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No sports betting, except in Las Vegas. Have the casino businesses scrutinized by commissions, boards, and the police. Establish all kinds of regulations and rules for casino patrons. Let the casinos change the rules on Blackjack, at whim. Then, TELL US THAT DAY TRADING IS AN "INVESTMENT" "BUSINESS"!! SHEER INSANITY! (You are not expected to understand this, I am venting.)
RF,
This is a good place to vent. Did you try it or did you get clobbered or both? People in the investment community might say that day traders provide liquidity.
Tom Haley
How many investment schemes are going to begin by telling you that you are probably going to lose significant capital before you start profiting??? Thats what I saw in a day trading bit of literature! The thing is that if this were true, then dont you think the day traders would be held back from making trades until they proved they could make money? Of course not, they are a broker and information service godsend and day trading is not just for liquidity purposes, its industry-wide profits.
It's too bad that the daytrader who just recently killed 12 people(including his wife and two kids) in Atlanta because of day trading losses didn't know about this forum. Lives may have been saved had he vented out his anger here instead of shooting all those innocent people. I feel very sad for those who love them. Anyone in the risk taking profession (poker player, pro gambler, speculator, investor,etc.) must take responsibility for his actions and results instead of blaming dealers, floormen, the government, brokers, God, "them", etc.
"Gambling", "day trading", or whatever, had nothing to do with those murders. The perpetrator was a sociopathic killer, who killed his own mother and wife five years ago.
It seems to me that anyone who can be a successful day trader could make much more money position trading, but I am thankful for day traders because they have made it much more difficult for market makers to screw option traders
Just curious:
I may have read this in a 2+2 book, but it also is common sense:
If you are investing/gambling, and you are doing so to profit (not for fun), you should have some specific idea that you can be very sure about as to the origin of your "edge". If you play blackjack, it's pretty easy with books or simulations to get an idea of this, if you play poker, you can study, have experience, and see that others in your game are making fundamental mistakes, or are easy to read, are drunk, etc...
Where does the edge come from for the day traders? It seems some of them are successful, but this is expected as there is a (likely) normal distribution of their results (even though an individual's results are not necessarily normal). Is it a superior knowledge of the "game" (as a poker player or sports bettor may have)? But if this is so, aren't the market prices determined by true expert fund managers and big players? How is the lowly day trader to assume his knowledge is superior to those with so many more resources at their disposal?
One hears of day traders making big $ in the stock market, but aren't lots of people? What happens when the markets stop soaring - will this be the big rake increase, or the hitting soft 17, that dries up the "game".
Any insight appreciated.
From what I gather, day traders are trying to play on the market's psychology on the whole. Markets tend to react certain ways for certain stocks. The theory does work in a way because information is controlled in such a way that reaction can be somewhat predictable. The problem seems that people don't seem to limit themselves to this. It would kinda be like poker in that you know if you just wait for good starters and play in soft games you will win some money, but you want to win more so you try to add profit with weaker hands until you eventually give all of it back and then some. My guess is that most of the really wealthy people in day trading didnt get it from the trading, but from selling services and books...
Nah Wild Bill,
They get it by being able to afford seats on the exchange and playing against the average investor. :-)
They're names? Meryll Lynch, Goldman Sachs, Smith Barney...he he!
It's called the bid/ask spread.
:-)
Oh yes, and there is money is selling picks and shovels to prospectors too....
;-)
Dan,
I've done a little investigating on Day Trading. It used to be something that only floor traders could really do profitably...the shortest term version of it being called "scalping" (moving large blocks of stock for a tick or two profit and getting out...sometimes in seconds).
The edge of the floor trader came two ways (at least). Low cost of execution...like a dollar a trade, regardless of size, and time advantage (speed of execution and speed of seeing what all the other traders are doing vis a vis the information flow).
When computer trading became available some put out the idea that this lessened the edge the floor folks had. And assuming you use Instinet or Island (not E-TRADE for example)...it does to some extent. But authors that speak truthfully will tell you the floor still has the edge and thus reccomend momentum trading and will state that scalping from your living room may not be possible.
There are those who claim there are ways to catch up to the floor...but I'm not sure yet. Over in Germany a purely computer run floor with no live specialists is being tried out. If that were to catch on you might then have a level playing field. Except that the Wall Street houses would have the money for things like better research and be able to move more stock...affect the market thier way etc. Which is no different than specialists (NYSE) or Market Makers (NASDAQ) do now.
What many don't realize is that the major houses make thier profits by trading against thier own customers! So in a sense day trading neophytes represent "liquidity" (or sucker money) to trade against.
It is possible to do it...but I speculate it isn't easy!
The example that burns me up is Barbara Striesand. Sure she turned 1 million into 1.8 million. But don't you think if you were a media figure and walked into Instinet and said I have a million to trade with...they'd make every effort to show you the ropes?
Try that with no celebrity status and an average opening account. Hmmm, can you say Sucker Money? Many authors of the subject say..."Oh, you'll probably lose xx dollars before you get the hang of it". Sound like poker? Some of the authors have schools...Well if they've figured it out, should they be keeping me from loosing xx?
Make no bones about it, the Elite MBA's of the world are playing poker in the trading pits with the world economy.
Whether that's right or wrong is your judgement call. But it affects us all.
Personally I think it's creating problems. Things that are good for the bottom line are not neccesarily good for people or the planet.
Now let's talk about the Fed trying to keep the economy from overheating. Well, What's that...oh when to many people have work and thus might be able to demand more money from the rich....So the Fed raises interest rates to slow the whole thing down. Hmmm, so that means that a "good econony" is based on cheap labor, right? Good for who? But of course...the players with the big bank rolls who can influence politics and monetary policy.
:-)
P.S. if you were an elite and you were looking down over it all you might see what? Well a middle class that, if it gets richer might be a problem...and an under class that might revolt if it gets too poor. So what to do? Tax the middle and give it to the poor! The middles can't jump the fence, the lowers don't quite want to revolt. Imagine that! Now consider who gets elected, and how and ask yourself about tax policy. :-)
Or as it was summarized in a now classic movie..."You're nothing but a clerk, sent by shop keepers to collect the bill". (I.E. the money owns the gov't the gov't controls the military, the soldier sent to knock off Kurtz was little more than a drone for the big money...and Kurtz was being a bad little boy because he knew too much and personally revolted.)
Even so. America is still #1...and were it not for the nature of man and the world (I.E. if we drop the guard they'll certainly come over here and take over) I'd have a hard time condoning it. However, we currently have little choice but to hope that slowly people will see to a better way. But as it stands, the entrenched interests run the show.
Well enough for now. USA #1 but the world could use a new way of being altogether. Just can't figure out what it would be.
Dan Z.,
You write:
>>If you are investing/gambling, and you are doing so to profit (not for fun), you should have some specific idea that you can be very sure about as to the origin of your "edge". <<
I agree with you. I am not sure but I would don't believe that a lot of traders can assess their odds of success very accurately. "Scalping" and/or arbitrage involves no risk to minimal risk strategies but I believe this is not what you are alluding to.
Tom Haley
Tom,
I have to agree with you. With all the factors that affect the trading pits' reactions to event what outsider can accurately assess the odds of say...an asian economic crisis on day x?
At least a card deck has a finite sample space.
This is not to say Wall Street doesn't have effective models, but what individual in his living room does?
In any event, more than one author of electronic day trading books states that the market is a large poker game (in those words!).
However, day trading has always existed in the trading pits before electronic day trading and lower execution costs brought it to the attention of the media and general public.
As a reference, take a look at either "The Compleat Day Trader, (Jake Bernstien - who despite his info-mercials is widely respected in the industry) or "The Futures Game, Who Wins, Who Loses, and Why" (Tewels and Jones). Both of these discuss day trading long before it became popular. It just used to be that execution speed and cost where prohibitive for off floor traders to try it.
And since the pits are run by professional traders I have to believe the neophyte is likely to get creamed learning the ropes.
Several top name day trading authors who trade exclusively on-line were actually institutional traders, on-floor, before they were successful with on-line day trading and then writing books about it.
I've done extensive reading on the topic and various forms of analysis etc. and it seems to me it is not a simple nor easy way to profit. It may actually take years to accumulate enough knowledge to know what's going on.
This is not to say some empirical, back tested method, as suggested by tools such as Omega's TradeStation can't work, however knowing why they work of if a back tested, curve fitted algorithm should work in the future is a tricky business, and thus you are back to lots of study.
I speculate that as tough as poker is, day trading from off floor for the average individual is likely to prove even tougher.
Lind-Waldock (Largest Commdities Brokerage) gave some information to the authors of a book I believe was called, "Getting Started in Futures" that indicated 2/3 of the small futures investors lost thier shirts to large investors and professional hedgers.
But then realize, stock was invented to capitalize companies, not make investors rich, and futures contracts were invented to allow commodities producers to hedge against market risk, not to make speculators rich. Thus it would appear that both instruments serve thier designed purposes well, which is essentially to pass risk off to "investors" and "speculators".
Who as you state and I suspect, do not always have a good way to place a numerical estimate of risk, nor a way to calulate EV going for them.
And yet we run our corps. as though the share price is actually something to manage around!
Strikes me as a little...well...nuts.
(Of course the reason that happens is because companies retain stock and executives are given bonuses for stock performance...instead of say...revenue and net profits in the long run.)
:-)
No, those fun arbitrage problems from my finance and securities classes are not what I am taking about -
I don't think these day traders are running excel spreadsheets looking for arbitrage opportunities - and at the % of transaction costs and interest rates they can get, they would likely never see them - not to mention the speed of the big players looking for them would mean that the arbitrage would be gone before the lowly day trader could point and click...
Thanks for the response.
I have to agree. I point blank asked one of these gurus (online) if there was a way to program abitrage searches and act on them...interesting I never got a reply to that question.
But to elaborate a little, yes the big players have that locked up. That is what the "Fair Value" number is about. When the spread between futures and the underlying basket of stocks is "out of line" (profitable) the large arbitragers will sell the future and buy the underlying or visca versa, depending on which way it is "out".
I believe this is where "program trading" comes in (not computer program per se)...that's when a large player starts moving large number of stock across multiple issues (I thing the technical definition is across 15 or more distinct stocks and over some dollar figure).
Somehow I don't see a level playing field.
:-)
I believe that intraday price movements are totally random walk. Therefore, it's impossible for you to make money day trading if you're betting on market direction. You can only make money day trading if you're some kind of scalper or arbitrageur, trading activities that require you to be on the floor (not in front of your home computer paying big commissions that can offset the price discrepancies that you're trying to exploit doing arbitrage and scalping). Position trading is better since a lot of people have been successful doing it. But poker is the best. I believe that an expert poker player with a 50000 bankroll can easily outperform an expert trader with a 400000 bankroll.
Interesting hypothesis (that ROI on poker exceeds day trading).
I'll have to think about it.
In a sense the floor is the poker table. But I'd say the market is more like no-limit as the big players can move as much money as they have available.
I do think the easy availability of Level II etc. has made it easier to do it from home...but I don't think there can be any doubt that the floor is where the rubber meets the road.
Problem is an exchange seat can be very expensive. Last I knew the mid-am commodities exchange was as low as 10,000 but stock exchanges were going for 250K to over a million with private individuals sometimes willing thier seat to an inheritor. Clearly a rich man's game. So what else is new?
An expert poker player with a 50k bankroll will have to play against other expert poker players in order to significantly increase his stake.
An expert stock trader with a 400k bank doesn't necessairly have to play against other experts. (Although they will be there competing.) The stock game is so big and there are so many small players that weakenesses can be exploited just as in poker.
The stock market is definitely NOT random walk.
Technical analysis is the most profitable route to take.
But still, like anything else, it is a game that must be learned and tuition is certainly not free.
I agree that the stock market is not a random walk... in the intermediate term and in the long term. But it probably is random walk in the very short run, especially if the trends that you're betting on are the ones that last a few minutes which is exactly what daytraders do. Regarding ROI: An expert level fulltime professional poker player with a 50K bankroll can easily play 60-120. If he plays 40 hours per week for 50 weeks every year and is able to make 1 small bet an hour, he will have an income of 120,000 per year. To make that much off a 400K bankroll, an expert trader must produce a return of 30% a year...consistently! To my knowledge, only the super legendary traders (Soros, Steindhardt, Robertson, Kovner, Trout) can approach this kind of return consistently. The mere experts make much less. Remember, we comparing an expert poker player and an expert trader here.
Does anyone out there have any old copies of the POKER PLAYER newspaper that they want to get rid of?
I posted an honest question for you about 7-card stud. You have refused to answer my post. You should grow up and be a man for once in your life. To hell with you. 2+2 is a forum for everyone and that includes the right to post opinions. If you don't like it well then change the rules so that opinions are not allowed. You have really dissapointed me by your actions. They are the actions of a coward. For a winning player such as yourself to act this way is unbelievable. I say agail to hell with you. I have apologised. If thats not enough then go stick it.
Joe,
This may be none of my business but since you posted this message here I feel that I have a right to respond.
You are one of the posters that I read. Ray Zee is one of the posters I read. I read both of you for different opinions and because of RESPECT for your opinions.
Posting on the gambling forum or any forum should be in relationship to a gambling or similar subject. If one doesn't choose to post or respond to a post then that is a right that should be respected. Both Sklanky and Malmuth have not responded to some of my direct questions in the past. That is their perogative as it is mine to respond or not to respond. As it is yours and Ray Zee's.
Please try to avoid doing anything that will detract from the quality of your future posts. Personal vendettas as your post here appears to be can not be good for any exchange of ideas.
I request that you end it here and let's move on to a more valuable subject.
Your posting buddy,
Vince.
I have learned more 'not in the book' good stuff from Ray Zee than from Mason or David put together. I fact I am going through the archives looking only at his posts. If they charged to use this service, Ray Zee's posts would be a big factor in deciding whether to pay. But they don't charge. It is not that Mason and David aren't helpful, they approach the forum in a completely different manner, tending to quiz rather than just lay it on the line. So, I am with Vince.
Also the quality of this forum is better the RPG because people keep to the point and don't stray into emotional areas. It feels more professional.
yea joe ,what they said -times infinity-nah,nah,na,nah,nah!
When I posted my response to Vince Lepore I had not read this post by Joe, I could tell by it's title that it was not something I wanted to read. Now I have and can not believe that Joe could feel good about what he said. I suspect he did not use the delete password option. I can get upset and regret saying what I said, and wish I could delete saying those things. I would like this whole thread, except for Vince's, because I do not speak for Vince, to be deleted. I know there is an administrational deletion option. I think it should be used.
I'm with Sally! Delete!
Vince
a
Joe,
I don't think you will get many responses to your posts from now on. Nobody owes you anything. Books are for sale, read them and get what you can out of them.
Tom Haley
Do not ever think about deleting me, chicken shit.
potty mouth
Cussing is under valued. Say Fuck. Say fuck, what?
I am going to New York. Lower East Side. I want to be ready.
Find a rough place. Order a beer. "Say, boys! I bet your momma taught you everything you know about sucking a dick." Take a draught. "If fact, didn't the two of you practice on Dad?" "Well, you had a good teacher, after all, she could suck a turd out of a dogs butt."
Silly asshole with no guts. God is a man to you, I bet. Despite those nipples on you chest.
And just hope I start a fight.
I am currently living in Denver, CO and play in Blackhawk. I have noticed all the holdem games our loose aggressive and tight aggressive. Trying to find a loose passive game here is tough. My question is about the Omaha high-low games in Blackhawk, are they better to play and since the short term luck factor is not as prevalent in Omaha, is this the best game to play in a low limit structure(Colorado has limited gaming 3-5 is the highest limit you can play). P.S. Can somebody recommend a good Omahe high-low book. Thanks, Mark
Mark,
omaha hi lo 8 or better will give you good results against players that are too loose. play towards the nuts every hand and stay out of pots with hands that dont make the nuts easily. look in the archives for some posts on the games you are interested in as the information around here is better than most books. good idea to read some books on poker. you can order some of the best right from this site. good luck.
Hang in there, Ray. Say, Ray. What do you think about when, those cards are not doing so well?
Living a little longer?
I'm looking for a home game in the Tampa/Bradenton/Sarasota area. Any info is greatly appreciated.
Might be able to help you out, need more info....
Ace
I would love more info! I'm looking for Hold 'em or 7-stud. Let me know.
How is the Las Vegas Club for Gambling and the such? Thanks
Zonetrap,
I stayed at the Las Vegas Club when I went down to the WSOP 1999. It was comfortable and close to Binion's. The rates are low and reasonable. I didn't gamble much there because I was playing poker at the Horseshoe. I would stay at the Las Vegas Club again and I would recommend it to friends.
Dice
OK, clean, everyone is friendly. It's not the Ritz, but perfectly acceptable. Ask for the North Tower; it's newer and nicer.
Blackjack is good. They have a 2-deck game with more or less standard Vegas rules, and a 4-deck shoe game with what I think are the best rules in Vegas, including (I may not remember all of these just right) surrender (not early), unlimited splits, double on anything, double after split, and double on any number of cards (i.e. not just on your first 2 cards).
They sent us four free weekends for this year because my wife hit a slot jackpot last year. We went for the first one Memorial Day, and there were truly no strings attached. I am working on the Blackjack pit crew for more comps, and they are very accomodating.
Dick
Their shoe game has a terrible cut and even thoughthey have lots of favorable rules they also hit soft 17.
When I was there last, end of May, the cut was generally placed a little more than half way in, about 60% I would guess.
Yes, they hit soft 17.
I have more than once seen the LV Club listed in books and articles (of course time value is important, and I do not remember specific references) as having the most friendly rules. Mason, do you have some better places in mind? My knowledge of Vegas is very limited, based upon 2 or 3 trips a year at most.
I read with interest Arnold Snyder's CP column in which he suggests that basic strategy should call for surrender holding hard 17 vs. dealer's Ace, and some card counting results should result in hitting. What do the more experienced Blackjack players on the forum think of that? It has the ring of truth to it, but I'm not sure I want to trash all the charts I have collected over the years from Thorpe, Revere, Uston, and other respected authors.
Dick
Was just there at the end of July. BJ pen was poor at about 50%, so I had to pass the game up. However, I did have a good time at ther 25 cent crap table, which incidently is upped to a bankroll shattering $1 min.. A fun, cheap game to check out your play. The waitresses were really sweet, however there was this ancient old fart of boxman on the table who complained with each "hop" a certain winning player was making. He was playing $25 unit and doing ok. Not a bad joint and definitely will be stopping back there soon.
Ray Zee nice guy I teaze a lot. Someday I tell him who I really am. Hope he laugh go ha ha.
Meantime check out movie Prince of the City. One le3ad charicter look lots like Ray Zee. When Ray Zee wuz young and pretty.
Bye.
John,
you have me confused with someone else from your past as i have never met anyone in my life that spells as you do.
And here I thought you TAUHT him!
Vince.
Looking for a game or others looking to start one. Let me know if anyone is interested.
Andy
i will be back in d.c. in september when i go back to school (georgetown)and will be looking for a game. write back then. concannon2001@yahoo.com
Just wondering if any one here, including the brilliant authors of this forum, have every played Texas Hold'em online and what your feelings are about it.
this brilliant author hasnt but some of our posters have and if you look in the archives online poker has been discussed. if you play give us your feedback as we are all interested.
thanks I have no clue how to search the archives - Can you help?
look on the left side under forums click on the archives
you should be accessing this forum from here i think http://www.twoplustwo.com/forum.html
Kelly,
All you do is double click on Archives under Forums and that opens it up for viewing. Then start at the most recent month and double click (DC) on that and just scroll as you would normally, until you find Online Poker and then DC on that and you'll be all set. If you don't find anything on that month Right mouse back and start with next month and so on and so on etc.
Good luck Paul
I'm a beginning poker player, and I set up an account at delta I can't give you any expert advice as to playing but I can tell you about the online cardroom
I live in Atlanta so there's no where close for me to play. Delta doesn't seem to have a lot of players playing when you want to play, maybe during prime time hours after seven O'clock. I have an account at planet poker, and there are people playing there constantly so I stuck with that, however if you put money in planetpoker with debit or credit they charge you 6% (bullshit ripoff) Delta doesn't do that, and to not get charged at planet poker you have to send in a check. A new site is coming up called realpoker and it has hold'em, 7 stud, draw and some others, I'm looking forward to checking that out 'cause the web site isn't completed yet.
As for the players, I see a lot of them at planet poker playing a lot of garbage in the hole, I've only played the 3-6 table, but I've sat in on the 10-20 tables and seen the same going on. They charge a rake to a maximum of 3 bucks, and they make you post a big blind charge to sit down, I haven't actually cashed out yet, so if I do I hope they'll actually send me a check peace out salamander
I've been playing online at planetpoker for about a year now. I've found some very good games and some very tight ones. It's kind of slow, but as of late the games are quite fast and you can usually find a table open, whether it be 3-6, 5-10, or 10-20.
It's not as easy to play tightly on the computer since you don't feel like it's real money sometimes. It's easy to steam.
1. are you ahead
2. how much do you think you can make an hour at the limits
3. what do you like and dislike
I have played a little bit there when I was away from CA for a few weeks and missed the game. The thing I noticed most was that the game really is much slower than a "live" game and that would have to cut down on your expected earnings. Guess not being able to call out to your neighbor to look at his cards has its downfall or maybe it was some of the players had their 2+2 books handy and were looking for help in the hand :) My guess is that if you were to see maybe 35 hands an hour in a live game, you might see 20-25 on planet poker. Only thing is that shuffling isnt as time consuming for obvious reasons. Dumb thing is that I think you can call for a deck change! Didn't see one, but I think I read it in the rules.
The action was pretty lively as I stuck mostly to 5-10 and saw almost every pot reaching the rake cap after the flop bets (the rake is 5%, $3 max). I would think many people were not so serious with their money not only because of the nature of the game being more like a video game, but also because you have to use a credit card to start so its not the same losing $500 there as it would be losing $500 crisp benjamins that could be spent anywhere.
I ended up winning a small amount after playing about 3 hours. After awhile the slow pace of the game starts to get to you. I am sure if I lived away from cardroom land I would frequent the place, but as long as a real game isnt far away, I dont think they are that much of a threat.
thanks any others have stories?
OK I went ahead and tried it. Planetpoker I found busier than Delta, but cold and impersonal. I deposited $200, won $158, so I cashed out my initial investment to be in a win/win situation. Tried Delta next, and found it much more fun and friendly - nice players, nice chat, and softer games. Won much more than my $200 deposited here, once again cashed out the overs. They were not as active as PP, but it was explained to me that they were the new kids on the block. I can easily see how they will grow in size because of their attitude and treatment of players.
Do any of the "big guys" play these sites, like Mason or David? I'd like to hear what they have to say also.
Thank you all for your help on this. If you have any questions on my experience, I would like to return the favor.
Kelly
I've been playing on Planet Poker for awhile and have been keeping records. I've played the great bulk of my time in the $3-$6 game with perhaps 10% in the $5-$10 game. The other game spread is $10-$20, which I haven't played in at all. PP claims they will be starting 7-stud games soon. I've played 229 hours total, and I've won $4.82 per hour. Obviously, I'm not playing for the money.
Unfortunately, I only have about 15 hours of live casino play, so I have a limited basis of comparison. Those 244 hours of total play make up my entire poker experience playing with real people--other than kitchen table stuff for change. I've also played some computer poker--the Turbo products and "World Series of Poker Adventure." In other words, my experience is limited, so take my judgements with a great big rock of salt. (In my favor, I've read all of the 2+2 poker books, except for the new 21st Century editions.)
The PP games used to run fairly slowly, but they have upgraded the software and the games are now much faster. There once was a problem with getting regularly disconnected, but that is mostly solved. The game has a core of regulars who play often. After you play a few sessions, you start to recognize their names. Planet Poker has a rule to prevent the players from changing the handle under which they play; thus, you can get a line on the regulars. You can see who is at the table before you "sit down," so there is some opportunity for game selection.
The friendliness of the game varies with who is playing. Sometimes there is a lot of joking; other times very little is said (typed). Most of the players are polite, but there are a few jerks, who are easy to ignore because the worst they can do is type something nasty. I suggest that anyone who plays take the option of turning off the sound effects, which I find extremely annoying, but that is a matter of taste.
I cashed out some money once, and they sent the check promptly. My impression is that the people who run PP are basically honest. The amount that they charge to buy in with a credit card, however, is high--six percent. The rake is 5% up to $3.
The biggest opportunity for cheating would be collusion. Personally, I've not detected any of this in the small game in which I play, but especially note my inexperience here. I've not seen anyone regularly getting trapped between two raisers very much or much raise, raise, fold, fold type stuff. Cheating may be more worthwhile in the $10-$20 game. To help prevent a person from playing two hands, PP only allows one account per address. Also, you can check the town a person is from before you sit down. If you are concerned about collusion, you can avoid games with two people from the same city.
The typical $3-$6 PP game is passive. There is usually not much raising. Unless a known frequent raiser is yet to act in a game, I will limp in from early position before the flop with Kxs or any pair, and this seems to be profitable. Having a few early limpers seems to inspire the middle and late position players, and they will come in also.
Every game has at least one rock. About half the games have someone who plays very loosely, e.g. any ace or any two suited cards. Once in a while, there is a loose-aggressive player, but they don't seem to last for long. Every game appears to have several people who _do_ pay attention to what is going on. Sometimes the games get very tight, with no one calling the big blind a couple of times per round.
I would say about four or five people--including the blinds--typically see the flop. However, as I stated above, if a couple of people enter the pot from an early position, you often see six to eight take a look.
After the flop, the game tightens up. I would say two or three people typically see the turn and the river if there is a bet on the flop--frequently there isn't. I often semi-bluff on the flop, and I believe I'm making a net profit with this play.
I've occasionally read a post on this forum in which someone inquires about a computer program to practice against. Planet Poker is much better practice than programs like the Turbo products. Real people play differently from computer simulations, no matter how well the program is done.
Planet Poker's big advantage is that you can play whenever you want. If you live a long way from a casino and don't know of any (or don't trust) private games, it may be your only chance to play regularly, and if you suffer from insomnia, you can usually find a game at all hours.
Bill C.
Your appraisal of the games, possible cheating, and most other factors seem about right on. My poker student has an account and she, my friend (a Los Angeles 15/30 20/40 pro), and I all play in various combinations. We have done about as well as one would expect in the ring games, which is about 70% of what you would do in the equivalent live game, mostly due to hand speed.
It is a great teaching tool. Another friend back east taught his girlfriend to play quite well using PP. She is not the bookish type but found sitting next to a pro and listening to his logic helped her a lot. Now she wins on her own on PP and in the casino.
My student, who is working her way thru S&M&Z, is now learning holdem after improving dramatically at Omaha. Since she can sit beside me or us and play, we can discuss what we do and why (of course, sometimes my friend and I have different approaches - including one hand posted on the forum).
Anyway, I like it better than Turbo for teaching, which I still can't get to play like a real game (although I think I could if I spent more time on the profiles). One problem on PP is that there are a lot of players and you have to keep notes (I use a folder with a notepad file for each player - but I only bother at 10/20). In a LA ring game, I can often size up a player I haven't seen much very quickly based on appearance and manner, and be close to right most of the time. It has hard to make the association on PP, since you just have the screen name to identify a player.
There are some horror stories. One time just after we started playing, my friend, who is on Mouse 101 computer wise, made a thin call on the end and ended up with the best hand. He gets up from the chair and gives a victory salute and goes to the fridge. Since we had called, we had to enter FOLD or SHOW in order to claim the hand. I'm sitting a few feet behind and after a few seconds sort of realize what was happening. Unfortunately, I trip lunging for the mouse (I don't want to time out causing an all-in), and accidentally enter FOLD. Bye bye $350.
You do get disconnects sometimes and you are protected somewhat (if you have money in the pot) by going all-in but this can only happen twice a day. When you haven't called yet it can be frustrating to see an AA be cut off from the action. The situation with disconnects appears to be getting better with new software.
We also had a hand when we won and were showing down when the whole system crashed. They lost the record of the account but on good faith credited out account $172 when we recounted the action exactly.
I definitely think the stories about cheating on rgp are exaggerated or sour grapes (although many there defended PP). Still, with the availability of online chat (apart from PP's chat available to everybody), you have to worry a little. We did get beaten recently in some short-handed games where we thought we had way the best of it. This was the only time you will see a lot of jamming. Otherwise, the games are medium loose and a little passive.
I already spend too much time in front of the computer and when by myself use it mostly to help me get back to sleep when I am not using it for lessons (I have major insomnia problems). Other than using it as a teaching tool, I don't see it replacing casino or home game play but it is a nice supplement at the lower levels now and then.
Hope this helps,
Rick
Hello all,
I am heading to Reno this weekend and I was wondering where's the best place to play 7-stud and Hold'em. I am looking at 4-8 to 10-20 limits. Also, in general what is the quality of the games? Loose? Passive? or it just varies with the time of day and weather?
Thanks in advance,
carlos
To Scroll Down Might Help
Paul
Thanks. I found it! I vaguely remember a discussion on the places to play in Reno, but I missed it while scrolling down and just thought it was not on the current threads.
carlos
you can also find good stuff in the archives.
The Pepper Mill has a good 10-20 game. Starts every day about 11am. "Hot Aug Nights"in Reno This wk. Huge crowds and classic cars.
Two weeks ago, Vince left LV on a cross country road trip. When last heard from, he was losing big at 2-8 Omaha in Mesquite Nv.
Vince,buddy---where are you? Tell us some stories. Did you make it to Chicago? How about Council Bluffs?
Seems to me someone else owes us a story: A trip report on the tournament in Tunica. I' very interested in the side action and the payouts. Also what limits are there normally in Tunica?
Brett
Tunica report is "coming right up".
Try to be a little more patient. You Las Vegas players are so cranky.
How would you lke to play in a game with Roy, Mason, Cissy, Abdul, Daniel, Melissa, Chris, etc.? You'd be cranky too.
Brett
Hey! What happened in Tunica? How were the tourneys?
I will be in Vegas in two weeks for a couple of days and wonder where several good games of Hold'em are played. Jeff
Hi Jeff,
When I go to Las Vegas, I like the Luxor 4-8 Holdem, at least the least few times I was there the visitors (not the regulars) were awful players, it was the best game I have seen in some time. And the dealers/managers were very friendly (although one new dealer was worse than the AC dealers if that is possible!)
I also like the Orleans room, but I play Omaha hi/lo there, the room is very nice.
I would stay away from the MGM, just not my style.
Mark
Why do you stay away from the MGM? What is different about it's "style." Just curious.
Re: MGM -- It's probably just me: I have found many of the dealers to be surly, the players don't smile, I've sat at more than one table where steamrollers were making it difficult (or two or three obvious friendly steamrollers), etc. Also very very tight games. Also, I have seen tourists who would be loose and make a good game -- after two or three drinks -- get up and leave after people have overly hassled them about string bets or protecting their cards. I know that I try very hard to explain the rules to new people, and gently tell them to protect their cards, it is amazing how friendly people who have come to gamble and have fun can be even if losing, so they can go back home to tell their friends they played.
I have personally found both the Luxor (recently) and the Orleans, as long as I have played there, to be pretty friendly places.
Mark the K
Thanks for the info, Mark. I do want to ask if the mirage is too full of regulars who make the games tough to beat? Obviously you would like to go where you can capitalize on the mistakes of weaker players. Any advice, anyone? Jeff
Jeff,
I found the Mirage had a tougher game than at some other places. Many rock solid regulars in the game I played in.
Mark the K
What an understatement, quite often the biggest rock garden around. Actually the higher the limit there the better the game seems to be. Much of the time the 10-20 is the worst game in the room and the 40-80 isnt all that bad for a Vegas game. Not too many live ones at the lower medium limits, the big donors want to play the biggest games. The best place to play I think is Bellagio, the 4-8 and 8-16 games are fairly lively by Vegas standards and not a whole lot of tight locals, especially when its Thur-Sat. Where would Vegas poker be without that room?
Heres what I saw of the different poker rooms and casinos in Tunica last week. Stories and other "trip report-ish" stuff in the next post.
HORSESHOE--Top notch. The best. 14 tables-all limits. Some 1-5 stud. Higher stud one day. Called an "interest list" for stud/8, but it didn't go. Omaha/8 at the 10-20 level. Omaha high at two different pot limit levels. Hold'em had usually two tables of 4-8. One to three tables of 10-20, and another few of 20-40. A 50-100 table went most of the time I was there. Real good boss, floorpersons and dealers. Even Jack Binion was walking around. People are friendly and polite. Nice room and equipment. Quick to comp. Diane B (from Green Bay) always posts great things about this room---and its all true. Casino and pit are large and packed. Even the buffet was good.
GRAND--Used to be my favorite. They seem to have taken the "locals" market away from Sams. But now it seems there are fewer rich-golfer-businessmen-tourists (like me) in the room. They have a couple more tables than the Horseshoe, but they were not full either time I went. Real nice room. Lots of space--not cramped. Enclosed and quiet. They had 1-5 stud, Omaha/8 at two levels. Their main hold'em game is 2-5-10-10 with blinds of 1 and 2. Their 10-20 was real tight, but I didn't see it on a weekend evening. Best looking casino and pit(s) in town.
GOLD STRIKE--"For a good time ___", go here--after midnight. The wild and wackey Omaha/8 game (of recent legend -- and rgp postings) was not in evidence on my trip. It was OK, but not as good as advertised. Hold'em was 3-6 and 6-12. Lots of off duty dealers, lots of drinking, showing off, and taunting. I had a great time here---I was on vacation. 5 tables in the room. Helpful floorpersons--good dealers. Watch out for the one from New Orleans with the droll humor. Best cocktail waitresses in town--especially the ex-marine bodybuilder. Hey--I was on vacation.
SAMS--A shell of its former activity--too bad. Maybe their upcoming tournament will perk it up. Saw 2 tables going. One of 1-5 stud and one of 4-8 hold'em. I remember 4 hold'em tables going at once in this room.
HOLLYWOOD--Small enclosed room with low limits 1-5 stud and 3-6 hold'em. Casino is real noisy and with all kinds of movie stuff--thus the name.
BALLYS--4 stud tables plopped in the middle of the casino. One table going, 4 players, one dealer, one floorperson, one cranky waitress. Interesting look to the casino.
NO POKER--Sheraton, Harrahs, Fitzgeralds, Capri.
Ok, a partial report is better than nothing. Now be honest; would Vince have a shot at beating any of these games?
Brett
We could stake him -- for thirds of his first buy in to the 3-6 Omaha "loony game". You'd kick in a $20 share, right? Then again, you've seen his game, and I haven't.
"Opinion By" Abe
ps: I also saw the WORST structure hold'em game. 1-5 spread limit, 10 handed, with a single $1 blind.
Yes, I've seen him play. It wasn't pretty. Maybe I'c be better off spending the $20 on waitress tips.
I've seen the spread limit game in Colorado, where the max bet is $5, by state law. Now they mostly play with a $2 blind or $3 and $5 blinds.
Brett
Can anyone tell me where in AC to find a good 10-20 Omaha hi.lo game? I have seen in older messages both the Trump and Tropicana mentioned. Are there other places? Can someone give me a breakdown of which of these Trump/Trop or other games they would play in and why?
thanks in advance,
Mark the K
It's taken me awhile to find the time, but here is my trip report. 5 nights and 5 days in LV for the last events of the Orleans Open.
Springtime
I'm planning on attending the last 4 events of the Orleans. I like the lineup of events, NL HE, PL Omaha, limit HE, and the NL HE main event. I have won quite a few K at Foxwoods since taking a job with Pfizer and moving to Connecticut. However, most of the money has been spent on our new house. I'm depending upon my big refund check to fund this trip.
The IRS is f***ing me. They've lost my refund check. I had arranged for it to be direct deposited, and my credit union has now informed me that I can't simply use the numbers on the bottom of my checks. So, call the IRS, and find out that they deposited the money, and don't know where it is. My wife had been talking to her best friend back in San Diego (where we moved from last November), who was going to come up with her family at the same time so they could visit. Now it looks like no one is going to LV.
Early July
It's way too late to make plans for Cheryl to visit her friend. However, the IRS has found the direct deposit, and has sent me a live check. I talk to Cheryl, and she agrees to let me go to LV on my own and make some money. Whooopee! Big bucks, here I come!
I still had my room reservation for the tournament rate at the Orleans. However, it is now short notice and I have no airline tickets. I call the travel agency that works for Pfizer, and the best rate is like 450. I go online, but don't like the way Priceline.com does business. No choice of flight times. I get a price of 390. from Travelocity.com. Better, but I want cheap. Finally, as the trip approaches, I try Priceline.com again. I put in a bid of 150. with a departure from Providence (I live near Foxwoods, so Providence and Hartford are each about 50 minutes away). No good. I try again at 200. with a departure from Prov or Hart. No good. I try again at 250. What the f**k!!! Priceline tells me that I can't do this. Because I've already tried with this itinerary, I can't try again. I have to either change the date, or the location. In other words, if your dates and locations are solid, you can only try Priceline once, so you'd better start out asking for the highest price you'll pay. That's bull. Why can't I move up incrementally and get the best deal possible? Because they'll make a lot more money selling you a ticket for 300. that you could have gotten for 200., that's why.
I swear off Priceline completely. Then, a couple days before the trip, I decide I'll give them one more try, but they'll have to save me at least 100. So I put in for a departure from Prov or Boston at 290. Delta accepts, and I'm stuck flying out of Boston.
July 21
Get up at my normal time, and pack my bags for tonight. Go to work and put in a three-quarters day. Actually get stuff done. Get out at about 3:15, get home by 3:45. To save money on parking, Cheryl decides to drive me up after work. My plane leaves at 8PM, and we leave Stonington before 4. Takes 3 full hours to get to the airport, as traffic is bad in Prov and worse in Boston. Everything goes smooth at the airport. It's hard to say goodbye to Cheryl and Sophie. Sophie is 2.5 yo, and cute as can be. She is sad to see me going. Get on the plan, a direct flight to LV, and it's 80% empty. This is the first flight to LV I've ever been on that hasn't been jammed full. I start chatting with the attendant, telling her how much I hate the way Priceline does business.
We get seated and pull away from the terminal. We then sit on the runway for an hour before taking off. Apparently there's a huge line of planes waiting their turn. Since it's such a long flight, they'll be showing 2 movies, EdTV and Shakespeare in Love. I decline to pay $5 for the headphones, but the attendant gives them to me, saying "because you had to buy through Priceline". The trip is just started and I'm ahead +2 movie units! EdTV is pretty stupid, and Shakespeare in Love needs to be seen somewhere else besides an airplane, I think. I can't find any real fault with it, yet still didn't enjoy watching it.
We land safely in LV. I have 2 carry-on bags, nothing else, so I'm out to the transportation area immediately. Pass by the Gray Line at 6.60 for the trip to Orleans. CLS is only 5.00. Unfortunately, I'm let out last, so it takes an hour from the time I walk off the airplane until I arrive at the Orleans.
By the time I arrive at the Orleans, check in, drop off stuff at my room, it's after 1:00. This is 4:00 AM east coast time, so I know I shouldn't be playing much poker tonight. I decide to go to the tournament area just to get acclimatized, and hopefully play one satellite before bed.
The room is big and busy. As you walk in, there are almost 40 tables to your left and 50 to your right. The 40 on the left are for live games, and 20-25 are in action. low limit up to 20-40 and PL games. Tournament area is to the right, with the remains of both events in their final stages. It appears to be one table left from the main event at noon, and 2 or 3 tables of the second chance tournament. Close to the entrance is the satellite area, where quite a few satellites are going on.
I've only brought a modest sum of money with me to play with. Specifically, 1200. Like I said, I've done well at Foxwoods, but all that money has gone into the downpayment on our house, or furniture. As it turns out, we really spent too much on our house, and my income doesn't generate much excess after all the bills are paid. Thus, my poker bankroll is seriously depleted, and my job won't regenerate it for me. This whole trip is really too big of a gamble for my bankroll, but if I lose here, I'll just be limited to 3-6 when I get home.
So, I sign up for the cheapest satellite. It's 35. to enter, NL HE. Winner gets 2 lammers of 100. (lammers are chips that have no cash value, and can only be used to enter a tournament) plus 20. cash. Second place gets 60. cash. We play 10-handed, with T300 to start, 15 minute limits, beginning with blinds of 10,20. Nothing much happens the first level, but I finish with T315. Second level (15,30) is good to me, and I double through plus to T720. I lose 2 key hands during the third level (25,50). I'm dealt JJ in the SB, play is 5-handed. One fold to cutoff seat (seat 1 spot right of the button), who raises to T100. Cutoff has more chips than me, so I just call, as I want to see the flop before committing my chips. BB then goes all-in for T175, cutoff calls, I call. Flop is KQ7, check, check. Turn is K, with 3 clubs now on board, check, check. River is 4, with 4 clubs now on board, check, check. Cutoff turns over Ah8h for nothing, but BB wins with QT, no clubs. Who didn't misplay their hand?
Next hand, I again get JJ on the button. Folded to me, I make it T150. SB goes all-in again for T525, BB folds, I call. Flop is all smaller cards, and I show my JJ. SB admits he's drawing thin, then says he got there when a 6 comes on the river. Pocket 6s lucked out, and I'm down to 275. Play no more hands this level.
Blinds go up to 50,100, and I improve my stack to T625 during this level. I don't remember how. I believe we got down to 3 players during this limit. The final limit for this satellite is 100,200 (as it turns out). I win a couple of pots, busting a player out, and am up to about T1700. In heads-up play I improve my stack to the point where I've got my opponent T2200:T800. The final hand is weird. I raise my opponent's T200 blind on a steal with 34o. He calls the T800 bet all-in, and shows K4o. I turn over my 3, and say "this is my only live card." The dealer then immediately puts out a flop with two 3s in it. The river is the last 3, and I win the satellite with quads.
I chat with some friends briefly, and go to bed.
July 22
Wake up earlier than I expected. Had breakfast at the coffee shop. OK.
Decided to play 1 satellite before the main event at noon. Another 35. buyin NL HE satellite. I got eliminated during the first level. I had bled my stack from T300 down to about T170. Got all-in preflop with presto, and lost to JJ. Don't understand how I could lose that one! However, I sold my fake diamond ring (super gawdy mans-style ring, with a 5ct cubic zirconia, a bunch of smaller CZs, and gold-plated) for $75, a profit of $50 on the ring, so I guess I really won $15 in this satellite.
Main event. NL HE. 100. + 20. buyin, with unlimited 100. rebuys. My limit-by-limit notes aren't available, so I don't know the exact details of the structure. I know I only lasted 2 hours, and that I did one rebuy and one add-on, for a total investment of 320. 2 hands in my notebook.
In a blind vs. blind confrontation, I raised from the SB with KcJc. Blinds were at 15,25, and I made it T65 to go. BB called. I think we both started with about T6-700. The flop was Tc3c2. I checked, and she bet T100. I check-raised to T300, and she went all-in for about T2-300 more. I called. Last 2 cards were a 9 and 6, no clubs, and she won with T3o. I may have misplayed my hand, but I know she misplayed hers.
My elimination hand was TT. One early limper, I limped in middle position when the blinds were 25,50, and I had about T800. The button limps behind me, the SB folds, and the BB checks. There is T225 in the pot. Flop is 663. 2 checks, and I bet T200, button folds, and BB raises all-in with a little more than I have. Early limper folds, and I have a decision to make. The BB is unknown to me, but has been playing very aggressively. He certainly doesn't need a 6 or 33 to make this play. I also feel that he doesn't have a big pair, as he would have most likely raised preflop with 3 limpers already in the pot. I finally decide that JJ is the only likely hand I should fear, and that 77-99 are more likely. I call, and am shown KK. No T comes to save me, and I am done. I'm still quite surprised by his hand. Again, I think I may have misplayed my hand, but I'm sure he misplayed his.
Afterwards I get into a 10-20 half-kill Omaha8 game, but it's not so good. I lose a little, and quickly move to a 6-12 half-kill HE game. It's pretty good, and I make a profit. I then get called for a satellite. Today the satellites are mostly PL Omaha (the next day's main event). The buyin is 60., with the winner getting 4 lammers of 100. plus 60. cash, and second place 70. cash. I pretty much rule this satellite. We start with T300, and I get that up to T580 during the 10,20 level. I then improve to T1190 during the 15,30 level, and to T2250 during the 25,50 level. A few hands into the 50,100 level it gets down to me and Bob Thompson. We play a few hands, and the chips are split T2050:T950 (my advantage). He asks for 1 lammer to give it up, and I agree. This means I get 3 lammers + 60., while he gets 1 lammer + 70. By my math, a fair deal would give him 1 lammer plus 93.50, so I don't mind taking the 22.50 he's giving me.
Dinner break. What did I do? I can't recall. Really need to work on this memory problem.
Play some 10-20 Omaha8, lose 6. Play some 5,5,10 blind PL HE, lose 35. Get called for another satellite. PL Omaha again, but this time it's 100. buyin, with the winner getting 8 lammers + 120. We also start with T500 in chips instead of T300, but same structure, so you get a little longer to wait for a hand. I basically break even the first 2 levels, and then move up to T1200 during the 25,50 level. Move up a little more to T1550 during the 50,100 level. We are now 3-handed during the 100,200 level. The chip leader proposes a near-even split. Myself and the other guy get 3 lammers, and he gets 2 lammers + 120. cash. I have T1450, leader has T2200, and trailer has T1350. I have NO problem with this deal, as my EV at this point is only 266.80. Again, I'll take a gift of 33.20. Trailer also has no problem. I don't know why the chip leader offered such a good deal. Why open negotiations with anything less than a profitable deal? I briefly considered asking the trailer to give up some money so I could get a little more (I mean, I had more chips than him, and should get more than him, right?). However, since there was basically no margin between 300 and 320, what could I do, ask him to give me 5.? Didn't seem worth upsetting a deal that was making me 33.20.
Geez, 4 satellites, 3 profits. How long can this last? Hopefully forever.
Went back to the PL HE game for about 45 minutes, made some money, and got called for another satellite. Let's go!
This one is theoretically for the TOC. Buyin is 160., with the winner getting 15 lammers. Game is NL HE. Again start with T500. I break even the first level. Lose it all in 1 hand during the second level. Cutoff has limped first-in for T30. I raise to T100 on the button with AKo. Blinds fold, and cutoff goes all-in. Something tells me he doesn't have AA or KK, so I call. Sure enough, he doesn't. He has 66, but makes a straight to beat my K that paired the flop.
I then get into a 60. PL Omaha satellite. My stack goes from T300 to T60 the first level, and I then bust out a couple of hands into the second level. So much for my satellite rush. It's 1:00, and time for bed.
July 23
Eat some breakfast, and get to the tournament area by 9. Immediately get in a 35. PL Omaha satellite. Lose out in about 40 minutes.
At this point, my bankroll hasn't improved all that much from it's 1200 starting point. I decide to forego the main event that day. It will be 200. + 20. PL Omaha, with 1 optional 200. rebuy. If I play this event and lose, it will leave me with just enough money to play the last 2 main events, but nothing else. Since the last 2 events are HE, at which I am much better than PL Omaha, I decide not to risk it. Instead I get into a 10-20 HE game.
During this game I meet Diane. Yes, the soon to be famous Diane from Green Bay who was filmed by the Discovery Channel. She has been in town a few days, but the film crew won't start up until tomorrow (is that right?). We have a pleasant chat, and then get more serious about the game. I ask her if she's seen Llew (Linda Lewis), who is supposed to meet me at some point and give me a ride to the Gambler's Book Store. Diane is kind (and smart) enough to call Llew's room, and comes back to inform me that Llew will be down in a little bit, and knows to look for me at table 3. When Llew shows up I say hi, and tell her I'll play around to my big blind (I was about to play my small blind, so it would be a little bit). I should have gotten up immediately, as I was something like 190. ahead when she showed up, and down 10. when I quit.
We go out to the valet and get her rental. We drive to GBS, getting lost a few times on the way. Both of us had been there before, and thought we knew where it was. But we had no map and no exact street address, and a vague memory is worse than no knowledge at all in this circumstance, as I imagine most of you know. I am excited about perusing the used poker book section, something that exists nowhere else in the world. Unfortunately, it doesn't exist here either. Llew and I cannot find the poker section in the used book room. I ask the guy behind the counter, and he informs us that they seldom get in any used poker books, and when they do, the books get bought immediately. This sucks. I finagled a ride out here for nothing. I can buy any book on the shelf off the internet (preferably from ConJelCo, hint, hint). We then swing by the Gambler's General Store, so I can buy some used decks of casino cards for a LV night party I'm having soon. We grab some burgers on the way back, and I'm ready for action.
I sign up for the second chance tournament at 7 tonight. The game is NL HE, 100. + 20. buyin with one optional 100. rebuy. There is a monster line at 5 when they start taking signups, and by 5:45 it is sold out. They are taking alternates to replace bustouts, and get up to something like 70 alternates before everyone gives up. At about 6, they call down a 160. NL HE satellite. I figure that this will be over about the time the tournament starts, give or take only a few minutes, so I buyin. I am told that I am the last one in. Then, a couple of players back out. One seat is sold immediately, but we then end up waiting over half an hour to sell the last seat. So, by the time we start, it's 6:37. Now I know I will miss the start of the tournament, unless, of course, I'm unlucky here. Is Hobson's Choice the appropriate term?
Again start with T500 in chips, 10-handed. Chris Bigler, 5th place finisher in this year's WSOP main event, is on my left. He is the first person to recognize me based upon my collection of fossils on the table, and introduces himself. Apparently he is a regular lurker on RGP. His game is unrelentingly aggressive. It is probably to his advantage that he is still pretty unknown, as his level of aggression is going to lead to his getting called down a lot once he is known. Of course, he's probably good enough to use that to his advantage when it starts to happen.
I largely coast through the first half-hour, winning a little the first level and losing it back the second. Then at the third level, 25,50 blinds, I run my stack from T465 to T2225. I am crushing the table at this point. An interesting hand came up during this level as well, before I went into crush mode. Chris is the chip leader, has raised the blinds from late position, and is called by the BB. When the hand is over, the BB is all-in, and has sucked out (modestly, he wasn't a huge dog) on Chris. Then, while still apparently fuming, Chris comes in for a raise first-in the very next hand. As Chris is grabbing his chips for a raise, he is fumbling with them. As he tries to grab the desired amount and fails a couple times, he says "damn, just bet it all". By doing this Chris has overbet the pot, raising all-in about T450 into the 25,50 blinds. The SB, the player who just doubled through Chris, thinks briefly and calls, the BB folds. When the cards are dealt out, Chris turns over AA and wins. Chris then turns to me and winks, saying "Nice steam-raise, huh?!"
By early the next level, I am heads-up with Howard Mann, who has the chip lead at about T3K to my T2K. We play a few hands, and I've got T1800. He offers a deal to give me 5 lammers and 50. cash. The math is easy at this point, just take my T1800 and divide by 10 and multiply by 3 to convert to cash value. 540. cash value, being offered 550., and he's too good a player to be likely to give me more, so I say yes. Nice profit of 380. Starting to like satellites again.
By the time this satellite is over, it's almost 8:00, and almost end of the rebuy period for the tournament. I've been blinded from T500 down to T360, and add-on for T500 more, just in time for the break, and play no hands. After the break they race off the T5 chips, and I go from T860 to T875. They are using the new format where each player can win only one chip during the race. Thus, if there are 3 T25 chips to be won, they will be won by 3 different players. Highest card gets a chip, then the next highest, etc., with the proviso that no one can win more than 1.
The 3rd level is 25,50 blinds, and I go from T875 to T1250. During this level I cripple Tom McEvoy. I am the SB, and Tom is 2 seats to my right. He raises to T175 first-in, button folds, and I go all-in for T625 with ATo. Tom calls with an underpair, and I flop a T to double up. I must say that I was very UNimpressed with Tom's play. Not on this or any other hand in particular, but his play in general. During the whole time he was there, Tom was reading this book. He only looked up when it was his turn to act. He only rarely slowed down the game, but I was surprised to see a player of his stature paying so little attention to the game. If this event is so small that it's not worth his full effort, then why play at all? I mean, even a great player needs to pay attention so he can get a line on his opponents, right? Nothing really happens during the 50,100 level, and I finish with T1300.
During the next level the big hand occurs. I am in middle position and get dealt AA. My stack is at T1200, and blinds are 100,200. UTG raises to T600, and I raise all-in. The chip leader at our table, a loose and weak player who is pretty much guaranteed not to win, thinks a long time and calls my raise. Bill Seymour is the BB, and has only T475 (T200 of which is in the blind). He clearly has a piece of cheese, because he takes a long time to decide what to do. Finally he says something about hoping we all have high cards, and calls all-in. The original raiser calls all-in for about T1000. Thus, 3 of the 4 players are all-in. The flop is 9h7c6c, turn is Kc, and river is Qc. I do NOT have the Ac. Original raiser turns over 66 for a set, Bill Seymour turns over 85o for a straight on the flop, and the chip leader turns over TT including the Tc. I've gone all-in with AA before the flop against 3 players and come in 4th place! Instead of winning a T4000 pot at a time when the average stack is less than T2000, I am busted. This one hurt a lot.
Played another 160. NL HE satellite. Got my stack up to T750 max. Lost going all-in preflop with AdKd vs. QQ. I was down to T450 at the 50,100 level, so not any room to maneuver. It's just wait for a hand and go all-in at that point.
I then got called for the PL half/half game. It is played with blinds of 5,10 during the Omaha hands, and 10,20 during the HE. I decided to take a shot here, as there were a couple of weak players who were gambling it up. I bought in for 500., the minimum, intending to try to double up and then probably quit. Unfortunately variance wasn't on my side, and I got busted. Decided that the other guy didn't have much on a flop of 9dTd3h, when I was holding QdJd. Heck, even if he had a big hand, I was a favorite. I bet out, he raised, and I reraised all-in. He called with 7d7s!!! And it held up. I was a huge favorite, with 20 cards to hit twice. Personally, I can't see how he can call here. It's too bad I wasn't properly financed for the game. If he kept that up, how could I help but make money?
Played a limit HE satellite for 100. Never got anywhere, although I lasted close to an hour. Then, I entered another one of the 160. NL HE satellites. Won a little, lost a little, doubled up the 3rd level, doubled up the 4th level. Got down to heads-up play during the 5th level with 100,200 blinds and T5000 in play. At one point I had the lead T3K:T2K. We're playing for 15 lammers. My opponent asks for a 8:7 split, with his associate (a guy sitting near him) saying that's a fair deal. I say the chips are 3:2, so 9:6 is a fair split. He counters that it will only take 1 hand for him to take a big lead, so the split should be closer to even. I say no thanks. He gets upset, making comments to his friend that I can't quite hear, but appear to be denigrating towards me. We play a few hands, and the chips are T2800:T2200 in my favor. He offers a save, where the winner will pay the loser 160. I think I should put the needle in him and get him on tilt by countering with a save of 220. for me and 160 for him, but decide that I'd rather have an opponent who will fold to my steals than one who will play aggressively, so I just accept. He then sucks out in a series of hands, and I get my money back. I'm very upset with myself for not doing better here, and decide to go to bed.
(to be continued)
(continued from part I)
July 24
Wake up earlier than I expected, but I'm not tired. Grab some breakfast, and go to the tournament room to figure out what to do prior to the noon tournament. I get into a brand-new 10-20 ½kill Omaha8 game. I'm in the 7 seat, and the guy in seat 6 is French, and doesn't speak much English. He draws the BB the first hand, myself and a bunch of others limp in (I don't recall what I had, and since I folded on the flop it doesn't matter much), and French Guy (FG) raises, we all call. Flop comes something like Ad5sTs. FG bets out, a few calls, late position raise, FG reraises, all call. Turn is 9c, FG bets, same callers, same raiser, FG reraises again, all call again. River is 2h, FG bets, I think 1 caller folds, and original raiser is openly whining about the 2, so you know he has 23 (and as it turns out 236), but he calls. FG turns over AAs3s4, for top set on the flop, nut flush draw, and 3rd nut low draw. He rivered the wheel to scoop a monster. However, despite the hand he showed, everyone at the table is convinced he's some super lucky fish, because he has had so much trouble communicating what he wants to do. For example, when he bet the river, he tried to put out about 80. in chips, and the dealer pushed back all but 20. Then, FG still tried to put out more chips, even before anyone had called. You would think he didn't understand limit poker at this time.
As we continued with the game, half the table was on tilt (non-mad tilt, but tilt) with this guy. He started to get the hang of limit bets, but the frequent half-kill to 15-30 kept confusing him. I took French in high school, so I still knew the French words for 10, 20, 15, 30. I kept telling him the amount, yet he still would frequently put out too much. After a while I realized that this guy was too good, and knew exactly what his actions were doing. He probably had a real problem like this before, and now acted it out everytime he was at a table of strangers, knowing that they would give him too much action. Of course, it didn't hurt that he was dealt a long string of premium hands right off the bat, and continued to hit the flop almost every time. He must have scooped or halved 7-8 of the first 10 hands. Of course, even knowing what was going on, I couldn't complete any of my draws, and lost about 150. in a little over an hour.
Tournament time, main event, 300. + 30. limit HE. We started with T700 and 15-30 betting limits. I had Robert Turner 2 seats to my right, and Melissa 2 seats to my left. Melissa is a very tall, very thin, very pretty redhead. I don't really know her, but remember seeing her at quite a few tournaments at the Commerce and Normandie when I lived in San Diego and would go up to LA for the majors. Is this Melissa Heyden (sp?) who played at BARGE with Scott Byron et al. in the team HORSE event?
Early on, I had determined to take notes of all my key hands. So, on the second hand, I limp UTG with 88, 4 players see the flop. Flop contains two 5s, and early position bets, I raise as I don't put him on a 5, and I want to eliminate the overcards behind me. He reraises, and I call. He checks the turn, I bet, he check-raises, and I call. River he bets, I call. He has presto, and flopped quads. Oops, badly played hand, good thing it's the first limit, and I only lost T150.
On the next hand, no one raises my BB of Q6o. Flop comes Q high, early position limper bets, everyone else folds, I call. Turn doesn't make any draws, I bet, he calls. River is a 3, I check, he bets, I call. He has Q3o, I lose. -T90 that hand.
Three hands later, I'm first in from the cutoff seat and raise with Ah9h. BB calls, flop is 59J, no heart draw for me. BB checks, I bet, he check-raises, I 3-bet, he calls. Turn is Q, check, check. River is 8, check, check. BB wins with 85o. -T75.
Called a raise with 66 the next hand, as there was multiway action. 6 players saw the flop of 39T, on which I folded. -T30.
At this point I'm getting pretty dejected. I've lost half my stack, and the first orbit isn't even complete. I'm looking at my notes, and thinking that this is going to read like one long whine. My attitude at this point is not favorable.
Next hand, a couple of limpers including Robert Turner, I limp with As5s. Flop is AcQd8d. RT bets first, I raise, he 3-bets, I call. If you don't know RT, you're probably wondering why I'm being so aggressive. He doesn't need even a full 8 or 9 card draw to play a hand this fast. With this flop, KcJc, 9hJd, and the like will do. We continue betting aggressively through the turn, and then both check the river. He ties me with Ad5d, and was freerolling me. At least I made a little bit of profit.
Nothing much happens for awhile. Then in later position, I 3-bet after an early position raise with JJ. BB calls, raiser calls. Flop is 68K. They check, I bet, BB calls, raiser folds. 7 on the turn, both check (I'm concerned that he has a K with a weak kicker). River is T, BB bets, I call, and he wins with 7To. -T90.
This is my absolute low point. I'm down below T200 in chips, and it's still the first level. I've almost never done this poorly in a tournament before. In fact, I can't recall more than 1 time ever losing 500 in less than an hour of 15-30, even wild games with big pots where you pay a lot for your draws. Anyway, I mentally recoup and determine that I'm going to go out playing a good hand, if at all.
Also, I stop taking notes of anything other than really important hands, and even these weren't written down much anymore, as I got too involved with the game.
Next level is 25,50 bets. There's a raise, 2 cold calls, and I reraise with AA. The button kind of makes it 4 bets behind me. He puts out 4 chips, and as the blinds are folding, he grabs back one of his chips, saying he only meant to call. The original raiser puts out a third chip, limpers also call, and I say raise, putting out 5 chips. I want a ruling on the button's 4-bet. It is ruled that the button didn't raise, even though he put out 4 chips, and even though there was action behind him, as the dealer misdescribes the hand to the floor, saying the button pulled back his chip before the blinds acted. Final board is Q68-3-T, and my AA holds up all-in on the turn. As I'm being pushed the pot, the BB tells me that if the button hadn't 4-bet, he would have called with pocket 6s and busted me. Which tells you that he folded before the button pulled back his chip. I guess I got lucky?
The next hand I recorded is at the 100,200 bet level. By this time I have a healthy stack, and am playing aggressively and slightly more loosely than my normal ring game. People are folding to me unless they make a good hand, for the most part, and I'm determined to take advantage of it. I raise early with AhQd, and Men "The Master" Nguyen calls, with all others folding. I'm surprised he called me, because he's in middle position, and only had T300 to start the hand. In his spot, any hand I'm calling with I'm raising with to ensure that the pot is heads-up, to maximize my chances of winning. I bet blind, because I want Men to be pretty sure I've got a premium pair. If he's confident in this (incorrect) read, he might fold a small pocket pair that misses the flop. The flop is 93J, all hearts, and Men calls. I don't mind, as I have the nut flush draw and 2 overcards. Men turns over Qh8h, for a made flush. I have 7 outs, and catch one of them, the 2h, on the turn. Thus, the Ad on the river is meaningless (except that Men didn't complete his 1-outer straight flush draw), and I've busted out a tough competitor.
This next hand is at the 500, 1K level. We're getting pretty close to the money. I'm at a new table with Max Stern 2 seats to my right. On this hand I'm the BB, and MS is the button. UTG raises, this maniac calls (don't know how he made it this far, must be running EXTREMELY good), MS calls, SB folds, I call with 9c5c (not a great hand, but I'll play it in this spot). Flop is Jd9h2c. Not great, but not awful. I have 2nd pair and a backdoor flush draw. I hope no one bets the flop. Yes, it's checked around. I think the maniac must have brain-lock (for him, his normal routine would be to bet any flop checked to him). Turn card is 3c, and I have picked up the flush draw. I check, UTG checks, and the maniac wakes up and bets. MS calls, and I raise. At this point, I know no one has an overpair, and I think that there is a pretty good chance that no one has a J or pocket TT. If I'm wrong and I'm not in the lead, I've got probably 9-14 outs to win. Plus, if I am ahead, I want to get rid of UTG, who I read for AK or AQ, so that I can eliminate 6 outs against me. UTG does fold, and the others call. River is 7s, and I check, as I don't think a worse hand will call my bet, I don't think a better hand will fold, and I might induce a bluff. Sure enough, the maniac bets, MS calls, and because of his call, I'm not sure that I want to call. Finally, I decide that the pot is too big to give up, especially the way the hand has been played. Plus, I've still got a good stack if I'm wrong. Maniac shows A2 for bottom pair, MS has presto (55), and I win with my pair of 9s, a pot of about 11K. Since the average stack at the final table will be about 32K, this is a big pot with 4 or 5 tables to go. In fact, this pot represents about double the average stack.
After the hand, MS is talking to a guy sweating him, and is clearly on tilt. He is very upset with himself for not raising me off my hand on the river. I can certainly see his point, but to do that would have taken most of his remaining chips. I mean, when he called that last big bet, his stack had less than 2 big bets remaining. Thus, if he raises, he is opening himself to a reraise that would put him all-in. He would have to be very certain he's ahead of the maniac, and pretty sure he can make me fold (or beat me) to make that raise.
Nearing the end of this level, and Scotty Nguyen, 1998 World Champion, is moved to my table. He is dressed a lot like a pimp, as some people have noted in prior posts. However, he seems quite pleasant and I certainly have no complaints about him or his attitude. While I'll never be accused of dressing like a pimp, I certainly will be (and have been) accused of dressing poorly.
Next level, bets are 1K, 2K. We are down to 31 players, with 30 being paid. The play is VERY tight, and I have the biggest stack in the tournament. I am stealing a lot, because they are letting me. I don't blame them. When the chip leader does this, and is making it clear that he'll bet all the way, you are facing elimination if you play with him. Even if you have AK, you are taking a big risk, because AK isn't a huge favorite (don't get me wrong, it's a favorite, just not huge) over any 2 undercards.
Anyway, on the hand under discussion, I am first in from late position, with Scotty Nguyen in the BB. He is a slightly below average stack with 6K. I raise with Qh9h, and SN calls. The flop is KJx, SN checks, I bet, he calls. Turn is another little card, SN checks, I bet, he folds. He is now down to 3K. I think he must have misplayed his hand. I will seldom call a bet from the BB in a situation like this unless I'm willing to go all-in. Maybe SN thought he'd call and determine what to do by "reading" me. If so, he read must have been wrong. If not, then I think he probably shouldn't have called in the first place.
Next hand, everyone folds to me again, and I steal again by raising with QsTs. SN appears a little on tilt, and after 10 seconds of thought, reraises all-in from the SB. BB folds, I call. I tell him he's ahead, and table my hand. Board comes T32-Q-9. SN mucks his hand unseen, and we're all in the money. I think we've been guaranteed around 600-700. I don't pay that much attention, because my goal is to continue growing my stack with an eye towards 1st place. However, I do slow down on my stealing, especially from early or middle position, as I know that the shorter stacks who have locked up a profit will now be much more willing to take some risks.
I did not record any more of my hands. I was too busy paying attention to every hand and every player at this point. Next time I'll get Tom Sims to sit behind me an record everything so I can get a complete record of how well (poorly) I played. I do recall a hand when we were at 2 tables. Everyone had about 1,000. locked up, and 10th only paid about 800. more, so there was more incentive to win chips and shoot for a high paying spot than there was to rock up. I'm in the SB, everyone folds, and I steal-raise with 45s. The BB is at least a decent player (didn't know him, but he made no obvious errors while we were at the same table), and called my raise. His stack did not consist of more than 6 small bets, so I immediately gave him credit for a good hand when he called. The flop was K55. Well, who cares how good his hand is now, I'm going to do whatever it takes to get him all-in, win or lose. I check, he bets, I call. I don't raise here because if he's bluffing, he'll be able to let go of his hand. Turn is a Q, I check, he bets, I now raise him all-in. I raised here because again, if he's bluffing, he might have picked up a draw or have a live A. If I wait and bet the river he'll give up his draw, whereas right now he'll have to call for the size of the pot if he thinks his draw can win. River is an unneeded 4, and I bust another player. I've been busting many of them, and my stack has been growing almost constantly.
By the time we get to the final table, I have about T81K. The average stack is about 32K. After subtracting my chips, my average opponent has about 27K. We lose a player pretty quick, and then don't lose the 9th place for a long time. At one point early in final table play, I'm up to about 120K, and no one had more than half this many. Unfortunately, from this point on I do not win a single hand, except for 2 blind steals, once with AA. Every other time, I am raising preflop with good, even very good hands, am getting called much more often than I should, and am losing to worse hands. Examples include things like raising first in from late position with AT, getting called by the BB with Q9, and losing when the flop is 9JK, while they're calling my bets on the flop and turn. Mike Paulle told me I was playing too many hands, but I was continually dealt good cards. I just couldn't avoid getting outflopped. The 2 guys from Costa Rica who finished 1st and 2nd were amazingly lucky, especially the 2nd place finisher. I thought the eventual winner played very well, and only got lucky when he got into spots that really couldn't be avoided. The 2nd place guy played some hands that he should never have played, and got away with it every time. I think he must have survived between 5 and 10 all-ins at the final table. Heck, his presto flopped quads against me. This was one of my worst preflop matchups the entire final table, 2 overcards vs. an underpair. Most of the hands where cards were shown, I was a solid (at least 3:2) favorite preflop. Oh well, not much you can do about that.
Mike suggested that when I got to 100K, I should have pretty much shut down, and only played premium cards. With this strategy, I could have almost guaranteed survival to the last 3 spots, and then made a deal for 20K or so. While I won't say he's wrong, I don't think this strategy maximizes EV. If my luck had broken even at the final table, I would have had well over half the chips when we got down to 3-handed, and made a deal for 15-20K more than Mike's strategy. If my luck had been better than average, I would have had virtually no incentive to make any deal, as I would have held 75% of the chips at that point.
Oh well, a 4K profit isn't all that bad, let's just hope for more next time.
July 25
I have entered the final event, the 500. + 40. NL HE. I am really jazzed to do even better than yesterday. Unfortunately, the format is pretty fast. It only takes a raise preflop, and a bet and a raise on the flop to get someone all-in, even during the first level. I bleed away a little. I raise preflop with AKs, flop comes small with 2 of my suit. I check and raise all-in, but lose to the bettor who flopped a set with 44. I don't see how I could get away from that hand without being psychic. This guy had been playing pretty loose and aggressive, so how do you intelligently fold on this flop? Maybe Scott Byron can tell me how I should have played it.
I get into a 20-40 HE game, and lose a good bit. I then get called for the PL HE game (5,5,10 blinds), and win most of it back. It's now time for the last tournament, the second chance Omaha8 event.
I am at the same table as Oklahoma Johnny Hale, and saw him go all-in with A222. He was in late position, there were 3 limpers ahead of him, and he had slightly less than 2 small bets. I think it was a mistake.
I start with T500, lose T10 the first level, win T20 the second level, add-on T500 more, lose T10 in the chip race, break dead even the third level, so I'm still at T1K. I lose a series of hands during level 4, and am busted, without ever doing much of anything at all. My bustout hand was one I saw for free from the big blind. Flop was JJ3, and I had JA45. Other guy had J3, and I never caught a better full.
Back to 20-40 HE, lose a bit more. Then to PL HE, 5,5,10 again, and win it back and then some. This game was played with Patri of the purple hair. I enjoyed playing with him quite a bit. He has energy and style (not just his hair). I was neutral in my opinion of him before (because I pretty much ignore what anyone says about anyone on the internet, including themselves), and now consider him to be at least a pretty good player (I'll need to see more of him before I can rate him higher). Patri moves on to a stud 8 or better game, and this game dwindles away and breaks. Back to 20-40 HE, where I win again.
I then get called for the big game, PL half-HE half Omaha high, with blinds of 10,25. I probably shouldn't play in this game given my bankroll. One bad beat can cost you everything. I buy in for only a little more than the minimum, and don't plan on rebuying, no matter how good the game is. I do OK for a good while, and even get up a few hundred, mostly in the HE rounds. Then, I overplay one hand (maybe, you judge for yourself) and go bust. I am dealt QdQ6d8d in second to last position. There are 2 limpers, and I also limp for 25. The button raises to 75., SB folds, BB calls, limpers call, I call. Also, everyone has more money than me. The button appears to be a solid player who is not likely to be playing garbage, or even a marginal hand. He has AA suited, maybe a big wrap-type hand (e.g., 9TJQ), something where he wants to build a pot preflop. He could have raised to 150. to go, and his not doing so indicates he's glad to have company. Flop is 5d7hKh. I've flopped a straight draw, but there's a flush draw out there also. My Queens don't look to be of much use, except for the third nut backdoor flush draw (which doesn't mean much). We all check to the raiser, who bets 150., which is called by a limper, and then me. I'm looking for one of my 6 nut outs, for which I'm getting immediate odds of almost 5:1, plus significant implied odds. The only concern here is whether the limper is on the same draw plus redraws, as I don't put the raiser on any hand with a 68 (unless he's got AA68 suited). The turn is a Q, not the heart. I've got to like this card. Right now, the only better hand is KK. I feel that he's much more likely to have AA with a flush draw than KK or anything else I should worry about. There is over 800. in the pot, and I have 1125. in my stack. My main concern is the flush draw, and I don't want to give him pot odds to draw for it. I bet 500. which does not give him odds for a 9-card draw, and hopefully is just as threatening as betting the pot, since I can obviously go all-in on the river. He apparently isn't concerned about that, as he raises me all-in. Now I've got to think. I feel that there is now a high chance that he has KK, a hand I did not give him credit for until now. However, he might only have AA, or he might be drawing to a hand like 4567 or 5678 which has given him 2-pair as well. I'm basically getting 4:1 in a spot where I might be ahead, and if behind, I have at least 6 outs. Overall, I can't fold here, and don't know that I should. I call, he has KKxx, and I don't improve.
In retrospect, my biggest mistake wasn't the call. I had 9 outs (1 Q, 4 fours, 4 nines), so was actually getting an overlay. My mistake was not trying to reduce variance. We showed our hands after I called. I should have asked him for a deal where we would put out 2 or 3 river cards, and have each card play for a share of the pot. He probably would have agreed, and I would have had a much better chance of not going bust. Of course, this deal, which is quite common in some PL and NL games, actually favors the person in the lead (and therefore disfavors me), but it's so effective at reducing variance that it's worth the slight loss in EV.
That was all for me. I chatted with a few friends, and went to bed. It was after 3 in the morning, and I had a plane at 11. Woke up in the morning, got cleaned up, checked out safely, took a cab, caught my plane, and flew to Utah. That was expected, as my connection started there. Everything was smooth, caught my plane to Boston, and met my wife and daughter at the gate. It was great to see them again.
Overall, I made a couple K on this trip, after expenses. Which is nice. I didn't make the big haul, and came so close I could taste it. Which sucks. One thing I did learn is that I really don't want to be a full-time pro. This is the first time I've gone to a major tournament to play in many of the events. All my previous experiences have been 1-day trips to LA when I lived in San Diego, or the Foxwoods tournaments, where I'm a local and go home. BARGE is more comparable, but it's primarily a social event, and doesn't involve playing for tens of thousands of dollars. Anyway, after 5 days of this, I realized that I wouldn't want to do this all year long. It would get old before the first year was over with, and I'd end up like Tom McEvoy, reading a book of fiction during a tournament, because I'm just so tired of the whole thing, that it can't keep my attention.
If anyone would like to comment on any of the hands described herein, please do so. However, because of the length of my report, you should probably do a cut-and-paste and start a new thread with it. I won't mind.
I didn't mention most of the people I met or saw again here, as I'm so bad with names, I knew that I would fail to mention some good folks by accident. So, don't think I didn't enjoy meeting and chatting with all of you. I didn't "meet" any jerjs this trip, as the jerjs were all folks I avoided meeting entirely.
I hope to see many of you at FARGO in November (is that the right time?), at Foxwood's World Poker Finals in December, or at the WSOP next spring. I plan on attending all of them (and winning quite a few of them as well). Good luck to all.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks for both posts Greg. They were great! Now that you have learned that you are not going to be a "big-time" pro......maybe Two Plus Two will hire you as a Tournament Player/Trip Report consultant....lol Thanks again.
Tom
I saw this interesting show last night about gambling on cable tv, including many tapes of scams which people pull in casinos.
One of these was a real tape display from a sky-camera (with faces covered) of someone palming cards at a poker table. I could not detect the cheating - the tape was fuzzy - but they did walk the guy out, and then they showed what he was 'apparently' doing. And the pro who did it for tv was good.
It made me think of a very loose game I played in at the MGM (?) a few years ago. Lots of terrible players were dropping lots of cash...it was so unusual that I would remember it anyway...however, about an hour after the bulk of the bad players were gone, the guy to my right says to the dealer "The cards are marked"...small commotion ensues. Turns out the the clubs or spades (???) were all indented along the tops with a sharp fingernail. Just enough to see if you were looking hard....and then everyone kinda glanced at this one very 'lucky' and loud guy. (He was wearing the same hawaiian print shirt as the guy they walked off camera in the tv show) He left soon after.
What does one look for? Anyone else have much experience with cheating? Just curious...
Mark the K
I was in the $20-$40 game at the Mirage when the palming slash hold-out cheat was caught. He had been kicking my [censored], of course, more because he always had a pair than because of any huge hands. I saw the heat from casino management, so I was searching the table intently for cheating activity, and I didn't see it. Neither could management, despite being suspicious of the guy. It was just as slick as on that show. After several large wins over several days, he was finally caught mucking 3 cards at once, after a player asked for a deck change in disgust. (See, there is a reason to ask for deck changes when you're losing. 1/2 :) Cheating exists.
As for what to look for with respect to hold-out cheats, if you taped that show, watch it again and again: arm rubbing, hand sliding between arm or lap and the table, suspicious mucking motion, and sitting in seat next to dealer. His play looked all the world like a whale of a fish, like apparently calling 3 bets cold preflop with Q5 (I would call 3 bets too with AQ5) and calling on the end with the stone cold nuts (I would call with the nuts too if my nut hand were currently up my sleeve and I needed a few moments to extract it.)
Of course, it's a rare event, but that doesn't bring back the few hundred dollars (at least) that I lost to that cheat.
As for collusion, I've presented several examples in the past. Here is one. There is a pair of players at Bellagio who play on the same bankroll. In a $15-$30 game, one open-raised on the button, the small blind called, the other of the pair reraised, and then the first one mucked. Not convinced? Good, I would not be convinced either. However, one of them told me a story about the other one botching up an attempt to collude in one hand they played in Los Angeles. Collusion exists.
As for frequency, it's hard to say, but based on my experience I'm much more concerned about collusion in L.A. than Vegas or San Jose, partially because of the blatant cheating I've seen in L.A., and partially because the heavy density of pros in Vegas and San Jose tend to police the games just like Mason says. I pointed out that strange fold to my wife, whose game I was just watching, and she reported it to management, for example.
-Abdul
I would really like to know more about cheating in LA. The writer I described in a previous post mentioned it at the table once, but wouldn't elaborate. He also said that cp wouldn't publish his opinions.
Brett
One LA cheating incident occurred at the old Crystal Park in $20-$40. Two guys had a player caught in the middle with raises on the flop. On the turn, one bet out, the guy in the middle called, and then the bettor made a blatant hand signal (like "stand" in blackjack) to ask his friend not to raise. On the river, a third suited card hit and he bet out with his nut flush, the guy trapped in the middle called, and then the signaller flashed his flush to his friend so that he could fold his hand (which I saw was top set, since I was sitting next to him.) The signaller is a dealer at the Commerce. The signallee is one of three brothers that share the same bankroll and often play in the same game.
One of that player's brothers was involved in another incident at another LA casino in $40-$80. I wasn't there, but I heard about it from a player who was. The suspect bet out on the turn, and a guy (who is constantly pulling angles and minor cheats) raised with some other players in the pot. It turned out that the angler's raise didn't make any sense, unless it was to help the bettor, though I don't remember the exact hand and board now. A few minutes later, a stack of chips passed from suspect to the angler for no apparent reason, so it was suspected to be payback for the raise.
The brothers played poorly, but played together, and rose from $20-$40 and $40-$80 to $300-$600 in just a couple years. And then one of them won a major tournament.
When the old Crystal Park spread a $60-$120 for the first time, I left the game for fear of collusion and spotters standing behind the players. The game "felt" very wrong, but a feeling is not much to go on. However, two weeks later, the 60-120 game was closed down permanently by management due to collusion by a known team of colluders, which a casino host had brought in and set the game up around.
As I have only mentioned a casino that is no longer in business (not under the same management, anyway), I hope Mason doesn't blow an O-ring about smearing the reputation of that deceased casino.
-Abdul
For your information, when Crystal Park went bankrupt they didn't pay us $700 that they owed for book purchases. The place had a lot of problems and it is probably best that it is under completely different management. By the way, I have only been in it once, and that was just for a few minutes.
I observed this same type of collusion in the 80-160 stud in LV. That is why I stopped playing the game.
Brett
I think you guys that are citing these cheating examples are all smoking something that is a little questionable. If cheating occurs in a Casino it is a very rare event. Certainly any activity that involves money as the prize must be viewed cautiously. But to imply, as Abdul and 3 Bet do, that cheating is wide spread does no one that plays poker any good at all. Mason has stated in the past that it is highly unlikely that someone will be cheated in a Poker Game in a reputable Casino. My experience echo's that view. Why has Malmuth not made the same statement here? Mason, I hope you are not letting that bully Abdul frighten you! I'm sure it's not 3 Bet. Even I'm not afraid of him! Stand up and tell us what you believe is the current state of affairs in casino poker with regards to cheating.
Vince.
You can beat up on an Old Lady playing poker. You can lie. You can imply and misrepresent. You can bush wack. You can steal. You can bust your grandmother in a pot. So how far away is cheating. I am not too worried. You shoot at me, I shoot back.
My position on cheating has not changed. I do not see any evidence of the type of organized collusion that some people in the past have claimed.
I do see an increase in angles which will be bad for the game in the long run. For example, stalling for excessive periods of time in an effort to see what the players behind you will do has become epidemic at middle limit hold 'em in Las Vegas.
This ploy would catch me by the nose.
Post by Mark K. raises an issue, I have wondered about, upon discovering, for example, a 7-club marked. I have always wondered why a person would mark a small card. I know it is done, because I have discovered so many of them. Now, I see Mark's post where he says, in effect, that *all of one suit* were marked. How would such a scheme--marking all of one suit--work in Holdem, or Stud?
(There is absolutely something going-on, with marking smaller cards. I have observed it happening (in Vegas), off and on, for over fifteen years.)
The guy to my right who called the marking to everyone's attention told me that the marking was done by suit, again I think he said clubs were marked here. Although I recall someone else at the table talking about how it was both black suits, marks on the left and right halves of the tops. This would be a huge advantage (right?) to know that your opponent had a club and spade, or no club and no spade... cards were red...and if marked selectively (high cards in the corner) then wow this is an advantage.
I asked the dealer for the deck in this case, he laughed and told me that I could have 10 regular decks, but not this deck. Not suprised.
And I now always touch the tops of the cards when I play to check, I cannot help myself.
Mark the K
Perhaps if ypu know someone has small cards...you also know they don't have big cards.
After all if the big cards are marked, and you were to play mostly powerful starting hands...you'd be holding the marked cards! (Which other observant people might notice and fold against too.)
Thus small marked cards serve to point out the opponent has small cards...or doesn't have big cards. Also, if the small cards are marked the big ones aren't...just as easy to identify...right?
Strikes me as a photo-negative sort of approach or a lame attempt at a spy-counter spy escalation of methodology.
Just a guess.
By the way, how is it that you've discovered so many of them. Are they blantantly marked? And if so, in what manner?
Frank,
The cards were lightly 'indented' with a sharp fingernail...across the top/bottom edges.
I was just curious about what others have seen.
Mark
Its a long drive to Tunica. Past the Gateway Arch, past the New Madrid earthquake museum, past the "throwed roll" cafe, and past Elvis' house.
Park the car, check in, throw the bags in the room, and I'm in the Horseshoe poker room within 15 minutes. 10-20 is full with a list, so I wait in a 4-8 game. Fold the first 9 hands and they start to call a new 10-20 table. I rush over to mark a seat and its perfect. Get the #8 seat, against the wall, under the pictures of the previous WSOP winners. (Maybe Huck will help me) I fold the first 20 hands in a row, 2 players go to the main game, 2 others to 20-40, and another 2 go to a satellite. The game breaks. Having played 30 hands in this room, I now ask for a buffet comp. Leave hat and $400 in chips on table and go eat for 30 minutes---its seafood night. Come back stuffed, and as walking up to the poker room, see that the game is back on. Get a little closer---and theres someone in my chair. The seat I wanted is taken by this guy with silver hair and a black jacket. I look at him and then realize that his picture is on the wall too. Its Jack Keller. Where's my hat? And my $400 in chips? (Note: It did not occur to me to wonder why he is playing 10-20) I walk up to the table, didn't say anything because he is in the hand, and then watch him make a pot sized bet of $500. He is holding 4 cards. Its pot limit Omaha. Floorman shows me where he moved the 10-20 game to.
10-20 is good on a friday night. An inexperienced dealer gets corrected twice by a "new to the table player" young lady who really knows her stuff. Turns out she's a dealer from the Grand and she tells me of the games there. I will encounter her twice more on this trip.
Favorite 10-20 hand of the trip:(yes, I finally played one) Ad Kh in late position--I raise. 4 see the flop,of Kd 3d 7s BB bets and I raise. One other calls. Turn is a small d. BB bets again and I raise again. Just two of us now. River is another small d. BB checks, I bet, and he raises me (!). I reraise, he calls, I show and win. Such an easy game! What could he have had? Qd Qx?
After midnite, I go next door (65 steps) to the Gold Strike to play their 3-6 Omaha. I heard it was great, I read it was wild, but it was nothing special.
Sat 9am---back in the 10-20 (the game is very tight--pot calling kettle, black). Flop a set of 6s against a guy called "Chicago Bob". I bet, he calls. Turn is nothing, I bet, he calls. I say "I just can't shake you". River is a nothing, I bet, he calls, I win. He then rags at me about making an unethical, taunting comment. Could have diffused the situation, but instead say; "If you're from Chicago, you should be used to it". Now he's mad---so I leave with his $60.
Went to the Grand and played 2-5-10-10. Folded the first 45 consecutive hands (my new record). Finally play a couple and lose, fold a few more and leave.
Played a wild 6-12 game at the Gold Strike. The game is great, but I lose big. Two young off duty dealers in the game (recently from East Tennessee State--if there really is such a school) were the highlights. Both smart, knowledgable, aggressive, but surprisingly selective. They hadn't yet read 21st Cent HFAP, or been to the 2+2 site, so I recommended both. One of them tried a check-raise bluff on me. It was well thought out and well executed. QQx on board and he check-raised the turn after limping and check calling. He had me spotted (cautious) as a good target for it too. I just called him down on turn and river. What can I say---Tourist On Tilt. Anyway, two good guys. They both dealt at my table the next day at 10-20 and were good dealers too.
To be continued---
Sunday, played 10-20 most of the afternoon and early evening. Met Linda Johnson--a real nice lady. Met Ken Lambert. Saw Jack Binion walk thru the room. No other celebrity sightings. The tournament players are starting to show up and the games get tougher. Not really tighter-just better quality play. The 20-40 looks looser than the 10-20, but I have seen this many places in the midwest. Is this the same everywhere? It starts to occur to me that I have never been dealt AA in the state of Mississippi. Heard a good line at the table. An older southern guy( with a big drawl and drinking Old Charter) keeps getting drawn out on. He drawls to the dealer: "Honey, you've killed more cotton farmers than the boll weevil".
Went to the pool to relax, and took 21st Cent HFAP. Was in the middle of some "Malmuthian" paragraph (sample: "On the other hand, if there is a reasonable chance that he might have a reraising hand as well as the JT, then this concept may not apply, then again it still may.") when this great looking tall blond walks in. She sheds her outer wear, showing a small orange bikini and gets into the hot tub. I pretend to read, but I'm watching her. She smiles, I smile, and she asks whats that book about. (At this point I'm not really sure) I mumble something about poker and she says "Oh, well I was looking at it because one of those pictures on the back looks like my grandfather".
Late night 3-6 game at the Gold Strike, and theres an interesting discussion between two off duty dealers. One is a superstitious, charm wearing, pyramid card covering, true believer in the power of short term luck. He says: "Go ahead, read all that Sklansky stuff, it won't help" and "Can we get a deck change?" The other is the Grand dealer I met earlier and she turns out to be the "hard bitten realist" and points out all the logic defects.
Monday the tournament starts at noon. I am there a half hour early to watch the show. Its the usual hubbub and commotion. The announcer is trying to get the cash games to quit so they can finish the tourney set up--when--at 11:51 am,the 4-8 game hits the $48,000 bad beat jackpot. One table is 8 handed and the other table has 10. Pandamonium breaks out. The cardroom staff and the tournament staff handle this really well, and the first event starts only a little late. I had played 10-20 with the guy who "won" the hand, and he was just killing time in the 4-8 game. He had AK and the other person had AQ. Flop was AAx, Turn was Q, River was K. Tournament had about 170 entries the first day, about 90 the middle days and 60-ish for the championship event. It seemed well organized with plenty of announcements and no major problems. But what do you expect, when my friend Kathy Hudson is helping to run it. Play 10-20 with the people busting out of the tourney early, and finally get my AA. Raise and win--no flop.
Monday night walking by the Craps pit and realize that every (correctly formatted) trip report needs a sidelight on gambling. Bet $5 on Don't Pass. The shooter gets a point and then 7s out. Do the same thing with the next shooter. The dealers take everyones money and pay me. "I love this game!" Everyone at the table hates me. The stickman pushes me the dice and I stay on NO. Toss two white chips to him for a "two way aces" bet. My come out roll is an 11. I lose my bets and the dealers toke bet. Everyone else at the table wins and yells. I pass the dice and walk away. +$3 for Craps. Cha-ching.
Late night 3-6 at Gold Strike and this game is wild. We can't throw the chips in fast enough. We are pounding the beer rounds faster than the dealers change too.
Its tuesday morning. Check out of the hotel, watch the start of the Omaha tournament, and its time to go home. Head north for about 2 miles and decide to try that 2-5-10-10 at the Grand again. Its a real nothing game with people talking sports, reading the paper, not paying attention, and I'm stuck about $100. New dealer comes in and its the "hard bitten realist" that I had met at the Horseshoe and the Gold Strike. She takes charge of the game and moves it along. The Grand is having some sort of drawing and every player gets a numbered ticket for each hour at the table. She gives everyone a ticket except me and says "Must be present to win--and you won't be here". She deals me a 7s 6s on the button. 5 callers so I call. Flop is a K 9 8 rainbow. One bet and a call to me, so I raise (classic old "free card" bit). Turn is a 5! They check to me and I bet. River is an A. Early bets and I raise. Win most of my money back. So, thanks Karen "the realist" --you're my favorite dealer. Its a long drive home from Tunica.
Poker Recap: 45 hours table time. 22 hours of 10-20 for +$320, but I lost most of it back in lower limit games, and spent most of the rest on beer and a Horseshoe shirt from the gift shop. I played well and concentrated at the 10-20 level and had mostly a colder than average run of cards. Maybe I'll come back during Labor Day and see if I can bluff out Diane B (from Green Bay) in the 20-40.
Postscript: Kinda tired and mopey the rest of the week at work. Show up at the hometown saturday night game and get really hot cards and bet aggressively. +55 big bets in a 5 hour session. Hmmm, enough for a Vegas trip.
Sigh. I really was expecting more of a Mike Paulle type report. You know, event description, entry fee, number of players, final table stats, etc. AT least who won and how much. Oh well, I guess you get what you pay for. Is the shirt one of those Hawaiian-type things?
Brett
Brett,
I'm sorry that I am such a continuing disappointment to you. Just wait till I get in that Bellagio 15-30 game with you----You'll really be disappointed then.
I think Mike Paulle was in the buffet line in Tunica.
Abe
What happened in the tourneys? Who won the main event and how much? What was the structure for the tournaments that you entered?
Your posts were entertaining. I'm waiting for part 3.
Great report, but made me sad again that I couldn't be there. Old Southern gentlemen probably was "Billy Turner" especially if he mumbled more than he talked. He's a love, good for the game, but plays well even when drinking which is most of the time.
Hope you do come back to Tunica for Labor Day! I will be there from Thursday 9/2 through Tuesday morning 9/6. I will be firmly planted in the $20-40 or $10-20 depending upon lineup for 16-18 hours a day and loving every minute of it. Go ahead and *try* a bluff against "Diane from Green Bay". But be prepared to take a few raises. If I am playing I am raising!
Diane
Yeah---Billy. One of the dealers called him Billy. He "spanked up" the game, moved to pot limit, and took his Old Charter with him.
Re: Labor Day. Well, gee Diane; if you're that tough, maybe I'll just stick to 4-8.
Abe- I would be VERY surprised if Billy went to Pot Limit, I have never seen him do that...............but again different games were being spread due to the tournament. Who knows you *may* be right.
I CAN be tough and I can be very easy.............you will just have to figure out yourself which mode I am in at the time. Sometimes I play $4-8 also, so you may not be safe anywhere. Guaranteed though, whatever game I am in, if I am in, I am raising. I don't "call" much unless there is a check raise coming..........Know if I could only consistently figure out when it is time to put the brakes on.
Diane from Green Bay
Any thoughts out there?
Mark Weitzman.
For those who don't know, since he is so low key, Mark Weitzman just may be the best poker player in the world. Several times over the past few years people have come up to me and asked "Who the sucker playing with Chip and Doyle." That's no sucker," I've pointed out. That's Mark Weitzman. He's the little short guy who tends to be quiet and low key, but plays extremely well.
It is a proven fact that Mark Weitzman only has won money because he is lucky at catching cards. i pity the day he finds out that making trips with a pair is not even money and the nut flush does not come every other round. he has Mason completely fooled:).
Can he beat the 2-4 game on Yahoo!
Right now, David Chiu would have to get a lot of votes, because the TOC was of a slow enough and varied format that there was room for a good player to succeed without the usual crushing tourney time constraints.
However, not all of the games were played for the TOC and not all of the cash players qualified for the TOC (not to mention a few that didn't show). My dark horse vote is for O'Neil Longson who is an extremely good and often unnoticed player at all games, live or tourney. Because of his style of play, Eskimo Clark is one of the most dangerous threats to win a tourney in any game (some would also note a dangerous threat to go broke in a live game).
Otherwise, it would depend on the game. In NL, my vote is Eric Seidel or TJ Cloutier, and as shown by the TOC, Doyle Brunson isn't over the hill (Noel Furlong is a good player, but despite winning the WSOP, he didn't play as well as Eric). PL HE would probably see David Ulliot and Lucy Rokach at or near the top of the pack.
In Omaha-8, Scotty Nguyen for the tourneys and Ray Zee for the money. Omaha High: the authors Bob Ciaffone and Reuben Stewart, because not only are they well-known, but they got that way through their Omaha play (Bob C. notes in his book that O'Neil is a top player at this game too, and someone like him who can play limit/NL/PL at a top level, in all games, is indeed one of the most dangerous players in the world).
In Razz, since it isn't played much anywhere, you'd have to give a nod to Linda Johnson for her tournament play and David Sklansky for past performance. Stud-8 is usually considered the domain of "Miami" John Cernuto, but there are more good players out there now than when he won the title.
Limit hold-em would be a tough call, there are so many good players, if you were talking tournaments, it would probably be Barbara Enright, if you were talking a cash game, just based on knowledge, I'd guess either Malmuth or Sklansky.
I'd rather not talk about 7-stud, because I haven't played anyone in years that I felt threatened by -- thus, I couldn't even name someone that I thought was the best 7-stud player, although Chip Reese has long been mentioned as being the best and there's a gaggle of tourney winners out there who would also like to claim that title. One thing I do know, whoever it is, doesn't live in Southern California.
I would have to agree with what many top writers, including Mike Sexton and the 2+2 crowd have often written: the best players aren't the tournament players, they are the side game players. Many of them are pretty much unknown since they don't aspire for fame, they just want the money. Besides shouldn't the best player be decided on who can play all around? How about Johnny Chan? He hasn't played many tournaments of late, but wouldnt you think he would be at least as successful as the top players, if not better? Every time I see him playing its the side game with the highest limits in the room...that has to say something of his skill, not to mention where the money is.
Chan was too easy, yes I agree. While it's true that not all good tournament players are good in side games, most of the names on my list can light it up with anyone in their game. As a counterpoint, I'd like to note that there's a little deception that side-game-only players engage in and that is to believe that they meet the best players. The top tourney players didn't gain their skills merely by playing $20 tourneys on Wednesday nights at the Orleans -- as in all endeavors, being well-rounded in experience pays off.
With the foregoing post Earl has once again proved that he hasn't got a clue.
Nice insightful post, Jimmy who?
In poker, only one thing counts, in the bank (and/or in the "box") large amounts. The full-time professional poker player who has extracted the most amount of money from the poker tables during the past 20 years - and who has successfully held on to that money - should be considered the greatest poker player in the world. I say this because money is ultimately how the game is scored. What good is having hundreds of tournament titles if one is broke (like many big name tournament players are rumored to be)? What good is respect from peers if one can't hold on to his winnings? What good is having the best all around skills if there's no money in the bank to prove it? What good is having a lot of knowledge if that knowledge cannot be used to produce the suff that buys things? Unfortunately, we'll never know who the greatest player is since winnings (and especially losses) are personal secrets. From what I read and from the rumors that I have heard, these guys may be candidates: Chip Reese, Erik Seidel, O'Neil Longson, Ken Flaton, Dan Harringon, Doyle Brunson, Huck Seed, Howard Lederer, David Grey. But we'll never know.
I agree with your premises to a large degree. A couple of caveats, however.
20 years is too long. Some players are great, and have been for the last few years, but just don't have 20 years under their belts. It seems incorrect to completely exclude them. Other players were great for much of the last 20 years, but age has caught up with them. They may be fish today, and for the last few years.
They need to hold onto the money, but only at the poker table. If someone is so good that they can regularly beat the toughest lineups of poker players, but they blow all their money on jewelry, they still would be the best poker player. If they're going broke in other games (e.g., craps, sports betting, etc.), they may not be the best gambler, but still may be the best poker player.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
To be a good poker player, one must also be a good money manager away from the table in addition to being a good player at the table. A poker career does not exist in isolation. It has to be integrated into the other parts of a pro's life. Of course, I perfectly realize that one's behaviors, actions, and results at the table should be given more weight than away from the table factors in determining who the best player is.
The most money in the bank? Thats quite an arbitrary number. What if Johnny Chan averages $300/hour playing, but plays about 500 hours a year because thats all he can get in at the limits he wants? Does that make him a lesser player than Ken Flaton because Skyhawk plays lower limits and tournaments, but still averages say $100/hour playing 2000 hours a year? Skyhawk wins more money in this scenario, but works much harder at it. In the meantime Chan is off making his multitude of investments and running his businesses making money during that 1500 hours he didnt stay at the tables. Skyhawk has more money in the bank directly as a result of poker, but Chan has more money in the bank period! Lets face it this is an impossible question to ask because there is no right answer. One man (or woman) might be better than a certain player, but that doesnt mean the other player might not do things to make him win more money overall. If I make $50/hour playing 20-40 and you make $35/hour doing the same, does that make me a better player if you are playing in the much tougher Vegas games while I am lighting up the easy California games? When it comes down to it there are quite a few great players out there that all can in a way have a piece of this title, but when it comes down to it, there is an elite level of world class players, and all of them are highly successful and get the big money year after year and that is all that matters. If you are best or 7th best, you still are doing quite well financially, at least when just poker is considered.
For the best thais I vote for Tab and another guy people call him water walker. For korean should be jimmy jimmy. I think david chiu is just another lucky player.
Having played with Chiu when he was a dealer in CO, I would have agreed with you a few years ago. But how can you say that someone who has won close to $1,000,000 in the last three or four years is just lucky?
Brett
Yeah I would have to agree. He seems to do so well in limit hold'em events, a field I can't think of too many people being as successful as him in. From the few times I have played against him he seems to be a very patient player at times, then aggressive and attacking at others. Hard to beat someone like that when they mix it up. His sense of knowing where he is at in a hand seems to be very strong and of course the hand at the TOC just reinforces that. Then again it seems most of his success and traits are in the tournaments; so can we really call him the best player? There must be others winning more money than him that few have heard of because they stick to the big money side games.
I am planning a trip to LV for the Superbowl, I have never been to LV but would like to know if there will be some good action at the poker tables? If so dose anyone have any good suggestion for the Superbowl in LV?
Thanks Walleye < ----o---
the poker rooms that have big sports books are the ones that get the best action during big betting events.
Bellagio/Mirage are pretty crazy during superbowl. Unfortunately, when over capacity, the wait lists can be many hours long, and only professionals are willing to wait that long to get into a game. Pick the hours that you play carefully. 4-9 am Saturday and Sunday morning will likely be best. The whole month of January is just great for poker, as merchants and restauarant owners are then loaded with cash and yet their business is slow and they can take some time off. Superbowl weekend is just icing on the cake.
-Abdul
Unless you really want to watch the game, the livest games are during the Super Bowl. Unfortunately I am a lifelong Broncos fan so I haven't been able to play recently, but during SB XXXI I was playing and just keeping an eye on the game because I had no significant wagers on the game and didnt really care either way who won. Most people are paying no attention to poker and its a wonder that they are playing. The pros are off watching the game because they cant get enough betting on the game and all the side bets on the game so its a pretty live open game often with people who are stuck for the weekend and desperate to get even by that night. I was at the Mirage that day and in a 20-40 game that was just wide open. Better yet, after scores, some players felt "richer" since their bets were in better shape and wouldn't you know they played like it, gambling it up. Obviously you can't be that into the game yourself, but I noticed that very little psychological play was going on probably because of the diverted attention. It was lots of bet if I have it, fold if I dont. Its true though, lots of money is around that weekend, but the pros know it and are taking up lots of chairs too. Its also a big time for the pros because play is generally pretty tight to start the year with New Years resolutions plus paying off holiday bills and this is about the time the games begin getting back to normal so the pros seem a little hungrier by then too. Worst thing is that with the crowding, you can't really jump into many games looking for a good one since the list for another can be long.
Hiya,
I was in LV a few years ago during the SuperBowl.
I am not a sports bettor, only one in my family who isn't, but I could not believe the number of bets everyone at the table had on each and every crazy prop...you know: Under/over on the first qtr, how long it would take to play the first set of downs (just kidding)....etc etc etc.
The poker game was very crazy, people were going nuts on the game, the superbowl, not the poker game.
Mark
Does anyone know what the sailing schedule of the Chicago area riverboats is (especially those in Indiana)? I always get sick and start steaming when the boats move. I asked the concierge at the Empress about this, but she just gave me the boarding schedule, which obviously doesn't correspond to the actual times the boat is in motion.
Greetings:
Due to the fact that a new casino will eventually be opened a hop, skip, and a jump from Chicago O'Hare, Illinois changed the requirements for cruising... Hence, there are now none. Soo, good luck!!
Joe
Get sick? Start steaming? If you get sick, from being on one of those "cruises", the auto or bus in which you go to the boat will make you violently ill. So you will never make it to the boat.
Hey, I don't play cards in the bus or car, either.
I will be in Colorado Springs next week and am interested in playing 3-6 to 10-20 hold'em.
Any recommendations?
Thanks.
You should start planning some other activities.
Brett
The only casino poker near the Springs is in the former mining town of Cripple Creek, maybe an hour out of town (I've never been their so ask locals). Unfortunately, your lowest limit exceeds that allowed by the state's regretable "limited gaming" act, which caps all bets at $5. So they play $2-5 hold'em (one $2 blind, 2-5 on all rounds, 5-raise max).
10-20 at the med club....6-12 at the hopsing...ask around in CC.
Posted by MICHAEL IP address 206.141.246.204 on August 08, 1999 at 16:32:16:
THIS REALLY CAN MAKE YOU EASY MONEY!! IT WORKS!!! BUT YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW IT TO A LETTER FOR IT TO WORK!!!! A little while back, I was browsing through newsgroups, just like you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you could make thousands of dollars within weeks with only an initial investment of $6.00! So I thought," Yeah, right, this must be a scam", but like most of us, I was curious, so I kept reading.
Anyway, it said that you send $1.00 to each of the 6 names and address stated in the article. You then place your own name and address in the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article in at least 200 newsgroups. (There are thousands) No catch, that was it. So after thinking it over, and talking to a few people first, I thought about trying it. I figured what have I got to lose except 6 stamps and $6.00, right? Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! Then I invested the measly $6.00. Well GUESS WHAT!!... within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon, but the money just kept coming in. In my first week, I made about $25.00. By the end of the second week I had made a total of over $1,000.00! In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it's still growing. This is now my fourth week and I have made a total of just over $42,000.00 and it's still coming in rapidly. It's certainly worth $6.00, and 6 stamps, I have spent more than that on the lottery!!
Let me tell you how this works and most importantly, why it works....also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope to prevent thievery. Next, place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name and address, and a $1.00 bill. What you are doing is creating a service by this. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses:
#1)Grant P.O.Box 703394 New Smyrna Beach, FL 32170
#2) Andy 970 Worton Park Drive Mayfield Village, OH 44143
#3) Emod #9 1274 emery place v7j1r3 N. Van B.C. Canada
#4) Michael 1521 Cambridge Drive Kalamazoo, MI 49001 USA
#5) Anita 49 Forest Lake Rd Hamilton, New Zealand
#6) Ray 71 Aurora Tce Hamilton, New Zealand
STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc...) and add YOUR Name as number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at least 200 newsgroups. (I think there are close to 24,000 groups) All you need is 200, but remember, the more you post, the more money you make! ---DIRECTIONS -----HOW TO POST TO NEWSGROUPS------------ Step 1) You do not need to re-type this entire letter to do your own posting. Simply put your cursor at the beginning of this letter and drag your cursor to the bottom of this document, and select 'copy' from the edit menu. This will copy the entire letter into the computers memory. Step 2) Open a blank 'notepad' file and place your cursor at the top of the blank page. From the 'edit' menu select 'paste'. This will paste a copy of the letter into notepad so that you can add your name to the list. Step 3) Save your new notepad file as a .txt file. If you want to do your postings in different sittings, you'll always have this file to go back to. Step 4) Use Netscape or Internet explorer and try searching for various newsgroups (on-line forums, message boards, chat sites, discussions.) Step 5) Visit these message boards and post this article as a new message by highlighting the text of this letter and selecting paste from the edit menu. Fill in the Subject, this will be the header that everyone sees as they scroll through the list of postings in a particular group, click the post message button. You're done with your first one!
Congratulations...THAT'S IT! All you have to do is jump to different newsgroupes and post away, after you get the hang of it, it will take about 30 seconds for each newsgroup! **REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL MAKE!! BUT YOU HAVE TO POST A MINIMUM OF 200** That's it! You will begin reciving money from around the world within days! You may eventually wany to rent a P.O.Box due to the large amount of mail you will receive. If you wish to stay anonymous, you can invent a name to use, as long as the postman will deliver it. **JUST MAKE SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT.**
Now the WHY part: Out of 200 postings, say I receive only 5 replies (a very low example). So then I made $5.00 with my name at #6 on the letter. Now, each of the 5 persons who just sent me $1.00 make the MINIMUM 200 postings, each with my name at #5 and only 5 persons respond to each of the original 5, that is another $25.00 for me, now those 25 each make 200 MINIMUM posts with my name at #4 and only 5 replies each, I will bring in an additional $125.00! Now, those 125 persons turn around and post the MINIMUM 200 with my name at #3 and only receive 5 replies each, I will make an additional $626.00! OK, now here is the fun part, each of those 625 persons post a MINIMUM 200 letters with my name at #2 and they each only receive 5 replies, that just made me $3,125.00!!! Those 3,125 persons will all deliver this message to 200 newsgroups with my name at #1 and if still 5 persons per 200 newsgroups react I will receive $15,625,00! With a original investment of only $6.00! AMAZING! When your name is no longer on the list, you just take the latest posting in the newsgroups, and send out another $6.00 to names on the list, putting your name at number 6 again. And start posting again. The thing to remember is, do you realize that thousands of people all over the world are joining the internet and reading these articles everyday, JUST LIKE YOU are now!! So can you afford $6.00 and see if it really works?? I think so... People have said, "what if the plan is played out and no one sends you the money? So what! What are the chances of that happening when there are tons of new honest users and new honest people who are joining the internet and newsgroups everyday and are willing to give it a try? Estimates are at 20,000 to 50,000 new users, every day, with thousands of those joining the actual internet. Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will work.
Sincerely, Michael
As I said in the other section "PLEASE REMOVE THIS POST".
REMOVE THIS SHIT ASAP!
I was just wondering if anyone had an opinion about D.R. Sherer's "No Fold 'Em Hold 'Em". Good/bad/ugly? Thanks for any feedback.
James Flames
James,
You may want to power search RGP using www.deja.com. I do recall a few reviews and they tended to be negative.
Regards,
Rick
I think this book is hard to review because its definitely focused on one type of game. This book might be more in the genre of Lee Jones and winning at lower limits. Any expert players or even middle limit players probably won't be too impressed because it isnt often that you have to deal with 6 and 7 handed pots like the book describes. Some good insight though if you are stuck like many of us in California, trying to make aces hold up with 6-way capped before the flop action. Much of it might be a bit simplistic, but it has some basic theory that you can use to approach situations that often come up in very loose games.
The book is pretty useless.
Someone mentioned it might be like Lee Jones' book for CA low limit. Lee's book provides a much more complete foundation to start playing in these games while No Foldem is mostly just some wild ideas that are IMO just wrong.
The only possible value is that you can have a complete collection of what some other players might be thinking about and also it is humorous to read in some places.
David
I didn't like the book either. Thus I don't recommend it.
New in town need to know the best places to play in san diego area. Thanks....
I moved away from SD at the end of last year, so my info is outdated. However, I strongly preferred Oceans 11 when I lived there. They have a variety of 3-6 games (HE, Omaha8, crazy pineapple, HE hi/lo), 1-4 stud hi/lo, and HE at limits of 4-8 kill, 9-18, 20-40, and PL.
I hear they now often have 40-80 HE (and don't have the PL game anymore), and used to have a 15-30 stud hi/lo game. It is a nice room, decent cheap food, and friendly employees.
Also recommended is the Village Club in Chula Vista. Small room with fewer games to choose from, and a limit of 8 players per table, but friendly. Also, I hear you can now play HE at the Lucky Lady cardroom in SD itself (used to be limited to lowball only games). I hear they have the PL HE game now.
Hopefully, John Feeney will respond, as he is still there and knows IT ALL.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Oceans11 is a great place to play, all limits from 3/6 to pot limit. (Oceanside)
The various Indian Casinos, mainly Viejas, offer a lot of action around the clock, but I personally don't support Indian Gaming, and don't think others should. (Alpine)
Well most people could care less about supporting Indian gaming, but I personally try to support Oceans 11 and the whole statewide ban on smoking. The one thing I have noticed is that since all the Indians have the other forms of gambling that card rooms dont, the action is usually much better at regular card rooms. Just like in Vegas, the real gamblers would rather just get it out there into a slot and get that fix as quick as possible. Its like slots are a drug that is sent to you with an IV, while poker is a drug that you have to take orally with meals. Therefore, the action isnt quite as good, and sometimes you find your game filled with seniors out to eat the buffet so stick to Oceans 11 unless you live in East County.
Well, I'm not sure how I feel about having someone whose e-mail address is "grimreaper" coming to town, but...
Greg's and the other posts cover most of what you need. I'll just add that the Oceans-11 40-80 game is now spread Wednesday through Friday, with additional days likely to come as it solidifies. The reports of the demise of the O-11 pot-limit game appear to have been premature. They've shifted it to the Lucky Lady a few times, but it was going at O-11 the last couple of days. Don't know more than that.
Lucky Lady has hold'em at limits up to 6-12 daily. As of a couple of weeks ago they were also spreading 20-40 on Wednesday and Friday.
I don't go to the Indian casinos because they allow smoking, but I know there's still a fair amount of poker at Sycuan and Viejas. Sycuan only has limits through about 12-24, I think. And Viejas now struggles to get a 20-40, if it does get it. This is undoubtedly due to the availability of non-smoking cardrooms and poor management of the Viejas Cardroom. (e.g., when you drop 4$ in your small games, it's tough for players to win enough to build bankrolls and move up the limits. Refusals to spread a second game without *tons* of waiting players, while four silent props sat in the main game was another problem in my experience.)
John Feeney
I would also vote for Oceans 11 and the Village club.
Just FYI --- Pechanga is the only indian casino that is non-smoking and spreads a decent 6-12 game on weekends (but no high limits)
Has anyone written an essay or anything interesting on how to play at a table where Overs are being used (whether or not you are a participant)?
its been discussed on the forum maybe you can find it in the archives(happy hunting)
basically
put big bettors on your right you can play tighter because of smaller ante draws may cost more on later rounds think about how to knock out smaller players with good hands keep smaller players in with draws dont play overs if the big bettors are on your left if you are not a participent you probably are not as good as the others playing and may be better off in another game.
thanks for the input....although it looks like it is basically impossible to search the archives as there is no easy mechanism to search. but thanks anyways.
Welcome to the impossible.
Paul
Messages Posted or Last Modified Between Jan 1998 and Dec 1998
Containing Any of the Keywords: overs
8 of 291 Messages Displayed
Re: Overs reference and San Diego tip, was kills and stuff, was Tucson Poker (Desert Diamond) carlos -- Thursday, 2 July 1998, at 11:10 a.m. Re: Overs reference and San Diego tip, was kills and stuff, was Tucson Poker (Desert Diamond) Greg Raymer (FossilMan) -- Wednesday, 1 July 1998, at 9:32 p.m. Re: Overs reference and San Diego tip, was kills and stuff, was Tucson Poker (Desert Diamond) John Feeney -- Wednesday, 1 July 1998, at 9:06 p.m. Re: Overs reference and San Diego tip, was kills and stuff, was Tucson Poker (Desert Diamond) carlos -- Wednesday, 1 July 1998, at 7:23 p.m. Re: Overs reference and San Diego tip, was kills and stuff, was Tucson Poker (Desert Diamond) John Feeney -- Wednesday, 1 July 1998, at 4:32 p.m. Re: kills and stuff, was Tucson Poker (Desert Diamond) carlos -- Tuesday, 30 June 1998, at 8:09 p.m. Re: kills and stuff, was Tucson Poker (Desert Diamond) John Feeney -- Tuesday, 30 June 1998, at 3:17 a.m. Re: kills and stuff, was Tucson Poker (Desert Diamond) Jim Geary -- Monday, 29 June 1998, at 4:58 p.m.
Good job brother Paul. I think though that that thread may only have had a brief reference to overs in it. (Don't remember though.) Anyway, there's more. Below is a link to a post I wrote about it. I must say though that Ray packed an amazing amount of info about it into his brief post above. I'm almost persuaded to drop capitals and periods. I know there have been some other good posts on it too. I seem to recall at least one by Louie Landale.
John Feeney
John,
You're right I think Ray was a compacter in one of his past life's. It's funny you give a problem that you think will take a whole page three sentences later he whips out his answer and it sometimes takes me weeks to decipher. But that why he's who he is.
Brother Paul
I want to warn others who, like me, trust 2Plus2 publications because of the awesome quality of Mason and Slansky.
Poker Myth and Poker Fact is a waste of money. It has no, not one, none, redeeming qualities. It leverages the reputation of 2+2 with out paying off on the quality that comes with their pricing.
What a waste.
Comments welcome
The title of the book is POKER FARCE AND POKER TRUTH
I published PokerFarce and PokerTruth simply because I thought it was unusual material and that I liked some of it, especially the history, a lot. It is a very unusual book, definitely drags in a few spots, will not teach you to play poker better, and gets very mixed reactions from readers. The book was an experiment for us and is part of our program to let some unknown authors have a chance. The jury is out as to whether we will ever do another one like it. But I'm glad it is part of our Two Plus Two family even if it does poorly for us.
Aside from the style being a less than smooth in spots, overused references to "2-7"and the WWII pieces not being as careful with choosing poker terms as I thought they should, Iliked the book. It was very amusing in parts, and I'm glad I bought it for an Amtrak trip I had.
I think the price tag comes with the territory - gambling books which are not "how to" books tend to be pretty expensive, as the audience is pretty narrow and the costs of producing books are mostly fixed.
Con Jel Co published "blackjack diary" and, though the appendix has all the how-to's the same as every other BJ book, the point of the book was providing some humanity to a genre full of books of logic, math and how-to's (not to mention books filled with erroneous nonsense).
The same thing happened to that book - for weeks the free pages on BJ21 were full of people ripping on the book for what it was. There was no deception in the sale of either book - they were not strategy books.
I would welcome more books like "Poker Farce" - but I would like to see the quality of the writing somewhat improved - this is one of the books (though not by Hemmingway) we can afford from all the money the strategy books make us. Thus they should be deserving of an "A" from an English teacher. Nonetheless, I am happy I bought it.
Anyway, everything else from Two Plus Two is first class all the way.
I sure am glad you guys are around.
I have been playing in the 6-12 HE game at the Oaks in Emeryville, a game I find not great, but beatable. I would like to move up, but the next step is 15-30 there. I can not readily observe that game and was told it is difficult. Can anyone comment on the quality of that game?
Horrible game most of the time...avoid it except on Friday nights, and then of course the list is long. None of the games at the Oaks are really any good compared to what you can find at other Bay Area clubs. Just proves my point about how the lowest raked game is almost always the toughest because it just seems to draw out all the tight players, and there is no doubt the Oaks has the cheapest games in the area, if not California. I would say the 15-30 at Bay 101 is usually about on par with a 6-12 at the Oaks as far as action and profitability goes. If you want to step up, go up to San Pablo and play the 8-16, thats a much better game than the 6-12 Oaks game.
I second WildBill here. Another game you might want to consider is the 9-18 at Lucky Chances in Colma.
carlos
funny, last week i played there for the first time in a year (i've been going to colma), and it seemed absolutely incredible. i plan on going again.
Well I will say that they have lots of good stud games there, but I personally would rather play HE. The 9-18 stud that goes occasionally there is reputed to be one of the best games you can find. And of course even the tightest games can run into an action period on a weekend night if the conditions are right. Just find a game with a drunk or two in it and the Oaks does have those around on some Friday and Saturday nights.
Where do I (or even is it possible to) play holdem in Calgary?
You can play at the Elbow Casino (3-6, 10-20 on weekends), there is a daily 20-40 game at the Cash Casino, and there is a private poker club as well. I don't know the name of the club, but if you played at the Cash Casino I'm sure one of the 20-40 players could give it to you.
I've heard that the new casino in North East Calgary (ABS?) acquired a lot of the low-limit poker traffic. However, that was many months ago, so I'm not sure if it is still true.
Couple seats left. Let me know if your interested in a friendly game.
Andy
andy_dep@hotmail.com
I am curious about anyone's thoughts about living in Vegas. It seems like a pretty exciting place...any ideas?
I had the pleasure of staying in Las Vegas for a 2 month period from June 97-August 97. I played poker (just HE) for a "living" during that time and stayed at Budget Suites (behind Stardust). I am a Canadian and 25 yo and at that time in my life it was perfect for me. I was "lucky" that I came out almost even for the entire duration. I spent too much having "fun" and did not take my poker winnings and reinvest them. If I had enough discipline then maybe I`d had come out ahead further.
I guess you could say I got caught up in the glitter. It is exciting and I think if you consider yourself a good player and you have a sufficiant bankroll then I`d say go for it! However, I would caution that you would be entering a sea of sharks and their are only so many fish to eat!
I`d be interested in hearing you final outcome. In the meantime, if you`d like further information of a more specific nature please just ask!
I would love to live in Las Vegas. However, my wife disagrees, so that is pretty much the end of the story.
The nice places to live in Vegas are Summerlin and Green Valley. Suburbia. I prefer to live in a place where I can walk to the post office (there are basically none in Vegas, BTW), walk to the grocery, and walk to restaurants. Either a big city or small village suits me. In Vegas, you drive everywhere, and even if there were some place close enough to walk to, you'd die before you got back home. Driving isn't pleasant either, as your car soon hits 200 degrees inside if you park it in the sun.
The weather was really brutal the first couple of years I lived here. 120 degrees for several weeks in the summer, and then within a week it was like 45 degrees for the next six months. But this summer I am actually enjoying it, with temperatures typically around 100 degrees and a slight touch of humidity. I'm not sure whether I have acclimated or whether the weather is just better this summer. I'm trying to get my laptop working again so that I can do my email and netnews out by the pool. That should improve my quality of life tremendously.
The traffic has been absolutely horrible, and note that I come from L.A. and San Francisco. I'd take L.A. over Vegas traffic any day. At least in L.A., you know if you leave at 12 pm or 12 am you won't have a problem going where you want to go. Vegas has tons of construction and tons of drunks, a deadly combination. It's very common for me to witness accidents. This should improve as the major construction comes to an end.
Basically, I don't like Vegas as a place to live, but it's growing on me, though that just might be because of the recent moderate weather.
-Abdul
Don't worry Abdul, it's only because it hasn't been 120 for a week straight this summer.
Vegas is the worst place I've ever lived. I don't like it for many of the reasons that Abdul mentions. Here are a few others; the most hideous architecture ever seen, the unbroken chain of Awful Chain Fast-Food Stores on every major street, the aggressive, hostile drivers, the air pollution, the never-ending sounds of jet engines, highways, cars turned stereos, the surveillance helicopters hovering close to the rooftop with search lights on in the middle of the night at least once every ten days (and I live in a good neighborhood!) Basically, I try to NEVER leave the house!
Good points: It's cheap to live here. Your car doesn't rust prematurely.
Jessica,
I can't wait to get there now I'm down a quart of aggression, my camera is loaded for hideousness arch, and bad drivers I'M THE WORST AND FASTEST from Boston. Thank you for enlightening me on the best parts. The bad parts I like to spend money and I hope my car rusts so I can get a new one because I'm sick of looking at it.
Paul
ps:I also love tropical sweat.
you have not seen weather until you come to Baton Rouge.98 deg 100percent humidity and NO chance of rain! but we do have the softest water anywhere .a bar of soap lasts three days . and the bad beat jackpot topped 70k today
Moses,
I am thinking of going the extended stay route at the Stardust. I am familiar with the type of motel.
My question is, it is advertised as being less than a half mile from the strip.I will not have an automobile, and my question is:
that half mile walk, looks like a very small street on the map, did it appear to be safe for walking, what kind of neighborhood is it. Well lighted, etc.?
Thanks for any info you can give me.
Bob
I am assuming you are at the place on Industrial, the Budget Suites I believe it is. That area isn't the best, nor is it the worst. Generally not much going on there at night except for a few strip clubs around there and during the day lots of little businesses around there. You are pretty much next to a very nice mall and the Frontier. Its much nicer area than where most of the Budget Suites are. If all you want to do is stuff on the Strip or Downtown you will be fine without a car because the buses run all hours on the Strip, but I would think you will get sick of it all before long if that is all your world becomes.
I like to visit and play once in a while but I sure do have a problem with the dry air. I order two bottles of water every time the waitress comes by and I'm still dry in every orifice. It is the only time I can feel my contact lenses. And I usually go in the winter! Does anyone have any suggestions in how to keep from drying out?
Regards,
Rick
P.S. I concede this a pretty vapid post.
I've never live in Las Vegas, but I can recall from the coverage of the Gulf War that they instructed the soldiers to drink water beyond the point where they no longer felt thirsty.
You are not alone....I lived in El Paso Tx foe 27 years and when I went to Vegas I had no problems but for the last 10 years I have lived in Florida and when I went to Vegas ( Aug 5-8) withen 2 days I was suffering from noes bleeds (lots of nasel hemmoriging also) ... so next time I will take some kind of nasel spray to keep my nasel passages moist
I recently started playing online, posted a previous message and got very helpful info. from several of you. My own experiences seemed to prove to me that it was legitimate and there was no cheating - mainly because I've won at both planetpoker and deltacasino. I found planetpoker more competitive and not as friendly, and have settled on deltacasino.com as being my type of card room. I'm wondering now, specifically, if either Mason or David have played either or both sites, and what their feelings are on playing poker online for real money. I have read most all of your books, and follow your advise pretty much, and would like to have your input on this new medium as well. Also, I am wondering if you think online poker is just a "flash in the pan", or the wave of the future? Thanking you both in advance.
Hi Kelly,
I was interested in playing too, but I noticed (on PP at least) that you pay 6% for using a credit card for your stake. This is a lot to give up, but I wasn't eager to go to the trouble and delays of mailing 'cash'...
what did you do? What do you think? Is delta better? (I own a business, we take credit cards, I do not pay MC 6%, much less...
Mark
Delta doesnt charge the 6% and also no cashout fee like planetpoker and other casinos. I also found it much friendlier, and the games are usually really soft
The games appear to be legitimate. My brief experience with online poker has found the games to be fairly tight, not at all like low stakes california, but similiar to what one would found in Iowa or North Dakota on a weeknight.
Delta Casino has few players, often a 3/6 game isn't available or is short handed. Planet Poker is much busier, but they charge a 6% fee to bring new money into the game.
Both places have a very reasonable rake: $1 is taken out as the pot reaches $20, $40, and $60. This beats the 10% to $3 midwest rake where the dealer breaks chips into quarters and grabs money out of the pot from the get go.
You gotta love the no dealer toke, no jackpot setup.
What is the cashout fee? I didn't read anything about this on either the planet poker or their associated e-cash sites. Thanks.
i was told there was a $5 cashout fee by many of the players who have cashed out
no cashout charge on PP -- and the check arrives in a few days.
WRONG new bank PP uses now charges $15 per cashout just did it
Is that new? -- they never charged me. Did you get a wire or check? How did they charge you -- you asked for 400 and they sent you 385?
pp has some strange "random" flops dealt. 4 out of 5 flushto cards come on board about 20 times per day per table, making k-qs,or k-js much weaker...any Axo grows tremendously in value. Many plays at the 5-10 and 10-20 are completely illogical, my results have been mixed. I'm not sure that I believe that the deals are random. Several times I have been dealt same rank cards(perhaps different suits) consecutively. This is a daily occurence.
PP gives away in the FAQ the source code for their shuffling routine. randomize is a function that generates a pseudo-random seed based on the computer server time expressed in 1/100 sec. A given seed gives a given deck. The unknown is thus the computer server time. Knowing the city where PP operates one can find out the hour and the minute. After seeing his hole card and the flop one can find out the exact time (60 times 100 tries). At that point it is a piece of cake: the turn card, the river card and each player card is known. Hard to believe? Write a program that sets the clock, finds a seed and generates 10 "random numbers". Run the program a few time. Each time the same "random numbers" will come out. I hope PP one day get awake.
So in other words, it is possible to figure out what all the cards are at the table just by finding out the exact server time?
... and the server time can be deduced.
do a tracert, the previous post takes some progrmming skill. It did dawn on me that analyzing the code with a say a simple java applet...(they give it to you....modify it slightly) and crack it....perhaps this already happens with more computer literate individuals.....It does add support to some of my suspicions......perhaps this would explain illogical playat higher limits....such as a player with A-2 off in early position calling a preraised flop....a checkraised turn,,,and drawing out on a the river against KJs nut flush......this truly happened to me.
You don't need much programming skill.
Here an example in cpp.
// Compiler: Borland V4.0
#include #include #include void main()
{
struct time t;
gettime(&t);
// Round off the time (for example 10:31:22 gives always 10:00:00)
t.ti_min = 0;
t.ti_sec = 0;
t.ti_hund = 0;
settime(&t);
cout << int(t.ti_hour) << ":" << int(t.ti_min) << ":"
<< int(t.ti_sec) << "." << int(t.ti_hund) << endl;
randomize();
// Gives each hour the same 10 numbers
cout << "Ten random??? numbers from 0 to 99" << endl << endl;
for(i=0; i<10; i++)
cout << rand() % 100 << endl;
}
Can Anyone tell me the Limits, Antes, Bring-ins, and rakes for 7 card stud spread at the Bay 101 club over SF Bay way?
I may be taking a trip over there and was curious.
Also, anyone have a feel for the percentage of pro's in the room and and the tightness/looseness of the general crowd?
CA has a reputation for "wild" games so I was curious.
I WAS PLAYING IN A POT-LIMIT TOURNAMENT ANTES WERE 1200 MY STACK STOOD AT 6000, BLINDS WILL HIT ME HAND AFTER NEXT I AM HOLDING AQ, I RAISE IN TO FIVE TIGHT PLAYERS AS FIRST MAN IN.
THE TOURNAMENT STAGE HAS REACHED THE SEMI-FINAL BUT THERE IS NO PRIZE MONEY FOR JUST MAKING THE LAST TABLE. I WOULD WELCOME ANY ADVICE OR CRITICISM ON THIS PLAY.
MANY THANKS
PETER,
Peter:
I don't play pot limit but I like this play in front of 5 tight players. You're essentially gambling that no one has a big pair or AK, and that seems safe 6-handed when you have an AQ. Your real concern should be smaller pairs, and I doubt that anyone but a nearly all-in player can justify calling with one (or is there something I'm missing about PL?). A call from any other hand means you'll either suffer a suck-out or win a lot of chips; not bad. The other caveat I can think of would be the presence of a creative bluffer behind you. AQ can't stand a lot of heat.
(P.S. Unless your vision requires it, please turn off the "caps lock" function on your keyboard as upper case is difficult to read and it looks as if you are shouting).
....would he get a Dolly Lammer?
.
Hello,
I am going to be in L.A. this weekend and was wondering if anyone knows if there are satellites being spread for the Legends of Poker tournament at the Bicycle Club.
Thanks,
Carlos
I don't "know" that there are any satellites. However, I'd be willing to bet most of bankroll that there are.
Good Luck, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks for you response Greg,
I wanted to get some exposure on No-Limit HE. So maybe getting into a couple of satellites and if I do well, then I'll give it a shot at the tourney. Maybe this should go on the strategy forum, but should I play the satellites pretty agressively? As if I were at the final table of a tourney. Or are the players fairly loose and pots are contested multi-way and you might need to show the best hand?
Any thoughts (or advise) appreciated,
Thanks, Carlos
You will find all types of satellites, so you just need to pay attention and see what you end up sitting in.
However, I suspect that a typical satellite at the Legends will have 2-6 very good players, so don't expect to see too many folks giving their chips away. You will see both tight and loose play, and lots of aggressive play. Remember, there is only 1 winner in a satellite, so don't be folding just because you will survive a little longer. Only the winner gets paid, so coming in second is no good. Also, reaching heads-up play with very few chips doesn't give you much chance of winning, so take (appropriate) risks at any time.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
About every 20 minutes in the satellite area fr/ 2 PM on. They play the game of that night plus limit and N/L HE satellites all the time. I played in several last week and won one. You get tournament lammers and a little cash. When you get down to two players most of the time a deal is made to split the proceeds. Lots of players are playing lots of satellites.
I will be visiting New Orleans (my wife has a conference) in November. I was wondering about Poker in New Orleans. Any comments please would be welcome....
Also, I will be going to a conference myself with easy 4 day weekend in September stopover in LV. I would love to know where a 4-8 through 10-20 HE and O8 player can get a nice room comp. I know I can get a nice low rate at the luxor or orleans, but they rarely had a 10-20 (if at all) when I was last in town...will bellagio or mirage comp poker players to rooms?
(If I convince my brother the bigtime sports bettor to go too, then we both get a really nice comp somewhere, but then he bets min $5k max $25k. per bet!)
thanks in advance,
Mark
N.O. poker took it on the chin yesterday with the closing of the treasure chest's poker room .another slot victim,that leaves bally's and harrah's should be open by the time you visit,casino rouge (baton Rouge's only poker room 1hr nw of big easy)is revamping their room but losig a table .gulf coast poker is fading,shreveport has best La. action! there is pot limit he & omaha hi only action in lake charles.i play all La. rooms and the grands in biloxi\gport .
I just started playing at the Players Island in lake Charles. Cant beleive how loose the 10-20 hold'em is. Loosest I've ever seen. Anyways, if you see a young kid there (21 years old)on the weekends, its probably me.
Nagurski,
Thanks.
How far is this from NO?
Mark
I'm not really sure. I come from Houston so I wouldnt know. If I had to guess I'd say about 2-3 hours.
Which is generally better there at the 10-20 or 15-30 level - holdem or stud?
Is there still a NL live game on Tuesday nights? If so, is it still 5-5 blinds, $100 buy-in?
Are there any Omaha-8 games higher than the 5-10 full kill? Are they worth playing (or are they too tight to be profitable like the 5-10 sometimes is)?
J. wrote:
>Which is generally better there at the 10-20 or 15-30 level >- holdem or stud?
HE is seldom spread higher than 10-20 with a half-kill. It can vary markedly. Last Tuesday night it was the best I had ever seen. Other times, it has been TIGHT. I don't play much stud yet, but am told that the games are seldom worse than pretty good, and are often very good.
>Is there still a NL live game on Tuesday nights? If so, is >it still 5-5 blinds, $100 buy-in?
The PL and/or NL games haven't been a go for quite a while, I believe (but I don't get there on Tues. very often). There was a 3 name list for PL last Tues., and nothing the time befoe that (a few weeks ago). I wish it would go more often.
>Are there any Omaha-8 games higher than the 5-10 full kill? >Are they worth playing (or are they too
>tight to be profitable like the 5-10 sometimes is)?
Except during the major tournaments twice a year, I have never seen Omaha8 higher than 5-10 at FW (nor at Mohegan Sun). Also, I have never seen or heard of PL or NL at MS. They do have a regular 20-40 HE game which is often very good.
Come to FW for FARGO on Oct. 1-3, and I imagine there will be PL and higher HE and omaha8 games going. If you want to attend more officially, search deja.com for posts about FARGO in the rec.gambling.poker newsgroup and sign up.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think the 15-30 stud game has the best chance for being "good". The 10-20 holdem maybe good but is often bad. There are at least four regulars who make their living off that game. And another four to six while not pro, are very tough.
The 5-10 Omaha is tighter than a frogs butt. The players are tough and knowledgable.
I play two or three times a month and find the 5-10 holdem with a kill to be better than the 10-20. The 10-20 stud can be o.k.
I am planning a trip through Montana and the Dakotas and was hoping someone could give me some info on the area poker rooms. Thanks.
Randy
Randy. Even the women play good where you are going.
Does anyone out there have an idea what the legalities of opening a legitimate card room is? Things like licenses and bond money etc.?
where are you thinking? I know most of California
Kelly,
It's pretty tongue in cheek at this point. Don't expect to see it any time soon.
However, I was curious as to the regulatory issues. If it's like liquor licenses in most states, the truly prohibitive issue is the cost of the license!
However, if it's not as costly it would give me something th "shoot for".
:-)
State licenses in California are not all that much. Each city/township has their own license which can vary. They each also have their own rules and regulations re. hours of operation, games allowed, number of tables allowed etc. If you do the proper market research, there is money to be made. A rule of thumb I have found is that it takes 8 game hours a day to meet expenses ($3/hand drop) - not including wages. When you are dealing in a cash business, remember that you can't trust your own mother, and it turns into a 24/7 job for the owner. Also, you have to have food and beverage available around the clock, and even the guy winning big $$$ will grumble about paying for anything. Its a tough way to make a living, unless you really do your homework and land in the right place at the right time. If I can help in any way, feel free to email me at kellyday@netgenie.com
A lot of us posters are pushing middle age and not up with the latest and greatest in technology. But even some of us middle aged guys like music. I would guess that for most of us, the stereo is in the living room, the computer in the den or spare bedroom, and you can't crank the stereo up because the wife is watching TV or it will disturb the neighbors and so on.
Anyway, I've heard about MP3 and so on but found some of the older software troublesome and most of the legal web sites devoted to substandard music and the illegal sites focusing on a target audience of about fifteen years of age (e.g., some old fart like me asked on a MP3 newsgroup where they could get a copy of songs by Sara Brightman (she sang pop opera with Bocelli on the final song in Romanza and has a stunning voice); anyway, the smart alect kid who answered said go to www.buyitatarecordstore.com. Don't go there if you are pushing middle age - you will feal really old.
PC magazine raved about the recently released MusicMatch Jukebox 4.1 so I downloaded the free version from MP3.com. I have to say it is teriffic. One thing you can do is convert your favorite songs in your CD collection to MP3 format. An average song would take about 4 megabytes so filling the jukebox with a hundred or so songs shouldn't burden most modern hard drives. The difference between the free version and $30 upgrade is that the upgrade will convert the files using a higher sampling rate which results in a better sound at the cost of file size and speed of recording.
Getting one item makes you want another. I ordered the older but highly rated "Soundworks" three piece computer speaker set from Cambridge Soundworks (www.hifi.com) which just dropped in price to $100 (it is still $150 in stores to the best of my knowledge). If anyone is interested, I'll let you know how I like it in a week when it comes in.
Once again, this was just for fun.
Regards,
Rick
I don't know much about Music Match Jukebox, but I currently use Winamp to play my MP3's and AudioCatalyst to convert tracks to MP3 format. I love them both. The Winamp is free and has several cool features. My favorite is that it lets you keep multiple play lists, which I have organized according to the mood I am in. The AudioCatalyst costs to use, but I think it's worth it.
As far as your experience with the newsgroup, I had the exact opposite experience. I found that all the songs on the newsgroup were before my time (Beetles, Jimi Hendrix, etc. etc.).
James Flames
James,
There is more than one newsgroup as far as I can tell. Which one had that kind of stuff?
Regards,
Rick
Unfortunatly, I don't remember. It was probably 3-4 months ago. Sorry.
James Flames
x
As far as I know, only Harvey's has a poker room. Not very big, either, about half-dozen tables.
It's the only one, and it's consistently disappointing. Lots of locals, not much action etc. Usually have 3-5 tables going, and you are lucky to get a 10-20 (often 2-10 is the highest they have).
Harvey's is on South Shore. I've seen holdem (2-6 is their low limit game, saw an interest list for 6-12 one time, 10-20 others, heard they get a 1k buy in PL or NL game going some weekends), stud (1-5, don't know if any bigger), and omaha (don't know at what limits). Reasonable room although mid week the granit in that room is a bit hard to split.
Hyatt Regency on north shore has a room but I've never been to it. They specialize in Pineapple although they do have a HE once a week so I assume they spread other games. Better call ahead. I think this room is only open 1900-0200 or so during the week.
Of course if you are on west shore (Tahoe City or so) Reno is less then 90 minutes away depending on season.
thinking about buying it...i know its a compilation of articles from Card Players, and forward from Sklansky...any reviews (good/bad)?
when a good player writes a book ill bite any time. Cooke is a good player.
Ray Z wrote,
"when a good player writes a book ill bite any time. Cooke is a good player."
My only question is...Why is Cooke spelt with a capital "C"
These essays should never have been in print. Everytime I read one, I think, "I can't believe he's giving away this information." So don't buy the book. Please.
JG
I felt the same way when John Finn's strategies were revealed in print.
Brett
Aww Come on Brett....That neo-tech stuff was cheating and other such angles. I don't see a way to apply any of that stuff to a fair game.
No, Frank. You missed the point---Brett was talking about the sandwich.
Seriously, the book is wonderful. Organized by topics. Some of the columns, I recognized, some were new to me. Can be read in short "snippets" like the MM "Essays" books.
Bought mine thru ConJelCo. Great internet price, fast delivery, gets you on their mailing list. Buy the book.
Actually, I was referring to "Poker: A Guaranteed Income For Life" How could you possibly question the value of "feigning a serious tic" at the poker table?
Brett
This is an interesting take because the book doesn't contain, or purport to contain, previously undisclosed secrets or "magic bullets." In fact, I don't recall seeing anything about strategy, tactics or theory that I hadn't seen before in different contexts.
The strength and beauty of the essays, however, is that they reflect the periodic thoughts of a successful, mature professional at and away from the table. They brilliantly illustrate, IMO, the process of thinking during the hand and how he applies particular concepts, together with basic logic and common sense, in various situations that he excellently describes. So if I were a pro I guess I'd find this pretty scary stuff. (What's scarier still, BTW, is that the book is so much fun to read).
I think the book is very good, especially the articles about specific hands and strategy. There are a fair number of other topics that are well written but less interesting to me.
David
Here is an excerpt I pulled out of a rec.gambling.craps posting...it was 8 segments long of rantings. He mentioned a web site that i didn't visit ("You may visit our lawsuit at http://home..att.net/~lawcenter" )
Reason I sent this here- sounds like the clown (ringleader clown?) is planning on going after book companies too... thought i'd give y'all (and Conjelco, if you pass it on) a heads-up, in case this is more than ranting/whining.
Feel free to delete this message once you've evaluated what's going on. I would have sent email, but MS couldn't handle Feedback link.
Here is some of message from the idiot on rec.gambling.craps:
Subject: CLASS ACTION VS SYSTEM HUCKSTERS Date: 1999/08/19 Author: DougGrant Posting History
Message segment 1 of 8 - Get Next Segment - Get All 8 Segments Please note that I have been on vacation for awhile, and now have returned to the group full-time. Moreover, during my travels we have finally received information from a group of lawyers that might be willing to file full contingency class-action lawsuits against all the system hucksters, and their casino and other supporters. We have accumulated a tremendous amount of hard data that proves without question that card counting systems will fail against real world casinos. Moreover, we have absolute proof that all these fraudulent system claims made by the likes of Stanford Wong and others are contributing directly to pathological gambling. Consequently, we have started the Class-Action lawsuit process officially. It might take a couple of years to reach all potential plaintiffs, but if you believe that you have been deceived by ANY system huckster (and if you have purchased ANY of their systems with a representation that you can beat the casinos then you have been duped whether you know it or not) then email me with your name and address and telephone number and we will add you to the list of potential plaintiffs. I suggest that if you are interested in this lawsuit that you enter ASAP as there might be a limit voted by the group of lawyers that are fronting the expenses.
(The con men will attempt to claim that I gain some profit or expenses from this lawsuit and others. That is, of course a lie. You will NOT be asked to pay anything - fees, expenses nothing. Moreover, I have nothing to do with expense funds or fees. Moreover, other than an expert, I am not involved in the lawsuit.)
Our main concern, of course, is the clandestine connections between certain casinos and these system hucksters, not to mention the plethora of book companies that have been enticed to sell obviously fraudulent systems that contribute directly to pathological gambling.
We will soon start a national mailing campaign directed to all gamblers advising them of the perils of purchasing and using card counting and other casino systems that are being fraudulently represented as winning systems. Moreover, we will invite those gamblers to join our class action if they have lost money and/or expenses due to such fraudulent representations.
Moreover, we have decided to send similar correspondence to all book publishers and other entities that are selling or promoting or publishing such false system representations. Once such entities are notified, should they persist in selling such fraudulently represented systems, then they too could be held culpable for their actions. So look forward to seeing several hundred posts subsequent to this one in respect to this subject. Remember to email me with your full name, address and telephone number if you have purchased ANY gambling system (within the past six years only) from any system huckster that claimed you could win money in any casino. Like I said, this might take a while to reach numerosity, or it might be over after only a couple of mailings. But if you believe you have an honest claim, contact me and I will furnish your name to the key lawyer handling this issue. (Or have your lawyer contact me and I will refer him directly to the lawyer involved.) (ED NOTE: SKIPPED SECTIONS IN BETWEEN) Now you know why the casinos love to use the preferential shuffle. You also might have figured out why we consider its use cheating, and we have sued the casinos for using it and have filed a petition with the NJ CCC asking them to stop the casinos from using it. You may visit our lawsuit at http://home..att.net/~lawcenter if you would like to know more about the casino's use of the preferential shuffle. So what is the typical answer we read from the system hucksters in respect to the preferential shuffle?.............(ED NOTE- CONTINUES ON IN REC.* POSTING)
How did you get this document to this wep site? If you typed it you are some kind of pro.
Sally,
Most browsers will allow you to copy and paste as much text as the memory of the computer will allow for its "clipboard".
As follows :
1. Highlight the desired text to copy. 2. Click on EDIT 3. Click on COPY 4. Place the cursor in the Message: area of this website. 5. Click on EDIT again. 6. Click on PASTE
Your're done.
:-)
Thank you.
Sally,
Most browsers will allow you to copy and paste as much text as the memory of the computer will allow for its "clipboard".
As follows :
1. Highlight the desired text to copy. 2. Click on EDIT 3. Click on COPY 4. Place the cursor in the Message: area of this website. 5. Click on EDIT again. 6. Click on PASTE
Your're done.
Again, Frank, thank you.
Frank, Sally was all impressed with me, now you've blown that!
Sally, Another trick- open up Notepad (or Word) ,paste into a document from web, then cut and paste what you want. Gives you more memory, you can save doc and not lose data....
Sorry Easy, I almost thought she was going to tell me she was joking! :-)
Doug [G]rant is a certified nut. Ignore most (all?) of what he posts. Abdul has a collection somewhere on the web of some really choice Doug Grant "rants".
Or is he just a ranter? I'd hate for Conjelco or TwoPlusTwo to get sucked up into some crybaby's lunacy....
Well, that's for the Big 3 to worry about.
Thanks for the tip. Think I'll avoid wasting time with the guy's postings.
For about how long now have the 2+2 forums been getting more traffic than rec.gambling.poker? Just curious.
From mere volume standpoint I believe RGP still beats 2+2 by quite a bit. I can't put my finger on numbers but I'd estimate RGP gets over 200 articles/day. Hard to compare readerships though. The 2+2 guys should be able to give us an estimate if they wanted. USENET is a little harder. I heard an estimate of 1/2M for RGP the other day. I wouldn't be stunned if that was true.
Chris,
Could you tell me how I can find R.G.P. What web address is it?
Thanks,
Jack
It's a newsgroup, so you need a new reader like Microsoft Outlook. Or, you can go to www.deja.com and in the search field, put in rec.gambling.poker and it will pull it up. But, in order to post to the newsgroup, you would need to sign up with Deja, which is free, but they ask for a bunch of info.
James Flames
Click on the "Favorite Links" link under the "Directory" on the green panel to your left. At the very bottom, you'll find a link to r.g.p. You can also access it through deja.com and remarq.com (my preference).
im giving up on this one and going solely back to RGP Ive asked a specific questions of either Mason or David, who I had been led to understand monitor this forum, and yet neither has bothered to respond
sorry to lose you Kelly but no one owes you a reply. if your questions are interesting you may get a reply. over on rpg you are guaranteed to get responded to if thats what you are looking for. good luck.
Anyone have any good Johnny Moss stories? I control the screen rights to his life story and am in the process of writing and producing a biopic on him for a major Hollywood studio. I'm looking for any personal anecdotes, stories, or general comments that are not readily available in print. Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated.
Best regards,
Sean sean20th@hotmail.com
There is a rather disturbing story making the rounds in LV regarding a recent Jackpot heist at Sams Town LV. The story I got is that a cooler deck was brought into play with cards pre-arranged so that the players at the table would hit the Jackpot (40,000?). Allgedly they got away with it but Sams survelance tapes were reviewed the next day and the scam was exposed. The Mgr on duty was arrested when he came in to work the next day. I have no first hand knowledge of this situation but several long time players mentioned it in separate conversations. I'm wondering if anyone has any definitive info on this. It points out how difficult it can be to get accurate info.If true,we know it won't be mentioned in poker media, if false rumor it also can do damage.
I'm looking for copies of the old POKER PLAYER newspaper.Can anyone help me out?
Could someone tell me if there are any books on head up Holdem, and where I might find them.
Thanks Andy
In the 21st Century Edition of HPFAP we just happened to add a section on short handed play. A lot of the discussion is based on a heads up game.
i am having trouble with the hold um gAme on yahoo! the limit is 2-4 but it is raised every time and my poket duces get cracked repeatedly!any advise wood be helpful
Oh you noticed that too! I gave up on that game due to the slow play and all the reraising. My understanding is that to beat a game like that you play only your very best hands, which means you almost never play, and then pick up the giant pots.
I moved over to irc poker using the Gpkr windows client - very fast and better for practice since the players play much tighter and without the raising wars.
I just played a few hours in the Advanced lounge, where the play is faster, and I would concur that tight play is in order. I won maybe 3 pots in 2 hrs but came out ahead due to the huge pots.
I also noticed that many of my pre-flop mucked hands were hit on the flop, which is annoying but that's poker. I guess if nothing else, if you can beat the Yahoo game, then you should be able to beat any loose, aggressive low limit game anywhere, and it does teach you patience.
Where can I find this Gpkr software that has been mentioned? I'd be more than happy to give it a try as Yahoo is just too unrealistic. Thanks.
www.anet-stl.com/~gregr. The 16-bit version doesn't have fancy graphics - the players actions come up on a spreadsheet. There is a 32-bit version that just came out the other day, but I haven't tried that yet.
The Yahoo! game can't really be called poker. I played for about 20 minutes (hich amounted to something like 7 hands) there was an average of about 5 players on the showdown. Super slow, and useless. I've found gpkr to be fun, and the compeition is somewhat realistic.
Pocket deuces getting cracked? Is that a big surprise? Deuces are always a come hand.
I think this is the right page to post this question!
Is video poker really considered beatable? What I mean is, I know that good play on a good machine is meant to decrease your disadvantage, but I've read that you would always have at least a half percent disadvantage.
I noticed that a few books on the book page included video poker as a beatable game???
Any thoughts?
Steve
David, are there plans to update this book as well? My old copy is getting rather thrashed, I'd like to see a new improved version.
No immediate plans
If the information is accurate, there is not much need to update it, as it is an analysis of the principles of poker without regard to a specific game. Principia isn't getting rewritten too often. That being said, one could make an argument for updating FToP with PFoTP and an explanation as to why it doesn't apply to multi-way pots identically. I have a hunch tho that this is going to be addressed in a forthcoming book by someone else.
JG
If anything I think games are going to get tighter and tougher as time goes on so updating for loose games isnt really an issue. Gone are the days when Omaha was a sure way to win a couple hundred a day even at lower limits and the capped family pot isnt seen much anymore. Sure when poker first comes on a scene its a big boom with lots of live games, but now poker is pretty much everywhere and I have noticed even in California the games aren't quite what they used to be. Once Bellagio is open for a year we shall see just how much people will be raving about the games there. I have noticed some former CA pros have moved to play full-time at Bellagio so that has to hurt the quality of the games there in the long run.
Are there any casinos with poker rooms in Michigan? I will be doing some vacationing there in a few weeks, and would like to do some sampling if it is available. Any information would be much appreciated.
The Soaring Eagle in Mount Pleasant is a great place to play... they usually have up to 20-40 on weekends. Up north a little further there is a whole bunch of card rooms, Ive never been to them but I here there nice.
Thanks for the information!
Do they have low limits also? How would you characterize the players? Loose/tight? Passive/aggressive?
Is there poker during the week as well?
Are all the casinos in Michigan indian casinos?
They have 3-6 hold'em and 2-6 stud. I recommend the 6-12 holdem as the players in this game are usually incredibly passive. THe lower limit games can be found all week long.
All the casinos are indian casinos except for the temps. recently opened in Detroit. I dont think they have poker though.
Your not an attractive young lady by any chance are you?
Just a couple more things. I haven't been to the Soaring Eagle in awhile, but last time I was there, they had 4-8, not 3-6. Probably not too big a deal, but thought it might be worth mentioning.
Nagurski is correct, there is no poker the MGM Grand in Detroit or at Casino Windsor. I doubt the Greektown or the Motor City Casino will have poker either.
Here is an off the wall question. What is the feasibility of someone making a living from home playing the 10-20 games at planet poker or other online casinos.
I see from the posts below that one limitation might be speed, but that this has improved and perhaps can be overcome by playing shorthanded games. I also understand that there is a risk of collusion over separate chat lines or telephone. Any opinions on what such an endeavor is likely to be worth per hour? Thanks.
email me at kellyday@netgenie.com if you are serious
I recently purchased the new Turbo Omaha and Omaha-8 to bone-up on these games, which I rarely play in live action. I used to play lower limit Omaha-HighOnly and fared pretty well. Am I juct rusty, or are these games tougher to beat than Turbo Texas Hold'em? I even find the Omaha-8 tougher than low to mid-limit live O8 since the computer plays a little tighter (and better) than the average opponent.
What do other posters think of these games compared to Turbo Texas Hold'em and live 5-10 or 4-8 games?
The latest TT HE for Windows is tougher (much) than the older DOS version. At least that is my opinion. The players in general are much tougher.
I can usually win more at a good live 5-10 game than I do with the TT HE and TT O8; even without out rake and toke. (I have programmed the players to be tough though.)
Just my opinion. Oh, I do not follow a lot of the advice -- in fact I do not use it any more at all on TT O8, it is way too prone to come in on top pairs in situations which cannot win against small straights and lost large multiway pots-- but otherwise the practice is great, and I am a great fan of Wilson. He has done a great job.
Mark
If you are really looking for a good Omaha software, visit web site: www.acespad-software.com.
Do you own the software, or are you shilling? I've been trying here and RGP to get an owner's opinion on this product... with no success.
Are you an owner?
All I will say, is, there has been someone consistantly pushing this page on every software discussion, both here and rgp. Things the posts have in common:
1) brevity 2) similar writing styles 3) refusal to back up claims with examples, detail, etc. 4) anonymity, in the sense of not writing back when
challenged, etc.
We obviously don't know all the facts, but if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
its probably spam.
(dont they make spam out of duck lips?)
lol
I own neither software, but have noticed the only time Wilson speaks up is on technical questions,leaving discussions of merit for others. When I buy, a paycheck or two from now, my choice will be clear.
Be well,
Zooey zooey2@hotmail.com
I've got both Turbo Omaha and Turbo Omaha-8, and I find that the quality of the players (and adviser) is terrible.
It seems that the computer discounts the information of raises on previous rounds, for one thing. For example, I had a hand where I had two pair and the nut flush draw. A straight came on the turn, and there was a bet, I called, and a raise, and a re-raise behind me. I called, and missed my flush on the river. Now the same player bet, and the adviser suggested that I call with my two pair, because apparently the rule is that you should call with two pair against a single bet and no raise, even with a straight on the board. And while this might be a good rule in some circumstances, it was clear that there was no way I could win with two pair. The computer opponents seem to play the same way.
I bought Turbo Omaha because I wanted to run some simulations similar to what Abdul has been doing with Holdem. Omaha is my favorite games, and I think it's more amenable to computer simulation than holdem is. I concluded that the computer plays so badly that it's a waste of time.
LV People,
I need help with this I lost a bet to a woman (something completely different) and she wants her pizza in LV. So if you can stop laughing long enuf to answer this I would appreciate any spots for pepperoni pizza.
Thanks And I haven't learned my lesson so don't ask.
Paul
Wow, I can make a positive recommendation about something in Las Vegas!!!!
"Metro Pizza." Excellent! There are a couple, but I only know the one on Sandhill and Flamingo, in the Smith's plaza.
I've always enjoyed the California Pizza Kitchen at The Mirage(as much as I hate saying anything good about The Mirage).
Brett
Has anyone had any experience with poker on the internet, ie is it legitimate, and what about possible cheating? Also, anyone played using webtv, which is what I have? Thanks.
It's worth a try. Don't get hooked -- live poker has more soul.
I guess if you're the type of player that gives off alot of tells, maybe online poker is for you. Heh heh, that aside, planetpoker has been mentioned often but not deltapoker, which I am looking at trying.
Any hidden fees? I am looking to try 4-8 or 5-10.
Delta has no hidden expenses - usually play 4-8 or 6-12. Free to deposit, free to withdraw. Planetpoker charges 6% to deposit, and $15 to withdraw, as does Atlantic Interbet and Dragonpoker Inn.
Delta doesn't appear to have any hidden fees, although I haven't tried to withdraw my meager $15 winnings. They are short on player though; last night they had 1 4/8 game going.
Wow, that's just plain gouging, IMO. These online card rooms already charge the same rake as large clubs, so you'd think that would be enough. They have virtually no overhead to speak of or employees to pay, so their rake is pure profit. That should more than cover any expenses they have in working with the credit card companies and mailing checks.
Delta sounds good and I hope they don't get greedy, either.
Just to set the record straight...
Planet Poker charges 6% on transfers via credit card from our E-cash providers to Planet Poker. This isn't a revenue generating charge. E-cash on the internet is still a relatively new thing and that's how much we get charged as a transfer fee. This is not a hidden charge. It is outlined quite specifically on our web site. If you don't want to use your credit card and can wait a few days, there is no charge at all for mailed in checks or wire transfers (although the bank will charge you for wires).
We have recently brought on a new E-cash processor (Winners Internet). Normally they do charge $10 for a wire transfer and $17.50 for a international bank check. We have never charged for cash outs and we still don't. In the short term at least we will absorb these costs. After we've been with their system for a while we may re-evaluate this, but I suspect that we will never be dinging our customers that much for a cashout.
Has anybody made a real good profit and how long did it take for the check to be in your hands!!!!!!
Could someone please tell me if video poker is considered a beatable game?
I thought the best you could do was to have about 0.5% against you (about the same as basic strategy blackjack in a shoe game).
I get the impression that some feel it is a beatable game.
Any thoughts PLEASE???
Steve
there are some places with machines that have paybacks over 100% with perfect play. when jackpot machines get high enough you have a positive play as well but your earn only shows up when you hit it the rest of the times you leave loser.
Steve,
As Ray said above, there are games with a slightly positive payback. If you play these using perfect strategy with a slot club card, you will make a few cents an hour, and be able to use your slot club points to get toaster ovens or whatever. You may want to check out articles/ or books by Don Paymer, the late Lenny Fromme (sp?), and a couple others who are reputable. Conjelco may carry them and Gambler's Book Club certainly does.
The basic reason the casino's can offer such a machine is that playing correct strategy is very anti-intuitive. A few locals will make a few cents but most tourists will misplay them in a big way. I'm supposed to be a semi-intelligent gambler but years ago I played one roll of quarters once on a dueces wild weird bonus type machine and I wasn't even close when I looked it up in Fromme's book which I had in my room.
Regarding making a living, you would need to play progressive machines where the jackpot is big. Stanford Wong has a book about ten years old which covers this well. My understanding (note that I don't live in Las Vegas or go there much) is that it is not as easy as it used to be.
Quick story before I gotta run. Obout eight years ago I am having a comped drink at a Las Vegas casino bar while I played the correct stategy in video poker (which is still usually negative EV not counting the drink). I was waiting for my wife but this being Las Vegas a hooker maunevers herself next to me. I watch her play a bit and she is making every mistake in the book. After she makes her move (of which I politely declined of course), I left and told her if she just read a book of tables or two she wouldn't have to work so hard. She seemed to appreciate the advice and I always wonder if she actually did it.
Regards,
Rick
I was waiting for my wife but this being Las Vegas a hooker maunevers herself next to me. I watch her play a bit and she is making every mistake in the book. After she makes her move (of which I politely declined of course), I left and told her if she just read a book of tables or two she wouldn't have to work so hard. She seemed to appreciate the advice and I always wonder if she actually did it.
Good Enuf Reason For Me Not To Play What's The EV Including Her Charge + Winning At Video Poker.
Paul
Video Poker is very beatable. There are people who have made a whole lot of money at video poker, and I will name them on request. How much you make depends on which denomination/machine you play, and how fast you are. My wife makes about $7.00 per hour playing .25 full pay deuces. My friend Dennis was making about $30.00 per hour playing $1.00 full pay joker poker, untill they took the machines out. There is info. available(Bob Dancer) on what full pay is, and where the machines are, and the correct strategy. Be prepared to be bored.
Jack
I just moved to NYC. If anyone has information regarding the Mayfair Club, it would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Jim.
It's pretty cool. I have a friend who is a member and he's taken me there twice when I was in town visiting. Too much stud, but when they have hold 'em, the games are good. There are some very good local pros, but I have also seen some average and below average players. You can learn a lot from the pros and stay out of their way.
No alcohol, food is mediocre. It's on 25th Street, if I recall.
You might also try the Diamond Club. It is a bit more casual in terms of food and atmosphere, but has dealers (the Mayfair is self-dealt). The DC has mostly hold'em, 4-8 and 10-20 every night, and 2-5 blind pot limit on Saturday and Tuesday. The pot limit game gets pretty big pots. They are also starting to promote more stud and 08, and are getting these games off a couple times a week.
They also have a fun $0 + rebuys no-limit HE tourney on Sunday, a stud tourney on Sat, an O8 tourney Mondays, and a limit HE tourney on Thursdays.
The phone number is 727-1956. Ask for John or Billy. They will probably check you out a bit and ask for references, etc., but are fairly welcome to new (non-pro) members. You can email me at mtedesco@sbi.com if you don't have any luck or want more details.
Can't vouch for the Mayfair, but I think the games are generally larger and looser. I also think there is a yearly membership fee.
The Mayfair is a "members-only" club. It may be hard to get into the games there unless you already know someone who's a member.
It's a small place with a homey atmosphere. There's a pool table in the lounge and several card tables. You can also usually find someone to play backgammon or chess with.
You may want to check out their webpage at: http://www.nycguide.com/mayfair/
good luck, Kam
I'm looking for legitimate poker room around montreal area? What is the closest room?
If you hear of one, please let me know. I am frequently in the Montreal area.
Sean,
If i hear of anything i'll let you know... i am hoping to get a response on this board.
-shack
Rick -- You asked about creating italics etc. in a post on the Theory/Strategy Forum. It's really quite easy. You just plug some simple HTML commands into your posts in the appropriate places. Those places are usually (always?) on each side of any word or phrase that you want formatted in a particular way (e.g., italics, bold, underlined...). I've only bothered to learn a few common ones. Obviously someone like Abdul, with his use of charts etc., can do a lot more.
I've put a link below to a site that appears to have everything you'd ever want to know about it. Try the "Quick Reference Guide". That's where I picked up what I know about it.
The difficulty with explaining it in a post is that the HTML commands that you're trying to illustrate disappear after you post the post, leaving only the formatting behind! (Email me if you just want to learn a couple of basics. They won't disappear in an (non-HTML) email.)
John Feeney
http://www.utexas.edu/learn/pub/html.html
John,
I'll give it a try. There sure isn't a lack of material out there and you can view the source code from your browser.
Regards,
Rick
Here is how to format your posts on the twoplustwo website using HTML commands.
The horizonal lines you see are made with: This preformatted fixed width text should line up<BR>
=================================================
</PRE>
This preformatted fixed width text should line up
================================================= (The <BR> is for a line break, though the 2+2 posting mechanism tends to override it, and you normally wouldn't even have to use it in a preformatted text block.) Here is an unnumbered list:
<UL>
<LI>This is the first element.
<LI>This is the second element.
</UL>
Here is an unnumbered list: (Use <OL> and </OL> for numbered lists. You can nest the lists. You can also nest most of the other commands.) <TR ALIGN="CENTER"><TH COLSPAN=3>Table
<TR ALIGN="CENTER"><TH>Tic<TH>Tac<TH>Toe
<TR ALIGN="CENTER"><TD>X<TD>X<TD>O
<TR ALIGN="CENTER"><TD>O<TD>X<TD>O
<TR ALIGN="CENTER"><TD> <TD>O<TD>X
</TABLE> <IMG SRC=/covers/holdem.gif>,
<IMG SRC=/images/sklanskyhead.gif> and
<IMG SRC=/images/malhead.gif> write that... In (Also /images/zeehead.gif /covers/advstud.gif /covers/eight.gif /covers/theory.gif and many more that you can discover using "View source" in your web browser when you see a picture on the twoplustwo website.)
Rick - Here is the easy way. Use the HTML you learned here to "touch up" what you create ...
In your web browser, click "Edit Page". In Internet Explorer there is an "Edit" button or you can get there by the pulldown Edit ... Page. In Netscape, I think the path is pulldown File ... EditPage.
Now you are in Composer (or whatever your browser calls it). Click File ... New and you can now use the Composer just like a word processor to compose a web page. You can probably learn more than one trick per day! The bold/italic/underline controls are easy. Be sure to experiment with right-click into your page - I think that's where you find "insert ... image"
When you have composed what you want, save the page as text (it took 2 tries to find the selection in Internet Explorer FrontPage to "save as file" instead of putting it directly on the Internet!); then use Notepad to edit it as text.
Now you have to remove the HTML, HEAD, and BODY stuff at the top (because the page created by Conjelco will already have all that "overhead" stuff on it), and remove the /BODY and /HTML at the bottom.
Paste what's left into the Message area and you should get exactly what you wrote in Composer.
Here are some things I created using only the page composer:
Test page ... italics ... bold ... underlined ... picture from anywhere on the web ... here's the banner from Card Player Mag. ... Dick
Here's an improvement over the above:
Open Composer ... File ... New
Create what you want to insert, using Composer
Right-click and "View Source"
Just cut-and-paste the source that Composer just created for you, and insert it into the Conjelco window.
Dick
I was wondering if anyone out there has an opinion concerning the use of shuffling machines by poker dealers . It seems to me that it might significantly increase the output of hands, insure a random shuffle, and perhaps take some heat off of dealers. And does anyone know who sells them? My apologies for mistakenly posting this on the poker forum.
GI,
I used this nifty new search program called Copernic 99 which sends out simultaneous queries to most major engines but all I came up with so far is balckjack shuffling machines. I'll try again later if I can come up with a better query.
Regards,
Rhode Island Rick
Try searching: Pai Gow Equipment.
I've read HPFAP so many times, the pages are falling out. It's my only hold'em book. What should be the next book for me? I'm very interested in psychology and tells, but I want a HE strategy book that's more concise than HPFAP, which seems to jump around alot. thanks
_HPFAPP, 21st Century Edition_. Sorry, it's not more concise than the previous edition, but it's got a significant amount of new material.
More concise and also very good is Sklansky's _Hold'em Poker_.
Have you read _Theory of Poker_? I'd read that before going on to other Hold'em books. Then when you do go on to them, you'll be in a better position to critique them, which ultimately becomes the best way to get something worthwhile out of some of them.
John Feeney
spadebrain,
21CHEFAP is much better than HEFAP there are good psychology sections in it and the questions and answers in the back are a great feature in this book. The strategy and bluff section is half the book or more. Also you might want to buy GAMBLING FOR A LIVING which has 30 pages on tells.
Until We Meet On The Nile!!!
Paul
I don't remember any pages on tells in GFAL much less 30, but I haven't got the book here.
Spadebrain: Theory of Poker will give you a richer foundation for some of the specific plays in HPFAP. It has more bang for the buck than the new version of the latter (which you should also get).
Bob Ciaffone's "Improve Your Poker" or Roy Cooke's book should also be on your short list. Both volumes of "Poker Essays" are worthwhile, but the second is more current.
TWIMC,
In the back of the GFAL book on page 318 index it lists tell 5,12,15,16,19,23,37,47,76,81,102,108,146,169,181,189,195,196,204,214-216,219,223,235,242,283,284,300,308 tells 19,55,87,185,226,242,300,302,309.
I'm sorry these are just listings of the word tell or tells. My 5am help isn't what it used to be.
Paul
To set the record straight, there is not a section on tells in Gambling for a Living.
Mason,
I realize that now for some reason in the index it printed out all these pages for tell and tells. I was half awake and I just counted up the pages and said this will help, but it must be some gliche that happened on the printing of the book. When I got back home I checked it out because everyone said what tells. Then I went through each page listed and it only had the word tell on each one of those pages. Like Ray says after about three tries I finally explain what I mean and it almost makes sense. I realize I'm partially to blame but so is the book for having this listed in the tell part of the index on page 318 of GFAL (Gambling For A Living).
So Sorry Paul
Is gambling for a living a worthwhile book?
spadebrain,
I think it's the future for a gambler to be able to play a number of games well, which in turn gives you more options on your day or nite at the tables. It discusses BJ, Sports (Baseball, basketball etc., Horse racing, Slot & Poker Machines those are all the beatable games. Then there is a section on non-beatable games roulette, craps, keno, baccarat, Other games. then there is a section on Casino trnmts. Anyway that's out of the ToC (Table of Contents) so I hope that's right not like the index in the back. IMO it's a great book to help you think of where you want to go next.
For Me That's To The Crib
Paul
Gambling for A Living is designed as an overview of all the beatable casino games. It is basically an introduction to how to become a top all around gambler. We think it's a great book for someone fairly new to casino gambling, but it is not written at the same level of detail as some of our other books.
What tells?
TWIMC,
In the back of the GFAL book on page 318 index it lists tell 5,12,15,16,19,23,37,47,76,81,102,108,146,169,181,189,195,196,204,214-216,219,223,235,242,283,284,300,308 tells 19,55,87,185,226,242,300,302,309.
I'm sorry these are just listings of the word tell or tells. My 5am help isn't what it used to be.
Paul
I don't think there is a "more concise" HE book the HFAP (new edition preferred).
That said, I would consider for HE: Roy Cooke's book of essays and Ciffone's Improve Your Poker. For the tells, Mike Caro's book of tells.
Based on the range of topics we see in the forum I believe there is room for quite a few more good books on HE.
David
Bob Ciaffone's Improve Your Poker has some very practical chapters on tells. I especially like the one in which he discusses eye movements. Speaking of eye movements, there is no book greater than Using Your Brain for a Change written by Richard Bandler. In my opinion, it's the best book ever written on the subject of how to uncover another person's intentions through your observation of his eye movements. It is also a very good psychology book. If you haven't yet read The Theory of Poker by David Sklansky, you are missing out on a lot of advanced poker concepts and their underlying principles.
If you are going to play in just lower medium limits I suggest Lou Krieger's books. I know some people dont care much for them, but I think his writing is much like David's in that he does a good job of explaining points without being overly technical. His writing doesn't really cover the things needed to beat bigger games, but I consider it solid advice and I reread them almost as much as my 2+2 books.
Buy all the good books and read them together and finish them. If you are playing poker daily reading one at a time and taking time to select costs too much money and spends too much time in the dark. Then buy "Paul Feeney on abbreviations in poker and life for the internet" when he writes it so you can understand what he is talking about in his posts. Good Luck.
Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. I find HFAP very valuable, but what I mean by it not being concise is that I find it hard to put the concepts in a format for study. I'll take a look at the new edition. I've read Roy Cooke's articles and find them to be excellent.
SB
Can anyone recommend some good places to play poker in the Seattle area (5-10 - 10-20 Holdem) thanks BB
Simple, go to the Hideaway on Aurora and 145th. Best 10-20 games anywhere. Two dollar rake and lots of action, usually a couple of games to choose from. Also they have a couple of 4-8 games as well. I have played there 5 or 6 times and have never been in a tight game, even during afternoon games. Only thing is that the smoking can get out of hand there. Coming from CA its hard to get used to because most of the rooms up there are small so they arent spending much on filtration systems. When will the other states figure it out and ban smoking inside as well? It sure hasnt hurt CA businesses except for maybe a dive bar here or there.
Anyone out there use webtv, and found an online poker room that is compatible? Thanks.(One cannot download anything with webtv.)
Why are you still using Webtv anyways? Go buy a $500 computer and in two years you will have paid for it by using one of the many free ISP's out there now. Or pay the $21.95/month and get the free computer from Compuserve.
free isp's that work all the time and connect you quickly? is that what you use?
I do use them now because all the regular ISP's arent all that reliable themselves. The only thing is that you have to put up with an ad box on the screen, but after a few days you get used to it and generally ignore it. I have 3 of them set up just in case any of them arent working at a given time.
what is the name of these "Free" ISPs How do you get them?
How do you get a free computer from compuserve? And what kind is it? Is it really a good deal to do this? Thank you in advance for your help.
The Compuserve offer is basically a $400 rebate on any computer you buy when you sign up for a 3 year contract for online service at $21.95/month. Generally I hear its not the best thing to do since so much will change online in 3 years and you might be stuck with a slow ISP when the same monthly rate might get you something faster.
The free ISPs that I would suggest are at www.altavista.com and one for netzero (not sure the web address). There are even more available, just look it up on a search engine under free internet service. You go to the site and download the application, run it, answer the registration questions, and then you can start using it. Pretty easy process.
Ok. Will Check out. Thanks.
Today i went fishing on Marias pass near Glacier N.P. on a river that i can always catch 50 trout out of when just as i head to the water a large(they always look large) grizzly bear with two cubs came down the bank about 100 feet away. where they were going to cross was right where i was and there was no moving away for me. as usual i was my lucky self and made a little noise and she stood up and looked and smelled for me but i was behind a bush. a little more noise and she went back up the bank and left with her two cubs. i then went and caught my fish. sometimes doing the opposite of the normal advise may be the best ploy as most would make alot of noise and yell here and that might have gotten me in trouble.
If you had read my book like you advertise you would of known that was the correct sol'n.
Paul
I know I'm just a city boy, but standing up and yelling at the bear wouldn't have been my first instinct. Somewhere right behind trying to grab one of the cubs I think on my scale of preferences.
I think Ray is probably referencing that many back country manuals encourage you to scream, yell, and (a few even say to) throw rocks. Many (most?) people facing this situation are probably looking at a California brown bear (or like semi herbivore) which will typically amble away at least for a few minutes in my experience. Aggressively yelling at a grizzly mother and cubs seems like a very short term habit to me. I'd guess due to the bears poor sight, Ray's covered location, and the cubs the mother decided not to risk approaching a possible threat.
This sounds like it has more poker content then Ray's title suggested.
good thinking. also the california bears are all black bears even if brown colored.
Someday Ray Zee WILL get eaten by a bear and when they cut him open to determine the cause of death they won't find no gamble inside.
thanks calvin,
wont find no gamble means will find gamble. also if eaten by bear no need to determine cause of death.
Nice bluff.
the poker part of the whole thing is to be able to make the right decisions no matter what situation you are facing. in other words use your head and not your emotions as best you can.
Ray,
I've run into the black bears in California while by myself and played my best game but a grizzly would definitely put me on tilt.
Regards,
Rick
You might want to check the archives for a response from Ray in an earlier thread where he outlines some 'tells' which will indicate if the bear really means business. :)
The strategy for discouraging a bear attack is similar to the strategy for discouraging a great white shark attack: when it attacks you, poke it's eye then flip it over.
actually its their nose thats tender to them. once they are upon you, you can only play dead and hope they lose interest and no longer feel you are a threat.
Actually Ray didn't get lucky at all. When Momma bear saw that it was "Ray Zee" she was up against she just figured that she wouldn't get any "action" and went off looking for a softer spot.
Bears can play poker too.
Made a little noise? Sounds like you were faking a slowplay. The mother bear probably left feeling smug, knowing she avoided a big hand which was trying to not scare her off with a lot of noise. Very clever.
Ray Zee he always get lucky. Mama Bear she eat him she die, cause of death heap big TIGHTening of throat. So all she do is show professional respect to poker raptor. Its unbearable to think of headlines " Grizzlee Dies from RZee Gut Shot". Isn't it time to start a campaign to make RZ a Montana State Treasure, maybe that way they keep him.
So the poker aspect is knowing your adversary well. I gather you have more than a yearly occasion to apply these bear avoidance skills?
i only get lucky enough to get so close once every few years. i see them on a regular basis from a distance and they come in my yard at nite and turn over all sorts of things but do no damage. the black bears are around all the time but they run away quickly.
Ray:
I've only read a little of this silly thread since it has nothing to do with poker. But if you are scared of the grizzlys here's a simple solution. Just take one of your cats with you, that annoying black one would be a good example. If the bear gets too close, just toss the cat its way and that should keep Mrs. Grizzly occupied while you scamper to safety.
Will be in Dallas this sunday looking for a poker game
Hi, as you have probably guessed, I am looking for a home poker game in or around San Jose, California. If you have any information please email me at quanphan@netzero.net. Thanks for reading, Quan
There is a casino in town that has the following game: nickel video poker with the deuces and one joker being wild. The progressive jackpot is $1,400. To win it you must bet the maximum of 5 nickels (for a total of 25 cents) and get 4 deuces and the joker. In other words, deuces quads. I am no mathematician but my instincts tell me that this is a positive expectation situation. Am I right or am I merely hallucinating? At what point should the progressive jackpot be for me to breakeven against the house? What's my per bet E.V.?
huh?,
You might read the thread below on video poker. Correct strategy for most machines are covered by the various books. Do not rely on instinct. These games are designed to destroy the instinctual player.
Regards,
Rick
Does anyone out there have any experience with poker in the casinos of Michigan's Upper Peninsula?
Nagurski (see below) helped me out with Mt Pleasant, but I'd also like to check out others in Michigan on my travels. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Sue- The only one I am familiar with first hand is the Chip In Casino near Escanaba MI on Highway 41. It is about 110 miles from Green Bay WI. Casino is large, new, with an attached 13 story hotel. I think rooms are $75-110.
Phone # 1-800-682-6040
They have a 6 table poker room with low limit action. Not easy games though for a beginner. Generally it is $2-5 or $5-10 Dealer's choice. The games can be called straight high or hi/lo split. Players can "choose" from Holdem, Omaha, Pineapple, Double Flop Holdem, and 7Stud. Omaha and Holdem are the ones chosen most often.
They have nightly tournaments at 7:30 and on Saturdays at 1 pm. All times are EDT.
I have played there a lot in the past when they had their old casino. Nice friendly staff, but games are not plentiful anymore since the river boats opened up in Chicago and Iowa. They probably spread 2 tables regularly during the week and 3-4 on weekends. I was last there over Fourth of July weekend, so you may want to call first and get a read on the type of action they have had most recently.
Hope this is of help. If you do go there, please say hi to players and staff from "Diane from Green Bay.
Diane
Many thanks, Diane. I'm afraid that "dealer's choice" scares me off at this point!
At least I know to ask about that at other places.
I just played at the Kewadin Casino in St. Ignace. Mostly 7 card stud, but I think they had an Omaha table going later in the evening. No hold em at all. Two of the stud tables were 2-5 and 10-20 spread limit. One was 10-20 hi-lo. I sat at the two five briefly and it was very passive, with the largest pot being about 25 bucks. There were a couple multiway showdowns, but those generally had no raising, and minimal 2-3 dollar type bets. I sat for about an hour and was a whopping 9 dollars richer for it.
The people at the table were generally cordial.
I think they have nightly tournaments as well.
hope that helps. Brian
Is Doug Grant the only person, who has situations which lead to the gaming commission? Given the number of persons, who post to this forum (and all of the gripes), I am surprised to see no posts of experiences with local gaming commissions. I have found the commissions in Illinois and Indiana to be pro-casino, and generally unresponsive to complaints, from the casino-going public.
Try playing 15-30 in Kansas City without knowing the gaming commission allows a player to lose only 500 in any two hour session! Lucky for me I never got short-stacked, but if I had known I would have colored-up instead of cashed out - since they spread 20-40 at the Station Casino the next day.
Andrew Wells wrote......Exuse me, but what is your point?
Didn't you ask if anyone other than D. Grant has had a bad experience with a gaming commission? I simply posted a bad experience with a foolish gaming commission rule I had encountered.
Yes, it is a foolish rule. But don't blame the gaming commission. It was the only way we could get casino's (hence public poker) in Missouri.
OK twoplustwo buddies..I need help. I've finally decided to "bite the bullet" and give up my beloved Macintosh and upgrade to a computer that can run all that neat poker software that's out there. (Yeah I know about Virtual PC and Softwindows for the Mac but I hear they slow things down a lot) I still love the Mac OS (I bought my Mom an IMAC for her 80th birthday and she's surfing the web now) but for me it's now time for Windows
Now that I've sold my business and spend a lot more time playing poker I've decided to dust off that old BS in mathematics that I got back in the 60's and put it to use improving my poker skills.
So...I'm looking for recommendations for a new computer. I'll use it mostly for the internet (needs to be fast) and for poker related software.
Since I'll be moving around a lot I'll probably lean towards a laptop (although I've never used one and don't know what the disadvantages are.)
Please let me know what you think I need. Have you had a bad experience with any computer? Warn me please.
I don't want to spend any more than I have to but I don't want to be foolishly frugal...I can spend say $2000.00 if necessary but I want something to back up my files and maybe an external monitor for my home base if I end up getting a laptop.
Feel free to respond by email if you have something to say which may not be of general interest to the whole group
Laptops generally don't have as high a speed and as much RAM as desktops- plus they are a lot more expensive.... as in several grand more.
although the location flexibility is nice...
Jim,
I move around a lot and have a notebook computer. Mine is plenty powerful enough at it has a 400 MHZ processor, 128 MBytes of RAM, 24x CD, 6 GByte Hard drive, 16 bit sound card, 13.3 TFT LCD display, PCMCIA 56k modem, all the connections for external peripheral devices, a touch pad mouse, a 3-6 hour lithium ion battery, and an optional port replicator (docking station). The problem with notebooks is that they tend to offer a more expensive computing solution that a desktop and prices can vary from vendor to vendor quite a bit. I did some comparitive shopping using Computer Shopper and got mine for $1900 by using that source. I don't expect much support from my vendor so that is also something to consider. I really, really like my notebook as I do use it in several locations. If you are using battery power a lot it probably would pay to buy an extra battery pack. I got stuck in the Dallas airport once for eight hours and was able to do work their but I had to find a place to re-charge my battery pack which wasn't fun. If you have any more questions e-mail me at the above address.
Tom Haley
Greetings:
I'm going to Vegas on Wednesday and have yet to get a room. I'm wondering which of the Poker rooms will discount my room the easiest. I'll probably only be playing 1-5 stud, though I plan on putting in about 15-20 hours. Any thoughts, opinions, experiences, etc??
Thanks,
JPN
I suggest the Orleans. I'm not sure of the room rates but they're stid gamesusually go later than mosty and for the most part are good. With 2-3 hours of play you get a $5 food comp. The MGM will comp a buffet but only with a strict 5 hours continous play. I think the Luxor had good poker room rates, although I never liked the games there too much, except the holdem freezeout tourn.
I was told by the Luxor Poker Room manager that they will charge $49 on a weekday and $79 for a weekend during most periods -- I guess this doesn't include holidays, Comdex week, etc. You need to play a lot (I forget the # of hours). The good news is that the Hotel is very very nice, and the game was very good/easy when I last visited. The bad news is that there were no games higher than 4-8 and no O8, only HE.
Mark
Depends on the amount you want to pay for a room. The Luxor rate is for 4-5 hours on weekdays and 6-8 on the weekends and they say they are flexible about it, say you play only 2 on the first day and 10 the second. You have to pay the full room rate upfront and then if you qualify they give you a ticket which you give at checkout that gets you the discount, so you do have time to make up if you need. The games there are pretty good at least the stud and goes pretty much all night from what I remember. One time I just wanted to stay there so I got the special rate and had no problem putting in the time. The game is typical though, high rake, but generally if you want to play low limit stud its better than a locals place like the Orleans. If you are willing to pay more the Mirage used to offer (havent heard if its changed) $79 weekday/109 weekends with 8 hours of play, but its for any limit game so will always be able to get in your hours. Bellagio last I heard was 109/149 with the same 8 hour requirement. This weekend is going to be tough though with the holiday...good luck.
Good opportunity there. Lots of 5-10 and 10-20 tables (10 of each). Players for the most part aren't very strong (the guy next to me played any hand all the way if 1 of his cards was higher than a 10). New tables opened I had one of those days though, where during one 11 hand run, the highest card I had was a 9. Managed to break even even though I won 1 hand, when I was dealt AA and the cards then came 235, 4 8.
One semi-pro I recognized there dropped $1800 in an hour at 10-20 in a bad run vs. these players. There are some players who are quite good.
Ok, I tried it on Friday night. Easy to download, easy to use. Easy to get them the $$, no commissions.
I played for about 2-3 hours 3-6 and then 4-8. No 10-20 going, also no seats at the full 4-8 table for hours, so I always played in a short game (3-4 people).
I liked it. The first game was easy, one poor player (IMHO), we could smell the blood, and my cards were very good. I won $120 in 30 minutes at 3-6, amazing. I then lost most of it back in a shorthanded 4-8 at 3:30 AM, I was playing very poorly, too tired. I came out ahead and I have cashed in, I want to see the check before I play more.
Positives: Good design, can play from home, no smoke, no tokes needed.
Negatives: Cannot see the players. I did not realize how much I use sight/general feel of others' emotional wellbeing and tells to play. It is amazing, and I missed it. I also missed a list, I could never get onto the table I wanted.
Mark the K
The method to cash out is not real obvious as you can't process a check out of the cashiers cage; they want you to send an email with your account number and amount to cash.
Being cautious with online offshore poker, I want to cash out my buy-in and play with the meager profits until a legitimate check arrives.
Did you send an email to deltasupport or deltabanker?
BTW, no tokes is a great way to play for a change, the money flowing off the table for tokes is normally significant.
Hi Chin,
I emailed, I then checked later and found my account at zero. I await my check, which I believe will come as advertised.
Mark
I emailed deltabanker, got a confirmation within 3 hours, and got a check in 3 days
Is anyone aware of when the poker room is scheduled to open at the Turning Stone Casino in New York State?
What about the poker rates for rooms and lastly what games will the poker room host?
Thanks for your help!
Selected excerpts from rgp:
********************************************************
The woman I spoke with today (August 31st) said that the room will have 15 tables and will feature HEM, stud, and stud/8. The limits will begin at $1-5 but they hope to offer larger games as demand warrants.
I was told earlier that they probably will not spread Omaha at this time.
For updates and/or further info call 800-771-7711 and ask for the poker room manager, Guy Centore.
As a native Syracusan who returns as often as possible, I look forward to this room's opening. It provides just one more excuse to go "home."
ehutchison@aol.com
Edward Hutchison
Jackson, MS *******************************************
Just called them today.They said September 13.
*********************************************
According to the most recent Card Player, mid-September. The 15th, IIRC.
*********************************************
They say they will open Sept 13, lets hope they stick to this date this time.
Bill in Rochester NY.
*********************************************
Are there any casino/poker room in Houston, Texas.
Anyone know of a bookseller carrying the Biggest Game in Town by A. Alvarez?
Neither Conjelco or the Gamblers Book CLub list ii on their online catalogs, and Barnes and Noble won't order it for me as it's out of print.
Thanx
There are lots of copies available at bibliofind.com.
Brett
Is caffeine bad for poker-playing?
-Abdul
No, caffeine is required for poker-playing.
I'm not sure. But a guy named Jihad or something once wrote a detailed post on it, citing some Australian research as I recall. See the archives. ;-)
Yeah, yeah, I've read the post by Abdul Jihad (see link below.) After reading the follow-ups I wasn't sure that caffeine was a good thing. A couple people thought that Jihad's feeling of the effect of a swig of coke or espresso within seconds couldn't be true, since caffeine takes longer to reach the brain. Poker is long periods of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror, so I'm not so sure a long term stimulant is what you want. What you really want is a quick-acting stimulant like a shot of adrenaline or, I hate to say it, a puff of a cigarette for the nicotine, which you could indulge in when you first put chips into the pot. Chocolate has two different kinds of simulants in it, caffeine and something else... I wonder if you could smoke chocolate and get an instant hit of the stimulants? :-)
Anyway, after reading Roy Cooke's article and that thread, I decided to give up caffeine. My poker results for the subsequent months have been good, but usually I run well and only occasionally I run poorly anyway. I have noticed little if any difference in my awareness at the tables; I'm as bored as ever. Really the only effect I have seen is a decrease in trips to the bathroom, which is admittedly quite valuable.
However, I fell off the wagon yesterday and had some coke (coca-cola, I mean), so before it's too late for me to get back on the wagon, I wanted to see if someone could talk me out of drinking caffeine.
-Abdul
I've been addicted to Dr. Pepper most of my life, regular when I was young and diet now that I'm not. I really don't think the caffeine affects my play, but then I drink 8-10 cans a day. It is getting harder to sleep the older I get, though.
Brett
After eight soft drinks no wonder you can't sleep. I love the taste of coffee but I mix about 2/3 decaf in my morning cups and have one full one in the late afternoon and that is it. Any more and I have no shot at sleeping.
Regards,
Rick
IIRC, your 8-10 cans of pop a day equates to only about 2-3 cups of coffee. So, spread out over an entire day, it's probably not really all that much (compared to the caffeine consumption of the typical American office worker).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
(who consumes about 80-100 ounces/day of diet Coke, diet Dr. Pepper, and the like)
3 Bet,
They are talking about Caffiene not Cocain. You drink it not snort it!
Vince.
As a software engineer I don't intake caffeine unless absolutely needed then I prefer double expressos black. My ability to code sees a big decrease over the first time I would sleep and then seems to level out [1]. I've only really pushed it to just over 72 hours so I don't know where the next big drop off is.
[1] The biggest effect for me is my sleep cycle. I have the hardest time focusing when I would either be going to sleep (midnight or so) or waking up (say 6-8). If I apply caffeine during those times I can stay away from it the rest of the time.
1) I feel it reduces focus. Alert without focus isn't all its cracked up to be.
2) I acheive a tolerance fairly quickly. Thats part of the reason I don't take caffeine other then when I need to stay awake.
I occasionally drink a 1/4 cup of black coffee when I'm sitting at a really good game and need to stay awake. I found that there is some sort of psychological effect just due to the smell of coffee for me. But then that might be that the local cardrooms coffe could pass as drain cleaner.
THE single most effective thing I've found for increasing the amount of time I can play is to remove my contacts. The feel of sticky contacts means "sleep" to me and there just doesn't seem to be a way of overridding the quickly following drowsy feeling.
BTW, did you read the potlimit and alcohol thread in RGP?
mph
"A couple people thought that Jihad's feeling of the effect of a swig of coke or espresso within seconds couldn't be true, since caffeine takes longer to reach the brain."
Perhaps there's a psychosematic effect involved? Could you have a partner offer you caffeine-free Coke and regular Coke at different intervals to see if it affects you?
I've always thought that the "sugar rush" from cola was a major part of the stimulation, and the taste of sugar in the cola definitely has some form of psychological effect on me.
What you really want is a quick-acting stimulant like a shot of adrenaline
Adrenaline is a very powerful weapon, and I think it's fairly easy to induce the body to produce some. After looking at my cards and finding a playable hand, I tend to pause for a second or two to psyche myself up for "battle." I consider every hand to be a small-scale war, if you will. (This doesn't work as well in multi-way pots; I'm referring mainly to heads-up confrontations.) At this point, the adrenaline is pumping! I think this makes me extra-aggressive to a small extent, but since one of my flaws in the past was playing too passively, I consider this is a good thing. I find myself raising with hands that I would have called with or folded before, and invariably, these raises are correct. Even a player with an appropriate level of aggression could be well served by a brief pause to take a breath and achieve the appropriate mental state.
I drink alot of coffee when I play. I need this not as a quick stimulant, just something to keep me more alert than otherwise for the really loose midnight to six crew. I gave up cigarettes, yet will not abstain from caffeine without cutting back on session hours. This however is not practical for me at this time. I believe excess caffeine is bad for my body, but not for my poker game.
Colas tear me up under normal circumstances, but not while playing poker. I get more jittery, yet can play tighter, though I whine more about the cheese I fold. If I'm on a cola buzz AND a heater, I'll win the table.
Caffeine supposedly is bad for your nervous system.
So here is my paranoia on why I don't drink coffee.
I love coffee, but almost never drink it
Reason: I don't want to make it to the big games and have my fingers start shaking.
Abdul,
I think it depends on who you are. I'm not awake without a few cups of coffee myself. I won't play without it.
Other folks would have a stroke.
:-)
I'm quite a caffeine junkie, and it doesn't seem to affect me one way or the other (except for some reason when I'm physically tired after excersize.)
I have found, and maybe this is psychosomatic, that 40mg of gingko biloba 3 times a day makes me feel calmly alert most of the time (my pills are also cut with ginseng.) This effect seems reversed if I get dehydrated. Anyone else tried the stuff?
I use a combination Ginko Biloba and St. John's Wort. My moods have improved considerably.
Is Caffeine bad for poker playing?
Yes! It is a drug, and drugs are bad period. I used to drink coffee all day long. It is just an addictive habit. Something you don't need--but will think you do. Kick the habit and drink lots of water instead. It's all in your mind anyway.
I had to be in the bay area for a meeting last Tuesday, and with nothing else to do Monday night I decided to head out for some poker (actually I would have found a way to play even if I did have something tovdo For the first hour I gave a poker clinic on how to throw away 9-3o, 7-2o etc. Oh well, it beats getting marginal cards and loosing. Down around $120 and haven't gotten past a flop yet, I get A3s on the button. Early position player(EPP) raises, 4 callers to me. I call, BB reraises, all call. Flop is Axx, with 2 of my suit. EPP bets, solid lady player raises, a couple callers to me. Now I begin to wonder about the "inverse law of outs", which simply means that if you have too many outs and feel too good about them, you won't hit one. Throwing caution to the wind, I raise, and it ends up capped 4 ways. A blank hits the turn, checked to me, and I bet out, get 2 callers. Hit the flush on the river and take in a very nice pot.
Nothing super interesting happened to me the rest of the night. Pocket AA once, bet it all the way, and it held up unimproved. Mostly no-brainer cards, very clear decisions to play or fold. I stayed +/- $50 almost all night, and finally cashed out around 10:30 -$65. The guy to my left went on a major run though, going from all-in with his last $12 in a small pot, and running it up to 700-800 in about 2 hours.
The hands that cost me the most were big unsuited connectors in raised pots. IE KQ or QJ on the button, one raiser in front, I call, and one of the blinds re-raises, and its 2 or 3 bets to me. Hate to throw it away, so I call and see the flop, which invariably misses me. This happened several times. I have to back to my reading to see if these hands should be played. Calling the upfront raise in late position seems right, but the raises from the blinds were creating problems.
The other thing I noticed was related to chip denomination. Home in Chicago I play 5-10, which is played with $5 chips. The 6-12 was played with $2 chips. Of course, this makes big looking pots, which is generally regarded as good for creating action. However, I found it making a $12 raise look intimidating because of the number of chips involved. It took me a little while to get back to thinking in terms number of bets instead of number of chips.
Overall, I really liked playing at Bay101. The $3 button charge (vs the 10% rake to $5 here in the midwest) is more expensive, IMHO, but there is no smoking, so there is a big health benefit. Now all I need is a reason for another meeting.....
Rich Van Ollefen
If anyone has raised, and you're NOT the big blind, you should almost always fold KQ, QJ, and the like when they're unsuited. If you do this every time, you will almost never be making a mistake. And, when it is a mistake, it will be a rather small one.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
GREG!!!! HOW COULD YOU??? That's one of the major secrets to limit hold'em, esp. loose, passive games. Actually, unsuited A,J-T; K,Q-T; Q,J-T; & J,T; should also be thrown away when there's NO raise most of the time. 8 big pieces of cheese; if you always folded them, you'd never miss them.
Obviously people that havent played the 6-12 game at Bay 101. I play many many hours in this game and you incorrectly assume that raises from early position means a big hand. There is often so much action that unless you are up against a known decent player, you can't really put him on much. The key in this game is to play position and play it well and if you throw away quality hands when you have position obviously you are losing that battle. Being disciplined and throwing away that KQ when the flop doesn't fit should go without saying. Believe me unless you have played in this game and seen how many times someone raises up front with 8-7 suited or worse, you wouldn't understand. I suppose if you really wanted to protect a small bankroll you might play tight, but I dont suggest it. Your strategy may be correct in a typical 15-30 game in Vegas, but its way too tight for the live games at Bay 101.
IMO, you're wrong. Hands like KQo and QJo (per the original post) just don't play well in multiway pots. If these guys are jamming preflop with relatively weak hands, then your optimal strategy is probably to just play VERY tight preflop and wait for monster cards to beat them with. Since they are building such big pots for you, you can profitably wait for big pairs and suited As, and fold pretty much everything else. Playing big unsuited cards in these games adds tremendously to your variance, and adds little or nothing to your EV.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Well that might be true, but you also don't see how badly they play after the flop. It would take hours to give all the examples I could think of, but basically its all passive players chasing the raiser along. I find that I win more because I play much better than average after the flop so to maximize that factor I need to play more hands. I agree if it was a tough game with quality deceptive opponents then you might just wait for a big pot, but these are gamblers and you are giving up a good deal of EV if you just wait for big hands, not to mention most players in these games tend to notice the few rocks I know of and don't give them much action. Besides I rarely do play QJ off in early position as it is, even unraised.
Rick,
There was a post on the Strategy Forum regarding HE rakes. You mentioned in your response that the 15-30 Stud game at Hollywood Park takes the rake from the antes. I was wondering how much does the house take per hand.
Thanks,
Carlos
Carlos,
I believe it is $3 on a full table. I'm not sure how much it drops short handed but it does drop (I'll try to remember to check on Saturday - I'm off Thursdays and Fridays). Note that it is even taken on an "ante" steal per California law.
Regards,
Rick
Thanks for the response Rick. You know, I was in Hollywood Park a couple of weeks ago and I tried to stop by and say hi but you were too busy running around shuffling players from a broken game. Maybe next time I'm there you'll not be so busy :).
carlos
Would appreciate some rec's on HE software.
Turbo Texas Hold'em (3.0) from Wilson Software. This allows you to play against it, and is good for practice when you're just starting out and are having trouble reading the board. It also does both no fold'em simulations and more realistic simulations with its simulated players.
Mike Caro's Poker Probe. This only does no fold'em simulations, but it does it for a wide variety of games. Caro is working on a new version, so you might wish to wait on this one.
You can probably order them from ConJelCo (link at left.)
-Abdul
Hello, I am a First-year student at Columbia University, and a very serious poker player. I would be interested in finding a good manhattan club, with 5-10,10-20 stakes, and a good reputation.
I know that you have to be sponsered to get into these places, so if any of you guys play consistently at places like the Diamond Club or Mayfair Club, I would really like to know. Send me an email at aab61@columbia.edu, I would really appreciate some general advice on how to proceed. Thanks in advance.
Alex
Regardless of its quasi-legal status, online gambling presents an entire raft of risks. Key questions include: Will your personal information be handled securely (for example, will the credit card number you're paying with be stolen or the fact that you're gambling at all be leaked)? What if the gaming site is hacked? Could you be playing against cheating insiders or players acting in collusion? Are the games implemented correctly and fairly? Is the software secure? In response to the last question, we have demonstrated that the answer is no.
The Software Security Group at Reliable Software Technologies (www.rstcorp.com) has discovered a serious flaw in the implementation of Texas Hold 'em Poker that is distributed by ASF Software, Inc. (www.asfgames.com). We have exploited this flaw in the lab. Our exploit allows a player (us) to calculate the exact deck being used for each hand in real time. That means a player using our exploit knows the cards in every opponent's hand as well as the cards that will make up the flop (cards placed face up on the table after rounds of betting). We can win every time. A malicious attacker could use our exploit to bilk innocent players of actual money without ever being caught. ASF Software and all of their online casino customers have been notified of the flaw.
Currently we know of three online casinos (www.planetpoker.com, www.purepoker.com, and www.deltacasino.com) that appear to use ASF Software's implementation of Texas Hold 'em Poker. All three Websites allow players to compete for real money. There is also a demo casino (www.casinococo.com) that allows players to gamble with play money. We used our exploit against the demo casino. We also demonstrated, without actually cheating, that it could be used against real money casinos.
The flaw exists in the card shuffling algorithm used to generate each deck. Ironically, the code was publicly displayed at www.planetpoker.com/ppfaq.htm with the idea of showing how fair the game is to interested players (the page has since been taken down). In the code, a call to randomize() is included to produce a random deck before each deck is generated. The implementation, built with Delphi 4 (a Pascal IDE), seeds the random number generator with the number of milliseconds since midnight according to the system clock. That means the output of the random number generator is easily predicted. A predictable "random number generator" is a very serious security problem.
There are a number of other problems in the implementation that could lead to complete security compromise. We have only exploited the easiest one at this time.
The broad take home message from this work is simple: when software misbehaves, bad things can happen. Our mission in the Software Security Group is to stamp out insecure code before it is placed in service. Members of the group involved with the Gambling exploit are: Brad Arkin, Frank Hill, Scott Marks, Matt Schmid, and TJ Walls. The Software Security Group is led by Dr.Gary McGraw.
Folks,
In my day job I deal with some of the people at Reliable SoftwareTechnologies. I would pay attention to this post.
Chuck
Scott,
I am a programmer, I own a pretty well known software firm, I still program quite a lot, and I wondered about problems like this. (I played at one of these online casinos, I found that not seeing my opponents killed the fun, even though I won a bit.) I also worried a bit about not getting paid, but they did pay me.
Please explain though, I am not an expert at all in security (I have written compilers though): If the seed is random, a random time, for instance, how can you know the card order? Are you saying that the card you get first (or any position) determines the whole deck, so that if you know the first (or any) card, you know them all? Bad algorithm!! I would love to see this algorithm. Is it still posted somewhere?
Thanks for the alert, I won't play again til they post a fix!
Mark the K
Mark the K wrote: Please explain though, I am not an expert at all in security (I have written compilers though): If the seed is random, a random time, for instance, how can you know the card order? Are you saying that the card you get first (or any position) determines the whole deck, so that if you know the first (or any) card, you know them all? Bad algorithm!! I would love to see this algorithm. Is it still posted somewhere?
There's a moderately technical writeup at http://www.rstcorp.com/news/gambling-tech.html which should answer your questions. ASF Software (which is what runs Planet Poker and the other live Texas Hold'em games) has changed their software so that our exploit no longer works. This doesn't imply that it's safe to play, however. I suspect that there are other problems, but without seeing the new algorithm, that is only a guess.
Scott,
Great paper. I understand most of what you wrote...not all. If I had the algorithm, I imagine it would be much more clear. But no matter: Chills down my spine! No kidding. Two of my favorite things, software and poker. I am jealous, what a fun project...
Mark
Scott,
I've been using Planet Poker as a teaching tool and found your posts and link fasinating. I do sense that Planet Poker attempts to make their site honest, but obviously intentions and reality may not coincide.
In their defense, they did refund a fair amount of money to our account based on an investigation of the problem. I will link to the security firms website to see if they can find other problems.
Regards,
Rick
They refunded money to your account? Does that mean someone actually WAS exploiting the problem and they caught them?
Dan,
Yes. They identified the problem in a cover email that they sent me. According to some chat from last night's 3/6 game, it mostly happened late at night in the 10/20. Some players seemed to know names (albeit screen names) based on their suspicions and the fact that certain players are no longer playing.
I'm convinced the owners are honest enough but this kind of thing may remain vulnerable to hackers. We will continue to use it as a learning tool as I can't imagine this happening at the 3/6 level.
BTW, the technical paper linked in one of the above posts is worth reading if you get a chance. Also RGP has quite a few threads on the issue.
Regards,
Rick
The archives of the poker forum are getting huge. Even though they are divided up monthly, they are huge. The July 1999 archive contains over 2,000 messages and takes a long time to load.
I am proposing that the browsable archives (except for the most recent archive) be discontinued in favor of an Adobe Acrobat PDF file containing all of the posts for a particular month. This file could be easily downloaded to your machine and read (and/or printed) using a free copy of the Adobe Acrobat Reader (available at www.adobe.com).
What you'd give up is the ability to browse the messages individually.
Since this is a rather big change, I am asking for comments on the idea. I will not implement any change until there has been a full opportunity for the community to discuss it. Please do not send me e-mail directly on this. It will be better if the discussion is here, on the Exchange forum.
Thanks,
Chuck
Chuck,
You and 2+2 provide a great service here. If making this change means you save either time or money, then go for it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
would the archives still be searchable by keywords? if not, then that would be a problem IMO.
Yes, with a more sophisticated search utility.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say that we could no longer "browse the messages individually." I take it that the PDF file would replicate the full month's archive, complete with index, so that after loading it one could (as now) click on a message from the index and go the message and thread. Right? Also, could you just load the messages in threaded order without the index? Also, consider that a more accessible archive could reduce the number of repeated questions and the time devoted to current posts, and would thus help control the size of future archives.
Otherwise, I'd echo what Greg said. Just don't lose anything.
When I first started reading here over a year ago I would go through the archives to get myself caught up on what had been previously posted.
I don't always read the posts here. From time to time I would like to go to the archives to "catch up" on past discussions. But every time I do it takes forever to bring them up and navigate, so I don't even bother anymore.
Any inprovement in my opinion would be welcome. Personally I would just like to be able to see every post, and all of the follow ups for that thread, in order, and then just read the ones that I want. In other words without having to click on each individual post. They are all just laid out in order. No clicking back and forth.
I haven't read here since the WSOP. I would like to go back to that point and "catch up." But I don't bother because of the hassles. Am I doing something wrong and is your proposal an improvement to what already exists?
What is a PDF file? Why do I need to download new software? If I do go through all of this will the access be quick, or quicker than it is now? Thank you for any response.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuck,
Could you guys just have and index of the threads and if someone wants to read a particular thread then download only the corresponding messages, as opposed to all of the messages and threads for that month?
carlos
Someone asked if the archives would still be searchable.Are they searchable now?
I think having a search feature would be most valuable. The postscript files might be ok to download after the search.
David
Hi Chuck,
I had written MM about separating the individual poker games into categories. At the top of the page before you put in Your Name up above it you would have different listings: HE X, 7CS _ , O _ ,O/HL _, Etc. by placing the games into individual categories immediately you can do a great deal more with the archives later on. You could combine months of O & O/HL, 7CS could probably be monthly. HE could be twice a month categories. The Key to archives is to start it at the initiation of the thread. For searching purposes you would be under 7CS and ask about 2 flushes on third street. Since you are already in 7CS this is no problem. By separating and dividing you conquer the archives. This would also make the researcher searching 7CS to easily access all threads on 7CS. If you are looking to start playing a new game like O8/HL you go to that column and read. Just my thoughts.
Paul
If the only problem is the load time then a different division of the archives could be used (say by the week the thread started). If you are going to post the information in a digest format I would argue that text is the primary format you should consider. A format like PDF is harder to manipulate and search over.
Chuck,
A lot of us don't have a feal for what the new acrhives would look like and how we would work with them. Would it be possible to take one month of the older (and smaller) archives and do the conversion so we can see for ourselves?
Anyway, things I believe that are important:
- we don't lose any posts or information
- we can cut and paste together the best threads for our notes and files.
- we are able to view threads in something close to the reverse threaded listing that we are used to even if we lose some HTML formatting.
I am also confused about the archives (which look like the original threads) versus the digest (which is a continuous document with all posts - I think). Which one are you talking about changing to PDF (if not both)?
Anything that would get them to load faster would be appreciated.
Regards,
Rick
Any one know anything about the 9-18 HE game at Ocean's 11? Is it usually a good game to play? (John, know anything about it? Also, how's the 8-16 game at the Village Club these days?)
I'll be in San Diego this weekend and was interested in playing that limit.
And I don't think my bankroll is ready to jump into the 20-40 game. So any leads for a good 9-18 or 10-20 game a appreciated.
carlos
Carlos -- My impression of the O-11 9-18 game is that it ranges from very good to just okay. On a weekend it might be especially good, but I don't really know as I never get there on the weekends. I was at VC a couple of days ago and the 8-16 looked good. Tough to predict which would be better, but I would think either should be good on the weekend. Call either place in advance though. Cardrooms here can be very unpredictable on weekends. Maybe the 3-day weekend will make them busier than usual. (I'd email you with more thoughts, but my ISP is having email problems at the moment.)
Could you please reveal to the group some of your secrets for getting along with people so well? I have known you for a long time and I am always impressed with your abiltiy to get along with everybody. I also believe that this has a lot to do with your very high skill of not going on "tilt" or getting upset or emotional when you play cards.
I've never seen you lose it. Not once. (Although there was a rumor going around that you did one time.)
I firmly believe that the best players in the world (you included)possess this inate abiltiy called emotional discipline. However, although it may come naturally to people like you, there are many, many poker players in the world that could improve their game greatly, if they only possessed this one character trait. Thanx Ray Happy fishing.
Bobby who?
there are a few on the forum that will not agree with you about getting along. i always try to treat everyone as an equal unless they spoil it and listen to what they have to say.
TWIMC,
LV was a drag as in "CIGARETTE". I played at the "Shoe" the den of dungeons. I had to shower after every session to get the smoke and sometimes drinks off me. The 7CS 1-5 game with no ante, produced me to come up with a name for these players "stalagtites". The players would piss and moan if they got low card because it would cost them a dollar. The game S-----. I did play O8/HL for the first time and that was fun, whether it was because I lucked out and had a good group or I was excited to play for the first time I don't know.
Thank you Jessica for that Metro Pizza suggestion. It was awesome. The best I ever had. They have a web site: www.metropizza.com There are three locations.
My next vacation will be smoke free cards for sure. I really think this is a problem for the non-smoker. If there are only 2 out of 8 smoking why do we put up with it?? I did go over to the Mirage, Bellagio, Orleans, Etc. the bottom line every table had a cigarette hanging out of it's mouth. Sorry to be bitching, but I won't go back to LV until the card rooms go smoke free. Like WGAF.
Paul
There is usually a $1-5 non smoking table at the Bellagio. Usually the one directly behind the sign up desk. My experience has been that often, even at the smoking tables at that level, people will get up to smoke. When you sign up to play $1-5, just ask for the non-smoking table.
Tom
It sure sucks to play in LV when you are use to California. 1) Binion's is on the bad end of things. Even the Orlean's is better. 2) I believe that there is a bias towards smokers at the 1-5 7CS tables. More old rocks with smokes hanging out of their mouthes then at other games. 3) I find it easier to get women to move their cigarettes away from me then men. A simple request or a gesture of waveing the smoke away from your face usu. does the trick.
Heh, O/8 is a riot. If you are playing low limit its pretty tedious but seems like a good way to (re)build your BR.
mph
Paul now you make good sense with this post. i agree.
While I can understand why someone not like second-hand smoke,a legitimate question arrises:JUST WHO OWNS THE AIR,ANYWAY?
Hi,
Does anyone know where I can order one of those portable fans that blow smoke away, over the Internet ?
Thanks in advance,
Andy.
I've created a PDF version of the May 1999 archive as well as an html version. For me, at least, the PDF version downloads just fine while the html version "stalls". This may have something to do with the slow link I have from home.
You can look for yourself. Here is the PDF version and here is the HTML version.
To read the PDF version you'll need a copy of the free Adobe Acrobat Reader available at http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/acrobat/readstep.html#reader.
Chuck
Chuck,
These late night comments might be a bit premature but I'd like to get the ball rolling anyway with a few thoughts and observations.
I updated Adobe Reader 3.0 to Adobe Reader 4.0 no problem via the website. In the past I have used Adobe to read online manuals and stuff and know the basics.
I downloaded the May Archive (actually it looks more like the Digest)in PDF format. The archive was 1,594,256 bytes in this format and took eight minutes to load using my ever deteriorating Earthlink ISP which really isn't bad for the length. Earlier tonight from another computer I tried to download the HTML version and it was incomplete.
Reading the 400 plus pages with Adobe seems pretty easy. I was also able to copy pieces to MS Word and the formatting was awkward until I used Auto Format and then it looked OK in my limited sample (I want to use MS Word to insert my own notes on key threads).
I do have a problem with the arrangement of the digest/archives that may have nothing to do with the conversion to Adobe PDF (I believe I noticed this in previous Digests). I'll try to illustrate the problem using the following example.
1. I copied the document to a file where the Adobe reader could read it offline.
2. On page 35 I saw a post by Dan Hanson titled "RE: slow playing top 2 pr?". This clearly was not the lead post.
3. Using the find feature in Adobe I found the lead post and some followups on page 26, 27 and 28. Then there was another group of posts on page 32 and then Dan's post on page 35. In between were unrelated posts.
4. Going back to the 2+2 website I called up the May Archives and got the message index. The message index has all the posts in the thread organized in the classic reverse threaded listing which is easy to work with (but time consumming to retrieve).
My question is "Why aren't the archives organized in the same sequence as the message index?" This format would make it a lot easier to follow the threads.
Anyway, thanks for your efforts so far.
Regards,
Rick
Chuck,
Couldn't resist trying to download the HTML version and it did hang up after about 200 kilobytes. I did get enough to note the same problem with the organization of the posts mentioned above. Also, if you have time to answer I am curious about the following.
Assuming the HTML version would load, would it be about the same size as the PDF version?
Why does the HTML version hang up but not the PDF version?
Regards Again,
Rick
Will there be indices for the finished Acrobat format archive files? In otherwords will we be able to use the search utilities available in version 4.0, or will we be limited to the Find function's bi-directional word search?
Andrew,
I'm still a little confused about Chuck's plan. I hope they will still keep the archives in both the linked web pages format (in which you load the index and one post at a time) and the Digest format, which I assume is what the PDF files will replace.
A way I would like to work with such a format would be to load the PDF Digest archives into a folder along with the corresponding message index. Then I could assemble key threads (deleting the junk) into a MW Word document and make notes and comments.
The problem is that, as mentioned above, the Digest messages (whether in HTML or PDF format) don't seem to follow the reverse threaded index in the archives. I'm not sure why this is the case.
I'm also confused as to why a PDF file loads without hanging up but the HTML file hangs up. Is the size that different or are there other factors. Not that it matters, I'm just curious.
Regards
Rick
An acrobat index is not the same as a forum index. The organization of a PDF file is presumably Chuck's decision. Chronological format would certainly be improved if there were jumps to each of the responses embedded in the document at the end of each post. At least the post numbers of each immediate response should appear at the bottom, while the post number of the parent should appear at the top so that one could Ctrl+F these numbers for the entire document. The threading aspect in some form really does need to be preserved, we are in complete agreement here.
Hi everybody!
I am traveling from Boston (Beantown that is!) Massachusetts to Jacksonville Florida. I will leave Boston on the 18th of October. First stop Foxwoods for some 10-20 to 20-40 7 Stud/Holdem play. Second stop, the Daimond club in NY City for some Holdem play. Third stop Atlantic City N.J. for stud/holdem fun. Fourth stop somewhere between AC and Biloxi Mississippi. 5th Stop Biloxi Mississippi for some Southern Comfort, I mean southern Holdem. Last stop Jacksonville Florida.
Trip: One Way. Trip time: 10 days. Mode of Transportation: 23' Class C RV.
Anyone interested in joining me on this trip please respond to me via e-mail. E-Mail address is leporeva@hotmail.com.
Vince.
10 days with Vince in a van? Sounds like a dream come true! (a very bad dream, that is). (o:~
Brett
3 Bet old Buddy!
Why if I knew you would go I'd keep the RV for 10 weeks! Talking poker with you would be the best way I know to keep my mind off the game! The laughs just wouldn't stop!
Vince.
If you make it to NYC by 6:00 on Monday night, there is a fun little O8 tournament ($10+3 buyin with unlimited rebuys for the first hour). Some people rebuy like crazy, so you can win over $400 for first place even if there is only one table! Tuesday night, there is a pot limit hold'em ring game starting at 6:00. It is a pretty good game, with only 2-5 blinds. Minimum buy-in is only $300, so it is a great and inexpensive way to take a shot at playing this challenging structure of poker.
You should call first if you are not already a member and ask for John or Billy. 727-1956. They are reasonable guys, but don't always welcome "drop-ins" with open arms unless a player that is present knows you.
Thanks!
Vince
If I spent 10 weeks with you in a van, Sklansky would be commenting on my "creative" posts. Of course, some of us talk about poker, and some of us play. ;-)
BTW, are you sure the doctors said it was OK for you to drive?
Brett
3 Bet,
I always liked Sklansky. So perceptive. But, believe me even I couldn't fix your hum drum posts in 10 weeks.
Vince.
Well, Sklansky is much more your contemporary than mine. Maybe when I get to be your age, my posts will be "creative" and they'll say "Brett is Brett"
Until then, I'll just have to be satisfied with being young and handsome.
Brett (maybe the only guy on 2+2 who would recognize Vince if he was sitting next to him. Of course, by then, it would be too late)
Until then, I'll just have to be satisfied with being young and handsome.
That you are my friend. That you are!
Vince.
BTW - Skalnsky lives better than me. He looks a lot younger.
For Betelgeuse and all others: I've just returned from 20 years on the west coast and the two best pokers rooms I've found in the Chicago area are Hollywood in Aurora and Harrah's in East Chicago. Empress in Hammond MAY stil spread poker, but the above two are my choices if I don't play in te Bay Area or Nevada. Any questions - e-mail me Bob
Empress in Joliet also has poker.
Unless there has been a very recent change, none of the Illinois Chicago Area casinos spread poker on Saturday. This is due to a combination of legal restrictions and management decisions.
Although legal restrictions were somewhat liberalized in the last legislative session, they did not remove the "1,200 gaming position" restriction which creates the incentive to close poker rooms on Saturday.
Thanks for your help, greatly appreciated and good luck.
I'm pretty sure Harrahs and the Empress in Hammond have poker on the weekend (I played at Harrah's yesterday). They are in Indiana but there aren't more than a 30 mind drive from Chicago.
So I think the 4 in the chicago land area are Harrahs, the Hollywood (in aurora), and the empress (one in joliet and one im hammond...)
Good luck
Perfectly legitimate question,Paul.
I've been reading, here and there, about Mr. S philosophy of expanding poker concepts into other areas and have enjoyed results. In that spirit, I have some questions: 1. Is there a shaddow government, which hides
truth about ufos, area 51, etc. 2. What's the story on crop circles? 3. Are there prehistoric monsters living in deep
lakes like Loch Ness, etc.? 4. Is there a "spiritual" e.g. extrasensory,
interconeccted, oceanic, component to human nature?
(all right, I've been listening to art bell)
My answers: 1 no 2 fakes 3 i doubt it 4 i doubt it
Respond or don't. Weigh in or igonre. Delete post if inappropriate. Thanks. Sorry. Etc. N.B.
I am trying to open a delta poker account. When I click download it won't let me download
email Joey at support@deltacasino.com
I am looking for copies of the old POKER PLAYER newspaper.Does anyone on this site have any old copies they might want to let go of?Quote me a price.
Even though I've played here since moving to Conn. last November, I only yesterday learned a rule here.
It's related to string-betting. In many clubs I've played in, if you come out with most of the chips needed to make a raise, and then go back to your stack to complete the raise, it's a raise. Many clubs have a specific "half or more of the raise" rule for these situations. At Foxwoods, even if you were to come out with 11 of the 12 chips needed to make a raise, and then went back to your stack to get that 1 extra chip, any other player in the hand can call a string bet, and you are ruled to have just called. If you announce "raise" anytime before your hand leaves your chips, then it's OK, and you can go back to your stack for more chips.
Normally, I always know rules like this. However, in 10 months of playing here, I have often seen people put out most of the needed chips, go back for more, and no problem. Apparently that's only because I never saw anyone get called on it before. I asked the floor for a ruling, and it's very clear that this is their rule. So, be sure to come out with too many chips, or say "raise" out loud.
I am also curious if anyone else who plays at this club was also unaware of this rule. Like I said, I simply never saw it applied in 10 months, because no player ever asked for it to be applied. Still, clearly my error.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
There are just a few semi-regular players who seem prone to invoking this, usually against non-regular players. Note that the dealers are not empowered to call any player's action a string bet. Thus it has become a bit of an angle for some. I personally prefer that if a player had intended to raise, that it stands as is. The player calling for a string also reveals information about the nature of his hand. This will almost always be a mediocre calling hand, but a marginal or bad cold-calling one. One time I was in a good 5-10 HE game with one of these *callers of strings* and deliberately made a string raise on the flop, which was promptly identified as such. Thing is, I wanted to convey the impression of strength without putting in a raise so that I would be able to take down the pot on the turn with a lead bet if a blank fell. Worked out as desired, so I do have some recourse with the rule violation nit-pickers.
Greg,
Yes I've had the pleasure of this being introduced to me at the tables at FW about 3 months ago. Since then I have seen it a number of times, I also saw it at the Horseshoe in LV. It seems it is becoming more popular, now that more people know about it. It has not happened to me since, because I either say raise or the amount or both when I'm going to bet. It can rattle your cage the first time, it did mine. Also because I was down at the time and the guy who called it on me I believe new I was the best player and he was having a field day so I was a threat to him.(PAIMH) It worked because it drove me out of the casino FW. I couldn't get it out of my head. Amateur I know. I thought I was the only one who didn't know that's why I never mentioned it. I think it's more prevalent in the 1-5 spread games because on the number of different bets 2 or 3 or 4 or 5. That's why I state the raise make it 8 etc. It works for me anyway. Hopefully you won't get strung out if you read this.
Paul
The casinos in Arizona have the same rule. It is rarely invoked, though. Every once-in-a-while, some nit will call it. I usually just announce the raise if I'm not sure that I have enough chips in my hand.
Brett
P.S. I'm suprised that the Horseshoe has the same rule, but who would want to play in that dump anyway?
Hey 3 bet,
Since when did you let rules, written or unwritten, bother you?
Vince
Vince, rest assured that if I'm ever in a position to call this rule on you, there will be no hesitation. Just listening to you whine would make it worthwhile.
Brett
I got called for this, the one time I played HE at The Oaks in the Bay Area, Haven't seen it anywhere else here.
David
Greg,
Is it true that getting a written copy of the Foxwoods rule book is harder than getting the plans for a W-88 nuclear warhead?
Regards,
Rick
I've heard this is so (i.e., that they simply will not give you a copy of the rules), but do not know it from first-hand knowledge.
My mistake was in simply going with the flow and not learning by asking. I am used to the rule that if you put out half or more of the extra bet, it is a raise, even if you say nothing.
At FW (and apparently a few other places) if you put out even one chip less than needed, it can be called a string-bet.
Clearly the lesson is to ALWAYS announce your raises (and calls) verbally, so there can be no confusion.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
What rule book? Like New England weather, if you wait awhile (floor manager's shift change) you'll get a different response. The floor ruling concensus would I'm sure be *raise intended* if made by a stranger in a 3-6 game (other than the small blind) splashing five whites, but if done by a regular at 10-20 a nickel short *string bet* for sure. So you see there's no need for uniform rules when their application will vary according to whim.
Greg,
I learned long ago in LV to always call the raise out verbally.
I have told my brother, who is an amazing 'home' poker player, who wants to start playing at Casinos, that he should a) Always call out his bets, and b) Protect his cards. I can see that protecting his cards is correct ALWAYS, but maybe he should make a few string bets so they think he is a sap Mark
I am planning a trip from Vegas to LA later this month. Are there any rules/customs I should be aware of in the LA area? Also what kind of food service is available at Hollywood Park and Crystal Park and how long can you be gone from the table? Thanks,
Randy Refeld
Hollywood park has a pretty extensive diner-sytle menu that can be delivered directly to the table (you can get massages at the table too.) Otherwise, there's a sandwich shop and a bar. You can be gone for 30min.
Tokes seem bigger. (In my 3-6 HE game there, $1 a pot minimum.)
TWIMC,
You can either call or email Kathy Raymond she is the Director of Poker Operations at FW. I'm sure she will answer all your ruling questions and how to obtain anything that you need. She is a very nice person and has helped me out on a number of occasions with my thousand questions. The phone # is 1-800-PLAY BIG and ask for her. Her email address is (KRaymond@mptn.org). Good Luck!!!
Paul
Please let us know if anyone actually gets ahold of these *official* FW poker room rules, either printed or otherwise. Kathy will give you specific ruling actions or interpretations, and answer questions as Paul suggests - but until I have at least seen such a rule book, its existance is dubious so far as I'm concerned.
Umm is there some point in all those IP addresses?
Yes. It makes it easier to tell who is posting.
Chuck
Chuck, I realize that this will help with screening some of the junk that has been going in the Forums. I also am glad that it can indicate when someone is spamming under multiple "names" (at least, it will until someone comes up with an IP address disguise program, similar to what they do with email addresses now)..
but, it makes the Forums a LOT harder to eyeball and scroll through now (at least the main pages)...
Suggestion- a link, instead, within the message header to allow someone to find out who the "person" is, exactly?
I'm getting a headache from browsing now... although the colored headers are a nice touch...
Good point! I think a reaonable compromise is that the IP address will show up on the individual messages, but not in the summary. I've already made this change.
Chuck
Chuck,
I'm not a TCP/IP wizard but isn't it true that when I dial up the ISP assigns a dynamic IP address from a pool of addresses to the connection?
So thus unique identification would seem circumstantial?
Depends on the ISP.
Recent r.g.p. posts suggest that light betting might be more of a problem than I thought. So if someone splashes a bet into the pot so that the dealer cannot reasonably determine if the right amount went in, why shouldn't that player automatically be required to put in an extra chip? I suppose that players might insist on counting down the pot, but splashing the pot should forfeit that right.
I have been persuaded to disable the posting of IP addresses. However, people posting to any of the 2+2 forums should know that if it becomes necessary to know the IP address associated with a message, I have access to that information after the fact.
Thanks for bearing with me as I've tweaked a few things over the last few days.
Chuck
I don't know what you're doing, Chuck, but I noticed that some of the "threads" in the archive now seem completely jumbled, with responding posts predating original posts and big chunks of threads dropping off and reappearing later. I'm also having trouble using the format selection menu. (For reference, I've been looking at Feb. 1999).
Chris- I can't comment on those changes- what browser are you using?
Chuck- With MS IE 5.0, everything looks great. I'll have to pay attention for jumbling, but my eyes thank you!
I take it from your note that you can dig for IP clarification when goaded to do so... go get 'em!!
Thanks for all of your work maintaining this, by the way... we as a group don't consider that enough.
Hello,
Recently I asked about the quality of the games in Oceanside's Ocean's 11 Card Club. I showed up last Sunday for some HE action. I sat down at a 4-8 HE game waiting for the floor to start the 9-18 HE game. The 4-8 game was pretty uneventful. Had one hand Ad8d in the button and the flop came KdTd8h. I played it a bit hard and a loose player who had raised 8c4c preflop spiked the 4 on the turn to win the pot with 2 pairs. Gotta love it! So I left the table down $20 or so. Not too bad I thought. Since I didn't notice any mistakes on my part.
Then sit down in the 9-18 HE game. I start out with a rack. I play 2 hands in the first 20 minutes and now I am down 1/2 a rack. It was amazing, but there was this guy that normally plays 20-40 HE, wearing a bermuda type shirt (I guess he likes to wear them since the next day he had another one), and would always reraise when in the pot, but he won this huge pot when he capped the action with a 97o and made a straight on the turn. I lost a pot to him when my 44 lost to his 23o (and he raised preflop, of course) on a board of 7235K. I checkraised the turn once I had the open ended straight only to be raised again. Once he left, the table was not on tilt anymore and the game became really tight and rather tough. It had been a long time since I had played in a tougher game, since most 9-18 and lower here in the Bay Area are not as tough. I noticed a lot of blind stealing and only 2 or 3 people seeing the flop on a raised pot. But I managed to get my buy-in back after 2 or 3 hours of play. Then I fluctuated between $100 ahead and $100 behind. Until I had this key hand.
UTG limped and all fold to me. I am on the button with 99 and raise. SB reraises. BB folds. UTG calls and I call. The flop came Qd9d9c. SB bets. UTG raises. I pause and call. Turn is the Kd. Not the best possible card, since I dont' have the nuts, but I was pretty sure no one had the TJd. SB bets. UTG calls. I raise. SB reraises. UTG folds. I reraise and we go 6 raises. River was an 8 and SB checks. I bet. SB calls. SB had QQ for the nut full house. But my quad 9's took the pot. I was ahead $150 at this point and decided I was tired after playing 5 hours or so. I went to the table where my friend was playing 3-6 (he is learning) to watch his play and give him some pointers.
The next day (Monday) I decided to play the Ocean's 11 tournament. It was a $50+$10 buy-in with unlimited $50 rebuys (T500) the first 3 levels, and a $100 add-on (T1500). The tournament started at 2pm. I didn't rebuy since I doubled my stack in the first 2 levels, only to lose all my 'profit' to this woman who kept outdrawing everybody. She amassed a large amount of chips, only to lose them in a matter of minutes once she was in the final 3 tables. So I end up the first 3 levels with my original amount of chips, T500. I add on, now I had T2000.
I play a tight aggressive game and slowly increase my chips. At some point it's the standard tournament play, tight and stealing blinds whenever possible. I get caught a couple of times, but manage to bounce back. I don't remember that many key hands from the tournament except the one that busted me out in 7th place. I had KQ on the button, a loose player raised and I decided to go all in. Maybe a bad play. But I was the 2nd shortest stack in the table and I figure that if I got a little lucky I could've taken all of this guy's chips and put me in good position. I got $970 for 7th. 6th paid $1150. 5th around $1300. 4th around $1500. 3rd around $1900. 2nd around $3000 and 1st paid $7,400. I felt it was worth making a move to make it to first place. It didn't work but I was still happy with my performance outlasting 122 entrants to make it to the final table. I left Ocean's 11 with a total profit of $950 or so for the 2 days I played there.
Carlos
KQo is only a 61:39 favorite over 2 random cards. When that person has elected to raise coming in from early position at the final table of a tournament, I doubt KQo is a favorite at all. Since you were the button, you could have gotten a look at 4 more hands before you were the big blind. I would have taken that look. You'll do better raising first in with JTo than calling here, because there will be a decent chance of winning immediately. I think you flipped a coin (at best) when you could have waited and likely found a better opportunity.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Are there any places that have poker lessons or seminars. I am new to the game and would like to take lessons from experienced people. Location is not an issue. Any response with details would be appreciated. thanks
WantToLearn,
Mike Caro is starting up his weekly classes again at Hollywood Park Casino in Los Angeles. I'm not sure of the exact day but let me know if you are interested and I will find out this weekend.
Rick
Just bring a few thousand to the mid-level games at bellagio. Everyone there will help you learn.
Brett
Bob Ciaffone gives private classes, check his website--I think this site has a link.
David Sklansky also offers private classes--pricey but likely worth it.
I guess it depends a bit on what game you see yourself playing.
I just wanted to mention that the new format of the Forums is beautiful! So much easier to use: less travel back and forth to the index; new posts easy to identify.
When was the last time anyone saw such nice end-user analysis on a web site?
Nice job!
The luckyLady cardroom in San Diego is starting a No-Limit Holdem game in San diego. The game will be on Mondays and Thurstays staritng at 1:00pm .The blinds are 3 and 5. The buy-in is $200.
Also, they have 15-30 holdem every afternoon with a only $3 dollar collection.
The online poker site, www.purepoker.com is giving a $100 tournament buy-in to all players who play 20 hours in a two week period,Details at support@purepoker.com
I am curious about how often and how long in a session does the average professional poker player play. By profesional I mean only those whose primary income is derived from poker winnings. Do they play eight hours a day, five days a week? I have always wondered about this and this forum is a great place to ask.
Thanks, Whitehackle
I play five or six days a week, anywhere from four to 10 hours a session. I think I averaged about 140 hours per month this year.
anyone care to give estimates of their win rates?
Currently three days a week. My mean session length for the past 100 sessions is 9.5 hours, with a median of 12 hours.
I play 7 days a week. 4 to 9 hours per session.
As the forum gets larger it might be interesting to investigate a rateing system for posts (like www.slashdot.org). This would allow the best posts to be found quickly and Mason could still moderate posts that didn't meet the standards of the community down to the level they wouldn't be a problem.
HI All-
("Mike" asked me specifically to post a trip report on Tunica........catching me by surprise....so here it is)
Well I have caught up on my sleep, cleaned the house and organized the family (4 slobs take over when I am traveling) and can now post a bit of a report.
I was most anxious to get back to Horseshoe Tunica and visit my many friends and play POKER!. It had been over a month since the Orleans/TOC and I was having poker withdrawal. Darn this living in the poker wasteland of WI. I had not been down there since Memorial Weekend and wanted to hear all the news since my last visit and also hear about their tournament success from early August.
Same great action as from Memorial Day. I arrived about Noon on Thursday and there were already two tables each of $10-20 and $20-40 Holdem. I was in heaven. I chatted with many friends, got a few hugs from the floor staff and sat down to play.
Action was strong, but I could not get any cards. I had the worst run of bad cards ever. Anyone who has played with me, knows that I come to play. For me to sit round after round and not play anything is very unusual. But that's what happened for 3+ days.
I got very few hands, and only a small % of them held up. I was battered, bruised and bleeding profusely. My occasional traveling companion "Karen" was with me and that helped keep me in perspective.
Karen and I play the same limits and same games, but try to stay at different tables as much as possible. Everyone knows we are friends and we don't want to create the specter of collusion. We play each other very hard, so that shouldn't be an issue if anyone is really paying attention, but still some people have commented on the possibility. What we usually do is show our cards at the end if we are in heads up and had been raising earlier when another person was still involved, so they know we have legitimate hands. Too bad we have to do that, but there have been grouches who have implied collusion and have asked to see our hands "every time" at showdown. That gives away more information than either of us would like about our playing styles.........so we try and stay apart as much as possible.
Anyhow......I lost and lost heavily for 3+ days. Karen and I would discuss it at breaks and meals. But she assured me I was still playing a good game, it was just bad cards. I just needed to stay in the game until the cards turned my way. We are good enough friends that if we are playing bad.....we will tell each other that we stink and take a break for a few hours. That must not have happened, because she kept encouraging me to just hang in there.
Well, fortunately that did happen on the 4th day. I finally got a good run of cards and racked up a $2100 win in $20-40 and then the final day won another $600 in the same game. Not enough to get out of the hole, but sure helped minimize the damage to my bankroll and restore some confidence.
Seems like the first few days on any poker trip I lose and then end up with a great run towards the end. I know I play better after several days and find it easier to hit the "zone" and where I can read others the best and make solid decisions........I just hate the pain and losses until I get there.
Players were gracious,and friendly as usual. There are a few grumps, but not bad. Floor and dealers keep players under control. My pet peeve is crude and profane language at the table. The dealers all know I object to it and do a great job reminding the offending players that "there is a lady at the table" generally one reminder is all it takes. I can understand someone who swears immediately after a bad beat, but cannot tolerate those who feel that f--k is appropriate multiple times in the same sentence.
But language was not a problem this trip. Comps were plentiful--just ask. Food gets served at the tables if you want from the snack bar and that menu is pretty varied. You can also get comps for the buffet for the asking and that is also a nice option. Karen and I try to take at least one meal together away from the tables, again to put things in perspective.
There are some great players in Tunica, some medium skilled ones, and some very poor (but wealthy) ones who like to play. Games are a good mix and get better as the day progresses. Early morning to mid afternoon on weekends is primarily the "regulars" who are tougher. But Friday nite and Saturdays, there are lots of recreational players with plenty of discretionary money to spend on poker.
Jack Keller (WSOP/Hall of Fame) is a fixture there on weekends in the pot limit game. He lives nearby. Not sure exactly why, but he also played awhile with us in a $10-20 Holdem game on Labor Day. Seemed odd to have him in our little bitty game. His sons Scott and Jack, Jr. also played with me some in $10-20 and $20-40 and Jack Sr. stopped by to watch the action before heading off to bed.
Local pro is Jerry Kyle and he is a fixture day shift Monday - Friday. Very nice, good for the game, but one tough player. He stacks and racks those chips consistently and his play is always solid. He is a great poker player and a good emissary for Horseshoe poker. Never gets out of line, polite, and a genuine nice guy. He has a good tournament record also, took 3rd at a Rio event last January and also won the Poker Dealers Championship at the 4 Queens a few years ago.
Rooms are $25 during the week and $35 on weekends. Combine that with free food (just tip the chip runner) and non-stop great games, you just can't beat it.
On this newsgroup I probably sound like a paid promotor of the Horseshoe because of the many compliments I have thrown out about Horseshoe Tunica, but that isn't the case. Anyone who knows me/has played with me, knows I am highly opinionated and give mine freely. You couldn't pay me enough to say something I don't believe. This IS a wonderful spot with the best mid-limit games I have ever seen.
From all I have heard, their August Tournament that ran 4 days was a resounding success. Don't be surprised if they put together a major tournament before too long. They have the talent and as we all know..........Jack Binion is committed to poker. His sister may not be, but Jack is. With this great property, a major tournament seems a natural.
Timing was everything during this long weekend. I happened to be there when the Cardplayer 9/3/99 issue came out. Many players saw Mike Sexton's column and nice comments about me and the Discovery Channel Documentary from the TOC. So many sweet things were said, that I was on a glow for the whole weekend (helped a lot with the pain I was feeling at the tables). Got to the point that one of my friends, Larry Evans, got a reputation as my press agent for telling everyone what a celebrity I was and "go check page 20 in Cardplayer". We had lots of fun with that. Thanks to Mike's column, my "15 minutes of fame" went on and on and on........
Despite the crushing loss I sustained (worst ever) I am ready to return at the very first opportunity to go back to Tunica. I know I can get my money back......or at least have a great time trying.
Diane from Green Bay
Thanks Diane----nice report. You really do like that place?
We had to cancel our Labor Day holiday run to Tunica (my wife is still mad about this) but might go on the Columbus Day weekend. Certainly will go back when they have the next big tournament.
Be sure to post the info here when you get the dates/air times on that Discovery Channel special.
Abe
Excellent report. I too enjoy the games at the Horsehoe, Tunica. However, if you have the patience for some low-limit action, there are folks, who have little or no experience with Holdem, in the other rooms of the Tunica area.
Don- I am sure you are correct about there being better games at low limits elsewhere. But I just don't enjoy playing the white chips game unless I am waiting for a seat in the bigger game.
I need the higher limits or a tournament to really get me fired up about poker and provide a challenge.
I also tend to get frustrated if the room is not managed correctly or if inconsistent decisions get made, etc. Never a problem with those at the 'Shoe. How well are the others rooms run?
I have played with Austin from Sam's town and don't like him as a player, so probably wouldn't like the way he runs his room. Pat from the Gold Strike seems nice, but not sure about the room other than hearing about the really loose Omaha/8 games.
I guess I like 'Shoe so much and have been told it is the only place with the consistent red chip action that I will stay there.
Thanks for your comments and I am glad you enjoyed the trip report.
Have we played together?
Diane
I am no expert on Poker room management. I would only notice something, which was way out of the ordinary. Haven't seen anything like that in Tunica. The dealers at the Grand are efficient and friendly. That's about all it takes to please me. No, I don't think I have played with "Diane B.", because although I live in Chicago, I play mostly in St Charles, Mo. (Station Casino), Tunica and Las Vegas. I just got back from playing at Bellagio (hope I spelled it right). The apprehension some folks feel about playing in Vegas is mostly unfounded, because the people I played with, paid for my trip.
Thanks for the reply.
Hope you are right about Bellagio current situation. I will be there September 23-27 with my hubby and another couple. We have rooms at Bellagio to facilitate playing as much as social schedule will permit.
Previous trips to Bellagio I found that the $15-30 game was tough and hard to beat. I certainly hope to change those results during this trip.
Will post a trip report when I get back.
Hey--Don, how about a trip report from your recent Bellagio experience? I for one, would enjoy it.
Diane
Sorry, no time for a trip report. However, if you have not seen the Mirage poker room, since the opening of Bellagio, prepare yourself for a pitiful sight--a bunch of empty tables. I don't know much about casino operations, but I suspect the room will be closed. The least they could do is remove some of the tables, because all those empty tables, make the joint, look really bad.
Don- Thanks for warning, but I have seen it myself on 3 subsequent trips out West. I was there in January, April, and July this year, so I know what you mean.
It is just a shadow of it's former self. I have heard from several people that they are going to reduce it down to just 18 tables from the present 31. I think that is a good idea and would create more of an atmosphere for playing poker. Now you could shoot a cannon off and not hit someone.
On the plus side, I did think that the games were softer swing and grave yard shift in $10-20 and $20-40 than what I found at $15-30 at Bellagio.......but games were always in jeopardy of breaking down.
Also I think Donna Harris is trying hard to hold players and offer more promotions. But it almost has an air of desperateness about it. She is very visible during evening hours and comps are lots easier to score.
But how many red chip players are there in that town? Binion's struggles with their $10-20 games also each day. So for right now, the only consistent $10-20 and higher action is at Bellagio.
So for this trip with my hubby and friends we are paying the premium to stay at Bellagio and be where the action is. But so far, I do prefer the Mirage.....I just wish it had enough mid-limit action to guarantee a ready supply of players if you trek over there. I hate going somewhere and not being able to get a game together. Especially when I come all the way from the frozen tundra of Green Bay!
I will post a report when I return and let you know what i find.
Diane
Does anyone know if any of the casinos in Colorado (Blackhawk and Central City) have a regular poker tournament. I seem to recall that one of them had a no limit hold'em tourney weekly. Please let me know and also whether it is any good (number of people, fees, payouts, etc.) thanks
Bullwhackers in Black Hawk has a NL tournament every Thur. at 7 p.m. The buy-in is $35 (including the $5 entry fee) and there are two rebuys of $30 each. I think there are up to 70 players and it pays down to 5th place. The rounds are 20 min. and first place usually takes down somewhere between $2200-$2500. It's a popular tournament with no reservations and first choice given to live action players, so you need to be there two to three hours in advance. (They also have smaller tournaments weekday mornings).
Just a curiosity. Since the bets are limited to $5. in Colorado, how do they spread a tournament with a buy-in higher than $5?
If you don't know, could you ask the next time you go there, and see what the Floorman says? You'll probably have to go to the top to get an answer that's anything close to accurate.
The situation reminds me of charity poker in Illinois. $10 cap on charity bets there. They started spreading tournament with higher entry fees. Noticed that no one seemed to care. So, they started offering special tournaments. For a $500. entry fee you got T5000. Played at limits of 200-400 for up to an hour. At the end of the hour, anyone with chips remaining was "in the money". Prize money was based solely upon chip count, with the winners getting $1 for every T10 they had. Thus, this was simply a $20-40 game with a limited buyin and no way to add to your stack during the game. At the end of the hour, everyone had to cash in their prize money, rebuy again, and start the process over. Just a ring game with extra hassles.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Bullwhackers Tourney has a rule that you can't go "all in" on the first hand since bets were capped at $5 and there are 4 betting rounds. I do not know any more details as this was casually explained by the dealer. But after the first hand (or 2) it plays normally.
BTW, the cardroom there is very nice, very large, and far away from slots and other games.
I'm sure you've all noticed that the forum has changed over the last several days. I believe that even the longest of the archives loads with satisfactory speed at this point.
I've also improved the digest form of the archives. The digests are designed to be downloaded to your own machine and browsed locally. Because of space considerations, I cannot keep both the message board version of the forum and the digests available. So I have elected to make ZIP files of the digests. When you click on a digest link (accessible via the "Archives" link on the left). A ZIP file will be downloaded to your machine. You will need a utility such as Winzip to expand the digest.
For an example of what the digest looks like, you can look at this link.
Comments are welcome.
Chuck
Chuck,
I had no problem downloading the zipped files for two months (each took under a minute). I copied and unzipped the files to a special folder. For each month I got three files. For example for June 1998 I got Jun98_msg.html, Jun88_main.html, and Jun98_idx.html. All are HTML documents viewable by your browser.
Anyway, the _msg and _idx files worked great, but the main files got the infamous "Page Cannot Be Displayed" message from the browser. This was true for both months I downloaded. Did I do something wrong and what does the _main file contain?
Regards,
Rick
Yes, you are right. I have fixed the problem. Try downloading an archive again.
Chuck
Any idea of where I can get ahold of WSOP or TOC on video? Also any news of ESPN airing this years or other poker play?
go to conjelco.com or call the horseshoe directly. They both sell the videos (WSOP). I would just call the horseshoe because conjelco will just forward your order to them. They are about $15 bucks each.
robert is probably right on, by the way dealing with espn is like pulling teeth to find out when they will broadcast any WSOP
Thanks for all your help!!
This is a strange "strategy" question, therefore I am putting it under "exchange".
I live 2.5 hours from a casino and dont get to play as often as I like. Other than a recreational home game I host, there is very little local action. However, I have recently been invited to play in a game, that has a "crazy" structure. It is local and I would like to play, but am concerned with the betting rules.
Games played are 7CS, 5CS, 5C Draw, also some "hi-lo" games. betting is "up to $10 per bet, with 3 raises. Basically a 1-10 spread limit game. The catch is that the ante is $5 per person. This is obviously high in comparison to a typical $1 +/- ante for a similar game in casino. Also, for what it's worth, I know one of the players thru business and don't have any reason to be beleive it is not a legit game.
My question: What general rules/guidelines/philosophy's should I utilize in a high ante game. Should I play more hands ? Steal more ? FYI, it will be a 6-hand game. Any help or comments will be appreciated.
I came across some RGP posts on Pat Flemming which said that he is banned lifetime from the Orleans however these osts did'nt say how he cheated.
Pat Fleming is a well-known tournament poker player. He has won several major tournaments and has several final table finishes at various WSOP events. I believe he has even made the final table of the championship. These are facts that can be verified.
He has been banned from the Orleans for life for cheating. That is a fact according to numerous reliable sources.
Now comes the "alleged" part:
Pat Fleming was caught on video tape slipping extra chips into the small buy-in weekly tournament. Apparently there are some weekly tournaments that have more chips than others and a player could give himself a major advantage by slipping a couple of $500 tourney chips from Friday night's tournament into a Satrurday tournament where the chips would give him a large stack. One guy on RGP says he knows a guy who actually saw the tape catching Fleming red-handed. Other "evidence" is also hearsay.
No one that I know of has spoken out on Pat Fleming's behalf to dispute the facts. Nor has he, to my knowledge. Draw your own conclusions. My vote from afar would be guilty as charged. I don't think it is the Orleans' interest to make unprovable claims of cheating and I think a reasonable person could assume that Fleming would offer some defense if he had any.
It may be terribly shocking news for some but I do have a beautifully designed booklet with the cover saying: "Foxwoods Poker Room Rule Book, copyright 1992".
If I remember correctly, at that time, a lot of these books was on display in the poker room for the benefit of anybody.
I've never opened the book as I fully agree with the recent Vince's post: "Since when did you let rules, written or unwritten, bother you?".
Alex
I would like to give you a complete quote from the FX rules relating to the recent string bet discussion:
1.4.4. "String bets" or raises are illegal. A string raise is the act of a player placing less than full raise in the pot and then returning their stake to get enouph cheques or cash to complete the raise without having announced the raise.
A player intending to raise, but not having enouph cheques and/or cash in their hand to cover a full raise, must state that they are raising before going back to their stake, and then immediately complete the raise.
Any player at the table, or the dealer may call string bet or raise, with the final determination being made by the dealer and/or floorperson. If it is determined that it was a string bet, then the action will be considered a call."
Alex
TWIMC,
If you wish to get a rule book plz read below.
There indeed is a rulebook for Foxwoods Poker Room. If you can forward me a mailing address,I would be more than glad to send you one. If not, on your next trip, please ask the Shift Manager to supply you with one. Talk to you soon Kathy Raymond Director of Poker Operations
Paul,
I will be sending you out a copy of the Foxwoods Poker Room Rulebook in tomorrow's mail. If you have any further questions, please let me know.
Kathy Raymond
Paul
I'm satisfied, since now I know at least one player actually has a copy of FW poker rules. I don't recall ever seeing them on display though, yet I've played there since opening week. Despite such a book, rulings on virtually identical incidents can and do vary from floor manager to floor manager. Presumably the *golden rule* is that all floor decisions are final.
I plan to go to Florida at the beginning of October. Are there places there to play poker, especially in Orlando ?
Welcome to Florida! E-me...I might be able to help you.
Is it worth getting a subscription to Card Player Magazine at $60 per year? (I am assuming 12 issues here) Is there a lot of content and is it different than their web site?
Thanks, Mike
I suppose you know the magazine is free just about anywhere you can play here in the US.
There is more then is on the web site and I would say it is worth a subsription if you don't have any other access to the places that have it free. There is much general information and advertisement about goings on in poker but just a few good strategy articles.
If it's your last $60 then don't get it.
D.
by the way, it's published bi-weekly, I believe. I'm torn myself between subscribing and getting the occassional issue in the casinos (when I get there).
Given the website and free issues available, don't know if $60 is worth it (doesn't cost THAT much to ship it!)
I live in WI and don't have access to a regular poker room. I subscribe and have for several years. I pay for the bulk rate which slows it down a bit, but after the first issue it always comes every two weeks like clockwork.
26 issues a year and it is a deal with all the poker information/strategy/tournaments etc you get.
My personal game is a lot stronger as a recreational player because of what I have learned in Cardplayer. I highly recommend it.
Diane from Green Bay
Diane is right (as usual) and Michael B should get the magazine.
I cancelled my subscription after a year to just read the articles on the web page (I'm so smart) but two recent problems have come up. The last issue had a write up about the Tunica Tournament. Where on the web am I gonna read that? Also note the forum discussion thread about the current issue articles by Cooke and Ciffone. Try reading those on the web page.
Abe
Well, I appreciate your feedback, but I think I am still undecided although I like the fact that I get 26 issues instead of 12. Maybe if I win big tonight I will write it off as a poker expense.
Thanks again, Mike
Come on Mike-----take the plunge! Assuming you don't have a closeby cardroom where you can pick it up for free. It will be the best $59 poker investment you can make.
Diane from Green Bay (Contrary to what Abe says, I am not ALWAYS right...but I am on this particular issue!!)
i suscribe to it too. but i get to write it off so it costs me only half price. you ought to at least find something once a year that makes you or saves you 50 bucks
Mike,
If I understand correctly from your posts where you play then there is no need to pay even that little. Go to a bigger cardroom and get it. As eventually you might find yourself there anyway, if you ever decide to move up. Don't be intimidated by the crowd.
I will be vacationing in Vegas at the Mirage October 21st through 25th. I am interested in playing in a 7CS tournament and found that the Mirage has a 7CS tournament every Sunday with a $120 buy in for $500 in chips and a $100 rebuy for $800 in chips. Do I have a shot at the prize money or is it for professionals only? If I decide to play should I rebuy and when? I have never played in a tournament, but am a winning casino play.
Thanks, Mike
Everyone has a shot. I have seen very weak, very novice players win tournaments. However, it should be clear to you that the better you are, the more likely you are to win.
As for the rebuy, I would rebuy EVERY time I play in this event. Rebuy when you go broke, or when the time period for the rebuy is over, which happens last. If you do not wish to rebuy, do NOT enter the tournament to begin with, as you'll be giving up too much.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I've played a few HE tournaments there in the past. You can only rebuy once during the first hour at the Mirage. Also, you can win a free entry into the tournment by playing the ring games when they run their power card promotion. Call the Mirage poker room for details.
Hello,
I would greatly appreciate it if someone would take the time to give me an idea of room rates in Tunica. I'll need a single room during the mid-week. I read below that the Horseshoe has $25 rooms. Is this the poker rate ? If so, what is the regular rate ? Any other, possibly non-casinos that may have inexpensive weekday rates in case I don't qualify for a poker rate ? Thanks.
Steve
Steve- $25 is the poker rate. Don't know what the regular "rack" rate is. Not sure what the minimum number of hours it takes to qualify. (I play 16-18 a day, so it's a non-issue for me)
Diane
The Grand offers a $25.00 poker room rate after 5 hours of play, make sure you put your name on the list, if you are planning to play on the weekend.
i've bought a number of books from two btty two. it seems to be a truism that a smart poker player can do well in a casino. however, i'm a little confused.
if you could be so kind, i'd like your opinion on the following: i have no interest in regular casino gambling, trying to buck a fixed house percentage. however, over the years i've done very well playing non-casino poker.
a while back i bought wilson's 7-card stud software (vers 2). i played around with this a lot & try as i might - after deducting a house rake -- i can't show a profit (i'm using 10% of the pot, with a $4. maximum & a .50 tip) the game is 5-10, with a $1 ante.
i've set it up so i have the strongest player against weak player, but after 500,000 deals, it first shows a profit, but then always shows a net loss for the strong player after the house rake is deducted. - it averages about $2.50 per winning pot
is it me, the software program, or is it simply impossible - over the long run - to beat the house rake no matter how well you play????
i’d really appreciate your knowledgeable opinion.
thanks, john
This shouldn't occur unless there aren't enough players in your hypothetical game. You're not playing heads-up, are you? Unless the range of skill among the Turbo stud profiles isn't significant, experiment with different rake levels, betting levels and profiles and email Wilson if your results still appear anomolous.
What you have shown is that the strongest of the Wilson profiles can not beat a typical casino rake against the weakest Wilson profile(s). There is no correlation to a thinking human player beating a typical casino rake. The truth is that any player who can consistently beat a casino's rake should even more easily beat a table full of the strongest of the Wilson profiles. About 5% of all casino poker players are skilled enough to show a profit after rake for a minimum of 500 hours of play; anyone can get lucky for the short term.
I think the rate of players capable of beating the rake is higher than 5%. After all, beating the rake requires winning less than a small bet an hour in a bigger game and maybe about 3 small bets in a smaller game. Bad players tend to give up much more than the winning players take off the table so it reasons to me that at least 1 in 10 should be long term winners, or in other words, just about every game should have one winning player at it. Of course another factor is that good winning players dont play in unbeatable games for long. They have a good innate sense of what is a beatable game and what is not. Remember that being a winning player doesnt necessarily mean being a pro. Being a pro requires quite a bit more skill and if that is what is considered, then sure under 5% have that. I am pretty certain however that if you took a sample of players in an average card room, closer to 10% would be at least small winners at year end.
Hey All: Duplicate of post I made on RGP:
Played From 6PM to 6AM. (What can I say.)
$3 button charge for 3-6 & 5-10 holdem $5 half hour seat charge for 10-20... similar for 15-30, I think...
Was a lot of fun... 10% of the dealers are good, another 30% were competant, rest have some ways to go. But it was a good attitude all around, and they tried. I was told they pounded through the class from 2am to 6am for just a few weeks.
As far as my results, the very clueless players skinned me alive, cracking my top pair hand after hand... :-) I lost $200 at 3-6 and another $300 at 5-10, winning 4 pots in 7 hours. Then the clueless players went home, and I spent my morning grinding back to even at my favorite table type: a few solid, a few mediocre and just a couple clueless. (For the record, as I know a couple of my tablemates probably read rgp and TwoPlusTwo, I consider myself on the very upper edge of mediocrity. :-))
Lot of fun, 1st time I've played cards at the stone since I got the blackjack boot.
Zooey
P.S. I take it all back. people are boring, no action rocks, definitely not worth the trip for any positive ev players. :-)
There is an interesting explanation on paradise poker's web site about the right way to electronically shuffle cards, given the recent problems found on other sites, has anyone read it?? I find it very interesting for one thing how many different possibilites for shuffles there are and how difficult it is for a computer to do it.
Maybe they could have robots attached to the computer that shuffle the deck mechanically and then read it to the computer?? :-) or toss the deck in the air and then pick up the cards? I don't see the big deal, perhaps someone can explain it??
And is paradise poker doing it right?? or can it be beaten??
Juan Carlos.
There are (or were) three issues with the others...
1) Knowing the shuffle algorithm and compiler used to develop the software it was possible to write software to determine what all the cards are for a given hand.
This problem has been fixed and it is much more difficult for someone to cheat the system.
2) The second issue is that the way the ASF Software (used by Planet poker & Delta) random number generator only allows for something like 4 billion different shuffles. However, there are actually 2^225 different shuffles possible. These means that it is NOT possible for all possible shuffles to occur.
This may also present a problem with a game like 7 card stud. With more cards known, the limited number of shuffles mean the potential for someone to be able to write software to determine who has what cards.
3) Another issue is that the ASF shuffle is actually very simplistic. All the system does is take the deck (ordered like a brand new deck), then take the first card and swap it with another card in the deck which is randomly determined by the random number generator. Then it takes the second card and swaps it with another card in the deck (again randomly determined). And repeats that process with cards 3, 4, 5 thru to the 52. And that's it! I suppose it works but I'm not convinced it's good enough.
The Paradise Poker software claims to deal with all these issues. ASF Software has addressed the first issue, but not said anything (so far as I know) about the other two issues.
Hope that is reasonably clear and helps
rjk
I have a degree in computer science, so I'm somewhat qualified to answer.
Planet Paradise's website says that they shuffle the deck 10 times. This is generally not a good idea. One shuffle with the proper algorithm is sufficient, and shuffling more times could be worse. This is because most random number generators repeat after a while, so all you are doing is making the random number generator repeat more quickly. On the other hand, they probably should shuffle or otherwise run through their random number generator between hands, with the next hand dealt the millisecond that the last action of the previous hand is dealt. This is the method that slot machines use to be less hackable - their random number generator is constantly spewing random numbers until you finally pull the slot handle.
Their website makes a big woop-dee-doo about using a seed with a large number of bits. I'm undecided about this one. The thing is, if you use the state of the previous deck as the initial state of the next deck prior to the shuffle algorithm, then you tremendously boost the number of deck states attainable. This makes the game fair, so their claims about their large number of bits making the game fair makes me nervous, as they may be reinitializing the deck to its initial "new card" order each time, which would be a mistake. On the other hand, the large number of bits should make it unhackable, so that someone cannot figure out where in the random number sequence they are currently and then start predicting future hands with 100% accuracy.
They never state their actual shuffle algorithm, and this is of paramount importance. It's easy to fall into the trap of constructing a biased shuffling algorithm, where a form of shuffle-tracking could be possible no matter how good their random number generator. It would be extremely amusing if they fell into this trap. I've posted an extremely fast and unbiased shuffle algorithm in the past on rec.gambling.blackjack, an incremental version of Knuth's unbiased shuffling algorithm, and Mike Caro recently posted the same algorithm on rec.gambling.poker.
-Abdul
Adbul,
I know just enough to probably ask a dumb question. Here goes anyway. On Planet Poker I believe the hackers were able to figure out the seed since it was based on the number of miliseconds since midnight which they could synch on.
When getting a seed for a RNG, why not base it on something totally unpredictable. For example, let's say I am last to act on a hand in Planet Poker (e.g., showing my hand when acting last and I have a winner). When I hit the mouse to click on SHOW, the internet message packet travels back to their server in Costa Rica using a totally unpredictable path (to my knowledge) plus no one can know how fast I am when I click the mouse. Thus, it will arive at their server at a time that can't be known to an outsider.
Is there any logic to my thinking?
Regards,
Rick
About 6-8 mos ago I signed up to play at PP. Initially playing 3-6, then 5-10 I slowly built up a bankroll to $1200 from only a $100 initial deposit. I then moved to the 10-20 tables. Something very fishy happened that made me cash out and leave PP. While UTG on a particular play with pocked Ks,I raised preflop, had 2 callers, then a raise from a player with a big bankroll. I reraised, and then the big bankroll player capped it. Flop comes xxJ (no flush possilities). I bet, other callers fold, then big bankroll raises. I call thinking he has AA. Turn is a 6. I check, bb bets, I call. River is another 6. I check, bb bets and I call. Big Bankroll turns over j6 offsuit to take pot with fullhouse. Unbelieveable. I cashed out what I had left and never played again.
It is stories like yours which we are trying to prevent. We have spent many hours during our software development phase trying to ensure that no player or players have any advantage over other players, other than their own poker skills. We believe paradisepoker.com accomplishes that.
You may wish to try writing to the support department at the site you were playing on. There is a chance you can get your money back, especially now that their flaw has been so well demonstrated.
We believe it's in the best interest of the entire industry to ensure that shuffling is done correctly. We'd like to be the best of course, but when other sites do it wrong, it reflects badly on the industry, and therefore on us.
First, I see crazy people play hands like this all the time.
Second, if he was going to cheat you why would he pick a hand that was so obvious. For instance, I would wait for an ace-king that I knew would get there and cap it with that. Now you would never suspect a thing and just think that I overplayed a good hand.
MM wrote: "if he was going to cheat you why would he pick a hand that was so obvious."
Because a lot of cheaters are greedy people, and a lot of greedy people don't have enough patience (or sense) to just wait for good opportunities. They go for the money ASAP.
Besides the fact that many crooks are dumb, I believe that the above reason has a lot to do with the fact that so many crooks are caught. They don't have enough patience to only commit low-risk crimes, and go for any crime as soon as it looks doable. Any crook with average brains and good common sense would probably never be caught (and if he was caught, it would be because someone else ratted him out, not because the police caught him directly).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Except that this guy is cheating by having done a hell of a lot of programming work. That would suggest some patience.
That amount of patience was absolutely required. He couldn't cheat at all until he wrote the program. Once he had his tool working, he may not have the patience to wait for "non-obvious" opportunities to cheat. After all, if he does that, he won't win as much without working longer, right?
While there are probably many exceptions, I'd bet that the vast majority of crooks are lazy and lack patience. I say this if for no more reason than if they applied themselves at a legitimate job as much as they need to be good crooks, they could do as well in the real job and not be in danger of getting caught.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I have seen this happen in cash play at 20-40 limit, it happens everywhere.
On machines that are real serious about randomness, they'll sometimes do things like have a circuit connected to the power line that read the random noise level and uses that for a seed.
The whole field of randomness in computers is fascinating, and even very smart and experienced people often get it wrong.
Of course, if they really wanted to reasure the numerate-types out there, they'd dispense with the PRNG altogether and go with a true RNG.
Personally, I like the Lava Lamp(tm) RNG...
I've enjoyed participating in the discussions here of late. If I recall correctly, on September 15 Mason's promise to not censor messages runs out, and thus my computer will turn into a pumpkin at midnight and I will be unable to post. So, goodbye to all, and I'll see you on rec.gambling.poker. Does anybody know of a good website for sports betting discussions? The "Other Games" part of 2+2 had some good sports discussions, whereas rec.gambling.sports is a vast wasteland of idiots.
-Abdul
Abdul,
Thanks for the HTML tips but I only have time to learn each formatting command at the rate of about one per week which should make me a webmaster in Y3K.
Regards,
Rick
P.S. Stick around. All your posts have been no worse than an "R" rating as far as I can tell. I think even Mason wouldn't be offended.
Abdul,
You have more acronyms in your posts than sand on the beach. You can run, but you can't hide, you'll be back. Thanks I really enjoy your posts, at least it makes me think in a different light, concerning a question. If your "R" I don't want to know what I am.
Paul
Seat Open!
Brett
Abdul Should Stay:
Question---What would the acronym be for that? Answer-----"R" rated, but probably not deleted.
I hope you do keep posting here, Abdul. What a show of good will that 2+2 has a link to your PosEV page. Now, how about a "Guest Essay"?
Abe
Here's another vote that you stick around. I've always read everything you've had to say about gambling and gotten good value from it.
If you are looking for another sports discussion, there's a pretty good sports section on the Green Chip sports page over at bj21.com, but I don't know if you're a green chip member.
I'll put in my $.02 too (pretty much all of my bankroll right now.) Don't leave, Abdul, you'll be missed.
I am a little confused here. Surely Abdul does not think that he made any posts during the last month that Mason would have otherwise deleted had it not been for his promise. (not counting the one where Abdul implies that I might be an attorney rather than a gigolo). Thus I must assume that he thinks he could not contain himself indefinitely. But then why did he not put up these terrible posts, whatever they might be, during this period when Mason promised to do nothing about them? I guess it is because of a sense of honor that I myself do not have. Had I been given the carte blanche that Abdul was given I would have had much more fun. In fact I was looking forward to reading some really juicy nasty posts about us this month from many of those rgp people. I guess it just goes to show that things lose their allure when they are not forbidden. Now the only reason for Abdul and others to post here is that they might learn something that might make them a lot of money. Again I guess only I care about crass stuff like that.
Does this mean that we can't cross-post the "animals up my ass" and "bigger balls" threads here?
Brett
Abdul, read my post suggesting a Vegas forum for sports bettors. I personally have read some of the stuff on the green chip pages and find a lot of it junk. The reality I think is that people would rather hype and beat their chests when talking about sports betting. The more I see this, the more I realize that Ray Zee is right, that sports bettors are not a particularly smart bunch compared to poker players. To much of green pages and most other places on the net for sports is just who I like this weekend and kiss my ass if you disagree with me. Just the things we dont need in a real sports discussion. So please stick around and be my ally as I try to gather up some serious bettors who want to talk about their craft in order to improve themselves and their bankrolls.
I agree that a lot of that goes on on the green chip pages, but there are also a lot of serious people there who would engage in a quality discussion if it started. Much like this board. Mind you, I'd rather see the discussion stay here as well.
I wish we could just leave it here, but it always gets buried quickly with some guy telling you who he likes this weekend. To make it worse some other genius decides to chime in with how that team is 63% likely to cover based on how they have done on grass fields the last 7 years. Then another adds that he will only play it after he wins his 5 teamer that is a sure thing...etc. No serious discussion, no real handicapping, just alot of well I will be nice and share my picks with you, which happen to go 70% every year, or at least they do in my dreams. I posted a long message on halftime betting and wrote things I have never seen in print before and got a nice comment from Ray Zee and little else. Some other guy posts two plays on preseason football and gets 16 posts to follow him up. That just is best left to newsgroups where every post is like that. I want people to respond, to think, to add, and even better yet, to tell me they think I am full of ****...but in any case I want some discussion on these topics because it will make me and everyone who participates a better handicapper in the long run.
Your post is good,it will make people who think get better but what I think people also need is how to apply all the theory to work. Let give some example of a game that you like this week and explain why you come up with that team(I think you mention DAVE MALINSKY whom I respect,he picks a game and also a reason behind his picks). There are many THEORY and INFORMATION out there what people need to do is put it all to work,like ROXY said anybody can get INFORMATION what important is how you interpret it. P.S. are you the same WILD BILL who run SILLY SPORTS INC.?
WildBill,
If you live in the NE you don't have the luxury of gambling at a sport's book. You have to deal with the 1/2 hr window to make all your decisions, getting a busy signal, etc. I would loved to have commented on your article, but I DNS (Don't Know Shoot) about the bet because I deal with bookies, sometimes I can bet middle's due to different spreads at the beginning of the game, but even then you have time against you and it makes betting sports frustrating I won't be back to 3pm or whatever. Getting different lines from different bookies, sometimes aggravates them because they know your betting somewhere else if you don't call back. I've been on both sides of this coin and neither one is better than the other when one of your so called good friends doesn't pay you. Maybe someday the NE will wake up and have sports books, where you can spend an afternoon and watch football or whatever. Bill don't think that the article wasn't appreciated, I showed it to my friend and he said wouldn't this be a nice option to have or just to think about while watching the game.
Thanks Again WildBill Keep Writing
Paul
as far as that "animals up my ass" post i don't know whats more disturbing, wanting to shove a live snake up your ass or the 40 someodd people who responded ;)
My god first JFK and now Abdul. How do we baby boomers survive these unmentionable tradgedies. Abdul, to say you will be missed is an understatment. But please do not play us for suckers (or fish, your term). If you were really concerned with your posts being deleted you would force the issue and post one you felt Mason would delete. Then you could return, the hero, to RGP. I for one am not biting.
Bye!
Vince
Hey All,
Now that a poker room opened 30 minutes away, I have decided to start keeping records. My question: I realize the best way would be to keep hourly records, but what about by session? Obviously, weighting mean ev by hours played is trivial, but what about SD?
In other words, given a series of times t_i and results r_i, what is the formula for SD/hr?
Thanks,
Zooey
(currently at 2.000 BB/hr after 15.5 hrs. :-) )
"Mom, are we statistically significant yet?"
See the essay: Computing Your Standard Deviation by Mason Malmuth in the Essays section of this web site.
The easiest thing to do is to set up the formula in that essay in a spread sheet.
Technically you are "estimating" your standard deviation rather then calculating it because the data is in a form with various amounts of time played but you want the SD per hour not per session.
David
during a pot-limit comp, i held pocket 66s in mid position there were six players to act after me my chip count was 6000 & the blinds were 1200.
out of the remaining players there were big stacks & a couple of very open types to act.
i folded the hand hoping for either a better hand or a better position option.
i would like to hear any veiws on this play.
many thanks,
peter spencer
Peter,
This is a first. This type of post belongs on the Theory and Strategy Forum. The Exchange Forum is for misc BS.
Regards,
Rick
I knew there was something wrong with this post, I just couldn't put a finger on it.
I am leaving Fri for LA from Vegas. How much do players typically toke in LA; I understand there is no silver in the pot and I can't imagine toking a dollar every hand; 50 cents is my normal toke.
Most cardrooms in L.A. have $.50 cheques with which you can toke.
I haven't seen ANYbody use a 50 cent chip to tip a dealer, in ANY L.A. casino, since jacks-or-better was the norm.
Which is the lower hand? A,2,3,3,6,7,T. (no flush) or A,2,4,5,7,8,T. (no flush).
A home game I play in plays it one way and a computer program I have plays it the other way.
Which is correct?
Thanks Bill
The A,2,4,5,7,8,T is a 7/5 low which is a winning low versus the A,2,3,3,6,7,T which is a 7/6 low. Whether or not a flush exists is irrelevent in determining the low.
Not so fast, Chin Music. If we are talking about casino poker, flushes and straights don't count, the wheel is the low hand.
However, if you play 6-4 low, or Kansas City lowball (7-2 low), then straights and flushes DO count and block having a low hand with those cards... Bill, best hand is 6-4-3-2-1 or 7-5-4-3-2 (aces always high) for the examples I listed.
Of course, neither means anything in this case... As Greg said, unless you're playing in a game where PAIRS don't count (in which case you're playing a game such as Points), the 5 lowest unmatched cards make the hand.
By the way, Bill- if your computer game plays that pairs don't count (and you didn't set it up that way), throw that game away IMMEDIATELY!
In any casino I know, the second hand is lower. It's 5 lowest (unpaired) cards are 7542A. The first hand's 5 lowest cards are 7632A. The first hand is considered lower because it's a 75 high, which is lower than a 76 high.
If you place the cards in the above order (highest down to lowest), and think of it as a number (75,421 is lower than 76,321), it will be easy.
I see 2 places where someone may be guilty of fuzzy thinking. The 7632A hand has a pair of 3s, and maybe someone is saying the the 5 lowest cards are 6332A. If so, pairs can't be played for low in most casinos (well, they can, but they lose to ANY unpaired hand). The second potential error may result from someone thinking that the 7632A hand is lower because it's best low cards (the 32A) are lower than the 42A of the other hand.
Another strategy is to remember that aces are low, and ask yourself, which of the two hands would win in a contest for hi (ignoring straights and flushes)? That hand (7632A in this case) will lose for low.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Could somebody explain something to me? In any poker game (7CS, Hold 'em, etc.) one of the basic principles of the game is to "invest" in the pots wisely and don't "lose" all your money doing it. I would think the better test of tournament poker skills would be when all start with one fixed & equal amount of money. I am an avid golfer and play in many tournaments (about a 4 handicap). In golf, re-buys are known as "mulligan's". REAL golf tournaments DON'T have mulligans. Corporate, fun, outing, novice type tournaments that use a "scramble" format offer mulligans (replay of shots). This is because it is a "funzy, cutsy, gimmicky, tea-party" that appeals to the "once a year golfer". To me, part of competitive golf is knowing that EVERY shot counts. I would think that competitive people in pokler would treat every chip as important.
I'm sure I am missing something? Could somebody tell me the reasoning behind giving somebody a "2nd chance" buy allowing re-buys.
Jack
Unlike regular sports like Golf where you have major corporations sponsoring them, poker is funded by the players. Rebuys are prize pool builders. The events that don't have rebuys are usually much more expensive.
The goal of a tournament is to either make money from the tournament itself (rare) or to attract players into the cardroom in the hope that they will play before/after the tournament (and maybe be more inclined to come back next time as well).
Rebuy tournaments attract more players. Maybe because player A wants to play, but only for $100., so he can just not rebuy, while player B wants a shot at winning thousands, so he can rebuy and increase his chances.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I've been quiet about this issue for the last few days while discussing the matter privately by email with Abdul. Here are the results of our discussion:
We're trying to provide the best online poker experience possible and we don't want to get bogged down in shuffling discussions, but we recognize that it can be a cause for concern to players, and therefore I'd like to discuss the issue briefly.
Our shuffling algorithm is indeed Knuth's full shuffle (not the incremental version, for reasons you'll see below). We do have it posted on our web site (without exact source code) near the bottom of the http://www.paradisepoker.com/integrity.html page. I'll see about getting that page updated to include a reference to Knuth.
In addition, I'd like to explain why we did not use the algorithm Abdul and Mike Caro have both posted... I think it contains a slight bias. Now I know those can be fighting words, so please let me explain...
The bias is inherent to the random_range() function, which I presume is supplied by the compiler. It gets used in the algorithm like this:
slot := random_range(1,cards_remaining);
Then you deal the card in that slot and put the first undealt card in the deck into that slot.
random_range() is usually implemented something like this (I write in C++, so I've supplied C++ code):
int range = range_high - range_low;
int result = (rand() % range) + range_low;
where rand() returns a random number between 0 and RAND_MAX.
Let's go through the math for the first card to get dealt (i.e. when cards_remaining = 52)...
For the purposes of demonstration, let's take a rather extreme example and assume the underlying random number generator returns numbers between 0 and 63 (i.e. RAND_MAX=63) Most are really 0 to 32767, the one we use at www.paradisepoker.com is 0 to 2 billion+ (2^31-1)).
Now since I think in C, I'm going to do things based from zero rather than from one...
For random_range(0,cards_remaining-1), here are the outputs given all the results from rand(): rand() returns 0 produces random_range() of 0 rand() returns 1 produces random_range() of 1 rand() returns 2 produces random_range() of 2 rand() returns 3 produces random_range() of 3 ... etc ... rand() returns 50 produces random_range() of 50 rand() returns 51 produces random_range() of 51 rand() returns 52 produces random_range() of 0 rand() returns 53 produces random_range() of 1 rand() returns 54 produces random_range() of 2 ... etc ... rand() returns 62 produces random_range() of 10 rand() returns 63 produces random_range() of 11
As you can see, the output numbers from 0 to 11 showed up twice, while those from 12 to 51 only show up once. That's a pretty serious bias to the low 12 numbers. That means that the first 12 cards in the deck would get dealt first more often than the rest of the cards. With a fresh deck, that's very predictable, with the same shuffled deck as you used last time, it's merely the same first 12 cards as last time.
Fortunately most rand() functions have more than 6 bits of result, however even at 15 bits of result (the most common with C compilers), there is a definite bias towards the first 8 cards in the deck.
At Paradise Poker, we chose to use a 31 bit rand() function (coming from a 2016 bit seed that has entropy constantly added to it), thereby decreasing the bias even further (by a factor of 65536), as well as shuffling the deck more than once. We found that shuffling twice removes 99% of the bias, and shuffling 3 times makes it pretty much immeasurable, then we decided to triple it for good measure and bump it up to 10 times to keep the marketing people happy. These two changes result in a shuffled deck with no detectable bias.
We welcome comments on this issue. I think it's best for everyone if we have a good understanding of how to shuffle a deck of cards in a completely unbiased fashion.
Sincerely, Mike
Paradise Poker's random number guy
As an aside to this, one thing surprises me. Wouldn't fair shuffling systems be all worked out for the video poker machines by now, and if so, can't those algorithms be used for dealing poker?
If the flaws we're discussing in the old system used by Delta and Planet Poker are in video poker machines, why hasn't someone figured out a way to use those against the casino?
Can someone enlighten the computer illiterate?
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
For those who said they were interested... we've updated our web site to be more specific about the various algorithms used in our software.
See http://www.paradisepoker.com/rng.html and http://www.paradisepoker.com/shuffling.html for the details.
We also got around to doing the math regarding a seed of only 32-bits (this is why we use a 2016 bit seed):
Adeck of cards can be shuffled 52! differenct ways (approx. 8*10^67, or 2^225). To attempt to shuffle a deck of cards using merely a 32-bit seed like some of the other poker software does, results in at most 4 billion combinations. That's merely 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000005% (or 5*10^-57 %) of the possible ways to shuffle a deck. Clearly inadequate.
paradisepoker,
Aside from unbiased shuffling, I am concerned about collusion, via seperate phone lines between two players at the same table, or signals via "player chat".
Tom D
Casino Rama will open Texas and Omaha tables sometime in Nov once their expansion is complete. I am told that Niagara will follow suit early in the new year. The government casinos were reluctant to give up space from the slots, but new room means Rama wants to get the jump onthe border casinos and that is forcing the others to do the same. Rama is supposed to have 10 - 20 tables depending on space alloted.
Do you know of any plans to have poker in Winsdsor? If you find out, please post the details. Thanks.
My contact works at Casino Niagara. He feels poker will be there Feb or March. Windsor, he speculates, could be anytime - next month or a year, depending on how its management sees it as a a tool to compete with Detroit.
Rama is the only 1 I know for sure, since I received a mailing just today advertising it that backs up what my friend said last week.
The tables as far as I hear, will be roughly 30% 5-10, 50% 10-20 and 20% above.
Well, it's about time!
Will they have limits smaller than 10-20? Have you heard any word on poker at the new Brantford Casino?
Windsor just removed two pits of table games upstairs and replaced them with slot machines. I could be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But this doesn't look like management is going in a poker direction.
I was wondering which book would be better for tournament no limit hold 'em: Tournament Poker by Tom McEvoy or Championship No Limit & Pot Limit Hold 'Em by T.J. Cloutier & Tom McEvoy? I would like to start playing in the weekly hold 'em tournament ($40 buy-in, rebuys??) at the local Casino. If anyone has a different suggestion for a tournament no limit hold 'em book, please let me know. Here's what I'm looking for in a book: I've never played no limit, so it would have to cater to the beginner, (starting hand requirements, playing with a short stack, making a deal IF I reach the final table, dealing with the different types of players (rocks, maniacs, calling stations, etc.)), playing heads up, etc. Thanks in advance for any feedback.
James Flames
Unfortunately, there are, IMO, no good books yet written on tournament poker.
However, the book by Ciaffone and Reuben on NL and PL poker (which has little mention of tournaments) is a very good book. I would use that book, or Super/System by Brunson, to learn the concepts of NL poker. Then, I would apply my normal tournament strategy with those concepts in mind.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Tools needed:
Super/System by Brunson--Excellent book for learning NL
No-Limit Pot-Limit Poker by Ciaffone and Rueben
Gambling Theory and Other Topics by Mason Malmuth
WSOP Adventure--PC game. It will help you practice the concepts that you read in these books. Like bet sizing and stack stragegies.
Will be in town to play Sept. 19 and 20. Where should I play?
there is a room at 611 main street i think.
I wouldn't go to any of the private poker clubs (i.e. 611 Main etc.) right now. The clubs are unlicensed and are being raided quite frequently. Of late, even the players are being charged under the Canadian Criminal Code. You ought to head to the Holiday Inn on Broadway. The game runs from 11 am to 3 am. I might see you there on the evening of the 20th. E-mail me if you want more info.
This is a little bit late, but Bellingham WA is only 30-45 minutes south of Vancouver and there is definitely 10-20 HE. Can't remember the names of any of the places offhand, but I can look into it.
conform
Living out here in the poker wasteland of WI, I always have to travel and plan a trip well in advance to be able to play poker. Travel means buying an airplane ticket, booking rooms, and coordinating/balancing things between work and home. (Probably not all that uncommon for others of you as well)
What I have done the past few years as my poker related travel has increased, is to time my poker trips to major tournaments. I haven't been all that impressed with poker action in Vegas other than the big tournaments, so I usually don't go there at all other times of the year.
(Too many grouches and rocks day in and day out!)
In the past, I have always timed by tournament trips to the opening weekend of the big tournaments such as WSOP, Orleans/Gold Coast Open, and Carnivale of Poker. My logic was that at the opening of the tournaments people still had their full bankrolls, were eager to play, and the first few tournament events were generally cheaper with huge fields for a big overlay to my buyin.
But the early events are always so huge that it now seems to become more of a crapshoot than a true test of poker knowledge and skill. I spoke with a few of the bigger name, regular tournament pro players about this during the last Orleans and subsequent TOC. Some of them like the huge overlay, others feel they would rather sit out of the tourneys that have the huge (500+) fields and wait for the more normal sized (200-300) field events.
I am undecided and looking for opinions. This will help influence me on the timing of my trip in January to Harrah's Carnivale. Obviously I can't come for the entire tournament or it wouldn't be an issue. I can only come for 5-8 days max. so want to pick the most advantageous time for both tournament action and live games.
In July when I came in at the end of the Orleans instead of my usual opening weekend trip, the games were still good on the live side and the tournament events had slimmed down from the monster opening event of 1000+. However, there did seem to be more burnout,negative energy, and bad beat stories prevalent at the end of the long tournament.
Dealers were also worn out and making mistakes that I didn't recall as being much of an issue on previous early tourney trips.
So what do you folks think?
Diane
Since, the Carnival of Poker will be at Harrah's this year, I expect a lot of action across the street at the Mirage. I was surprised at the most recent posts about the Mirage, because I played there during the WSOP and I thought the action was good. When I was there in May, I played several of the tournaments at the Mirage. The pool of players was from 40 to approximately 60 entries per tourney. At that time the entry fees were either $125 or $225. But, I still prefer large fields of players for a good payoff, so I'll stick to the $500 events.
Mark- I also have thought that Mirage will be the greatest beneficiary of the Harrah's Carnivale given it's location. Matter of fact, for the price involved, I play to stay at Mirage this time rather than the host hotel Harrah's.
Hopefully Donna Harris and crew will be ready for the onslaught of poker players in January.
One conflict for me personally though is that the Peppermill in Reno has added some new tournaments to it's schedule including one the end of January. I REALLY like the Peppermill tournaments so I will be torn in making a decision on this one.
Diane
Diane,
I think this event in January will be great! You'll have two major cardrooms within walking distance of Harrah's. Check out Sklansky's response to a tournament question on the poker forum. Good Luck in Vegas!
I think you have it mostly right. In general, the games around the big tournaments are better, and many players leave after they exhaust their bankrolls. So this means that the beginning of the tournament is better than the end of it. You also are correct in concluding that the luck factor is very high in some of these big early events, and as the fields continue to grow so will the luck factor.
One thing that you may not be realizing is that the games improve greatly at the main Vegas cardrooms when there is a big tournament. A lot depends on the limnit that you play, but if you like $20-$40 or higher the games at Bellagio and The Mirage are much better than normal. This is especially true at night after most players have been knocked out. You may be making a mistake if you are staying at the casino that hosts the tournament if you are interested in playing regular side games. Of course, if you want to play something like pot limit, then you will usually have to stay at the host hotel.
From your experience with tournaments, which one of the following would a skilled player have a better chance with a large field of players:
a: limit hold'em b: no limit hold'em c: pot-limit hold'em d: limit omaha 8 or B e: pot-limit omaha 8 or B
The correct answer is D, limit O8.
Jim,
You've got me wondering. What would you say are the advantages for a skilled player in limit O8 tournaments?
Thanks, Mason- We are pretty much on the same wavelength on this.
As I said, I only come to Vegas now during the big tourneys because I have found that the $10-20 and higher games aren't that much fun the rest of the year. It's just always the same group of working pros/local rocks with a sprinkle of tourists who happen to wander in. Games aren't that good day in and day out IMO. I only come to town 3-4 times a year and I still recognize most of the local pros from prior trips.
Each time I come for the tourneys I do stay at the tournament host hotel for the convenience of steady round the clock games at mid-limits. But I then balance my time between there and Bellagio/Mirage for side action. I like the way the poker action swells at those two locations whenever lots of poker players are in town for the tournaments. I play $10-20, 15/30, and 20/40 Holdem and can then find all the games I want.
However, even during the Orleans/TOC I was disappointed by the Mirage action at those limits. Usually the red chip games didn't start until about noon and then by supper there were maybe two games at each limit (10/20 and 20/40) but generally one of each game was borderline short-handed and vulnerable to breaking down. I also don't like Mirage/Donna Harris policy of starting a second table but only keeping it a "must move" table for the first hour. Once it starts, I feel it should stay a must move for as long as game lasts or until a 3rd game starts and that can become the must move table.
Horseshe Tunica handles this issue (and others) very well. Once a second table of any limit opens up, it is designated as a must move table and stays that way. When 3rd or 4th table of the same limit opens up it also is must move. So you have a must move to the must move to the main game. I don't like the aspect of always changing tables, but it does protect the game by keeping tables full and always giving preference to the games that started first in the sequence of the day.
Other rule I would like to see adopted in Vegas (as referenced in a Linda Johnson column) is the Third Man Walking rule. Vegas has the highest concentration of "walkers" from poker games that I have seen. If the table already has two people missing, the next person (3rd man walking)only has one full round to be gone before they get picked up. That gives you time to use the restroom, make a phone call, have a conversation with a buddy, or talk to a floorman.
Diane
folks,
im back from my trip to British Columbia to watch a black bear that was eating salmon out of a creek near Kaslo. then i went to San Juan Island to watch killer whales then some hiking in north cascades national park and home to montana. i stopped in a few little cardrooms but none had games when i was there. i also checked out some casinos and watced the blackjack and slots. most of which were unbeatable for any worthwhile dough but had many bad players giving away their money to casinos that give almost nothing in return to the player.
Welcome Back Ray,
Super Dolphins (Orcinus Orca) Killer Whale. I think your real name is manta ray. Off to Wellfleet to volunteer for strandings of whales, dolphins, sea turtles, sea lions, and whatever else washes up on shore. Played FW last nite and I appreciate it even more after the smoke free environment in the lower levels now I'll have to get players interested in a smoke free midlevel game.
Paul
Paul if you ever see a kemps ridley let me know, i never have and they will be gone soon. its interesting to hear FW has N/S poker maybe something is happening.
Ray,
There's a website below that may be helpful. At the meeting yesterday there was also a Sea Turtle Volunteer program and Dennis spoke briefly from the Wellfleet Bay Wildlife Sanctuary about the strandings in Wellfleet it's a unique area in the sense it has many factors that can influence a stranding. I'm mainly interested in photographing the strandings, and observation rather than the physical part of carrying the ceteceans. I love photography but I'm also a Zoologist/Chemist/Environmentalist. In other words I know a little bit of everything and not much of nothing.
As far as FW is concerned it's only N/S in the 1-5 7CS area. I talked to Kathy Poker Director and she said that all you have to do is start a list for whatever game you want to play and they'll set it up in the N/S area so that's what I intend to do the next time I'm down there with time.
If I do see a Kemps Ridley I'll send you the negatives and you can blow them up or whatever.
http://www.ridleyturtles.org/
Nice talking to you
Paul
Did anyone else notice that Ray disappeared about the same time Abdul showed up, and then came back when Abdul left? Has anyone seen these two together in the same room?
Brett
And notice how Ray is always hanging out in the wilds of Montana or British Columbia where no one can find him. Only the bears know if he really exists.
If Ray is Abdul he is hidding it well or vis a versa!
Vince.
Ray, beautiful country or what?
Speaking of black bears...saw one sitting on the 7th green at a golf course near Vancouver (Furry Creek Golf course) this summer. Needless to say we didn't putt out on that one! ...just as well, it was the about the only 2 putt I had all day.
Did you stop in Vancouver?
there are a lot of busy cardrooms in the PNW these days. not much high stakes action. bellingham has a lot of tables. i think it's tough finding anything past 10-20 though.
I am new to this area and would like to find a home game
thanks
Alert---------
Hubby and I arrive on Thursday afternoon September 23rd for a long weekend. We will be staying at Bellagio until mid morning on Monday September 27th. I have never stayed in a room at the Bellagio, so this will/should be a real treat.
This is in part a celebration of our 25th wedding anniversary, timed to some races at the LV Motor Speedway. Hubby generally does not come to Vegas with me since he is a non-gambling sort. (Well, I guess he DID take a big gamble on me 25 years ago.......made a winning bet and quit ahead!)
Anyhow....I anticipate playing at Bellagio primarily with a side trip over to Mirage to see some friends and say hi to Donna Harris. Will not get to play as much as I usually do since will be socializing with hubby and another couple that are joining us. Karen (half of the other couple) is also one heck of a poker player and will be joining me on this adventure.
Hopefully I will be terrorizing the red chip games and may even venture into the $30-60 arena if I am doing well and feeling adventurous. Any of you who see a big mouthed, over-weight, middle-aged, short haired broad, come on over say Hi and introduce yourself. I may or may not be wearing my GB Packers sweatshirt.
See you soon, Diane
Diane From Pickle Packers,
Someone told me that GB Packers got there name from "Pickle Packers" I thought it was from "Packing Cheeseheads" into crocks. Now I have a small wager on this so could someone plz clear this up so I can collect on this crock.
Metro Pizza To Die For in LV.
Paul
They were originally sponsored by a meat packing company I believe back in the 30's or so. Hence the name Packers.
Not anything to do with pickles that I have ever heard of.
Why don't you access their official webpage and check out for sure. I would guess that your fellow bettor probably won't want to take my word on it.
Diane
The Pack was originally sponsored by the ACME meat packing company back in something like 1919. Thus the ACME Packers.
-Michael
PS. Spare me the commentary on the embarassment on Sunday.
Be the flop... See the flop.. You're not being the flop Danny.
Diane, are you the same Diane taped by Amercian Journey TV at the TOC? Saw the story in Mike Sexton's column. I also venture to these tourneys alone (hubby (a Green Bay cheesehead,doesn't play. Went to the Carnival of Poker last year and plan to go again in January. Lots of fun. Let me know when you are going -- I'd like to say hello! Looking forward to seeing your TV profile program (if it was you)!!
Marcia- Yes, I am the same person who is involved in the Discovery Channel's Documentary for the TOC. Mike Sexton was pretty kind in his column as well. (Lord knows there can't be two of us---world isn't ready for two DIANES!)
I too plan to be at the Carnivale in January, once plans are set can send you an email.
Hope our paths cross sometime in a poker room.
Diane
Go-get-em Diane! Give it your best shot in that Bellagio 30-60. Think there's any good players at that table?
Lets hear the results/highlights next week.
Abe
Hey Abe- THanks for the vote of confidence. But to dip my toes in that water, I better beat up the $15-30 game first.
Either way, I will post a report.
Diane
"Any of you who see a big mouthed, over-weight, middle-aged, short haired broad..." Nothing against you Diane, but that pretty much describes half the female Pack fans I saw at the game on Sunday in Pontiac...I just figure they probably arent as good at HE as you are.
Just wondering what's going on with him...haven't seen him in the tournament winners circle lately, and seeing that he is a specialist at that, seeems odd. I don't know him or anything, just curious.
He got a job at a casino in Southern Cal.
Hello folks , as I write this i feel that mayby there is someone that will read this that could help me Im looking to learn more I am a avid player and reader thow for some reason all the books and study have not helped this poker player become a constant winner!!I live in central Michigan will travel if needed,, price for you to work with me in a teacher student form is open if there is a player that lives with in michigan that feels they could and wants to help ,, please email me ,,,, or better yet leave your email I will get with you!! thanks in advance ,,,Confused
Go to the Favorite Links section of this website. In there you will find a link to Bob Ciaffone's web page. Bob is one of the most respected poker authors out there. He also coaches students, and he lives in Michigan (near Saginaw, IIRC).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I'm trying to plan a trip to atlantic city to play some poker. Where are the best places to stay? and where are the best places to play?
-shack
As a former casino employee and an avid HE player I can assure all of those interested that commercial casinos in Ontario are at least one full year away from seeing even a hint of poker in their marketing plans let alone reserving space for them on their floors.
The Gaming Control of Ontario has paved the way to allow poker rooms to be created but the Provincial Government has alot of work that needs to be done before we will ever set foot in a Poker room in Ontario. The Commission has recently setup a task force to analyze the issue and their results will not be released for 6 months.
Unfortunately, we must continue to visit Charity establishments such as Port Perry until this issue is settled.
In the future, ensure that you have correct information before getting everyone in Ontario excited. Still just rumours, rumours, and even more rumours!!!
"Charity establishmentS"
I thought Port Perry was the only legal place to play Poker in Ontario? The charity thing was mucked up (eh, appropriate wording) by the current idiot (well, party) the fine people of Ontario decided to reelect.
Are there other charity casinos in Ontario now?
There is one is already open (Sault St. Marie I think), I'm not sure if it has poker. Brantford is opening sometime next month. I believe Brantford has plans to spread poker sometime in the first year of operation.
I just got back from a visit to the Detroit area and went over to see Casino Windsor. Now why would that place even bother with poker? Maybe with time and the competition coming up from Detroit they might slow down, but can you ever imagine a casino at 1pm having all its tables open yet ever seat is full. Yes thats right on a Monday, non-holiday afternoon, there were people waiting for seats at all tables, except for the high-roller games. The slots were about half full and the craps tables were wall to wall people. I couldnt believe it! I was put up in the hotel there by some business friends and didnt gamble, but I think that has to be the best franchise around for now. They have people willing to pay almost 5 bucks to cross over from Detroit area and deal with the minor hassle of immigration on both sides just to gamble in a crowded casino with just horrible payouts on the slots and waits for table games, why even waste the space or marketing effort to bring in a gamblers when they cant accomodate them now.
I think this will change in the future with the competition from Detroit. Why do I think this? Well in Illinois the riverboats were charging an admission fee to board. Mininum bets for table games was between $10 to $25 per bet depending on whether it was the weekend or not. They didn't have poker. Now, things are different. The rules for the table games are much more liberal and they have poker. Except for the biggest boat in Elgin, Illinois which has the worst rules for table games. Could you imagine a six-deck blackjack game that puts the cut card 1.5 decks from the end and the Dealer hits a soft 17?
Those rules and the cut are about what Windsor had from what I could tell. Still I dont think an area with 3.5 million people is going to be fully served by a mere 4 total casinos. Also add all the people coming in from Cleveland and northern Ohio and you have an underserved market. The only thing that might help is that I saw the payout percentages on those slots they have and was shocked. I heard that they pay out around 89% on quarter slots...gee all their customers will be broke anyways before long. Not to mention that Windsor isnt an especially big building. Seems that most of their free space except the ballroom area is taken so I doubt a poker room could easily be put in without sacrificing some full casino action elsewhere. To be sure it wont be as crowded in a year or two and lots of good customers will be broke by then, but I still cant see poker being a good proposition when slots and other gaming is allowed. Cardrooms and poker only seem to work well when other forms of gambling arent close at hand or when you are the only one offering poker amongst many other casinos.
And there is much demand I can see. I was at the CNE a month ago, and the haphazard cardroom they threw together for that was so popular that if you weren't there at the opening to get seat, you would be lucky to get one all night.
My contacts are a pit boss at Rama and a shift manager at Niagara (both of whom I've known since dealer school 10 years ago). All I can say is that management there, especially Rama, are operating under the assumption the games will begin soon (2- 6 months). I know they are looking at designs for a room and for furniture. It is not a done deal, but they seem to be operating under that impression with the plans they are making.
The rama poker room is under construction, games should be getting underway in Jan or so
MARGE 99 is now open for sign ups. Go to http://www.conjelco.com/marge.html for online registration and all details. The basics are this. We have a block of rooms at the Biloxi Grand in Mississippi from November 18th -20th. There will be a Omaha 8 tourney on Thursday night. A Stud,Holdem,Omaha mixed tourney Friday afternoon. And a No Limit Holdem tourney Saturday afternoon. As long as we have 4 tables these events will qualify the winner for the TOC 2000. This weekend promises to be non stop poker action. Hopefully MARGE 99 will follow in the footsteps of BARGE,ATLARGE,FARGO and ESCARGOT. If you have any questions feel free to contact my by e-mail or query me on IRC when I am there.
Randy"Mitch on IRC"Collack
You can subscribe to the Marge List by sending e-mail to majordomo@conjelco.com with a body which reads subscribe marge
I travel on business to Florida quite a bit. I have played some of the mini-tournaments at an Indian Casino near Tampa, just for fun (rarely lose, never win too big). Are there any good 10/20 hold em games on the short casino cruises off the coast near Tampa or Cape Canaveral? Can anyone give me any details about the poker games on these cruises? My wife grew sick of my trips to casinos (too much time away from my young family, so this may be all the poker I get for a while.
Plenty...every friday & saturday on the Sun Cruz out of Port Canaveral...also 10/20 available midway between Canaveral & Tampa...E-me for details.
My experience in poker so far has been in home games with friends and in casinos. Where can I find any good poker games in Atlanta? I have heard of an organized game in Covington, but have no idea about how to find out about this game or others.
does anyone know if there are any specifications for entry into the sunday night no limit tourney or any of the other ring games that i have read they host nightly? any replies would be much appreciated thanks
Look below (about halfway down) under th "Mayfair Club" thread. I posted some details about the Diamond Club, which is a members-only club. The Sunday tournament starts at 5:00 pm and there is no requirement other than being a member.
Hi all....
Can anybody explain the rules (wsop) for breaking up tables as players get "busted".(correctly and understandable, me being slow and all :) )
It would really make my day....(searched and searched)
Thank's in advance
Daniel
Can anyone tell me if there any high-limit games in Australia on a regular base? what games,what limits and what rake ? someone just told me they play 50-100 hold-em three times a week in Melbourne
I'm going to Melbourne next month and a few inquiries on rgp didn't reveal any knowledge of big stakes in the casinos, but rumours of bigger private games.
JG
PS, we've played together at CA, and I'm glad you're alive and posting. Hope all is well.
Contact Darryl Lanyon, he lives there and publishes a poker magazine. He posts on the strategy forum.
Brett
There are no high stakes games spread on a regular basis at the crown casino. The highest game they get up on a regular basis is 10-20 Omaha High and that is generally only once or twice a week. If you are going to be in Australia next month Jim the Adelaide Casino is holding a tournament from Nov 5th to 12th which should have some high stakes action.
I don't know about the rest of the country, but in Phoenix it is a popular cardroom promotion to have a "pool" on the last digits of each team's score, give away tickets to each seated player, and then pay a prize (usually $500) to winning ticket holders at the end of each quarter. It is a good casino promotion as it keeps everyone present and playing poker for the entire game. I won one at the end of the game last Sunday! Cha-Ching! First time ever.
This got me to thinking about what are good and bad numbers. (I have an inquiring and wandering mind ...) So last Sunday I compiled statistics on the 227 college football games listed, so my sample space is 554 numbers. If anyone cares, here are the percentages for each ending digit at the end of the game:
0 - 14%
1 - 13%
2 - 8%
3 - 10.5%
4 - 11%
5 - 8%
6 - 7%
7 - 14%
8 - 10.5%
9 - 4%
Several interesting things popped out. If you have either digit as a 9, you can go home and you won't miss anything. Although 1 and 8 are both terrible first quarter tickets, they both come back to be above average by the end of the game (21 is a very common final score.) And 3, which is a great first quarter prospect, is only average by the end of the game.
By combining these statistics with common-sense first quarter values (0,3,7 excellent, 6&4 okay, rest poor), I get an overall value approximation as follows:
Excellent numbers - 0,3,7
Okay numbers - 1,4,6,8
Poor numbers - 2,5
Death number - 9
And sure enough, when I won the pool (end of game prize), I had a 3 and a 7.
End digression. Back to poker. Dick
I love this contest. It keeps the games full and gives you something else to think about at the table. I would have thought that 4 was a better number, but I usually have a 9 anyway.
Brett
That's quite interesting. I believe it has been proved that in any collection of "real" numbers, that is numbers which are measuring quantities of something, the digit 1 is most common, then 2, 3, 4, etc. It would be easy to put together a computer simulation which could output a population of last digits at the end of each quarter if fed the probability of a team making a particular score (3, 7 or whatever). Maybe I'll do it if I find the time, but I have some other projects on the go at the moment.
Andy.
Dick,
I love it!
Vince
TWIMC,
I attempted to find out this info. over the net, but I surrendered to getting smoke free hotel rooms for reply's. for instance Foxwoods has smoke free table area's BJ, Craps, Let It Ride etc. and low limit 1-5 7cs area that is smoke free and will set up any higher limit game upon request. I heard CA is smoke free, but I don't know exactly what cities. My question is where are the smoke free casino/poker rooms around the world?? Since I can't find out myself, I will put it out to the masses. Thanks whether you reply or not.
Paul
all of california except the indian reservations and owner operated rooms with no hired employees. all public places in cal. are smoke free.
B.C. canada will go all smoke free jan. 1 2000 in public places.
at least one major club in new york city.
trop in atlantic city had a no smoke room, small stakes (this may be dated)
Mike Sexton and Tom Mcevoy both are on the forefront to having non smoking tournaments in las vegas. my hats off to them.
any other owners or establishments please reply as you will get many new customers.(myself)
this is not to offend smokers as i have had many good friends who were.
Trop in AC still has the non-smoking room, although it only spreads low limit stud.. no hold'em.
The war against cancer sticks is slowly being won. Only a matter of time until we will not have to put up with it anymore. Kudos to Sexton, McEvoy, Seidel and anyone else on this bandwagon.
The Trop will occassionally put a 2-4 HE game in the non-smoking room, if people sign up at desk. With tables lost in smoking area due to slot expansion (keno room was also killed- big loss), may be harder to do.
Taj Mahal has non-smoking tables (not in walled area of any kind) and some smoking tables have non-smoke seats (seats 1 and 8, lucky dealers!)
Sands has non-smoking casino floor section of table games. Unfortunately, it's on second floor next to large open space from first floor....kinda like a chimney.
What are the casinos afraid of? If all (or even most) of the poker rooms in Vegas were to go non-smoking, revenues would increase.
The regulars (who smoke) would have no place else to go to play and would simply walk out to the main casino to have an occasional smoke (and maybe even play the slots).
When California went non-smoking (except for the indian reservations), the result was that the non-smoking clubs drew customers away from the reservations. I was a regular at Viejas but have only played there once since 1/1/98, when I was given a non-smoking option.
Pechanga went non-smoking and has since had to expand their card room.
Heh. I used to play at Viejas off and on but have not been there once since the smoking ban. From what I hear they've lost their 20-40 game too. While that probably has something to do with management, I suspect it has something to do with the availiability of smoke free alternatives as well.
I have to say I have been shocked recently. I moved back to Vegas after 5 years in CA and dreaded the thought of smoke inside buildings. So far it hasnt been much to notice. I played 10-20 on Saturday night at the Mirage (spotted Mason there too) and didnt have one single player smoking in the game...how is that for shocking! I even noticed that when I went home, my clothes didnt quite have the usual smoking stench to them. Someone said that some CA players mentioned that they have gotten used to not smoking at the table and even when then can in Nevada, they choose not to since it doesnt feel comfortable to them anymore. Now I doubt this is too many smoker's feelings, but maybe there is hope. I personally like what a few players I know do. They stand when the want to smoke and still play. They put the cigarette down and play their cards and when not involved, they stand and smoke, thereby not irritating the non-smokers and also giving the air filtration systems a better chance to work. I think if
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Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 2:25 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 11:34 p.m.
Posted by: Michael (mrmiam@webtv.net)
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 5:00 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 27 August 1999, at 11:28 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 11:19 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 2:33 p.m.
Posted by: kelly (kellyday@netgenie.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 6:07 p.m.
Posted by: debbie (debbie1@netgenie.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 6:11 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 11:59 p.m.
Posted by: Michael (mrmiam@webtv.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 11:44 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 12:32 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 1:47 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 1:49 a.m.
Posted by: Michael Hunter (mphunter@qnx.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 2:31 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 11:05 p.m.
Posted by: Calvin
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 4:33 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 11:08 p.m.
Posted by: Gronk (bongcrosby@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 8:30 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 11:12 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 12:11 p.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 12:22 p.m.
Posted by: crocodile jones
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 1:51 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 11:01 p.m.
Posted by: Grizzly Adams
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 3:40 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Z.
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 5:49 p.m.
Posted by: Zeelous Omaholic
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 11:39 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 31 August 1999, at 8:17 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 12:41 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 4:16 p.m.
Posted by: Regstar (kayg@home.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 1:42 a.m.
Posted by: Quan Phan (quanphan@netzero.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 7:34 a.m.
Posted by: huh? (jaymiz@usa.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 28 August 1999, at 1:21 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: Sue
Posted on: Sunday, 29 August 1999, at 5:57 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 4:27 a.m.
Posted by: Sue
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 12:48 a.m.
Posted by: Brian Meldrum
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 2:47 p.m.
Posted by: yy
Posted on: Monday, 30 August 1999, at 12:37 a.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 31 August 1999, at 8:06 p.m.
Posted by: yy
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 4:31 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 4:56 p.m.
Posted by: chris downs (cdowns@bridge.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 10:47 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Mogal (mogalj@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 30 August 1999, at 9:11 a.m.
Posted by: Easy E
Posted on: Tuesday, 31 August 1999, at 3:42 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (CodeSavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 10:44 a.m.
Posted by: J.P.N (shuview@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 30 August 1999, at 11:58 a.m.
Posted by: Gator
Posted on: Monday, 30 August 1999, at 9:33 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 31 August 1999, at 3:48 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 2:36 a.m.
Posted by: Paladin
Posted on: Monday, 30 August 1999, at 12:50 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 30 August 1999, at 5:52 p.m.
Posted by: Chin Music (nafs@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 31 August 1999, at 11:26 a.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 31 August 1999, at 12:13 p.m.
Posted by: kelly (kellyday@netgenie.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: Moses
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: zooey
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 4:40 p.m.
Posted by: Poker Learner
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 2:04 p.m.
Posted by: Chin Music (nafs@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 2:22 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 11:10 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 3:03 p.m.
Posted by: Chin Music (nafs@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 4:00 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 4:15 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 6:27 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 11:14 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 4:53 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 12:09 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 12:02 a.m.
Posted by: Michael Hunter (mphunter@qnx.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 10:49 p.m.
Posted by: Sean Duffy (sean.duffy@bbs.goldengate.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 6:42 a.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 1 September 1999, at 10:25 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 12:10 a.m.
Posted by: berya (aispi4@arrow.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 9:20 a.m.
Posted by: Frank
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 12:39 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Van Zele (cjvanzel@eprendor.uchicago.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 1:00 p.m.
Posted by: Maxwell
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 10:08 a.m.
Posted by: Maxwell
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 3:45 p.m.
Posted by: Rich Van Ollefen (rich_van_ollefen@mw.3com.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 3:07 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 4:55 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 9:08 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 4:19 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 10:49 a.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 5:18 a.m.
Posted by: carlos (quintero@mit.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 3:23 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 1:15 a.m.
Posted by: carlos (quintero@mit.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 1:22 p.m.
Posted by: chub (chubfitz@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 10:08 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 1:11 a.m.
Posted by: Alex (aab61@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 2 September 1999, at 10:35 p.m.
Posted by: Scott Marks (smarks@rstcorp.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 9:07 a.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 11:55 a.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 3:06 p.m.
Posted by: Scott Marks (smarks@rstcorp.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 4:39 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 5:00 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 6:58 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 5:26 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 10:54 a.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 12:03 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 12:33 p.m.
Posted by: bh
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 12:58 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 7:48 p.m.
Posted by: Chris (cralger@mail.dnvr.uswest.net)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 2:37 p.m.
Posted by: Ron Kilmer
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 3:35 p.m.
Posted by: carlos (quintero@mit.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 5:11 p.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 10:56 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 7:58 a.m.
Posted by: Michael Hunter (mph@acm.org)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 3:53 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 11:52 p.m.
Posted by: carlos (quintero@mit.edu)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 5:33 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 5:46 p.m.
Posted by: Bobby
Posted on: Friday, 3 September 1999, at 5:42 p.m.Dear Ray,
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 9:30 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 2:09 a.m.
Posted by: Tom L (bradentontom@webtv.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 11:05 a.m.
Posted by: Michael Hunter (mph@acm.org)
Posted on: Saturday, 4 September 1999, at 3:41 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 5 September 1999, at 1:06 a.m.
Posted by: Richard G. Poirier (shogeybaby@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 5 September 1999, at 7:21 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Sunday, 5 September 1999, at 9:13 a.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 5 September 1999, at 10:07 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 6:00 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 6:16 a.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 1:42 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 4:35 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 6:03 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 12:14 a.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 11:00 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 11:12 p.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 12:31 p.m.
Posted by: Vince
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 2:36 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 9:18 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 11:40 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 12:33 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 12:59 p.m.
Posted by: Bob Sherwood (RobertSherwood@webtv.net)
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 9:50 a.m.
Posted by: Steve (fiete@my-deja.com)
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 11:26 a.m.
Posted by: Betelgeuse
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 1:50 p.m.
Posted by: suspicious
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 8:59 p.m.
Posted by: Richard G. Poirier (shogeybaby@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 11:27 a.m.
Posted by: notartbell
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 2:20 p.m.
Posted by: L
Posted on: Monday, 6 September 1999, at 6:50 p.m.
Posted by: kelly (kellyday@netgenie.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 2:02 p.m.
Posted by: Richard G. Poirier (shogeybaby@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 5:41 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 1:23 a.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 5:45 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 6:00 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 9:09 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 11:36 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 12:37 a.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 7 September 1999, at 11:41 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 1:22 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 1:13 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 9:57 p.m.
Posted by: Mark the K (msk914@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 5:30 p.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 4:02 a.m.
Posted by: Chris Van Zele (cjvanzel@eprendor.uchicago.edu)
Posted on: Wednesday, 8 September 1999, at 12:56 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 9:16 a.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 6:16 p.m.
Posted by: Frank
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 9:58 a.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 12:59 p.m.
Posted by: Easy E (easy_e0665@my-deja.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 1:19 p.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 3:30 p.m.
Posted by: Frank
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 10:11 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (CodeSavvy@acm.org)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 2:16 p.m.
Posted by: Chris (cralger@mail.dnvr.uswest.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 2:09 p.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 3:51 p.m.
Posted by: Chris (cralger@mail.dnvr.uswest.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 6:34 p.m.
Posted by: Easy E (easy_e0665@my-deja.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 12:16 p.m.
Posted by: carlos (quintero@mit.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 5:59 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 2:36 p.m.
Posted by: WantToLearn
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 6:09 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 9:35 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 11:41 p.m.
Posted by: Darren (Dragon124@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 4:39 a.m.
Posted by: Phat Mack (phay_mack@bigfoot.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 September 1999, at 7:46 p.m.
Posted by: Gas-Mask (suprof@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 5:31 a.m.
Posted by: George (grdropshot@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 5:52 a.m.
Posted by: Whitehackle
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 11:41 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 11:57 a.m.
Posted by: winner
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 11:39 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 7:35 p.m.
Posted by: jaws
Posted on: Saturday, 11 September 1999, at 3:07 p.m.
Posted by: Michael Hunter (mphunter@qnx.com)
Posted on: Friday, 10 September 1999, at 5:29 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 11 September 1999, at 6:09 p.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 12 September 1999, at 12:45 p.m.
Posted by: Don
Posted on: Sunday, 12 September 1999, at 9:08 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 12 September 1999, at 10:07 p.m.
Posted by: Don
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 1:24 a.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 7:19 a.m.
Posted by: Don
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 10:15 a.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 3:20 p.m.
Posted by: Robert (r_sch@msn.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 12 September 1999, at 5:15 p.m.
Posted by: Chris (cralger@mail.dnvr.uswest.net)
Posted on: Monday, 13 September 1999, at 6:27 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Monday, 13 September 1999, at 2:10 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Z.
Posted on: Monday, 13 September 1999, at 3:17 p.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 12 September 1999, at 9:04 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 13 September 1999, at 5:18 a.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Monday, 13 September 1999, at 10:33 a.m.
Posted by: Michael Turley (turley@geotec.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 12 September 1999, at 9:48 p.m.
Posted by: Robert (r_sch@msn.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 12 September 1999, at 10:16 p.m.
Posted by: scott
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 1:37 p.m.
Posted by: Michael Turley (turley@geotec.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 11:23 p.m.
Posted by: Jack L. (NH) (jrlavoie@mediaone.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 12 September 1999, at 10:55 p.m.
Posted by: Joe"predator"Nardo
Posted on: Monday, 13 September 1999, at 2:16 p.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Monday, 13 September 1999, at 2:46 p.m.
Posted by: Alex (aaleef@prodigy.net)
Posted on: Monday, 13 September 1999, at 3:52 p.m.
Posted by: Alex (aaleef@prodigy.net)
Posted on: Monday, 13 September 1999, at 4:12 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 7:23 a.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 8:48 p.m.
Posted by: Kerbernes Kid
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 7:33 a.m.
Posted by: Mr.Lockhart (apoker1@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 1 October 1999, at 5:59 a.m.
Posted by: Michael Bacarella
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 10:23 a.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 12:56 p.m.
Posted by: Easy E (easy_e0665@my-deja.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 2:16 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 6:41 p.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 8:23 p.m.
Posted by: Michael Bacarella
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 10:46 a.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 3:07 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 12:33 a.m.
Posted by: berya
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 5:40 p.m.
Posted by: Michael Bacarella
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 10:29 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 11:23 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 4:46 a.m.
Posted by: Steve
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 10:56 a.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 6:38 p.m.
Posted by: mark (markba27@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 12:00 a.m.
Posted by: john reynolds (jjrbk@interport.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 4:01 p.m.
Posted by: Chris (cralger@mail.dnvr.uswest.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 5:31 p.m.
Posted by: Andrew Wells (ACWells@Juno.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 8:32 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 4:46 a.m.
Posted by: Zooey (zooey2@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 4:47 p.m.
Posted by: Juan Carlos (juanco@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 9:33 p.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Tuesday, 14 September 1999, at 10:40 p.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 12:21 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 2:19 a.m.
Posted by: vader (vader@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 5:22 a.m.
Posted by: ParadisePoker (paradisepoker@paradisepoker.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 2:51 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 9:24 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 12:21 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 4:17 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 4:43 p.m.
Posted by: mark (markba27@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 11:52 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 1:25 a.m.
Posted by: conform (conform@deming.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 6:43 a.m.
Posted by: Abdul Jalib (AbdulJ@PosEV.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 12:32 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 2:02 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 7:49 a.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 9:09 p.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 9:35 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 1:18 a.m.
Posted by: Chris Van Zele (cjvanzel@eprendor.uchicago.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 2:02 p.m.
Posted by: David sklansky
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 7:57 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 9:18 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 3:21 a.m.
Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 2:51 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 10:51 p.m.
Posted by: thai guy
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 1:37 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 9:23 a.m.
Posted by: woodman
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 12:01 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Sunday, 19 September 1999, at 12:48 a.m.
Posted by: zooey (zooey2@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 4:40 p.m.
Posted by: David Steele (dsteele@best.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 12:31 p.m.
Posted by: peter spencer (speno@realmail.com.uk)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 September 1999, at 8:34 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 12:36 a.m.
Posted by: DrToast (DrToast@concentric.net)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 4:04 a.m.
Posted by: Randy (refeld@netzero.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 3:42 a.m.
Posted by: Richard (LVS@sprintmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 October 1999, at 11:14 p.m.
Posted by: Martin
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 October 1999, at 8:14 a.m.
Posted by: Bill (bmcd@televar.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 2:43 p.m.
Posted by: Chin Music (nafs@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 4:34 p.m.
Posted by: Easy E
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 11:01 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 4:39 p.m.
Posted by: Jack L. (NH) (jrlavoie@mediaone.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 7:21 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 2:59 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 10:29 a.m.
Posted by: ParadisePoker (paradisepoker@paradisepoker.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 September 1999, at 7:49 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 10:33 a.m.
Posted by: ParadisePoker (paradisepoker@paradisepoker.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 4:21 p.m.
Posted by: Tom D (tomdv@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 September 1999, at 8:50 a.m.
Posted by: Paladin
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 7:54 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 8:15 a.m.
Posted by: Paladin
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 9:05 p.m.
Posted by: Paladin
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 9:07 p.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 10:34 a.m.
Posted by: Steve Connell (texoldham@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 19 September 1999, at 10:43 a.m.
Posted by: James Flames (jgrove@illuminet.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 10:04 a.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 10:35 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 3:22 a.m.
Posted by: Larry (Larry@dynatecusa.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 12:33 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 9:44 p.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabhan@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 10:47 p.m.
Posted by: conform (conform@deming.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 September 1999, at 9:37 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Friday, 17 September 1999, at 9:34 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 3:11 a.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 11:10 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 19 September 1999, at 2:35 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 4:24 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 19 September 1999, at 2:58 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 19 September 1999, at 1:23 p.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 2:36 a.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 11:03 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 1:43 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 9:31 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 10:02 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 19 September 1999, at 8:13 a.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 7:29 p.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 8:10 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Sunday, 19 September 1999, at 12:36 a.m.
Posted by: skp (spadmanabhan@ladner-downs.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 10:42 p.m.
Posted by: conform (conform@deming.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 September 1999, at 9:35 p.m.
Posted by: skipb (pokerskip@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 10:51 a.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 11:22 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 9:27 p.m.
Posted by: Diane B (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 18 September 1999, at 11:02 p.m.
Posted by: Packerfan1 (packerfn1@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 11:03 a.m.
Posted by: Marcia (trawler@gte.net)
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 7:22 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 9:41 p.m.
Posted by: Abe (abespringfield@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 8:51 p.m.
Posted by: Diane from Green Bay (bierd@wlgroup.com)
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 9:39 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 September 1999, at 1:41 a.m.
Posted by: anon
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 12:07 p.m.
Posted by: Martin
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 October 1999, at 7:55 a.m.
Posted by: confused!!
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 4:32 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 September 1999, at 4:44 p.m.
Posted by: shack
Posted on: Monday, 20 September 1999, at 7:41 p.m.
Posted by: Moses
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 September 1999, at 8:24 a.m.
Posted by: Michael Hunter (mphunter@qnx.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 September 1999, at 9:50 p.m.
Posted by: rjk
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 September 1999, at 9:57 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 September 1999, at 1:26 a.m.
Posted by: mah (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 September 1999, at 1:58 a.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 2:56 a.m.
Posted by: Juan Carlos (juanco2@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 September 1999, at 10:39 a.m.
Posted by: Paladin
Posted on: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 8:26 a.m.
Posted by: amb
Posted on: Friday, 24 September 1999, at 10:15 p.m.
Posted by: Randy (rmitchcoll@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 21 September 1999, at 11:03 p.m.
Posted by: trr
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 September 1999, at 2:16 p.m.
Posted by: Mr.Lockhart (apoker1@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 1 October 1999, at 5:50 a.m.
Posted by: KOunter
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 September 1999, at 2:25 p.m.
Posted by: scott
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 September 1999, at 4:04 p.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 September 1999, at 4:38 p.m.
Posted by: XQSME (annika-daniel@swipnet.se)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 September 1999, at 9:23 p.m.
Posted by: Hennie Meijer (HennieMeij@cs.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 7:55 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 8:04 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 9:48 p.m.
Posted by: Richard Fakhry (fakhry@chariot.net.au)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 4:13 a.m.
Posted by: Dick in Phoenix (RLA48@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 3:47 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 9:46 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward
Posted on: Friday, 24 September 1999, at 11:10 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore
Posted on: Friday, 24 September 1999, at 9:02 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney (Feen9876@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 9:09 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 23 September 1999, at 9:28 p.m.
Posted by: Bill (BEntenman@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 September 1999, at 9:45 a.m.
Posted by: Easy E
Posted on: Friday, 24 September 1999, at 1:38 p.m.
Posted by: short-stack
Posted on: Monday, 27 September 1999, at 4:40 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney (johnfeeney@home.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 September 1999, at 8:54 p.m.
Posted by: Wild Bill (wba712@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 28 September 1999, at 4:29 a.m.