for the word "stud" in Carribean Stud.
You don't understand where the name Two Plus Two comes from. It has nothing to do with the number four. When I originally self-published my book GAMBLING THEORY AND OTHER TOPICS I wanted to put an equation on the cover. I first I leaned towards the maximum likelihood estimator for the standard deviation, but I finally settled on 2+2=4, done with card pictures. In 1989 the cover was redone by an artist and I liked the way that the 2+2=4 was done so much that it became our name and logo. I even got a complaint from David in 1990 as to what this 2+2 stuff was doing on the back cover of (a new printing of) HPFAP. So you see it is purely coincidence that 2+2 actually equals 4. In fact, it could equal 5 as far as I'm concerned.
By the way, here's a little trivia that I bet you didn't know. There was once a Two Plus Three Publishing that I was involved in. Its product is now part of the Two Plus Two line. Why don't you guess what it is? (Here's a hint: Lynne Loomis was also involved.)
Mason Malmuth wrote: "By the way, here's a little trivia that I bet you didn't know. There was once a Two Plus Three Publishing that I was involved in. Its product is now part of the Two Plus Two line. Why don't you guess what it is? (Here's a hint: Lynne Loomis was also involved.)"
Ooh! I know! "Poker Night with David Sklansky" (the book, that is.)
Who said Mason has no sense of humor?
Jeff
"There was once a Two Plus Three Publishing that I was involved in."
Now that's 5 Mason. 2+3=5 see.
Do I have to do everything?
vince.
Though I said I would purposely write misinformation for ten million dollars, the fact remains that discerning readers need not fear this. Again, I usually accompany my advice with the reason behind it. So even if you couldn't have come up with the idea yourself, you should be able to follow the reasoning once explained. (Those who can't, frankly should probably not play serious poker unless you have a rare instinctive knack.) Thus If I was trying to foist bad advice on my unwary readers I would be doomed to failure since any reasons for this advice would of necessity contain fallacies, not to mention that the advice would be quickly seen for what it was since you would not do as well in your poker results. This is of course actually good for me. If it were not for the checks and balances of non fallaciousness and real world results, I WOULD have to worry that some other writer would unfairly achieve a better reputation. Since I don't see Huck Seed, Mark Weitzman, or maybe one of the smart young whippersnappers on this forum writing books, I won't worry for a while.
"You guys still don't understand. Unlike Kathie Lee Gifford, I would endorse slave labor made products for a million bucks in a heartbeat "
Excuse me David. Are you the same David Sklansky that has in the past stated that he wished to be respected in the Thinking Community? If so you may want to THINK before you make a claim like that again. If there is anything more distateful to the American Psyche than "slave labor" I don't know what it may be.
Vince.
Post deleted at author's request.
My position on voting is this: There are some people who do not take the time to even know what they are voting for. Anybody, for instance, who votes for president should be expected to know what a veto is, since that is such a major part of a presidents job. Even worse are those people who know absolutely nothing about what the candidate stands for and vote either consciously or unconconsciously based on hair color or looks etc. You don't need to be smart to avoid this ignorance. Thus I suggest some sort of simple test. Furthermore I do not say that those who fail, not be allowed to vote. Rather I suggest that they get one vote while others get two. Thus if 80% of the people CHOOSE to be imbeciles they can still out vote the others.
David,
Unfortunatly, you are going to have to have someone write, and grade the tests. How do you pick an impartical person for this task? Besides, who says that hair color *isn't* the most important things that modern presidents have to offer their constituency?
- Andrew
Post deleted at author's request.
Since David Duke was looking for rationalizations to discriminate against skin color, any similarities between him and me are purely coincidental. The people I want to discriminate, against always have the choice to become a different type of person. Even now felons can't vote. Neither can certified psychotics. Why should people who are unwilling to learn even the simplest precepts in the face of overwhelming evidence that they should, have an equal say in who governs a group of people , most of whom with some semblance of rationality.
Post deleted at author's request.
It does start out as a belief system without logic. Someone can for instance believe that gorillas should be allowed to vote. However if that same someone believes that anyone who votes should know what they are voting for and further believes that gorillas do not know what they are voting for, than I can logically say that they are wrong somewhere. The reasonable arguement against my voting stance would be that even people without a clue should be allowed to vote equally because of the overiding implications of not letting them. That stance I cannot logically argue against. But I believe it is wrong.
"it is a belief system -- it's got nothing to do with logic."
Like Gary's book?
I continued by saying that I would NOT endorse the product if that would stop the slave labor. The truth is that I care more about these issues than I do about hypocritical honor among poker players. Again I was just trying to make the point that my reputation in the gambling community comes from the information and help I provide which is all that should matter. If you and I were ever to become personal friends you would find, I think, that I have the attributes you admire in one on one situations. But for the purposes of this discussion I would rather disavow those attributes.
"Again I was just trying to make the point that my reputation in the gambling community comes from the information and help I provide which is all that should matter"
With this I agree. I respect your opinion as a Poker Authority more than anyone elses except for Mason of course and maybe... No I won't go there. I did not misquote you. I purposely left out your qualifier about stopping slave labor. You answered my post effectively. I only posted this response because you answered in the form of a question.
While I am here I may as well apologize for the How dare you post. I sometimes go a little overboard in my remarks. I apologize for that. One thing positive though, Sklansky. Your response did show, at least to me, that somewhere deep beneath that chilly exterior you are actually more than just a handheld calculator. Careful, I may find a way to use that humaness against you if I ever makre it up to your playing limits.
Vince.
BTW - I am a big, big fan of Stephen Hawkings. He just released an update to "A Brief history of Time". Gotta get it. 2+2 ought to try and get his works. Did you know he plays poker? Yeah, saw him on a Star Trek episode playing with Al E.
"Yeah, saw him on a Star Trek episode playing with Al E."
Babylon Five had much better poker games.
2+2= many things.
You are correct with your statement when you are in an ELEVATOR.
2Q+2Q=4Q
"This is why I have a soft spot in my heart "
David,
You spelled "head" wrong. No need to thank me. I know that you have a soft spot in your "under arm" for me.
Forever on your "logical side"
Fuzzy Wuzzy..er Vince.
Just thought I'd like to share with the poker family here that your friends and mine Scott and Niels recently had a nice article written about them in the Washington Post.
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-12/05/137l-120599-idx.html
The above link goes straight to the story on the washington Post website.
The only disclaimer I must give is that Niels did not single-handedly attempt to get this "11th grade history teacher. I was an integral part in this operation, and I can only say I hope this renaissance of news-reporting on the subject will get her ass fired.
The high school mentioned (to satisfy Ray Zee's curiosity) is the where people such as Epson, me, maniac mark, joe, scott, jamesh, djtj, and others went to. Now, Epson is a rather jovial chinese fellow who is currently at Stanford and who has never to my knowledge posted here. He is a great guy, who is a rather poor poker player (however he did lend me several hundred poker chips), and he now spends his time in beautiful california trying to pick up flat-chested chinese girls who live in his dormitory.
alex
If it weren't for your incredibly informative posts on this forum, I wouldn't have any idea what all my High School buddies were up to.
I was disappointed that Niels didn't get poker worked into that interview - that's gotta be more important than Marine Biology.
Anyhow, poking fun at jovial Chinese fellows who will never visit this forum seems a little unnecessary, but makes me laugh nonetheless.
thanks for opening up your lives for the world. however:
who is jo fellows
why wont he post here
Your not funny Z! I hope Feeney (Paul) kicks your butt again!
Vince.
"pick up flat-chested chinese girls who live in his dormitory."
Very sexist and not Lady Godiva's (Gambler's) problem, but then again I can't see her having many problem's except for Vincie!!!
paul
Low limit home game with a group of friends and acquaintances who have played irregularly with each other for several years. A player is seen dealing from the bottom by two players who immediately call the dealer on it in front of everybody. How should the situation be handled?
Jon,
Send Vince over to sweet talk him. If that doesn't work throw him out of the game for a month. If that doesn't work for a year. If that doesn't work have Ray knock on his door with one of his grizzlies. If that doesn't work I'll talk to him for a 24 hr stretch with no sleep.
Paul
I played in a home game, years ago, where a girl friend and boy friend were colluding. The problem, for them, was that they were so bad at it. They not only never won, they were the biggest losers every night. I didn't say anything.
I'm assuming that you are asking whether the cheater should be allowed to continue playing. It's either that, or you have him locked in the basement while you ponder his fate. In any case, I can't think I'd allow the cheater to continue playing, and I can't imagine the cheater having the gall to continue playing.
Tom D
let's not be too harsh on the poor bugger.just tell him that this time he will get a slap on the wrist and cut off his bad hand,if it happens again cut off the goodone.If it happens again after that??you got me.
Just be careful when you're chopping off body parts. I'd hate to see the "poor bugger" do something rash and end up going off half cocked.
Does anyone know where I can find videos of old WSOP tourneys or other poker events? I'd be willing to pay someone for some copies.
Thanks
Conjelco.com (see the link at bottom left); otherwise Binion's gift shop or Gambler's Book Club. Conjelco ships promptly and has always treated me well, not to mention has done an awful lot to support poker and the reporting of major poker events over the years. I highly recommend.
You can call Binions gift shop at 800-937-6537 and order back issues of them. There is no 1996 tape - darn and I really wanted to see Huck Seed in action.
I've been hearing from my brothers recently that there has been a lot of mischief going down in this forum that I've decided to put a stop to. First, my brother "Fed Up with Idiots....". Actually his name is much too long, and my father named him that because he was fed up with many idiots. The iraqi government was full of them at the time. Good thing I routed them out.
My other brother, rounder, has been a much more subtle problem. He has disowned me. He thinks he cannot be a reputable american gambler with a respectable american family if his brother is me! I can't understand why. At least I understand pot odds!
Anyway, I must continue. I must confess that I am quite taken with some of the amazing dry wit and humor that I find in your site. First and foremost, I must commend Vince. If it wasn't for your daily remonstrations of some of the less intelligent posters, I believe I would have had to execute several of my wives to get rid of my anger.
Next, I think the next comic guy on this forum is David Sklansky. I think his heartless devotion to math and logic makes me think back to my younger days as a intelligence expert who killed possible threats to my government. Good work David, if you are willing, for ten million US dollars you can have a position in my government. We will even play your Poker challange, and use your Interplay game.
One person I cannot stand is that idiotic AlexB. Why is he such a fool? He isn't funny, and has made been harshly critical of me several times. I am much cooler than my brother, who AlexB apparently mistook for me. AlexB, it is I who is the cool, not you! Just ask this Sklansky who is the cooler, and he will tell you.
Go Home Saddam. There's no place for you or your Iraqiaian friends on this forum. Go back to Iraqia, you Iraqian.
alex
Are you one of those poker writers who can't hold his own with our posters in an intelligent debate about the pros and cons of a particular play? (Yes not all situations have a cut and dried answer. But all answers have both fallacious and not fallacious reasons attached to them. And you know that you will mess up far too often if you open yourself up to this scrutiny. Better to obfuscate. Just don't ask us to.)
actually, david, i belive saddam hussein is the tyrant of some desert. not one of them mediocre poker writers.
scott
Post deleted at author's request.
Gary: You sound like a broke author in desperate need of a publisher.
Thank you, Mason! It is so seldom that one has the opportunity of witnessing a low blow so well and truly struck, while still having to concede that there was merit and justification in the deliverance of same. Keep this up and you might wrest the mantle of resident wit away from Ray Zee. I applaud this effort.
As far as wit, goes Ray Zee is virtually untouchable. This can hardly even be considered an attempt. However, Mason need not fret, he has surely grasped a firm hold of the mantle of resident deliverer of the low blow.
btw, I just love the phrase 'well and truly,' especially when it falls from the mouth of mr. fumble mouth himself, Murray Walker.
>Gary: You sound like a broke author in desperate need >of a publisher.
Nice intelligent comment from the host of the forum there.
The 2+2 authors are obviously making so much money from their publications that they don't need to endorse dodgy software they haven't even seen, no?
DMR,
For years now, one of the knocks on Mason has been that he treats things too seriously. He finally seizes the opportunity to say something that is:
1. very funny in a "quid pro quo" sort of way.
2. a demonstration of an underlying dry and sardonic sense of humor that few would have guessed existed.
3.noteworthy in a "man bites dog" sense.
One of the first comments to his posting is to take him to task for being an ungracious host. Please do nothing further to discourage him. Mason is entitled to post here in the capacity of contributor; he shouldn't be held to loftier standards than those he imposes on others. If Gary wants to dish it out, and he most certainly has shown that he does, Mason should be afforded that same privilege.
Post deleted at author's request.
Big John wrote: "Mason is entitled to post here in the capacity of contributor; he shouldn't be held to loftier standards than those he imposes on others. If Gary wants to dish it out, and he most certainly has shown that he does, Mason should be afforded that same privilege."
But shouldn't Mason be held to the same standards that he imposes on others? When Abdul responded to one of Mason's personal attacks in a "quid pro quo" sort of way, Mason deleted Abdul's post.
Mark:
We've missed you. Where have you been?
Yeah, DMR, it must really frost your ass when you are forced to pay exorbitant membership fees to be part of a BB like this and then have to read venomous posts like that by the guy running the forum...really upsets me too. Knock it off mason!
Post deleted at author's request.
While I'm not out attempting to destroy the foundations of western civilization, I'm sitting at home in Iraqia reading your forum. Nothing makes me more sad then seeing such divisiveness among such poker talent. You need to start listening to each other and stop behaving like children. Then see how much progress you'll make. Just look at me; in 5 years I have turned my country around, and now we are ranked just behind Zambia in terms of annual growth.
Now, I must ask you to explain something to me. David Sklansky responded my post that I was the most superior poker adviser alive with the statement that "I certainly gave.....". Now, I have absolutely no idea what he means. Could it be that David Sklansky's unfamiliarity with the english language is a suggestion that perhaps he is not an caucasian after all? Perhaps, he is an Iraqi like me! That makes me happy, because it means that all poker talent originates near the cradle of civilization, nestled between the Tigris and Euphrates. I salute you David. I've also read recently that you think that instead of capital punishment we should institute a complex system of public punishment (actually I heard this second-hand, and hope to not receive a "why did you misquote me post"). Anyway, I have instituted your system last week, and have called it "David Sklansky's Branding Challenge" I hope you're proud of me.
Your implication is a perfect example of the logical flaw called (I think) "asserting the consequent". To wit while those who have no talent self publish, that does not imply that those who self publish have no talent.
Also just to set the record straight, my first five books were published by others including Prentice Hall. By the time Mason published his books it was clear that there was more in it for us to self publish but there is little doubt that his books would have been published by others (granted they might have thrown in a few more periods and a few less commas).
Post deleted at author's request.
Gary wrote: "You do write better now then you did back then."
Heh.
...the road that those with no talent often take -- self publishing.
Gary, does this mean you're trying to make friends with Mike Caro, Bob Ciaffone, *and* Doyle Brunson too?
Post deleted at author's request.
You can leave yourself that out if you want, but I know what you meant based on your history of having repeated it about a googol times over the last year or so. But then maybe I misunderstood all those times. Yep, that was it. More importantly, are you a vegetarian?
Post deleted at author's request.
Uh oh. While that's okay by me, and I'd like you even if you were a breathatarian (That's where you get your nourishment just from the air around you.), this forum may prove to be hostile waters for you. It's good you've had the practice doing battle in poker politics. It's nothing compared to the anti-veggies. Be very careful, Gary.
The FDA should mandate that vegetarian subs actually be made from vegetarians. I didn't fight my way to the top of the food chain just to eat grass. I bet Gary tastes like chicken.
Post deleted at author's request.
Hey do you guys know what a fat vegetarian is?
Vince.
The book Prentice Hall took was originally TAPE RECORDED and was thus not well written. The only books I have actually written were Holdem Poker plus the two books that are compilations of earlier magazine columns. And they were published by others. I could have easily written The Theory Of Poker acceptably well for Prentice Hall's standards. But it would have been too much work and I don't do unenjoyable work for less than $300 an hour. So if a book makes me $200,000 in a few years, its worth tape recording but not writing. (Given our recent success however, that criteria may actually make a short book worth really writing.)
All that aside, however I thought you were talking about Mason's talent regarding telling people important poker concepts, rather than his sheer ability as a writer. Who cares much about that, when it comes to writing books that will make you money? Michael Konik certainly doesn't and he writes better than you do. In fact when I apologized to him and a few other professional author fans of ours for our relative ineptness as far as writing is concerned, they all at different times made a point of stressing that as long as what we say is understandable that is all they care about when reading books such as ours. Yes there is a 60% chance you write better than me (oops I mean I). The probability you write better than Mason is a bigger number than that. On the other hand the probability that if you both played in the same 15-30 or 30-60 holdem game in the Bellagio or Commerce Club that you would win more money after 1000 hours is something like 5%. And I know that last sentence was too long and poorly constructed but I bet you still understand it.
Post deleted at author's request.
In my schoolyard there was a big difference between challenging somebody and defending a friend.
"On the other hand the probability that if you both played in the same 15-30 or 30-60 holdem game in the Bellagio or Commerce Club that you would win more money after 1000 hours is something like 5%."
If Gary plays 1000 hours of 30-60, his publisher won't be the only one going bankrupt.
David,
You wrote: "In fact when I apologized to him [Konik] and a few other professional author fans of ours for our relative ineptness as far as writing is concerned, they all at different times made a point of stressing that as long as what we say is understandable that is all they care about when reading books such as ours."
As a part time official "2+2/S&M Brown Noser", I will say I enjoy your writing style and find you understandable. I even liked "Sklansky on Poker Theory" (I think that is the title but it is sealed in a bio-suit in my deep storage vault in case it becomes a collectable) better than "Wining Poker" which of course came before the "Theory of Poker".
On the other hand, for a smart guy, you are totally inept when it comes to placing your posts. Thank God I know from experence that your response above had to have been to Gary Carson rather than John Feeney.
Please try to keep these exchanges more organized. Not all your readers are as perceptive as I.
Regards,
Rick
Personally, I think David writes marvelously well. It's when he lets OTHERS take over the chore either through re-writes or co-authoring that he goes astray. Getting the best of it is one of my favorite books. Did you write that David? Sklansky on Razz. Simple and to the point. Explains the game very well. Did you write that David? Hold-em poker. A classic. I know you wrote that. And then there is David Sklansky on Poker Theory. The FIRST Theory of Poker book which I KNOW David had to write. Right David? This book is a gem. I'm currently reading for the first time the Theory of Poker co-written with somebody named Dione? What was the point of that? I DON'T think David wrote Hold-em poker for advanced players or the advanced stud book. It doesn't read like him. When David chooses to write he writes well and what he writes is well worth reading. I just wish that HE would write more often.
"When David chooses to write he writes well"
Don't you believe this guy David. This must be a conspiracy thought up by Carson to inflate your already monumental ego and then crush you through humiliation. We've all "read" your works. We know the truth. And as you have always stated you are known for your advice not your adverbs.
Vince.
Wrote Holdem Poker. Wrote Getting the Best of It. Wrote Sklansky On Poker incluiding Razz Section. Wrote Poker Gaming and Life. Tape recorded Sklansky on Poker Theory which was rewritten by Dionne and became The Theory of Poker. Tape recorded my thoughts which were digested and added to by Mason Malmuth who then wrote Holdem for Advanced Players, Seven Card Stud For Advanced Players and Gambling For A Living.
Sklansky Talks Blackjack was slowly dictated to and directly trancribed onto a computer by the beautiful and incredibly talented Charmaine who can type 160 words a minute, play concert piano, world class tennis and chooses to live with Mason Malmuth rather than either me or Gary Carson
She probably knows talent when she sees it!
Vince.
"In other words easily achieved attributes such as honesty, friendliness, not steaming, always playing your best game, etc. are nice to have but are not something to be particularly proud of "
Yeah, I pulled that above quote from a Sklansky response!
And I say, "Sklansky How dare you!" Just where do you get off summarily dismissing important character traits "such as honesty (that's HONESTY), friendliness...etc" as easily achieved attributes. Honesty is not an easily achieved anything. Human beings must work constantly at being honest. Yes even you, although you may not see it that way. And it most certainly is an "attribute" one can feel proud of. We responsible parents TEACH our children the importance of moral behavior such as HONESTY. It is not an easy thing to do. Maybe you don't have children and can not relate to the difficulty one faces when expalining to a child why they should tell the truth. Pity you!
I remember a time when you would post little tidbits like "I'm tired and will let someone else elaborate" Now I understand why. Maybe Lynne Loomis needs to do a little editing on you Philosophical responses.
Have a nice day, David.
Vince.
Oh Vince how you misconstrue. Of course these are important traits. But I consider them things that you should be ashamed of if you don't possess rather than proud of if you do. And I was really alluding more to pap like "don't go on tilt" or "always play your best game". The point I was getting at is that there are people out there who truly strive for excellence and accuracy in their chosen fields and they should be proud of their accomplishments. It demeans those accomplishments when someone says "So what that Joe believes in astology and thinks we have been visited by aliens and doesn't know that the speed of light cannot be exceeded because if he did he would change his opinion and stop calling the Art Bell radio show. He is a good father who takes his kids to Little League and should be just as proud of that as Stephen Hawking should be for what he has done. Meanwhile he is leading his kids down the path of ignorance and a questionable future.
Post deleted at author's request.
True, but the kid with the father who believes in astology and won't examine things deeply, is certainly less likely to achieve his goals in life.
I would rather be the son of a loving father who encouraged me in sports and play by taking the time to attend my games and play catch with me. The world has plenty of educational opportunities from schools, libraries, the internet, etc., and too few parents who nurture the process of maturation by allowing the child a pleasant childhood. Having a father who loves you without reservation is a greater gift than having one who made a tremendous deposit in your intellectual gene pool. I certainly hope that your father gave you the best of both these gifts.
I think it would be prudent for you to express regret that you allowed your name to be used on a product that proved itself vastly inferior to your normal high standards of quality. It would also be good to hear that you've been taught a lesson by this error and will be far more careful in the future when allowing your name to be used to market a product.
There is no reason why your father can't be both. Mine was and still is. And if I had to pick one or the other I might pick the loving moron, especially if he did not try to indoctrinate his child. But there is no reason to choose.
As to the Interplay game, obviously I wish they did a better job. But only because if they had it would more lucrative for me in future endorsement deals. My point was simply that endorsing a schlocky product is like being convicted of bank robbery, especially since I didn't continue to endorse it once I was told it was no good. You might think it was immoral but it has no effect on my reputation for dispensing better poker advice than anyone else alive.
Or so I was told by all 37 of my wives, all 300 of my children, and the 7 regulars of my poker game after I beat them in a giant pot with a royal sampler.
Actually I HAVE heard that you give pretty good --oh never mind.
Hey Sklansky that's my line! You know something David, I have resisted responding to this pseudo tyrant because of his chosen name. Now maybe you can see why.
Vince.
I don't think that your endorsement was immoral, but rather, ill-advised. Once it became apparent to you that people were disappointed in the product and felt that you had let them down by associating your name with it, an explanation, accompanied with a brief apology and assurance of more due diligence in the future would have been well received. An increasing number of people are commenting on your perceived intellectual arrogance and seeming inability to admit error.
I never purchased the game, and personally, I prefer you having an attitude of arrogant intellectual conceit. I am simply looking ahead to your eventual deification and my ascendance to the role of disciple. Why should I have to go around having to explain and justify your supposed flaws when you can do so now and save me all that trouble later? Come on David, think of the rest of us sometime, why don't you?
TWK,
I need to know what the best route from Philidelphia airport to Atlantic City how far. LL7CS OR LLHE if non-smoking or O/8. Where should I play?? Any info. would be helpful. You can email me or reply here whatever is easiest.
TWGAF Thanks
Paul,
From Phila airport, it is exactly 65 miles southeast. If you are renting a car (probably the best way since cabs are $$ prohibitive and shuttles can be a mess) follow I-95 North for about 6-7 miles to the Walt Whitman bridge which crosses the Delaware river taking you from Phila to New Jersey. Follow the signs for Rt 42 South. Signs are good. Keep in the left lanes coming off the bridge (express lanes). Follow signs to AC expressway. Careful NOT to get in the lane (far left) for Rt 295. The AC expressway comes in on your left (the left 2 lanes of Rt 42 go directly into the AC expressway). Follow this to Atlantic City. There are 2 tolls; $2.00 and $.50. There are also 2 speed traps. Stay under 70 mph. You will see the city before the last .50 toll.
If you are looking for the best non-smoking area, the Tropicana is the best by far. They also have poker rates for players although they may be filled this week. There is a Day's Inn right next door. They (Trop) only have low limit up to 5-10 7CS in the non smoking ROOM! They have non-smoking tables for 7CS, HE and Omaha/8 (2-4, 3-6, 5-10, 10-20). They will accomodate you with other games if they can get enough people. Used to be Pot limit and No limit draw.
If you want the US tournament go to the Taj which is to the left once you get off the expressway. Once you exit the expressway at Missouri and Atlantic avenue, go left for 11 blocks (Virginia Avenue). Go right....you can't miss it.
Poker also at Harrah's, Sands, Caeser's and Bally's but small rooms and staff is marginal. Trop and Taj are superior.
AC is the easiest city in the world to get around. If you need some restaurants or have ANY questions, just ask me. I lived there for my first 21 years and go back every weekend.
Post deleted at author's request.
Don't forget our cut.
Gary wanted me to ask you whether you and Mason would agree to write the forward. He doesn't think it would be right to actually pay you, but he could see his way clear to giving each of you a personally autographed first edition as a keepsake. Yours, David, he would be willing to personalize with something like "To my good friend," Mason would have to content himself with a simple, but legible, autograph. Let me know soon, since I'll be contacting Mike Caro if you guys defer.
Post deleted at author's request.
John when you come to Phoenix I can get you a gig at the Improv - it is just down the street.
Hello,
I have noticed that the whole site is sometimes r-e-a-l-l-y s-l-o-w round about 12 noon GMT (which is when I often surf through the posts in my lunch break). Then later on it's OK (like now, it's 12.30 and everything's back to normal).
Has anyone else noticed this or is it just me (trouble is, it must be 4am on the West Coast, but that's why I can't understand why it's so slow).
I really like the split of the forums, all the tournament stuff is all together which is really convenient.
Keep up the good work,
Andy.
confirmed. the www is getting crowded esp around the buying season
I notice it and it is confined to this site others react ok for me I thought it might be a time when many of the posters are active.
west coast u.s.a. will be 7 hours minus zulu (gmt)daylight saving. your lunch is around dinner or the time alot of people get off work in u.s.a. it stands to reason if too many are logging on at once it will slow things down. it shows you that even Vince cant drive drive away the lurkers.
This must be the only chance I'll get to correct a 2+2 author on this forum so I'd better grab it - sorry Ray, when it's 12 noon here in England it's 5 AM in Western USA !
And it's not just a bit slower, it's almost completely dead. Frequently it times out rather than display a page and that timer is set to at least 3 minutes. That's why it's so odd.
Andy.
you got me good. i did have it right in the time part not the food part though. it would be getting on breakfast time or later for the east coast. it would be minus 6 or 7 hours from zulu. must not be a site problem unless its those times Chuck is upgrading things for us.
It probably has something to do with being hosted over at Conjelco. I'm guessing that this site is sharing server resources with some other sites. If a site is making heavy use of CGI scripts, you can see some horrendous delays, as each CGI request has to spawn a new process on the server. Get a few hundred people trying to do that at the same time, and you get major congestion.
2+2 really should upgrade their server, at least go to a dedicated server if it isn't on one already. But hey, that costs money and this site is free, so it's hard to fault them.
Please let me know if you have a recommendation for places to stay or play (low limit HE and 7cs) in Reno. Thanks. Tom Mullins
check the archives its loaded with reno stuff.
the pepermill is hard to beat if you have a car.
For low limits go see Jocelyn Treadwell at Atlantis or Barb St. John at Reno Hilton.
Solid players and higher games are all found at Peppermill.
Regards, Diane
I'll be in Vegas for the first time in March. I would like to try my luck at some limit or NL tourneys. Are there regular tourneys every day? What are the normal buy-ins? Any other info or advice would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Orleans has good tourneys for low buy-ins. I don't have their schedule, but look in cardplayer or poker digest. Also, Mirage has a weekly tourney (Thursdays at 7 I think) for about 275 buy in. good luck
A guy goes away for a couple of months and the place turns into a frathouse.
Pass the beer.
Welcome back, Dan. Nice observation.
You missed some other stuff while you were gone: --Badger is posting here. --Abdul is not. --Vince is still out East somewhere. --Some people make 5 big bets per hour, some do not.
Glad to see Badger, sorry to see Abdul leave. I'm not making 5 big bets per hour.
Abdul is posting nfl lines on other gambling board. Does not wish to share his poker knowledge with us though.
One or two were actually making 10 bets an hour. Wow! Let me play them heads up (oh just kidding)
that is in the games at the frat house. as you may have notices, i don't do quite so well in the big leagues.
scptt
David Sklansky has claimed that the recent incident with the "Poker Night" software does not damage his reputation, because he is simply endorsing a software product, not giving bad advice. The fact of the matter is that "Poker Night" DOES give bad advice.
The program's help file says: "This package features instruction and advice from one of the world's best known poker experts, David Sklansky. It also offers detailed mathematical analysis of each hand to help you make informed betting decisions."
That mathematical analysis is the problem. It uses a random deal of 10,000 hands to determine your hand's chance of winning.
Mr. Sklansky himself described the problem with this approach in a "Fighting Fuzzy Thinking" column in Cardplayer, July 8, 1998. http://www.cardplayer.com/newcp/articles/070898/sklansky.htm
Speaking of work done by Lawrence Hill, Sklansky wrote: "Hill is the first to admit that his strictly mathematical results do not necessarily translate into good poker strategy. (For instance, if memory serves me right, he computes that Q-10 suited wins slightly more often than J-10 suited in multiway hold'em pots. But those with poker insight understand that J-10 is the better hand, since it will make more straights that usually will win bigger pots.)
Another example would be that 22 is mathematically a slight favorite against AKo headsup, but has a negative EV.
Sklansky added: "His purely mathematical results can help you with your strategy if you are astute enough to see how the betting aspect of the game meshes with his calculations."
But the "Poker Night" package gives no such explanation. In fact, it says that the numbers should be used to "make informed betting decisions."
And this is a package meant for beginners, very few of whom would be "astute enough to see how the betting aspect of the game meshes with the calculations."
So, in what way is this not giving bad advice?
If this is true, I totally disavow the game and will be on the phone with Interplay tomorrow.
"If this is true, "
The fact that you don't know if it is true is truly sad. David what were you thinking when you agreed to sponsor this, this, thing!
Vince
I was told that the game involved networking with oher live players where a computer player would occasionally stand in as a shill. This is normally a great company. I owed them a favor because of Holdem Challenge. The whole incicident is sad but pretty irrelevant. I warned people on this forum. They give refunds. It became a big deal because I decided to use this issue to bring up two other issues. 1. If you have the best heart surgeon you won't abandon him because he watches besiality tapes. I've said my fill there and 2. Other writers are afraid to debate here. I just expounded on this in more detail on the General Theory Forum. Life is a poker game with some exceptions. Whether to endorse a possibly inferior product for personal gain without knowing all the details is not one of the exceptions. I lost a pot but that was all it was. A pot.
Post deleted at author's request.
You have got to stop speedreading.
David Sklansky wrote: "Life is a poker game with some exceptions. Whether to endorse a possibly inferior product for personal gain without knowing all the details is not one of the exceptions. I lost a pot but that was all it was. A pot."
It may have been just one pot, but the game is no limit. And as far as I'm concerned, you went all-in. Nice hand, sir.
Post deleted at author's request.
Gary makes an interesting point here. He is right that it is actually not to our advantage to criticize other writers. It is not a zero sum game. Mason does it for his own non economic reasons. My reasons are more due to a philosophical crusade that admittedly have some psychological aspects to them. But Gary Carson himself is not somebody I criticize on these grounds. I just don't understand why he has appointed himself defender of morons.
Post deleted at author's request.
i agree with jef. david sklanky is going to hell.
but don't be upset, david. think of the opportunities for an interesting life your certain damnation affords you. you can do anything. you can promote evils, like drugs. or even gambling. you can kill anyone you want. you can even drink malt liquor, the devil's drink. you can pray to an idol. doesn't that sound like fun? hey! you can work on the sabbath. wow.
i wish i were going to hell. how do i lose one of these all-in pots?
scott
Why do people like you keep asking david why he did it? He's explained it,$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. What more do you need to know?
-Burt
"What more do you need to know? "
Just what are "people like" me?
Vince.
BTW - When are you and Loni getting back together? Or was it Dionne?
So what's the story Dave?Have you talked with the INTERPLAY people yet about the status of the POKER NIGHT program?
I alerted the original producer to the problem. He was unaware of it but didn't argue. As non poker players they did not understand they were biting off more than they could chew. They thought the enclosed book would make up for stategic deficencies. They are willing to give refunds. Sounds like they are not trying to push sales past the initial run. If they do I expect improvements or at least a disclaimer.
I'll be going to Vegas for first time in three years. Staying at the south end of the strip. Where would the best Omaha/8 games be at?
The Taj Mahal!
Vince.
Try Orleans or Bellagio for Omaha/8.
Hi I'm thinking of going out to the Reno Hilton tournament today thursday 12/9 and was wondering if any of you know about this tourney - satellites start today and I'm Raren to go.
Don't know about the poker tourney, but they have some great BJ's
I played the past two or three events there, and I would highly recommend them-- I had a great time. I won a couple of one-table satellites, but fizzled out early in the all day events. There are plenty of satellites, and the live game action is plentiful both during the tournaments, and of course all night. Most of the action is at the lower limits, but there were some 20-40, 15-30, and one pot limit game. I play mostly low limit Om/8, and the action was lively. The card room managers and TDs are very helpful. One of the best features is the super low $25/night room rate. The Reno Hilton is a first class hotel/casino. There are other rooms to play at, but I didn't need to search out any additional action, with the exception of the obligatory trek over to the Cal-Neva. Good luck, and let us know what you thought.
I stopped by this afternoon to see whether they'd opened the new casino. They were still operating out of the modular trailers, but I was told they will be playing in the new cardroom tomorrow night beginning at 7:00 P.M.
They were spreading 2-4, 3-6, 4-8, 6-12 and 9-18 Hold-em tonight as well as one Omaha Hi-Lo (3-6 with a kill?) I managed to grind out 31.5 big bets over a two and a half hour session in the 4-8. (Eat your heart out Rounder) The game was very loose and switched between aggressive and maniacal. One hand, the pot was capped eight ways preflop, seven ways on the flop, six ways on the turn, (one guy was all in or it would have been seven ways) and a single bet got four callers on the river. The board was paired on the flop, a possible straight on the turn and the possible flush got there on the river. It was won by a non-nut straight. I was the only player who folded pre-flop. Three times while I was there a player UTG raised before his cards were dealt out. I know, you're wondering why I left the game and why I only scored a mediocre win. I left because I had promised my wife I'd be home at a certain time to help her with the Christmas shopping. I didn't do better because I suffered from a shortage of good starting hands. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
In the last Card Player, with the picture of their new casino on the front, I could have sworn they said they were going to open in February. Something about opening in time for chinese new year. I guess I glazed over it too fast.
When you say they are going to open tomorrow, is that Saturday they are going to open, your post says you posted on friday 2am, but where I post from it shows a posting time 3 hours later than when I really posted?
Oscar
I was told 7:00 Pacific time, Friday evening. I know they are moving into the permanent building tonight, but they may actually have a Grand Opening Ceremony sometime later with lots of Hoopla and promotion.
I'll definately be there around 11:00 pm, for sure!
-Oscar
Have you heard if Phil plans on getting serious with his poker site?
Chat room: "stay tuned".
High limit results: TWO months old!
No message board of any kind.
The place has the feel of an abandoned garage. I wish I knew how to hack, I'd break in his place and decorate it with cobwebs.
-Seth
Don't be too hard on the guy he's busy winning... er... losing tens of thousands playing high limit poker. He's got no time to update his website.
Do you know what the final tally was with the web-a-thon for gary?
Just curious, Matt
Can anything be done about this:
You are reading a thread and clicking on the posts. As you wind your way down a long thread you keep having to scroll down to where you were instead of having it take you back to where you left off.
Thankyou
use the back key or click back.
rather then try to deal with this existentially threatening situation, I would simply end my life with several well placed bullets to the head. Boom, boom! but then again, I wouldn't get the second bullet off, would i?
alex
Stop trying to pass off jokes from Dead Man on Campus as your own.
If you had two pistols, and were blessed with the lightning quick reflexes of youth, you might get two shots off. Since there is some chance of failure in getting that second shot off, you might settle in advance for a single shot, thereby ensuring your final act will be an unqualified success. Please don't do this prior to posting your Young Turks Christmas break casino poker trip report though. There's no reason I should suffer just because you're an inconsiderate %$#@^%$ .......................Oh, that's better, those little pink pills always make me so relaxed. I'll just go take my nap now. I sure hope this headache fades away.
Spence,
Rather than wind down after you read each passage use right button and go back immediately. Then go to the next thread that way. It still a pain in the butt but at least you keep your head.
paul
Spence,
your post is more of a question but what i dont personally go for are those that never contribute to the forums and just sit back and read them and then when they finally decide to say something its a complaint. to those lurkers out there- only a few will bite your head off unless you make a wrong stand and try to defend it.
Post deleted at author's request.
Be fair. People -- Jim Brier, for instance -- criticise S&M (nobody seems to criticise Z) all of the time without getting their heads bitten off. What draws the most heat is gratuitous insults and name calling.
Ray Zee. He's always right.
Friday is one of my days off so after taking a nap to recover from sticker shock on the price of a decent size noble pine/fir/whatever Christmas tree (the only kind my wife likes because you can hang the ornaments on the inside), I headed over to the nearby Hawiian Gardens Casino soft opening of their expanded facility.
As I arrived about 8:15 p.m., I see a steady stream of players carrying their chips from the temporary prefab trailers (were they had about 11 poker and 4 California game tables) to one of the two new "bubble" type buildings. About half the games were already relocated and eventually there were about a dozen small limit games going.
The bubble building is not too bad. Lighting is good, there are few drafts, and the ambiance is nice enough. The tables are too close together but this is my complaint about every casino I've been in except for Ocean's 11. I am pretty sure this design will shake like jello if we get a big quake but it will be plenty safe.
There were some funny opening night jitters. The tray tables have holes for coffee cups except there is no retainer. Several of us dropped a full bottle of water or soda through the hole. I also asked the waitress for a water with my coffee. She was new and didn't know were to get the water. But most of the staff is pretty experienced after having worked the trailer or in other casinos.
They also have new chips mixed in with the old chips they use. I was able to stack 21 old chips in a smaller stack then 20 new ones. This was not very comforting given I was playing Omaha H/L!
Big John was there and we talked quite a bit when he took a break. He pointed to his stacks and it was clear that he was ahead of Rounder's average win for the night. I think this is important to Big John :-). BTW, Big John is in fact very big; however, he is as friendly as a player could be.
Highlight of my little game (follow home thiefs take note - most of my money is on deposit at a few other casinos) was when Robert "Chip Burner" Turner sat down. Over the years, I can't ever remember losing when he is a game with me. I guess he is my "lucky player". Anyway, I go on a big rush and get paid off on the river in three places even though I had played four rounds without seeing a flop except for the blinds. There is nothing like low limit Omaha when you are low on cash.
When Robert left for the 15/30 holdem they were starting, I decided it was time to leave. I know this post is a little "RGPish" but if you are bored by it realize that the combination of a long nap and late coffee will be keeping me up to late and if writing it puts me to sleep then it is mission acomplished.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
Which bubble is open to the public? The one that is right of center or left? I just stopped by there on my way home from the Bike, and I saw some cars and all the lights on in the trailer, but the new place looked deserted. I saw those red 'keep out' signs on the main entrances class doors, so I split.
Don from Orange County
Don,
The one on the right if you were standing on the street. They didn't start the move until just before I got there so I would guess you were there a bit early. Valet parking was also on the right off a small enterance so that looked kind of silly :-).
Regards,
Rick
I was a little disappointed in the way the transition from the old modular building to the new improved modular building went. Everyone picked up their chips in the racks provided and walked a couple hundred steps out into the night air and into the new facility. The move itself was delayed an hour and fifteen minutes by some last minute problems. They served complimentary dinner and soft drinks, but I had gotten so hungry by 7:00, the time when we were supposed to move and didn't, that I quit the 4-8 HE I was in and walked across the street to eat some Taco Bell burritos.
The games were still very profitable. In a tad more than 6 hours I netted $318.00 in the 4-8. I was up more than $450.00 at the four hour mark. Unfortunately for me, only a player as good as Rounder can sustain that kind of winning pace long term. ;-)
There is an undercurrent (bad vibe) among the employees at Hawaiian Gardens that I find unsettling. I'm not sure exactly what it is, but it isn't comforting to someone who has spent as much time in cardrooms as I have. It has a kind of desperate overtone to it, but it might simply be a byproduct of their high level of uncertainty. I asked several questions of dealers, change runners and supervisory staff, but mostly I got a bunch of "don't knows", "nobody's told me", and "I'll have to get back to you on that." I finally located the head man and asked him what the collection would be for a small NL Hold-em game and gave him several parameters of buy-ins and blinds. I told him the collections I'd paid in various other cardrooms. He told me to give him a week or so and to come back then for the answers to my questions. Does a week seem like a long wait for this type of decision from the head man? To me it did. Well, as long as the games stay profitable and the drive is shorter, I'll probably be spending some time there. I hope they get the wrinkles ironed out at least to the point where I don't have to be referred by four different employees to four separate exits before finding the one that is usable and opens out to a path that allows me to get to my car.
I'm glad to see them get this expansion underway. I'd like to get a small NL Hold-em game going at a regular time on a preset evening or evenings. I'm hoping that the increased competition among cardrooms leads to better treatment of poker players. Hawaiian Gardens is on a well lit Lincoln Avenue, about one block east of the 605 freeway. I hope they get more security patrolling the parking lots.
John'
Did you happen to notice if they had 6-12 hold'em? If so, did they have more than one table going for that limit?
Thanks, Matt
Matt,
Yes they had one or two 6-12's and one 9-18 going when I was there today. 4-8 was a lot different in character this afternoon and tonight than Thursday or Friday. I played from 4 to 11 and was fortunate to make a whopping $81.00. For the three days at 4-8, a total of 15 1/2 hours playing time, I was ahead $651.00. This barely manages to match Rounder's 5BB per hour average. I think I'm man enough to admit that I'd be hard pressed to maintain it anywhere near that level over the long term. I think I'll give 4-8 HE a pass for the time being and go back to my tournaments and NL Mexican Stud.
I looked for Rick Nebiolo tonight, but he was nowhere to be found. Must be home filling out those IRS forms, reporting his win and refiguring his estimated tax liability.
BTW, things seemed more relaxed today at Hawaiian Gardens. There were quite a few new employees but they seemed better prepared and much more relaxed than last night. I guess it was opening night jitters.
$650 at 4-8 in such a short period of time, Outstanding!
-Matt
actually it was 651 by john's count. he likes to be exact. dont shortchange him. all our long time posters make great amounts of money at poker. although in john's case he makes 90,000 a year at 4&8 and loses 200,000 to my mexican shills i put in the game at the bike to take him off. now if i can figure out where rounder plays i can get him.
Dun't make fun of de John, he keep my 16 keeds in shoos.
-Juan
Juan,
You have been so busy playing that you haven't been home in one year. I have been looking in on your family, making sure everything was O.K. BTW, since last week you have 17 keeds. The new baby is very tall and handsome.
Su Amigo,
El Gringo Grande Juan muy alto
John
You rite, my nu son he ees bety bety tall. But hees weenito ees bety bety shortito! Pobre pobrecito. He only like thee pink diapers too. Oh jwell.
Meddy Creesmas, Juanito
Juan,
Glad to hear that you finally made it back home again. I noticed the same thing about the short spout. I asked Maria about it, but she said all the men in your family shared this curse. When she said it, your brother Jose turned red and almost dropped his "nephew". It is a good thing your brother spends so much time at your house. Maria says she feels much safer with him sleeping there. I find it hard to believe you and Jose are brothers with him being 5'9" and you being only 4'7".
Vaya con Dios Hermano,
El Gringo Grande
Hay, 4'7 1/4"!!
-Juanito
From what Maria told me, 1/4" sounds about right.
John
1/4" from thee floor es about rite, joo can see et on The Dick from Phoenix Photito galeria nex week, stay tune. He gonna haf un especial puto seccion jus for joo e tus amigos de la vediga. Es my meddy meddy Cdeesmas geeft to joo, Say chees!
Meddy Cdeesmas, Juanito
C
No No No! You're busted John! You clearly inferred that you've been sleeping with Juan's wife, and that his new baby boy was indeed yours! And now you know that his wife gave birth to your weenieless, pink- diaper-only wearing little fairy. CONGRATULATIONS!
-Jua/I mean Clint Westwood
Aw shucks.......
In all honesty, my limit Hold-em skills aren't really up to the challenge of competing daily at the 4-8 level. I do like to move up and take a shot at the "big" game once in awhile, especially when I'm feeling real lucky and running good. I pride myself on game selection over any other poker skill that I may possess. This is the primary reason none of the truly great limit Hold-em players have ever played with me except in tournaments or NL. I have a current list of 753 players that I refuse to sit down in a game with. I probably add between 15 and 25 new names each month as I become aware of their superior ability. I'm already reduced to playing in games where I'm the only person comfortable conversing in English.
I rigidly adhere to a policy of not playing any poker game unless there are at least two players in that game whose poker skills are inferior to my own. This practice has improved the financial results from my play, but, as an unfortunate side effect, has lowered the hours of playing time by 80% this year and increased the mileage I put on my car by a factor of seven. In the 2000 hours that I've spent pursuing my poker career this year, 825 hours was spent in travel time between my home and back and forth between cardrooms, 525 hours was spent personally observing games and players, 430 hours spent talking with dealers, floormen, other players and tournament staff. I spent another 60 hours on personal hygiene issues such as trips to the restrooms and the purchasing of breath mints at the snack bars. The rest of the time, almost a full 160 hours, has been spent playing ring games and tournaments. This year I've entered 44 tournaments, averaging 2 1/2 hours per tournament. This comes to 110 hours. (I lasted longer on average this year since I limited myself to tournaments where there were unlimited rebuys the first hour.) Of the 50 hours I spent in ring games, 6 hours were spent in NL Hold-em games, 15 1/2 hours in 4-8 HE, 13 hours in NL Mexican Stud, 10 hours in 4-8 Mexican Stud and the final 5 1/2 hours was spent in 1-2 stud Hi-lo split. Adding up the $14,325 I spent in tourney entry fees and rebuys and subtracting the prizemoney won, leaves me with a profit total that is just too incredible for me to share due to reasons of modesty. Suffice it to say that Rounder would be green with envy. My team of accountants is preparing a breakdown of my total profits from all ring games played. Since I turned over my elaborate playing logs and spreadsheet to them for year-end analysis, I can only give the roughest of approximations of my results. I think the overall total will come in somewhere just below the six figure mark. While I'm understandably disappointed to have missed that six figure plateau once again, I'm still encouraged by the progress I see myself making. I think I can get over the hump next year if I can streamline the process for finding a game that is beatable for me. I think that I can pick up another 6 hours of playing time if I simply stop my usual practice of washing up after using the restroom facilities. If you see me in the cardrooms next year, please come up and shakehands. Uh, maybe it's better if we just wave to each other.
Big John wrote: "I can only give the roughest of approximations of my results. I think the overall total will come in somewhere just below the six figure mark."
Big John,
I've just received word from your Chief Accountant Barbara Yoon, and I'm sorry to inform you that the high-five figure amount you were anticipating includes the pennies.
-Marvin
Marvin,
Of course it includes the pennies. I believe in total accuracy. If you didn't count the pennies, you'd have to make about $100,000 to get to six figures. I'm pretty sure nobody makes that kind of money. Even making 5BB's per hour for 2000 hours a year, Rounder would need to be playing 5-10 to get to $100,000. Who has the kind of bankroll that's big enough to withstand the wild swings that would accompany that big a game? Someday I hope to make the six figures, but a realistic six figures, as in $1,000.00, not some pipedream figure of a hundred thousand. Be real.
John,
It's sad to think that nobody, but NOBODY makes even $100,000, let alone well into the six figures. I gives a person little to aspire to. The only thing I keep hearing what people should aspire to in poker, is to try and always play your best game, too bad--I need more.
-Rookie
Rookie,
Rest easy, I was only kidding. When I post, my tongue is usually nestled firmly against my cheek. I hope you didn't really believe that I would spend 2000 hours a year in and around card rooms and wind up playing only 50 hours in cash games?
There are many excellent poker players who make a good living from their efforts. This year, there are at least 50, based in So. California, who cleared more than $100,000 in poker winnings. Keep studying and playing because there is room at the top for many more. Poker is a growth industry.
Of course, the real money lies in authoring a poker book. You have only to read this forum to see how intensely competitive that field is. I don't know of any actual violence that has arisen from within that group, but, if words and thoughts were weapons, I know for a fact that Gary Carson, Mike Caro, Lee Jones, Bob Ciaffone, Tom McEvoy, T.J. Cloutier, Lou Krieger, David Sklansky, Mason Malmuth and Abdul Jalib would be dead. I guess that would then make Ray Zee the greatest living poker author.
Big John, make sure you have that $25 last longer blood money in your gross income figures or there will be hell to pay. I have already alerted the IRS to look for it.
:-)
Big John,
I arrived as the transit was in progress, I would agree that it was the softest of openings I have ever witnessed. It was as if the operation in the trailers was just transferred to the bubble with hardly any fanfare.
I also don't understsand why they have been so slow to expand and so tentative. If it is run even half decently, they will attract many new players from South Orange County who find the other Los Angeles clubs too far away (you have to really love to play to drive from Newprot Beach to the Commerce). And yes, I too have noticed that fealing of uncertainty.
By the way, if you want great tacos or burritos, walk down to Tacos San Pedro a little to the East of Taco Bell (right accross were the end of the casino property ends).
I ended up having a great night but I won't say how great. I know you are always looking for that 10% rat fee :-).
Rick
I experienced Internet poker for the first time this week by visiting the Paradise Poker site. I found it to be very interesting. I realize that unethical conduct and outright cheating is a big concern to many (as it should be) but I think that there may be hope to alleviate those concerns. Anyway here are some thoughts I had about Internet poker.
Huge Potential for Profit by the Site Conducting the Games No dealers, no floor personnel, no shills, no props, no tables, no chips, no cashiers, no cocktail waitresses, no security personnel, in fact there aren't even any cards. They collect the rake electronically hand after hand. Also I would guess that there are minimal problems in seating players in games. If the list for a game gets long enough it should be very easy to start a new game. Also the number of simultaneous games that potentially can be conducted indicates to me that the profit potential for these places is quite large. One thought is that if these sites eventually will be cutting the pot a lot less than in a bricks and mortar type card rooms.
Huge Potential for Reduced Player Costs No tipping, smaller rakes and time charges (eventually I think this will happen), availability of games, potentially a lot more hands per hour, no second hand smoke, less overhead in travel, are some of the things that I see as being beneficial to the players. Right now the action does seem kind of slow on a 56k modem. However, as higher bandwidth technologies become more avalable I would think that the games have the potential for speeding up a lot.
Problems That Need to Be Addressed I have no idea how fast Internet poker is growing but I would guess that the growth will be limited until some problems are addressed.
Problem 1 - Cheating Of course everyone knows the potential for collusive cheating that exists now and I think everyone realizes that these sites will have a great deal of incentive to maintain a reputation for conducting clean games. There has been some discussions about this already on this forum so I won't reiterate those. I would say that a possibility in detecting collusion might be to record every hand that is played and develop software to analyze the available data to detect possible collusive cheating. I was also wondering as broad band technologies evolve and become more common place whether this will help in eliminating the potential for collusion. I also have read some posts where some practices of going all in can be abused so I would think that this and other unethical type of things that can happen would have to be addressed as well.
Problem 2 - Lack of Face to Face Human Interaction I don't know how others feel about this but I believe that the social aspects of interacting with people is one of the things that makes poker very popular today. This lack of social interaction is a big drawback to Internet poker in my opinion. Perhaps others feel differently. The promise of higher bandwidth technologies has the potential to improve this situation when video and voice data are transmitted at faster rates.
Problem 3 - Reliability of the Connection Your in the middle of big pot, you are a big favorite and suddenly you lose your connection. These seems like a night mare scenario that curtails my interest at least in playing Internet poker. Again the promise of improved technology may improve this situation.
Problem 4 - Government Intervention I have no idea how the government will deal with Internet poker. It seems that the powers that be have a propensity to seek a cut of the revenue from any and all gambling sources that they can.
Internet gambling is going to die a stillborn death. The Congress and the "bricks-and-mortar" casinos are going to make sure of it. As far as poker is concerned, with current or near-future technology, there's simply no way possible to ensure an honest, glitch-free environment. I'll pass.
No matter what steps are taken you will never be able to stop 3 people from getting together using cell phones or instant messaging. Even if they don't "put you in the middle" they can avoid costly mistakes by knowing what their "friends" have and thereby they possess a tremendous edge that you don't have.
Earl,
You wrote: Internet gambling is going to die a stillborn death. The Congress and the "bricks-and-mortar" casinos are going to make sure of it..
I don't know what Congress will do, but if the card clubs try to stop internet casinos they will be making a big mistake. The internet experience will often whet the appetite of potential customers for the real thing. (Note: Check the "puff piece" articles in the recent Poker Digest for their own thoughts.)
I have often spoken of the lessons I give my student on the internet (in addition to other teaching methods). She has been able to go from Planet Poker to becoming a fairly decent, winning player at the 6/12 to 10/20 limits in a real casino. Had it not been for Planet Poker, she would have never made the jump from low limit Omaha.
Regards,
Rick
.
Good point,
however I don't live in the US of A. Many players in the online casino aren't from the USA, in fact there are enough, I'm sure to guarantee a profitable business. You're congress can do what the hell it likes but they don't own the world. You need to take a global view of these things. Even if Congress outlaws it the sites will still be there.
Smoking Majiruana is outlawed but people still do it. Americans will still play regardless..
Your point is well taken. The fact that these sites can draw players from all over the world is very important and is often one that many people overlook in the USA.
Tom,
As always, you make great points (BTW, why haven't you been posting more?). A few comments:
The big problem with speed is not at the user end. Usually, it is due to the fact that the server is in a third world country and the reliability of the lines in and out are suspect. They also have software problems that should be fixable.
The social interaction is at the user end in some instances. For example, in our case, it is often my best friend (a mid limit pro), my student (who some know by now is quite charming), and myself debating each bet, fold, raise or call. We could never do that in a real casino. We have had some fun with the online chat.
Regarding video transmission of players. I don't think you would want to see most poker players play in their underwear :-).
Regards,
Rick
so you, your friend, and your student with very very nice legs sit around in your underwear? and she pays you? hmmm.
scott
scott,
I said "most poker players". She would most definitely be an exception.
Rick
I don't know what can be done about problem 1. One pragamatic test is to go ahead and play. If you can come out a winner after a reasonable amount of time, you may decide to keep playing despite the potential for cheating.
Problem two, the lack of human interaction, can be a benefit at times. Sometimes you just want an intellectual challenge without having to assume any social niceties. Despite a comment by David Sklansky in a different context, they can be difficult and draining for some of us to maintain, especially the shy.
Reguarding problem three, if you are in the middle of a hand and your connection is broken, you are treated as being all in. You can't bet any more, but if your cards hold up you get to win the portion of the pot you contributed to.
As far as government intervention goes, problem four, it seems to me to be a gray area in the law. The games are hosted in foreign countries, for example. Depite this, the U.S. Congress was all set to start banning Internet gambling earlier this session until computer experts started pointing out to them that it would be almost impossible to enforce. I suspect it's here to stay whatever the congresscritters decide to do.
How often do you see people's connections 'broken'? Being able to call yourself all-in on any hand you wish is a huge advantage if you're willing to take it. When I looked at Planet Poker a while ago (and decided not to play it), they allowed two 'broken connections' a day. If I were an unscrupulous player, I'd make sure I used them, any time I had negative implied odds, or had a thin draw in a huge pot. Multiply that by ten players, and there are going to be 20 pots where suddenly you are playing again an all-in player when you didn't expect to be. Pretty expensive if, say, you were running a bluff.
If this stuff isn't happening now, my prediction is that it will happen a lot more in the future, as these various angles become more publicized and understood.
They already are well understood, and I'm sure unscrupulous players take advantage of it. The thing is, everybody knows it. When it becomes obvious that someone is cheating, it's easy to complain about him, and people do. You have a valid point, though, and it definitely does happen, but not as much as you predict. I consider it one of the costs of playing on the Internet and go ahead and play, but I can see how others could conclude the price is too high.
When Planet Poker is running well, they reduce the all-ins to one.
Dan Hanson wrote: "How often do you see people's connections 'broken'? Being able to call yourself all-in on any hand you wish is a huge advantage if you're willing to take it."
This DOES happen, though my guess is that it does not happen very often. However, I think that as players begin to realize what a huge advantage it is, it will happen more and more.
So then, the question becomes: "Considering that it is technically within the rules, is it ethical to use "all-ins" to your advantage?" Does it matter that you know that your opponents are using this rule against you?
As was noted earlier, some online card rooms allow up to 3 "all-ins" per day without explanation. I think that this just invites abuse. Why not have a standard limit of 1 per day (or per week, for that matter.) Then if a player is legitimately disconnected he/she can request another "all-in" protection. Management could review each request to assure that nothing "funny" is going on.
Also, an important note is that even though allowing even 1 all-in per day opens up the potential for abuse, the alternatives are probably worse. For example, Atlantic Interbet does not have "all-in" protection in their 7 Card Stud games. Even if you have been raising every round until the end, if you are disconnected and not able to call the last bet, your hand is folded. In my opinion, this is clearly not acceptable.
My feeling is that this is simply another unique aspect of internet poker which must be taken into consideration with every decision, including the decision of whether or not to play the game.
Jeff
I think one should compare cheating possibilities in public casinos with those in internet casino. Some common cheating possibilities in public casino are: - People taking back one bet from the pot; - People looking at your cards. For those concerned with security: - You can robbed in the parking lot.
2+2 guys:
Is there someone in charge of moderating the forum? If so, do you think you could move the off-topic threads to the 'Other Topics' board? The Theory and Holdem boards are getting really cluttered with non-poker messages, making it hard to find the real stuff.
Just a thought.
Post deleted at author's request.
My understanding is that it is very hard to move a thread as you request. Furthermore it would require someone to read every message. No one has that kind of time. It is up to all our posters to do their part and make these forums as good as possible so that everyone benefits.
Again, I call your attention to Stanford Wong's bj21.com site. It has several 'post busters', who's job it is to monitor the forum, redirect posts to the correct boards, and delete any objectionable posts (which do crop up from time to time). They do a very good job, but I think that site is far more in need of such a person. This site is, by and large, much better behaved.
shooter
Standford Wong charges a fee to participate in his site. (Yes I know about the free pages.) We don't. To hire someone who could do a competent job as you describe is just not in out operating budget.
Mason,
Your 2+2 forum is just fine, leave it alone. The people who post in the wrong place are usually new to the forum, and will catch on soon enough(due to a plethora of anal regulars who will lead them in the right direction).
-Burt
I agree with Burt, give the job of redirecting traffic to all the anal retentive 2+2ers. Besides, they'll do it for free, they can't resist.
Keep up the Great Work!, Barry
Considering the number of times I have seen you post "in the future, please post this type pf message on the exchange" I don't think many wrong posts would be missed.
Brett
Dan,
I feel a little guilty here. Yesterday on the holdem forum, I started the thread "Q8 in the BB Revisited or Rick's War on Canada". My intention was to seriously discuss an aspect of the hand in question. I put a little humor in the title in order to bait you and skp (among others) into answering, since it seemed you guys had advocated what I thought was a poor call under certain circumstances.
Anyway, about 70% of the responses were a lot of fun (regarding Canada bashing), but had nothing to do with poker. The problem is that they really do clutter up the message index. I hope that when it comes down to the fun stuff, we keep it mostly on the exchange. At the same time, a little humor in the serious forums keeps them lively.
My suggestion would be for us all to self police. Keep the humor as adjunct to a serious post, but try to avoid posting for laughs alone (except on the Exchange/Other Topics forum). Vince, Big John and Rounder will have a special pass, as they are as lot of laughs even when they try to be serious.
Regards,
Rick
i feel guilty, too. my post was the first in that thread unrelated to poker. maybe next time i'll just start an anti-canada thread on the exchange.
scott
scott,
That one has been worn out. Let's go for an anti Ivy League thread instead.
Regards,
Rick
true. ok, go ahead. here are some possible amgles. overpriced, arrogant, grade inflation, establishment, and filled with loser overachievers.
for yale and columbia and penn, you can mention being in the slums. being shot, mugged, etc.
cornell is in the middle of nowhere and has one of the highest suicide rates.
harvard is ... well harvard is too easy. on the other hand, they didn't let me in so they must do some things right.
princeton is so snobby. do you know about the dining clubs? everyone joins one of these fat cat dining clubs instead having a school cafeteria. and they are served by the scholarship students!!
all they do at dartmouth is drink. i don't see that as something to make fun of, but you might.
what am i missing? oh, brown. brown's full of crazies.
there's a start. now your turn.
scott
scott,
There is a serious radio talk show host in Los Angeles of some stature named Dennis Prager. I highly recommend his book "Happiness is a Serious Problem" and "Think a Second Time". I'll fill in his web site later.
He had an hour of his show a week or two ago dedicated to the proposition that Harvard/Yale/Brown/etc, graduates do better in life despite what happens to them at these Universities (he was primarily thinking of liberal arts studies). His premise:
1. They attract the best students.
2. These students have a head start when they graduate because they went to a top school.
3. They acutally learn little but "fuzzy thinking" while they are there.
4. If they never went (except for the head start when they graduate), they would probably be better eduacated and more successful by their own efforts.
Anyway, here is his website:
http://www.dennisprager.com/
Any search engine will find some of his essays and Amazon will give you an idea of what his books are about.
Regards,
Rick
PS When I was at the University of Rhode Island in the seventies we used to kick every Ivy Leauge School's ass in Sailing except for Yale. They were equally tuff but had a budget about fifty times as big..
Hey, I've been guilty of throwing the odd off-topic message around myself. But lately, it seems that these off-topic posts are spiralling out of control into mega-threads.
I gotta say, while I was gone this place has gone downhill. Perhaps it's choking on its own popularity, but it's starting to look more like rec.gambling.poker, flame wars and all. And I left RGP a long long time ago because the signal to noise ratio became too low to make it worth reading.
Dan,
There is some good and bad as it grows in popularity. I think most of the posters would be able to self-police if asked to. scott has already agreed. Anyway, there is a lot of new energy. I like that. But things fly by to fast during the week when people have more time to post.
The thread regarding the life of a pro was misplaced but there was some good stuff in there. I wish the personal attacks would stop. That is too much like RGP.
I do use the digestify feature when I want to skim a large block of text. But I do pick my spots now unless I have time to kill and am too tired to do much else.
Regards,
Rick
you guys got off topic on the topic of not getting off topic. what a joke. but the fact is if the forums are not fun then they lose out.
ray zzzzzz,
unlike small caps scott, i believe in moderation in most things (and excess in a few). most poker threads are about 70 percent serious, and 30 percent fun or needling. that seems about right. it's just been that quite a few have been reversed (30 % content 70% BS) lately and in some cases people have reverted to name calling (i'm thinking of Bagder being called an a-hole).
besides, scott has already offered to behave a little and i'm sure his buddies willl agree. let's keep the mostly fun stuff on the exchange. maybe vince will find out what lady gambler's real measurements are so he will stop obsessing (it seems like women who falsify their measurements always use even numbers (e.g., 36-24-34). that seems likee a 7 to 1 dog.
anyway, the exchange is mostly for fun but i can't imagine pouring over the exchange archives when i need a poker tune up a few years from now. more later but i gotta run to work.
regards,
rick
hey! it's not all me and my hooligan friends. a small portion of my posts are devoid of poker. and alex always need some unlucky person or persons with whom to argrue. so we can't be blamed for more than half.
on a seperate note, it looks like we've recruited you on the small caps. let me be the first to conglatulate you. congratulations.
scott
scott,
only out of respect for my elder, ray zzzzz. maybe he can't read caps either.
regards,
rick
btw, i thougt rem was great last night when they played "man on the moon" on saturday night live. would that be cool or another sign i'm over the hill.
i like rem. and i like that song. and i think jim carry is perfect to play andy kauffman in the movie. but i don't watch snl very much. the new cast is so not funny.
scott
I try not to cause to much mischief on the main forum. Incidently, I think that the soup at Ollie's has such a potential to be great, if only they fixed up the noodles. I have no problem with the broth, but those noodles sucked the big one.
Anyone from Ollie's Here? Rounder? You work there? Anyway, if you do, please tell them to get better noodles in their soup. Actually, I would ask Berya to fix up the soup, but he would probably interpret my request as a desire for him to nationalize the restaurant and serve only borcht and sour cream.
alex
where is ollie's,
i like soup also. the place i go has a great soup called dujure or something like that. they must not use a recipe though because it seems to taste different every day.
Rick,
As I wrote Big John in an earlier post, what I said I am is what I really am. If I said I am 36-24-34, I was not exaggerating. If you want to be nitty griddy about it, it is 36 1/4", 24 3/8", 34 1/4".
You also said Vince likes me. Which guy would not if he sees me? However, he likes me even then before I told you my measurements. He likes me not for my looks but at the way I can respond back to any poster that attacks me. My being feisty is my appeal to him. What's wrong with that? Look at the posters in this forum and tell me how many are female posters. Now, tell me in your honest opinion, if you had ever read just one post from a female poster who can respond back tit for tat to any attack directed towards her. Nobody but me can do that and Vince likes me for my gutsiness. Add to that my being able to use my charms and my looks in order to win in my poker games and what more can a man want?
Now privately, I can match you in any game and I bet you I will win and drain you of all the energy you've got!
Lady Gambler,
No one has seen you so how do we know what you look like? Maybe you can post your picture on Dick in Phoenix's web site. So far all we have is Rounder along with a few others. If you are anything close to as advertised, you better watch out. Italian men are very persistent. I would think that Vince and some others would probably write you fan letters till the end of time. I can't and won't because I am very much spoken for.
Anyway, most of us men would agree the world needs more beautiful woman poker players. Now that I have had time to read all of your old posts, I would have to say you must be as advertised. No woman who is any less could be so confident, witty, and beguiling. Personally, I can only think of one extremely beautiful, charming and talented poker player and she is my student. Since I am a very respectful teacher who is primarily concerned with her rapid improvement in holdem, I have never asked for her measurements. But I am sure she "stacks" up very nicely compared to you and appears to have wonderful curves in places that cannot be fully described using a mere three numbers. But I don't want to make you envious, as you appear to be the jealous type
On the other hand, maybe you two have some things in common. She went to Las Vegas this weekend and killed those old rocks at the Mirage along with the cowboys that were in town. I bet they still wonder what hit them. She also knows how to use her looks and charm and I can just imagine how they were falling all over themselves to give them their money by underestimating her ability. But even if she was not good looking, I believe she is well on the way to becoming a top player and will do so through hard work and study. In a year or so I will put my money on her in the 15/30 to 20/40 games around Los Angeles.
Anyway, tonight I've got to get to work on some very complicated Christmas gifts that I am putting together by hand. Tomorrow I put up the tree since I have important company on Wednesday night so I won't be able to post much for a while.
Regards,
Rick
P.S. BTW, since this is a poker forum, I only doubted your original stated measurements as a matter of odds. It has been years since I read Playboy (my old barber had big stacks of them - now I use a Flowbee, which really works if you have Robert Redford style hair). Anyway, the centerfolds usually seemed to have measurements in even numbers. I'm sure even Rounder (who appears to be math impaired but otherwise quite a player) would agree that the chances of a woman's measurements being all even numbers would be a seven to one dog. That is why I doubted you. Since you added the small increments, I have become a believer. I just hope to see you across the poker table some day. Just don't think that your looks will stop me from getting all of your chips.
Gosh Rick if I didn't know any better I'd say you are a sexist. Come to think of it I don't know any better.
Vince.
Post deleted at author's request.
Damn it Badger! I don't mind you using your alter ego here once in awhile, but Vince is getting seriously interested. You've got to quit pretending before he really gets too far gone to turn back. I first suspected this dual identity thing when I noticed you carrying Nair and eye shadow in your fanny pack during the Legends Tournament. If you are going to lead Vince on, at least send him a picture so that he can come to a decision with all the information in front of him. You have to remember, Vince was in the military. His standards probably aren't as high as you might fear. I think you'd have a real chance if you just come clean and let him get to know the real you. If it works, who knows, maybe you and Vince and Rounder and I can double date?
C
"maybe you and Vince and Rounder and I can double date?"
Considering your size BJ wouldn't that be a triple date? If Badger is really LG and has the measurements "she" claims well nobody's perfect.
Vince.
BTW - LG I hope you are real. Not for your measurements but because I've seen Badger's pictur and oh! my. This is a case of the pot calling the kettle a pan.
Vince dear Vince,
Someday you'll see and as I said before, you'll like what you see but not right now, not yet, I still am hiding my identity.
LG,
It's probably better that you stay in hiding. I hate crying in public. Be still my heart!
Vince.
Big John,
I am not Badger!! How could I be when he's trying his best to look for me??
Post deleted at author's request.
Badger,
In all the places you go to, there's always one Lady Gambler for you. Now try to find which one of them comes close to my description and maybe you've found me, Bingo!!!
Post deleted at author's request.
LG wrote about Vince:
"He likes me not for my looks but at the way I can respond back to any poster that attacks me. "
Vince writes:
Excuse me LG but I can speak for myself. I like Lady Gambler beacause:
"He likes me not for my looks but at the way I can respond back to any poster that attacks me. "
O.K. I guess that is right too, but, you also wrote:
"Vince likes me for my gutsiness. "
O.K, O.K. Thats correct but, well maybe I should just let you do the talking in the future. I never win!
Vince
BTW - Can I take you up on the folloing challenge.
"Now privately, I can match you in any game and I bet you I will win and drain you of all the energy you've got! "
Have I got a game for you! And we will play for the highest skates possible.
"My being feisty is my appeal to him"
Now that's true too but then you went on and said
Vince,
This post was starting to turn me on a bit and it seemed you hit the "Post Message" Button by accident. Please continue.
Regards,
Rick
LG wrote about Vince:
"He likes me not for my looks but at the way I can respond back to any poster that attacks me. "
Vince writes:
Excuse me LG but I can speak for myself. I like Lady Gambler beacause:
"He likes me not for my looks but at the way I can respond back to any poster that attacks me. "
Now that's true too but then you went on and said:
"My being feisty is my appeal to him"
Now that's true too but then you went on and said
O.K. I guess that is right too, but, you also wrote:
"Vince likes me for my gutsiness. "
O.K, O.K. Thats correct but, well maybe I should just let you do the talking in the future. I never win!
Vince
BTW - Can I take you up on the folloing challenge.
"Now privately, I can match you in any game and I bet you I will win and drain you of all the energy you've got! "
Have I got a game for you! And we will play for the highest skates possible.
Also, Mason gets kind of nervous when you name body parts in your posts. You know the ... for tat thing. Of course now if you are referring to a ... mouse for tat that's entirely different.
Thank goodness there's harmony again! I can't stand two of my Italian guys bickering at each other. Rounder, you're okay, just stop your drooling over there.
As for you, dear Vince, the reason I had to respond for you was because the first time I was under attack by Big John, where were you then? You did not even come to my rescue!! You let me took all the heat and I had to keep my best responding to everyone of them tits for diks.
Now, as for the private game, I can't allow you to be drained of all your energy right now, so calm down. I'll get back to it later, okay?
"maybe vince will find out what lady gambler's real measurements are so he will stop obsessing (it seems like women who falsify their measurements always use even numbers (e.g., 36-24-34). "
Rick,
I like you even though I haven't met you other than on this forum. I open your posts for my own reasons. Now, I will tell you the same thing I tell everyone critical of my posts. They are not mandatory. They will not change. If you find them not to your liking feel free not to click open them. Unlike, Mr X and other bashful posters I put my real name on all my posts.
Have a nice day!
Vince.
Vince,
I use my real name too. If I didn't, why would I come up with a name like Nebiolo. It's not even a catchy name for a half Italian - half Polish guy like myself. The only good thing about being Polish/Italian is that both cultures are famous for their sausage. Anyway, every teacher I had in grade school mispronounced it when it came time for opening day roll call. All my classmates would laugh and make fun of me and that is why I am the nuerotic that I so clearly am. Lucky me I have a good therapist.
BTW, I don't remember being critical of your posts in particular. In fact, you are one of my heroes along with ray zzzzzzz. And I believe we will meet some day in the near future. I have had a vision.
Regards,
Rick
Vince dear Vince,
Okay, enough, Rick was only trying to protect you from Lady Gambler's beguiling charms. Who knows, what he implies could or might be true. But it's not, thank God 'cause what I say is true, and don't worry, I will protect you again if anybody besmears your name in any way.
Now, Rick, you should be grateful to Lady Gambler your student is lurking in the forum. I think she is using my strategy in poker play to her own advantage. And if she can also put into use what Vince advised her in one of her old posts, she will go far, and she will win in almost every poker game (however high the stakes) she plays. I have always used Vince's advice to your student whenever I am in doubt in my postflop plays and it always works to my advantage.
If you read my Reno report you may have noticed the bit about the lolly pop girl - do you think it is a strategy to use god's gifts at the poker table?
Rounder,
Let me first go and read your Reno report before I can respond to you.
Oh Rounder,
Don't be silly. Of course not, but when I go and play poker at a table full of men, what do you think they care when they're at the table? They're always looking and counting how much money is already in the pot and of course, it's my job to distract them from doing just that and that's when I try to show off my feminine advantage especially if the pot is really looking goooooooood.
I love licking lolly pop too but I only do it in private.
X
And just who is this lucky guy "Lolly Pop" my dear?
Vince.
Vince,
I'm betting on LG. I can tell by her bite that she has more stamina than you. BUT CAN SHE DANCE!!!!!
paul
Paul,
You're back! Why bother to dance when gyration is much better!!
Now Vince, this is getting to the border of indecency! Stop it!
Stop it! Stop it! God I wish you hadn't said :"Stop it!" Now what do you mean by that? Do you really want me to Stop it or do you mean Don't stop it! Is that Stauap Itttt! Or is that STOP IT!. I hope it's the former but it may be better for my heart if it's the latter. I have always had trouble reading women.
Vince.
So, guys, do you all have finals this week? Term papers due, that sort of thing? Good luck.
Next semester, how about one of you doing a term paper on the life and times of Herbert O. Yardley? Compare and contrast his two books. Or, if your prof wants something more steeped in acadeeemia, how about an update of POKER FACES by David Hayano?
Speaking of term papers, I am still carrying an "Incomplete" in Brit Lit from spring of '67. Got anything you could send me?
1. Yes, I do have finals
2. Yardley has written THREE books: American Black Chamber, Education of a Poker Player, Chinese Black Chamber
3. Most schools don't allow degrees to be completed if there is more than a 15 or 20 year gap between courses.
the Kid
where do you go to college? you have finals?
holy cow.
are you a whiz kid? like a "math magician"?
do you perform at kid's birthday parties?
yeah, I do birthday parties. ..Bar Mitzvahs too. I solve advanced trig problems and do geometric proofs to the amazement of lox packing, yamukah wearing throngs.
I work cheap and I'm not too booked for 2000, so act now.
the kid
do you like triangles?
yeah, finals etc. starting this thrursday. thanks for the luck. i need it. german and math and physics will be super hard. econ and lit and squash (there's no final in squash) will be easy.
our lit class has been all greek and hebrew so far. we may read some british stuff next semester. i'll see what i can do.
scott
Hay dumkoff,
Greek, Hebrew, German? My God that sounds tough, I had enough trouble with high school spanish & English. What are you studying to become scott?
-Zero
PS. Did I spell dumkoff correctly?
no, no. the greek and hebrew is translated into english. we read homer and euripides and a bunch of other greek stuff and the old and new testament. but i am trying to learn german.
i am not really trying to become anything. except perhaps educated.
nien, ich bin einen dummkopf.
scott
Homer! Like the Iliad and the Odyssey, Right? That's tough, so many characters constantly being referred to as I recall, in the Iliad, I think--it's been a while.
I'd wish you luck, but I'm sure you don't need it. Regards, Zero
Yeah you dummkoff don't you got no book learnin' - I watch kirk douglas movies so I know all about it.
To see if you are educated, translate the following:
Si hoc legere scis nimium gruditionis habes.
-Joe
The Joe I know would much rather play with those duct tape encased swords and daggers instead of learning about tornadoes.
but then again, they were damn fun
alex
"Si hoc legere scis nimium gruditionis habes."
Si - See or Wow
Hoc - Hog or Pig
legere- legs or feet
scis - Ski or skiing
mimium - nimbly
gruditionis -( that's a hard one) - gracefully or greasefully
habes - hot sauce
So we have:
"Si hoc legere scis nimium gruditionis habes. "
"Wow pig feet nimbly and gracefully skiing in hot sauce."
Yeah I remember this saying from when I was a little boy. Thanks for the memories. Use to yell it out every time we had dem hog feet fo sunday dinner.
Vince.
Say Abe, was 1967 The Summer of Love, Drugs, or Poker for you? I hope that "I" didn't get you sent to the war..
Yes, it WAS the "summer of love" --- and everything else you mentioned too. What can I say?
Even Vince was probably young then.
From reading their posts, most of them went to the same high school. I get the idea that they were brilliant and bored and looking for virtually any way to keep themselves amused. I wonder if their former vice principal has a pronounced twitch.
I think that only scott and niels were overtly iconoclastic in school. I was a bit of a pushover, and mark would be a narc for the school any minute of the day.
I have been gravely insulted sir, I thereby challenge you to a duel. Pistols at twenty paces at high noon tomorrow? We'll meet in front of my door. If you're not there you will officially be declared a woman and laughed at even more so than usual. Good day sir,
Mark
And if anyone was a snitch it was Craig. That boy would sell his own mother for a package of cheese crackers.
hey blabbed the lesbian thing all over school in 10th grade and still hasn't admitted it.
I see the validity of your first point, but not how it pertains to the second. How does craig being a snitch, which is well documented, relate to my being a bitch, which is neither true nor appropriate for this forum. Methinks you are simply overcompensating for failures in other areas with extreme bravado. Whiz kid agrees with me. Maybe one day, with professional help, you will be able to overcome these deep, psychological problems and become a valued member of society. Until then you'll simply be a borderline communist with a Saddam Hussein fetish. Good luck and God speed.
Mark
x
the same principal who suspended me because he didn't like my body language took me out to a very nice lunch after i won some award. and he was so nice. it seemed he had forgotten our previous encounter.
scott
We've just added an Events forum to contain information about poker tournaments, etc. Please visit it for more details.
Chuck
how about telling your cardroom(or tournament) managers where you play that they can post their tourn. info there. thats a way everyone can help to improve it.
OK, this is the grand opening of the 2+2 (and, to be inclusive, any other poker players) photo gallery! Just go to my poker page - http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/ - and click at the top on "Photo Gallery."
NOW - YOU GUYS - AND GALS - Let's get with the program here. I have exactly 3 - count'em - 3 - photos to start with. So a pioneering award goes to Rounder and Mike Blair, who along with me are it so far. Come on, Brenda, Diane, Lady Gambler - we do have Mike's lovely wife, but I'm sure you are all better looking than me - or worse yet, Rounder. Send 'em in.
Instructions: Whatever you want me to publish, send. The only required items are the photo and your posting name. Optional are: full name, where you regularly play, and a short bio or other blurb. (PS Rounder - do you want your name put on?) Send to:
Dick in Phoenix
D.in P.,
You should have more than 3 photos, just leaf through a card player mag., or Digest and you'll have a picture of Badger(tournament results), Sklansky, Mason, now you've got six, and well on your way!
-Don't mention it, Michael
Michael - Good suggestion. I do want each individual's permission, and of course any additional information they want to post.
People who want me to use an existing on-line image of themselves should send me the link.
Dick
Those posters who don't have either a digital camera or access to a scanner can send me their photo by regular mail.
My address is on my web page; click Contact Us at the top of the page.
Dick
This is scary stuff!
Brett
he found my picture on the internet somewhere. maybe he can tell you where. i don't have a scanner or a camera or even a picture of myself, so it pretty much has to be this way. as for name, etc. just send me an email when/if you find my picture and i will let you in on my secrets. like my last name. and where i go to school.
scott
Scott - You must be quite deprived if you don't have pictures of yourself.
Go down to Grand Central Station, and there are little booths where you can take your own passport pictures. Then send one in.
I can't wait to find out where you go to school.
Dick
x
Trivia question. I have an interest in the old riverboat era. As you may or may not know, very few paddlewheel riverboats still offer overnight accomodations on-board (only the American Queen and the Mississippi Queen, as far as I know). Simply, there aren't that many existing paddlewheels. Anyway, after watching the movie "Maverick", I'm curious as to whether or not the riverboat "Lauren Belle" was actually a real paddlewheel, a prop made only for the movie (if so, what paddlewheel was used for the distance shots), or which existing riverboat did they use?
I attended "Tall Stacks '99" at the Port of Cincinnati this year and none of the riverboats in attendance appeared to match what was used in the movie.
Anyone have a solid answer?
I scored in a tournament last Wed. night and was feeling frisky so I decided last Thursday morning, after looking at the tournament line up for the weekend in Phoenix, to venture to Reno for the Pot of Gold tournament. Made the decision at 9am and was playing in the 1st satellite by 1pm.
The tournament was well run and was staffed by several familar faces - Barbara was there running the satellites as efficentially as always - she had run the wsop satellites and is on the tournament circuit now.
My success in the tournament was limited. Played in one super satellite and chopped 2 ways, was 4 for 9 in one table satellites chopping 3 - I played in 3 tournaments (basically for free as my satellite play supported these misadventures).
The sad tournament story went like this - Friday afternoon Limit HE $120 buyin and 1 rebuy - had 3 flopped sets snapped in the 3rd round. They hurt as all 3 sets were flopped with hole pairs they were beaten on the river after substancial heat was applied by me and only this same Asian Gentleman who always raised if he had a T in his hand (you see T is his lucky card) - now this bit of high level poker strategy has aluded Sklansky or Malmuth but I am sure we will be reading about it in future high level poker strategy works. Hey I thought you were supposed to win when you flopped sets - who ever said that didn't know about the T thing.
Evening NL HE $120/100 RB limited to 60 players tourney was much different I was sailing aling with my sights firmley set on 1st place HUH - I was hitting so well this other Asian gentleman refused to play against me - one time after I raised the pot he called his wife over to show her he was mucking TT cuz I was "so lucky" I am sure this guy never mucked an Ax before in his life.
There were about 17 or so left at the last 2 tables (wish Big John was there to report this as he is so much more accurate than me) and I am in BB with KhQh mid position big stack (almost as big as mine) and sb call my modest raise. Flop comes Th9h5h - sb who is a fairly small stack puts it all in about $600, I shoot them all in and then look at the tight solid mid position guy and he is pushing all in and I know I'm sunk anyone else there and I'm not sure - well he turns over Ah5h and I only have the Jh as an out for a straight flush it doesn't come and I'm crippled with a ew hundred left. (When is the last time anyone saw 3 flushes flopped I don't think I have ever seen it). The rest is accademic. I love NL HE but one can get beat like this at any moment.
Sat. is the big one -$330 buy in and no rebuys. Did not make any big mistakes - was knocked out by the 2nd break 4 1/2 hours into the tourney cards just didn't run my way for a long time - will post the only possible mistake hand later in the tournament section. I was tempted at one point to call the floor over to ask him if he would ask this beautiful woman with a see through blouse licking this lolly pop to stop it and cover up - I thought it was bordering on player abuse and fighting not to be distracted - I was happy to see her retired lolly pop and all.
I did end up at a table with the Peppermill crowd the card room manager Bobby Vee was on my left for quite a while and I asked him if he knew Diane B from Green Bay - Bobby had a GB packers hat on - and he said to send his regards to Diane so I am doing that. Diane I promised Bobby I'd come to his spring event so I may see you there. He saw my advanced play and wanted another fish to round out the field I guess. :-)
That's all I can report in mixed company - actually it was a great trip and I wish I could say I played profitable poker but I just about broke even on the trip with poker the bright side was the $900 I won playing a silly game called 3 card poker - it's a pit game and you get paid on the 3 card hand you get, a straight flush paid 40 to 1 - 3 of a kind 30-1 and so on I was lucky here (or was it skill?) but it made the trip worth while and Big John I am not putting the 3 card poker profits in my hourly rate calculations so don't ax.
So you guys think I should be serving crackers with all this whine.
:-)
Rounder,
Glad to hear you got out of Reno with all your money. Don't be too discouraged that you failed to cash in the Pot O' Gold. Unlike the easy pickings in So. Cal. and Arizona tournaments, these Nevada players are all tough.(One of them told me that yesterday after he successfully three bet me on the river when he had the nut hand. I was sorry to see him leave the game since I enjoyed the wisdom he kept bestowing on us right up until he went broke. He told me, among other things, that I wouldn't have any chips at all if it wasn't for the river. I was going to offer him $3.00 for his U of Nevada Runnin Rebels hat, but he left before I thought to do it.)
If I were you, I would be ashamed to admit on this forum that I played anything less mainstream than traditional poker. I don't know where you get off introducing a -EV game like 3 card poker to us purists. Please send me the rules and other particulars by email.
Post deleted at author's request.
Hey Rounder- Thanks for passing along a howdy from Billy V. He is a great guy and also happens to hail from WI. (He was just smart enought to leave, and I am stuck here yet)
I wish I could get to the Hilton Tourneys also plus Peppermill, but just can't squeeze it all in.
Not sure if I will be at Peppermill's Spring event or not. It conflicts with the big tourney at Tunica and I can't do both.
Diane
Diane,
Please post the dates for the Tunica tourneys in the Events forum. I might go there, but I have to plan a few months in advance. Thanks and good luck!
It is a $60 X 10 winner take all satellite NL HE - we are down to 3 handed I am small stack but only by a few hundred I have $800 and there is only $3000 on the table. I am on the button with Kc8c I put in an all in raise to make a run at the pot and I like my chances 3 handed with a K high.
Other two guys call me I think at least two of us are all in - flop comes A 8 5 - 2 clubs - I turn my hand over - turns out these two guys have a few chips each. Dealer calls floor over and they rule my hand dead. My fault??? - It hurt cuz a K fell on the turn. I win this hand I win the satellite but I'm out.
Other places I play if someone does this it is not ruled a dead hand. Besides being stupid of me any other comments.
Pretty standard ruling. By exposing your hand, you might affect the action another playes gives or gets on his hand. If you think about it, you are better off not exposing and hoping one bets the other out of the hand. Both are less likely to do this if they know your hand.
Nothing wrong with this ruling. Your inexperience did you in.
Brett
Post deleted at author's request.
Post deleted at author's request.
The difference between Badger's hand and Rounder's is the extra player in Rounder's. By turning his hand up before the action was completed, Rounder might have influenced the betting unfairly. He was all-in and they weren't, it was his responsibity to know that. You shouldn't turn your hand up in this situation in live action either, but it probably wouldn't be ruled dead.
Brett
Post deleted at author's request.
Post deleted at author's request.
Post deleted at author's request.
His hand'd be dead at the WSOP, if I'm remembering correctly.
Could you briefly explain to me how what Rounder did might be construed as collusion? I don't get it.
-Rookie
I was a mistake -
I don't like K-x suited for an all-in move short-handed. For every one of those I've won with that particular hand, I've probably lost 10. I'd much rather have two facecards, even unsuited.
Earl - In a 3 handed game I like a K as much as I like TT in a full table.
Im about to play my first game in a cardroom (im a begginer). The problem is that im going with a friend and we will probably sit at the same table. Now, is that against poker etiquette? As begginers we dont want to eat ourselves up (is that what is called softplaying?). Of course we are not cheaters and we wont have a set of signals or any others means of communication. But if we are the only ones left in the pot one of us will drop quickly. Can this be considered as cheating or collusion? Should we just ignore this and play normally? I look forward to your advice (and i hope my english is correct...)
Since I have no friends it is hard for me to concieve of letting someone off the hook just because I came to the casino with them. I'd suggest playing at seperate tables. I never could understand husbands and wives playing at the same table but it happens all the time.
Problem is, im going to be playing in France were Poker is not widespread. Im probably going to have to choose from maximum two tables. Im defintly going to end up with him anyway...now he seems to be more of a bother than a friend. Youre probably right: ill just play normally. But how do husband and wives play together? Dont you notice a slight form of collusion? Isnt that a problem?
It usualy isn't a problem they usually are horrible players anyway.
Frenchy,
Even though I owe Rounder a drink if I was ever in a game with him I would take his last cent if I could. Then I would buy him a drink. There would be no hard feelings either way. When I play other friends (rarely), we are extra competitive against each other in the pot.
The same goes for my student who I sometimes play with. Getting her last rack is my ultimate goal and she knows it. That is the only ethical way to play and the way you should too.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
I once check-raised my Aunt who I loved very much.
:-)
Oh, please Rick, don't take her last "rack". You owe it to the rest of us to leave that last "rack" firmly in place. ;-)
I frequently play at the same table as a very close friend of mine. We play in the AC casinos, and the tables are usually quite full so we don't have a choice many times. I know I'll catch heat from the rest of the posters here, but we play against the rest of the table, and not against each other. On hands that come down to head to head between us, we check to the end, showdown, remember the pot and split it later. In essence, this can be construed as a sort of team play. I only do this with this one individual, because we have been like brothers for over 10 years. We sometimes play out of the same bankroll. However, against any other friend, I try to, in the words of Muhamed Ali, "beat him like I'm his daddy!"
What you are doing is a form of cheating. Repent!
One thing that used to piss me off is when two friends at the same table will raise and re-raise to drive out other players. This is collusion and will usually be addressed by the floor boss if brought to his attention.
But then it occured to me: When it is apparent this is going on, having this information should work in my favor. It means these two player/friends can be expected to have lesser hands when raising. Think of the check-raise possibilities (for you) when you have a hand.
I agree with Rounder and Rick - When I play against friends, which happens rarely, they "cease" to become my friend at the table - I will not soft play them at all... Shooter - What you are doing is cheating, as Big John says, and it should be stopped. I get VERY upset when I see friends softplaying each other at the tables. I think it is BS, and should NOT be tolerated. Opinion by Vince- um... Tim
It seems like 2 out of every 3 hands in the 3-6 and 4-8 games I play in involve some sort of softplaying among "friends". These people seem to think it is unseemly to bet at someone heads-up on the river. Yikes! I spend half the time trying to get heads-up with people, and I'm now supposed to check it down at the end? I don't think so. About the only way I will get into this sort of situation is if for example, I call in early position and everyone else except the BB folds. It happens about once a month. I will usually say, "roll'em" and the BB is almost always willing to go along. I could probably win most of those hands, but I find it is not worth coming across as a "bad guy" for the $7 in the pot.
Any Phoenix or Chicago area players who don't have a way of supplying Dick a pic for the gallery and want one posted let me know I can take your pic or a pic of a pic with my digital camera.
Sorry, but I am not familiar with the term "tilt". Could someone please explain what it means when a player is "on tilt"? Much appreciated.
Basically it means a player has lost his temper and is making bad plays because his emotions are getting the best of him.
I just read through the "Canadian vs US" thread, which I discovered had very little humour of any value. For those of you with a sense of humour, try to see "Tha Canadian Conspiracy", which is an SCTV alumni film detailing Canada's attempt to takeover the United States through the entertainment industry. It is likely the funniest film ever made regarding the 49th parallel.
My serious comment is in refernce to AlexB "Five, has Canada ever had a major presence in any war, ever? No. "
I would allow other Canadians to expound on this if they wish, but let me say that I hope you were joking AlexB. Many Canadians have fought in countless significant battles throughout history, most notably the Second World War, and died. Many.
I am also of the opinion that military might has no significance whatsoever on the value of a country on this planet. In that, I hope most of you will agree, or there truly is no hope for mankind.
Oh....and we're funnier than you too :)
I would much rather be funny, but feel the need to defend my statement.
I said major presence in a war. I meant major presence in a war, I was not joking, and I am not joking.
What I said was meant in no way to defame the lives of those Canadians who died in those wars, I simply meant that in WWII Canada was not a major presence. Now, did Canada do the right think in fighting in the allied side? absolutely. But I cannot stand their stance of cultural superiority to the boorish United States, who has in truth probably protected their cultural and political sovereignty.
And you are not funnier, except when you say a-boot. Watch South Park.
alex
I will not respond to your comments, other than to say they are made in ignorance.
As I said, I had hoped you were joking.
"a tale told by an idiot/full of sound and fury/signifying nothing"
alex
Alex, Talk to the Dutch.
Talk to the families of those who died taking beaches on D-Day. Different beaches than those the Americans stormed.
Ask the American and British generals why they felt it so important to send in the Canadian troops first so often. Expendable?
Why did the American military wait for 2 years to join the war. Maybe waiting to see who would gain the upper hand? If Hitler had invaded Britain the war would have already been over. Europe was already conquered and it was only the British/Commomwealth troops who were left as well as the underground. Hitler was an idiot for attacking the Soviet Union and that helped as well.
As well, What the hell happened in 1812 anyway?
I, also, hope you are kidding.
i don't like to see such serious discussions, so i will try to resolve this.
first of all, everyone who fought against the fascists and, to a lesser extent, the japanese imperialists deserves to be greatly honored. whether they wore a uniform or not. whether they died or not. perhaps those who paid the ultimate price earn some special consideration, but that does not make their deaths less tragic. nor does that tragedy make their deaths unnecessary. i am sure that alex did not mean that their indivdual sacrifice was anything less than individual sacrifice of any other nation's troops.
second of all, there is no way that the rooselvelt's administration was going to fight with the axis powers. he was not waiting for to see who would win. if he was, he would have joined the other side. there were several reason's that the us did not enter the war earlier, most of them politcal. personally, i think it was wrong to delay. in fact, i think it was wrong not to defend spain from the fascists. it should have been brought to a head way back then.
on the issue of which countries were important in the victory, i am sure they all were. admitedly, military history is not one of my strong points. and to be honest, i have only studied the european front of world war two form the perspectives of the us and the europeans. canada was not mentioned. i did not even know whether they had fought mostly in the pacific or on the continent.
i garner from your post that they joined the war early and fought in europe. i do not think anyone is saying that the canadians did not help the allied cause. what is being said is that the allies were losing until america joined (and russia). then they won. and it was primarlily the britsh held the stalemate. i think the largest contributions to winning the war was clearly from the us, ussr, and uk.
as for 1812, that is really not important. that war was pretty irrelevent and neither side won. british troops were able to defend against a misguided invasion into canada. granted. but if canada's major presence in a major war is during 1812, then i am afraid alex is correct.
scott
The war of 1812 certainly isn't irrelevent. Defending an invasion sucessfully is a victory.
Of course Canada was a major force in WWII. The merchant marines took large losses but got the supplies there. The Cdn troops who fought had the highest casualty rate but were known as fierce and brave fighters. The high casualty rate was due to the situations they were placed in.
It was Canadian troops that liberated the Netherlands.
The Canadian government declared war with Germany 1 week after Britain. This was mostly a political move to show our independance. In WWI we were automatically at war once Britain was.
The Russians had a truce with Hitler and joined after the truce was betrayed.
The Americans did not join until after Pearl Harbour. I think the excuse was that the Japanese were alligned with Germany somehow. Obviously Military History is not my forte either (Poker is!)
We should all thank God that the Americans did join in finally.
We are a county of roughly 1/10 the population of the US. I would suggest that Canada's effort per capita wa s greater over the course of the war. Canadians at the time were more closely tied to Britain.
As you stated, it was an allied effort and no role should be downplayed. I have personally thanked Poker players whom I found out, fought in the war. My grandfather lost a lung in WWI. My uncle joined as a 16 year old (he lied about his age - should have been 18). He never once talked about it but I believe it damaged him quite severely (prone to drinking too much).
What one says is important. Making a comment such as Alex's is not trivial.
I'm reminded of the 'HitchHikers Guide to the Galaxy' where someones trivial utterance is transfered through a intergalactic(dimesional) gap and miscontrued as an insult in the peace talks of 2 planets. It's starts a bloody war which stops when the mistake is dicovered and the source of words (Earth) is determined.
A huge force is gathered and sent to destroy Earth but when they get there they are accidently swallowed by a small dog.
Thought I'd end this on a humerous note!
"Talk sense to a fool, and he calls you foolish"
alex
Alex,
My dander was/is up. (I wonder if I'm old enough to have 'dander' yet).
I do not intend to discuss this beyond this post.
I'll take the Euripides comment as having as meaning that your humour was misunderstood (like Euripides). Accepted.
As for the foolish part. I do not like to appear foolish but I am not afraid to. To be afraid to appear foolish can limit the ways you may perceive events and opinions. It can also stop you from saying what you believe is right. I would not have made these comments if I were afraid of appearing foolish.
Anyway, I'll talk to you in the other threads.
Best Regards Mike N
FYI.
from
http://members.tripod.com/%7EMemory_WWII/casualties.html
Deaths
Canada. 42,042
Britain. 264,443 military 92673 civilian
USA 291,131
Russia 11,000,000 military 7,000,000 civilian
Germany 3,500,000 military 780,000
Thus it is clear, that a larger percentage of Canadias population was lost in WWII than the USA's. Whether this has any bearing on this inane argument or not I am not sure.
I am sure that Canadia pulled their weight.
Todd
i think the most important thing is we all like funny stuff. war and death is bad. ford prefect is good.
scott
I saw from a post in another area that AlexB is from Montgomery county MD. I assume that his "pack is too"
-scott, maniac mark, whiz kid.
Is this true. What limits do you guys usually play, and how often. Have you been up to AC to try out your home game experience on a tougher/easier crowd?
As I said in the other forum. We are in the wheaton/rockville area, and play a fun, low limit game. Usually we play 1-5 structure with dimes. Although we use chips. Several grraduate students in the game, so we want to keep it low enough that no one loses his shitr. Nobody gets rich, nobody loses more than 10-20 bucks a shot, but it goes from 8pm to 3ish am when it goes.
During the school year, we played once a week; during break we'll play whenever we can get a full table together. Probably somewhere in Silver Spring or Potomac. I've generally gotten stuck with the organizing tasks. Email me if and when you want to come and I'll set up a game. I'll be home tomorrow and I'd like to come to your game. I'll bring Scott.
We play .50/1.00, mostly 7stud or HE, depending on number of people who show up. And we're too young to play in AC.
i'm not mad, but whizkid is not now, nor ever has been cool enough to be in my pack. Also, he has a dorky name. Whizkid, do you like triangle? Are they your favorite shape?
alex
I was a little worried about the triangle remark, but it is tough to tell who goes along with whom in cyberspace.
T
I'd never want to be in any club that would have someone like me as a member!
-the Kid
yeah. we'll be in town after finals. that's a week for alex and i. i'd love to play in your game. you are invited to ours. poker is fun. everyone loves poker. email me.
scott
Will you guys be able to get your school email at home? Can you telnet to that machine? Do the kids still telnet like they did in my day?
I will be in touch.
Todd
yeah. i still telnet. but i am not exactly mr computer, so i don't know wat kids these days do. you can ask mac. he's a friend of ours at caltech with djtj and jamesh. he is not very good at poker, but he is super tight so he loses slowly. or you can ask david moore --
the problem with david moore is that he doesn't like epson. david moore thinks he's all cool because he won some meaningless award for his computer research. and he and epson were compteting for some scholarship that duke offers. epson made the final round and david did not. that made david mad. the cool thing was that epson didn't want to win. he wrote crime and punishment as his favorite book. then, when they asked him about it at the interview, he said that he hadn't read it. epson's a great guy. not like david who's
-- also at caltech. he only played once and lost his money very quickly. they know all about computers.
scott
agreed, Epson is one of my favorite people in the entire world.
That was one of the stupidest posts I have ever read. I think we're all dumber for having read it. Who cares about Micheal Maire and David Moore? I know I don't. As for holiday poker, I'm all for it.
hey, dropped by to say i like the postings. I'll be happy to come to a poker game over the holidays and lose my $20 or so. See ya guys later.
Epson
don't forget about mills
Niels said he was back? How about everyone else? I'm ready to play, just not till this Saturday. Too many finals to go.
-Joe
is already out. djtj is stinking up my room right now. i'll be back tues night. but i might fly down this weekend if you're donating. my finals aren't that important.
scott
that Scott was ignoring his education for cards. See how wrong you were!?!?
Kid
Good to know, but not just yet. The rent's won't appreciate if I don't do well on the finals. Tho, I'm done saturday at 6pm. *shrug*
-Joe
x
dont worry rounder, I will keep a close eye on them
Todd
Rounder? You there?
Where does your name come from. Are you a rounder in the sense that you make your living at cards (I learned that from the movie rounders) Or are you round. In elementary school did people say "oh, there goes old roundie", "he could go faster if he was rolling". Perhaps that's the reason you chose the poker field after you dropped out of school in fifth grade. Its a great idea. You could keep your nickname, but all of a sudden it would be "cool!"
no more rolling around jokes (indeed, you wouldn't have to roll anywhere anymore. You're whole life would be spent on a stool)
Speaking of which, are you Mike Greene? He went to middle school with us, but then moved to afghanistan or somewhere. Anyway, he too was round, and often brought whole turkey's to school for lunch.
Now, maybe the reason you don't want to sit in our game is that you're worried about the chairs. Don't worry, you can built a mountain of cushions and even tell people that you're eating for two if you want. Its up to you! We won't give the secret away about your youth. You could also wear once of those funny robes that Homer wore when he became orca-fat.
people like you like to keep it real, real round (c. rock)
keep it round
see you around
alex
If you want to see me check out Dicks Gallery. I'm the guy with the shades.
Alex if you don't shut up I'm gonna get some 18 year old girl to kick your butt I can't do it myself cuz I don't want to be arrested for child abuse.
http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/photos.htm
actually rounder, how about this we'll play play money heads up on paradise poker
if you win, I'll stop posting if I win, actually you won't lose anything, maybe you could send a pair of cool shades like the ones you got.
alex
Al - I won't do cyber poker for the same reasons I don't do cyber sex.
Maybe some day we'll meet at the final table of the WSOP - you and me the last two for the cool million.
I go all in with my KTo and you call me with your 6s4s
See ya.
I was going to post this in the EVENTS section, but since it is about a cancellation, I didn't think that was a appropriate.
Once again the higher ups in Casino management have snubbed poker!!
When I was in Reno in October for the fall Peppermill Tournament I learned that Billy V. and his crew were expanding their tournaments to 4 a year from the two they had been running.
There was to be a big tournment there at the end of January. I had made plans to attend and was responsible I believe for encouraging several others to attend also.
I have just gotten confirmation from Billy V, Peppermill Poker Room Manager that despite his very exhaustive efforts, the tournament has been cancelled by top management. It was cancelled due to their grand re-opening and celebration of their expansion or something to that effect.
Knowing Billy, I am sure he did ALL that he could to try and convince them to reverse their decision. He has been working hard with player tracking cards to show casino management that poker players generate lots of revenue outside of the poker room.
But to no avail and now no January tournament.
I am going to write a letter of protest and support of the poker room and their tournaments to casino management, and urge all of you who care, to do the same thing.
Diane
Diane,
Thanks for the note I was thinking of going there but now will be at Harras for the Carnivale at Harras.
Why is it so hard to win at the low-limit loose, no-foldem holdem games? It clearly has something to do with everyone staying in too often and drawing out. But if this is bad play, why is it not easier for a good player to ascend? If you play only better cards at a table like this, you are going to be recognized as such (loose players are not necessarily stupid) and will not be seeing many of the huge pots that the 'lesser' players are.
big,
You have to find tables where they are not more than 3 loose players the problem is trying to beat an entire table and it is hard for a good player to score when all of them are drawing out.
Table selection is very very important and find tables that are not so loose.
I believe the good player still has quite and edge with more loose players but the swings go up.
The real problem is if there are frequent raises, I don't mind playing against a whole table that will not raise much before the flop. Even with the raisers in, the game is still quite good but becomes boring has you wait for you chance to win a monster pot and will have huge swings as well.
I say find tables that are as loose as possible but not to wild.
D.
Look I have this table selection thing down to a science - I will win 8 out of 10 sessions or more with the right mix of players - I have a difficult time winning in a all rock table and too loose wild table.
It costs nothing to find the right table why play at a table that is more difficult to win at when the jucy one is next door.
Probably you have trouble winning at a table with all loose but passive players because you refuse to draw to some good long shots. Those playing correctly will do great is such games.
I agree that the game you describe is also very good and somewhat easier to play too but not all players have access to every type of game at all times.
D.
That may have more to do with your individual playing style than it does with how difficult the games are to beat. From what I've read of your posts, your style is very much suited to the games that you say you do the best in, and I'm sure you're tough as nails in such games.
When the game is very loose, that style just doesn't cut it. Loose passive games are the most profitable, if you adjust your game to them.
It is easier to beat "low-limit loose, no-foldem holdem games" over the long run, and you will beat them for more big bets an hour than you will a tougher game. However, there is a good chance that your variance will be much higher. Over time, bad play does not beat good play, no matter how many people are playing badly.
I believe a lot of players have a tough time playing the no-foldem games because they don't make the adjustments. They should leave much of their playbook at home, and realize which hands go up in value and which onces go down. Rarely, rarely bluff, semi-bluff almost as rarely, and bet for value a whole lot more. And, don't worry about being recognized as a player who only plays quality starting hands. One, you should be playing more drawing hands (under appropriate conditions, of course), and when they hit, people will give you credit for loose play. Two, low limit players ARE NOT aware for the most part.
PRC
You said:
"It is easier to beat "low-limit loose, no-foldem holdem games" over the long run,"
Key words long run - how long - 10 hours or 10 months.
Post deleted at author's request.
Well said Gary - I just some kind of Fu--ing idiot who gets confused by 9 maniac players, doesn't understand 6th grade math, can't understand Sklansky's extreemly high level of strategy (he should be at NASA) and purposly misposts my hands to impress you poker gurus.
I hope you all have a nice Christmas too.
I think you and other "experts" are giving dangerous advice to younger inexperienced players and you and others are causing them to lose lose lose.
Just an opinion from the village idiot.
If you have the proper bank roll and mind set, I say who cares??? However, I don't think the "long run" in no fold 'em is much longer your standard 10-20. It would be easy to determine if you had good sample data of standard deviations between the two games and hourly win rates, but I don't think it is worth while to worry about it to much.
PRC
I'm sorry, but that just isn't correct. The pots get even bigger when you start rammin' and jammin' with the nuts too. You give these people too much credit. They want big pots. They will assist you when you are in the process of building one. If you ever slowplay in a big pot trying to get in a checkraise to drive people out, half the time, it is your raise that creates the betting frenzy that draws them in like moths to a flame. I like to bet my strongest hands at every single opportunity. In a real good game, one or two maniacs will raise and reraise me. The people who are aware enough to think about possibly mucking their thin draws, often decide to call three bets because they reason that the raiser and reraiser might be popping it for reasons that have nothing to do with their cards. The secret of winning in the No Fold Em games is to go along with the maniacs when they are buiding huge pots on those occasions when you probably have the best hand, or certainly have the best draw. Become a "good hand maniac" rather than an "any hand maniac". They won't notice the difference and will think of you as one of them.
Part of being a better player is finding ways to ensure that you win your share of the huge pots. It becomes a lot more enjoyable when you can seem to play their game but are really playing yours.
I'm not aholdem player but while waiting for 15-30 stud game at the commerce I played 6-12 nofoldem .I had read s&m 21st holdem on the flight from ny and focused on playing suited ace ,when in fact I made the flush ,I often got rased by top pair or two pair.The game was so good ,I won $610 in 3 hours.
You know how the instant we post a new message, we momentarily end up on that "thanks for your message" page, right. Then we can return to index,right.
Well I was just wondering: while you were ever reading the titles of posts, trying to decide which one you wanted to check out, have you ever seen a new message pop-up right in front of your eyes? Or do they only pop-up while you are traveling from, lets say, a message title page, to the actual detailed message, or from one forum to another, makes sense? I've never seen one pop-up, and was just curious. (Do I need to get a job or what? Too much free time on my hands.)
-Couch Potato
Do the lights inside the refrigerator go off once you close the refrigerator door?
Yes they do, I did a study on this very subject, back in '93 with a $30,000 government grant.
-pdk
PS: I don't recall ever seeing a message pop up.
You only got $30k?? I once did a study on whether trees make noise when they fall in the woods and there is nobody there to hear it(the results were inconclusive). I got a grant for $250k. You got ripped off!
Oh, I thought I saw one pop up once, but I'm pretty sure I was just seeing things (it was right after I finished reading that "Don't mess with my family" thread)
Mr. Blair,
I didn't get ripped off, the study only took me ten minutes to perform. I cleaned out my fridge, hopped inside, closed the door, and that was that. My report was so damn good, they immediately gave me another $600,000 grant to study the long-term effects of toe-jam in the environment.
Sincerely, pdk
you are truly an invaluable asset to our society.
Mike
Warning Warning Warning: On Dick in Phoenix's site, http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/photos.htm
scott's ugly mug is right below Johnny Hale's - I mean yours....
Frightening...
:) Tim
i also saw some longhair on a motorcycle. we need a good old fashioned hippie beating. boys, set your batons on whamp.
scott
x
yEAH - WHO THE HELL WAS THAT?
Someone get the Sheriff...
Post deleted at author's request.
dfjbvd
I am heading to Vegas for Xmas and trying to find a list of cardrooms before I go. Can anyone point me to a place to find out who has how many tables, what games, what limits and what tournaments? I am hoping that some kind soul has put this info online but haven't found it yet.
Do any of the magazines print this info?
Thanks.
KJS
PS> If it matters, I will be playing mostly 4-8 HE, maybe 10-20 too. Maybe a little OM Hi-Lo.
Try Cardplayers cardroom. They have a partial list.
Check out pokersearch.com for an extensive listing.
have a good trip
Both these gentleman have claimed at various times to "have won more Omaha8 tournaments than anyone...". Who da Man?
(I'm just having fun here. Marlon's a good guy, and I have a lot of respect for Badger's posts here. I'd sure rather have paid $50 to see the two them play a headsup O8 match, than for watching the Lewis-Holyfield and De La Hoya-Trinidad fights, I can assure you.)
Marlon is also a pretty good hold 'em player. I suspect that both being good players, neither would be interested in a heads up match. Poker, unlike boxing, does not reward top players to square off.
Although, as Malmuth states, poker doesnt tend to reward top players for squaring off against one another, does anybody think the top players would like to go against each other to see who exactly is the best of the best??
And who would be the eight or nine players invited to sit in this game?
What should the game consist of? Maybe a combination of games at a set limit? and the game would have to stretch out over a period of time, say weekly or bi weekly for a year.
At what limit?? In my opinion, the players would have to put up their OWN money. No partners, No stakes. None of this Skins Games shit where millionares play for someobdy else's money and risk none of their own.
So, if you had to set up a Best-of-the-Best game, who do you think should play, how should it be played, and who, when its all said and done, do you think would be the winner?
Also, do you think the top players would even want to play in a game like this? Because, like most home games where the same players get together each week, a trend of the same winners and losers will emerge. And will the threat of that scare the top players off?
What do you guys think?
Gambler
Well, the TOC is probably about as close as we'll ever get. When you consider that David Chiu, Doyle, and Men all made the final table out of 664(?) starters, that's pretty impressive.
I don't think you'll ever get those three plus Miami John, TJ, Bonetti, Hellmuth, Huck, and Chan (or Berry or McEvoy or O'Neil or..)to each put up $10-20K to play each other in a series of one-two table freezeouts; 1st-10 pts, 2nd-7pts, etc. Which leads to another point, namely that "Best All-around Player" awards are a complete joke. The Gold Coast's (or maybe it was the Four Queens) points went like 1st-48, 2nd-44, 3rd-40, and on down. So one year you had the ridiculous situation where Bonetti won three tourneys at the Queens but didn't finish in the top five for all-around, and a guy(s) who didn't make a final table, did.
My guess for the winner of a Best-of-the-Best limited field tournament(s)? TJ. Or Doyle, if first place was big enough.
I'd have to second that nomination. From the TOC records, it appears that in the last five years, only one person has won two WSOP Omaha titles. Add in the number of wins and top-money finishes in hold-em (all varieties), and TJ would appear to be the lowest mutual price to win an invitational event.
But remember, I am not talking about a tournament style freezeout. I am speaking of a home-game style event where its all cash, and at the end of the year we see who won money, who lost, who broke even, etc..... That makes a BIG difference.
Gambler
Assuming you're talking about a HORSE type game, then I say Doyle or Johnny Chan.
Post deleted at author's request.
Sorry, Badger, I forgot the "last five years" part.
Maybe Marlon had this claim MADE FOR HIM; i.e in the Card Player event notes after he won his WSOP title. That's where I read it. When I asked him, he told me that he's "won a lot of Omaha tournaments." Perhaps small, daily-tourney-type wins were counted in this tally.
Again, I was just having fun with this AND I forgot about Miami John. Certainly, no offense or misquotes were meant to anybody.
experiment, three doorlike contraptions, hidden from me, with a friend able to see and manipulate the doors. prize behind one of them, friend randomly picks one of the doors to pick the prize behind, i randomly select a door, friend reveals one of the non prize doors, we record where the prize is. by the reasoning of the monty hall proof, 2/3 of the time the prize will be behind the door i have not chosen. Refute.
Refute what? You should switch, it is more likely behind the other door. Here is an easy variation to illustrate why.
There are now 100 doors with 1 prize behind 1 only.
You pick one at random.
Monty opens 98 empty doors, leaving 1 other.
Do you switch?
D.
nothing to refute. 2/3 of the time the new information you get tells you exactly where prize is. 1/3 of the time it doesn't.
I remember reading about this Monty Hall thing in a book entitled The New Market Wizards. It is in the chapter entitled "Jeff Yass, the mathematics of strategy". Does anyone in this forum know if this is the same Jeff Yoss whom Sklansky (Gambling Times, early 80's)once rated as one of the ten most knowledgable gamblers in the world?
Same guy. Furthermore it is my understanding that his incredibly successful options trading firm, Susquehanna Securities, requires every employee to read Getting The Best of It.
They also encourage their employees to play lots of low limit poker amongst themseleves, as poker is a useful game in many aspects to learn about trading.
The story goes that he occasionally will walk by a 1-2 stud game and throw $100 into the pot, to see how everyone will react to the new pot odds.
Danny
I am so pissed off at the recent abuse I am having to take I'm out of here for a while - I'm back in Illinois for 3 weeks and back to Phoenix. Just Harras (old Showboat) and Hollywood, Aurora to play at so that's where I'll be.
I am planning my 2000 tournament schedule - it will include WSOP, UK championships in Birmingham, possibly the Carnivale of Poker in Jan. I will be planning at least a trip a month for tournament play. Any of you who want a piece of me will be able to find me at these venues.
I suggest in the next year we find a venue where at least 10 of 2+2 posting HE players are in attendance and we do a $500 buy in on a NL - PL or Limit winner take all tournament.
Let's get it ON. I'm ready to rumble.
You guys don't scare me one little bit.
The fact that nobody seems to be bound by thread topics anymore means that I don't know who has been insulting you lately. To find out would require me to read every thread -- which is clearly not a wise use of time. Besides the Ivy League wags who's hurt your feelings now?
don't have the cash, but try to put the Ted Jou holiday classic on your tourney schedule for 2000. it'll be the first week after new years. Buy in, 20, winner take all, but everyone gets some serious snacks.
it's been fun sparring with ya. best of luck.
alex
Mike,
If you can find eight others willing to play a $500 Winner Take-All freeze out NL Hold-em in So. Cal., count me in.
If anything I wrote hurt your feelings, I apologize. Attacks on your playing style aren't attacks on you as a person. If one sees a discrepency between what you say and what you do, mentioning that does not constitute an attack.
I'm assuming that you will continue reading this forum. You and I both know that it is addictive. I wish you and yours a Happy Holiday and a Prosperous NEW Year!
Big John
Rounder,
You best have your testosterone level checked. If that's not the cause please send me whatever it is you are taking.
Vince.
Rounder,
Take care of your family and when we meet I'll teach you "EBONICS" gotitbrotherstaycoolman. ditchinyounowman!!!!
THE BIG E
have a nice new year. see you later.
scott
Maybe will get to see you some time next year when I retire and have more time to travel. Will buy you lunch but might not play against you just yet. Dave
Rounder,
Post before you hit Southern California again. We still owe you a cocktail. Good luck in the new year.
Student and Rick
I am probably going to make the Crystal Park tourney on Jan 20-23. Hope to see you there.
what happened to the last post for awhile. it looks to me like you have no self control.(Badger take notice)
Post deleted at author's request.
Rounder,
With Crystal Park once again failing to honor a tournament guarantee, I am probably going to be staying away from there for awhile. If you advertise a guaranteed prizepool, you should honor it. Supporting cardrooms with a history of unethical behavior, is itself, unethical. That said, please call me when you get to town and we'll hook up somewhere and get that $500 NL freeze-out played.
David,
So out to the mailbox for royalty checks, hmmm David? Incredible. I was married to a high stakes poker player for 16 years. I'm certain he has many of your books in his library.
Err--who is this? Whoever you are Debbie, remember that I have an image to uphold on this forum, cold heartless, arrogant, unfeeling, strictly logical etc. Please do not undo what I have worked so hard for all these years to achieve.
"Hmmmmmm!"
How come woman always have to bring up sex when they post here?
Vince.
What is a "smooth call"? Thanks.
It just means call rather than raise. The adjective is usually used in situations where raising seems like a good alternative but is not chosen.
"Smooth call"
That's when Mason "calls" David after Gary has ruffled David's feathers (again). Mason's good at smoothing things over. Hence a " smooth call".
Vince.
s
xx
c
Mr. Sklansky;
I'm relatively new to casino poker - been at it for about 9 months. I bought your books (Theory of Poker; Holdem for Adv.) and devoured them, and found the concepts to be very useful. However, there is one section in your book which I found hard to digest. In support of game theory you describe randomizing your bluffs via a method of allowing the draw card to make the determiniation. While I can believe that in very high level games with good players, pulling off a bluff may become more difficult because they learn to 'read' you, it seems hard to imagine that using an external event such as the second hand on a timepiece or the next card drawn, can be practically applied. I mean, the mental activity required to calculate draw odds, select the particular 'yes' cards and then act on them, all the while appearing to be playing your hand seems to me to be unmanagable. Instead, at any particular game, would there not always be some information available to allow you to make an intelligent choice about bluffing even considering the history with the current players that may exist? e.g. whether yours/others recent bluffs were discovered etc?
Thank you for your repsonse and for your books!
Nick
Why is this post here? Anyway you are right only if you are sure you are better than your opponent in these psychological situations. But if you think you can outguess him and you are wrong, the result is horrible. If you use game theory you are never giving up too much.
"Why is this post here?"
are you serious? have you no empathy for the post placement challegned?
you seem to have figured it out with the typing, but i am sure you can remember your good old days.
scott
I posted my question here because I don't see anyplace else to post it. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) there is no such thing as a web-page standard so it wasn't obvious to me where to go to start a new thread. The choices at the top of this page are :
View Thread | Post Response | Return to Index | Read Prev Msg | Read Next Msg |
I don't see a 'Post New Topic' type option. So I plopped it right down where I was.
as usual people always hear something wrong. pay attention when other people speak. what the person was saying was a smew call. a smew is a duck. a merganser really to be correct. i dont know what their call is and maybe Paul Feeney can mimick it. but please keep the topics to poker and not to animal sounds.
Have U noticed that RZ hates PF. Wonder Y that B? Cause Z can't understand what PF is talkin bout. When PF talks about FW Z goes batty. BTW Z PF B at FW on Saturday. I know, BFD.
Vince.
Post deleted at author's request.
I thought that was super funny in fourth grade.
come to think of it, I still do
alex
oh, jon, whizkid, OC dude, or rounder if you're having trouble understanding the joke sound out the letters in the title "eye, see you pee!" get it?
knew you were bright
alex
My response to Dunc Mills' Jackpot post on the HE Forum mentions Molson beer. Good suds, esp. the Export Ale. Unfortunately, I no longer drink the 'real' stuff. Does any Canadian brewery make a non-alcoholic beer? I like(d) Molson and Moosehead, but hate Labatt's. Of course, I hate Heinous-ken, too, and they make the best NA; Buckler. St. Pauli Girl NA is also very good. And Guiness makes a "Stout" (giggle) NA, Kaliber, that's not bad, either.
I've fooled dozens of Yanks raised on Scudworster, Coreds, and Mildewer with these three. Fun trick to pull when serving Mexican food. Pour a Sharp's (shudder) from a VERY COLD BOTTLE into a glass, then squeeze in a couple lime wedges. Tell 'em it's Tecate. When they start with the "Dude, let's start doing tequila shots, I'm so wasted", show 'em the Sharp's empties. Works every time...
do you know english?
also, rolling rock is superior to molson's i just had a bundle tonight
good night.
alex
p.s. do you really giggle? that's sort of weird.
1. Yes.
2. Trolling Crock is mayonaissey skunk water.
3. So I see.
4. Same to you.
5. Only when my girlfriend tickles me.
Now, before I refute his accusation I must several of my own. John Feeney lives in San Diego. Now, I'm not sure about you guys, but I would rather live in a box in New York than a castle in San Diego. I was in San Diego last summer for a little poker (played at Sycuan, know it Johnny?), and it sucked.
Anyway, back to the relevant point. I may live in an alley, but I am not the gun-toting snowblower that John Feeney has made himself known to all of us as. Someone asks, "John Feeney, I have a question about multiple table images", and John replies "hold on a second while I powder my nose". That's the reason he spends so much time in the bathroom! The whole time I thought it was explosive diarrhea.
As for the gun-toting part, John Feeney most reminds me of the John Goodman character in Big Lebowski. The last time Phil Hellmuth tried to angle shoot him, John Feeney just shot him.
So, while I am posting from an alley, I at least am not posting from jail. Scott! Be prepared to swim into the bay to visit John at Alcatraz. And don't be suckered in when he says "hey scottie, let's talk about poker while you bring that speedboat around back of the island at 3:30 in the morning. I'll jump in and we can go to gardena. YOU ARE ASSISTING AN ESCAPING FELON. ITS A FELONY.
as for alleys. You should want to live in an alley. Cool people live in alleys. Spawn (a relatively new comic book character), Batman hung out there, Superman's girlfriend was from there, Kyle lives there, Krister's girlfriend is from there.
that is all
alex
First Mr. BEE, that powder around my nose is NOTHING but a little stage makeup for my "addict" image. Caro thinks loose/playful works best, but I can tell 'ya variations on junky really do the trick. All just image Alley boy (sniff).
The gun I use only as backup. What, you got no gunny-wunnys there in the -- where are you, the east somewhere? Well, here in the west we have guns, we use guns, we live with our guns and die with them smoking in our hands. Someone calls you out, "McCain!", err I mean "BEE! I'm drawin' on you", you better be able to back up that school boy talk cuz sheriff Micah Torrance ain't gonna be there to hold your hand. Watchya gonna do, cuz all of Northfork is watching.
That said, there are a couple of things we have here in S.D. that wouldn't fit in your box. One is Shamu. Another is the infamous Dan A. (Well, he might fit, but...), who last night made verbal short work of Missouri Dave by asking him, "What kind of idiot has the name of a state for a first name and a first name for a last name? That's almost as bad as Jimmy Jimmy." Dave just said, "You callin' me an idiot?" My gun, of course, was at the ready. I rest my case.
My honour has been attacked. My last name is not BEE, but "B". pronounced "b" Got it? Mr. FEEEEEEE?
you've sure done a lot of talking about how good it is to carry a weapon. Understood. we need guns to take out today's super animals like the electric eel or the flying squirrel. But you haven't addressed why the TTH you sent to Scott has a return address in "Cell Block 6, Alcatraz". Maybe its because you live there! That's the reason you're writing a book! To pass the time away, since you can't play any poker. That's the reason you're having scott visit you, so he can bust you out!
The nra ought to make a commerical of you. It could say "I'm John Feeney. When I'm not snorting cocaine I like stroking my pistol under the table of a high-stakes poker game. I love my pistol, and don't share it with anyone else". "You would go on to say that, multiple table images are important when you're seeing multiple images. I see snakes and spiders, and 36 people at my poker table. So for these hallucinations one must have backup prepared. Multiple table images is one. Bio-suits another. Those little hot dogs they have at weddings a third. Actually, those are damn good. We had them once at scott's house for poker, but only once.
alex
First of all, BeeBee, I may live in Alcatraz, but maybe I'm not an inmate, eh? Maybe it's not even a prison anymore, eh? (Maybe I only *sound* Canadian, eh?) Maybe I live there because I have to, because I'm a tour guide there. When Scott comes out here to visit his CalTech buddies I will give them a little tour. You should come along. When I close the cell door behind you so you can hear that distinctive metal to metal sound, don't worry. I have the key. Well, worry.
Whatizit with you and snacks, man? Just when I think I know were you're going (super animals, yeah, flying squirrels, okay...) you throw in Vienna sausages. Man, that's low. You'd bust your own mom wouldn't you?
otherwise i am sure he'd love to come out to california with me.
scott
it would fun hanging out with you though. I'm sure you guys will have a good time. I'm going to be in chicago that weekend, not doing what scott has ascribed me to be doing, but i'm sure you can lock me in a cell another time.
as to my interests in snacks. Can you really be a decent american and not be interested in snacks? I think that was one of McCarthy's crack questions that tripped up all the witnesses
"are you a communist"
"no"
"have you ever been a communist"
"no"
"what is your favorite snack"
"ummmmm, ermmmmmm, hmmmmmmm"
"what's the matter, Don't like snacks? Russkie? Get out of my country"
"oh, i've been discovered!"
anyhow, what was I talking about. Oh yeah, the trip to california. Now John, scott is very into experimentations with drugs, and I want you to promise that you won't introduce him to cocaine. Hey, are you from Zeta Psi at UPenn? I hear they give out free coke at their parties. You should check it out, but I bet you'd see Sklansky there and you would never be able to accuse him of logic ever again.
alex
hey,
Alex, it's okay if Sarah's making you go to Chicago. We all understand if you're not man enough to say "Listen woman, I'm playing me some poker and that's that!". As for Alex's obsession with snacks, that goes back to his childhood. His father was killed by a Ho-Ho in a scene to grisly to describe. On that day he vowed to wreak horrible vengence on any snack that passed his way. It's apparent when he comes over, the first question out of his mouth is "Say...do you have any....Snacks?!?!?!" If you say no, he becomes full of fury in which he screams and smacks himself in the head until you get him a can of pringles. Unfortunately this translates into poker, for once he's out of "chips" he loses it. Remember those so-called earthquakes in turkey? That was simply a cover up for Alex. Those "Aliens" in Roswell? Alex. The Kennedy assasination? Alex. I'm just warning you John, cause you seem like a good guy. Alex is one Bad Mammajamma.
Mark
Now for the shock of his fiancee's parents' lives...
and she exists. she's real nice. i hope he gets along well with her parents. i don't think they even know about the wedding yet. someone should warn them that they better have ample snacks on hand. alex can get violent if he is snackless. that wouldn't be a good first impression.
scott
I'll be in Vegas next week. I'm looking for a hold-'em game that is:
3-6 or 1-4-4.
Full of loose tourists.
In pleasant surroundings (I'm staying on the strip)
and--if possible--SMOKE FREE!
Are their such? Thanks.
3-6 at the Mirage, the games have been good the two weekends I played there. 4-8 at Bellagio, which I haven't played in. 1-4-8-8 at Monte Carlo, Luxor, Mandalay Bay. The Monte Carlo game was ok the one Friday night I played there for a couple hours, but I'm in no hurry to play there again. The Luxor and Mandalay Bay games are good from what I hear but haven't played either of those places.
I think you're outta luck with the smoke free thing though.
I post the following information on poker.com (one of the 2+2 advertisers) to show the potential value that online gaming sites have. To me it was an eye opener. I have no position in this companies stock. Comments?
Poker.com, Inc.
Investment Info
Reasons to Invest
Marketing Strategy
Poker.com., is one of the most powerful domain names in the online gaming industry because it is recognizable worldwide in every possible language. The Company has developed a strategic marketing plan designed to catapult the Poker.com. site into the leading gaming portal on the web, attracting literally hundreds of thousands of people each month.
Marketing
Poker.com, Inc., with its exclusive rights to market the unique www.poker.com domain, will chiefly derive revenue from marketing the poker.com multi-player poker card-room and casino, licensing fees and ongoing royalties from gaming software sub-licensees. Further marketing initiatives that will be implemented include: an opt-in newsletter program, banner advertising and retail e-commerce sales.
Poker.com, Inc. has purchased a license from ASF Software Inc. ("ASF") which entitles them to sub-license ASF's multi-player poker and other software for Internet gaming. With its sub-licensing rights , Poker.com has now sold its first sub-license to Antico Holding SA.( Costa Rica ). Antico have purchased from the Company the exclusive rights to use the url www.poker.com for operating an on-line gaming site and the sub-licensing rights to use the ASF Software to operate a multi-player poker card-room and casino
As one of the first components of a comprehensive marketing plan, the Company has contracted with Excite@Home (Nasdaq: ATHM) to position the poker site on the www.excite.com search engine with links using ten of the most popular poker and gambling key words. The company has also entered into an agreement with Galore.com, an Internet portal and search engine who have agreed to direct 900,000 unique visitors to the www.poker.com website each month.
The Company proposes to introduce a Million Dollar Online Poker Tournament - the first-ever Internet World Poker Championship Tournament with a prize of $1 million. The game will be Texas Hold'em without a limit. It will take place over a period of several days, with the final being held in Las Vegas.
Business Strategy
The Company has segmented its development into 3 phases which will commence over a 3 month period.
In Phase 1 which will occur in the early part of October, 1999, the Company will initially derive revenue from marketing the poker.com domain and directing traffic to the www.poker.com multi-player poker site in Costa Rica. The poker room will comprise multiple tables with up to 10 players playing at each table. The Company will earn 20% of each deposit made by a player that the Company directs to the www.poker.com card-room and casino
During this phase the Company will also be launching its opt-in newsletter. The term opt-in means that the respondent has actively subscribed to the newsletter. Poker.com, Inc. will also offer free web-based e-mail accounts similar to the Hotmail.com.
In phase 2, the Company will enter into contract with a number of other gaming software developers to act as a sub-licensor and re-sell their software systems. The Company expects to earn up to $10,000 for each sub-license they sell and to earn a royalty fee of up to 10% from each sub-licensees' gross revenue.
Phase 3 in involved with the development of the poker.com portal as the site of choice by Internet gaming enthusiasts and the marketing of banner ads
Projected Revenue Stream
Initial Multi-player Poker site
The Company will initially derive revenue from its licensing and marketing of www.poker.com . The Company's first licensee, Antico Holdings SA.,will commence operating a multi-player poker card-room and casino in Costa Rica on or about October, 12th 1999. The poker room at www.poker.com will comprise multiple tables with up to 10 players playing at each table. The company will be paid 20% of each deposit made by a player signing up to play on the site. Projected revenue from this sub-license is expected to reach $1.2 million in year 1
Software Licensing Opportunities
Significant revenues will be generated from selling gaming software licenses acquired from several other gaming software developers. The company expects to earn up to $10,000 for each sub-license they sell and earn a royalty fee of up to 10% from each sub-licensees' gross revenue. The company is confident of selling 21 sub-licenses (excluding the initial poker.com license) during the first 12 months of marketing which would generate licensing fees of $210,000 and royalty revenue of approximately $1,540,00 in year one. In year two and three the company expects to sell an additional 24 sub-licenses in each year and expects to earn licensing fees of $240,000. p.a. and royalty payments of $8.16 million and $20.88 million respectively.
Discussions are underway with two casino software developers to acquire the rights to sub-license their technologies to www.poker.com and other third party casino operators. In the future, it is anticipated that Poker.com, Inc. may directly develop and/or acquire gaming software technology.
Advertising
The Company will utilize its exclusive marketing rights to sell advertising banners through its unique www.poker.com domain. The company expects to generate $50,000 per month from its banner advertising program.
Opt-in Newsletter Program
Poker.com, Inc. will be launching its free opt-in newsletter during October 1999. The term opt-in suggests that the respondent has actively subscribed to the newsletter. The newsletter will be written by Andy Glazer a pre-eminent world class Poker Player. Poker.com will also offer free web-based e-mail accounts similar to the Hotmail.com. The Company is projecting earnings in excess of $1 million from the opt-in program during its 1st year of operation.
Corporate Data
NASDAQ OTC Bulletin Board Exchange
Symbol: PKER
Head office:
1502-1166 Alberni Street
Vancouver, BC V6
1-888-29POKER
1-888-297-6537
e-mail: info@poker.com
Share Structure:
5,200,000 common shares issued and outstanding
3,800,000 free trading shares
1,400,000 restricted shares
500,000 warrants outstanding @ $1.00
Market Capitalization
$ 5.2 million (Oct.,6,1999)
|
Directors Charlo Barbosa, COO & President Michael Jackson, CEO Legal Counsel Monahan & Biagi Seattle, WA Auditors Grant Thornton Vancouver, BC |
Transfer Agents Interwest Transfer Company Inc. Salt Lake City, Utah Bankers Bank of Montreal HSBC Bank Canada Investor Relations Graham Taylor 1-888-29POKER |
I forgot to mention that I collected this information from their site.
Post deleted at author's request.
I would like to register at Deja.com using uppercase letters at the beginning of my first and last name. But their registration page says you can only use lowercase letters, and keeps kicking back my submission telling me "NO DICE A-Hole!", or something like that.
There are soooooo many people who post there that use uppercase letters. How Do They Do IT!!!
Thank You For Any Help, Randy
the problem with your computer is that you are not depressing the shift key in order to produce capital letters. The way I see it you have two options, wait actually three.
1) Throw your computer out the window for naming the capital letter key, "shift"
2) use the shift key
3) I haven't actually used it myself, but there are rumors that the caps lock key will actually lock the computer into capital letter mode. I can't testify to its use, but I've heard its tremendously usefull.
hope this helps
alex
ps. it'd be real cool if you threw it out the window. I've wanted to do it a million times but the best I ever did was yell at it.
I don't see how.
Well, if he could be..... I don't know....You? And I have a sneaking suspicion your appearence is equestrian in nature. Oh I'm sorry, I'll translate. You look like a horse(Credit=Alex and scott). Who do you think you are anyway? Sitting there at my computer thinking "Oh, since I look like a horse I'm just going to sit here and bad mouth people I don't understand". Did you like Fight Club? That was a great movie but most people didn't like it because it was over their heads. So now they'll probably just make some more movies with flashing lights, loud noises, an inane dialog for horse-people like you. I just hope you don't break your leg, for some cowboy could just come by and you'd be done for.
Mark
And yes this message was written in someone else's style, I don't want to hear any complaints from pirates or hobos.
don't worry about complaints. we know you are a friend to pirates and hobos. besides, we will kidnap whatever you rightfully steal.
scott
i am always pleased to encounter brilliant minds. i know alex very well and i had not previously thought him, as you say, stupid. so, upon reading your poignant portryal of my friend's failures, i was convinced that i had found a man of genius. understandably, i wanted to do my best to learn from you.
as an aside, i loved the suspense in your post. the way the title is a seemingly rhetorical question, which is then answered in the post!! i am astounded. it was sublime. and the reduntant "than he is" as a symbol of alex's inabilty to express himself. wow.
anyway, attempting to further my eductaion, i decided to look for other posts by you, paul g. since most people on the forum play hold em, i checked there first. and i found -- nothing. not one post. i thought that it was strange, but i was not daunted. thinking that you perhaps play stud, i then searched for posts on the stud forum. again nothing. i was surprised.
i then supposed that you were a master of tournaments. this disappointed me, because i have no hope of appreciating true genius in that field. all the same, i decided to garner what i could from your posts. i searched. and found no posts. i was again shocked.
but then i realized that true genius would not concern itself with mere technichalities. you obciously would discuss general theory. so i searched there. still not one post. i was dumbfounded. but i am not defeated easily. i searched through the recent archives. nothing. i started going back a few months. but it seemed to be a fruitless endevour.
at this point, i was out of options. i could not learn from you. so i had some extra time to think, time that would have been spent studying your works. i thought about what kind of man would choose to make his first foray into the forum a mean spirited rebuttal of a mere joke.
then i reread your one post and realized that the redundacy was accidental. and that you probably did not understand the rhetorical nature of your question, making your post nothing beyond drivel. to be laughed at, rather than with.
with this new perspective, i realized that it is, in fact, you who is most likely a fool, rather than my alex.
as for the several negative responses to alex, i quote jonathan swift: "when a true genius appears in this world, you may know him by this sign, that all the dunces are in confederacy against him."
(that should seem a compliment to all the right people. and those of you who know who else quoted this line should have a hearty laugh at my friend ignatious.)
scott
scott,
I'm sorry, but I must agree with Paul. The cheese definitely slipped off Alex's cracker along time ago.
oh, i know he is crazy. i am not claiming that alex is a useful contributor to the forum. and i advise anyone looking for poker insight to avoid his posts. his occasional serious post is ok, but i don't think anyone would give up too much if they missed them.
but alex is funny. and here, on the internet, he is willing to make a fool of himself to make people laugh. he is too shy to do this in real life. i think his humourous posts are good for him and the forum.
but my real problem with paul's post is that this was his maiden voyage. these forums have a lot of serious poker discussions, some jokes, some poker politics, and some miscellaneous posts (like what poker books to buy and stories of winning jackpots). personally, i find all of them interesting at times. the least valuable for me is the politics and the serious theory is clearly the most valuable.
i cannot understand the person who would be snapped out of lurkdom by a joke or political tirade. my first posts were all serious and i did not attempt any humor for over two weeeks. i did not make a single post devoid of serious poker for a couple months. i thought that i should be on familiar terms before i wasted people's time with trifles. and pointing out trifles is quite a trifle.
now, i do not recognize your name and if you have not posted on serious topics, i think you should. that is much more important than my friends mental health. your post seems less antagonistic than paul's, which is good. but when lurkers chastise someone or something, never to be heard from again, i have trouble giving their opinions much weight.
it just amazes me how many first (and often only) posts come from threads on david selling out or mason censoring or on other non poker issues. they are not important and should not be the thing that prompts you to post.
scott
scott,
Your thorough search of the forum hardly serves as conformation that this was Paul's debut post. Some people at Deja.com(my primary stomping ground),where you can check a person's posting history, post in 3 or 8 month intervals--like that Daniel Neu'something, you know,that tournament champion guy. And even if it was his first post here, so what? I've seen this Alex buddy of yours get down right cruel with unsuspecting 2+2 participants. And just because he's a kid is no excuse!
Forgive me now, I've got some heavy-duty lurking to do.
See ya, Melissa
PS:Yes, this was definitely my first post here?
PSS: No, I shan't pop my unbelievably gorgeous head up for some time to come, even though I know this saddens you greatly.
PSSS: And no, I do not have delusions of a so called 'Lady Gambler', whom I highly suspect is a guy. Bye-bye
i'd be crazy? then i'm not stupid? i thank you.
you make a few points.
one, that alex is sometimes mean, is true. but his intent is to make people laugh. he is the first to admit that he sometimes fails. and most of his crueler posts are retaliations. he has made some bad posts, but he never meant to hurt anyone. most of his posts are funny and not mean. some are funny and mean. the rare not funny, mean post is bad, but to be honest i don't see how someone's feelings can be hurt over the internet. especially by someone whom you don't respect. and i don't think anyone respects alex's opinion.
and the post that prompted paul's comment as both funny and not mean.
another of your points is that paul could have been long time poster who just posts infrequently. this is possible. but my argument would still hold in this case, although to a lesser extent. he stops by twice a year and this is his contribution? posts like these, mean or not, funny or not, are primarily unimportant. if i only had the time or inclination to post infrequently, it would be on serious topics and when noone else was arguing for what i believe to be the truth.
i guess the reason that it matters whether he is a forum regular has to do with respect for the forum. the people who only post to make fun of badger. the people who only post about politics. these people have no respect for the forum. i could be wrong about this, but that is what i felt when i began posting. i thought i had to earn the privelege of wasting people's time.
on lady gambler. you're not the only one who thinks she's a guy. i really don't have any idea. whatever.
you make another interesting point. you are gorgeous. yes, i am saddened by your desire to return to lurkland. but, perhaps i can come visit. you could email me and we could, uh, er, continue this discussion. perhaps over drinks....
adieu
scott
er,uh--fat chance.
-Melissa
you couldn't have just said 'no'? or even made up some white lie to spare my feelings? oh, woman, you work your words to wound.
scott
Melissa,
There's something I think you aughta know, scott's only 16 years old! You heard me right, 16! So unless sitting outside some liquor store, while scott tries pimping you two a six-pack of Near-Beer sounds like an evening to remember, you'll be better off with a real man, like Martin D who posts here regularly.
I'll tell you what, if give me a call, I'll take down your number and pass it along to Martin. He sure is a great guy, and you won't be sorry--that's a promise!
1-310-947-8022 call anytime, day or night.
i am 18. and i have never even seen a near-beer. in fact, i can't imagine anyone drinking near beer. and i'll drink you or your 'friend' martin d under any table you can find. i'll even take you 'both' at once. and why would i sit outside a liquor store? i have a dorm room, you know.
but you can have melissa. she's wounded me too deeply for me to ever recover. it's all i can do not to kill myself.
scott
scott said: "i'll drink you and your friend under any table you can find, i'll even take you 'both' at once!"
It's alarming to hear of somebody so young having such an incredible tolerance for alcohol. Not a good sign. Granted, none of my business, but just the same.
Fred
girls reject me right and left. i am not cool enough to have any friends. everywhere i go people make fun of me. what am i to do? i drink.
i sometimes regret my tolerance, though. the pitchers add up, you know.
by the way, how did the quotes around 'friend' disappear in your snippet of my post?
hey frank, my 'friend' has a drinking problem. get it?
but maybe if people like melissa were nicer to my 'friend', he wouldn't have to drink.
scott
scott
I don't know how to save, cut, then paste messages, so I memorize the gist, and retype the message the best I can.
Fred K
PS: And don't get yourself all worked up over Melissa. Sure, she's great in bed, has a perfect ass, big tits and a beautiful face. But you and I both know, all that matters is what's in a her heart, and shes shown you what's in hers---'Ice'. That's why I dumped her. And even though I break down every once in a while, giving in to her unrelenting advances, I still hold that unshakable belief close to my vest(in that all that matters is what's in her heart, and not that she gives unbelievably great-, well--you know what I mean).
Take Care,
"And don't get yourself all worked up over Melissa. Sure, she's great in bed, has a perfect ass, big tits and a beautiful face"
Now I am not going to make some kind of Critical remark towards anyone \. I was wrong to do that to AlexB. I apologized. I just wonder about things like the above. I would like to see more female participation in this forum. The reason is beacuse as much as I believe in equal opportunity I realize that females have a different perspective when playing poker and are viewed differently by men. Men do not treat woman as opponents when playing poker. For these and other poker related reasons I would like to hear from woman poker players. I believe that if I were a woman and read a comment like the above I would not bother with this forum. That's just my opinion.
Vince.
all i've said is that i am a drunken loser. how does that scare off potential female posters?
and, in fred's defense, melissa started it with her gorgeous comment. and he is on the other topics forum.
scott
"And don't get yourself all worked up over Melissa. Sure, she's great in bed, has a perfect ass, big tits and a beautiful face"
Scott,
I reposted the above for you. If you still think it's not offensive disregard my previous post.
Vince.
well, nothing offends me. but i definitely understand if, and in fact expect, women to find this offensive.
my real point was that i had not said anything offensive. that quote is, as i am sure you know, not from my post.
scott
Vince,
The post you refer to really doesn't bother me, since it was done with humor, obviously joking around. I've got brothers, so I'm used to guy humor. But you do make a few valid points in regards to women, and why they probably don't flock to 2+2. This is definitely a guys hangout, with all the constant pissing contests. I'm not sure how you could make this place more female-friendly. One thing is for sure, it's going to take more than a one man campaign, but it's sweet of you to express a concern, just the same.
Sincerely, Melissa
"it's going to take more than a one man campaign, "
Melissa,
Do not underestimate the power of this one "man".
Vince.
Melissa
In all due respect to scott, that was the funniest damn reply I've read all week! My wife told me to "SHUT UP", I was laughing so LOUD!!
i am due no respect. and i am always glad for people laughing. enjoy.
scott
x
why do women posters always feel the need to emphasize their looks. Perhaps because they built their bankroll prostituting their body and they are used to people only talking to them during the price negociation.
melissa, get your "gorgeous" behind back to lurkland. If I ever see you in my alley I'll kick your butt for the debauchery you live in.
alex
Alex,
Somewhere along your lifes path someone misinformed you and sadly you believed them. Unless you change your ways here on 2+2, I, for one, will never open an AlexB post again. Like you care, right?
Vince
xx
"PSSS: And no, I do not have delusions of a so called 'Lady Gambler', whom I highly suspect is a guy. Bye-bye"
O.K. Melissa. I'll make the bet! I'll lay 4-1 that LG is a woman and a REAL WOMAN at that.
She talks, just like a woman. She laughs, just like a woman. But I'll bet she smiles just like a little girl. And oh, she takes care of herself and she never gives up she just changes her mind. Just remember she'll throw daggers at you but she's always a woman to me!
Do we have a bet!
Vince.
Vince, dear Vince,
Thanks for your support and now I know I can always depend on you. But with regards to this Melissa thing, let me take care of it right now as it takes a cat to fight a cat and be assured she's no match for me at all.
Melissa, what do you want from me? What have I done to upset your sanity? Are you that ugly that you can't help being jealous of me? You are so insecure I feel sorry for you. Does your boyfriend has this nightly fantasy of me that you can't help but vent your jealousy in the forum for everyone to see? Tough luck, Melissa, I feel sorry for you too. But such is life and maybe in another life it will be better for you. And don't worry, I have no care at all for your boyfriend but if you fight me one more time, sorry for you 'cause I can have him anytime I want. So keep quiet now and keep your cool, okay?
Again my thanks to you, dear sweet Vince. You have always been my hero and you have helped me so much in my poker strategy, I shall never forget it. Someday, I will meet you and you will not be disappointed with me at all.
I'm sorry I lost my cool when this Melissa attacked me from Lurkland. (In real life, I'm not as catty as how I responded to Melissa's attack. I am a lady in words and thoughts and I want you to know that. I am very refined in public but privately can be as bold and as daring as any woman can be.) And if Melissa or anybody accepts you on your bet that Lady Gambler is a woman, I'm in with you and the higher the stakes the better. We'll take them all and we will win for sure.
Bye now, I'll see you in a little while.
LG,
I was going to offer 1000 to 1. But I knew that Badger or Big John would figure out a way to get the best of me with odds like that.
BTW - If you keep talking as above I'm going on a diet and buying some rogaine and might get a face lift (if I could afford it). So be careful!
Vince
Oh Yeah I would cut Melissa some slack. There are only a few woman with enough guts to post here, she is apparently one of them. So you two do have something in common. Friendships have begun on thinner strings.
Vince, dear Vince,
I realize that now but no not then when I was in a fit of passion. I tried to retrieve my post before it was sent out but too late. Now, I guess I have to offer my apology to her which I will do as soon as I'm done talking to you. I just can't understand why these people seem to think that I'm a guy because I am a woman (with a knockout figure to boot), I love being a woman, I think like a woman and I do whatever a woman does and more besides.
As for the bet, the higher the stakes the better, I'm in with you all the way. Big John and Badger will go with you too, no matter how high the bet will be. And we will win and win bigtime for sure.
Stay always the way you are, sir knight, I like you as you are, don't ever change in any way. Sometimes next year I promise you that we will meet.
Melissa,
I'm sorry to disappoint you but I am a woman in every way. Let's start with my anatomy. My bones are small, my skin is very creamy and very soft. My measurements you already know but if you don't, it's 36 1/4", 24 3/8", 34 1/4". My height is adjustable to any man. My weight is feather light. My voice is very soft and whispery and only say what a man wishes to hear. My mood though can change like day and night. I laugh, I cry, I smile, I quarrel too and woe to anybody who fights with me because as Vince has said, I can have daggers in my words, but most of all, I love. I also like having friends.
How about you? Are you a woman too? If so, maybe we can be friends as there are not too many female posters in this forum. As Vince has said, we could have something in common so I will ignore what you thought of me originally and I too will ignore my catty remarks of you. My way of saying I'm sorry!
Bravo! Bravo! Bravo!
Come on Melissa let's talk poker now!
Brenda, DianeB, hey we almost have enough for a ladies tournament. Let's go! Maybe Mason can get Lynne Loomis and Linda Johnson to join in. And what's wrong with this Cissy Bottoms doesn't she have a computer?
Vince.
BTW - Has anyone noticed that Brenda hasn't posted since Z refused to be her friend. What a guy!
Lady Gambler,
Are you Mae West come back to life? I admire you and your style and I hope you're real. I also asked John Feeney to analyze you for my own peace of mind.
Admirer,
Is that a "computer" in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?
Milady,
Your tongue is harsh but I am not daunted at all. Mine is not that big as you envision but I can offer you more if you would just allow me to meet you.
what kind of cracker?
A village idiot's cracker.
to raise an idiot.
scott
hence the existence of, AlexB
dumbest name on this forum. you should be ashamed of yourself.
in america we use capital letters are the beginnings of words, if at all. You, quite clearly are not from america. So, where could you be from. Where are people dumb......hmmmmmmmmm.....not canada surely, I'm under enough attack already to bring in the mounties.....so I have to be satisfied with solely offending berya and say that you are most assuredly a red. I have reached this conclusion based on the pure idiocy of your last name. kcuf? hmmmm? now, in most languages that "k" and "c" represent approximately equivalent sounds. I know they do in english. But, in Russsssia, they need it to say their two favorite words "COMMMUNIST" and "COMRADE", not to mention "CASTRATION" (i've heard about that also, kcuf, sorry....but at least you wont' be having sex with donkeys), "CHERNOBYL", and "I'm, kcuf, the dumbest damn comrade in Russia who gets assigned to the duty of causing mischief in the american internet." go work in the fields and help mother russia.
alex
Dear God you should be dragged out and shot in the head for that comment. That was the most moronic thing I have ever chanced to encounter on this forum. A Village Idiot's Cracker? Simply because the village idiot has a certain cracker that doesn't hurt the cracker in the slightest. Me, I'm a fan of Ritz. They're good with brie. However, if the village idiot (which would be you more likely then Alex) offered me some Ritz I wouldn't turn it down simply since it was the village idiot's crackers. Now if you said if he was a wheat thin, I would have seen your point. They're the product of Lucifer himself. Just you watch, when the Apocalypse comes it will be the Wheat thin eaters who bring about the destruction of society. Speaking of Idiots, why do you assume it's so bad to be an idiot? If you were literate (big IF there) you would know of Dostoevsky's The Idiot. I would love to be like the idiot in that case, for he is simply an intelligent idealist who is misunderstood by the ignorant masses. He strives for what is pure and true but soon realizes that is not to be. I guess that would make you Lebedyov(I'm sorry, that's misspelled), the greedy idiot who was always running around going "Look at me, I'm a moron, please don't punch me in the face!". But I think the lesson you should take away from this entire message is that crackers on the whole are good, and simply because you can't appreciate something doesn't make it idiotic.
coming out of the barn at 4:00 am. How's that sex with the donkeys going. I really don't understand you Paul G., and have begun to suspect that you really aren't a Paul, or a "G". So let me ask you several questions. When did you first start having intercourse with farm animals? Are you a communist? Do you believe in math? How about pot odds? Do you use pot odds? Do you know what pot odds are? Do you win pots? Do you smoke pot? Now, I know I may be dumb, but I'm the one asking the questions here. Do you give the donkeys pot before you sleep with them? Are they the people who you beat for your impressive number of big bets each hour. Sorry to tell you, but donkeys aren't people! They don't have sex like people, and don't play poker like people. Maybe that's the reason one doesn't need math to beat them.
alex
...........................> AlexB
-------------------------> Paul G.
That's plagiarism, plain and simple--simple minded that is........
check out who used both the dotted lines and the word spotted first in the subject line.
Looks like someone is having some fuzzy thinking. Don't sweat it, just go screw that donkey and everything will be right as rain.
alex
I think my friends have pretty well defended me, but I would like to add one thing.
i may be stupid, but at least I don't have repeated attempted sex with donkeys. Oh yes, I heard about your little escapade in the barnyard last week. It was spread all over the forum like wildfire, and frankly I'm disgusted. Can't you afford a prostitute? Aren't you a pro poker player? Comon, I know you must be ugly, but surely you could do better than a pack animal.
alex "the dumb but non equiphile" B.
I would guess that they use ASCII characters to enter their names. Go to your Accessories >> System Tools >> Character Map and pick out a common font such as Arial. For each uppercase character that you need, try to copy and paste instead of using the shift key.
Earl,
I tried what you recommended, and pasted it in, but it still refused the submission of a username with uppercase letters.
Thanks for trying, Randy
Post deleted at author's request.
Badger,
A posting name(username)with two uppercase letters is what I'm trying to get their system to accept, but it just keeps kicking it back with the message,"username cannot contain uppercase letters".
Appreciate any help, Randy
Post deleted at author's request.
uppercase,capitals, shift key, maybe paul feeney can fill me in at least i someday hope to understand his jibberish.
Just witnessed one of the grossest betting errors on the Jeaordy quiz show.
Final Jeapordy: Leader at T5400, 2nd T2700, 3rd T2200
Notice that 2nd is exactly half of first. Also the rules are that if there is a tie both players keep the money and return for the next show.
3rd place correctly bet 2199 hoping for a miracle
2nd bet 2600 Ouch! what was he thinking?
leader bet 100 Ouch! Ouch!
Now it turns out they all got the question wrong and the leader wins. Her bet gave her a chance to win 100 while risking 5400. By correctly betting zero she would keep the money and also gain the advantage of keeping a live opponent on her next appearence.
BTW I missed the part where she tells her profession is a poker book author.
D.
what if he thought that T2700 would bet T2600 and was willing to lose T100 to ensure an easy opp next time? huh? that wouldn't be do dumb, would it?
scott
That would make some sense if there was some way he could predict such a gross error by #2. #2 had to bet all hoping that #1 was rational ( a long shot ).
D.
that's the whole point. maybe she knew her opponents. actually, i was kidding. but it is conceivable.
scott
Price Is Right play is usually even worse. I've seen people bid $1 less than the previous bidder. Virtually no one on the show seems to realize that if you're last to act, the only bids you should ever make are $1 or $1 more than another bid.
but the people on jeoperdy are alledgedly intelligent. the price is right rewards being average. like the family fued. it's ok if they are dumb.
scott
Feudin. You win if you keep your anger honed and ready against your opponents. They bet 500? You shoot em' They bet 800? You shoot em'
John Feeney would love it. I can see it now. John Feeney, Paul Feeney, and two homeless people used to complete the family.
Host : "So, what are the five most popular TV shows."
Paul : "TTZJ, the wizards play a dirty trick"
Host : "What the hell are you talking about"
John : "What did you say about my brother? BLAM, BLAM, BLAM"
Paul :"feuding zeeman, ADLK"
alex
FWIW, I always (well, usually) understand you bro. The Zeeman is just jealous of the Feeney dynasty.
Bro,
Zeeman is still hiding A's up his sleeve's for the Reincarnation of "Montana Red(ZEE)Dog". He thinks "King Crimson" is the King of Diamonds. He'll have to leave the USA to avoid the bookend treatment we'll give him.
Stay West BRO & Happy Holidays
The Other One
.
Was there ever a time when Caro posted here with any regularity?
Post deleted at author's request.
I have used my powers of observation and determined that Rounder, rather than taking the sabbatical as he threatened below, is really posting under the new handle of PK.
Not that anyone cares.
I's in for the $500 freezeout.
first of all, the character in question is pf. second of all, i don't think it is rounder.
his 'last post' was at 11:26 am on dec 17. since then he has posted once here on the exchange, three times on the holdem board, twice on the theory board (these are less than 15 minutes after his "last post". i guess 15 min is a while.), and twice more on tournaments.
i don't think he would take an assumed name for just a couple posts.
scott
Could someone tell me up to what rate a rake is reasonable? At what level does it affect the winnings too much to consider playing?
I can answer the first question if you tell me how well you play. The answer to the second question is dependant upon the first.
If you are a good player, say one of the two or three best in the games that you play, add up the cumulative dollar value of all the mistaken plays you observe being made by the lesser players. Subtract from that amount the total amount dropped in rake or collections and tokes. Take that figure and divide it by the number of players that are good. Subtract from that number the cumulative dollar figure for all your mistakes. If you are left with a positive number, you are O.K. If, however, the number comes out negative, reduce the number of players besides you who are good until you come up with a positive number. This is the best I can do. I play NL where the rake is $3.00 per hand, 15-30 lowball for $3.00 per hand and 4-8 Hold-em and Mexican Stud where it is the same. I sometimes play NL Holdem with a $5 or $6 collection every half hour, and will pay $3 or $4 per hand for a good 6-12 Hold-em when I can find one that matches up with my strengths.
about 75 an hour for the table is reasonable in a public room where they provide little more than drinks, cards and a dealer(most rooms). higher where they give some kind of credit out to players and provide food and other services. if the games are really good, a very good player could win with a rake as high as a big bet per hour per player. in some small limit games where the play is terrible some win with much higher rakes. but only those that play well for the game.
Thanks a lot for your response.
I dont know if you recall having answered one of my post concerning the Aviation Club de France in Paris, but I checked their rakes and they appear huge: for the 1000 francs buy in, the rake is 100f per hour. Thats 10% of the buy in!!!! For the 200f buy in, the rake is 10f on the flop and 25f if the pot is over 500f. Arent these rakes completly out of proportion? Are these games accessible to a begginer like me?
those games can easily be beat by a good player. i usually dont defend high rakes but they have a good excuse. the best location in the world is one and the other is the french govt. takes something like 70% of the rake for taxes. what is high is the rooms in the area. i paid $250 a night for a room a i wouldnt even consider setting foot in in the states. a super 8 would be a deluxe suite.
Frenchy,
I've responded to you before but I forgot where (this seems to me to be the downside of all these forums - who came up with that idea?).
Anyway, it is not only how much is taken but how it is taken. If you are trying to play well in a loose low limit game you will not win your fair share of pots since you should be one of the tightest players in the game (this does not mean weak/tight!). Other things being equal, you would prefer the drop be taken from the winner of the pot (e.g., $1 on $20, another dollar on $40 and a cap of $3 on sixty). This is typical in Las Vegas and very reasonalble. The worse system for low limit is in Los Angeles where the collection is taken dead on the button (or from the "antes" in stud). It is dropped even on the smallest of pots.
That being said, other things are not equal.. The horrible collection in Los Angeles drives away the tighter, collection concious players leaving the games artificially loose. So they still may be easier to beat then a Las Vegas game which usually is filled up with local retirees at the low limits, most of whom are rocks.
I'll comment more later if you have any questions.
Regards,
Rick
Rick, Thanks for your answer, which was very clear (im starting to learn quite a bit thanks to this forum). One thing I did not understand was the notion of "weak tight player". I've seen this expression used before but i still dont get it, how can a player play tight and still be weak?
Frenchy,
I only have a few monents since the forum seems to be exploding with good threads and I need to get ready for work.
Actually weak/tight is more of a flaw as you move up in limits. A weak/tight player is not tricky, does not bluff or semi-bluff enough, can usually be put on a narrow range of hands and so on. These flaws hurt you much more in the bigger games then the little games.
For a broader and better definition of weak/tight, search through the message index or archives using Edit - Find. This concept is also covered in most of the two plus two books. Or you can ask me again and I may have time tonight.
Regards,
Rick
I regularly play structured games, and was thinking of trying a tournament. However, I don't know much about the subject, and was hoping someone would point me to a 'basics of tournaments' site. I'm not so much talking about playing strategy, more rules and regulations, explanation of concepts, like satalite and re-buy. As you can see, I'm really starting from the beginning.
thanks.
vince doesn't like me anymore, and I cannot change, and I don't like saying I'm sorry. So, I'll stop bothering people here. I hope the happy people are at least a little balanced by the sad ones. sorry
alex
a lot of your posts aren't mean. just post those. if some one says you're dumb, either ignore it or try to reconcile. you can still banter with john feeney or write about bio -uits or whatever. just don't be cruel. and noone will object to your meaningless posts.
besides, a lot of regular posters are occasionally mean to people. and most occasional posters are often mean. don't feel bad if people don't like you.
a lot of people don't like me. get over it.
i like your posts. well, most of them. all of the threads you started. just don't get involved with one on one insult fights.
scott
I feel bad. Like I did not do enough to defend you from the vast unwashed masses. Pretty crappy treatment from someone trying to lure- uh-- invite you into his game.
You can always insult me by email
best wishes
Todd
you may have to ask yourself -- who's luring whom?
remember, you're dealing with a superstar.
scott
I have accounted for that fact, which is why i will only bring a small amount of money to play. In case you guys all have hand signals and signs and the whole goal is to take all of my money so my daughter has to go to Montgomery County Community College, instead of one of your alma otters. (or mine)
Todd
we don't need signals. and mk might not be so bad. i heard something about an exchange program with oxford. go figure.
scott
AleB,
How about sending me your e-mail address. My purpose was not to get you to stop posting and now I think that I was the one out of line. Way out of line. I should be the last one to criticize anyone. I have no excuse. A sincere apology is all I have to offer. I offer it openly here because I made my remark here. Fair is fair! Don't stop posting. I'll let Mason do the deleting or rules enforcement in the future. Besides who else thinks I'm awesome (rightfully so I might add).
Vince.
.
all superstars are awesome.
scott
...that leads to a lot of silly disputes. In this medium, with all communication in writing, a lot of misunderstandings occur. There's no tone of voice, no facial expression, no gesture. People constantly miss the humor or the intended spirit in jokes, take minor comments much more seriously than they were intended, and generally misunderstand one another. That, as well as the protection of distance and anonymity is why "flame wars" are a staple of the net (though serious ones are rare here, while they are the bread and butter of RGP), while anything of similar intensity would be almost shocking to see in the "real" world.
I say take it as a lesson in internet psychology, adjust accordingly (off topic posts mostly on this forum, reread posts to specific people for items that could be miscontrued as serious insults...), and keep posting. As Maniac Mark hinted near the end of one post, some may not appreciate your humor, but that's their problem. Don't take their comments too seriously.
p.s. I thought your post to "Melissa" was all in fun. I guess Vince didn't. It's the dumb internet.
John,
Your post certainly is closer to what I had in mind than what I posted. I second your post here. I did take Alex's post as a serious one. I try to be humorous myself now and then. It doesn't alwys work and I have offended some people in the past. I should be the last one to criticize and force someone to stop posting. I will be more thoughtful in the future.
Vince.
Vince, you're pretty darn good at being humorous, and even making a little jab now and them, without being offensive. If even you are sometimes misunderstood, or sometimes misundertand, then it just shows how easy it is to be misunderstood with this written communication, especially when you're taking the risks humor can involve... understand??
Now, Alex, get your similarly awsome self back posting pronto, or you get no snacks for a week! Think if it - |||NO SNACKS|||. I'm serious, Alex.
...a character in this forum? I am really mystified if she is real or just a figment of someone's imagination. Based on her writing style, would you be able to tell what kind of a person she is.
I am interested in meeting her if she's real and if she's as truthful as she claims. She calls herself "Lady Gambler" but she seems more of a modern version of Mae West. She's got power, she's got confidence and she's bold.
Yeah, well I think you're only admiring Lady Gambler -- not me. That's okay. I'm here to help.
"She's got power, she's got confidence and she's bold."
And she's got a computer. This we know.
Badger actually thinks he knows who she is. Maybe he can help. Oh, but he doesn't read silly threads. But wait, he must have been reading that Lady Gambler thread. I don't know, I'm even more confused than I was in that goat post.
It is just that I try to be a good person in actual life. I think I do a pretty good job. When I post a joke, and someone interprets it seriously and gets mad I feel as though someone is honestly mad at me. I can't stand it when people are honestly mad at me, especially people who I like or admire. That just happens to include the present superstar company, scott of course excluded. Anyway, I think that I'll try to restrict my posts to just openers like the bio-suits, et al. Oh, John, I think you might of missed it, but I think you would like my post of the jeopardy/family feud one. It's a good 'un.
Anyhow, I'll try to do better in the future. And please, no one seriously get mad at me. I'm never serious, not ever. Of course I would never, ever, not ever say that a real woman was a prostitute.
I am beginning to have greater respect for people who convey humor through writing. It must be much more difficult than verbal. Imagine how much would be lost if Chris Rock would be read instead of heard.
i'll tone it down, but it still rankles me when my harmless computer post prompted this paul fellow to call me out. I guess I took it over the top.
alex b.
Not bad, 78 minutes from pulling the rip cord, to a nice soft landing.
Todd
what sort of food do you serve. Could we order chinese food? I'm a big fan of fried dumplings. Also, if there is any hint of good food, I start playing on my belly and lose super fast. That's pretty much the nature of my play against the pack.
I lose my stake before dinner something like 60-70% of the time. I always want to order early, but some of these bums like their pizza at 11:00 at night. Anyway, so then after dinner I get cracking, and usually end up okay.
So, if you want to take my ten dollar stake, keep slipping me single dumplings throughout the night to whet my appetitite. That'll do me in for sure.
Also, you should check out AJ's on rockville pike. They have righteous dumplings there and some scallion pancakes that are awesome. Don't get the thousand layer pancake though. Not only is it misadvertised but it is also not so tasty.
Also you should check out Taipai/Tokyo......uh oh, I'm gonna get deleted for advertising aren't I. Damn.
well, let the moral be that I have a greater command of the cheap oriental eats in the greater washington area than anyone else I know, that includes djtj the chinaman.
oh, as for my soft landing. I can't stay mad or sad for very long. 78 minutes might actually be the record for me.
alex
I dont know AJs. You should expand your horizons and go for Thai food at Benjarong, in the wintergreen plaza. You will never go back to Chinese.
As per scott's warning, we now have a closet full of pringles with the pop tops so you will have no risk of becoming hypo-lard-emic. We feed our guests because we care about our guests.
Later,
off to work I go
Todd
is this "You know you are eating correctly when you aren't eating any thai food. You know you are eating incorrectly when you are eating thai food."
So, i have done some thinking and have decided that this theorem leads to several subseqeunt correlaries. Primarily, one should avoid Thai food. I'll tell you why. Thai food has two pillars, Pad Thai, and Satay. As an appetizer, Satay makes you fart and is not as substantial as fried dumplings.
Pad Thai much harder to crack, but it must be said that it lacks the diversity or vitality of either a great lo-mein or even a strong fried rice. Also, Chinese food holds all the trumps (soft shell crabs, Peking Duck, Crispy Beef). I think you are sadly beaten Todd, and should check out AJs.
it's just so good. i love fried dumplings, too.
scott
I used to agree with your two pillar theory, in fact, I ordered Pad Thai at every thai restaurant I went to as a barometer of the quality of the food there. However, I have not had pad thai in 3 years. I decided that it is an inferior dish when compared to drunken noodles, or Pad see yeuw. These are both made with fat chow foon noodles and are as fantastic tasting as they are substantial.
My gripe with Chinese food is the one dimensionalness of it. It seems there are a hundred different spice combinations in Thai food, and like 2 in chinese. I grew very board of chinese, and then was delivered from my boredom by Benjarongs thia.
We should get take out from there for the 1st joint poker party.
Then youll see.
Todd
Order Lo Funds and enter LL Game Hen. Pluck Off & Fill Pockets with Din Ero. Leave Chop Chop!!!
Ah So Y No
What historical figure do you guys think would be good card players? I'd have to go with Metternich probably, Alexander Menshikov, Clinton (i'm not kidding), but I'd have to say that all-time best prospect would have to be Livia, Emperor Augustus' wife who killed him by painting poison on apples' still on the trees. She was damn tricky.
alex
you have to consider what poker in particular, cause like in that post with the kirk spock thing, some forms are more emmotional while some are more probability dictates play. i'm adding my vote for machiavelli and (no flames please) hitler. I mean, those guys were influential.
-Joe
Alex thanks for softening up all my hate mailers, now I'll be able to attack them from the blinds, because I can see now that they are alot more sensitive than me.
Hate Me Plz With Or Without Flu-Shots!!!
On another to the point note it's loaded and ready to use. I go to NY quite often unlike my Bro and I already have your picture. Let me tell you how it will happen you'll be coming out of a busy place, someone will bump into you and you'll feel a slight prick. The person will be very nice excusing him/herself and you'll forget about it. Fifteen minutes later you'll be gasping for air. Thirty minutes later DOA.
Have a nice day BB
don't kill me please! How about we get some pizza next time you in are in NY. You can talk in code, and I'll talk in code, and we'll both eat our pizza and not understand anything.
it'll be great, AND, we can play some PO-KAR.
ZKJL
how does time fly.
alex
Is that what the casino in Montreal is called? Do they have a poker room? I'm thinking of visiting a friend up there, despite the bitter cold. I guess I'll go anyway, but might stay longer if there's a poker room.
I was there recently and there is no poker room. I would say it is only worth a trip if you collect chips, or you just like the casino atmosphere. It is rather unlike casinos in the USA. Just a different feel.
There is an Indian casino in NY state, like 1.5 hrs from montreal that I also visited on this road trip called the Akwesasne Mohawk Casino. It is a really nice new indian casino. When I was there in the end of October they said they were going to start holdem and stud in a "few weeks" (what I would pay to be there for the first few weeks!!) I dont know if they have started playing but herre is a web site.
http://casinoguide.com/us/ny/akwesasn.html
www.mohawkcasino.com
You should definately go if they have poker, if only based on how poorly they played blackjack and the Big Six wheel.
Todd
we are going there the first few days of the millenium.
scott
g
Todd-thanks for the link, but neither sight mentions a poker room. No big deal, but it would've been nice since I'll probobly be up there anyway.
A few days ago I posted a question to the effect: Why are loose, wild, no-foldem games hard to beat? I got some good responses but to one fellow who said the assumption was wrong and that he does regularly beat these games - I cry bullshit! He spoke of the big action you get on nut hands. Well that's true, but how many nut hands do you get when 8 players are at the flop? And what do you do with all the hands between the nut hands? You pitch in blinds and try to make something of the few cards you are dealt that have potential - often paying two or three bets to see the flop, and then having to decide if the high pair you made is actually better than the hands of the four other guys staying in.
My suspicion is - and it's unverified because nobody likes to talk about their long term losses - nobody wins at these games on a regular basis. Commonly there is someone on a 'heater' who makes a big brick of chips, but the next several sessions he's right back down like the rest of them. I think the only regular outflow of money is the $40 - $60 the dealer puts in his tray, and the tokes.
Consider this: If the best poker player in the world sat down at a table with a bunch of poker idiots, all of whom made one simple commitment - to never play any hand against the pro less than pocket kings, unless on the blind - that best player could not win.
I think something similar goes on at these low limit wild and loose holdem games. The players by mutual consent have all agreed to maul each other to the point that nobody can get the best of the table.
Post deleted at author's request.
Gary Larson;
OK smart guy, you would win by taking many of the blinds under the terms I described. But you would get resistance from the blinds themselves. My basic point still stands - the pro would find this game to be a waste of his time. No action, no big pots.
Why don't you enlighten us as to how you 'win' against the type of game I described - loose, wild, lots of raising etc? And please don't say it's how you play the nuts. You can sit at a game like this for 6 hours and never get a nut. With so many players in the hands (that excellent players like yourself are not in) a lot of time is spent watching on the sidelines.
Biguns - let the blinds defend. They are going to be out of position, playing two random cards.
If I'm playing a game where I get to choose where and when to call, but my opponent is always out of position and forced to put half a bet into the pot before seeing his cards, I'm taking all his money. It's that simple. If you give an excellent short-handed player this situation, he could probably win all the money without looking at his cards.
This is from Mark Twain's "Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court":
"There are some things that can beat smartness and foresight. Awkwardness and stupidity can. The best swordsman in the world doesn't need to fear the second best swordsman in the world: no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant antagonist who has never had a sword in his hand before: he doesn't do the thing he ought to do, and so the expert isn't prepared for him; he does the thing he ought not to do: and often it catches the expert out and ends him on the spot."
I think this applies to your post, but since this is poker and not swordfighting, it only applies in the short term. Look, everyone knows that there's little worse than getting backdoored out of a huge pot by some snotnosed kid who's been betting out of turn for the last hour because he's never been in a real game before. And he's usually playing cards that no one with a basic knowledge of the game would EVER see the flop with. But I believe that being patient, tightening up a bit and slowplaying big hands are the trick to turning short term frustration into that same snotnose leaving the table with his tail between his legs. I usually slowplay these types of situations, because if I'm going to be called regardless of my play, and I've been getting rivered out by these types of players, I'd rather wait until I have the absolute nuts to raise or reraise. I rarely attempt to check-raise in these situations, as I find that most new players are scared to bet in any situations, especially the longshot draws they're usually on. Usually a check is met with checks all the way around in these situations.
I myself play in low limit games, since I'm working with a limited BR, so I often find myself sitting at tables with these loose, inexperienced players. Patience is the key for me, and only seeing the flop with premium hands.
Hope this long post is worth it. . .
shooter
I'm guessing Mark Twain wasn't much of a swordsman.
While there is a grain of truth to that statement, it's pretty rare that any situation can truly favor an untrained person against an expert. Poker is probably the worst example, because the good player has time to watch and think before reacting.
I've seen lots of decent players get slaughtered by the fish, but that's because they are only decent players and not experts. The decent players can't adapt. They can watch a maniac cap every betting round for an hour, and they'll still throw away their unimproved aces for a raise on the turn, because that's what they've always done. There can 10 players in every pot, but they are still throwing away 33 under the gun, because that's what they've always done. Etc.
In loose crazy wild games, the real fish are the ones that fold to much on the late rounds. And that describes an awful lot of 'good' players.
I watched an otherwise very good player make one of the biggest mistakes I've seen in a long, long time recently. It was a 10/20 game, with two maniacs driving all the action. He came in with KK, and the flop was K87, three suits. Capped before the flop, capped on the flop (he didn't do any raising, because the maniacs did it for him). I think there was six or seven way action, so there are something like 50 small bets in this pot. The turn brings in a second suited card, but low (a 2 or 3). Maniac bets, other Maniac raises. Good player calls, hoping the maniacs will re-raise and cap. Another player cold-calls behind the good player. Maniacs re-raise and cap. There are now around EIGHTY small bets in this pot. The river is a bad card, a 9 of the same suit, putting a straight and a flush on the board. First maniac bets, second maniac raises, and the good player THROWS HIS HAND AWAY. The player behind him calls, and hauls the pot with two pair.
The funny thing is that the good player said afterwards, "I had to fold. I knew the cold-caller behind me was on a draw, and both draws came in." Another tight player sitting beside him agreed. "You can't call. The maniacs put you in a tough spot."
Well, I could have called. In a heartbeat. I might have even re-raised in case the caller behind me made a straight and just might lay it down facing three bets with a flush on board.
This was an 80-90 small bet error. And yet the two tight players didn't even think twice about it. They bitched about the maniacs, and went on to the next hand.
THAT is how to lose in a wild game.
Wow. . .That was a horrible play by your friend. With 80 small bets in the pot, why in the world wouldn't he call all the way to the river?? Even if he thought his hand was beaten, there's too much in the pot to throw away ANY decent hand.
For some reason, this situation reminds me of Barry Sanders. He spent his entire life racking up rushing yards, and on the verge of breaking Walter Payton's record he decided to retire, for whatever reasons he (and his dad) has. Many people look at his decision as foolish, and judging by the pot that went to those two pair, I'm sure your friend didn't need to be told that he was foolish as well.
shooter
But he DID need to be told. He thought he made a good laydown. When he saw two pair win the pot, his reaction was not so much to berate himself, but to be furious with the maniacs for 'forcing' him out of the pot. One of this person's big strengths is knowing when to get off a hand. His defense is awesome, and it serves him very well in our nornal, fairly tight and agressive games. He's a big winner overall. But his style doesn't fit well in these wild games. A good percentage laydown in a 10 small bet pot is a horrible fold when the pot is almost ten times that size. But some players just can't break the habits they've built over years and years of play.
With the tight games, KK only, you simply steal all the money. Very easy.
With the loose games you just have to play well and fairly tight. Loose games with lots of raising are harder to beat then loose passive games or even partly loose games.
Yes. The difficulty comes from not being able to get anyone to fold with your decent, but not great hands. Getting outdrawn is a constant in loose-aggressive games.
So as a relatively new player, I've interpreted talk of "game selection" to mean I should be looking for the loosest game I can find. Am I making a mistake? I'd rather get outdrawn 2 out of 3 hands than play against guys who won't stay in the pot unless they have me beat. Right?
Last time I said this I was told I was not as good as I thought. Well it is because I do know how good I am is why I look for an Ideal game to beat. A table full of maniacs is near impossible to beat on a regular basis for all the reasons you pointed out and more.
Don't let these guys BS you - look for a good mix of players and no more than 3 maniacs (better to have 2)and you'll do OK.
. . .and the rest. Thanks for your responses. I'm all charged up to go back one more time to the crazy no-foldem table. It is somewhat heartening to learn there are others (good players I think) that do find these games no easy knockoff. One interesting conclusion I come to is that even though these tables are full of players who break all the rules, the best hope for overcoming them is to be very disciplined yourself, especially in choice of hands to play and to stay with. And as always, reading your opponents at critical times. (I've found there to be much more bluffing at these games than in the only other type of game I play - no-limit holdem tourn.).
About maniacs: Since I read Sklanky's words on how to treat maniacs I've looked forward to playing with them. There presense in these loose games is not really the problem. It is the players that see every flop and chase to the river. Whereas a maniac trys hard to end it right now. And in my experience, I've found maniacs easier to read than other players.
Nick
While I did describe strategies for beating these games, I have to somewhat agree with Rounder that wild agressive games can be difficult to beat. And while you're trying, your variance is through the roof. So it's not going to be easy to see whether you are playing well or not.
I personally prefer a nice loose passive game. That's where the easy money is.
I must say that the number of inane threads on this board is growing exponentially. What with all the flame threads and author bashing posts and Mark Glover's nitpicks etc., one can only hope that the quality of the discussion in the new year reverts to the level that it was at just a couple of months ago. As it is, I am already having to be very selective on whose posts I read; most of the stuff these days is just soap opera(ish).
skp,
I agree with you here. The amount of poker discussed on the forum has dropped a lot as of late. The quality is there, you just have to work harder to find it.
Many threads start out pretty well, but quickly spiral off on some tangent. Part of that has to do with the fact that the forum has become much more "youthful" (the nicest way I can say it) in the last couple of months. I don't know why the personal attacks have started. I was told to shut-up without any explanation in a post below.
I'm sorry that the amount of interesting poker has gone down on this particular forum. But I've restricted it to this particular forum. The general theory decline in theory has nothing to do with me, and is more related to the author wars of late.
I am from now on not going to engage in one-on-one arguments on my behalf, but will do so at bequest of others.
Furthermore, I think that other topics is as advertised, and would end up being a squalid hellhole without humor. So, instead of posting about why you don't like it, why don't you tell a funny story about the first time you tried to screw a grapefruit. Just kidding, that was a joke. I know you don't screw grapefruits. HAHAHA. Tell Paul Feeney not to kill me.
alex
Hey, nothing wrong with posting "inane" stuff on Other Topics. As you say, this is the spot to get a little silly and put up some humour etc. My real concern is with the spiralling effect Jon speaks off on the other Forums. A thread starts out with an useful, interesting topic and quickly degenerates into something truly idiotic. That's my grapefruit...er...beef.
is your insinuation that youthful posters are contributing to the decline of the forum? i am a youthful poster and, while i admit that not all of my posts are of high quality, i like to think that i have, on occassion, added something of value to the discussions here. and my feeble attempts to do so shall continue, regardless of my past failures.
scott
i, too, have noticed that there has been few interesting threads recently. jim brier should post more problems. and the theory forum has had several irrelevant threads that i found boring (there was finally one i found interesting, but it was still not good poker discussion.) but there have not been many long unrelated tangents on the hold em forum. which threads do you mean?
scott
This is what happens when children get ahold of their fathers computers.
i assume you are implying that my friends and i have responsible to the decline in qualtity. to which threads/posts are you referring?
scott
the real decline came when that crazy Paul Feeney came around with his stupid abbrev. for everything under the sun. i fell totally apart and no longer can contribute anything worthy of general interest. i hate him. i hope those young wippersnappers get him good.
Ray Zee, you've got to get your friends in the park police to arrest Paul Feeney for scaring me. Tell them to drag him out of the burned out stump he lives in and bring him downtown.
I'm sure the interrogation would be productive. They'll be sure he is a spy for some country, but they won't be able to find out which one.
I think the only solution is to write a Paul Feeney translator computer program that would analyze his posts and provide what he is trying to say in clear english. I've already discovered a couple of them...........
"BB" - This means I like taking baths with live ducks.
"Zeeman" - A commonly used phrase actually describes the name of the comic book character that Paul imagines himself to be on lonely nights at the stump.
"Flu Shots" - I have rabies.
"PFJF" - Although ostensibly referring to himself and his brother, I believe there to be an ulterior motive to this abbreviation. I think that the analyze holds much more water when analyzed in terms of Paul Feeney's snack choices......."Pizza Frozen Just Sucks" I haven't been able to reconcile the last word yet, but am working on it.
more to come.
alex
BB it's down far enuf so noone else will read it but you. The darts are on there way from Santa. Have a prick of a christmas and don't worry about Y2K.
ukw (I need a new Stump For Xmass)
well, I'm sure many of you are interested into how superstar John Feeney got into poker. So was I, so I decided to begin a biography of him. Bear in mind that it is fairly early in the first manuscript and John is being quite kind with the interviews, but he must pardon a few artistic impressions.
We'll open our story on how John began to play pro poker on an abandoned road in rural San Diego county. John is strolling along tuggin his pet goat "cokie" by a thin tinsel string
"sure feels good go get the old legs stretched out, don't it cokie, ahick ahick" (thats how the rural people laugh)
So there goes John down the road until he quite abruptly runs into a pole. Rather than help him when he's down, his goat bits him in both the rear end and back. Furious at cokie, John vows to get rid of him at the next possible juncture. Fortunately for him this occurs down the road about a mile as a travelling salesman offers to swap him a dime bag of weed for cokie.
Jim, not knowing what a dime, bag, or weed was (needless to say he was also unable of putting the concepts together). So, then he was unsure what to do with the weed. So, he actually (thinking of what cokie would do with it) ate it.
then he became a professional poker player.
alex
well, I'm sure many of you are interested into how superstar John Feeney got into poker.
Oh yeah, everyone's just chompin' at the bit for this one.
so I decided to begin a biography of him.
Oh sweet mother of God, in what psychotic delerium, did I choose AlexB as my biographer?!? Stick him Paul!
So there goes John down the road until he quite abruptly runs into a pole.
This does have a familiar ring to it. Why I remember... ~~~~~~ No, Paul, you CANNOT come out now. I'll let you out for ANOTHER post - not this one.
THBCX!!
No, STOP it RIGHT NOW, Paul!...
Okay, where was I?
Furious at cokie
It was my Sam Donaldson impression.
travelling salesman offers to swap him a dime bag of weed for cokie.
Oh, "bag of weeeed"! I thought he said "magic beans". But the giant looked a little like the ZEEman. Was that you Ray? I'm getting confused.
So, he actually (thinking of what cokie would do with it) ate it. then he became a professional poker player.
I'm sorry, but this is the story of the birth of an Omaha player. I don't play Omaha. Badger? Can you vouch for any of this? (Now watch him not respond, PRETENDING he doesn't read threads like this. Yeah, right. Oh, you still have the cold?)
I stole Alex's sweet mother of god line. :-/
throw my sweater out the window if I didn't pick it up by the time he left tomorrow morning. I hope and pray that he will not do so, because without a doubt I will be asleep when he leaves for mont co.
So, I'll have to ask John Feeney, resident sorcerer to put a magic spell on Scott so that he will bring home the sweater and give it to me at home. John Feeney has already been responsible for many sorceries including the bribing of Shoeless Joe, Watergate, and the firing of Norm MacDonald on SNL. John, the last one wasn't funny!
Anyway, John, take a look in the old feeney clan spell book and see if there is a "sweater manipulation table image spell". Multiple table images having to do with multiple sweaters and multiple snacks. Ummmmmmmmm, snacks. Actually, If it weren't three o'clock in the morn I'd have me a nice sampling of fried dumplings right now.
Oh, and John, don't feel bad that my biography is off to a bad start. I haven't added the cocaine chapters, the gun purchasing chapters, the gun using chapters, the gun using chapters volume 2, the prison chapters, and hopefully if all goes well in Jan, the bust out chapters.
take care.
alex.
Just saw the green mile. Wasn't it hilarious when that guys head ignited in the electric chair? It reminded me of something Monty Python would have done. I almost busted a rib laughing during the entire scene.
Howard
I think that movie would have been better, if they had gone a different direction in regards to the big black guy having supernatural powers.
I liked it - it was nice to see an uplifting movie specially when the little dweeb got his come upins.
To bad the guards didn't play hold'em while on duty. Would have been all the movie needed for me. :-)
Vey good movie. Unfortunately, I read the book before watching the movie, which always makes a great movie much worse. In fact, in the book there is a billy the kid/wild bill dead man's hand reference...just thought that was interesting.
And as far as you laughing at del's execution scene, well it's people like you that keep the video rental places in business.
"it's people like you who keep the video rental places in business"???
Why's that?
Because when people make obnoxious remarks and laugh in parts of the movies that couldn't be construed as funny by any stretch of the imagination, I wish that I were watching the movie at home alone.
Mike
You must hate Howard Stern.
You know Jane, I used to listen to Howard pretty much everyday. Then all of the sudden, I stopped laughing at his jokes, and hearing him make fun of everybody just wasn't funny to me anymore. I have nothing against him really. I read his first book, "Private Parts" and also enjoyed the movie, but I've started listening to music in the morning.
Mike
"I read the book before watching the movie, which always makes a great movie much worse"
You are correctamundo! There are few exceptions. One that comes to mind was "The Collectors". Great book better movie.
Vince.
Vince, Im not familiar with "The Collectors" Is it new/old, who's in it, who wrote the book?
If you say it is good, i will be sure to check it out.
I read the book in the early Seventies. I don't remeber the author's name. I believe the movie came out a little later. I cannot for the Life of me remember if the Movie had the same name. Old age crreping up you think? The book is about a Psycho type that is a Butterfly Collector. That's all I will say.
Vince.
Vince,
The movie was The Collector, based on the novel by John Fowles; it was released in 1965. His later novel, The French Lieutenant's Woman, was also the basis for a successful film.
John,
Thanks. Was it that long ago. Wow. What did you think of the Book and Movie. Do you agree they were both excellant?
Vince.
Vince,
In graduate school I was told never to admit not having read a book. If someone asks if you had read, say Moby Dick, the correct response is "Not lately; tell me about it." Well, anyway, I haven't read the book, but I did see the movie when I was about seventeen--and I loved it. I think the movie also caused quite a bit of controversy when it was first released, back in the days when everyone wasn't so jaded and movies could cause controversy. I also believe Antonioni's Blow-Up was released the same year--another film that had people talking. I miss those days.
Regards,
John
John,
"Blair Witch Project" had people talking. How are these days any different?
Rick
P.S. Merry Christmas
People were people back then. Now, they're just, "people".
Vince.
Vince,
I don't get it but Im half Polish and a little dense.
BTW, I was just kidding of course when I poked fun at "that other Italian" somewhere around here. Anyway, I'm looking forward to meeting you some day and am not sure you play in the Foxwoods area or mostly in Las Vegas. I should be both places in the next year of so.
Anyway, have a Merry Christmas.
Regards.
Rick
Hi Rick,
I agree somewhat, but older films, in particular, Blow-Up, had adults talking, which is certainly much different than the reaction of the "wicked pisser" crowd. That is, many of todays's films that cause a reaction can only provoke one syllable responses from moviegoers; it's the Beavis and Butthead syndrome--cool vs. sucks. Also, we don't seem capable of being shocked anymore. And I know that you know that the intended audience for many of today's movies can not really discuss what they've seen.
And even movies that do attempt to target an adult audience, Eyes Wide Shut, for example, meet with responses from critics which have nothing to do with the film itself. Alas, listen to that neo-conservative, Christian twit, Michael Medved whine, "I just couldn't relate to the characters," and you'll see what somehow passes for serious criticism these days. I guess the fault lies not in the films themselves, sometimes, but in those who pass themselves off as the final arbiters of taste. Thumbs down!
Merry Christmas,
John
John,
I liked "Eyes Wide Shut" but that is not much of a review. It was visually stunning and took me into another world. At the same time, I thought the mainstream movie "The Sixth Sense" was well done. But then again "Titanic" made me cry.
Anyway, what did you think of "American Beauty"? I loved the scene where Kevin Spacey applies for the job at the burger joint. Young pimply faced kid: "Sir, we don't have any management positions open." Spacey: "You don't understand. I want the job with the least possible responsibility."
Regards,
Rick
P.S. What was that screwy movie with the whale that you keep tellling me to see? I might actually rent it.
Boy, Rick,
I just don't get to see many movies this time of year, so I haven't seen American Beauty, but I want to. In fact, tonight's my last class of the semester, and I'm punishing them by making them show up. Of course, they all love me, so it's no real trouble for them.
The movie is On Top of the Whale by Raul Ruiz, a Chilean director who has just directed his first "Hollywood" movie, Shattered Image. "Screwy" is a good word for Whale. I've seen it now five times, and it keeps getting better. You'll hate it.
John
Vince,
What about the Godfather? That was a good book but a classic movie. How could an Italian forget?
Regards,
Rick
P.S. In the book the scene where Sonny badda-bing, badda-bang, badda-booms one of the bridesmaids against the door always used to bring my Mr. Johnson to attention. In the movie it just wasn't that good.
Fogettaboutit! "God Father" Great Book, Classic Movie, of course. A paisano makes an error. Forgive me Rickie. Must have been tinkling about LG.
The Shining movie I thought was a lot better than the Stephen King book. Even though King hated it.
that kid was so cool.
alex
Didn't read the book and although a Nickleson fan wasn't crazy about the movie.
Vince.
Alex,
I'm no big Stephen King fan but the book was much more powerful.
Regards,
Rick
Doyle posted at deja that some mean guy beat miss Duke out of 4 racks of black chips($40,000). I don't, and probably never will, play for that type of cash. Do you think they were playing no-limit? And if not, what limit most likely were they playing?
Thanks, Bobby
Could be anything 300-600 to pot limit to no limit.
40K don't last long in these type of games if your not playing well.
Rounder,
I've heard of people committing suicide after losing similar amounts of money in the stock market. But I never seem to hear the same type of stories pertaining to high stakes poker players. Have you?
No! We are a different breed - we have character and can take a loss with grace and dignity. :-{
Of course I have never lost such an amount. Biggest single loss was in 1992 I bet Bush would win the election. Oh well!
"poker players have character", "Poker player take losses with grace & dignity"
I think that is true for poker players more often than not, but on those occasions when it's not--Man Oh Man!!!
-Don
It was ment to be a joke - sort of.
Hey how did Crystal Park reneg on the guarantee $$$ for the January tournaments. I will skip them if this is so. I am playing in Vegas at the Carnivale for sure so I'll just go earlier now.
John do you ever get as far south as Oceanside.
I'm not sure of all the facts. I heard from a very reliable source that they backed off this week on the guarantee for one of their tournaments. I heard that this was the third time they had done so. There was a follow up post on RGP that said Crystal Park was cancelling the rest of their guaranteed tournament schedule. I don't know how accurate that information is. I haven't set foot in the place since I heard that they had terminated Robert Turner. When all the dust has cleared, and I get a report from someone who has the honest scoop, I'll let you know. Until that time, I'll simply stay away. As this grows and the rumors spread, I expect someone who represents the cardroom will issue some type of statement.
Thanks John,
I will await your report - maybe I'll just go to the Oceans 11 and on to the Carnivale.
Stay in touch.
I'm playing for the 1st time in the Tues (also playing on thurs.) at the Harras (Showboat) in East Chicago or is it Gary.
What can I expect in the way of # starters and prize pool I understand it is a rebuy tourney.
I'll post my results tomorrow.
I've never played a tourney at Harrah's in East Chicago, but I will be there tonight for the 5:00 p.m. boarding. I'm going to check you out and see if you're for real. Just kidding! I'll make a report on this forum on Sunday.
mah I missed the tues tourney but I am definately going tonight for the HE tourney. I will make the 5pm boarding - I'm coming from des plaines so i have to leave by 3:30 to make it - see you there.
Yup. I went there Thursday night and the sign said all Tournaments cancelled as of December 23. I did not see you there, that's if the photo is really you on the Dick in Phoenix page, but I sat down for a nice easy game of 3-6-12 Hold'em. You should have been there, it was real easy money. Maybe, I'll see you at COP. I'll be there from JAN 12th to the 18th, and am staying at Harrah's.
"tis the season…well, here’s what Santa has in store for you guys...
For:
Alex B...a comforter with a huge Maple Leaf on it
Chris Algers, GD and Tom Haley...a compass to find their way back here more often
Badger...A complimentary copy of The Theory of Poker
Jim Brier...the solution to Sklansky Problem No. 9,632,543
Gary Carson...a patch-up with you know who
John Feeney...exclusive rights to "superstar"
Izmet Fekali...300 smackeroos from David Sklansky
Lady Gambler...nothing...she’s apparently fully loaded
Mark Glover...something better to nitpick about
Dan Hanson...No Y2K appearances on the side of a milk carton
Vince Lepore...a penguin book and lots of luck with LG who by all accounts is a handful
Mason Malmuth...many more 44s
Rick "gotta run" Nebolio...what else but a good pair of Nikes
Greg Raymer...a new nickname so I can steal his
Rounder...a good probabilities book...13 winning hands in a row...and a wheelbarrow to take home his poker chips every night
scott...an ability to type one of these :) and one of those (:
David Sklansky...a guidebook to posting etiquette so that he can finally figure out how to place his posts in the proper spot...(what’s up with that?)
Ray Zee...directions to "shift" on his keyboard
To you and yours…a happy and safe holiday season!
skp,
You stole almost all my ideas for the wish list I was working on. Have you hacked into my computer? We play almost alike and now this. Anyway, have a happy holiday one and all.
Regards,
Rick
P.S. BTW, I'm a cheap $25 pair of Reebok's kind of guy. So at least you didn't hack into my closet.
Post deleted at author's request.
Ah..."great minds think alike" or is it "fools never differ":)
BTW, it seems that I also failed to hack into your wallet to check out your ID as I sure screwed up the spelling of your last name in my initial post...very unSanta-like...my apologies.
Fully loaded? Fill me up!
Happy holidays too and love and kisses to everyone!
Lady Gambler,
I've got a full load of high octane fuel in my tanks and the best possible equipment to deliver it. Plus I run a "full service" station which is hard to find in these days of self serve. I'll let you have some at a deep discount since this is the season to be jolly and generous. But if you decline have a happy holiday anyway. I sense you have a thing for that other Italian who posts here :-). Too bad for me I guess.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
Speed it up!
How can you fill me up when you are always on the run? Maybe if you can slow down a little bit, I might go for the full service treatment and take advantage of the discount.
Happy holidays too and same goes to your student.
I meant a Man! Man! Man!
Who Flung Dung,
Who flung dung to who? You flung the dung at yourself, that's who!! Still a Merry Christmas to you!!!
You better watch out You better not lie You better not call a Lady a HO Santa Clause will kick you in the a--!
He knows if you are funnin He knows if you are mean He knows LG is a woman Whose friends call her a Dream
So you betta wathca out You betta no lie You betta call her a Lady you see Cause Santa Clause will kick you in the a--!
Santa!
Merry Christmas too, dear Vince ooops Santa, I mean. May you have the best that life can bring and again my love and kisses to you and you and most of all to you!!
I shoulda never come back. It's killing all my time again!
Merry Christmas! And for SKP... A nice Omaha High game in Vancouver.
I'd like to get my friend Big John a deck of cards with only Aces and Kings so he can stop playing all those rage he loves so much.
Happy Holidays to all of you.
just this once. thanks skp.
scott
Thanks for the thought. I do need a new comforter though because I've begun to go to the bathroom out of my window at columbia because of the long walk to the restroom, especially when i'm more or less intoxicated. So anyway, although it is convenient, aim has become a problem, and my comforter has begun to suffer as my bed is right in front of the window. So, I could get the benefit of the new comforter, and insult it at the same time!
(Just a joke, or is it.........................bum bum bummmmmmmm!)
I'm gonna have my high school game tanight for da first time since Thanksgiving. Mark says we are getting these chopped beef sandwiches from this irish place, and they looked damn good the one time he brought it to school, bragged about how good it was, and then refused to share with anyone. I almost killed him ala PF that day.
take care, and happy holidays to all of you. ALL of you. Including rounder, rsp, Greg(something or another, the guy who said i was an idiot), sammyb, john, vince, and even both paul (who's going to kill me), and mason (who made me feel bad about my image post).
i hope santa gives all of you what you really want. I want a harmonica
alex
Best wishes to you Alex and all your college buddies. Health and prosperity and most of all mucho overlays. (Actually college kids go for any lays they can get right?)
... everybody's picture! Remember?
I have five. And one of those is mine.
For anyone who has sent me a regular photo by snail mail, there will be a 2 week delay while I travel. Back Jan. 5. But I will have my laptop along, and any photos I get in e-mail will be put up within a couple of days.
The five photos are at Dick's Poker Page.
The happiest of holidays to all. I have made many new friends this year at 2+2.
Dick
Dick,
Just take Shaun Connery's picture and put my name under it!
Vince.
i'll also use smileys in the spirit of the holidays, but think that using them to show you're making a joke is a little bit like a laugh track in a sit com.
hey vince, ever see celebrity jeopardy with Sean Connery on snl?
Trebeck "The categories are therapists, the letter a, current presidents, etc......."
Connery : "I'll take the rapists for 300"
Trebeck : "um, thats therapists sean"
Connery : "Fine, I'll play your game you rogue"
alex
Dick,
Is the picture of Scott in your gallery scott. If yes, then you need to change the 'S' to a lowercase 's'.
so i guess i'm still a superstar...
that was easy
here are some more
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
:(
this guy is the seeker. everyone hates him cause he never smiles. as he ransacks our homes we want shake his hand.
(i asked bobby dylan, i asked the beattles, i asked timothy leary, but he couldn't help me either.)
pinky. get off the line. the train's comming. pinky. the train. YOU!! YES, YOU!! STAND STILL, LADDIE!!!
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
(you'd better get all up in your favorite disguise, with your button down lips and your cold black eyes.)
there's nothing wrong with visual expression, per se. but i can't imagine that any of you think these smiley faces convey more information than prose. i shall continue to express myself in words.
you don't know what to think when i write n/t. and ray zee stole my joke.
scott
You've now used up your quota. p.s. Don't concern yourself with Ray's theft of your idea. At his level he's just always alert to good stealing opportunities.
scott,
What Joke Was That?
-Karl
PS: Remember, if Ray Zee stole it, it couldn't have been all that funny anyway. But I'm still curious.
it was the joke of writing messages in no text posts. specifically things like "i said no text. why are you here?" i admit that it is not brilliant, but we still have intellectual property rights, don't we?
scott
Thanks skp. And for you... 12 good "play of the hold'em hand" threads, all with titles like "Check-raise slam dance in the key of C(ash)", rather than "Hold'em Hand" (a nod to Rick).
As for me, I'll trade my rights to "superstar" for Alex's harmonica (if it's a Honer blues harp), one more smiley from scott, or actually seeing Sean Connery go up with Vince's name on Dick's page.
**Happy Holidays**
Hello all- I put a brief message in the "Events" section, but thought I would ramble a bit more here. No poker content, so you purists may want to skip it.
Yesterday I got a phone call from Australia and a confirming email regarding the documentary I filmed for the Discovery Channel. It is going to be shown twice on Sunday January 9th and then again on Saturday January 15th. Times were not known for sure.
(For those of you who joined us late......
Discovery Channel is starting a new series called "American Journey" after the first of the year. There will be 26 half hour shows each profiling an ordinary type person who does something unusual. For some reason they wanted to do a story on a recreational player who was "thrilled" to be participating in the Tournament of Champions. Several of us were contacted, and apparently I was the only one foolish enough to say yes.
They filmed for 3 days at my home with my family, in the woods outside of Green Bay, came to my office to film me at work, and then were with me for 5 days in Vegas. They filmed the entire time I was playing in the TOC and then there were additional interviews with friends and family. This was all made into a half hour show. Probably boring as heck, but sentimental value for me.
I haven't seen any advance copy, so I will be seeing it for the first time myself when it airs on TV. Actually the timing is cool, because I will be in Vegas at the Carnivale when it comes on. Surrounded by poker, how fitting.
Happy Holidays to all, Diane from Green Bay
Hi Diane,
I look forward to seeing the show. I'll be at COP from the 12th to the 18th. Maybe I'll see you there. Merry Christmas!
mah
Mark (and any other readers/posters)
Right now I will be there at the Carnivale from 1/7-1/12 for sure, with the possibility of extending my trip until Saturday 1/15.
I would love to get together for a meal or chat with anyone else from 2+2 who will be there.
Diane from Green Bay
I haven't finalized my plans yet but I am hoping to be there too.
I will post me tournament schedule when I have it together.
first, i want to give credit to Dr. Arnold Ross, who wrote these problem sets. he is now emeritus at ohio state, but still runs and lectures a great math summer program called ross young scholars program, housed at ohio state.
the actual problem sets included exploration type questions where you were supposed to develop conjectures. you were supposed to anticipate most results. i am going to leave them out, unless they seem particularly interesting.
here are the axioms for Z, the integers. + , * are well defined binary operations (that means you put in 2 numbers, get out one number) that are commutative and associative. * is distrubutive over +. there exists an additive identity 0 and a multiplicative identity 1. 0 does not equal 1. given an integer, a, there exists an integer, -a, so that their sum is zero. an integer is either positive, negative, or zero. if it is positive than its additive inverse is negative, and vice versa. if S is a nonempty subset of the positive integers, then there exists l, the lowest element of l. (this last one is called the well ordered principle and will allow you to rigourously argue inductive, if you choose.)
| means divides. a|b is the same as there exists a k such that a*k=b. if k is a positive integer and k|p imply that k=1 or p, then p is a prime. a < b if and only if b+(-a) is a positive integer.
these statements are to be proved or disproved. if you choose tp disprove, try to salvage the statement to make it true.
p1. a|a for every a in Z
p2. if a|b then b|a for all a and b in Z
p3. if a,b,c are in Z and a|b and a|c then a|(a+b)
p4. if a,b,c are in Z and a|b and b|c then a|c
p5. if a,b,c are in Z and a|b then a|b*c
p6. if a,b,c are in Z and a|b*c then a|b or a|c
p7. p is a postive integer then 2^p -1 is a prime
p8. if a and b are positive integers and a|b then a =< b
if anyone has any questions, post them or email me. if people wish to post answers, mark them as spoilers. even if these are mainly to get a feel for manipulating axioms, there will be future problems that people should work through on their own. i am guessing a week per set would be a good time frame. there are thirty sets. some get very hard.
scott
scott,
Do mind altering drugs help in solving these problems? I believe I'm way too old to even get through reading this without the aid of some and it has been years since I even knew where to get them or remember what they were like. Now that is a sign of middle age!
Regards,
Rick
P.S. I think you slipped up and used a cap in your post.
I think by "Other Topics", they mean other GAMBLING related topics. There must be math postboards somewhere on the World Wide Web.
Since when did the Exchange Forum become the "Look How Smart scott Thinks He Is Forum"?
and what happened to "wrong forum man. wrong forum man"? that was cool.
scott
boring rambles about my life and interests and , yet the wrong forum guy never bothers me. Well, thats probably a good sign, but its not as though this number theory post is taking away from any serious discussion is it!
blah blah blah blah
i love you sweeeeeeeeeatttttshirt red hoooded swweeeeaatttshirt shabadaba ding dong sweeeeeeeeeeeeeatshirt boop boop shoop booop sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatshirt
I love you SOOOOOOOOOLooooooooooo
happy holidays everyone
alex
Your posts add NOTHING to this site either. AOL has plenty of social club type chat rooms. You don't want to discuss cards, go there. How about Yahoo>Clubs?
Wrong Forum Man stands for truth, justice, and organizational consistency.
And AlexB, you have been wise to avoid my wrath. Your posts definitely belong on the "Other Topics", because most definitely do not constitute poker discussion. Yet, beware of my trusty sidekick -- Dumb Post Dog.
This is nothing against scott in particular, as I have a certain kinship to him, but I've said it before and I'll say it again: Take Stanford Wong's bj21.com site as your example. It has postbusters who regularly delete posts that are off the topic or inappropriate for the site. Because of them, it's a great site for those who want to learn about blackjack.
I highly recommend using the same type of policy on this site.
I am even older than Rick, but I am gonna' try scott's problems. Open your mind up everyone. Ultimately it might help us. It is "other topics" Give it a try. I might even send scott an e-mail and do the home course via my real e-mail. Who knows. I might become smart
Recently, while playing poker at the Horseshoe in Miss, I encountered a situation that got me thinking. Heres what happened: The poker room was running a promotion where each player would fill out tickets, tickets would be placed in a container, and they would grab a random ticket to see who won a certain prize. The prize was a big screen TV or $900. The catch is, you have to be there to win.
My ticket was selected!!-but-I was not there to win the prize! I left two hours earlier. My thinking is that if I hadnt gotten up and left the room, my ticket would not have been selected. The act of leaving the cardroom would have affected the actions, motions, thinking etc. of the person that selected the ticket. Right? Had I stayed, a whole different course of happenings would have taken place- however minor.
Of course when I told people this theory when I returned to the card room they thought I was nuts. What do you think?
If you would have had no further affect on the actions of the ticket puller, and that includes interactions with people who would have interacted with him as well, which includes contact with those people who would have interacted with those that would have interacted with the puller. . ..
aw hell, I'm going back to bed.. . .
shooter
You are without question right. Had you stayed you would have almost certainly not won. Just as had you entered the World Series of Poker (OR EVEN SWEATED ANOTHER PLAYER) Noel Furlong would have almost certainly not won.
Staubach,
I've often thought of these types of scenarios in the past. It is interesting to sit and think about the small events that effect the future outcome of any given event. Very interesting....
btw david, do you cover this topic in "Fuzzy thinking"?
Staubach,
I've often thought of these types of scenarios in the past. It is interesting to sit and think about the small events that effect the future outcome of any given event. Very interesting....
Even had you stayed I beleive you still would have won, because the act of you leaving had no bearing on the actions of the guy who pulled the ticket.
As for Sklansky's theory that Furlong probably wouldnt have won the WSOP had you or one other person been added to the event, I feel that yes, that defimitely would effect the entire outcome of the tournament.
Thats why if for some reason I get moved to another seat in a ring game or decide to change seats (which I never do anyway), I dont get upset if my previous seat gets hot becuase the whole outlay of the cards would be completely different had I stayed in that seat.
So, unless you were going to put your ticket in the containerat a different time than you did had you stayed, I believe you would have indeed still won because your exit didnt effect the actions of the guy that pulled the ticket.
Gambler
Actually, I think I did have an affect on the idividual that pulled the ticket. This doesnt help too much though, I still feel like I blew $900.
Thanks for your responses.
and where would you be David if i didnt get briefly introduced to you in the 1960's while crossing the street in teaneck n.j. or maybe if Eddie-- oh never mind.
Ray, were you both from Teaneck?
I was born and raised there myself.
Danny S
Uh oh! I just sneezed. LOOK OUT FOR THAT BUS! Too late.
From a movie "Enemy of the State":
"You are either very smart or incredibly stupid!"
No offense intended.
I don't subscribe to the "If a butterfly sneezes in Brazil, it causes an avalanche in Tibet" theory.
I forgot to post this via my secret identity. Sorry, its like when Superman goes to the grocery store without changing to Clark Kent. My apologies.
The next time you are not in the woods listen to hear if a tree falls! I've always wondered about that.
Vince.
No, it's if a man speaks in a forest and there is no woman to hear him ... Is he still wrong?
(01) Number of Millionaires
1900: 3,000
2000: 3.5 million
(02) Dow Jones Industrial Average
1900: 68.13
2000: 11,000
(03) Beer Consumption
1900: 59 gallons per adult
2000: 31.6
(04) Cigarettes Produced
1900: 4 billion
2000: 720 billion
(05) Average Number of People Per Household
1900: 4.75
2000: 2.62
(06) Price of a Stamp(in 1999 dollars)
1900: 59 cents
2000: 33 cents
(07) Miles of Paved Roads
1900: Ten
2000: 4 billion
(08) Life Expectancy for Men & Women
1900: Men 46.3 Women 48.3
2000: Men 73.6 Women 79.7
(09) Highway Fatalities(per 100 million miles)
1900: 36
2000: 1.64!
(10) Deaths in Childbirth
1900: 9 per thousand
2000: .1 per thousand
(11) U.S. Population
1900: 76 million
2000: 273 million
(12) Average Workweek
1900: 60 hours
2000: 44
(13) Los Angeles Population
1900: 102 thousand
2000: 3.8 million
(14) Voter Turnout
1900: 74%
2000: 49%
(15) Number of Fags
1900: 2
2000: 20 million
(16) Number of Crossdressing Men
1900: 2
2000: 100,001(including Lady Gambler)
(17) Number Of Suckers Born Every minute
1900: 1
2000: 1
(18) Number of Bored People able to make their way through this entire list?
Marry X-Mass,
i told you there was no message now dont you feel stupid for opening this post.
i have been writing messages in n/t posts for weeeks!! why must you steal other people's jokes?
scott
a dead dog.
after all, he resents your insensitivity towards his relationship with his elves.
alex
Do you know of anybody who gives personal hold'em lessons in the L.A. or Orange County area? How much?
Don M.
Buy 2+2 books and then play a lot,if you have question post it here that should be enough.
I think Sklansly, but not cheap. Maybe Rick Nebiolo, but I'm noy 100% sure.
Don M.
Karl - Thank's for mentioning me. I didn't read the thread until just now.
Anyway, I only have time for one student for the time being. If it works out I may try to do something in this area in a year or so when I should have more free time. But I agree with ronzoni that an awful lot can be learned by reading the right stuff and participating in the forum.
I do think online practice with the right coach on one of the various Internet poker sights can really accelerate the learning process. This can't be done in a casino or card club since no one will tolerate a coach sitting behind and discussing the hands as they unfold.
I would probably charge about 1.5 times whatever I'm making in my regular job since it would be overtime for me. But you can bet it would be a lot less than $200 an hour :-).
Regards,
Rick
"I would probably charge about 1.5 times whatever I'm making in my regular job "
Rick,
What a rip off. I bet that comes to over $6.00/hr!
Vince.
Vince,
That seems like a fair price to me. You don't have to be a superstar to make more than minimum wage. Plus I deserve to eat meatballs with my linguini.
Regards,
Rick
yea and dont pay Rick in advance as he always runs off in a hurry. i do hear he gives 15% off if you are a cute girl.
Dick in Phoenix was kind eneough to do the gallery and now he only has 5 pics. I'd like to put a face to the posts and even if Vinny don't look like Sean Connery (old and bald) I'd like to see what he looks like.
BTW - scott looks eneough like my boy Nick to be his (younger brother or older) brother Nick is 19 and a math wizz too. Nick is a Fr. at Purdue computer science major.
Come on that means YOU Lady Gambler!!!!!
I'm gonna start packing my digital so I can snap pics of you guys and post them myself. :-)
There is a good picture of Badger on page 6 of the December 17-30th issue of Poker Digest. The one with the 3 snowmen on the cover.
KGB
Thanx, KBG, for the pointer. However, I do not intend to publish anyone's picture unless they personally give me permission.
Badger - just zip me an e-mail if you would like me to snag this picture of you and use it. An on-line pointer address would be best, of course.
I believe that many players are going to want to remain anonymous. A good example would be anyone who also plays Blackjack seriously.
Again, happy holidays and Send 'Em In.
Dick
Post deleted at author's request.
Got it, Badger. I am guesting on another computer and may take a while to get it up on the page.
Dick
I'm waiting for Lady Gambler too.
Dick wrote:
"... Dick
I'm waiting for Lady Gambler too. "
So Dick in Phoenix (unless you are in Mass. now then you are "Dick in Massachusetts") when did you start talking to your "Johnson?" I think Mason has carried this penis thing to far. Everyone seems to be fixated on the little (in my case) guy.
Vince.
I have to admit I was pleasantly surprised. Rounder is always downplaying his looks, like he's hideous or something. Far from it! scott's cute too, but a little out of focus. Is that for our benefit scott? Just kidding.
Connie
i just don't want paul feeney to try to kill me.
scott
Gee,
I thought that in the long run the odds were favorable for Rounder not to be a dog!
On a scale from 0 to 4: I give'Man on the Moon' a
Rating of: 2 1/2
Here are a couple of problems I had with the new Jim Carrey flick.
(1)My inability to suspend disbelief: I just couldn't forget Jim Carrey was Jim Carrey, as opposed to let's say, Faye Dunaway in Mommie Dearest, who I had no problem forgetting who she really was. I think Jim nails Kaufman's voice for the most part, but I just couldn't lose myself in his character.
(2)Danny DeVito as Andy Kaufman's agent: I love so many of his movies, I just think it was a mistake to cast him in this part. It created a conflict for me since DiVito was Andy's co-star on the sitcom Taxi.
For example, Carrey's character interacted with many of the actual Taxi cast members in bunch of quick scene clips. But when Jim grabs Louie's cage, they only show a close-up of Jim, and we(the movie goer)have to infer Andy Kaufman is doing a scene with DiVito's character Louie. This screwed with my ability to suspend disbelief, that--and the funeral scene, where DiVito is sitting fairly close to the actual Taxi cast members, reminding me of DiVito's duel role.
(3)Having the actual Taxi cast members: These people are twenty years older(and look twenty years older) than the characters they are supposed to be portraying, which--once again, reminds me I'm watching a movie.
There is one other thing I had a problem with, but it basically applies to any movie that's not great, so I won't waste anymore of your time.
I really wanted to love this movie, and was fairly anxious to see it because of the many favorable reviews, but I just didn't--Bummer. Somebody I know said,"Maybe it's just one of those movies you have to see a few times before it clicks with you". I hope he's right, but I'm definitely not going to rent it at the video store, I'll wait 'til it comes to HBO.
Marry X-Mas, Martin
Thank you very much!
I didn't like Kaufman much and I hate the Carrey character whatever role he has. I am an avid movie goer - besides Poker & golf that is the only other thing I really do regurally.
I won't be wasting my time with this one I may rent it when it is in the cheap rental section of the video shop.
I saw this movie last night with my son and his girl friend. My comment: I wish I had seen The Green Mile instead.
Vince.
I think that this is a good time for me to disengage somewhat and return to my "lurk only" mode. I know that I listen better when I'm not distracted by trying to think up something clever in reply. I'm thankful to all the contributors that open their mind's windows to let me peer in. Good poker begins with good thinking, and there are some very capable thinkers here. I feel a special closeness with many posters on these forums, both those I've met and know, and those I've only read and responded to. I hope to benefit for a long time to come from the information and ideas discussed here. If the 2+2 Forum grows in the next year like it did in this one, I know it will be the dominant place for poker discussion. I wish everyone a happy Holiday season.
Big John
i will miss your posts. feel free to interject any thought that just happens to pop into your head. no pressure, of course. happy holidays.
scott
Big John,
We will really miss you. You have a lot of style and are a great wit and writer. Now that we have met, I hope we can hook up now and then. Good luck in the new year and best wishes. And my student and I will give big bet poker a bit of a play now and then. You and Rounder will be our mentors we hope.
Regards,
Rick & Ester
John,
I'm back in Arizona on Jan. 5th I'll give you a call then. There are a few things I want to discuss.
Have a great holiday season.
Mike
John,
I, and many others I'm sure, would be very grateful if you could chip in whenever you can in the tournament forum. I have found your advice _invaluable_ over the last year or so.
Thanks,
Andy.
see ya ol buddy. whatja make a new years res. to quit. or are you going to arizona to take rounder off at the golf course. i hear he is an easy mark. cant make a 4 foot putt. happy holidays
Ray,
4ft are you kidding - that would be considered a long one for me.
:-)
If it weren't for my really bad putter I coulda been on the tour.
I'm sure rz will have the mariachi band standing by for your return. I will miss your posts.
SammyB
Three guys go to this hotel and ask for a room at the front desk. Clerk says the room is $30 or $10 per man each guy gives the clerk a $10 bill.
A while later the clerk realizes he over charged the guys for the room as it should cost $25 not $30 and gives the bell hop 5 singles to return to the 3 men. On the way up to the room the bell hop says to himself these guys didn't tip me so I'll just keep $2 and give them $1 back each.
The bell hop gets to the room and returns the $3 to the men.
Now how much did each guy pay for the room. $10 minus the $1 returned by the bel hop = $9 each.
3 x 9 = $27 how much did the bell hop keep $2
$27 + $2 = $29
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MISSING $1?????
The bellhops 2 came out of the 27.
There was 30 they got back 3 leaving 27
The bell hop kept 2 and the hotel got 25?
What problem?
If we regulars at the twoplustwo.com forum were to make our own version of A Christmas Carol, who should play Scrooge?
The guy who says he looks like Sean Connery or is it Sean Conman? Just kidding.
X-Men?
Well, I think first things first. Mason Malmuth would have to be that funny brain who flew around in that robotic suit, but wasn't that Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?
Anyhow, moving on. Davey would have to be Professor X, although he would have to shave his head and learn how to drive. Also, he would have to set aside his proclivity towards math for a little bit, and get ready to focus his life on ass-whompings, serious ass-whompings.
Rounder or something something silberstang, mediocre poker writer would have to be cyclops, because both wear sunglasses that could block in laser beams.
scott would have to be wolverine, because both have some serious beserker fury. Scott's of course has a bio-chemical triggering that simply requires one or two drinks.
Mark would have to be beast. Sorry mark, but you're who I thought of.
But, Niels, Niels would have to be a character with book smarts, so I immediately thought of Beast again! In the end, I decided that all scenes involving Beast being ugly, Mark could play, and all scenes involving Beast being smart, Niels could play. Also, Niels could play all the scenes where Beast chases bearded women.
Now, the Feeney's. John could play someone with guns to make him happy (i'm thinking Cable), but as for the cocaine habit, all I can tell him is that the film with put him in cocaine and handguns for the rest of his life.
Paul, now Paul would have to play a pure lunatic who doesn't speak english too well. The solution! Mr. Sinister. Both for the name and for the purpose, Paul is a perfect fit.
Now me, I'd play Gambit, because he's real cool.
The girls aren't too interesting because I'm not too interested in the Lady Gambler character or the Melissa who assaulted me. BUT, I'm willing to give out parts to the first crazy eccentric women who start posting. Stop feeling confined to discussions about whether you are women, and start posting about whether or not you like French people. Oh wait, Scott told me about a crazy woman who wanted Ray Zee's baby. She can be a character, if her name ever comes up.
alex
BB,
Private lessons in your area I'd be suspicious if I were you????? It's on OPG why don't you offer your services!!!!!!!
Mr. S as in Smile:)
ps: I assume my package didn't arrive yet!!!!!!
I have a question about the digestify feature. I just "digestified" the entire other topics forum (yes it it was a big waste of time but I read every post anyway)because I wanted to see what was going on over here.
I love the feature but the main problem I have with it is when you get down into a long thread the posts become one word lines that read like this:
Iam
not
a
individual
because
my
measurements
are
bigger
your
measurements.
You get the idea. Can anything be done about that? Thanx.
The sideways smiley face that is, which is becoming popular to use.
SATAN!!
scott
A long time ago. Feel free to use him whenever you like.
-Brad
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As I now have learned, Canada doesn't tax poker winnings. Neither does England, come to think of it. So who's got the communist government now? :):)
Merry Christmas & Happy New Year, all. But I still ain't tokin' if I hit a jackpot...
Due primarily to my job, I get severely chapped hands(insert joke here). So one of my cousins gave me a tin of ointment called, of all things, Badger Balm!(esp. funny b'cause she's the most anti-poker of all my relatives)
From the back of the tin: "With enough Badger, I could plug the cracks in the Grand Canyon!"-Paul Bunyan (or in Sklansky's low-limit knowledge...) :)
From the box: "The Badger, who wore a long dressing gown, and whose slippers were indeed very down-at-heel, carried a flat candlestick(or beer?) in his paw and had probably been on his way to bed(still had that cold?) when their summons sounded(i.e. new post on 2+2). He looked kindly down on them and patted both(Sklansky & Feeney?) their heads. "This is not the sort of night for small animals to be out"(nor small bankrolls to be in a 6-12 game), he said paternally..."-The Wind in the Willows
..My picture's on it's way to Dick in Phoenix. I hope to see everybody at the Commerce 2/5 - 2/12. Any ya'll know where a good sushi restaurant is near C.C.?
For example, does it sound like see-uh-phone-ay, or maybe chee-uh-phone?
-Pete
Cha-PHONE-eee, just like it's spelled.
Good poker players have names that are hard to pronounce. (The reason is related to teasing in childhood.) The same is true for the best poker writers. (Keep in mind that Zee is just his initial.)
For those interested Zee's real name is:
Z-kl;jdfojejlkl'bnkl'krtfg;q'oupopughoqwryh-smith-jones
am i to then infer from the 3 hyphens in z's name that both his grandmothers were ardent feminists? ray is not a young man. so you claim that there were two feminists alive during dark ages. and that their children just happened to get married to each other. this seems highly unlikely. i think you're pulling my leg. and if this is the case, i fear that i can never trust you again.
scott
"from the 3 hyphens in z's name "
There are only 2 hyphens in Z's maiden name. The third hyphen was added upon his last Montana mating outing. This makes your conclusion invalid. In fact there was one feminist during the dark ages of Z's birth. Her name was "Zeelamander, kl;jdfojejlkl'bnkl'krtfg;q'oupopughoqwryh". She married (they called mating marriage back then, that's where Z gets it from) Indiana "Bear Man" Smith. Z was named after her. He's a feminist too you know. He wears a bikini "bear bathing suit" in the summer months in her honor. The briefs are real furry. I believe it is what turns Brenda on. She thinks it's his real hair. BTW - Ray is a young man in "Bear" years. 10 human years is 1 "Montana" bear year. It's all that sleeping that keeps them young. Funny thing though, Ray thought dad said distillation instead of hibernation and he's been a wide awake drinker ever since.
Vince.
Clow-ti-air?
Thanks,
Clow (rhymes with cow), tee, ay (rhymes with say)
Sammy,
I would almost swear that I heard Tom McEvoy pronounce T.J. Cloutier [Clue, like blue, and not Clow which rhymes with cow],and then the rest of the name like you described in your post. I heard him say it at Poker World during a recent recorded interview. I'm not 100% sure though.
-Danny
It's quite possible Cloooo tee ay is correct. I've personally never heard it pronounced. We need help from bayou country.
Post deleted at author's request.
Can someone tell me what happened to Stu Unger?, I was watching the 97' WSOP last night and was reminded that I did not know. I believe he passed away earlier this year. Thanks in advance.
I understand he died of a drug OD in 1998 - must have been celebrating his 1997 win for too long. I saw the WSOP tape too and thought he was f---ed up big time. Too bad he must have been one of the greats.
Damn drugs and weak people - a bad combo.
Here is a link for more than you wanted to know.
http://www.gocee.com/poker/stu_ungar.htm
He died about one year ago. He was supposed to play in the 1998 WSOP but was too screwed up to get from his hotel room to the tourney. He paid his entry fee, but was the only "no show"
Rounder,
"Damn drugs and weak people - a bad combo."
Addiction to drugs, alcohol, gambling, sex, etc. are a disease that have to be treated, just as you would treat someone with diabetes. Would you call someone with diabetes "weak"?? I don't think so, so don't call people with these diseases weak. To recover from these diseases takes more strength than you could imagine.
paul
Paul - I din't mean to cast a bad light on Mr. Unger but it is not like Diabetis at all.
These are diseases of weakness like smoking I quit a 4 pack a day habit, I quit a serious drinking problem on my own. So don't tell me how hard it is to quit something addictive I KNOW!!!
It takes strangth of character and less people making excuses for their deviate behavior.
We are responsible for our actions. If more people took responsibility for their own actions it would be a better world in deed.
I'm with you on this one, Rounder. Throwing around the word "disease" is new-age, liberal hogwash designed to undermine the notion of personal responsibility in favor of an expanded sphere of government intervention. Beware the socialist conspiracy. A propaganda attack on the language is the first step.
Here is a list of vices that were (in the past year) referred to as potentially being caused by "diseases" according to "credible" members of the scientific community in prominent liberal newspapers like the New York Times and Washington Post.
1. Drug use 2. Alcoholism 3. Gambling 4. Pedophilia 5. Violence, up to and including murder 6. Stealing 7. Starving oneself to death 8. Starving one's own child to death 9. Poisoning one's own child over several years 10. Murdering a newborn 11. Mutilating your spouse (only for women on men, though, never when man beats woman) 12. Defending Bill Clinton, despite the facts
OK, I made the last on up, but you get the idea.
Michael 7, I had trouble determining whether you were being joking in your post about liberal socialist conspiracies being responsible for the increase in government intervention.
Well, Alcoholism has genetic and disease like qualities. No questions asked, it is beyond speculation, truth. Drug abuse has shown similar early findings, and gambling studies are much more difficult to do.
My point is that you shouldn't shrug off these studies just because they are written in prava (or was it prada, the main newspaper of the USSR). Anyhow. It is new-age because it was discovered recently.
I'm inclined to believe that you don't like government intervention. Neither do I, and I think that the majority of drugs should be legalized. But, the scientific studies are truthful.
as for the last couple of things. I think no one pretends to know what leads men to murder. But scientific studies that try to find out shouldn't be announced as hogwash.
But, maybe you are right, Galileo was trying to prove helicentricity in order to pay off gambling debts to the northern italian hebrew community to help their desire to destabilize the Catholic Church.
Wait a minute, no he wasn't! but, you should add that point to your argument to create a historical precedent.
alex
Alex,
It's scaring me but I agree with you. I must be in recovery that's my only explanation for such a predicament. Diseased people cannot quit on their own, and it's not liberalized thinking, it's Y2K thinking. Thinking everyone can just stop doing certain things because they want to is 1950 thinking. Maybe that will be the greatest thing of the next millenium to free people from addictions and to show each other that we don't need them to live a happy life.
paul under much stress in this hollowed out tree
I came up with a good way, at least in theory, to decide whether someone's problem, be it drugs, alchohol, or overeating is a forgivable disease or a less forgiveable weakness.
What would they do if you gave them a lot of money to stop for a year? If they would do it for money, then it is reasonable to assume it is a weakness when they do not do it for free.
Normally of course there is no way to really conduct this test. But I know of two cases. One guy lost 60 lbs. when he had a $10,000 bet on the line. He gained it back. Now he claims that his not being able to lose it back is a disease rather than a weakness. His is one of the few times where the excuse can easily be refuted. On the other hand we have Stu Ungar. A man who gave up a freeroll that could have easily made him hundreds of thousands. He gave it up for a few drugs that morning. If his problem (by the time it had gotten to this stage anyway) was not a disease, I don't know what is.
David,
I believe Drug addiction (any addiction for that matter) is a lot more complicated and serious than you imply with your post!
vince.
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"Unger was our Mike Tyson. "
What? Did he bite Brunson? No wonder Brunson hasn't one the big one in a long time. Thanks for the info Badger. BTW - "Unger died a fool." is a little harsh from someone that may not have fully understood the circumstances. Since I don't claim to know the circumstances surrounding Ungar's death I can only conclude that you have all the facts and thus your comment. Thanks again.
vince.
"weakness vs 'beyond your control' you would have agreed with me?
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Badger,
Your point is that addiction is not a disease. O.K Maybe. But to treat addiction as less than a disease, IMO, is a mistake.
Vince
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Somebody being thrown off a cliff and somebody jumping off a cliff should not be approached in the same way.
I wouldn't approach them at all. They could land on you.
"To treat an alcohol abuser or drug abuser in the same way as you would treat someone with "boy in the bubble" immune deficiencies or sickle cell anemia or even diabetes (which does have many cases where simple diet and exercise improve the condition a lot) is just a poor way to approach an issue."
This is simply a misrepresentation of the point I am trying to make. I said to "treat an addiction as less than a disease is a mistake". That does not mean one should treat drug abuse the same as a disease. It means that drug addiction is a very serious health problem not to mention it's adverse effects on society as a whole. Drug addiction cannot be viewed as simply a weakness of the person addicted. It is a serious condition requiring competent, trained and experienced professionals to aid the addicted in combating his condition. You and others seem to want to brush drug addiction under the rug of "personal weakness". IMO, it is just not that simple.
Vince.
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If your body is disposed to be fat, it loses the fat with great difficulty but gains it back with great ease. Whereas anybody can lose fat by reducing his calorie intake below his calorie expenditure, this is much harder for a fat person to do than a thin person -- for a host of reasons. It therefore takes a much larger strength of will for a naturally fat person to lose weight then a naturally normal weight person. Some people who are naturally skinny (ectomorphs) can lose fat without any act of will at all.
but relevant to the entire occupation that the majority of professional poker players.
Leaving aside drinking and drug abuse. Let us follow from them to a similarly addictive phenomena, "gambling". Now, if we follow from the assumption that gambling is a disease (an entirely plausible assumption, however one that to date lacks the credibility of the advocates of bio-chemical aspects of alcoholism and drug abuse)
Now, if gambling is a disease rather than a weakness of character, the profession of poker player is in effect taking away money from people who are unable to control their behavior or thinking. The same as scamming alzheimer's patients out of their money because of their demetia.
Now, of course this is not the case. No one says that the alcohol industry should be blamed for alchoholics, just as professional poker players should be blamed for addicted gamblers. Professional poker players aren't creating the problem (a la cigarette industry).
But all I'm saying is that perhaps poker players should realize that perhaps the suckers whose money they take at the tables should not be scorned as fuzzy thinkers. Perhaps they should be pitied.
Nobody get mad at me please, this is not a