![[Two Plus Two Publishing]](/images/2+2.gif)
Hippies need to cut their hair, take a bath, get better clothes, get jobs, and quit doing so many drugs.
nowadays i agree with the drug part. whats wrong with the rest?
Did you get out this past weekend? I hit the links (swore off hitting the opener a while ago), but I heard from some friends that the Mid fork of the American was fishing well. -2d
never made it out for opening day. maybe this weekend.
Rather than go to some website and have to sift through a bunch of "pundit pontification," is there someplace you can go and just see the final numbers and the winners? I can do without the rhetoric. Thanx
/;/;/;
http://pokersearch.com/Tournaments
Have they closed for good? What happened to the court cases? Sorry if this is old territory, but I have been out of touch for most of the last six months. A pointer to any information would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Jim.
Yes, they are closed for good.
I've heard rumors of a bunch of "home" games that have started in their wake. Contact whomever you know from your old games at the Diamond/Mayfair and ask them how to contact these new hosts.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The Hanley's took a shot at reopening with a different name and at a different location. The Grand Reopening was a rousing success with over 7 full tables.
They were summarily beat about the head and shoulders by the authorities a few weeks later. Poker of this type is dead in NYC, probably forever.
Is anybody out there (in the Chicagoland area) interested in playing 10/20 HOSE. It will be in downtown Chicago. Either Th., S., or Su.. If interested please let me know. I can be reached at ericsolomon@msn.com.
Eric
I'd be interested in the "H" part.
:-)
Eric,
What happened to the Pot Limit game?
Mike
For all of you professional gamblers, is it possible to get a house loan if you put down say 50%? 70%?
Thanks
easy with 50% down. try owner financing first. then try assuming anothers loan. or go to a bank(try a few) and find one that will work with you but bring 3 yrs. taxes and a financial statement. many states have board of housing loans for first time buyers that only need 5% down and little credit. there are lots of options. learn them.
Talk to some brokers.
I've heard that with 30% or more down, they don't even need to pull your credit report. With 50% down, I suspect all that matters is that the house is really worth about what you're paying, since they know they can't get screwed whether you pay or not.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I bought mine with 10% down, but I had to write a lot of letters and bring a lot of documentation. Loan committees might be leery of "professional" gamblers, but if you show them bank statements and tax returns and 1099s, they can be convinced.
JG
not to deliberately plug another site but you may be able to get in touch with roy cooke at planet poker, he should have all the info you need from his real estate agency.
Thanks for the messages. I definately plan on doing further research but wanted to get some ballpark figures of players out in the field. Sounds like with 20 to 30% down I should be OK if I have good supporting documentation. I will ask Mr. Cooke what he knows.
Thanks again, Matthew
Saturday April 28 11:30 AM Harras East Chicago played my 1st hand of Hold'em in over 5 months. Not much has changed - played 10 hands of 10/20, most were 1/2 kills, in 3 hours won 38 bb's home by 4pm.
Feels good to be back.
SPM I'm lookin' for ya.
When are you coming back to England??
Good to see you back
Cheers,
Keith
Bring your best game.
SPM,...dreams do come true...
He had a substantial chip lead and when he was in the hand everyone was a little concerned. He was on a rush and everything he did seemed to work. The day seemed to be his and a winning session was a for gone conclusion.
Then without warning it happened he raised and pounded his hand to the river where his opponent mucked his hand. He then turned over his cards to show his opponent he had nothing. It was the beginning of the end of the rush. This one thoughtless act sent all his opponents to Missouri, the show me state.
They called him down from that point forward until he had no more chips. The morale of the story is simple. Don't give your opponents a reason to move to Missouri.
SPM,...never show a winning bluff...
....if you have the wherewithal to use that hand as the point where you begin to play extremely tight - rock-tight, you can make oodles of money because you'll be called to the river time and time again.
:-0
SPM -
Being from the great show me state myself, I challenge you to SHOW ME when you changed VoP to the Valley of Pride! It'll get you everytime! I'll be back in June!
Has anyone read "Poker: Bets, Bluff, and Bad Beats" by Anthony Alvarez?
I really enjoyed "Biggest Game in Town" so I thought I'd pick this up, but I'd liek to hear anyone's opinions first.
Thanks,
Paul Talbot
I skimmed thru it. It looked like it had a lot of stuff rehashed from "Biggest Game". It also had AA's article on the 1994 WSOP that appeared in New Yorker.
Lotsa nice pictures; apparently a lot of them came from Ulvis Albert's book "Poker Face". Check out the one of Sklansky!
i've been away from the NYC for a while. are these two places still operational?
Disregard - didn't see below
Streamflows in some parts of western Montana could be 1/3 of average this summer. A double dose of drought could devastate wild fish populations.
I understand they started barging salmon(controversial) 45 days early because of low flows in the Pacific NW.
Whats the situation in California?
Shaping up to be a long summer.
no hope for the salmon as the govt. is putting power ahead of fish and with the declining stocks it looks like the deathnel for those in trouble. rainy april in montana so some relief for the western rivers, but they will still be low and warm in august and september. hey i played some with jason from the stockmens last week. he is a good player, i told him to say hi to you.
I don't believe I've met Jason. I have heard that he is the best dealer in town. Glad I don't have to play against him, hard enough to hold my own.
Do you pack bear spray in Glacier?
since its not legal to take my 44 mag, i often take bear spray along. i think id rather have that than a gun at close range. but the best defence against getting eaten by a bear is to go with someone who runs slower than you:-)
On Saturday, June 9, 2001, all Taj pocker players lets take a two hour brake, between 1;00pm and 3;00pm, and don't play pocker, to protest and get improvements on the fallowing items from the management: Hygiene and quality of food and service in the pocker room snack bar; Hygiene in both bathrooms near the pocker room; vacuuming every day the tables felt; washing all chips periodically; dealers not to use cushions; more respect for the elderly from all personal. Please add any other complain to this short list, spread the word and date and time. They are taking us for granted, and this essential services are being ignored.
nt
bn
I have seen poker rooms take their customers for granted many times. When a better place opened, they lost their business. There's a famous story about the former manager of Caesears Poker Room in Las Vegas telling a couple of players that he would get them a bucket of paint so that they could go to The Mirage a day sooner. After the Mirage opened they lost 95 percent of their poker business and closed the room in three months.
Unfortuately, no casino is in a position to take the Taj's business. There are incredible economies in scale in poker rooms, and no other room in AC seems capable of (or interested in) spreading the big games that are at the Taj. Also, the Taj has the best rail of any room in AC or LV. That will keep the games excellent. The Taj doesn't always take customers for granted. The decision to go nonsmoking was gusty and has clearly paid off. The Trop was forced to follow suit because it was losing too much business.
"Also, the Taj has the best rail of any room in AC or LV."
Location and rail are highly important to poker's success. Those managers who stress their nice quiet poker room are usually looking for a job in the not too distant future.
I remember a bunch of years ago I had a conversation with a poker room manager in Laughlin, NV who stressed to me how nice and quiet his poker room was. I told him that if he really wanted peace and quiet he should move the room 10 miles out into the desert. He didn't last very long either.
Poker games need to be seen and observed by potential players. If not, it becomes much more difficult to attract new customers.
Mason,
I haven't been to Las Vegas since just before the Bellagio was built but in my experience you are 100% correct. The Mirage room, with two rails open to the heart of the casino thrived and had good games. Casual observers could even look at red chip game (mid limit) directly from the rail. Sometimes they would give it a try and the games were pretty good for Las Vegas.
About the same time, the new MGM Grand had a room stuck as far back in the casino as it could be (beyond the sports book). It had a nice rail but you still needed a road map to find the room. Didn't it shut down?
The Las Vegas Hilton's Poker Room in the eighties was stuck near the sports book and you could see only a few tables from the intimidating entrance. Although it was the biggest room in town at the time, it still shut down. Only the local and serious players ever found it and I thought the games were tough (maybe I didn't play as well).
During all those years the Flamingo Hilton had a small room open to about the noisiest and most crowded pathway in the casino. The small 1-4/8/8 game near the rail always looked good. I wonder if it is still open. If it is I bet that game is good.
Regards,
Rick
"The Las Vegas Hilton's Poker Room in the eighties was stuck near the sports book and you could see only a few tables from the intimidating entrance."
This was also a terribly run room that probably would have shut down nno matter where it was located. Most regular players were so unhappy with the way they were treated that we all quit playing there.
Rick,
I only get to LV about once per year, but your comments are right on target.
Mirage (with the open rails) always had some casual watchers. MGM (very plush and nice) was hidden way in the back, then they moved it to a strange location, but it was still hard to find. Not really a rail, but partially open to mostly slot machines. Soon closed. Flamingo room has moved 3 times in 4 years. Used to be by the craps tables, then moved to the far south of the casino, pretty open to the casino---right by the Wheel Of Fortune slots (I can still hear them), then moved a little bit last time I was there. The late night Flamingo 2-4-8-8 game is still a BO-NAN-ZA every time.
Regards? What happened to "Gotta run"?
Abe
I rarely visit AC, but I will comment that many dealers need seat cushions in order to have enough height to reach across the table and to work effectively. If there aren't enough cushions for the players also then management could just buy more.
I fully agree. I have noticed quite a change in the overall personal appearence and quality of service at the Taj. I was down there 2 weeks ago and was mortified of the garbage and debris under table 67. I wish the "The Donald" would invest some of his millions in refubishing the room as well as paying and training his staff to be more customer oriented. Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods, in my opinion has a much better overall environment (including food service at the table). Haven't played at the Trop so I cannot make any assesment of that property.
I think there are problems with the Taj, but not the ones you mention. The biggest problem, in my view, is the lack of sufficient floor personnel to move people into games when the room is busy. The second biggest problem is a reluctance to combine games when folks start to leave at night. The third biggest problem is inadequate beverage service.
The snack bar is sort of gross, but no one is making you eat there. You can use poker room comps in the coffee shop or in a restaurant. If you think the Taj's chips aren't washed regularly, you haven't been to a casino (like the old Players Island riverboat in Lake Charles) where the chips aren't regularly washed. The bathrooms on either end of the poker room seem clean to me, and they are used by every patron in the casino. That said, there have been many news stories about the Trump properties being cash poor and deferring a lot of maintenance.
Yeah!! And while we're at it, let's not play any POKER either!!
before you strike which may end up counterproductive the casino should have the right to see a fair list of needed improvements with a petition from the players. give them a chance to do the right thing as they may really want to.
Is it possible to print two or three short posts from different people onto just "one" sheet of paper? (I have Widows 98)
Thanks
Don,
Place your mouse pointer to the beginning the text you wish to copy. Left click (meaning press the left mouse button) and move the curser to the end of the text you wish to copy. Everything between is highlighted in blue. The highlighted text is now what is called "selected". Release the left mouse button. Place the mouse pointer within the blue highlight. Right click (meaning press the right mouse button). You will see a list of menu choices, one of which is "copy". Move the mouse pointer to copy and left click. You have now placed the selected text into the Windows clip board, a portion of the computer system's memory.
Open the application into which you would like to place the selected text: use MS-Word, WordPad, NotePad, or a non-Microsoft application like WordPerfect. When you get to a blank page, place the mouse pointer where you would like the selected text to start, right click to bring up the menu, move the mouse pinter to "paste" and left click paste. The selected text will appear, as copied from the clip board. You may copy the same material again and again if you wish, as it remains in the clipboard until you use the copy command or the cut command to place something else in the clip board.
Using a full-fledged word processing program like MS-Word or WordPerfect will enable to format your page and your fonts.
To be honest with you, this stuff is all very basic.
Good luck, Jake
PS: Are the Don Martin who creates comic strips for _Mad Magazine_?
/;/;/;/
is it ok to adv home games on 2+2 if so under which forum
Going to vegas in a week for the first time.
Anybody having some thoughts about which casinos that are putting up good mid-limit holdem games when it comes to bad competition and rake ?
Thanks in advance
saw my first bear of the year today. hiked into avalanche lake in glacier nat. park thru the snow to watch the avalanches come down in the late afternoon. saw an otter that kept popping up thru the ice and playing with fish he caught. then a large bear came by and followed the shoreline for a quarter of a mile or so paying no attention to me(why should he). a few harlequin ducks on the river finished off the day. gotta go now as commander codys hot rod lincoln is on the radio.
^
So do you carry a 454 Casull just in case?
CV
too heavy.
Ray,
This is the first time I have read something that you wrote that is bear(able). I am definitely amazed that the bear did not notice you. I thought they loved fish. The way you describe Glacier Nat. Park makes me jealous. Now cut that out!
vince
vince, come up sometime and we can go for a hike. ill even let you go on up ahead so you see the animals first. and you get to carry the bacon in your pack.
"and you get to carry the bacon in your pack. "
That's o.k. I've seen that bear commercial where the guy sprays his buddy with Honey. So don't be surprised if you feel sweet, while we are walking, honey.
vince
I just got dealt 8d 3c in late position in a 2/4 game on Paradise. So of course I limp. The problem is that the flop was not even close to Ad 8s 3s. I had to fold. HEFAP cost me $2. If you can’t trust the cover what can you trust? Or do I actually have to open the book?
I think you also have to have the guns to win.
About ten or 12 years ago I won a pot against Mason Malmuth while I was holding 8,3 suited in the big blind in a multiway (preflop) pot. Interestingly he had a hand not too different from the hand on the book's cover. I don't remember every last detail but his hand was quite close though not identical to the pictured hand. I made the full house. True story.
This was on the table in the corner closest to the restrooms, where they used to have a rail and sometimes green chip games. The game Mason and I were in was 20-40. Later they knocked the rail out and made an entrance. Once I saw David Sklansky vault over this rail instead of taking the long way around. Cool.
its terrible isnt it. im trying to keep 2+2 respectable and we have david pole vaulting over rails and mason not playing the nuts. its all going to hell.
Well nobody's perfect...as long as they still listen to you when the chips are down there may still be some hope.
its all going to hell.
Not yet, Ray Zee's report card still says "plays well with bears."
You should have opened the book.
Then you would have realized that raising, instead of limping, was the correct play.
Actually, the cover is correct. It does not specifically say that you use the gun, but if your opponent beats you, just shoot him.
An amusing post. The cover is really sort of a cruel irony. Presumably the guy with the As-Ks would have raised preflop so the guy with 8d-3c would always have to pay money to take a flop with his hand even if he was in the big blind. But suppose the guy with As-Ks decided to "vary his play" and not raise allowing the big blind holding the 8d-3c to get a free flop? Well, you can see what happens. The gun is for the guy with the As-Ks to use on himself.
Affairs The First Affair
There was a middle-aged couple who had two stunningly beautiful teen-aged daughters. They decided to try one last time for the son they always wanted. After months of trying, the Wife became pregnant and sure enough, nine months later delivered a healthy baby boy. The joyful father rushed to the nursery to see his new son. He took one look and was horrified to see the ugliest child he had ever seen. He went to his wife and said that there was no way that he could be the father of that child. "Look at the two beautiful daughters I fathered." Then he gave her a stern look and asked, "Have you been fooling around on me?" The wife just smiled sweetly and said, "Not this time."
The Second Affair
A mortician was working late one night. It was his job to examine the dead bodies before they were sent off to be buried or cremated. As he examined the body of Mr. Schwartz, who was about to be cremated, he made an amazing discovery: Schwartz had the longest private part he had ever seen! "I'm sorry Mr. Schwartz," said the mortician,"But I can't send you off to be cremated with a tremendously huge private part like this. It has to be saved for posterity." And with that the coroner used his tools to remove the dead man's schlong. The coroner stuffed his prize into a briefcase and took it home. The first person he showed was his wife. "I have something to show you that you won't believe," he said, and opened his briefcase. "Oh my God!" she screamed, "Schwartz is dead.
The Third Affair
A woman was in bed with her lover when she heard her husband opening the front door. "Hurry!" she said, "stand in the corner." She quickly rubbed baby oil all over him and then she dusted him with talcum powder. "Don't move until I tell you to," she whispered."Just pretend you're a statue." "What's this, honey?" the husband inquired as he entered the room. "Oh, it's just a statue," she replied nonchalantly. "The Smiths bought one for their bedroom. I liked it so much, I got one for us too." No more was said about the statue, not even later that night when they went to sleep. Around two in the morning the husband got out of bed, went to the kitchen and returned a while later with a sandwich and a glass of milk. "Here," he said to the 'statue', "eat something. I stood like an idiot at the Smiths' for three days, and nobody offered me as much as a glass of water.
The Fourth Affair
A man walks into a bar one night. He goes up to the bar and asks for a beer. "Certainly, sir, that'll be 1 cent." "ONE CENT!" exclaimed the guy, the barman replied "Yes." So the guy glances over at the menu, and he asks "Could I have a nice juicy T-bone steak, with chips,peas, and a fried egg? "Certainly sir,"replies the bartender, but all that comes to real money." "How much money?" inquires the guy. "4 cents",he replies. "FOUR cents!" exclaims the guy. "Where's the Guy who owns this place?" The barman replies, Upstairs with my wife." The guy says, "What's he doing with your wife?" The bartender replies, "Same as I'm doing to his business."
The Fifth Affair
Jake was dying. His wife, Becky, was maintaining a candlelight vigil by his side. She held his fragile hand, tears running down her face. Her praying roused him from his slumber. He looked up and his pale lips began to move slightly. "My darling Becky," he whispered."Hush, my love," she said. "Rest. Shhh, don't talk." He was insistent. Becky," he said in his tired voice "I .. I have something I must confess to you." "There's nothing to confess," replied the weeping Becky."Everything's all right, go to sleep." "No, no. I must die in peace, Becky. I ... I slept with your Sister, your best friend, her best friend, and your Mother!" "I know" Becky whispered softly. "That's why I poisoned you"
Hello everyone. Long time no talk. For those that don't remember me, well...um...no big loss. For those that do, it's probably been a year since I've posted on this forum. Hi. I've been popping in as a lurker from time to time to check up on things, but my schedule has gotten quite hectic. Anyway, my schedule has changed somewhat. I might be going to Las Vegas! At the end of this week! That's really short notice! I'm using too many exclamation marks! For those that live in Las Vegas, you can stop shrugging your shoulders, asking why this is such a big deal, because it's exciting for me.
So...um...uh, what's there to do in Las Vegas? Seriously. I mean, I know that there's the biggest poker tournament in history going on there right now, but seeing how my wallet doesn't quite fit $10,000 into it, what ELSE is there to do? My game is Hold-'em and my limit has been (normally) 6-12, but I can go a bit higher for this excursion (say 10-20). Can I get some recommendations on places to play, tournaments to go to, side events for the WSOP to compete in? Thanks all in advance.
Dan
I'll be coming in to Vegas on Thursday and I'm staying through Monday.
The Orleans does not let you fill out W2-G forms if you win one of their tournaments.
If the death penalty doesn't deter Timothy McVeigh from ever killing again after the 16th, I'll print out this post on 50 different sheets of paper and eat my words(with some fava beans and a nice chianti).
But his execution could certainly inspire some other nut to undertake another horrible crime against innocents.
"..his execution could certainly inspire some other 'nut' to undertake another horrible crime against innocents."
That's true, but a "Nut" might choose any number of excuses to harm others: (1)getting laid off(then goes to work with every gun he can get his hands on), (2)a failed marriage(then kills his entire family before killing himself), (3) a trail verdict(Rodney King and the L.A. riots), (4) Whatever.....
Public torture!!!!! Tie McVeigh up with a rope around a tree that's got tens and thousands of hungry giant red ants crawling all over it - all this while barbecue sauce is spread all over his body. Or slowly yank his nails out off his fingers then pour lemon juice and vinegar on it. Or slowly dip his body into boiling oil. Or force a metal wire into his left nipple, slowly pushing it into his chest, and out thru his right nipple. A public torture, broadcasted nationwide on the Fox Network, not only will make for good entertainment - it would be a good form of punishment and detterence too.
Better yet, force him to play hand after hand of bad beats---ctush his spirit & drive him crazy!!!
Not for a moment do I think that McVeigh doesn't deserve what he has coming. But if you think for a moment that in and of itself the death penalty will DETER someone of his ilk from doing the same thing somewhere down the road, then, sir, you are sadly mistaken.
Please don't confuse deterrence with punishment.
Personally I don't care whether or not punishment serves as a deterrent for crime. Obviously it doesn't for many individuals, but if you are suggesting that it doesn't for any, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree.
Ted
Ted D.,
You got it all wrong--we simply don't use the death penalty for the right offenses. Now, institute the death penalty for speeding or improper lane changes and perhaps you're on to something.
John
...don't forget jaywalking too.
according to the US supreme court, citizens can now be hauled off to jail for any offense, including 'improper lane changes'.
we're getting there, slowly but surely.
brad
The death penalty is barbaric. Two wrongs don't make a right. Perhaps McVeigh would fit the profile of someone who would almost certainly kill again--I don't know if he does--and if this is the case then his elimination from the world would be more acceptable if it is simply a proactive step to protect others rather than a punishment. The death penalty in cases other than cases such as psychopathic serial killers who would present a great danger to others if allowed to continue to live is simply wrong. The death penalty is not a deterrent to others, and when mistakes are made it is irreversible.
IMO it is disgusting that his execution will be allowed to be televised to the families of the victims. Undoubtedly bootleg copies will later be sold. The glorification of violence and the sick fascination with it, in large part on TV and in the movies, which permeates our society, is one major reason we have such a violent society. Kids are desensitized at an early age by what is available for them to watch. Violence breeds violence, and hatred breeds hatred. Perhaps it was the Buddha who is quoted as saying "Never by hatred is hatred overcome." The death penalty used as a punishment is sick both in principle and practice.
It would be interesting, to me at least, to see what the statistics are regarding the murder rate in Texas over the years.
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/txcrime.htm
If you look at the numbers closely. From 1960-1980 the murder rate climbed steadily from 8.6 to 16.9. From 1981-1998 the murder rate has declined steadily from 16.6 to 6.8. The murder rate in Texas is lower in 1998 than it was in 1960!!! Look at all the other crime statistics in Texas and they all have increased greatly since 1960. I realize that you need to look at more statistics to conclude that the death penalty is a deterrent to murder. However, the stats for Texas to me are convincing. Does the end justify the means?
This is interesting. I have read numerous references over the years to studies that concluded the death penalty is not a deterrent. It is also true that violent crime has dropped across the U.S. as a whole in recent years (if I am not mistaken). Comparing the murder rate with the rate for all crimes is one thing, but how does the murder rate compare against the rate for only other violent crimes? I am going to look at the link now. Regarding this issue, I personally don't think the end justifies the means, anyway.
There is a lot of guess work involved in looking at statistics and tying them with events in order to try to establish a causal link. It is the very heart of the correlation vs. causation question. Some researchers claim to find a correlation between the constitutionalization of abortion and the decrease in violent crime. If we were omniscent, the ultimate framing of the question would be "What would the murder rate have been in the same time period in the same state without the death penalty?"
Jon I.
Of course, you know it's still another jump to demonstrating causality. Even the correlation may be a chimera if one fails to normalize out population demographics et al. Look at the murder rate in the United States and then look at the murder rate in any other industrialized democracy and then report back. (hint: I already know the answer, of course.) Personally, I have no sympathy for McVeigh and would have no problem killing him with my bare hands, but I'm just not happy with my government which I feel already has waaay too much power being in the business of killing people.
JG
I’m actually on the fence regarding the death penalty. For argument sake, let’s assume that the death penalty actually is a deterrent (the statistics for Texas don’t prove that it is a deterrent) and that 3000 less murders are committed every year. However, I think it’s fair to say that the existence of the death penalty means that there will be innocent people executed. So again for argument sake, lets say that 10 innocent people were put to death every year resulting in a net savings of 2990 human lives. Would this savings of life make the death penalty worthwhile?
I think there is more to it than just the net number of lives which may be saved. One thing at the core of the issue is what role do we want our government to play? To extrapolate to absurdity perhaps, if we cut the arms off thieves, castrated all sex offenders, and paralyzed all violent muggers and robbers, we might very well have far less crimes of all sorts. But these things are irreversible, as is the death penalty. It is also almost certain too that corruption would still exist at some levels and having such a powerful weapon in the government would be an invitation for the corrupt or corruptible to exploit this power. It is well-known today that the death penalty is not equally meted out to poeople of different socio-economic backgrounds, although this is probably not due to corruption, but is in large part due to the advantages of money in a courtroom and perhaps to some prejudice as well.
Now most of the above is an extreme extrapolation, but I think it might show why it may not be just the number of lives saved that matters here, although that should carry some weight too.
Einstein once said something to the effect that he had no real moral objection to the elimination people who are bad and useless, but that he had no faith at all in the ability of people to carry this out fairly. I think it is a strong argument.
With all due respect I believe that saving lives is much different than preventing robberies or sexual molestation (castration is being used on a limited basis for sex offenders but I digress). Also I think that the socio-economic background of the people who have their lives saved will be tend to be the same as those that commit the murders.
I think the only viable issue regarding the death penalty is how many lives are saved because of the death penalty. If the death penalty proponents could show that many lives are saved because of it, then I think their case is strong otherwise I don't think it is.
I agreee that it would bolster the case of the death penalty proponents somewhat but I think there is more to it than that. The idea of government sacrificing some innocent people wrongly on the altar of preventing a greater number of deaths is something I find quite disturbing. I think these people should have rights and that this goes beyond mere numbers. To me this is a very important concept. I don't think the governmrent should be able wrongly execute Tom Haley in order to save several other lives. It is also disturbing in the sense that the state already has great power and that the ability to perform such irrevocable and severe punishments such as the death penalty (or castration for sex offenders) only increases the power of government. I also fear that we are gradually moving closer and closer to a totalitarian style of government under the banner of fighting crime. Rights are being eroded and unconstitutional seizures of properties are taking place and now it seems we can be arrested for any misdemeanor at the disretion of the police officer, according to the U.S. Supreme Court. To me this all seems a most undesirable trend, and giving the government God-like powers to execute or castrate its citizens only increases its already too great powers.
If the only thing that matters is net number of lives, then perhaps the government should institute draconian penalties for speeding and for anything else which is shown statistically to cost lives. I don't think people would go along with that, and of course it is not a parallel analogy in many senses but it does show that it is not only the net number of lives which matters. Freedom and a role for government that is a bit less absolute matter too, and the concept that government executes some wrongly is to me a violation of what should be our most basic rights. I would prefer to take very slightly increased chances of facing a murderer someday than have a government that is virtually all-powerful and capable of legally stripping its citizens of life and property even when it is wrong and the person is innocent.
i was taught (obviously im from a very backwards area) that its better that a 100 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man is imprisoned.
ready to report to reeducation camp.
brad
I thought that someone might mention this principle. Again I think that saving lives is much different than preventing robberies. Also our legal system convicts innocent people on a regular basis. I'm not saying it happens frequently but it does happen.
I am against the dead penalty, but if a guy kills my family, I change my opinion and want the guy dead. I am against abortion, but if my daughter gets pregnant by a guy of another race, I change my opinion and want her to get an abortion. That is just the way I am, and not proud about it.
Everyone has one.
This is the second time you have attacked me for no reason simply because you disagree with what I've written. The first time was when you told me I was clearly talking out of my ass regarding a discussion about heads-up play. I retaliated by pointing up a conflict in your statements regarding your saying you never play drawing hands and a soon-to-follow thread where you played a small-suited Ace.
At one point a good while later I was impressed by your wit in a thread where you said it would only give you greater respect for the man (George W. Bush) to find out he plays poker. Since others in the thread were ragging on Bush, I envisioned this remark being made at a poker table with you playing against these guys. It occurred to me that you have quite a talent that stands you well at the table and that this remark gives an example of the Art of Poker. So I mentioned something along these lines and said that although we have had our differences in the past that I would buy you a Guinness if we ever met. Maybe you missed it or maybe you didn't care. So what if we disagree on some things? Why do you feel you must put so many things on such a personal level? I remember I once posted "Rounder Is Cool/ he says what he thinks and wears cool shades." So what's with the personal attacks out of the blue for no reason?
my guess is that some people may think you come off as sort of holier-than-thou.
just my a**hole, err, i mean opinion.
brad
If so it is unintentional.
The thought of murder turns my stomach, but murder by the government in an arbitrary fashion somehow turns it even more at times.
"If so it is unintentional. "
im really not one to talk, since a lot of times i try to be a screwball on purpose :)
"The thought of murder turns my stomach, but murder by the government in an arbitrary fashion somehow turns it even more at times."
believe it or not, thats why people (men at least) are supposed to have guns. when a swat team busts down the wrong door and its your door, youre supposed to take a few f***ers with you.
its a bad sign when youre whole life can be totally destroyed (life in jail, siezure of all property/assets) for a violating a 'zero tolerance' policy in which judges have 'no discretion', juries are a rubber stamp, etc. , while simultaneously telling the american public to turn in their guns for 'the good of the children'.
brad
I don't think Rounder was attacking, just stating that this is an opinionated subject. To each his own. You had to have known that such a strong post by you stating that Capital punishment is "wrong and "barbaric" would open you (or at least your opinion) to attack.
As for myself, it's hard to say. On the one hand, I'd like to think of myself as a Christian who does not believe any man (or government) has the right to take a life, no matter what the crime.
Then again, it wasn't one of my daughters or loved ones in that building. If so, the biggest regret I'd have against capital punishment, is that I wouldn't have the chance to kill the son of a bitch myself.
Yes, you do make some good points.
I still felt (perhaps erroneously) that there was at least a touch of a personal jab at me by Rounder in his post. He did not say that opinions are like a$$#@!*$, he said that I prove that they are.
How very witty.
But then, I guess we should only expect the finest-- and most sophisticated-- brands of humor from someone keen enough to glean 5 BB's an hour from the poker table.
M,
Ironically enough, I presume that McVeigh, himself, would be an ardent proponent of the death penalty. But that's an aside.
I had a student, a very good one, who wrote his first paper about his seven years in prison for murder. Later, he was taking a law class with Mar--although I didn't know it at the time. Walking out with Mary one night, I met the student and said hello. Later, I told Mary about his paper, and she remarked that he was one of the more thoughful students in the class.
A few weeks later, the class engaged in a discussion of the death penalty. One student argued vehemently that the death penalty serves as a deterrent. The student who had killed someone turned to the other student and said, "The death penalty wouldn't have stopped me." Until then, no one knew the student had been in prison.
Not only is the death penalty barbaric, it's not very cost effective either. The various mandatory appeals, along with the time spent on death row, usually cost the State more money than a life sentence.
But it seems to satisfy our need for revenge and our hopes for regaining some sort of imagined paradise which never existed in the first place. I may be wrong, but I don't think we have the expressed right to revenge--whether we need it or not.
John
I think we do not, as a species, have a true "need" for revenge. Some wrongs in life people never achieve revenge for, and they adjust to it. Actually, achieving revenge does not lead to final closure for being wronged or hurt. For wrongs which can never be rectified, of which murder is one, revenge is a semi-satisfying outlet that cannot help the wronged party do what really must be done to achieve as full closure as possible, which is acceptance, and understanding to the extent that understanding is possible, and sometimes forgiveness in whatever degree (however small) is possible. In the absence of forgiveness, which may be understandably impossible for a person depending on the situation, acceptance and some degree of understanding are the only things which can truly help to heal the deepest of emotional wounds.
People say time heals all things and in some ways that is true. What I think really happens, though, is that with the passage of time acceptance slowly grows, and more glimmers of understanding begin to make themselves known. Too, the passage of time gradually lessens the immediate and sharp clarity of the trauma.
Anger is a natural response to many harms but the feeling of hurt always precedes anger. Revenge is yet a further step or two removed from the initial emotional trauma, and unfortunately is more like a band-aid to the wound rather than a deep healing process.
All of this is not to make light of the sufferings of the victims' loved ones in the McVeigh case, whose sufferings and sense of injustice must be immense. Rather, I am just trying to describe my understanding of the healing process and why revenge is not a true solution, and that while we may feel a strong "pull" towards revenge, it is neither a human "need" in the deepest sense of the word, nor is it really desirable because it can provide a false and shallow sense of closure before the real healing and understanding/acceptance process has had a chance to take place.
Mark,
I'm not saying that revenge is endemic to our species, only that given the mood of the country, the call for the reinstitution of the death penalty nationwide indicates that revenge is a motive.
Also, I'm suspicious of the term "closure" (it just irks me, too). Had my children died in Oklahoma City, I would be left with a hole in my heart that would never close, and I don't think I could go a day without thinking of them. Would I reach acceptance? No, I wouldn't. My life would be irrevocably changed for the worse, and perhaps that is all I might be able to accept. Would I want the killer dead? No, I wouldn't. And don't tell me I'd think differently if my children had been killed; I wouldn't, and that I can accept.
John
I am not trying to suggest that complete healing or complete closure or even complete acceptance can ever be reached for the greatest of emotional wounds. I do think that the process can be started for such things and that some progress can be made. I don't mean closure in an absolute complete and final sense for great tragedies so perhaps I am using the term somewhat incorrectly. I do think partial closure and acceptance may well be possible at some point, and I think that revenge is a emotional band-aid which can actually slow or prevent the true healing process. So for whatever extent closure and acceptance/understanding may be possible or not, I think that exacting revenge diminishes true progress in this direction by providing a focal point which does not deal with the true issues. My argument is with those who would say that the victims need revenge in order to achieve closure.
No, I would not tell you that if it happened to your family that you would want the killer to be executed because I would not want that either if it happened to mine.
...perhaps "Revenge vs. The Healing Process" would have been a better title for my post.
Of course some of the deepest wounds can never really heal, but even a little progress in that direction is something.
Mark,
Of course, the corollary to "Time heals all wounds" is "Time wounds all heels." I really do agree with you in essence, but we use slightly different terminology, I think.
John
P.S. What movie starred Peter Lorre as a child-killer?
re: movie: dunno.
re: terminology: I really haven't used the term "closure" much before this even in conversation and was in part responding to the idea that the victims' familes might need revenge to achieve closure. I think of closure as of reaching a point of some sort of resolution, not of reaching a point of being fully healed. Is this mostly in line with standard usage or not? I really don't know.
M,
I'm surprised; the title of the Fritz Lang classic is, get this, M.
John
Your Surprised? How do you think Mark Stultz feel?
Vince
Your Surprised? How do you think Mark Stultz feels?
Vince
Hey John,
Did you read my post where I used "conundrum" and "oxymoronic" in the same sentence? Try that one on for size.
vince
Now oxymoronic--that I like.
That you, Vince, would use conundrum and oxymoronic in the same sentence doesn't surprise me. Was the post about Skanlsky? ;-]
Okay, Vince, try this one on: "A man, a plan, a canal: Panama" is called a what?
John
"Okay, Vince, try this one on: "A man, a plan, a canal: Panama" is called a what?"
Pedro Martinez? O.K O.K. wait a minute, let's see;"a man..., a plan..., hmmm.. give me a break I'm thinkin' here,... a canal...Panama? Hmmm... I need a hint.. Panama red is marijuana.. That's not it. There's a Panama Hat.. no. Noriega was from Panama...Ouch I give up! I feel so stupid.
vince
Vince,
Read it backwards.
"A man, a plan, a canal: Panama"
"Read it backwards."
Kayyy,
Panama: canal a, plan a, man a.
Now I get it. It's a Canadian saying. Right a?
Vince
OK. a man a Plan a canal panamA. That would be a "RadaR"? An anagram? What then is the creature?
Vince,
Right, just like radar and rotor. It's called a palindrome, so I expect to see you work the new word for the day into a post somewhere.
John
Thank you John,
One would think that they would use a word like radar to describe this act of backwardness, but no... "palindrome". What the hell does that spell backwards? --emordnilap-- See what I mean? English it's very perplexing.
vince
"...and understanding to the extent that understanding is possible, and sometimes forgiveness in whatever degree (however small) is possible. In the absence of forgiveness, which may be understandably impossible for a person depending on the situation, a..."
of course the spiritual imperative to forgive means that you are to forgive *yourself* for being weak (impotent, unable to have had an effect on your environment). it has nothing to do with the criminal, who traditionally was punished according to divine law, *which replaced personal revenge / blood feuds*.
brad
Forgiving one's self is important, and forgiving those who cause you harm can be beneficial as well.
I am not sure about much history from biblical times, but as I see it there were a lot of bloodthirsty folks running around back then too. I'm not sure what you mean by divine law, but if Jesus forgave his tormentors, perhaps we can learn more from that than from those who preached and practiced an eye for an eye.
"forgiving those who cause you harm can be beneficial as well"
youll have to have some support for this to persuade others.
brad
ps by 'divine' law, i just meant that the rulers attributed their laws to god to indoctrinate compliance. before laws, any wrong was a personal issue, or a familial one. it was no one elses business.
Anger stored within is harmful to the person carrying the anger both psychologically and physiologically. Anger raises blood pressure and causes a number of other undesirable physiological responses. Long-term anger or bitterness...well, you've seen it too in others...don't you think it is doing something harmful to them?
"I may be wrong, but I don't think we have the expressed right to revenge--whether we need it or not."
Please excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by "expressed" right? Exactly where does an "expressed" right come from? The government? A higher source?
From the beginning of time there has always been a populace of people who believed in an eye for an eye. I'm not sure I believe in this, but who am I (or you) to tell them this is not their right?
I'm not trying to be difficult, but could you look into the eyes of a father who lost his 5 year old daughter at the hands of a killer who kidnapped, raped and brutaly murdered her and tell him he does not have the right to revenge? I couldn't.
I would not tell him he does not have the right to revenge, but there might be some way to ask him if he looks deep within himself does he feel that revenge will really help or change anything, or if maybe he might think that there has been too much suffering from this already (for instance the suffering not only of himself and the wronged parties, but the sufferings of the relatives and loved ones of McVeigh).
M-
You had me thoughtfully reading until...
"too much suffering from this already (for instance the suffering not only of himself and the wronged parties, but the sufferings of the relatives and loved ones of McVeigh)."
A "wronged party" is someone who over pays for a car. These were not "wronged parties". These were children, mothers, fathers, husbands, and wives, who were in the midst of living their lives one moment, only to have their entire world shattered forever in the blink of an eye.
McVeigh's family? What have they got to do with anything other than perhaps having a hand in raising a social misfit? I agree it's punishment enough for them if they are haunted with guilt and what if's for the rest of their lives, wondering if there was anything they could have done as parents and/or family members. It's no doubt doubly worse to lose a son to capital punishment.
But I would think the other "wronged parties" have a little more to worry about. Such as getting through the rest of their life without parents or their children and so forth....
Perhaps "wronged" by itself is not the best choice of words.
The point I was trying to make is that a great deal of suffering over this has already taken place; maybe it is time to stop adding to the suffering associated with this tragedy.
M-
I hope you understand that I'm just being the devil's advocate here. I responded intially due to a bout with insomnia last night.
When you say a great deal of suffering has already taken place, surely you are not referring to any alleged suffering which may have befallen the killer, right? If you are, then it's impossible to maintain a further dialog with you, cuz who gives a rat's a-- about him?!
I assume (hope) you are referring to the potential suffering of the killer's family. If so, I can agree with you. I've already stated, I see how it could be potentially tormenting just being in the life of someone capable of causing such suffering among others. It would also trouble me to wonder if there was anything I could've done that might have prevented the tragedy.
But what about the suffering of the "real" victims? Are you really concerned about alleviating their suffering? If so (and I don't mean to imply this is right), what if they would find genuine comfort in knowing that the person who committed this heinous act was not living anymore? If this would truly comfort the "real" victims via a sense of closure in their ordeal, would you now be for capital punishment?
Again, I'm just being the devil's advocate. I'm not sure it's any fairer for us to be allowed to determine what is just and unjust. We have not undergone such insufferable loss. We are not the victims.
Yes, I was referring primarily to the familes of McVeigh in that sense.
As posted elsewhere, I don't believe revenge can truly provide closure to such tragedies and I do think that revenge, by providing a separate focal point, can actually hinder the healing process. I also think that exacting revenge causes deep and hidden psychological and spiritual damage to the person who exacts revenge. This is not to say I have always been immune from feelings of desiring revenge for something in my life, because that is certainly not the case, but that I think it is useless in addressing the real issues and is actually harmful to both parties.
You said it. I would like to add that in a society with perpetually operating prisons, it is absurd to think one needs the death penalty for reasons of public safety.
The whole enterprise is a shameful and evil part of American society.
Dan Z.
As was pointed out, a deterrent works to persuade a person to take or not take a certain course of action. Few people consider murder to be any form of persuasion. Indeed the murder of McVeigh will eliminate the possibility of any future acts of violence from him.
Whether or not the death penalty functions as a deterrent is a seperate issue altogether. There is a phrase in Japaneese samurai literature, "the sword that gives life", that is used to point out that violence is sometimes necessary to prevent future violence, e.g. self-defense, hostage rescue teams etc. The death penalty does not function in such a way.
A country whose economy can support a prison population has no business with the death penalty. This is not the Old West where there was a compelling reason for executing even horse thieves, especially in certain environments which lacked resources. We should be concerned with reducing, de-escalating violence; as M pointed out the death penalty does not do this. Despite Rounder's well thought out, elegant and witty response to the contrary there is no evidence showing that the death penalty does anything put perpetuate the cycle of violence.
As for Tom Haley's question concerning the crime rates in Texas, please do research this. Texas has many draconian laws and punishments, e.g. v. harsh mandatory minimums, a v. high percentage of its population in the prison system etc. The most vociferous victim's rights group and one of the biggest supporters of the death penalty is Justice for All. Go to their web site. Tell me if you see anything claiming that these harsh punishments has done anything for the crime rate in Texas. This is precisely the argument against the death penalty working as a deterrent.
On a different note there is a report published by Texas Defender (a group that assists in death penalty defense) called a State of Denial (on their web site) that details the arbitrary nature of the death penalty and the many problems in its implementation. Among the most disturbing sections are the ones on the myth of meaningful appelate review and the case studies of some of the most appalling accounts of the carrying out of the death penalty.
Tony, Thanks for the rather learned post. You state "whether or not the death penalty functions as a deterant is a separate issue altogether." Why? If it does, the # of murders has been reduced, thus lives have been saved---why is this not a "sword that gives lives"? You also state "---no evidence showing that the death penalty---", yet in the post shortly before yours, we were given statistics showing a rather good reduction in the murder rate in Texas?? As to your remark that Texas has a high % of its population in prison---as compared to what? Do you have % for Texas, California, Florida, Idaho? One more question---what is the source of "an eye for an eye"?
Best regards, A citizen of that "draconian" state
Hello,
To start with, I do not consider your state draconian, I find some of the criminal code to be on the draconian side. Particularly the death penalty and the mandatory minimums.
When I stated that "Whether or not the death penalty functions as a deterrent is a seperate issue altogether" it was in the context of the murder of McVeigh not being an act of deterrance against McVeigh committing future crimes. I think that saying that killing someone deters that same person from an action in the future is a bit of sophistry. The idea of detering is that a person still has that option available to them but that they have been persuaded to be less likely to take that option on the future. That is why I titled the post "Word Games".
According to the Department of Justice's Bureau of Statistics who released a report in May of 2000 on prison population, Texas ranks third in the nation in the number of people in prison per 100,000 people. First on the list is the District of Columbia (which for the sake of argument lets consider a state) with 1,274, then Louisiana with 793 and Texas has 779. The national average is 481, which is exactly what California has. Unless you are comparing Texas specifically to the District of Columbia or to Louisiana I think it is fair to say that Texas has a high percentage of its popoulation in prison. Especially so since America as a nation has a high percentage of its population in prison.
Let me be clear, I do not work in the legal field, I am not a criminologist. On these matters I rely on the opinions of experts. It seems from what I have read that there is a wide consensus among criminologists that the death penalty has no value as a deterrent. Granted I take an abolitionist standpoint so there is certainly bias here on my part. I do not know enough about statistics to evaluate the studies. The few studies that have taken the position that the death penalty does have a deterrent effect have been criticized as flawed, (The Mythology of Crime and Criminal Justice). Furthermore there are many studies from a variety of countries that make the claim that the death penalty has no greater deterrent effect than imprisonment. One support for my claim that the death penalty does not have a deterrent effect is the statement of the American Society of Criminologists in 1987 that social science has shown no consistent evidence of crime deterrence. A study which may be of interest to you is "Capital Punishment and Deterrence: Examining the Effect of Executions on Murder in Texas", Crime and Deliquency 45 (1999). It concludes that the murder rate is unrelated to the number of executions and the number of felonies is likewise unrelated to the number of execution. The New York Times published a study that showed that states without the death penalty have a lower murder rate than states with. Along the same lines, the South has the highest murder rate; 80% of all executions take place in the South. Here is a quote from someone who I imagine has access to all the studies and all the experts, "I have inquired for most of my adult life about studies that might show the death penalty is a deterrent. And I have not seen any research that would substantiate that point.", Janet Reno, 2000. A bit of anecdotal evidence from Camus is that some time ago pickpockets would work their trade at the public executions of other pickpockets.
Tom Haley had not made his post regarding the results of his search on the Texas murder rates at the time I made my first post.
The source for "an eye for an eye"? I'm not sure. I believe it is from the Old Testament. Probably Exodus or Deuteronomy, maybe Leviticus. Why?
If my post came across as overly insulting, well, apologies.
Tony,
A bit of Sophistry? You're being way too polite.
John
No apology needed, I was not insulted... just wanted to jiggle you, and hopefully get another look at your thoughts. It worked--you did good. If this were not such a public place, we might get into a discussion of the ethnic make-up of those states comprising the 80%, and any cause - effect relationship. you have my highest regards, Jim
"If the death penalty doesn't deter Timothy McVeigh from ever killing again "
of course you realize that this may evaluate out to false in all variations, so to speak.
brad
The sad story here, IMO, is seeing people who have lost loved ones putting a lot of faith in the federal government to seek out revenge for them and give them any sense of closure. The press is rife with comments from people saying "I need to see this to feel and end", etc.. These folks are fortunate that McVeigh actually had a part in not postponing this process. What if he exhausted all his appeals? How long would they have to wait for their closure.
I do not think this is the proper role of government. People need to look to themselves and their intimate friends and family to cope with such a tragedy and move on to understand it as best they can. When the government gets involved by promising to kill the perpetrator it inserts itself into a role that it is not suited for, IMO. Alternatively, if McVeigh had a speedy trial and was put in jail without any possibility for parole for life, people would find their closure much more quickly and without having to rely on a federal bureaucracy for assistance in that process.
I can think of many reasons why the death penalty is ethically abhorrent, especially as applied in today's United States, but I think this one causes the most psychological harm--and to the absolute wrong people.
KJS
The concept that revenge should be necessary in order to achieve emotional closure is flawed. The idea that the state should assist by providing revenge is scary and sad, and is also most tragic when irrevocable errors are made.
"The concept that revenge should be necessary in order to achieve emotional closure is flawed"
not so sure about that.
of course, if by revenge you mean a consuming type of revenge, where you yourself are destroyed carrying out the revenge, then you *may* be right.
simply put, revenge *can* be a +EV play.
brad
I 'm afraid I have to disagree with this.
While revenger may make someone feel better on the surface, I think it does harm to the person gaining revenge as well, both psychologically and spiritually.
Executing Tim McVeigh does nothing as a 'deterrent.'
Sure, it stops Timmy from killing more innocent people, but it doesn't deter others from killing.
That being said I have no problem with killing McVeigh as a punishment even if it is useless as a deterrent.
....The preacher rose with a red face. "Someone in this congregation has spread a rumor that I belong to the K.K.K. This is a horrible lie and one which a Christian community cannot tolerate. I am embarrassed and do not intend to accept this. Now I want the party who did this to stand and ask forgiveness from God and this Christian family."
No one moved. The preacher continued: "Do you not have the nerve to face me and admit this is a falsehood. Remember, you will be forgiven and in your heart you will feel glory. Now stand and confess your transgression." Again all was quiet. Slowly a "drop dead" gorgeous blond with a body that would not stop rose from the third pew. Her head was bowed and voice quivered as she spoke: "Reverend there has been a terrible misunderstanding. I never said you were a member of the Klu Klux Klan. I told a couple of friends you were a wizard under the sheets."
The Misunderstood Fairy Tale...
We should begin with the Fairy Tale itself, of course it will be the short version. Once upon a time there was a beautiful Princess, she lived in a castle and was besieged by an evil fire breathing Dragon. The land that her family ruled had no power over the Dragon and they were all beside themselves with fear and depression. The King offered a substantial reward if someone, anyone could save the Princess and the kingdom from the evil Dragon.
Enter the Knight in shining armor, he subdues the evil fire breathing Dragon, frees the besieged Princess and saves the Kingdom. His reward is the hand of the Princess and a high paying job in the Kingdom. The story has a happy ending and of course they all live happily ever after.
The fairy tale is really a lesson for the real world of Texas Hold'em players. The Princess is actually Lady Luck, the Knight in shining armor is you, and the Dragon is your unconscious emotional desire to gamble, with any two cards. The reward is winning the pot of gold in the middle of the table.
So...Once upon a time there was a Lady called Luck, she was beautiful and held the promise of riches for the Poker Knight who could woo her to his side. She travels in the hearts of Poker Knights around the world, and she likes her Poker Knights tight & aggressive. Lady Luck is besieged by the Dragon Rags, he is a chip destroying Dragon who takes his toll on Poker Knights who play from the forbidden Towns of Any2card Town and Border Town. Lady Luck is usually very elusive when a Poker Knight lets the evil Dragon Rags take them to one of the two forbidden Towns. She occasionally, however, lets herself be wooed by a reckless Poker Knight who plays in the forbidden Towns.
Her father the King of Random Cards was distraught over her decisions to bless these reckless Poker Knights. But, she reassured her father that she would never marry one of these reckless Knights. She just liked giving them false hope. It will woo them back to the forbidden towns she told her father. Where they will then reward her real Poker Knights, who were tight & aggressive. False hope brings them back to the poker game, and she counted on the Dragon Rags to lead them astray.
Every day some Poker Knight is blessed by Lady Luck, but it is the Poker Knight who controls his Dragon Rags and plays from the Valley of Patience who lives happily ever after. Winning in the short run is the course of the Dragon Rags, controlling the Dragon brings home the gold in the long run. Do you have your Dragons undercontrol?
SPM,...keeping the Dragon Rags on a short leash...
looters being shot on sight.
brad
p.s. thought it funny how mcveigh is being killed, but rioters and looters lately (years) have just been given free reign.
Just hope you're never mistaken for a looter.
Brad,
How about putting some of the killer cops through the system with the same vengeance. I am not for putting them to death but knowing that a few were rotting in jail might make people feel that justice had been done.
Cincinnati killer cop get two misdemeanors for shooting an unarmed citizen. Give me a break.
How many people have to die at the hands of police before one cop goes to jail?
KJS
Now here is one area where KJS and I might actually share some views. Granted police work can be very stressful and dangerous and nobody is perfect. However, there are IMO simply far too many cases of reported police brutality (and how many other unreported cases?). I think that with power comes responsibility and that abuse of power by those whom we entrust with such power should perhaps carry even higher penalties than for ordinary citizens who might commit the same transgressions.
A police officer who used to play in a home game with me many years ago related a story of how he once dealt with an unruly bar patron who had the gall to swear at him and invoke a curse at his mother while he was attempting to deal with this problematic patron. He said he got the guy's hands cuffed behind his back first and then smashed him in the nose with a blackjack or similar instrument, breaking his nose. Nice. Brave. Just the fellow whom we all should want to be protecting and serving us. Another law enforcement official (a Sherrif) told me of a time he got revenge upon a prisoner who took a swing at him. He too got the guys hands cuffed behind his back and then tripped him so that he tumbled down a flight of hard stairs.
Now of course not all law enforcement personnel are like that. Many of them have quite a hard row to hoe, and the ones who truly do a conscientious job really deserve all manner of praise. It is quite sad, however, that apparently a significant number of those entrusted with such powers choose to abuse their power. I don't necessarily agree with KJS that more severe punishments would be good as a form of "justice being done", because to me that smacks of the revenge mentality which I feel is counterproductive. However, stiffer penalties as a deterrent factor and a reminder of the trust the public is placing in their hands along with their power, stricter standards, greater training, possibly better pay for really good personnel combined with a more rigorous methodology for detecting and dealing with such abuses would all probably be good things.
Before brad suggests that looters be shot on sight (half-jokingly, probably) I suggest that he consider just whom he would be entrusting with the power to make and carry out such judgments.
M,
I am glad that we found some common ground. I think in forums such as these people get labelled much too quickly which prevents people from seeing that many of us share common ideas.
For emphasis, I adopted brad's tone for my post. For the record, I would advocate exactly what your post mentions. I did not mean to imply any type of revenge mentality.
KJS
Thanks, and yes re. above in your post.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely...
There should never be absolute power... who is watching the police? other police? why now I feel better....
not to mention pandemic abuses of authority, like the documentation of LA cops systemically planting evidence, falsifying reports, etc.
its a real bad sign when (perhaps a majority of) people feel the law in general is so screwed up that
a) it makes no sense, and is totally (capricious, whimsical, you know)
and
b) (for example) police have to break the law in order to enforce the spirit of the law (ollie north syndrome).
brad
p.s. but my point was more along the lines of, when has there been *any* excessive force by police *in the defense of citizens*. swat teams routinely bust down the wrong door in the middle of the night and kill (the wrong people) by accident, but when people need to be protected its hands off. just think of that parade in NYC where the police were specifically told *not* to interfere in anything going on, and basically gangs of criminal youths preyed on tourists, etc., with impunity. it was on the howard stern show, and hes very pro police, so im pretty sure its true (how's that for a reference?)
....are you Jackie the Jokeman's agent?
.
brad,
Your postscript strikes close to home.
Over the Mardi Gras weekend here in Seattle the police just stood around while groups of men roamed through the throngs of partiers indiscriminately beating people with fists, brass knuckles, etc.. Even the police chief stood on top of a parking garage watching the melee and ordered his men to do nothing.
One young man died from his injuries. A policeman responded by sending an apology note to his mother, accompanied by a check for the amount of overtime pay he received the night he stood around and watched her son get killed. That guy was the only one in the department who showed any humanity.
KJS
I did not hear of this in the news nut I am not always tuned in to current events. If this portayal is accurate and complete with respect to all important points, it appears shocking and somewhat baffling. Why would the police chief order his men to do nothing?
M,
True story. For more, see this Special Report: Mardi Gras Violence, by the Seattle P-I.
KJS
KJS
yes, i heard about that too.
i think one of the reasons for these 'hands off' police orders (from city hall or whatever) is that they involve ethnic groups (puerto ricans in NY, and blacks in seattle).
by the way, on my other post when i said shoot them all, i obviously meant shoot all the looters (not all the minorities, duh).
add in all this 'hate crime'/'thought crime' BS and i think what you have is law enforcement afraid to do their jobs when it comes to minorities. (re: racial profiling). and i think the police officer in cincinnati who sparked the riots by shooting a suspect is losing his job/ facing jail ( which is great if he deserves it, but lets face it, i think he shot a career criminal, which means the officer was *probably* justified -you know what i mean.)
brad
the guy who got shot in Cincinatti was not a model citizen but he had never been charged with a violent crime. mostly traffic tickets. not exactly a menace to society.
ja, i read where most officer involved shootings in cincinnati were with career criminals.
of course, out of 2 or 3 hundred shootings, theres going to be some wrong ones, and if this officer did something wrong then he sure should be punished.
but if he made a split second error in judgement, then thats another story. its hard to say what should be done about that.
brad
What a wonderful sentiment.
Of course, to get there we'd have to do something about due process, but I imagine in time we could overcome such obstacles.
The thing I like the most about your idea is that we'd finally have a chance to clear the streets of some of those pesky negroes-- who have always stood in the way of real progress-- and that we'd at last reap our vengeance on those whom have most ravaged our country. Leona Helmsley? Cut her some slack. Charles Keating? Let bygones be bygones. But for God's sake, would someone PLEASE EMPTY A CLIP INTO THAT LITTLE BASTARD RUNNING OF WITH THAT T.V.!! Don't ask, JUST SHOOT!
Nice idea-- in fact, you should consider running for office. We elected Dubya, so I guess anything's possible.
well, as far as half joking, i think its pretty standard that looters are shot on sight in national emergency, etc. (i mean like a hurricane totally destroys a city). i could be wrong, but im pretty sure the order to shoot looters on sight has been given before in american cities.
as far as being racist, hey, i say shoot em all.
as a practical matter, if rioters (say in LA riots) ever head towards (toward/towards?) rich areas, i *guarantee* looters will be shot on sight. hell, maybe even suppressing fire.
brad
p.s. of course, dont confuse this train of thought with a similiar (and opposite) view that i share, which is that via the war on drugs the people are being stripped of all rights, the goal being a totalitarian state.
This thread started with a sympathetic note for McVeigh, a murderer of babies, advocated shooting misdemeanants on sight, and then condemned the entire law enforcement profession based upon one incident in Cinncinnati. Its a bunch of mindless rhetoric that belongs on another site.
". Its a bunch of mindless rhetoric that belongs on another site. "
i already mentioned that i cant post to rgp.
brad
Alert Message: From the Mayor of Any2card Town,
This is a public announcement to all Texas Hold'em players in Hollywood Casino County, from the Mayor of Any2card Town (A2CT).
Please standby for an important public warning. The words you are about to read are important to your bank roll, and your personal sanity may be at risk. Please standby for and important public announcement.
Good day fellow hold'em players. As the Mayor of A2CT it is my responsibility to inform you of a serious event, taking place at the Hollywood Casino. Today Monday, May 7, 2001 Hollywood Casino dealers have been dealing powerful starting hands to certain players, who shall remain anonymous. Pre-flop raises however, have not been honored by the resident calling stations. This infraction of the raising rules has become a serious burden to local rocks who shall remain anonymous.
This powerful betting tool, the pre-flop raise, when coupled with a favorable flop, becomes a powerful weapon in the quest for the winning hand. Hollywood Dealers complied with fabulous flops for the pre-flop raiser, adding improvement to the hand on the turn is more than any player could expect. But, the Hollywood Dealers obliged and players took hope to a new level. Counting chickens before they're hatched has always been foolish.
To all players from Hollywood Casino County, the river is cresting watch out for a flash flood on the river card. Yes, the nightmare on Elm is nothing compared to the rush of fear when the river card is a flash flood of destruction. The mighty pre-flop hands are lost in the flood and no one has insurance. It ain't black jack, as you know.
Should you play hold'em in Aurora beware on the river, watch for the flush card, the straight card, the miracle card, the two outer card, the gut card. The river is cresting, flash flood alert. Be on the alert! Flash Flood Warnings! This ain't no joke. Bring a life jacket!
SPM,...drying out...
Hi everyone, I live in Atlanta and there isn't any casino poker close by so I was wondering if anyone here was from Atlanta (or knows people in Atlanta) and knows of any home games? Thanks for the help!
Ben
Sklanksy rarely posts here anymore and I notice Mike Caro has stopped posting at RGP. Have they finally had too much?
Had a blind date, met this woman, 37, who had a nice figure but whose face was rough, to say the least. We got along great, laughed, had a lot in common and had a lot of fun. She wants to go out again but I am having a rough time with that mug of hers. I know its a bit shallow to discount someone based on looks, but that face is tough to overcome. What to do?
You might find your face is a little rough. But, you've lived with it for so long you just can't see the error's. Beauty is only skin deep, after the newness of a relationship all the beauty in the world can't cover up what is inside a person.
Try giving the gal another go, a friend is a great deal more valuable than a good looking face with nothing inside. Sounds like you saw something of value, but your too up tight about looks. Get over it!
SPM,...long ago I realized I was not in the top 2% of good looking men...
Look for a fashion magazine. Clip off a close up picture of Cindy Crawford then put it on her face as you make love to her.
PV, Why should it surprise anyone that of all the beautiful women in the world, your dumbass would choose moley ass Cindy Crawford?
They say men are more driven by physical appearence in partners than women. Perhaps it is why women cheat less than men and are generally more content in relationships. Something we could learn from the fairer sex? Give her a chance would be my advice.
And agreed on Crawford, what's the big deal?
MAP
Go out again. It won't commit you to anything. Remember though, when out with her, treat her as if she were the most beautiful woman on the planet. You might be in for the surprise of your life.
Do her looks really bother you, or are you concerned about what others may think?
I would say continue to see her. It would be a shame if she were the right one for you, and you let her looks keep you from finding out. The more inner beauty she has the less her looks will be an issue.
Good luck and best wishes to the two of you.
Bob,
To quote Shakespeare, "Sell while you can; you are not for all markets."
John
bang first, decide later.
brad
Won day RAy Zee walking neked thru woods when he see a big blak bare. Ray Zee say, hey bare, we both walking neked so what the big deal anysways. Bare say,, aint yhou the guy who eats my barryies?? No, not me say Ray that Mason when he wuz here. I don't like barrieys. ok, say the bare. Hey by the way---the bare say, where you going neked anyways. Fishin say RAy Zee, just like U.
Hey John Tyler, where you bean, man? You come here just once in lawng thyme, very lawng thyme indeeed. I stay here all thyme. Jus wate for you stories to here what RaY ZEe he do. All fishin end pokr thingies end stuffs. But you tayke sew long get here i just wate, wait, wayt... I relly WATE! But i lyke you. Ewe good peple. U tell gude stories, zeE stories like i lyke them. So tyme to tell us - jus hoo are you enyway? Huh???
Since the forum has been on the subject of deterance and violent crime I thought I post a small essay I wrote about Gun control.
Chris
Facts About Firearm Control In The United States
I’ve often wondered what life would be like if the only people in our society allowed to carry firearms were the Military and Police. Would our country be a more peaceful place to live in? Many people believe that firearms are inherently dangerous and that an outright ban on firearms will keep homicide, suicide, and accidental deaths to a minimum. But without knowing all the facts I ended up unqualified to make rational decisions about gun control. In my search to educate myself on this issue I found evidence that was very disturbing since I was once of the opinion that more guns meant more violent crime. I was surprised to find that my beliefs weren’t evidently true. I am now of the belief that more firearms in the hands of law-abiding citizens is better than the alternative of none at all. In this essay I will summarize some historical facts about United States gun control laws, then I will go on to show that more guns do not necessarily mean more crime.
It is interesting to note that the first restrictions in firearm ownership did not originate in America’s more urbanized east, and these laws were not initially used for crime prevention. The first laws restricting firearm ownership were enacted in the former slave states after the civil war. These laws were directly aimed at denying black people and other laboring poor the access to handguns and other firearms. The effect was that these people could be kept in virtual slavery, and they were often terrorized and murdered by the Ku Klux Klan who had the monopoly on firearms.
The second major restriction in firearm ownership came during a time of extreme xenophobia in the United States from 1870 to 1934. During these years the Anglo-Saxon populace (White America), supported by social science at the time, thought the influx of immigrants from South and Eastern Europe were inherently violent and feeble minded. In 1911, New York State introduced the Sullivan Law that made the ownership of handguns illegal to all except the citizens with police permits. “New York City police thereby acquired official authority to implement the disfavor with which they had long looked at possession of handguns by the city’s Italian population” (Kates 15). This law gave police the right to implicitly discriminate handgun possession against any person whom they wished. Other states soon followed New York’s lead in adopting the Sullivan Law. Lobbyists for big business also campaigned for gun controls to keep handguns from people who might try to unionize the employees or rob businesses. In summery, during the this period the American people felt themselves threatened by a number of forces they associated with the handgun: “blacks who wouldn’t keep their place; radicals, labor agitators, assassins, robbers, and, by a process of further association, the foreign born.” (Kates 21) Therefore we should conclude that the first gun restriction laws in the United States were not to keep the population at large safe, but to keep certain classes of people from having equal rights and any way to defend themselves against oppression. Knowing this, as our founding fathers did, we should be critical of the politics behind firearm restriction laws in the United States.
Though knowing the reasons behind historical handgun restrictions are important; most of the recent discussions of gun control involve demonstrating the advantages of lowering the homicide, assault, and robbery rate, by disarming part or all of the civilian population in the United States. Many people argue that policies like England’s gun control has lowered its violent crime rate, while the United States with its unrestricted availability of handguns has some of the highest crime in the Western world. Obviously much of the above statement is at least ambiguous to categorically untrue. First, the United States does not lead the Western nations in violent crime. Mexico has a murder rate several times greater than the United States even though the unlicensed possession of a firearm or a single round of ammunition carries a penalty of up to five years in jail. Furthermore, as I have noted from history, the United States is far from having unrestricted handgun availability. Today U.S. federal law bars the sale and possession of handguns to felons, minors, the mentally unstable, and narcotics addicts, among others. Finally, there have been studies showing that violent crime has increased in England after the firearm bans with more crimes being committed with the very class of weapons that the country’s laws try to control (Greenwood & Magaddino 31-67).
Up till now I’ve argued that banning guns is not effective at lowering violent crime. I also mentioned that historically gun control has been used to oppress certain minority groups. But I’m sure some people will argue that the oppression I have noted could not happen in the civilized country we live in today. Some may even be skeptical that a national banning of firearms would have any negative affect on their lives. I argue that even if these people do not own firearms and never plan on owning them, they still benefit from other citizens legally owning and defending themselves with them.
Why is this so? First we need to understand that criminals like all other humans, tend avoid situations where they may be harmed, and they are more apt to commit crimes that are the easiest to get away with. This means that criminals who perpetrate violent crimes will pick targets that are the most vulnerable, the young, elderly, and otherwise physically weak. If the law states that women cannot carry concealed handguns there will be more acts of rape and violence against them. If no law-abiding citizens are allowed to own firearms to protect their homes there will be more assaults and “hot burglaries” (burglaries where residents are at home).
A recent study by John Lott, a teacher of criminal deterrence and law and economics at the University of Chicago, showed that states allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons reduced violent crime rates and virtually eliminated mass public shootings. His findings also strongly rejected the claims that criminals are more likely to use firearms when their potential victims are armed (114-115). Findings like these show that even though only some citizens were carrying concealed weapons in these states they had positive externalities for the population as a whole.
Thoughout this essay I’ve shown that the only groups who benefit from firearm bans are governments, big business, and criminals themselves. The groups that lose are the poor, minorities, and the public at large with an emphasis on women, children, and the elderly. While arming the populace isn’t a cure for all crime it helps to deter violent crime and reduces the likelihood of oppression.
Works Cited
Kates, Don B., Jr. ed. Restricting Handguns. United States: North River Press, Inc., 1979.
Greenwood, Colin, and Magaddino, Joseph. “Comparative Cross-Cultural Statistics.” Kates 31-67.
Kates, Don B., Jr. “Toward a History of Handgun Prohibition in the United States.” Kates 7-30.
Lott, John R., Jr. More Guns, less crime: understanding crime and gun-control laws. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1998.
too bad we dont have the right to own guns in this country, but hey, we're still allowed to have them (unless we live in california or some other places).
brad
ps englund is a bunch of fascists, theyre doing away with jury trials for "many middle-ranking offences, such as assault, theft and some drug crimes" (BBC). on the other hand, we barely have juries here, anyway.
Some spelling errors exist. A few interesting arguments have potential. I don't feel that they have been properly expanded. The conclusions are far too broad for such a short essay. Revise it. With additional research, this could be a good paper.
This does have interesting potential. Some of the conclusions seem to have been perhaps a bit hastily drawn and the number of references and studies cited is relatively low to be really convincing.
If you compare the U.S. crime rate to other Western nations (not in a purely geographical sense, e.g. Mexico, but in the sense of Western-style nations which are the most highly developed), it would be surprising to me if the U.S. does not lead in violent crime both in actual numbers and in rate per capita. Whether this is true and whether it has much, if anything, to do with accessibility to handguns is a worthy topic for further exploration. I think most people would assume that comparison to other Western nations for purposes of this discussion would implicitly exclude nations which may be considered to be second or third-world countries (if not, then you could even include Columbia, renowned for its violence).
If you compare deaths resulting from fire arms in the U.S. vs. Europe I'm sure the US will compare quite favorably. One only need look at how many people died in WW I, WW II and the time of Stalin's rule. It won't even matter if you compare on an absolute basis or a per capita basis.
OK, but today?
OK, but today?
that's exactly the point M. Europe is supposedly an advanced, civilized western culture. As a civilized society they have strict gun control laws. As a civilized society they don't have the death penalty. As civilized society they have a progressive (socialist) tax structure. Yet, without fail, every 20 to 50 years they have a terribly barbaric human slaughter on a mass scale. I would argue that primary cause of this phenomenon is the concentration of wealth and military power in the hands of the State. Anytime a head of state (Stalin, Hitler, Milosevich) gets a mind to go forth and conquer there is nothing to stop him and he has tremendous resources at his disposal.
There may or may not be a correlation between violent crime and private gun ownership. But is that really the question we should be asking? A better question is: if we don't want so many guns in our society what is the alternative? I think Europe illustrates the alternative very well.
Quite interesting and something that did not occur to me while reading your first post.
When guns are in the hands of law abiding citizens there tends to be less violent crime, but criminals will substitute some other forms of crime for the more violent ones. ie. Less muggings but more auto theft.
Crime may not subside, but less people will be hurt or killed.
CV
In Switzerland all men must own a fully automatic rifle and the Swiss' violent crime rate is practicly non-existent. We must remember that culture plays a large part in violent crime.
In most of our large cities, where the most violent crime happens, is also where the strictist gun laws are.
Not much reaserch has seriously been done on gun laws. My paper tried to point out that historicly restrictive gun laws are political and do help our society. Also the best way to oppress a group of people is to take away their guns.
I believe we should all be able to own fully automatic weapons and handguns just like the Swiss, and owning these weapons is a 2nd amendment right.
CV
cv
Rocks==I’ve often wondered what life would be like if the only people in our society allowed to carry firearms were the Military and Police.
Limpers==Many people believe that firearms are inherently dangerous and that an outright ban on firearms will keep homicide, suicide, and accidental deaths to a minimum.
Tight Aggressive==more firearms in the hands of law-abiding citizens is better than the alternative of none at all.
Maniacs==Thoughout this essay I’ve shown that the only groups who benefit from firearm bans are governments, big business, and criminals themselves.
Railbirds==The groups that lose are the poor, minorities, and the public at large with an emphasis on women, children, and the elderly.
UTG
s
:-)
I got a laugh out of the terminology. Though I don't see why women and the elderly should be railbirds. I believe that women and elderly have the most incentive to carry handguns. The bullet is a great equalizer.
CV
Interesting to me that your essay mentions all categories of gun violence--homicide, suicide and accidental death--in the intro but focuses only on crime in the body. I think you need to address the number of deaths and injuries caused by the presence of guns in the home to make a solid argument against gun control. It is well established that gun owners and their families are at much greater risk for injury and death by a gun than those who do not possess guns. Many people have their own guns used against them during a crime, their children find their guns and play with them, they accidentally shoot a family member mistakenly thinking they are a burglar, etc..
One other thought that has run through both your post and the death penalty thread is the assertion that people who are committing crimes will be deterred by the knowledge that either a) they may face the death penalty if caught or b) they may be shot by a witness or victim during a crime. I think deeper study will reveal that people who have made the decision to perpetrate violence on others are not thinking about the consequences--either during the act or immediately beforehand. John Feeney (if I remember correctly) pointed this out in his post about the murderer in law school. It makes sense to the more rational among us that one would not the house of someone with a gun under their pillow or shoot up a school where all the teachers were packing heat. I have never been convinced that these thoughts are heavily considered by people bent on taking human life themselves. For instance, the Columbine kids obviously had a death wish. Do you peoplethe presence of a couple armed teachers would have deterred them? Seems doubtful to me. Would stricter laws restricting the purchase and ownership of guns prevented them from having an adult friend buy and give them weapons thus hampering their ability to committ such a tragic crime? Seems very probable.
KJS
I didn't have the space to write all of this in the essay, but since you asked.
First, mass killings tend to dissappear when law abiding people start carrying concealed weapons. It has been documented in Lott's book and I mentioned it. Lott goes into more detail. Breifly, the reasons are that if citizens carry concealed weapons the murders would get shot before they could make another Colombine massacre. Other crazies find that shootings aren't worth the risk or that they just can't kill enough people to make it worth dying for. Though they might try other ways of mass murder, like bombings.
It is not true that a ban on guns keep criminals from aquiring them. It has never been true and it never will be true. Though the law-abiding ctizens end up unarmed. Look at drug and alcohol prohibition for example. I'll mention England again because more people die in that country by gunfire now than when any crazy could own one. Also look at what happened in Austrailia recently.
Third, more children die riding bicycles each year than by firearms. Should we not allow children to ride bikes? It has also been documented in Lott's book again that letting people carry concealed handguns doesn't affect the rate of accidental shootings.
We also need to look at all the violent crimes that are not commited because a potential victim had a firearm. A person doesn't need to ever use a gun for it to be an effective deterrent.
CV
Chris,
I have not read Lott's book, so it is difficult for me to dispute it. But I find the statement "mass killings tend to dissappear when law abiding people start carrying concealed weapons" hard to imagine. What is his model for this well armed society? I can imagine some problems here as well, such as accidental deaths resulting from multiple people at the same time shooting at a suspect during a crime. Who might get caught in that crossfire? Police, for instance, are well trained not to shoot in crowd situations. Would a bunch of regular Joe's (and JoAnne's) trying to play hero be as careful? Doubtful. Would there be a problem of people who appear to be armed and dangerous being shot by accident? Again, police are well trained in this area and still make mistakes (see NY and Cincy, recently). Would citizens make more of these errors or less? I guess more.
The bike analogy is downright silly. Bicycles serve many positive social purposes and children (and adults)obviously derive much positive utility from them. Your points are enlightening. Stick to good reasoning. These analogies are patently ridiculous. Besides, at least bike manufacturers try to make a safer product when people die. Handgun manufacturers seem to balk at the idea of things like safety locks, finger recognition innovations, and the NRA fights mandatory lockboxes. I also have trouble believing that more gun owners does not mean more accidental deaths. Are the children and other relatives of this new class of owners somehow immune to the circumstances that have caused the previous deaths?
I did not intend to imply that gun control would keep criminals from procuring guns. It might make a dent though. Right now there is enough guns in this country for every adult to have 2 or 3 (if I remember correctly). It seems to me if that number were reduced by 80% for the sake of argument, that both criminals and non-criminals would have less guns. It is my guess that in countries such as England, where guns are scarce, many might be in the hands of criminals, but a much smaller percentage of criminals have them. Certainly that is preferable to criminals having access to an enormous black market in firearms such as in this country.
One last question, its kind of personal, so feel free not to answer. Wouldn't you feel vaguely creepy if you *knew* that a lot of people around you were carrying an object of lethal force? I live in a large city and I see people acting out of anger all the time on the roads, in bars, on the street, etc.. It scares me to imagine a city where this was the case but everyone also had a gun tucked in their pants. I'd feel much less safe, not more safe. Would you?
KJS
Some states have CCW(concealed carry weapon) laws and John Lott got his information from these areas. If you want to read his first report go here:
http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/~llou/guns.html
I don't see how the bike analogy is silly. Gun sports have a place in our society. Children and Adults do hunt. You can hunt big game with handguns too. I do agree that people need gun education when they take loaded guns into a public place. To get a CCW permit you have to pass a course in firearms training.
Please don't take guns away from the population. Other than deterring violent crime they keep us from being victims of bad governments. Just ask the Holocaust survivors gun control played a role in that situation.
To answer your last question lets look at an everyday phenomenon. People drive lethal weapons every day yet I have nothing to fear when I jump in my car, walk on the sidewalk, or ride my bike (and I sometimes ride in busy traffic). Why don't we see thousands of people ramming each other with head-on collisions, or taking out pedestrians? Sure once in a while we hear of "road-rage" but hardly any violent acts happen when they could easily happen constantly with motor vehicles.
CV
Here is an html page with a copy of the study that was later made into the book quoted in my essay.
http://www.geocities.com/~freewillie/CCW-STUDY.html
"Wouldn't you feel vaguely creepy if you *knew* that a lot of people around you were carrying an object of lethal force?"
if you dont want to be a free person, just say so.
brad
"One last question, its kind of personal, so feel free not to answer. Wouldn't you feel vaguely creepy if you *knew* that a lot of people around you were carrying an object of lethal force? I live in a large city and I see people acting out of anger all the time on the roads, in bars, on the street, etc.. It scares me to imagine a city where this was the case but everyone also had a gun tucked in their pants. I'd feel much less safe, not more safe. Would you? "
by the way, i assume when im out in public that some people *are* armed.
by the way, when florida went to at-will concealed carry permits, opponents stated this same argument, about exploding violence. what *actually* happened (empirical evidence, not opinion) is that all crime, especially violent crime, went down. also, at least as of like a year ago, not one single incident (like road rage leading to a shootout) had happened .(at least i heard that on some political talk show like chris matthews or something, not some wacko (or even a mainstream wacko like rush limbaugh).
brad
I would expect comments like this from a football play-by-play announcer. When lives are at stake, and the level of justice and morality of our society, I would think people might try to think for themselves and look at things carefully. I guess not.
.
I just recently got the 2000 WSOP Video that the Discovery Channel put out. I was kind of disappointed at the lack of actual poker I saw... I was thinking about getting the TOC and the World poker open videos... does anyone have those, and what videos are going to have the most poker action, and the least amount of filler... Thanks in advance!
The fish swam in the hold'em pool looking for a meal, they were hungry and had a taste for shark meat. The pool was filled with fish and very few sharks, so the sharks thought it would be an easy feed. The truth in life is everything depends on something else for it's existence. All the fish and all the sharks feed on each other making their existence possible. Nothing good happens unless something bad happens to another in the hold'em pool.
The sharks swam around taking their time, patience is a virtue in the sea world of hold'em and the sharks are a patient lot. The fish have no patience or loyalty to their own kind. Sharks don't have any loyalty either but as a general rule they try to stay out of each others way. The fish are a gruesome lot, they will at any give moment go on a feeding frenzy. They eat shark, other fish, and should they be feeding on the bottom they will even eat rocks.
At first everyone seemed to be sizing up the competition, then one of the sharks makes a move towards one of the fish, the fish called on his in stinks and did not run from the shark. The shark raised the steaks on turn and headed for the river with fish in tow. The fish had one out and when they reached the river the fish freed himself and bit off a piece of the sharks tail. The lines had been drawn in the sand and the fish ate first.
The shark moved away from the fish and tried to figure out how the fish got the better part of the encounter. The fish gained heart as they saw the shark swim away with part of his tail missing. They realized the sharks were vulnerable. Soon all the fishes were seeing they could defeat the sharks if they worked as collective unit. The sharks didn't see the encounter as anything to be worried about, heck they were just fish, something to feed on as the concept goes.
Sharks think they have a god given right to feed on the fish and never consider the fish a real problem. So when the fish began entering the pot in schools, the sharks just thought it was feeding time. The truth came to late for the sharks, the fish began to grow and sharks began to shrink in size. The sharks never knew what hit them, it was ugly. When the pool was finally closed the shark parts were everywhere, the fish were laughing and telling jokes. They had just finished a feeding frenzy and it was shark meat that was the main course.
So the moral of the story is, if you want to be a success in the hold'em pool do what the fish do go to school.
SPM,...re-reading the hold'em school books again...
You sound like a good solid player at Paradise.
I don't play for money on line.
SPM,...a man must know his limitations...
If you have a fast machine and a browser with all the bells and whistles you should check this out:
http://members.home.net/xp-whybee/fight.swf
The practice of referring to the addiction to alcohol(or any drug)as a disease was created to help people throw up their hands and say,"I need help!" Case closed. You choose your addiction, not vice versa.
Addiction = Choice
I think this is at first largely true in the early stages of addiction, but do you think this is also true in the latter stages of severe addiction (for instance, in heroin addiction)?
Much addiction is also a learning issue. Americans have higher alcoholism than some European countries because of the U.S.'s adolecent prohibition and then adulthood glamorization of drinking.
Countries that have a lower alcoholism rate let their children drink at a young age, but also look down on public drunkenness.
It is also a fact that total U.S. prohibition of alcohol in the 1920's caused even more problem drinkers than when alcohol was legal.
I also believe that prohibition of other drugs causes drug abuse to be more of a problem than if they were legalized (to a point).
Also notice this same problem with sexuality. American teens are constantly told to stay abstinent, but then sex is glamorized in the media and social gatherings. This may be why Americans are said to be oversexed. This also may be one of the reasons that America leads the developed world in the % of teen pregnancies.
CV
Interesting, although I have never heard that Americans are said to be oversexed.
You are completely backwards in your facts.
The US has a lower rate of alcoholism than almost every European nation.
The countries with the highest rates of alcoholism are the ones that are the biggest alcohol producers, and allowing children to drink wine is customary. These countries are Italy and France.
Before you spread any more disinformation on a very important and misunderstood topic, please be sure to pick up a clue.
.
I've heard talk radio's Dr. Dean Odell make reference to a few of the things Pro mentions, Odell has also stated that France has a higher rate of liver disease than the U.S.A.
wow, thats pretty funny, i remember dr. edell (or however spell) saying that a casual attitude towards drining (as in france and italy) leads to lower alchoholism. of course my memory could be wrong, especially as ive been drinking a lot lately.
brad
A drunk giggler? Now that's scary.
I assume you're asking if I think that once an addiction reaches the later stages, does a person still have a choice in the matter, even for heroin? Sure, thousands of heroin addicts voluntarily(choose) quit each year. Medical detoxification takes just a few weeks, and the phisical discomfort is relatively minor. It's usually accomplished by giving decreasing doses of a long-acting opiate like methedone. Actually, I'm much more impressed with extremely over-weight individuals who can get down to a healthy weight over a several month period(sometimes a year or more), and then manage to maintain their weight loss.
of moral weakness. No one should ever be impressed with you.
There is a lot of evidence that alcoholism is largely geneticly determined. Some researchers have even claimed to have identified an alcoholism gene. You are either born an alcoholic or you are not. Whether or not you deal with it correctly is largely a social problem.
As evidence you can look at population groups close to and further away from the origins of alcohol. There are very few Jewish alcoholics for example while you move further and further away from alcoholic hearths the rate increases, the highest being native americans who were only exposed to alcohol in the last few hundred years and have not had enough time to breed the adiction out of the population (and have alcohlism rate isn the 75%+ category).
The basic issue though is, is this a problem that can be dealt with? The answer is certainly yes, alcoholics can get help, deal with it and move on to more productive lives given the right support. Society is better when we help them regardless of why they are alcoholics. This is true whether or not it is a "choice."
Paul Talbot (a brother of an alcoholic who has salvaged a pretty good life)
I'm not up on the research at all, but is alcoholism itself or just a high degree of susceptibility towards alcohol/alcoholism that is thought to be genetically determined ? Please excuse me if this is splitting hairs, but from my layman's point of view it seems there might be some meaningful difference, especially if you are talking about being an alcoholic at birth (excepting those very unfortunate infants whose alcoholic mothers who drank during pregnancy).
"The practice of referring to the addiction to alcohol(or any drug) as a disease was created to help people throw up their hands and say,"I need help!" Case closed. You choose your addiction, not vice versa.
Addiction = Choice"
Your type of thinking is medieval to say the least. I hope when someone you knows asks you for help from their addiction or disease you are their for that person. It seems you have been blessed to not have run into someone in this hopeless condition before treatment otherwise you would not make such a statement.
anonymous
you pathetic addict, you......
to succinctly and brilliantly answer your question ... well, ill let others elaborate on that.
but what i think is that the statement
"alcohol(or any drug)as a disease was created to help people throw up their hands and say,"I need help!" "
may indeed be true, but it is also true that some people do need help.
as someone once said, the strength of a person can be measured by how much truth he can stand.
brad
Anyone coming to this board to see how serious gamblers interact socially and what they think of the world would understandably be horrified by your posts.
This is even worse than the death penalty idiocy, because anyone who has spent time around gambling knows that a many gamblers have addiction problems, and even some famous gamblers have had serious substance abuse problems (Ken Uston, Stu Ungar).
Please respect the rest of us. I will volunteer to put together an email list of 2+2ers who would rather have you spam us with this crap than see it here.
Thanks. If you are interested in such a list, or would volunteer to have your email on it, please respond.
Dan Z.
"Anyone coming to this board...would be horrified by your post."
Oh please, I think you underestimate the backbone of the average person visiting 2+2 for the first time, but just in case I'm wrong, in the future I'll run my topics by you first. Here's a few up-and-comers I hope you'll approve of:
(1) Homosexuality Is a Learned Behavior, Case Closed.
(2) Those who believe in the legalization of drugs should be deported, or at least caned with a bamboo rod.
(3) Let's eliminate all social welfare programs to fund a stronger boarder patrol, before it's too late!
(4) Global Warming, the Myth.
(5) S.D.I., a small price to pay to keep us safe from them...
(6)Why Rush Limbaugh's & Dr. Laura Schlessinger's best selling books should be madatory reading in ALL of America's Jr.High and High schools.
be interested to know what noam chomsky has to say on guns. thought you might know.
brad
From the Noam Chomsky archives, hosted by Z Magazine. There may be more on the site, this is first I came across:
"Q: Advocates of free access to arms cite the Second Amendment. Do you believe that it permits unrestricted, uncontrolled possession of guns?
Chomsky: It's pretty clear that, taken literally, the Second Amendment doesn't permit people to have guns. But laws are never taken literally, including amendments to the Constitution or constitutional rights. Laws permit what the tenor of the times interprets them as permitting.
But underlying the controversy over guns are some serious questions. There's a feeling in the country that people are under attack. I think they're misidentifying the source of the attack, but they do feel under attack.
The government is the only power structure that's even partially accountable to the population, so naturally the business sectors want to make that the enemy -- not the corporate system, which is totally unaccountable. After decades of intensive business propaganda, people feel that the government is some kind of enemy and that they have to defend themselves from it.
It's not that that doesn't have its justifications. The government is authoritarian and commonly hostile to much of the population. But it's partially influenceable -- and potentially very influenceable -- by the general population.
Many people who advocate keeping guns have fear of the government in the back of their minds. But that's a crazy response to a real problem.
Q: Do the media foster the feeling people have that they're under attack?
Chomsky: At the deepest level, the media contribute to the sense that the government is the enemy, and they suppress the sources of real power in the society, which lie in the totalitarian institutions -- the corporations, now international in scale -- that control the economy and much of our social life. In fact, the corporations set the conditions within which the government operates, and control it to a large extent.
The picture presented in the media is constant, day after day. People simply have no awareness of the system of power under which they're suffering. As a result -- as intended -- they turn their attention against the government.
People have all kinds of motivations for opposing gun control, but there's definitely a sector of the population that considers itself threatened by big forces, ranging from the Federal Reserve to the Council on Foreign Relations to big government to who knows what, and they're calling for guns to protect themselves.
Radio listener: On the issue of gun control, I believe that the US is becoming much more like a Third World country, and nothing is necessarily going to put a stop to it. I look around and see a lot of Third World countries where, if the citizens had weapons, they wouldn't have the government they've got. So I think that maybe people are being a little short-sighted in arguing for gun control and at the same time realizing that the government they've got is not exactly a benign one.
Chomsky: Your point illustrates exactly what I think is a major fallacy. The government is far from benign -- that's true. On the other hand, it's at least partially accountable, and it can become as benign as we make it.
What's not benign (what's extremely harmful, in fact) is something you didn't mention -- business power, which is highly concentrated and, by now, largely transnational. Business power is very far from benign and it's completely unaccountable. It's a totalitarian system that has an enormous effect on our lives. It's also the main reason why the government isn't benign.
As for guns being the way to respond to this, that's outlandish. First of all, this is not a weak Third World country. If people have pistols, the government has tanks. If people get tanks, the government has atomic weapons. There's no way to deal with these issues by violent force, even if you think that that's morally legitimate.
Guns in the hands of American citizens are not going to make the country more benign. They're going to make it more brutal, ruthless and destructive. So while one can recognize the motivation that lies behind some of the opposition to gun control, I think it's sadly misguided."
KJS
well of course i agree with him on that. but he wasn't talking about gun ownership as self defense against crime. by the way, if you notice, he agrees that the original intent of the 2nd amendment was to arm the people against government oppression (he just argues that it is no longer effective, and moreover, that it is totally misguided and overlooks the real 'enemy'.)
take a major emergency, like hurricane whatever in south florida. services were out for like weeks and people spray painted 'we're at home - we have guns' on their house walls -- gee, i wonder why, maybe looters?
brad
"If people have pistols, the government has tanks. If people get tanks, the government has atomic weapons."
I dont believe his next statement follows. And who said weapons have to be used violently to have a deterrant affect.
"There's no way to deal with these issues by violent force, even if you think that that's morally legitimate."
If he is trying to say that armed people are as easy to exterminate as unarmed people then he's just wrong. Historicly only unarmed people are the ones who suffer Holocaust type tragities.
We take freedom for granted because we have always had a right to bear arms. I wonder how our country would have changed historically if we had been denied that right.
CV
well, i think the interview with chomsky is about how to bring about social change, not self-defense or criminal deterrence or anything. he's talking about the political process, not about crime. and he's right, of course, its a rough road when the political process involves guns. nevertheless, guns are our constitutional 'last resort' type of thing, although i doubt most people today could even begin to demand a decent government, since few even realize the significance of the US being a republic, as opposed to a democracy.
brad
"Do you believe that it permits unrestricted, uncontrolled possession of guns? "
the question was a bit extreme. any reasonable person is going to say there should be some gun control.
curious if chomsky is in favor of gun confiscation, as in gun control with the aim of 'zero tolerance' towards guns in society. (as in england, where theyre also getting rid of juries, double jeopardy, criticizing the government, etc. (but now ive drifted back into guns as a political tool, which is an argument i cant win) )
brad
brad,
Of course, Chomsky might simply say that "guns" consists of two morphemes, the free morpheme "gun" and the bound morpheme "s." But, I don't think this is what you were after ;-} Then again, who knows?
John
if you want the straight dope on foreign affairs, chomsky pretty much doesnt hold anything back.
brad
s
The troubled hand doesn't look so troubled when it's been a long while since you have seen a flop. You have embraced the release and are determined to play from the Valley of Patience (VoP). Your in early position, down a stack or two from the never ending return of the blinds, and of course you lost with your first pair of pocket Aces to a 72 off in the small blind. In another hand the UTG releases as does the player to his left. You look down and see KJ off, before you can evaluate the weakness of your hand the chips slip into the pot before you can stop yourself.
All fold to the button who has radar control of the table and it seems he knows you are speeding. The troubled hand is now two bets instead of one. The flop comes with a J and the rest are rags. You check to the button who bets you raise he re-raises and he pounds to the river where the button beats you with AJ. Sound familar? Welcome to the world of Texas Hold'em.
Troubled hands are like the fat grams in junk food, their not good for you but they look and taste so good. No wonder so many of us are hocked on their spell binding looks and when they win they taste soooooooooooooo good. Is there any troubled hand you have never won with, of course not, we've all won with them repeatedly. In fact when on a rush, troubled hands win from any position, the troubled hands during a rush become valued hands to any2will do crowd. If the troubled hands had a voice they would cry out for respect. They would want to be include in the group one hands, or at least be considered for first alternate position in the group one selection. What family of Hands has given more joy over the years to reckless hold'em players. I respectfully submit that the Troubled Hands have given their all for the respect they never seem to get from the results in the long run.
The troubled hand is a short run winner and can get a player off to a fast start in a game when Lady Luck is there to shove the hand across the finish line. Seeing a player win with a troubled hand repeatedly in loose games gives courage to the remaining residents of Any2card Town. Before long the Border Town players jump on the band wagon and the rocks crumble in defeat with their best starting hands that end up in the also ran statistics.
So why does the troubled hand never get the respect for it's efforts from the guru's of poker books. Have they forgotten all the times they sent the trouble hands into battle and received stacks of chips for the hard work of the troubled hand. Respect is all they want, they don't want to be put on pedestal along side pocket aces or kings. The troubled hands only want a little respect. Lets give the troubled hands the respect they deserve, but don't go crazy, play them in late position, in un-raised pots sparingly. Tell them how much you respect their courage before you send them out to play.
SPM,...oh don''t forget overplaying troubled hands is the first step to the STATISTICAL CLEANSING...
nt
What's with ad.doubleclick.net ? I'm not even clicking on anything and a system message keeps popping up saying the operation timed out when attempting to contact ad.doubleclick.net. This happened 2 more times as I tried to close the system message window.
Just to be sure, I closed and reopened my browser and tried it again making sure I clicked nothing but "Other Topics" under the Forum column on the left side of the page. Same problem.
I can spel I just don't prooofreed befor I post.
I'm about 9- 12 months away from moving to Pittsburgh, PA for business and family reasons. After living in northern california for ages with 24 hr. access to card games, what can I do once in PA? I'm thinking the occasional trip to AC and Foxwoods, maybe even finding a riverboat somewhere down the Ohio River, but that doesn't sound like much. Any suggestions other than AC, Foxwoods, and Paradise Poker?
After you have understood s&m's holdem for advanced players what books would you say have given you the most insight/benafit...
I've recently read Inside the Poker Mind by John Feeney (sp) and found it most helpful... I highly recommend it
Also Zen and the Art of Poker and it has some interesting concepts of the game....
What else is out there that could cause an advanced player to increase his level of play....
I would add "The Cooke Collection" by Roy Cooke and "Improve Your Poker" by Bob Ciaffone.
I just bought a 1979 VW bus.
It needs a little work.
Just thought you'd like to know.
vince
he he
How much did it cost? Because I'm planning a trip to the States for half a year, and I want a van to be my home :-)
I'm serious though...I'm really interested.
Thanks.
I paid $1500 plus $100 for delivery.
It needs some minor work though.
I also have a line on a 1995 GMC Van that was used by a Prison for transporting prisoners. 36,000 miles. Has a high top you can stand up in it. $3300. Great conversion project. I'm still thinking about it though. I have a day to make up my mind.
vince
vince
In 1979, I bought a brand new VW Bus. A camper, with pop-top, stove, and refrigerator. What a fantastic vehicle.
Unless you had to drive up a hill, as it was very underpowered. Or if it was cold outside, as the heater sucked. Or if it was hot outside, as it had no AC. Or if you encountered the natural enemy of the VW bus, WIND.
Other than those things, it was just great.
Maybe I still have some parts for it. If I do you can have them. I'll look around.
Vince,
If you ever dare travel at the VW's maximum downhill speed of about 50 mph in the left lane of any Los Angeles freeway and end up in front of me I will personally shoot you.
Regards,
Rick
You'll do anything to stay in that "EXCLUSIVE CLUB"!!!
When's the "Paint The VW Bus Party" ???
I'm sure your buddy Z would come!!!!!
I'll bring the "Rooms"
paul
.
The VW bus. Wonderful memories. Surfing in Mexico 60's. Sharing the back with a dozen other hitchhikers and my fondest, fellow fish bum who used to live in his. I've eaten many a meal prepared on a coleman in his van and travelled many miles in pursuit of trout.
He was much more dedicated than I. He spent a couple of winters in Montana sitting in his van waiting for spring. Couldn't be sure he could come up with gas money to get back if he left.
Sorry for the babble. Hope you create many fine memories.
Don't worry about going 50 its part of the appeal. Good Luck.
When I left here I checked my e-mail.
There was a note from the fella I purchased it from.
I had given him the money and asked him to deliver it on Saturday.
In the e-mail he thanked me for the sale.
He also thanked me for trusting him with the money.
He is a nice fellow, liked him right off. So why not!
Vince
It all started rather innocently...about 5 years ago. Somewhere on the Mississippi River...in a simple 3-6 Hold 'Em game. I won $400. And I was hooked. And so it went... For months I read every poker item I could find...practiced on-line, and played 3-6 once a week on Sunday's.
A year later I was playing 10-20 and pot limit 30 hours a week. I didn't work for the last two years I was in college. I managed my bankroll like I was Charles Freakin Schwab. I got a full time job out of college..played a couple nights a week, and then went for it.
Hell, my bankroll was strong and it's what I wanted to do with my life - or so I thought. So I moved to the west coast...to play poker.
16 months later, I am busted. On the felt. Flat out broke. It didn't start out that way, believe me. For 9 months life was grand. Winning days were the norm, I had a beautiful new girlfriend, and I was living the life I thought I had always wanted.
Then the night came...up about $2500. in a magnificant 30-60 Hold 'Em game. That was my last winning session for 4 weeks. I started bitching about bad beats, sending myself into mini-tilt time and time again for over a month. Back to 10-20...nothing changed. One winning session, then back to getting pounded.
When I bought in for that last $500. I knew what was coming. Everyone knew it. When I raised that pretty looking Ace King of Clubs on the button, and watched the flop come AK2, my friends knew I was as good as gone. For the local maniac had a pretty pair of red dueces in the pocket, and the remainder of my stack -and bankroll - migrated about 3 feet to my right. I quietly picked up my CD player, slipped on my jacket, and told a couple of my friends good night. They said they would see me tomorrow, and I nodded my head, only to know that would not be the case.
So what happened...just 30 days ago? It's really quite simple...I was cocky, and I was getting outplayed. Not a good combination. I thought I was on top of the world, and I was severely mistaken. I lost my dream...and the most important part of that sentence is that "I" lost my dream.
So where to go from here. I have a new job, and a desire to be better than I ever was before. The books...they are already being re-read. The videos...watched and re-watched. When I cashed my paycheck last Friday one thing entered my mind...then I reminded myself that no way was I ready. I'm in training...pre-season if you want to call it that. When I return in August of 2001 I will be stronger and smarter than I have ever been. I will be the force that I once was...and will regain the respect that I deserve. Will it happen instantly? No. Will it happen by the end of the year? Probably not. But it will happen...
So don't you worry...I will be back. I'll be back at that table. And when I return...and they ask where me where I have been...we will all know...too bad they won't.
Until then...take care and good night.
Peace.
"I managed my bankroll like I was Charles Freakin Schwab. "
"When I bought in for that last $500."
"So what happened..."
gee,i see a picture starting to emerge here. ill see you in the 30-60 game when you return.
brad
Hang in there sport, everyone at sometime or other has busted their bank roll. Back to the books and video's is a great idea. Think about all the mistakes you made, when the banna made you slip and fall. Falling can build chacter if you approach it as a learning experiecne.
Don't ask for a loan and when you get back into action keep the job for awhile, it will give your new bank roll some security. Smart Pro's always have something else going for them, that compliments their poker income.
SPM,...having well thought out goals is the first step to success...
it is committment that focusses the brain and leads us to success...otr has made a committment to success and therefore will ....
there is a tide..
in the affairs of men...
which taken at the flood...
leads to...
:-)
now normally when i think of guns i think of crime control, etc., as in my personal protection.
but in the noam chomsky thread good old noam was talking about politics (as usual), and i just remembered something pretty amazing.
now i live in arizona, and listen to this! last year a bill made it out of committee (but didnt make it to a full vote on the floor, hey dont ask me) in the state legislature, which basically said that in the event that the united states gave up its national sovereignty OR a federal gun confiscation was implemented, the state of arizona would *secede* from the union.
personally, i didnt believe it, so went to the arizona legislature web page and looked up the bill and it was *true*. (by the way, it passed committe by like 4-3 or something.)
pretty weird, huh.
brad
by the way, i was asking a (phoenix) police officer about transporting guns (when he pulled me over for a busted tail light), and i thought it was really funny.
... (asking about going to the shooting range) ...
me: i dont have to store them in a locked box or have a trigger lock or anything, do i?
cop: no.
me: just put them in the trunk?
cop: or in the front seat. as long as theyre not concealed, no problem.
me: just have them unloaded?
cop: no, you can have them loaded. you just cant have them concealed.
me: oh.
brad
you know, i just realized that there might be a connection between breaking up with my girlfriend and having all these thoughts about shooting guns.
brad
ps please, a freudian interpretation here, not a violent one:)
brad,
Did you read the article about Sheriff Joe in the last Harper's? You should try to find a copy. What a sadist. Does a good job exploding another myth about crime--being a sadist as*hole to people who have been arrested (many just waiting for trial) has no effect on the overall crime rate. At least that is the case for Pheonix.
KJS
Where's it at?
"for KJS and M"
KJS posted a chomsky interview in which he discusses guns as a political tool.
brad
Wanted to get some thoughts on the following. My ex-girlfriend and I broke up about a year ago. It wasnt an ugly breakup but we do not keep in touch anymore. During the time we were together, we did a homemade video of us together (if you know what I mean). It was done with her consent/knowledge. She has never called and asked that I destroy it, which at some point in time I expected her to do. What do you make of this? Could she do something like this then just forget about it? I treat that video like a brick of gold!!!!!
She's probably made so many of them that she thinks "what's one more?".
keep it, enjoy it, hide it when you get another girlfriend, destroy it if you get married, never EVER let anybody else know it exists or show it off
Post it on the net and send us the URL
Love is a fleeting thing.
Look at it one last time and record over it. The consequence of it falling into another's hands are too ugly to contemplate. Imagine it being viewed down at the local precint station in front of a bunch of donut swilling pigs. Let it live on only in your memory.
what responses! all seem rather frivolous, this a serious situation, and deserves a serious answere! please send the tape to me so that i can study, then i can give you an in depth report. Jim
Maybe I am being too serious but a gentleman would destroy it.
.
If you ever saw Robert Blake on a talk show years back, you probably got the impression he was unbalanced and homicidal. He said for instance he wanted to play the part of (Perry?) in the movie 'In Cold Blood' so bad that he would have done it for nothing. I kinda like the guy so I hope he didn't kill his wife but I think it looks very strange.
I think he hired O.J. O.J.'s good at getting off.
vince
In the past few years Hollywood has accepeted the concept of killing your spouse as no different than the U.S.Postal Workers killing each other.
As long as bad beats don't become the impetus to kill hold'em players, we are all still safe.
SPM,...always good to watch your six...
Baretta couldn't have done it. As a youth, Baretta reruns were my favorite police show. THis is unthinkable. Did I mention Pete Rose was my baseball hero?
Hmmm, now how did I find myself a disillusioned statistician wrapped up in serious gambling...
I think he did... but we'll never really know...
Do you suppose if he gets convicted all the white folks in LA will riot?
For what its worth...
Just another egg
I say it's 2 to 1 he did it or had someone do it for him.
I don't beleive in coincidence and his alibi stinks.
A long vacation in the Valley of Patience (Vop) finally came to an end, the vacationing worker was exhausted from the stress of hanging out with the rocks. He had always been a fair hold'em player never winning much in the long run and never losing much either. He was a short run hold'em player who loved the game, the action, and of course the endless chatter that made the game so much fun. He thought a vacation in the VoP would be just as much fun as going to the casino after work hand been for so many years.
His game plain was to mimic the playing style of a rock, abandoning the fun loving, joke it up, any two cards can win attitude, that he had used to his advantage for so many fun loving years at the hold'em table. He had calculated the playing style of a rock would extend his vacation time. He called it a vacation because he would only be playing cards and everyone knows playing cards is fun, and a long extended visit to the casino poker room just had to be fun.
His new playing style worked like a charm, when he was in a hand he won most of his battles. Of course his starting requirements were a tad bit more strict than he had been use to during his recreational playing career. At first the new playing style worked like a charm, winning is always fun, and he was having the time of his life. The reason was obvious, the good cards were coming his way and holding up on the river.
As days slipped into weeks, and the weeks began to add up to a month on vacation in the VoP. The new rock was beginning to see the down side of the VoP. The fun of winning was beginning to ware on the vacation man. Sure his poker totals were the best they had ever been but where was the fun. It became painfully obvious that in the VoP, long periods of endless monotonist releasing of rags can kill all the fun of playing day in and day out. He began to shorten the number of hours he played, winning early meant he could leave early and within a few days he was spending less and less time at the hold'em tables. The money was the only joy left in the game.
After three months of winning it was a drag, sure the money was good, but to win it he had to pay closer attention to the game. The side chip chatter he loved had to be side lined so the hold'em player could get a better handle on the game. The game was now work, and work is not a vacation. The other players began to call him a ROCK, he was depressed. So this is the life of a poker pro, he thought. You can't play rags, you can't play troubled hands from any position, and playing the Ax for a flush from early position is a no no. The other players taunted him, you only play the nuts. That didn't make sense how does any player entering a hand know if he has the nuts, that info is only given up usually on the river. But, their comments had a sting that hurt, the better he played the more disrespect he got from the flip comments at the table.
Finally his nerves on edge, the isolation from the other players and he was back to work, hold'em is more fun as a recreational player.
SPM,...sometimes the grass looks greener on the other side, don't be fooled...
Congrats SPM,
This is the best post I have ever read!
SPM,
Good post. The Valley of Patience does always look greener from the outside looking in. Some days hanging out in the valley feels like hangin’ in death valley. You start to think to yourself I’ve been patient its my turn now. But patience is its own reward. You must enjoy the use of non-action as a weapon. If you cannot enjoy that, the stay in the valley will be short lived.
Remember minimizing a loss is as important, if not more important, as maximizing a win.
For what its worth……
Just another egg
If you play poker for any other reason than to win money......
vince
How do I advertise (banner) on 2+2
I have just learned that The Bellagio Poker Room will be going smoke free on June 1.
Too bad my next visit is next weekend.
KJS
Now that I am on my way to stopping smoking this will definetely help. My last trip to Mirage was difficult because the temptation to smoke was enhanced by having to watch everybody else do it..... Anyway do you think this is going to have any adverse affect on the business that they (Bellagio) get? I know that here in California the bars and racetracks were hurt from the smoking ban (although I don't think they were hurt very badly).
So can I drive my VW bus in there now?
Vince.
Great news!
i hope they dont back down if a few big spenders complain. what may happen in the beginning is that some of the games may migrate to the mirage and that place will get more smokers then in turn the nonsmokers will head over to the belaggio and then they will get more business then the smokers will have to follow and then the mirage will go down and then as the bellagio gets too crowded the mirage will start to fill up and then the people from the bellagio will go compllain about the smoke at the mirage and then the mirage will have to go nonsmoking and then the businees from the bellgaio will go to the mirage and then its evened out again. the bad part is that it takes away part of my excuse to never go go vegas.
Ray,
I believe this is exactly what happened in Atlantic City when the Taj went nonsmoking. The Tropicana went nonsmoking 10 months later.
Ray wrote: "the bad part is that it takes away part of my excuse to never go go vegas."
Why is that bad?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
" the bad part is that it takes away part of my excuse to never go go vegas."
And I thought it was cause of me, you little white haired devil you. rrrroof, rrrroof..
Vince
I seem to recall that Badgers prime complaint concerning Vegas Poker was that the rooms allowed smoking. Does Bellagio changing to NS translate to Badger moving to Vegas? Can't see how he can avoid it. The Bellagio has the softest 15-30 Omaha 8 game in the country and you can't beat the rake. Looks like ou may be getting a new neighbor David and Mason.
vince
O.K maybe it's not the softest game but for a world champ...
the big downside is that that lepore guy may hang around more
And I thought you woved me, Ray, you big bear you!
Vince
I wonder if it will hurt the games since the biggest recreational “drop in” gamblers often smoke AND they have other gambling options where smoking is allowed (unlike California). If they do play they will be walking more often, especially since they won’t be paying time. If they go “all in” the natural reaction will be to leave the room and have a smoke before getting more chips. A lot of the time their heads will clear and they may decide to take off. Usually they won’t even bother to notify the staff that the seat is open. So instead of playing against a “live” smoker the seat will be tied up for a while and a rock is likely to eventually replace the smoker.
I also wonder if the games at the Mirage will become more “live” than the Bellagio games if they continue to allow smoking.
Regards,
Rick
PS I don’t smoke but believe the health risks of second hand smoke are exaggerated. However, the health risks of having a reduced income are enormous.
"PS I don’t smoke but believe the health risks of second hand smoke are exaggerated"
Rick,
I used to believe this but after spending 2 weeks in a smoke filled Nevada Card room you may change your mind. Once I've played for a two week period I feel as if I were actually smoking again. I get morning congestion, a smokers morning sickness if you will, and I cough and gag for long periods during the day. If I din't love Vegas so much I would move out to LA and become your room mate. your so cute.
Hey, how can an action that entices Vince Lepore to play not be profitable for you pro players? I'm a good thing when I play.
vince
Vince,
My guess is that you played at Binion’s. The place is falling apart. But I remember the Mirage was very well ventilated when I played there a few years ago. I guess second hand smoke just doesn’t bother me much unless it is really thick.
BTW, I don’t need a roommate but my brother lives back in Boston and may need one. He is far “cuter” than me too and is very neat. He hates gambling though.
Rick
Well, you are purely speculating on the effects you think might result. As far as I know, none of the largest poker rooms on the East Coast experienced a drop in activity after instituting a no-smoking policy. In fact I think the reverse may have been found to be true.
While the above represents pure speculation on your part, there are documented facts available for anyone who cares to actually find out some facts about the effects of secondhand smoke. The best source of this information that I am aware of is contained in The Health Consequences Of Involuntary Smoking, a report of the Surgeon General, 1986. This report reflects the contributions of more than 60 scientists representing a variety of disciplines and includes summaries of results from studies. The individual chapters in the report were written by experts and subjected to an extensive outside peer review whereby each chapter was reviewed by up to seven experts. The revised edition of the final report was further resubjected to review by 17 distinguished scientists both in this country and abroad. There is more along these lines but that should suffice to give an idea of the thoughness with which this report was compiled. It is also available for free from :
THE U.S. DEPT. OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES
Public Health Service
Centers For Disease Contro;l
Center for Health Promotion and Education
Office on smoking and Health
Rockville, Maryland 20857
It only 16 pages long and can be read through without too much trouble. A medical background is not necessary to follow most of it.
Interestingly, when I brought this up and cited portions of the report quite some time ago during the time we had long threads here on this forum regarding this, NOBODY attempted to refute the evidence or conclusions contyained in this report. They chose instead to argue other points, probably because they could not argue with the facts. Likewise a bit more recently on RGP a Card Player columnist stated that he had an opinion regarding how harmful secondhand really is but it was as if he just "chose" his opinion without having facts on which to base it upon. He further declined to read this report himself. I got the impression his mind was made up and he wasn't about to let any easily available facts change it. He stressed how I was entitled to my opinion as was he. Of course that is his right and I do respect him and his column in other ways, but it is also true an opinion admittedly based upon ignorance is not worth much. Nothing like being an ostrich once in a while, for all of us, I guess.
I don't know to what extent you have basis for your opinion, and I respect you in many ways too, but it just appears ludicrous to me that so many people form mild to very strong opinions on this and other matters with almost no factual basis for their beliefs. Maybe you have a lot of factual reasons for thinking the dangers of secondhand smoke are exaggerated. I suggest that very few people who critically read this free 16-page report will ever think so again, though.
I know you are a thoughtful and sincere person and I apologize somewhat for the tone of my post.
It is just that virtually all meaningful controversy regarding this overall issue exists in the courtrooms and not in the medical and scientific communities. In the medical and scientific communities it is generally widely acknowledged that secondhand smoke poses serious health risks to involuntary smokers. What I believe has happened is that the general public has been made very aware of the controversies in the courtrooms, and this has caused many laypersons to assume there is great controversy in the scientific and medical communities as well. While there are of course some disputed points and differing views within the medical and scientific communities, these tend to be related to certain specific points and not to the general conclusion that secondhand smoke poses a significant danger to nonsmokers. For instance some have claimed that the conclusions of a different report, the EPA study, are too broad and not substantiated. I do not know much about this specific case but it is largely a red herring anyway. You could throw out the entire EPA report and study and still have plenty of damning evidence although you might not derive the exact same number of deaths per year. It is ridiculous for people to attack the conclusion that secondhand smoke is dangerous to passive smokers on the basis of one disputed study when in fact plenty of other studies and evidence exist which point in the same general direction.
M,
Don’t worry, I wasn’t offended by the tone of your post. I also don’t want to rehash the debate on second hand smoke again (one which I only contributed to slightly), as it has been done so much here and especially on RGP.
I don’t think banning smoking will hurt the amount of business in the poker rooms; in fact it may increase it as you stated. I still think it will tend to tighten up the games and drive some (not all) of the real gamblers away or at least out of their seats for frequent breaks. And all this is pure speculation on my part.
Anyway, I’ve learned my lesson. Don’t debate the dangers of second hand smoke unless you have a lot of time and passion about the subject. I have neither.
Regards,
Rick
I agree that it may result in games being slightly less full at times as smokers take short breaks. All the more reason to become reasonably competent at playing semi-shorthanded.
You speculate that smokers are the only loose gamblers at the table? Why is that?
Chip Breaker,
When smoking was allowed in California my personal observation was that the average smoker is looser and more likely to be a gambling maniac than the average non-smoker. This doesn’t mean that “only” smokers can be loose gambling types.
Regards,
Rick
I don't think so because the sports and horse books are right there and the smokers don't have to go very far to light up.
So, only the poker room is non-smoking?
How about the Taj in AC? Same thing?
Yes, only the poker room is nonsmoking. There is no smoke wafting in, however, because the room is enclosed and is separated from the rest of the casino by a fairly wide hallway .
Don't worry, skp. You will only have to go a few steps to feed your habit. The bellagio room isn't glassed in, it has open partitions. You will be able to watch your table while you smoke.
x
Of course, this is the reason why the smoking ban isn't all that great. It brings to mind the comment on rgp about swimming in the no peeing section of the pool.
Still better than swimming in the peeing section, though.
Agreed, it will help the situation 105%
People said the same thing when the Taj in AC went nonsmoking. The games there are still good, and the Tropicana went nonsmoking around 10 months later because they were losing too much business. People just run outside to grab a smoke -- sometimes they don't even miss 10 hands.
There might be more smokers in Las Vegas, but the Taj said 80 percent of their players were not smokers, and that seems right to me. Also, even if the games are a little less profitable, the bonus of a smoke-free environment far exceeds the cost.
Rick, you are even more wrong about the effects of second hand smoke than you are about 62s. Go play every day for a while at Casino Arizona and you won't need a doctor's opinion. You'll know just from the way you feel. I wish they would go non-smoking also.
As far as the effects on the games, a little less ev is an acceptable trade for better health. One thing that worries me though, is that some of the pro's who moved to CA to avoid the smoke may come back to LV. But that will just make the CA games better.
PS Tell hero it's about time she knocked it off.
Brett,
I believe you trade a lot of EV for a very little bit of health. Money buys health care, good healthy food, time to exercise and so on. More money translates to an enormous gain in life expectancy.
Meanwhile, Hero can decide for herself. She will remain my Hero whatever she decides.
Regards,
Rick
PS I really want to end my involvement in this smoking thread with this post.
That's great not only one of the nicest places to walk around now the nicest place to play. Hopefully it will start a chain reaction in Vegas. It really is difficult for a person to go back into a smoking room after enjoying the non-smoking atmosphere.
paul
I will be very interested to learn whether or not a smoking ban hurts the games. Our Spirit Mountain casino (Oregon) went smoke free last November and it most definitely reduced the participation by more than 50%. And the games are not as wild/easy. The setting is very different of course - Spirit Mt. is 30 miles from any major city. On the other hand, there are practically no other cardrooms anywhere near so presumably the smokers just stopped playing altogether which suggests they feel very strongly about it.
An interesting side affect: Spirit Mt. had a popular jackpot award - frequently in the range of $20 - $60 thousand. Now with the slowed action (and drop) it has dwindled to the $2000 - $4000 range which compounds the problem. Who wants to play with a $1 drop when the jackpot is only $3000?
The reason Spirit Mountain has lost business is because they capped the jackpot at something like $15,000? I'm not sure about the number. The only reason they ever had a full room was because the jackpot would get very large at times and people from all over the state were attracted by the possibility of a big payoff. There was never any other reason for people to drive all the way out there in the middle of nowhere. Smoking is not the reason they have lost business. That particular cardroom was never busy (except for the weekends) anyway. LaCenter hasn't noticed an appreciable difference in business. The Spirit Mountain people aren't coming out here in droves. The Last Frontier in LaCenter will go non-smoking within 6 months to one year anyway. I predict business will increase.
The Last Frontier in LaCenter will go non-smoking within 6 months to one year anyway. I predict business will increase.
LaCenter Larry, are you kidding? No smoking at LaCenter??? My prayers are answered! What do you know that most others don't? Are they getting sued? Whatever the reason, I applaud it. It can't happen soon enough. I won't have an excuse to stay home.
I've been a regular at Spirit Mountain since before the smoking ban. The decline in poker participation began immediately after the ban and before the jackpots were capped at $15,000. I believe the jackpot tampering and addition of the La Center-like mini bad beat awards is a reaction to the slowdown and an attempt to stimulate interest. The fact is there are many heavy smokers I distinctly recall as live players who just don't come anymore.
I hope you're right about the Frontier going non-smoking but when I talked to their management about it a while back and mentioned the national trend to bring second hand smoke law suits, they just sneared.
I feel like I'm not getting something that everyone else has a clear understanding of.
How could anyone be seriously opposed to letting a nation build itself a defense against incoming missiles? It boggles my mind.
Am I missing something? When European nations, Russia, China etc condemn the U.S. for initiating attempts to build a missile defense shield, I don't understand how they can voice their concerns with a straight face.
There is only ONE reason why you would begrudge someone the means to protect themselves.
Whenever I hear about some other nation's leaders/spokesperson grumbling or complaining about the US's putative missile defense, I think to myself "gee, thanks for the warning, I didn't know you were planning to bomb my ass until now".
What confuses me even further is that there are AMERICANS who oppose defending themselves against missiles. How can this be? I've heard some argue that it's too expensive for such an unreliable system. Ok, I can believe someone would feel that way legitimately. But many detractors oppose it for reasons other than the cost. If it were free they would still oppose it.
Many detractors simply react that way to anything done by Bush. Fine, live in your little partisan world if you must. In my mind, whichever party you blindly follow religiously, you are no different than a brainwashed cultist. You would have been a Nazi in the right time and place with your little mind.
But for those of you who actually THINK about an issue regardless of what side your party is on, I would really like to know what you think. I would like to hear from someone who adamantly opposes defending ourselves against possible missile attack for reasons other than the cost.
I'm not fired up about the system, mostly because I DO have concerns about the cost, but I've heard so much heated reaction against the concept that I have to wonder, why? What's wrong with having it?
natedogg
I think the main reason most are opposed is the cost. There is little evidence that the type of missiles which the SDI would protect us from are on a short list of ways in which someone who wants to attack the United States would employ. What I have heard most from proponents is "well, someone might have some missiles and they might decide to use them, so we might as well protect ourselves." To me that is the equivalent to wearing a flack jacket everyday because some crazy guy 8 blocks away has a BB gun. When that flack jacket costs billions of dollars, it seems even more foolhardy.
There is also the issue as to whether or not the US would restart an arms race and be bowing out of international agreements that previous administrations have signed off on. I wish I was armed with all the details here, but I am not. Suffice it to say that I think it is a legitimate position to say that we should not build this project because of the effect it might have on arms proliferation worldwide. If we previously agreed not to, that goes double. Even if it was free. I am saying that coming from the belief that there is, IMO, very little chance that anyone on the planet is planning to use ICBMs against the US--whether or not we have the SDI. The trade-off for destabilizing the world by increasing military spending and arms proliferation v. eliminating a very, very slim possibility of a missile attack is not equal. When you throw in the enormous cost of the project and the fact that it might not even ever work (hello Stealth bomber) the scale tilts way towards dropping the idea.
Finally, I find offense in comments such as "But for those of you who actually THINK about an issue regardless of what side your party is on, I would really like to know what you think." To me, this statement reeks of closemindedness more than most of the actual responses I see here from people with opinions. People who take time to craft opinions and post them obviously think about them. The "party line" is a made-up concept only used to discount the thoughts of people. Seems that you are preparing to do so before the fact by adding such a statement.
KJS
Thanks for your great response. You definitely gave me something to think about. The "too expensive" argument is the most compelling. As devil's advocate I have to point out that "destabilizing the world by increasing military spending and arms proliferation" is only speculation and doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Why would a nation like Russia or France (two loud opponents of a US missile shield) want to build more arms simply because the U.S. developed a means of preventing missile attacks? I'm not convinced that having a shield would somehow give rise to worldwide military buildup.
Also the chance of nuclear missile attack may be slim today but there's no telling what will happen in the future. I think the flak jacket analogy you used could be extreme. You could also use the analogy of putting locks on your doors even tho you live in a nice neighborhood. Granted, if the locks cost as much as your house, it's probably not worth it. Just go buy a gun. But if the locks were free I'd take 'em. :)
natedogg
For the realist security planners in both the U.S. and in Russia the world is still a zero-sum game. If the U.S. procedes witht he defense shield Russia will either 1) start looking for ways to destroy the sheild or 2) look for other anti-american strategic alliences it can make to offset U.S. power elsewhere.
It is additionally distressing that the U.S. is intentionally proceding with the idea at a time when they know Russia cannot put resources into a similar project thus offsetting a balance of power. If Russia decides to try and keep pace it could screw up their post-Soviet recovery for decades which would result in the continued sufferign of millions of people in that country.
I think you have to understand the power of realist thinking. The people who are charged with protecting state security always assume the worst. The power of realism is that you don't have to be right. Say Russia is 99.9% certain that the U.S. does not pose a nuclear threat, what should their action be? Well, they should assume that the U.S. has a goal of wiping Russia off the face of the earth. Why? Because the consequences of being wrong when assuming the U.S. is a threat are much smaller than the consequences of being wrong when they assume the U.S. is not a threat. They think like this, the United States security people think like this. It is why the defense shield HAS to result in an escalation of military spending and international tensions.
Regards,
Paul Talbot
The "party line" is a made-up concept only used to discount the thoughts of people. Seems that you are preparing to do so before the fact by adding such a statement.
Both of these statement are completely incorrect.
Many, many people blindly follow the "party line" they are given by their political party, religion, university professors, parents, what have you. Critical thinking is something that is actually quite uncommon. I was only preparing to discount the thoughts of people who do not have thoughts of their own. :)
I don't have strong opinions about this missile shield issue, and genuinely want to hear opinions, but I know it's a hot button and it will bring out a lot of party shills, too.
natedogg
natedogg,
Thanks for starting a good discussion.
I still have to take offense with "I was only preparing to discount the thoughts of people who do not have thoughts of their own". How do you identify these people? Seems impossible to tell from where I am sitting. Does anyone fit this category?
My only point was these dismissals are most often applied to those who don't think as we do. Its an easy way to discount someone who actually does think for themselves. Better to just engage everyone on their points, IMO.
KJS
The missile defense idea is pure bullshit.
The argument is that it will protect the U.S. from "rouge states" and terrorists. Okay rouge states (ie. North Korea): we already have a defence against them lobbing a missile at the U.S. Ten minutes later North Korea doesn't exist. No state is going to attack the U.S. using an ICBM. Terrorists: same deal 1) they don't have any ICBMs, 2) it's a lot easier to just blow up a nuclear device on a boat in New York harbor or something of the sort.
Can a missile defense shield protect us from attack by Russia or China? No, and no one is even arguing this. In fact few actually believe we could set up a system to shoot down one single missile accidently launched.
So why build a missile defense system? It 1) wont work and 2) wont protect the U.S. from a real nuclear threat or from terrorist threats.
What the missile defnse system is, is a MASSIVE SUBSIDY TO DEFENsE CONTRACTORS! That's it. Nothing else. The whole idea doesn't make any sense. All it will do is channel billions of taxpayer dollars to a few corporations (who I suspect we can find made pretty hefty campaign contributions).
Forget the charade, cut the defense industry some billion dollar checks and don't waste anyone's time building something that wont work.
Paul Talbot
natedogg,
I’m out of time and energy to debate this but I did read a related article by my favorite pundit George Will on this subject. You might enjoy it. Here is the link:
Link To George Will Article On Limited Missile Defense
Regards,
Rick
George and I went to the same high school. He's one of the few conservatives to come out of it over the last 50 years (and surprisingly not one of our most notable alumni which includes tgree nobel prize winners). I humbly disagree with him on this issue as indicated in other posts. Poor George has been in Washington too long. Look at where the $ is going.
Paul Talbot
Rick,
How do you create links in your posts that we can click onto? If it's complicated, just ignore this post.
Ben
Ben S.
When I find the page I want I copy the URL to my clipboard using my right mouse.
Then I enter the following syntax in HTML (one of three things I can do in HTML) with the < and > replaced by [ and ] so you can see it after I post.
[a href="http://www.twoplustwo.com/cgi-bin/mediumholdem.pl?read=15683"]Link To Mason Hand To Talk About On the Medium Limit Forum[/a].
It should look and work like this:
Link To Mason Hand To Talk About On the Medium Limit Forum.
You can also use your right mouse button to click over a message body and select "View Source". You get a test file with the raw HTML code, where my message is surrounded by code 2+2 provides. In doing this you can reverse engineer almost anything.
Regards,
Rick
,.,.,.
You are a foreign policy ignoramus. The MAD policy has kept the peace. Star Wars doesn't work now, and it didn't work the 1st time the Republicans robbed the country blind with it.
natedogg
that rips the country off blind.........you must uinvest in military companies such as Halliburton.
Aside from the $40 billion spent on missile defense with nothing to show for it, the official rationale for NMD is phony. It has nothing to do with "defense" -- defense from whom? -- but represents further abandonment of nuclear deterrence in favor of "counterforce" or nuclear war-winning ability, enabled by a web of technological advancements -- missiles accurate enough to hit silos and quieter submarines -- designed to let the United States to use nuclear weapons with impunity. The effort is a soft-sell version of the scary days when the Casper Weinberger, beloved perjurer of the Clinton-hating right, overtly acknowledged that this is what the U.S. was trying to do. The reaction then amounted to widespread horror.
Inspired by lessons learned, the current propaganda -- typified by the Will piece that Rick cites -- ignores the traditional terms of the debate and pretends that NMD opponents object only to the perfectability and costs and of the technology, coupling it with a straight-faced plea for nuclear aggrandizement made possible by the absence of any power to deter us. E.g., "Opponents of missile defense are going to need arguments better than ‘it won't (fully, perfectly) work' or that this technologically sophisticated undertaking will reignite the rivalry with a Russian military that cannot pay its officers or cope with Chechens primarily using only weapons they can carry." This from someone who's devoted most of a career arguing that the U.S. needed ever more nukes only because the communists forced the issue. As it becomes more obvious, in the coming years you're going to see even less subtle arguments in favor of making a defenseless world cower in terror. Will is right in one respect, however. Since it is not possible for anyone in this country to receive widespread attention if they impugn U.S. motives, and since acccusing the U.S. of trying to build a first strike system inherenty does that, he's right that the opponents of NMD have been forced to argue technical issues such as cost and efficacy.
American planners and their military cohorts have always hated deterrence. This has nothing to do with the "morality" of holding civilian populations hostage, witness their revulsion at any discussion of doing away with nukes. As they see it, military force serves to accomplish political ends and weapons are the tools of war. The presence of foreign deterrence, however, means that nukes can't be used or even threatened to be used without the substantial risk of nullifying any conceivable advantage to using them. So nukes are "weapons" in name only, and the strategy and tactics for their deployment amounts to pressing a button. This has been a problem ever since the Kennedy administration touted "flexible response" -- limited warfighting, counterinsurgency and "internal security" assistance -- as a more useful means of expanding U.S. power that impotent threats of nuclear war.
The technological solution to the problem is to nullify the ability of other countries to deter the U.S. With such an apparatus in place, the U.S. could then return to the glory days of the nuclear monopoly it enjoyed for a few years in the late 40's.
There's another rationale for NMD that underpins many other aspects of "defense" spending. From the railroads to the semiconductor to the internet, the U.S. government has undertaken to subsidize and develop key technologies and infrastructure before spinning them off for private profit. If you look closely at the Congressional committee hearings on SDI and NMD, you'll see references to the need for substantial R&D spending to keep abreast of European and Japanese satellite, missile and laser technologies, but that the private sector would rather not foot the bill. Enshrouding technological development under a doctrine of military defense better enables it to thrive without having to justify denying more immediate and widespread public demands.
I think it would be highly desirable for us to have it.
I think the Mutually Assured Destruction theory is not what we should base our future on with the primary emerging threat soon to be terrorist groups and rogue nations. Who can really expect such countries as Iraq, or groups like Bin Laden's, to be led by somebody sane enough to not launch missiles carrying nuclear or biological payloads due to fear of retaliation?
I for one would rather live in a world where the U.S. holds most of the cards. I don't like the idea of being vulnerable to attack. I don't think we should choose to live that way if we can reasonably help it. The U.S. is not about to take over other countries today by sheer force but the same cannot be said for certain other countries if they could get away with it.
If military power were more evenly balanced across the world today, we would see MORE wars and attacks, not LESS.
The US has agreed to treaties which ban these devices. This should be a good enough reason not to build them, or am I crazy?
I have 3 problems with a Missle Defense Shield
1. It's not feasible at this time.
2. It is an astronomical amount of money to spend on a gee-whiz wonder system that probably will be unable to to the job.
3. It provides zero defense against the most likely method of nuclear attack.
3 is the big one. If some whacko leader does get ahold of a nuke, he is most likely not going to put it on an ICBM and lob it over. Terrorists don't do it that way. It is far more likely that it is delievered in a "Trojan Horse" style suicide attack, the preferred method of weapon delivery for terrorits.
We should focus our resources on preventing whackos from getting nukes, not on building a paper 'shield' for when they do.
This is a cold-war system spawned in the 1960's when Russia and the US stood toe to toe with spears aimed at each other's chests.
It is not useful for 2001's defense needs.
Spend that money on better training, better equipment and better leadership for today's soldiers. Spend that money on counterintelligence and counterterrorism. Use any means necessary to prevent Hussein from getting ahold of nukes.
But don't spend it on a fairy tale. Make no mistake, a magical "shield" that defends the US from incoming ballistic missles is a fairy tale.
I'd much rather see us put the money and effort into anti-biological weapon systems.
The reason other countries don't want us to build the defense system is very simple.
if we can defend against their nukes, but they can't defend against ours, we can nuke them without fear of retaliation.
Isn't that obvious?
The highlight of my trip was attending the Danny Gans show at the Mirage. Good, clean fun. I had a smil on my face for 90 straight minutes. The guy is an amazing singer/impressionist who can play Garth Brooks for laughs or Billie Holliday for tears. Best 100 clams I ever spent.
The lowlight of my trip was the whole atmosphere at Binions. The place seemed dirtier and smokier than last year. The players were even nastier. And the bad beat I took to knock me out of the 3k event was a close second.
Highlights below:
Pot limit hold'em results were very good. I played mostly 5-5 and 5-10 as they didn't spread a 25-25 game and the 25-50 games looked pretty tough/boring. This was a social trip for me and I wanted to have some fun. I had a couple of big wins late at night and totaled nearly 5k up. The games alternated from very good to very bad, and a more table-selective player could score nicely.
Limit hold'em- played one session of 2-40 in the daytime at the Mirage (first mistake) while I waited for the weekl nlh tournament. Lost 700 and played much worse.
Pot limit omaha- played one session of shot-handed 5-10 and dropped a quick grand, 500 at a time. On the firtst hand I got half over my stack in pre-flop with AsKsAdJc. This monster was taken down by 68TJ no suits when the flop came a seemingly safe 663 with two spades. I rebought and got most of it in on a heads-up pot with holding JJT9 double-suited when the flop came 862, giving me an overpair, flush draw, tilt draw, and a gutshot straight draw. Lost to the same gentleman holding 66-shit-shit and decided plo wasn't my game and sixes weren't my number.
Satellites- Split a couple of single table 5k ($500 buy in)events, taking about 3500 each time. Took a 1k saver in a 3k event. Dropped about 3k without cashing in other entries for a net satellite win of 3.5k.
Stakehorsing- I talked my buddy, Robert into flying out from New York to meet me. Since the satellite entries were high and he is a pretty good horse (with a short bankroll), we went partners on his entries. We each put up half the fee and split the profits (and losses) equally. This worked out well for me as he cashed in 7 of his 15-odd events, including a couple of $1000 buy-ins. The highlight of this was his taking 4.5k (split 3 ways) in his first 10k entry from a table that included David Plastik, Syracuse Chris, Noel Furlong, Jack Keller, O'Neal Longson, and some Costa Rican bracelet holder. He bad beat Noel Furlong in the first big pot and Noel left with a kind word and a smile. That guy is the consumate gentleman. Net profit 4k+.
Tournaments- Busted out about 90th in the 3k plh event despite playing quite well and accumulating a decent stack early. Two horrendous beats sent me prematurely to the rail: 1. All-in preflop with KK against A9o (shortish stack) and 2. All-in on the flop with AsQs with a board of Qc8s3s; I lost to that Noli woman who won the first limit hold'em event. She had KhQh and hit the two-outer the turn. Brutal. (I will post this and other key hands on the tournament forum).
Table Games- Played some craps with Robert and TJ and had bad results, losing more than I care to admit publicly. I think TJ jinxed me. Also played 3 hands of blackjack for a buck each and lost them all, including a double down with a ten against the dealer's 6. Sixes got me again.
Ponies- Didn't cash a winner in the Derby despite tossing out the chalk and playing nearly every other horse in the race. Recouped some losses in the 9th race at Churchill with a hot tip from New York.
Sports Bets- Dropped a half grand betting against Pedro. As a rule of thumb, I'll take 2-1 in any regular season baseball game every time. Lost by a run after the A's fell behind early and made a late rally that fell short.
Overall, I booked a nice win after some pretty heavy travel and dining expenses. I didn't run into any 2+2er's other than Tommy Angelo. I did hear Oz get paged several times, but never saw him at the phone. My best celebrity encounter was seeing Ron "the hedgehog" Jeremy at the airport when I arrived. He would fit right in at Binion's.
or bad beats...great post,enjoyed it...gl
I'm thinking about moving to vegas to work as a poker dealer. Does anyone know if they have a demand for poker dealers or is it a once in a while proposition?
Vegas always needs good dealers. I don't know exactly how big the demand is, but I see a lot of turnover in most of the rooms I play in.
Good Luck
Howard
maby this has something to do with me being from the south, but out in vegas playing at limits of 8-16 and lower I noticed that the average tip per hand was 25 or 50 cents, so you definately need to get good quickly if you want to make any money. just my two cents worth
In the 8-16 hold'em game I played in last night (Regent), the smallest tip I saw was $1. In the 10-20 stud game I played in last night (Mirage), the biggest tip I saw was $1. Played in both games for several hours.
In the 1-5 stud and 2-4 hold'em games that my wife plays in, the average tip she sees going to the dealer is $1
So I guess you could say the average tip depends on where you end up working and who ends up sitting at your table.
Good Luck
Howard
And last time I was in LV (Bellagio, a few weeks ago) a dealer in our 75-150 game (1.00 tip nearly every hand, 2-5.00 in big pots) who just came from the humongous 10,000-20,000 game told us that the average/smallest/biggest tip there was ... zero. She said she'd rather deal in the blue chip games where she was guaranteed 0.50 a hand.
So it all depends!
RFL.
The Hold'em wars still continue to this day, this reporter can't remember what started the wars so many long years ago. However, the best guess might be it was a war for convertible chips, the kind that can be exchanged for cash. The enlistment ranks continue to grow and the battle lines are drawn daily. Many come to fight the good fight some come to battle for the sheer glory of being in the action. Most enlistments join the battles in the low limit ranks where they become leaders of the two random cards. Not much is expected of the new enlistments. They only have limited ammunition, and when it runs out they must report back to headquarters for more training and to replenish their ammunition.
Like any training program the new enlistments will advance their careers in battle when they embrace the training. Some never do improve, for them the hand to hand contact fighting in the lower limits is all they ever wanted. They do not want to take the risks associated with fighting at the higher limits. They have heard of the mighty Generals that fight in the higher limits. Those who take to the training and improve their skills begin to move up thru the ranks. Promotions are received when the new enlistments begin to win successive battles.
The key words for promotions are, successive wins. Some enlistments just want to be gorilla fighters. They enter a battle with brave bravado, firing ammunition into the battle like a machine gun. They do not care which two random cards they will fight with, they just love the glory of the battle. They always raise the fight to a new level. They have glorious wins followed by long periods of defeat, but they are always feared by the weaker players involved the battle for the convertible chips. The gorilla fighters move to the higher limits quickly.
Becoming a Hold'em General of two random cards requires training, education, and experience. Rarely will you see a General fight with two inferior random cards. No General in his right mind would send a troubled hand into battle from early position. He doesn't waste ammunition with two random cards who tell him they can get the nut flush, from early position. When the second member of the two man team is so dependent on the first man. Wise Generals know both members of the two card team must have the expected ability to fight and win independently of their partner.
Hold'em Generals are a rare breed, they have patience, to wait for the correct two random warriors. They understand how to read the fighting style of their opponents. The Generals of the Hold'em Wars are the convertible chip leaders, they win most of their battles and have a clear understanding of how to get out of the battle with the least damage to their forces. What is your rank in the Hold'em Wars?
SPM, ...still an enlisted man myself, hoping to be accepted to officer candidate school someday...
Permanent Latrine Officer reporting sir.
I'm planning on visiting Foxwoods for the first time in a few weeks and was wondering about the quality of the games there. I am looking to play low limit hold 'em up to 5-10 (though preferably 3-6 or 4-8). How are these games, what is the wait like to play, are the games better at certain times? Also, how are the tournaments, and when do they run? Any information about the hotel quality and other variables also appreciated.
Jeff
For tourney schedule, go to foxwoods.com or cardplayer.com. The tourneys are all very good. You get lots of play for your money, and the competition is rather weak.
The live games aren't as good. The competition is tougher, though still very beatable at the level you're interested in. There are almost always HE games going at the 3-6 or 4-8, 5-10 w/kill, and 10-20 w/half-kill levels. There are lots more stud games to choose from, so if you play stud and want to pick the best games, you definitely need to look at that side of the room.
The hotels at FW are all nice. Two Trees is cheapest, and preferred by many. You have to walk a few hundred yards outside to get to it (or take the free bus). Offsite hotels are nearby, and not so nearby. They will be available at MUCH lower rates. If you have a car, you'll save a lot by staying at some budget motel 5-10 miles away and driving in.
If you're there on a Tuesday night, say hi to the guy with the fossils on the table in front of him. It will very likely be me.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
is there somewhere on the net where up dates of the ONGOING trnmnts are posted???? Jim
I doubt there's someone there with a laptop uploading results to the web. If that's what you mean.
Something that's been bothering me for quite a while is the fact that floorman tipping is very prevalent at the LA cardrooms. Every time I get a bad ruling now I wonder if there was bias from the floorman.
Here's a mild situation where the floorman acted inappropriately in my opinion and recieved a tip for his efforts. A bad player who had gone on a rush in my 20-40 game had 3 racks of yellow in front of him and about 2k cash. He wanted to put the cash in his wallet and said he was 2k behind. Another bad player objected and the floorman was called. The floorman ruled that he could put the money in his wallet. The bad player with all the money then left the game and tipped the floorman a yellow before he went to cash out.
One of the major responsiblities of the floormen is to make rulings on games and ensure that the rules of the game are enforced fairly and impartially. However, when they start recieving tips it undermines this effort or at the minimum it creates the impression that it does so.
To conclude, the cardrooms should pay the floormen a decent wage and forbid them from accepting tips. Those who continue to do so should be fired.
I agree with you completely....
But until they do this I tip all floor men that will accept them... If you can't beat'em join 'em
Just my opinion
just another egg
What surprises me is that none of the 2+2 authors have ever made any comments about this (that I have read). Why all this concern about tournaments when this is even more obvious? If I were a novice and I saw tipping and a questionable ruling early on I'd wonder about the integrity of the games.
As for me, I don't tip floormen simply because it encourages something that I think is wrong.
too bad but its the real world. having tipping always lets personal feelings in decisions. many big cardrooms have no tipping above the dealer level and i like that, but id like no tipping at all so people are not judged by how much money they give to you. but then again i dont like anyone that judges me by what i give them.
i have a nice set of clay chips, but some of them have become sticky. how does one clean chips?
thanks.
soap and water
After you clean them with soap and water you will be and expert chip cleaner. I recomend you contact Harrah's in East Chicago, IN. They have the dirtiest chips I have ever seen in my poker playing career.
SPM,...you may use this post in your approach to Harrah's...
Take a look at http://www.ccgtcc.com/cleaning.htm.
i'm thinking of ordering brunson's super system and was hoping it has omama hi/lo 8 or better.
x
At the "Hold'em Training Grounds," new enlistments learn the game of Texas Hold'em. The basic rules of the game are explained and the privates are turned over to their Drill Instructors (DI). The DI's begin their initial training, with an salty indoctrination commentary. "You all look like a bunch of average nobody's, thinking any two cards can win. We'll repeat after me, BIG CARDS BEAT LITTLE CARDS AND MOST PLAYERS AIN'T BLUFFING. Now say it again. Louder, I said louder the DI insisted repeatedly. After hours of repeating the DI's jingle all the privates voice boxes reached fatigue, but their brains had been imprinted with the knowledge of basic strategy.
The next day the excitement was in the air, today they would get their first two cards. They knew basic strategy and were prepared to make the call or raise. "Get your gambling behinds in the seats at the table. Pay attention to what I say, your bank roll depends on it!" began the DI. "The person in the Dealer Uniform is the delivery messenger. You do not shoot the messenger! You do not fire your cards at the messenger at high speeds! You do not blame the messenger or put pins in dolls that look like the messenger! Do you read me!" yelled the DI, "Sir, Yes Sir!" Replied the Trainees. But, they didn't hear him they were in anticipation mode. They wanted the power to make the decision to call or raise.
"Today you will be taught the first line of defense," said the DI as he paced across the playing table. "The word call and raise are not part of to days training. You will be given two cards. YOU WILL NOT LOOK AT THE CARDS!" The DI screamed. Confusion immediately set in amongst the trainees. Not look at the cards, is that what they mean by blinds, some thought to themselves. "Should you be to stupid to understand and decide to look at the two cards, I will personally send you to the Battalion Proctologist, it will take him about two hours, to get my boot out of your behind! Do you understand?" the DI enquired. "Sir, Yes Sir! replied the Hold'em Troops.
The cards were dealt and the tension mounted as the players waited for the DI's next order. "RELEASE!" snapped the DI. All but one hand went into the muck. The Di looked at the privates two cards still in his hand. The others were positive this private was about to be abused. What are you holding private, I said RELEASE, the DI snapped again. The Private snapped to attention and replied Sir, I'm the Big Blind, Sir. There was a long moment of silence and the DI said, excellent you are now a Private First Class.
The defense class was an endless monotonist seven weeks of releasing every two cards but the big blind. The message was clear to fight in the battle you must embrace the release first. The ranks began to thin, and transfer requests to the Gorilla Fighting Unit going to the front lines was increasing. There's a big drop out rate at the Hold'em Training Grounds.
SPM,...you ever notice how a General releases his hands...
SPM,
You've out done yourself. Unfortunately your DI is performing incorrect "Holdem Basic Training". "The message was clear to fight in the battle you must embrace the release first." The message was clear. Clearly wrong!
The correct message is "To win in battle you must first understand the situation". Please demote the DI and send him to the front lines and get someone competent in there. That's no way to run an army!
Vince
SPM,
Great Job! I thought I was reading “Short-Timers” by Gustav Hasford again. Now write your book!
Regards,
Rick
Recent Champ Scotty N. used alittle verbal bantering back at poor Phil Hellmouth. If memory serves me right Phil was the recipiate of another players verbal barage at the end of a hand in another recent final table at this years WSOP. Author Andy came to friend Phils rescue both times.
I wish i had a friend who would make what was once wrong right with a few lines of writing.
Or maybe this is the time Phildo can get a good look at what a fool looks like when he treats others without respect and dignity.
just my 2cents
went fishing on the Tuolomne on Saturday. original plan was to hike to a remote stretch of river but I couldn't find the trailhead. no problem, I had a plan B. arrived at river and the flow was very high but still fishable. saw two other guys fishing and they said they caught 7 on dries and nymphs. I decide to explore and hike downstream. this did not work out. the Tuolomne is in a very steep canyon and the trail is mostly about 400 ft. above the water. I hiked for an hour and didn't get anywhere near the water. bushwhacking down to the river was not a pleasant alternative because of mass amounts of poison oak and really, really steep hillside. There was potential for ugly weather so I turned back. finally started fishing and the wind started blowing. I got skunked (well I did catch a poison oak rash) but had nice time hanging out in the woods. I will attack this river again when the flows are lower. following the river bank and wading should be more of an option when the water is lower.
i do that all the time also. last year i flew my plane into troy airstrip and hiked cown to the river instead of walking around the road way. after about an hour of getting scraped by the bushes and sweating like vince lepore with two pair i gave up and went home. watch for rattlers there as they like it in the rocks but those little snakes dont bother people often. we are getting hot dry weather for good fishing but my wrist still aint better so im a coach potato.
x
boris,
Glad I wasn't the only one who got skunked this weekend. I spent a few hours Saturday on the Yakima outside Cle Elum, WA. Was there with my girlfriend for a getaway, but she was happy to learn how to fish so we biked down a nice trail and found the area where the Cle Elum and Yakima come together. The water was pretty fast so we hiked upriver on the Yakima for a bit. Threw mostly woolybuggers and some terrestrials so she would get casting down with a little weight on the line. Despite the Yakima's reputation, we did not even see a fish all afternoon. Still, it was sunny and warm and I was glad to see my lady embrace the sport. When she also bellied up to the 4-8 table on the way home and booked a small win, I was overjoyed.
Its going to be a great summer.
KJS
Lets be honest with ourselves KJS. We both know that if you had a car you would not take your girlfriend fishing. Hehehe.
seriously though, glad you and your chica had a good time. tried to teach an ex how to fly fish one time. It was a total disaster. To this day I don't know what I did wrong. I was patient, supportive, helpful, all the right things. but the more frustrated she got with the casting the more it was my fault. holy smokes! I didn't even fight back on this one as it was obviously not going to help matters. just glad she didn't break my rod (no jokes please).
one more thing, I've always found that smaller dry flies are easier to cast than those big heavy nymphs. must be a matter of style. I can't fish a nymph to save my life. I'd better start learning though cuz it looks to be the best fish catching method here in Cali.
boris,
Very funny!
I semi-agree on the nymphs. I have trouble getting a nice long cast out with a tiny dry. I am still very much a beginner myself. Problem on Saturday was that it was pretty windy and I thought a small dry would cause her line to just fly around aimlessly. I did put on a grasshopper for a bit so she could see what dry fly fishing was like.
Luckily I have found a really cool Russian immigrant couple who rents 8 or 9 year old working cars for 20 bucks a day. As long as there is some hiking and camping involved, I think my lady is game for more fishing.
KJS
x
x
Nothing like a day on the river. Enjoy the reports.
My wife will go fishing with me but no chance to get her near a poker table.
Good Luck.
I enjoy the reports. Glad your getting out.
I've been skunked last couple times out.
Waters been high here also.
Daughter #1 graduates 6/2(high school). Have inlaws for a couple of weeks. I'm takeing a week off. The river looks mighty appealing. That is if my wife don't box my ears. I only painted 60% of the house last year. Guys got his priorities.
Good Luck.
"I only painted 60% of the house last year"
Only?! IMO 60% is darn good.
I'll take you up on the nymphing lesson.
mason wants me to write another article soon for the mags. any body"s out there have a good idea for me. parameters:
something there is a chance i might know something about
easy to do with little research
must be what mason wants or i might have to spend an hour convincing him its good
not entirely about poker just a good relationship, as i dont want to write straight poker stuff.
How about balancing your life as a pro by maintaining your interests outside the casino?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
something there is a chance i might know something about=fishing to poker
easy to do with little research=you've already done it
must be what mason wants or i might have to spend an hour convincing him its good=there's fish in poker and he likes them
not entirely about poker just a good relationship, as i dont want to write straight poker stuff.=see above
paul
ray,
I say combine Greg and Paul's ideas into a great article on fishing and poker and their similarities. I did both this weekend and found that they both demand good concentration, patience and an ability to read the flows of the river (or game).
KJS
In the poker vein - how about a detailed account of a game within a game, in which you had a single tough opponent, while the other players were in the background. A description of the ongoing game texture, the back and forth, figuring him out and how you beat him would be an interesting change from the usual single hand narratives.
Or, I really like your Montana wildlife stories.
How about your views of the interrelationship of poker and the stock market?
Danny
* The Zee Report
* Fish & Chips
* The bobber went down but I missed the tell...
* ...setting the hook when you got the nuts...
* ...another fish that got away...
Should you continue to have writers block please use these meger thoughts at your own risk.
SPM,...new article, cool...
Zee Man,
I have the answer! Write about the old vs the new. Get Fossilman to either co-author or consult with the subject matter. If you two can't figure out what I'm talking about and why it would be of interest well then the hell with ya. Find your own story line.
Who loves ya baby?
Vince.
its been done before but everyone likes to read stories about playing big bet poker in the old days. TJ Cloutier can spin a good yarn but I don't know how much to believe.
please don't write about wildlife and and what not in ol' Montana.
Ray--
I was going to suggest the fishing-poker thing but I see many of my esteemed posters have beat me to the punch. Too, a piece like this should prove to be a class bitch to actually write, although it does sound easy enough.
So, I guess I'll recommend something anecdotal-- perhaps a piece about your favorite game, and a few hands that illustrate why you like that game so much. Let's face it, Ray-- you're an enigma. We all have something of a handle on David and Mason (for instance, we know that David hates to type and that Mason checks his overpairs too much on the flop) but you are shrouded in mystery. Who is this Zee? We ask ourselves. We simply MUST know more. Yet as we poke and prod you for personal tidbits, you remain tantalizingly evasive.
So this is your chance, Herr Zee, to show the greater poker playing world who you are and what you stand for. Spit out a couple hands. Tell us about the time you four bet Chip Reese on sixth with rolled up fives, or the time you pushed in 20 grand against Jack Strauss with four to a flush on the turn... In short, give us your best. Think Phil Hellmuth's "Hand of the Week", although think on a larger scale than that damnable Phil. Be epic. Be brave. Show the world just how you put the "Ray" into "Raise".
Good luck.
Guy
Cheating. I was at the Bike talking to a Vegas pro in the mid 80's when he pointed you out. You looked the games over and left. I asked why and he said you were real careful, something to do about cheating. I've always wondered about that.
those pieces are pretty short usually. why not just write down an 'amusing anecdotes' or two. stories people like to hear, and just write them down.
brad
Why don't you write about yourself?
Write about your friend who had his cash confiscated and had to fight an uphill legal battle. More Americans should be aware of how far their government has strayed from its mission statement.
JG
Ray, write some stories about your past. You have had a very colorful life and I know that you have some interesting tales to tell. For example, you could tell the story about how a raccoon chased you up a tree and you had to eat pine nuts and bark for three days because some bears had camped out below and you couldn't get down. Or how about the time you were cleaning out the outhouse, and you were scrubbing out one of the stalls when you leaned over too far and fell into the hole. Wife didn't let you into the house for a week if I recall. Finally, write about the time at the WSOP when you and Dan Harrington got drunk and were running around naked on the 14th floor trying to get girls but ended up locking yourselves out of your room and had to get security to let you back in. I heard Dan was rolling around on the floor yelling and screaming about communists or something. Man, you got a million of em.
z
tof
The sound of reveille at the Hold'em Training Grounds is a litany of DI questions and Trainee's answering as a group. "What is basic strategy for Texas Hold'em," growled the DI, "Sir, Big cards beat little cards and most people ain't bluffing, Sir!" replied the Trainee's in unison. "What is the first line of defense," barked the DI, "Sir, Release, Sir!" "I can't hear you," cried the DI, "Sir Release, Sir," they repeated, with an extra notch of volume. This litany of repeating questions, provides the mind with a true alignment with the stars. In other words, they brain wash them.
Eight weeks of intense training now complete, today they would finally learn the first rule of engagement. Their endless lesson of how to release for the past eight weeks found the ranks losing trainees to the Gorilla Fighting Unit, going to the front lines. Some players want to learn it the hard way, so the Gorilla Fighting Unit welcomes them with open arms. They need recruits, because their unit has the highest percentage of busting out a player's bank roll in short order. For more information on this active fighting unit call 1-800-School of Hard Nocks.
They marched into the poker room and the DI gave the order to take a seat. "Today, you will learn the first rule of engagement, Patience." the DI sounded off. "What is the first rule of engagement," the DI asked them again. Sir, Patience Sir. "Again!" the DI yelled, and they repeated again and again, "Sir, Patience, Sir." The cards were dealt and each hold'em trainee wanted to look at the two hole cards, but they had seen the brutality of the DI and dared not. "What is the first rule of engagement! The DI demanded, they replied, "Sir, Patience Sir!" REALEASE! Said the DI and nine players released their hands and one held his. And confusion surrounded the troops. Patience, the RELEASE! They had just completed eight weeks of releases, and now when they thought it was time to play a hand again release, release, release...
The troops were not happy at the end of the day, and the line to join the Gorilla Fighting Unit, was again very long. Those that remained wondered how many more releases till they finally get to play a hand.
SPM,...in a life time of releases eight weeks is no time at all...
"The troops were not happy at the end of the day, and the line to join the Gorilla Fighting Unit, was again very long."
I don't blame them. This dumb DI taught them to release then be patient. So now we have these poor guys waiting around so they can release a hand. Gee, this is really a fun game, I'm sure they are gonna love playing poker when this guy is done with them. Oh I get it Poker is like war and staying alive is of primary concer. Sounds like you are teaching a bit of tournament strategy. Yeah that must be it. Of course it may be better to teach them how to play poker fist but maybe not.
Vince
I was wondering , since I dont do business with any establishment that is no smoking when a smoking option is available.. period. can one still smoke in european card rooms? canadian ones? etc... as it seems my dream of moving to vegas in 5 years is not going to work out for this reason, especally if the belagio increses its business as some here predict because that will cause an increse in the number of no smoking in all the poker rooms in vegas
in more ways than one.
....a pothead?? What a surprise if you are.
What a surprise if you are a opiate junkie, or perhaps just a dispenser of controlled substances.....
. . . I don't find it in me to confide such things to you, Wogga! Strange, I know, but there you have it.
Perhaps when I drop by M-ville, I will.
I think its only in the USA (western) that people even consider not smoking. Most places in Europe are full of smoke and people will smoke while they are eating.
Give them another ten years or so.
I recall reading a newspaper article over 10 years ago in which the reporter was doing a man in the street interview regarding the French government's intention to mandate that restaurants provide a nonsmoking section.
One Frenchman's reply: "They can't do that. This is a free county, it's not America."
I wish you well with your dreams...and hope you live to see them (cough, cough, hack, hack).
I have been debating on where to go to play poker for a few weeks. I was wondering
1) which city has more 3-6, 4-8, and 5-10 holdem games
2) out of these limits, what is the rake in each city, and is it possible for a very good player to beat the game for 1 big bet an hour after the rake (the reason I ask is because most low limit games have enourmous size rakes).
3) which city has the most 10-20 and 20-40 holdem games
4) and, which city has the EASIEST 10-20 and 20-40 holdem games
Thanks in advance for responses.
I think rake is about the same, but you will find far more games in Tunica (all size). if you like omaha, take a day off from Tunica and drive hour or so to Silver Star on reservation north of Philadelphia, Miss. good luck, Jim ON week ends probably find loose p/l & lmt game.
in my experience you will find better action and more game selection in tunica. also since you will be travelling the accomidations in tunica are somewhat better within the casinos themselves, as well as cheeper. last time I was at the grand biloxi on a weekend the poker room rate was over 100$ while in tunica at the grand the rate was about 40$
For those interested Donna Harris just informed me that The Mirage Poker Room is going non-smoking on June 1, 2001. This is great news for poker.
Seeing how I just got back from playing at the Mirage (with chain smokers on both sides of me), this is great news in deed.
They have some great games in that room and I'm looking forward to spending most of my summer there.
Thanks Mason for the info. Now I don't have to worry about leaving the card room smelling like smoke!
Kudos to Donna
Good Lungs
Howard
Are you sure the games will still be great after the hazey-brained chain smokers have left?
Cold calling a raise with T-8 off suit, calling a river bet with 88 (with a board of A,Q,J,4,2), and getting into a raising war on the flop with just middle pair are a few of the plays made by non-smokers in the 6-12 game at the Mrage last night.
Any other questions Nick? :-)
Good Luck
Howard
.
$$$
Halleluiah!
I think there's a lot of wishful thinking that a smoking ban won't hurt poker games. It seems apparent to me that if a person who is addicted to smoking is prevented from smoking in a poker room, then he will not come there any more. Or to put it more generally, if a hundred chain smokers are told they can no longer smoke in the poker room, some portion of them will continue to smoke - somewhere else.
Probably some new non-smoking players will find their way into the poker room who would not have if smokers were there, but is this number going to be greater than whatever new SMOKING players would have been introduced?
I cannot stand sitting next to smokers either. And in fact it somewhat deters my own level of participation. But these chain smokers are the wildest, and are great contributors to the pots.
The bottom line on smoking is this: smokers will feed the greater addiction. When a smoker drives 30 miles to play poker that is the greater addiction. Smokers attend plays, got to movies, and go out to dinner in non-smoking environments where they must go without a smoke (unless they take a break) for several hours. It certainly makes sense that they can also go several hours playing poker without having to light up a smoke. They can smoke at home or in the car and if need be take a break to go puff on a butt. But be assured that their main "addiction" is to gamble, and that is the one they will feed.
Non smoking poker rooms is truly a great thing for this country. I predict that within one year every cardroom in the country will follow suit. It only makes sense.
no they will simply walk over to the black jack table and gamble while they smoke, unless the health nazis get to that too
All of a sudden I get the above script error everytime I open a page here. If I clikck on it it goes away, but it's an irritant. What gives?
I get that too at home on AOL!!! Line 186
paul
Now I'm getting it at work too so it must have to do with this SITE!!!!
paul
You guys might enjoy an article on poker and the role of math and modern poker theory in the WSOP in the LA Times. Included are references to 2+2 publications and a quote from David Sklansky.
Link To Los Angeles Times Poker Article
Regards,
Rick
Great article although there are some inaccuracies. The article is a must for your wife, girlfriend, etc. who think poker players are nothing but a bunch of degenerate gamblers.
Bruce
I have an idea that the forum could benefit from.
Make it so that some posters are registered. When they post, their names are in boldface or otherwise stand out from the rest.
In order to become officially registered, a potential candidate would have to submit tax returns or other proof that they actually do indeed win at poker - say a minimum of 30K dollars per year.
I am afraid that many of the posters here are posers who are not successful, winning players at all. Every time they post disinformation to the masses, the masses suffer. Come to think of it, that might not be a bad thing - the games will stay easy.
But if one had to prove that they earn a substantial amount playing, then less experienced players would take the advice of a non registered player with a grain of salt.
For example, people might not confuse the NUMBER of a persons postings with the quality. For example, Vince's amateuristic rantings about things he doesn't know anything about would be more easily passed over by the novices, and they could skip directly to the posts of Mason, Abdul, Jim, etc.
Just a suggestion.
Please this is the second post I have read wanting tax returns posted. Let me be the first to admit I never won a dime gambling. I play for the recreation, I never made a dime Big Brother honest.
You said;
For example, Vince's amateuristic rantings about things he doesn't know anything about would be more easily passed over by the novices, and they could skip directly to the posts of Mason, Abdul, Jim, etc.
I have a feeling Mason, Abdul, & Jim spend enough of their time helping us weak players.
I am not happy about your comments about Vince either. Some of us fear him, and we like it that way.
SPM,...just some thoughts...
I find it a challenge to find quality. So what if I may not be bright enough to differentiate.
Who's going to want to give someone else access to their tax returns? If they did, why couldn't they fake them? It wouldn't even be a crime, as long as you sent in honest returns to the IRS.
Vince would pass your test, as I'm pretty sure he wins over 30K a year on poker. Heck, he just won 20K a few weeks ago at Foxwoods.
If 2+2 were ever to bother with something like this, it would be easier and more accurate for them to simply evaluate the advice a poster has presented previously, and promote those giving the best advice to boldface status.
Besides, I've known some winning players who can't give advice worth a damn. They play well, but they couldn't teach anyone else to even play a mediocre game.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I don't think it is too hard to judge who has something to say and who doesn't, and you learn pretty quickly who to ignore. I don't think the effort is necessary.
J.
Its very true that some players can see all the angles like Bobby Fischer plays chess, but can't teach one bit. I myself find it much easier to evaluate a hand during play than to evaluate a hand someone else has posted.
Also, as Jim pointed out, its very easy to figure out who's posts not to read. IMO.
nt
.
This is a lousy idea.
I'm not a winning player. I have yet to win money playing poker. My biggest score every was slightly over two racks. My biggest no limit score was about 1.5 times the buy-in. My total poker losses are gigantic. I once lost 800 in a session of 6-12. I lost $500 in a session of 5-10 online. I am a losing player.
However, I can still tell you with authority NOT to limp with KJo UTG in a typical game. I can tell you with 100% certainty that you cannot underrate the importance of position in no limit. I'd rather play 78o on the button that AKo in the blinds. Do NOT raise for the a free card when out of position.
I don't think I need to "register" with anyone or anything to be able to express these opinions. And in fact, if you read something that makes sense, use it. It doesn't matter if the poster makes 30k a year or not.
natedogg
What a 6-12 session.
And I can relate, since I had the exact same thing happen to me last winter. 800$ in something like 9 hrs. I pocketed my last 40$ and headed to the door, only to discover... that I'd locked my keys inside the car. What to do? I'm 140 miles away from home, can't in my goddamned truck, I'm stuck like a pig.. So, I go to the ATM and pull out 200$ from checking and sit back down. In the next 6 hrs. I get it all back plus 16$, then blow back about 100$ before deciding to cut my losses.
What a night. And I'm not posting this to toot my own horn; after all, I am the guy who once blew 885$ in a 3-5 spread limit game.
"For example, Vince's amateuristic rantings about things he doesn't know anything about would be more easily passed"
I sure hope everyone listens to this recommendation. Especially the guy with the original idea. Let's see now, I have posted on this forum for over 2 years. Except for a few childish interludes I have always placed my name on my posts. I will continue to do so. Pro should have no trouble avoiding them. In fact I do not welcome him reading my posts. He will be in good company. Badger, Gary Carson, Tom Wiedeman, all the biggies don't read any of mine anymore. So keep your mouse off the Vince Lepore posts, Pro. Go ahead make my forum.
BTW - Pro is not Poker Vetran. Poker Vetran has style.
vince
Hello everybody. i'm looking to plan a weekend stay in Atlantic City, and I was wondering what people would recommend for the best poker games, and the best casino to stay at. All opinions welcome. Thanks,
-jason
Biggest variety and # tables are 1) Taj 2) Tropicana
Trop also allows you to have meals (which you can earn with comp points for hourly play) at the tables, a nice benefit
I like the Trop for weekends. Taj is good but too crowded and cluttered on weekends, but they have more variety of higher limit games (10/20 and up). Trop has better control of games (i.e. better floor prople and dealers ususlly IMO). Both places offer comps for food and rooms, but you will have to accumulate the comps by playing. Trop has special room rate offers with 4 or 5 hrs of poker time per day.
Both are easy to get to. Trop is more "homey". Taj can be a zoo at times-very glitzy and noisy.
Games are about the same difficulty; you know, visitors (like you) and the usual suspects and bottom feeders. Both places are safe and clean. Trop has tournaments daily.
Try both. Stay and play at the Trop then take a jitney (15 minutes or less) to the Taj. Cost $1.50
I second Ratso's comments... and in this weather, unless you're carrying big cash, you can walk from one to another (about 15 blocks?)... helping clear your head between games.
Also, if you want to play the casino games at all (off of your huge poker winnings), the limits and crowd are a bit lower at the Trop.
thanks for the info guys. guess i'll be trying to stay at the Trop :) 4 or 5 hours a day = no problem hehe. i really was hoping to hit like a tourney each day and then live action for a few hours. sounds like the Trop will be where i make my trip. Thanks again :)
-jason
as in Canada?
May be up there for a few days at the end of May. Any suggestions/recommendations for places to play?
Well, I must say I'm disappointed in y'all....
I got an answer to this from Poker Pages, but not here...
For those that are wondering.. only one casino/public cardroom exists in Southeastern Canada (Casino Rama)... and it's over 200 miles from Ottawa (it's somewhat close to Toronto...)
in case anyone else checks archives
Here's an article about some state department interactions with China on this issue:
You guys are amazing. So many thoughtful responses that really gave me something to think about. Thanks for your responses.
natedogg
You are not amazing. I knew amazing, and Natedogg you are not it.
An interesting article.
"Strategic Balance"...the less strategic balance we have with totalitarian regimes such as China, the better, IMO. When their hard-line government has passed on and they open up their society, improve their human rights policies and actions, and give up on totalitarianism/communism then the concepts of strategic balance or even strategic partnership with China will make much more sense.
Just my opinion.
Well, when the USA stops training right wing death squads in Fort Benning Georgia that then go back home to Burma, El Salvador, Guatemala, and numerous other third world countries, and it stops promoting genocidal murder as in Operation Condor, then ostriches like you may have a legitimate argument. Until then, if there is a god in heaven, then he condemns your hypochrisy.
I don't believe you can correctly call me hypocritical because I am not condoning such U.S. activities. I am merely pointing out some major differences between the governments of both the U.S. and China. I don't believe the U.S. would try to conquer China through military means but if our respective military powers were reversed and China held the power I think the chances would be quite high that you and I would be "re-educated" before long (if we even survived the war). The same would have held true IMO if the former USSR had ever held a huge advantage over the U.S.A.
I am not trying to say the U.S. is perfect, but in China right now there are special police forces monitoring the Internet for signs of dissidence and free speech in China is not what it is here. You actually could be at serious risk if you were Chinese and living in China and you just posted something on a forum of a nature critical of the government. What do you think Tiananmen Square was all about anyway, and are you aware that the Chinese government became more repressive after that, not less? Again, I am not defending certain past U.S. foreign policies or actions, but there is a world of difference between the degree of freedom we enjoy and the iron fist of the Chinese government which it uses quite liberally against its own people. Besides, IMO the old guard Chinese hard-liners who are in power probably would by comparison make Bush look like a liberal, if that is possible. Trust 'em as far as you can throw 'em, I say (the current Chinese Government leaders)...and when China is finally no longer a totalitarian state, then some meaningful strategic balance might be a good topic for discussion...or even strategic partnership.
EXCELLENT response M.
I don't bother responding to people like this. He's crazy or pretending to be crazy.
While there is plenty to criticize about our own society and government, there is simply no comparison between the ill doings of the US government and those of China in the current era.
natedogg
There is a world of difference between the freedom that American citizens enjoy, and the fascist repression the USA promotes in third world countries. US Imperialism, my friend, is responsible for more deaths and torture in the last 20 years alone than the Communist Chinese government has perpetrated on its own people, or Tibet for that matter, in 50 years. The USA's foreign policy since the Dulles' brothers overthrew the Guatemalan government in the 1950's(=United Fruit, Allen Dulles= DCI of CIA, the Dulles' brothers owned United Fruit(present day Chiquita Banana)) has been one of freedom for us, slavery for you.
What this argument has to do with whether we should allow a totalitarian government to achieve any semblance of military parity with us is beyond me. When China has free elections, non state-controlled news services, allows its citizens freedom of speech and does not arrest and imprison dissidents--in short, when it becomes a democracy--then there might be something to talk about in this regard.
By the way I doubt your assertion is even remotely true. Chairman Mao Zedong slaughtered many millions of his own people. Prison labor camps had annual death rates of 5-10%. A horrific man-made famine in China caused an estimated 30 million deaths in China from 1959-1963. Before that 5 million died from starvation. When Deng Xiaoping took power he exposed some of Mao's crimes to the world. During Mao's Cultural Revolution about 1 million Party members and intellectuals were killed, many by execution during Mao's purges. Some died in prison camps. However Mao's killing actually declined during the Cultural Revolution. Even after Mao, under Deng Xiaoping, some 2,000 to 3,000-- and possibly as many as 12,000--protesters may have been killed in 1989, the year of Tiananmen Square. China still takes and holds political prisoners, and according to the source I am reading, may still execute some political prisoners.
Andrew, it seems you have done a fair bit of reading about U.S. involvement overseas in various parts of the world. As horrific as some of this may be, I don't think it compares in quite the same way to iron-fisted repression and murder of one's own citizens on the scale of many millions of lives. Again, I am not defending all U.S. past actions. I am merely pointing out that allowing a dangerous country such as China the chance to achieve military parity with us would be foolhardy.
Also, you might wish to increase the scope of your curiosity about historical tragedies and horrors commited by governments in this century. The url from which I gleaned the above information is:
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/museum/musframe.htm
I am sure there are many other sources available, and with your interest in such things, who knows what else you might find.
and that doesn't even include the Chinese support of the Khmer Rouge and pol pot, one of the really outstanding dictators of our time.
The US could have sold china grain during the famine of 1959-1964. We wouldn't due to Cold War politics. The US hs sponsored state sponsored genocide in the entire central American region, millions dead in Loas , Cambodia , Vietnam, South Africa, The Congo, Iran (another country where the chickens came home to roost-- the Shah was militarily imposed by the same Dulles' brothers)Iraq( a CIA dictator gone bad,) Nazi Germany (The Hitler project of Brown Brothers Harriman beginning in 1926 sponsored once again by the Dulles brothers, Averill Harriman, and Prescott Bush(they provided over 50% of the loans that built the 3rd Reich), Burma(now Myamar) and the list goes on and on. The truth is that the United States foreign policy has been one of state sponsored fascism dating back to the genocidal murder of indigenous American Indians. The truth hurts. The US death toll over the last 100 years can only be matched by Stalin....
Comparing the death toll from U.S. involvement in other country's affairs with Stalin's wholescale butchery of his own people is, I believe, a serious mismatch--and this doesn't even count activities by the former U.S.S.R. in other countries' affairs which resulted in mass deaths and horrors.. Stalin is generally acknowledged by historians as the greatest mass murderer in history, responsible for over 20 million internal deaths in the U.S.S.R.
Both Stalin and Mao viewed such things as famines as tools which could be used to control the populace.
I'm afraid I really don't see what your point is. This thread started about the merits or lack thereof of missile defense. Are you saying we should allow the Chinese to achieve military parity with us because we have done bad things too, or that we should not attempt to build a shield (if feasible) against possible missile attacks in the future by China or by terrorists or nations like Iraq? Even if our government was worse than the Chinese leadership (which it is not), I don't see how allowing them to catch up or surpass us militarily would be a good thing. If we did so I think we could expect more problems, not less.
It seems like you have done quite a bit of reading about past U.S. misdeeds. If you put the same amount of research into studying past bad deeds by the Communists I think you would be even more horrified. Just a suggestion, since you never seem to mention these things. Your focus appears almost entirely on U.S. bad or questionable activities. Why not tell us what you really think about the slaughters that took place in the USSR and China, and the repression and persecution that exists in China today. And then tell me why we shouldn't be concerned about defending ourselves from attack by such a government or from attack by terrorists or Iraq. Citing U.S. misdeeds has absolutely nothing to do with whether we should be prepared to defend ourselves in an unstable world.
I agree with Wayne. Developing 1st strike capability(which personally I don't believe the missile defense will ever work) is not a peaceful intention. At worst, it simply rips off the tax payer to enrich financial backers. That is what this illegitimate dictator in the Whitehouse is all about. A fascist is a fascist. His grandfather, Prescott, that personally funded the Nazi's starting in 1926 and not stopping until 1943 when his bank was charged with trading with the enemy,would be proud.
The USA already has a high degree of first strike capability, I believe.
Perhaps it is time to also build a high degree of defense as well, if possible, since we do live in such an unstable world and many countries and groups have hostile feelings towards us. Portraying the USA as the potential aggressor (by that I mean attacking and taking over sovereign nations such as China) is not in line with our history nor with what I see as our inclinations. If China wants to squawk that they don't like our strength, let 'em squawk. The USSR squawked until their economic failures forced them to lose the arms race which was a good thing. We are not going to first harm them, but taking steps to ensure that they never harm us is prudent where feasible.
The USA is the only country in the history of the world to use nuclear weapons against an enemy. The USA as previously mentioned, uses covert ops throughout the world to overthrow freely elected governments, and then imposes military dictators trained in torture at the Fort Benning Georgia School of the Americas. They recently changed the name, but not the curriculum. At least in Georgia, rather than Panama(where it used to be located under the the Southern Command) they don't pull live innocent victims off the streets to practice the latest torture methods.
Yes, you are quite correct that the U.S. is the only nation to have used atomic weapons of mass destruction. I am not defending that action and I wonder if the U.S. would have done it had we then known what we know now about the lasting effects of radiation contamination in the soil, birth defects, etc. The moral issue aside, however, let's do note that it was Japan which first massively attacked the U.S., so in a sense the U.S. was using such weapons defensively (although the end result was still horrific). The U.S. has never used such weapons to invade or conquer other countries, and I don't think we can rationally project that the U.S. would be inclined to do so in the future.
The freely elected US President, AL Gore,had the election stolen in a black operation of the US intelligence community in Florida. I suppose that they don't have to shoot anyone to pull off a coup de tete.
One big difference is that, whether true or not, you don't have to fear talking or posting about it. If you lived in China and you claimed something similar about their leaders you would not unlikely likely find yourself arrested and imprisoned if you were Chinese (or deported if you were American).
I am about through arguing with you guys over this. I strongly suspect you are really Andrew posting under different handles and it seems to matter not what the points are; you always have the same argument: the U.S. does bad things. You don't address any other points. That's not what I am debating here, but it is apparently all you, Andrew, wrong and whomever else you may be posting as seem to care about. Maybe instead of entering into threads which are attempting to discuss topics such as missile defense you should just start your own thread: the Big Bad U.S. At least you wouldn't be obscuring the issues that some others are trying to intelligently discuss by repeatedly echoing this refrain when it has nothing to do with the merits or lack thereof of the issues being discussed. Whether the U.S. needs a missile shield and whether a missile shield is feasible or not has little or nothing to do with the points you are trying to make. I'm not saying you shouldn't post and I'm not saying all your ideas are wrong, I'm just wondering why you keep entering threads and changing the subject in this way. I really think you might want to consider a different approach.
P.S. If you really are Wayne not Andrew, fine. I'm sure you'll get acquainted with Andrew soon enough.
Your just a Joe McCarthy that invests in the military industrial complex. Have you had a US death squad kill any children today? No, what is wrong with you! Get those Commie bastards! Shoot all those people. Torture them first. Snort some Bush cocaine while your at it. The military dictator that currently resides in the Whitehouse will lose the next election also, and still not leave the Whitehouse. Democracy was slain by the Florida scam.
I do not advocate aggression; I do believe in wise defense, however.
...wy don't you leave? Go to China or Russia or Cuba or Iraq or over to Africa and just enjoy the rest of your life. You spread so much anti-american sentiments, it wouldn't surprise me if you boo everytime they play our national anthem. You might find this hard to believe Andrew, but we can make it without you and your ilk.Booooooooooooooooooooooooo.
Dr.Wogga,
Or should I say Dr. Mengele, some day you will be convicted for your hate crimes. You are the one that will be deported to face the music of your violent atrocities.
The intellectual interchange aproach certainly has lead nowhere. You two won't even agree to disagree.
First off, let me say that I am a smoker…. Trying to stop, so the increase in the number of non-smoking rooms is a good thing for me personally.
Now with that being said….
I find it absurd the number of people that equate smoking with bad play! A few of the biggest rocks I know of are smokers. Some of the craziest, lunatic madmen are non-smokers and there is everything else in between.
I guess this is just a stereotype that bugs me because it hits so close to home…. Its like saying, “I was in this game with these crazy Asian guys…”, “I guess all Asians are maniacs”. Ever study logic… there is something know as the fallacy of hasty conclusions. You might want to look it up!
Just my opinion for what its worth…
Just another egg
Now that I think about it I don't consider smokers bad players or rocks (are rocks good players?), maybe just not that smart. If a person is all that smart, when does he start smoking? Why continue to smoke despite the facts of how bad it is for you? Maybe as a non-smoker I don't have a feel for how hard it is to quit, I know it took a heart attack and part of a lung cut out for each of my parents to quit.
He is 50ish, wears dirty, rumpled clothes, is unshaven and has mussy hair. His skin looks grey and leathery. He smokes back to back cigarretes like a fiend and plays 80% of the hands dealt to him. Sometimes a large ugly woman comes and sits behind him.
He's a 30 to 45 year old asian man who is jumpy and fidgety. He sits with his seat turned around and his elbows leaning onto the table with his arms encircling his chips. He has an unlit cigarette in his mouth.
He defends his blind EVERY TIME.
He wears high top sneakers.
Whenever he gets busted, he holds the seats and goes over to the double hand tables for a while, then comes back.
Deck change, deck change, deck change.
If you're friendly to him, he's reciprocal, regardless if he's up or down, which makes him a better man than many who play this game. He can bust the whole table if he goes on a hot streak. He's actually quite fun to play with and a decent human being.
natedogg
He thinks he is good! He gives advice to others. He draws as a major underdog but is oblivious to the fact. He tilts easily. He is predictable. On my worst day, he is me. 99% of the time, I am not that player, however.
egg,
My comments in a thread below may have inspired your post but note that I was saying "on the average", not "all".
Regards,
Rick
Any individual smoker may be the smartest guy in the room.
But as an overall group, I'm sure they statistically fall below the mean in dozens of categories, from poker play to personal finance situation*.
* Of course, there are always exceptions to the rules. Like those smoking only imported Cuban Cigars.
I will be performing at The Comedy Store in Los Angeles again. It's always nice to meet 2+2 people face to face, and It's great to have audience support. Here's the info if you would like to attend an upcoming show.
There are two shows-Saturday May 19th and Saturday May 26th. Both shows are at 8:00pm.
Admission is free but please mention my name (Zach Waldman) at the door or when making reservations.
The Comedy Store is located at 8433 Sunset Blvd. For reservations call 310-535-4968.
Hope to see ya there for some laughs and poker chatter.
Zach (Mercury Tide)
Can you promise Mitzi won't be there?
...based on who was left after Day One:
Stan Goldstein Ken Goldstein Harry Thomas Jerri Thomas Jay Heimowitz Lonnie Heimowitz Amarillo Slim Bobby Baldwin Benny Behnen
After all that's gone down the previous three weeks, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see one of the three "relative" pairs make it(my money's on the brothers).
In short, TBC's "Lions" is a weak Zeppelin attempt that only gets to Edgar Winter levels at best. Wa-a-ay too much feedback and screeching from the Robinson bros, and even the unsung heroes of the "Live At The Greek" album, drummer Steve Gorman & keyboardist Ed Harsch, have an impossible task trying to equal John Bonham & John Paul Jones. However, there is a neat feature; each CD includes a unique code with which you can download concerts off the web. A great live band, but with seriously eroded songwriting skills.
Tool's "Lateralus", on the other hand, is an absolute hard rock masterpiece, that proudly takes it's place alongside "In Utero", "Angel Dust", "Nothing's Shocking", "Dirt" & "Badmotorfinger". Obviously, the ten minute+ long song approach of Yes & ELP was much better suited to hard rock acts, as Tool proves here, and they expose Korn and their ilk for the crap they truly are. Only NIN and The Pumpkins have come close to this, and "Lateralus" is much more polished and consistent than "The Fragile" & "Mellon Collie"(albeit lacking MC's obvious four or five hit singles); far better than anything they've ever done. A breakthrough for the genre on par with "Dark Side Of The Moon", IMO, and it also has a unique package design from guitarist/art & video director Adam Jones.
Hey Bill,
I confess that my musical roads don't normally run in the direction of Tool, but last week I sat down and watched their video that included "Stinkfist" and "Prison Sex," (no, the song's about child abuse) and I was impressed with both the video and the music.
John
John,
Great videos; aren't the puppets in "Sober" great? Did you also know that "Stinkfist" is about media/entertainment oversaturation? You can get transcripts of their(often indecipherable) lyrics at toolshed.down.net. The CD in that box set also has a good cover of "No Quarter".
And take a flyer on "Lateralus". It's that good.
Bill
"Nothing's Shocking" was a quality LP, but "Facelift" and "Loud Love" were better efforts by the respective bands.
Thanks for the heads up on the BC album.
it seems that there are some inconsistancies within the general readership of this forum, as far as smoking and gambling are concerned.
there are those who assert that gambling causes various problems with certain people and various problems to the surrounding community, lets ignore the validity of these assertions on the effects of gambling for now and focus on another aspect, the responses to these assertions. The primary response I have witnessed has been that people make thier own decscions and should be free to choose thier own path through life, for good or for ill. now assuming everybody who reads this forum is not adverse to gambling (not a large leap of faith) it would seem many of this pages readers would agree with this statement (the one about personal responsiblity and freedom)
it seems therefore that if the response to anti gamblers is the most prevailent, as I percieve it to be, then a poker room going no smoking would be greeted with jeers and boycotts instead of hurrahs and statements of joy. but that is not the case. I do not understand this. will somebody please explain this to me.
When you gamble your money away that's your business. But when you smoke, you can and do affect others.
One person's rights end where another person's rights begin. When someone plays poker with their own money that is a private, personal decision that does not impact me. But when that same person smokes and puts filth and toxins in the air I breathe that does impact me and I object. If they want to smoke, they can do it by themselves without contaminating the air that we all breathe. If they want to play poker then they cannot do things that are physically harmful to the people they are playing with.
ok, let me respond to this one now. it seems that your response hinges on the affects to you. now for many of us gambling is, was, and will be a positive influence on our lives. however it does have a bad side, crime (which could be due to having a large amount of cash concentrated in a single geographic area)gambling addiction (spend enough time in a casino and you will notice them) etc.. these do affect others.
gambling also has a positive side, ask any resident of tunica county and you will see this. before the casinos there were two paved roads in the entire county. the entire county consisted of cotton fields interspersed with crumbling shacks for the farmer to live in. I know a signifigant percentage, if not the overwhealming majority of the african-american population in the mid-west to north-east U.S. are descended from those who fled from places like this. Now the whole place is booming. There is room for entrepreneurship in almost every concievable area, as well as employment opportunities in both the casino industry as well as the surrounding area that simply was not there nor would ever be there without the casino's presence. I imagine las vegas was in the same situation before the flamingo opened there as well. well maby no cotton.
basically my point is that with gambling the good out weighs the bad. so what if there was a way to shift the equasion of smoking to an acceptable level without an outright ban? I think that this solution would be acceptable, and of minimal cost to the casinos.
In every poker room I have played in there has been a definate prevailing wind current. perhaps this has to do with the fact that most poker rooms are up against a wall and such often contain vents that are required to air condition an area larger than the poker room itself. Now since individual no smoking tables have proven to be inadquate, often because they were surrounded on all sides by smoking tables and within a smoke filled room. However as far as I am aware their has never been an experiment conducted with a no smoking area. a no smoking area placed definately upwind of the smoking area, with perhaps a buffer zone containing the brush stand and other things necessary for a poker room to operate would allow for an extensive array of both smoking and non-smoking games in rooms as large as the ones at both the mirage and bellagio, as well as keeping the second-hand smoke away from the non-smokers by virtue of the placement of the smoking area downwind from the non smokers.
this system would also have an even greater benefit for the poker room itself. It would bring in the increased traffic that the rooms expect to see from going no smoking, because it would provide 1/2 the room with all the benefits of a completely no-smoking room, while not alienating the smokers that such a change would drive away from the casino or at least to the pit. Thus incresing poker room revinue to an even higher level than the proposed nonsmoking policy is expected to do.
what are your thoughts on this idea? I think it has merit and would not be hard to impliment, maby adding a few vents here and there, or even a wall of glass, while the poker room manager has to only take 30 min out of his day to determine the wind flow before implimenting it. This idea has worked in resturants and bars, and I think would work in poker rooms as well.
lets face it, some people want to smoke, some people dont want to be around smokers, lets see if we can come up with something that works for all instead of just going one way or the other. any help refining this idea would definately be appreciated.
"while the poker room manager has to only take 30 min out of his day to determine the wind flow before implimenting it."
"any help refining this idea would definately be appreciated."
Buy a barometer too?
10 bucks at wallmart. do they have wallmarts out west?
I find it curious that now you (representing smokers united) are trying to offer a compromise to an outright ban on smoking at the tables. I believe that a compromise is what we have. You can still smoke in the building, just not at the table where your second hand smoke is unavoidable.
I further believe that the issue is not totally other players complaints. I think there is a possibility of being sued by the workers in an unhealthy work environment. Imagine if a non-smoking dealer came down with lung cancer from the constant exposure to second hand smoke. The rain would never stop falling on the casino's liability insurance. I would not be surprised if Bellagio and Mirage went non-smoking in part because of threatened litigation.
We don't allow cocaine in Coca Cola anymore, lead in the gasoline or driving without seatbelts either. As we evolve, we adjust. Give it up. The train has left the station and it's moving forward.
first off I do not represent smokers united or any other such nonsense, I am just a person who finds smoking to be an enjoyable activity, and such will continue to do so and frequent places where I am welcome to smoke, conversly I will not do business with places that do not permit smoking, when thier compitition does, period. I also am just a person who thinks he has a compromise that would work better than an outright ban on smoking at the poker table. If my idea works then we have the best of both worlds, if it does not then at least somebody tried to accomodate both parties.
the threatened litigation part of your statement does not hold water, simply because the rest of the dealers and other house personel are still exposed to smoking, and that constitutes a much greater threat to the casinos liability insurence then the relatively few people who work in the poker room. assuming the casinos wern't smart enough to cover themselves with a waver anyway
now has for other things in your statement.
cocaine- the war on drugs is a failure, people want to get high and will do so no matter how harsh you make the punishment, because without complete big brotherdom many will slip through the cracks and nobody on cocaine actually thinks they will get caught. if you would like I can ask one of the professors at my university for a list of papers to back this statement up. Its amazing how many people would not be in jail today if we had learned the lessons of prohabition
leaded gas- this was a bit before my time so I cannot comment because I have no specifics.
driving without a seat belt- this is a primary example of the government sticking its nose where it doesn't belong. the desciscion to wear a seat belt affects only one person, myself, now I choose to wear a seatbelt because I am a reasonable person and I know it could save my life one day. But the Idea of mandating it's use runs directly contrary to ones constutionaly mandated right to privacy. I think that sometime in the future there will be a serious legal challenge to this type of law and it will be struck down. As far as I am aware there has not been.
A few years ago, the Tropicana in Atlantic City had a special non-smoking room with about a dozen tables in it for non-smokers only. Even though I don't smoke, I still played in the smoking room because the games were fuller and the action was better.
Jim Brier wrote "when that same person ...puts filth and toxins in the air I breathe that does impact me and I object."
Presumably you take the same attitude to those who drive a car.
Driving a car is a necessity in a modern society. Furthermore, I do not place my nose right next to the exhaust pipe of a car when I am outside.
"seems that there are some inconsistancies within the general readership of this forum, as far as smoking and gambling are concerned."
"The primary response I have witnessed has been that people make thier own decscions and should be free to choose thier own path through life, for good or for ill"
"if the response to anti gamblers is the most prevailent,... then a poker room going no smoking would be greeted with jeers and boycotts"
There are no inconsistancies in how some readers of this forum view gambling and smoking at least not this readers. I do not view them as similar issues. Gambling is an individual exercising a right that does not infringe on the rights of others. Smoking is an individual exercising a right that does infringe on the rights of others and in fact may cause harm to another individual. Therefore I am not against gambling in a public room but I am against smoking. Those are my views. I do not believe I am being inconsistent but am willing to listen.
vince
The contradiction you see doesn't exist because defenders of legalized gambling generally don't foolishly insist that the non-gambling community should pay all the costs but have no say in the matter (by regulating time, place, taxes, availability, etc.), just like no opponents of gambling want to make it a felony everywhere. These sides disagree in where to strike the balance. Those that see a "rights" infringement by making people smoke a few yards away instead of elbow to elbow with inconvenienced strangers either (1) should see as much incongruity in anti-assault laws in a free society or (2) haven't thought it through.
I chose Chris Alger's response to reply to because I wanted to respond to his statement about smokers making non smokers pay through thier taxes for thier smoking related problems. I feel that government health programs are incompatable with a free society. I should have no obligation to help out anybody else with thier problems, as nobody should have any obligation to do so with me. If I choose to do so, that is my right. If you choose to do so then that is your right. However it is the idea of obligation that bothers me.
socialism fails because it removes the motavation to work hard, smart etc... capitalism succedes because it glorifies success and thus motavates everybody to attempt to do so, thus you get more who do succede, thus strengthing the entire country.
Spoken like a true isolationist. You, sir, are an idiot.
Please refrain from name-calling.
If you would like to impugn someone's opinion, do it through factual presentation and logical argument.
Can't you see the inconsistency in your position?
On one hand you state that you feel non-smokers shouldn't have to help pay for smokers' health problems. OK, fine. Let's further assume that you also feel that the converse is true: Since you are opposed to government health programs, you would also feel that smokers shouldn't have to help pay for non-smokers' health problems. Yet you seem to have no problem with smokers increasing the chance that non-smokers will develop health problems by forcing them to breathe passive smoke.
nobody is forcing anybody to breath anything, when a smoker is "forcing you to breath smoke" what you are really saying is I find the overall equasion to be such that I will remain near this smoker despite all the risks involved, because some other source of pleasure is available that outweighs this. The only way I could force you to do anything is with physical violence and that is and should be illegal.
Well, if I peed in your Coke you wouldn't necessarily be forced to drink it either, with the exception of physical violence, and this is and should be illegal.
yes, and I would choose not to drink that coke. morally speaking you would owe me a coke or at least loose all right to complain when I pee in yours
I don't drink Coke, so we can substitute smoking in my air as the approximate equivalent. You should likewise lose all right to complain if you happen to be the first transgressor.
Smoking is lung disease as a hobby. They are free to do whatever they want to themslves. But they don't have the right to take me (across the River Styx) with them.
first off thank you for jumping on alec for me, it saves me the time, I am not a troll, nor do i intend my comments as flamebait, I just think I have a better idea on how a poker room can work for both sides, and a better view of what america can become.
No problem. I just prefer civil discourse.
Gambling and smoking.
I've also thought it should have been easy for our cardroom to create a vented, smoking section of the poker room. But instead they chose to ban it altogether and now there are a lot of empty seats.
I suspect, but am not sure, that poker room owners are banning smoking to protect against second-hand smoke law suits. They see a complete ban as the best way to accomplish this. And remember the airline assistant settlements against the airlines? Even a sectioned off smoking room would have to be attended by employees.
Is anybody interested in a 10/20 HOSE game in Chicago (downtown), on Thursdays. If interested please e-mail me at ericsolomon@msn.com.
Eric
what does the E stand for? Hold'em, Omaha, Stud, E?
Eight or better, although i'm not 100% sure whether the standard understanding is 7stud8 or Omaha hilow8
x
Article by Col. David Hackworth (US Army, Ret)
Reprinted w/o permission but I doubt he would mind. King Features might, but screw 'em.
--- THE RUMSFELD WALL WON'T DEFEND AMERICA
DAVID H. HACKWORTH
Now it's the Space Wall!
Long-in-the-tooth pro-wallers, backed up by pals in the military-industrial-congressional complex (MICC), are at it again.
Solving some of tomorrow's problems with yesterday's thinking -- while ignoring real threats that should receive the highest priority -- might end up wasting more Americans than all our wars combined.
Just while I've been sucking air on planet Earth, there have been walls aplenty: Maginot, Westwall, Berlin and Robert McNamara's $2 billion electronic doozie designed by corporate America to fence in Ho Chi Minh's hordes. And let's not forget Saddam Hussein's supposedly impenetrable Kuwait Wall that Stormin' Norman turned into a monument to stupidity in just 100 hours.
None of the 20th-century walls worked. Nor did their predecessors, from the Great Wall of China to the Limes in Germany to Hadrian's Wall in Britain to the massive Coast Artillery Wall that "protected" America and fed the budding MICC around the turn of the 20th century. History clearly shows that man-made walls don't do the job.
Sure, there's an ICBM threat, but the Space Wall -- which will cost more than it would to send every kid in America to fine schools like those the Clinton and Bush girls attend, modernize every hospital to the standards of the ones that look after our lawmakers so well and eliminate the thousands of ghettos that shame America -- is decades away from functioning as a viable deterrent.
And many experts say that $100 billion later, the development of this latest version of Star Wars: the defense shield will have produced nothing more than the mother of all arms races.
In any case, ICBMs launched by a few Looney Tune nations are the least of our troubles. Rogue states can be contained the way we and the Soviets did with Mutually Assured Destruction. What we do is put out the word to places like Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Pakistan: Just one missile headed our way, and there won't be a city in your land that won't glow for 250,000 years.
Instead of building another wall, we should be addressing America's No. 1 threat -- TERRORISM. And to protect us adequately, anti-terrorist preventive measures should be fast-tracked the way FDR ramrodded the Manhattan Project, which gave us the A-bomb before Hitler. With the same urgency JFK showed when he pushed the throttle to get us up into space. And with the same passion Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld is displaying toward his new wall-to-be.
Enough plutonium has been slipped out of the ex-Soviet Union to build a dozen nuclear weapons. What's to stop Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden from making refrigerator-size atomic bombs, crating 'em up and shipping them to "cousins" conveniently living in key port cities such as Boston; New York City; Norfolk, Va.; Savannah, Ga.; Galveston, Texas; San Diego; Los Angeles; San Francisco and Seattle? All with timers ticking away to go off at exactly the same second while the "crates" await customs inspection? And if they're shipped by a cutout in France or Ireland, there'd be no fingerprints, either.
Remember, we still haven't nailed the perps who blew up our Air Force billet in Saudi Arabia or the bombers who did a number on the USS Cole.
Surely the best brains and leaders should be assembled and told to figure out how to work together to stop the nukes, chemical and biological weapons now brewing in labs around the world from clobbering the USA. Quick smart before it's too late.
But so far, our anti-terrorist countermeasures against Weapons of Mass Destruction have been relegated to the back burner. Only a fraction of our defense bucks has been earmarked for anti-terrorism, and the effort's been pretty much staffed by incompetents and gridlocked by governmental turf wars. More defense money's been shipped south of the border to fight the unwinnable drug war than used to stop WMD from creating an American holocaust.
The arms race that would be created by Rumsfeld's wall might be great for Lockheed and Martin -- not to mention the rest of the MICC Cold War Millionaires Club made up of former generals and admirals and SecDefs. But long before those happy "duck and pray" days are here again, America could go down the chute from the effects of WMD. *** (c) 2001 David H. Hackworth Distributed by King Features Syndicate Inc.
...Colonel Hackworth, who received more decorations for gallantry (meaning earned in combat, as opposed to those for "meritorious service") than any other soldier, was never promoted to General:
1. He's smart,
2. He's opinionated,
3. He's right, and
4. He isn't one the go along-get along, insider frat boys that put their careers before their county and their service.
Want a better Army? Close West Point.
Very interesting, I had no idea.
Hackworth is a prolific member of the excellent Center for Defense Information, a think-tank consisting of dissident retired officers. It has a great many free articles on this an many other defense issues at its' website.
Maybe he is right. But that piece he wrote provides little or nothing to support his assertions. How about some facts, Colonel, so I and others can make a reasonable assessment? He cites "many experts." He doesn't even say "most experts." How do we know that his "many experts" are not actually in the minority of expert opinions on this matter? I have no opinion on the feasibility of such a shield because I have no facts. Nor do I have a sense of how many experts are on each side of the fence on this.
By the way, I don't see why he would think the MAD doctrine would necessarily work against nutcases such as terrorists or Saddam Hussein types.
I haven't heard of *anyone* without direct interest in it who thinks it can work. This isn't really a "shield", it's like trying to keep a bullet from hitting you by firing a bullet of your own to hit the one coming at you.
Terrorists don't have ICBMs, neither does Iraq. You don't really have to worry about guys like Hussein because they know their country dissapears ten minutes after they lob one rocket at the U.S. A nuclear attack from these sources is along the lines of having tanker with a nuclear device on it sail into New York harbor and blow up. It can't stop this and it can't stop a nuclear attack from Russia (even its most adamant supporters believe this--it could never stop a submarine attack for instance).
What the missile sheild will do is give tens of billions of dollars to the defense industry. It's a big subsidy of Bush's pals and he will be out of office for a decade before the system is given up on as unworkable.
Instead of giving all that money to corporate america why not give it back to the tax payers or build better hospitals, schools, etc?
Paul Talbot
I don't know if your points are entirely correct but your last question is quite reasonable.
"By the way, I don't see why he would think the MAD doctrine would necessarily work against nutcases such as terrorists or Saddam Hussein types. "
please explain why you think Saddam is Nutcase. I have never noticed anything irrational about any of his actions.
He is a ruthless dictator who wants to retain as much power as possible. Everything he has done seems to indicate that he is very good at what he does. I think a MAD policy would work quite well with Saddam. Notice that he never launched any biological warfare weapons towards the US or Isreal during the Gulf War Fiasco. Ever wonder why? It certainly appears he had the capability to so.
His actions and willingness to follow through with the Persian Gulf War strikes me as irrational. I think a rational leader would have known the U.S. would soundly defeat him and would probably have backed down in the face of a build-up that was clearly not just for show. This does mean that he is necessarily a nutcase, I grant you that, but it does make me wonder. And if he isn't a nutcase, there are others who are, and there will be future nutcases. I don't feel that we can assume that the Mutually Assured Destruction/Deterrence will ALWAYS work, because sooner or later we will run into a military leader/head of state or a terrorist leader who just doesn't care what happens to himself or his country. I think it takes a certain degree of rationality on both parties' parts for MAD to work.
Boris,
For an interesting comparison, I think, look at Dr. Strangelove and Wargames. Strangelvove's character is modeled on John Von Neumann, the father of Game Theory, and the later film lets the computer, which concludes that neither side can win, play out the "game" using game theory (sort of).
John
What do you mean, "[h]ow about some facts?" On which facts did you rely when you invoked "rogue nations" and "emerging primary threats" in your defense of NMD below? You are merely parroting the official line, including the demonization of this year's bad guys without a trace of recognition about their status as last year's good guys. Bin Laden with ICBM's? Countries without navies threatening American freedoms? A government with unparalleled concentrated power means that "we" will hold the cards? It's a huge joke. You are confusing the ability of powerful institutions to make their propaganda heard above the noise with the romantic notion that the dominant ideas must be those that have survived rigorous testing in a free market of ideas.
It is a fact that I read several years ago a newspaper report that Iraq is expected to have the atomic bomb within 3 to 6 years at most, if they don't already have it. It is a fact that more countries, not fewer, gradually acquire nuclear capability as years roll by. It is a fact that well-financed terrorist organizations acquire more sophisticated weaponry to replace their older less sophisticated weaponry. Whether this means we may see serious threats in the near future is anyone's guess, but I don't think it is an unreasonable projection that such a time might eventually come.
Even if there never will be a such a threat from smaller countries or from terrorist groups, let's not forget that Russia still holds a huge arsenal of nuclear warheads. If a missile defense could work, and if it could be built within a sustainable cost-structure over a period of time, I wouldn't then see the value in eschewing it in favor of maintaining some fragile faith in relying on MAD to shield ourselves. Russia is in turmoil and will be for quite some time. Nobody knows who will lead Russia or what things might be like in 10 years. I think it would be foolhardy to continue to rely on MAD if indeed there is a viable alternative which would let us protect ourselves. The world is unfortunately a very unstable place. And what if there were a catastrophic computer glitch or hacker attack and somehow those Russian (or even Chinese) missiles got launched at us? Defenselessness is foolish IMO if there is a viable alternative (and I agree that is a big "if", but that's the point I am trying to make: If it could work, it would be highly desirable).
Chris,
The Colonel has the background to provide facts to support his views should he choose to. I don't, so I am raising some questions.
With the exception of the "emerging threats" statement, I think the other "facts" I listed above as such should be fairly obvious (such as that more nations over time join the nuclear club, and that well-funded terrorists tend to acquire more sophisticatec weapons over time). The "emerging threat" statement, I agree, is more debatable, but even that could be considered as likely at some point given enough of a timeline into the future, I think.
One pot makes the high hand and one pot makes the small and the rest that the dealer gives you don't do anything at all, go see Alice, when she's tries to cold call.
And if you go chasing gutshots, well, you know that your teeth will just grind, when a hookah-smoking character, has shown you fours full of nines, Well don't tell Alice, she said to raise the two blinds.
When the men at the podium don't point out which way you should go, and you've just had some kind of decaf, and your mind is moving quite slow, go ask Alice, I think she'll know.
When your logic and the pot odds show you to bury your cards in the sand , and your opponent is talking backwards, and the Red Queen's come up again, remember... what the 2+2 said,
feed your hand, FEED YOUR HAND.
(feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed your hand...)
You must have the good stuff. However, it just might be time to take a little break from it.
Lysergic acid experiences never reeeallly end.
Just For You Jake,
LSD D-lysergic acid diethylamide, C20H25N3O (mol. wt. 323.43)
One of the most potent psychoactive drugs known, LSD is the prototypical psychedelic. Tihkal #26
CAS 50-37-3 Synthesized Event ID Albert Hofmann synthesizes LSD.
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Dosage: Oral Threshhold- 10-50 ug Mild- 50-100 ug Medium- 100-250 ug Strong- 250-500 ug "Saturation Dose"- 500-1000ug and up A "standard" dose is canonically held to be 100 mcg, but the average "hit" sold today is typically around 50-75 mcg according to DEA analyses, in contrast with what are believed to be much higher doses (around 250 mcg) when LSD first appeared on the black market in the late 1960s
Smoked Despite persistent uninformed reports of "pot laced with LSD", LSD cannot be smoked. It is destroyed by heat.
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Documents: LSD Synthesis from "Psychedelic Guide to the Preparation of the Eucharist" by Robert Brown, 1967. LSD FAQ A classic document by Gnosis Culture and Extraction of Ergot Alkaloids from "Psychedelic Chemistry", by Michael Valentine Smith, pp. 105--107. Multiple Combinations - Cosmic Synergism Exerpt from The Essential Psychedelic Guide The Pineal Gland, LSD, and Serotonin Acid Dreams, Chapter 1 by Martin lee and Bruce Shlain LSD Analyses PharmChem analyses, 1972-1974. Low doses of LSD <50 mcg. A collection of references and abstracts. A Commentary on LSD by Alice Dee LSD Purity - Gospel and Heresy A good critical review of the ever-popular issue. more...
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Contacts and URLs: DEA (US Drug Enforcement Agency) (homepage, more info) Federal agency charged with enforcing US drug laws. Club Drugs Report, February 2000 (related items...) LSD In the United States Informative report on what the DEA knows about LSD and the LSD trade. (related items...) Erowid (homepage, more info) "Documenting the Complex Relationship between Humans and Psychoactives" Drug Testing Homepage Drug testing info for a wide variety of substances (related items...) LSD Vault (related items...) Hedonistic Imperative (homepage, more info) Entry point for an eclectic group of sites with information and opinions on many things, including drugs. Nets made by spiders on various drugs (related items...) MAPS (homepage, more info) Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies LSD: Completely Personal Address by Albert Hofmann on the discovery of LSD to the 1996 Worlds of Consciousness Conference in Heidelberg, Germany. Translated by Jonathan Ott. (related items...) Sputnik Drug Information Zone (homepage, more info) Historical snapshot of one of the original internet drug information resources. "Blue Star" LSD Tattoo Urban Legend Page A classic, well-documented page on the persistent myth. (related items...) The Lycaeum (homepage, more info) That's us! An online entheogenic database and community. LSD Blotter Art (related items...) The Principia Discordia (homepage, more info) Classic psychedelic reading-- if you haven't yet been touched by the five-fingered hand of Eris, check it out. Trance-Formation (homepage, more info) Miscellaneous URLs Postulated Mechanisms of LSD (related items...) The Essential Psychedelic Guide The late D.M. Turner's psychonautic handbook (related items...) more...
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Images: LSD blotter LSD blotter LSD-25 2D Structure LSD blotter LSD blotter LSD blotter LSD blotter more...
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Trip Reports: "I know I was a stupid fuck": A first-time tripper ends up in the hospital Substances: LSD Candyflip: birthday at a rave Substances: MDMA, LSD A Trip In Hungary: An interesting tale about a drug binge at the Solipse festival Substances: Nitrous oxide, MDMA, Methamphetamine, LSD, Hashish, Marijuana "I've always been curious about hallucinogens": A detailed first-time report Substances: LSD A whole lot of acid: Not recommended Substances: LSD, 5-MeO-DMT "Well.. what did you expect?": LSD, Cannabis, Nitrous Substances: Nitrous oxide, LSD, Marijuana Alien Landscapes: An intense, elegant description Substances: Nitrous oxide, Ketamine, LSD, DMT "Everything looked pristine, and alive.": A first-time report Substances: LSD A Weekend on the Other Side: LSD with meth and marijuana Substances: Methamphetamine, LSD, Marijuana An encounter with the police.: "an extremely traumatic experience" Substances: LSD more...
paul
Paul,
I'm not sure what "Just For You Jake" means. Are you speaking down to me? I did come of age in the sixties.
Most of the monograph you provided lacks verbs, an essential component for the transmission of ideas.
I am aware that one should use caution when tinkering with one's brain chemistry, as it may be needed later.
What did you have in mind when you penned the response?
Jake
Thinking I had anything in mind is a mistake. I was just passing on something you mite find interesting not subjective.
paul
Ah, yes. Not necessarily stoned, but beautiful.
surf music
again
Verbs! You want verbs? Hell, with Paul, you're lucky you got nouns.
ukw
jwc
The veil has been lifted. He was being helpful.
IBBY
I'm sure you're right about not being able to smoke LSD. However, you can lace dope with PCP, and God do I have some stories about that.
I thought of this this morning, but I didn't have time to post it. D. Andrew beat me to it below. I guess I'm not the only one to notice that Pro showed up shortly after SmoothB disappeared.
Same childish personal attacks, same naive attempts to impress the forum (does he really think that we would believe there is a pro named Bob in the LA area who has students, yet none of us knows him or has heard of him?).
Pro Bob<-->SmoothB.
He just couldn't stay away.
n/t
Well, I've just been looking at the numbers from pokerpages on the final 45 players. At first, I was just looking at the chip counts in order from 1-45. From that list, I Hellmuth, Bechtel, Negreanu, Tony D, Song, Cunningham, and Sexton. Of course, 9 make the final table, but I had no strong thoughts for the other 2 spots. I would pick one of the other chip leaders, but I've never heard of Nowakowski or Schrier. I know that Korbin is a friend of Badger's, and that Badger likes his game, but I don't know the guy (other than he already won another bracelet this year). I don't like Matusow's game, so I'm not picking him. He's more than aggressive enough, but I think somebody in this group will trap him successfully and break or cripple him before they reach the final 9.
But, my thoughts have changed quite a bit after looking at the seating assignments. Negreanu got a great table with #60. It's great for him moving up the payscale, though maybe not so great in terms of winning the whole thing. The average table has T1,226,000, and the average player T136,000. Negreanu's table has only T997,000, and he's over T60,000 ahead of the next biggest stack at his table. I have no idea what the break order of the table's is, but if he stays here for a while, his chances of making the final 9 is higher than anybody else in the tourney, IMO.
Table 61 is the second richest table, and I love Jim Bechtel's position. Because of all the big stacks, everyone at this table is in danger, but they've also got great potential for building a big stack and winning it all. Jim has a great game, both patient and aggressive, and he's got good position at this table, with good position on Tony D, one of the trickiest players at the table (at least as far as I know, which isn't very far on this table).
Table 62 is the poorest table of all, and that favors these guys moving onward to the final table or 2. Mike Sexton is the third biggest stack at the table, and he's not very far behind the 2 guys ahead of him. I make him my top pick at this table, and feel he's going to make the final 9. I also like John Inashima, the tightest tournament poker player in the world. He's got more patience than the other 44 guys put together, but knows how to take advantage of his tight image when he has to. It would have been very unfortunate for him to land at a rich table, but at table 62 he has a good shot at moving up. I pick him to make the final 18, but probably not the final 9.
Table 63. Wow. over T1.5M in chips, with #1 and #3 chip leaders. There are 5 stacks on this table bigger than the chip leader on table 62. The winner is pretty likely to come from this table, and that means Hellmuth has a great shot at winning again. His only problem is that sitting 2 seats behind him is the chip leader Nowakowski. I know nothing about this guy, but if these two don't stay out of each other's way, we're going to have a massive chip leader very quickly on day 4. Mike May is chip leader #44. I really like this guy and his game, but with this table he's pretty likely to finish with 5th table money. I hope he finds a couple of quick double-up opportunities and goes deep.
Table 64 is the average table. I don't really like Matusow's game, but his draw in landing here was perfect. He's the chip leader at the table, and everyone at the table except one guy has enough chips that they might want to play cautiously and avoid big pots. This is where Mike is best, at aggressively stealing small and medium sized pots, so he has a good shot at building up a big stack during day 4. Song is also well-positioned. He is pretty much across the table from Matusow, so shouldn't be butting heads with him very often, and he is the second biggest stack at the table. I pick these guys to both make the final 9. Based on stack size alone, I really liked Cunningham's chances, but he got a terrible draw, with Matusow right behind him. He's going to have a tough time of it stealing blinds without facing lots of resteals from Matusow. Cunningham is either going to take a big bite out of Matusow early on or be faced with the prospect of watching his stack slowly dwindle while he waits to find cards.
Here's my picks, in order, for making the final 9: Bechtel Hellmuth Sexton Negreanu Matusow Nowakowski Song
That's only 7, and 9 make the final table. In no particular order, here are some other picks for those last 2 spots: Bjorin Tony D Schrier Inashima Cunningham
Now, let's see how bad I do. ;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I pick Helmuth to be the biggest whiner when he gets busted out.
..who are you picking to win?
I think I'm picking Hellmuth, but I'm rooting for fellow Canadian (and hockey fan) Negreanu! I think it would also be interesting if this mysterious "Tony D" won.
Carl McKelvey and Dewey Tomko could make it to the last table. I doubt Hellmuth(bad position - 2 off to the right of the chip leader) and Matusow(too aggressive) will even make the final table. It's going to come down to Bechtel vs. Negreanu for the title.
Given that Mike May has managed to hold on to the top 30, from being 44th, I'm rooting for him to win it all.
Greg, you know more of them than I do, so you are a better judge. But I see two things (1) likely to be 1 or 2 no-mame players at final table (2) Negreanu is aggressive, add this to his chip lead at tble 60 where it will be easy for him to pound others, and it seems that he may come out of there with such a huge chip lead over Sexton that you should put him before Mike on your list,...he may belong there anyway. Jim
"Given that Mike May has managed to hold on to the top 30, from being 44th, I'm rooting for him to win it all."
If you knew him, you'd root for him even moreso. He's one of the most down to earth guys you'll meet. The whole city of New York pulls for him, and we're proud to see him place 28th, which is remarkable when you realize that he started the day with only 2 and a half rounds worth of chips left.
I do know him. Or at least I am acquainted with him.
Hey all,
I'll be touching down in Vegas tonight at midnight. Be watching the final table tomorrow and haunting the games at Mirage and Bellagio and maybe some Orleans tourneys this weekend.
Look for a 30 year old guy in a black visor, shorts and 'Buddy Holly' glasses. Come by and introduce yourself. I'd love to chat with fellow 2+2ers.
KJS
I should be out this weekend, probably late afternoon/evening at The Mirage. Make sure you say hello.
What do you think the other members of Slipknot would do if, say, the pig mask guy got knocked out onstage by a Hell's Angel/security guard's pool cue?
they would piss themselves in sheer terror. those guys are a bunch of posers inspired by MTV's really bizarre fixation with anything that happens in the bathroom.
Kids these days, I tell ya....
Agreed. What these kids need is to get locked in a room with "Highway to Hell" stuck in a CD player at about 120 decibles. When they come out singing "Walk All Over You" I'll know they're cured.
From the latest report on Daryl Strawberry(although it coulda been any other 'name'):
"The judge said she treated the celebrity like anyone else."
.
It should go: "... she treated the celebrity like any other drug addict should be treated in our justice system."
natedogg
what a cool identity. On top of that, Nolan Dalla describes him in cardplayer as
"A great high-stakes player and one of the most feared shorthanded players in the world."
Wow. I wish people thought of me like that. Anybody have more info on him? Oh well, I guess I'll find out more after he wins.
sucker
Just checked RGP.
sucker
(1) Henry Nowakowski $1,076,000
(2) Carlos Mortensen $873,000
(3) Phil Hellmuth $859,000
(4) Mike Matusow $767,000
(5) Phil Gordon $681,000
(6) Stan Schrier $672,000
(7) Dewey Tomko $467,000
(8) Steve Reihle $407,000
(9) John Inashima $328,000
Hello,
I had a situation come up in a 6/12 game last night that happens every so often.
An off-duty dealer was in the game, he had got snapped off a couple times and was steaming a bit.
A while later a hand came up where he had QQ in the SB. I had AKs, another player had AKo and a fourth player had KK.
The flop was AQx. He got nice action and took down a decent pot. As he was dragging the pot, he commented loudly to the player next to him:
"Good thing I had got bunch of SUCKERS around," making sure everyone heard the word 'SUCKERS.'
His comment was not made in jest or lightly. I asked him "What was that?" and he just glared at me. I wanted to give him an opportunity to apologize or say "Just kidding" or something, but he wasn't having any of it.
Now, I have no problem losing that pot. He had a great hand. However, I just don't see myself having any inclination to toss this dealer a red cent if he pushes me a pot because of his crappy comment and attitude. I hadn't even been snapping him off!
I've seen dealers, both off-duty and as props, show bad behavior in games before. (Berating bad players, needling, etc)
I wonder why they would do this as their income depends on the players they are subjecting to this behavior? This includes the other players at the table forced to listen to their whining.
This behavior is tempting me to rethink my tipping practices. I usually tip $1 for an average pot, more for a large pot or a couple nices ones in a row, but dealers behaving like this individual make me want to consider cutting it to a straight $.50 per pot or just stop tipping altogether.
I know this is unfair to the other dealers, but I have to admit this crossed my mind.
Does anyone else have any comments on how rude or impolite off duty dealers might affect how they tip in general?
Dealers who do this are too stupid to be toked.
I've had this problem before (although not quite this exact situation), and just quit tipping that dealer altogether. When another player at the table asked why I didn't toke, I calmly relayed to him (the player) the situation that had pissed me off, and made sure the dealer heard me. I then looked at the dealer and told him that if he ever apologized to me I'd start tipping him again, but untill that happened he was off the tit.
Be calm, be candid, and don't tip untill he says he's sorry.
Interesting post. I've had the same experience with a dealer or two. I guess dealers have to take so much abuse from players (and they do, don't they?) whining about the cards etc., that when it's their turn to be in the game they feel somewhat justified in venting a little steam of their own. I can't blame them entirely.
All I can say is it's not wise on their part - I do hold back some tokes as a result. But when the dealer gets back in his seat and if he is professional, I just remember he's probably a miserable bastard less fortunate than myself, that really needs the money.
I was playing 4-8 and happened to have a pink 50 cent chip. I won a faily good size pot and without thinking I threw forward that chip. I would usually tip $1 to $2. The dealer tapped it on the table and then threw it back at me.
At first I did'nt get it. Then it was clear. (You cheap (*&(*&)
Anyway, for awhile I didn't tip that dealer. Then I let it go.
Dealers are people too and sometimes don't handle things well. Life is too short.
the one thing most people forget dealers play poker alot to so we know what if feels like to be on the other side of the box...also alot of players have dealt somewhere before so they know how we feel!! what it comes down to everyone needs to respect each other. alot of players also forget if were having a bad day its going to show and sometimes it hard to keep it calm while dealing...
Never toke. It's not your responsibility to make the sure the dealers are earning more money than you can playing.
I have read all the post on this string. All except one of them have moments of truth some more than others. I myself am a dealer, so maybe I can give you the dealer's perspective. In my opinoin the measure of a truly professional dealer is also measured when he is on the other side of the felt as well. If a dealer takes out his frustrations of being berated (while dealing) on the players he is playing against he is not a professional. He needs to be made an example of for his unprofessional behavior. I would suggest this. Next time he is dealing to you and you take down a pot say this; "I did not appreciate you calling me a sucker the other day when you took down that pot, therefore, I am not tipping you this pot and I will tip you less from here on out." If his behavior at the table improves and you feel that he has learned a lesson thatn you can, if you choose, to start tipping him more. However, there are many very professional dealers that know when to hold there tongue and when not to. They should not have to suffer because of unprofessional card slingers(I say card slinger because an unprofessional dealer doesn't deserve to be called a dealer).
I cannot finish without addressing a couple comments made by other post on this string. First, just because someone makes less money does not make them less fortunate. I consider myself very fortunate, I have three beautiful daughters and a wife, my own cars, and my own house. All paid for with my tips. I have seen many men and women in the card rooms that had tons of money and were the most miserablepeople I had ever met. Compared to them I feel most fortunate. Secondly, never toking is not the answer. If you think you will get professional well trained dealers at $4.75 an hour or even at minimum wage just think back to the last time your order was screwed up at McDonald's. You get what you pay for, and if you think the casino's will pay them a decent wage while keeping the rake at it's present amount you are a bigger fool then your post shows.
Can a non-US citizen open a dollar account in a US bank?
If yes, can anyone recommend a bank in LV that would be able to do this?
Most banks (in LV) will not give you an account unless you are a LV resident with a Nevada driver's license or other proof. But California Federal has branches in LV and they will open an account. The nice thing about them is you can also bank in California if you want to play out there.
'
citicorp is a bank that has international offices. you may beable to even open in your country and get money in and out without too much trouble. they dont give the best exchange rates though. also check with banks at home and see what ones in u.s. do they have easy money exchange with(wiring). moving money around the world is no longer much of a problem. another option is to open a money market acount with a trading firm that has offices in l.v , then you can take money in and out during business hours easily and earn higher rates during the long times it may sit there.
:
go here, http://www.pokerpages.com/index.htm
once on the homepage just click where it says LIVE AUDIO UNDERWAY!, click here
Enjoy!
If the popups aren't less obscene (road rage homicide), online casino which has a feigned x-out box which is actually a link, I'm going to regretfully give up my daily 2 & 2 fix.
they insult one's intelligence don't they?
,.,.,.,.,
Congrats to Carlos Mortensen. And thanks to the poker gods for watching out for the good of poker. Word has it that a Mortensen win will be much better for the poker economy than a Tomko (and his AA) win would have been... um, if ya know what I mean... Not that this is all that unusual when it comes to (certain) WSOP champs... Strange little world, this poker world is.
'continues' implies that the trend is ongoing. Personally, I don't chase Chris around trying to get into games with him.
JG
You are right sir. Perhaps I should have been more explicit than the "semi" and "certain" qualifiers which intended to say that some WSOP champs have not done their part to maintain the tradition. And Chris may indeed be a hint of an approaching end to it. (though, due to chance, there will always be the occasional surprise winner)
The Dealer whispered to the SPM, "I was in the Valley of Patience (VoP) last week and I thought, I was going to go crazy!" The SPM replied, "there's a little know fact, in the VoP, more players crack up than any other Town. For player's in the two neighboring Towns, the term cracking up, does not even exist. In both Towns the correct message would be, the player has just busted out, and ended up on the rail."
Waiting for the nuts is a tedious boring journey to the winners circle. The agonizing pressure to embrace the release, fighting the emotional urges to jump into the action with any two cards.
Looking at the first card, the player sees a superior opportunity, the second card arrives and once again the players hopes are shattered. Finally after dozens of released hands and countless shattered hopes the player looks down and sees a playable hand.
Our hero fires the chips into the pot and on the river the miracle card destroys our hero. The tension mounts and before long our hero cracks under the relentless pressure, ending with our hero in emotional distress. Another statistic for the Texas Hold'em statistician's.
Fellow players, the insanity factor does exists in the VoP. The statistics are available and they will confirm the high incidents of random paranoia, followed by a total nervous break down. The affliction is called, "being totally permanently screwed up tighter than a set of banded hemorrhoids."
As the Mayor of Any2card Town, I am appalled! I ask for an immediate investigation. All Texas Hold'em guru's should be interrogated. These Hold'em guru's of the holy grail, conveniently left out the insanity factor in all of their statistics. No mention of the stress, the lost minds of sons and daughters of Texas, Iowa, Illinois, California, Vegas, and the world.
For a Hold'em player the VoP is a hard road, it demands perseverence, and dedication to the axiom's Patience, Power, Position, Tight & Aggressive. Few mortal men can survive the tasks required for permanent domicile in the VoP. Many come, few stay and many go insane.
SPM,...read the small print, before you make a commitment
If fishing interferes with your buisness, give up your buisness... The trout do not rise in Greenwood Cemetary.
Sparce Gray Hackle
Fishless Days, Angling Nights 1954
isnt sparse grey hackle a guy named slyvester nemis or something like that. i fished with him down in yellowstone many years ago on the madison during the brown trout run. seemed like a good guy but a lousy caster with the heavy flies if i remember well.
Looked it up on Amazon.
Alfred w. Miller/Sparse Grey Hackle
Selvester Nemes/ Soft Hackeled fame/author.
In my mind there's no better area than the greater Yellowstone Region.
ive always liked yellowstone park area the best. i used to camp at bakers hole for most of sept and oct and fish and hunt for many years. i stopped as the crowds discovered it and started coming up during the off season. the best trout fishing from small lakes is still the blackfoot reservation. the people have found it and you dont get to fish alone anymore but still can and will catch many trout in the 4 to 8 or better lb. class.
Did you ever fish Henrey's Lake in the fall or the Box Canyon strech of the Henrey's Fork?
George Town?
I'll get to the Res some day. I've known about it for 20+ YRS.
many days on henrys lake in the fall but hard work for 3 lb. trout in those days. i fished the box canyon quite a bit but it was hard work to do well. i like the railroad ranch much better but hard dry fishing as there was always weeds floating by. but it was one of the few places where you could catch maybe a ten pounder on a dry fly although i never did. i havent fished any of the above in 15 years so im out of touch with them. as for george town lake, by anaconda. i only fished it once a few years ago. it was spring and there were a bunch of fishermen on the shore so i went around out on the point by the parking area and started casting. there were trout rising all around me but i couldnt get a hit. then a game warden came by and asked for my license so i gave it to him while he politely wrote me a ticket for fishing in a closed area. then gave all the others one too. i guess in the regs. there is something about a closure there. so much for a hundred bucks.
I bought a 1978 VW van. I told you all that it was a 79 but it is a 78.
It needed work. Well now it needs more work.
I couldn't get it to start. Well I drained the gas and added new gas and I got it to start but it would only run for about 10 minutes and stall. I checked the spark plugs. The no 2 (it,s a 4 cylinder) plug was fouled. I started the engine and pulled the number 2 plug wire. No change in the engine speed. Oh, O. I hoped for a bad plug wire or plug. Tried others nope. Didn't fix it!
Then the idiot in me took over. I took the wires off the other three cylinders and tried to start the car with no 2 only. After a few minutes it turned over and ran. I was elated. It meant that the rings and valves were probably o.k. Sounds good huh? Well I put all the plug wires back on. And tried to start the engine. Put, cough, bang, dunk...It won't start. It back fires and sputters and dies. If I take all the plug wires off except no 2 it runs. If I take only number 2 off it won't run. If I try starting it with any other single plug it won't start.
I'm a friggin idiot. I will accept any advice that will help me straighten this mess out, short of driving it over a cliff with me tied to the steering wheel.
Anyway I just thought you would like to know.
vince
The plug wires are not in the right order. Find the firing order and rearrange them. Then set the timing. It would also be a good idea to replace the distributor cap and rotor.
At least I didn't answer your post with "Who Cares n/t".
There is a book called something like "VW repair for the complete idiot". I suggest you buy it.
Seriously, it is a very good book.
It would also be a good idea to replace the distributor cap and rotor.
I like this idea. If there was a short between #2 and another post in the distributor cap, it would explain a lot. I'll bet the short is between #2 and the next one to fire.
I would also put a pressure gage on all the cylanders. You'll know for sure about #2.
The book recommendation is a good one. I think it's out of print, but still see it in 2nd hand stores. By John Muir.
"If there was a short between #2 and another post in the distributor cap, it would explain a lot"
I could not imagine how something like my problem could occur. Wow I'm gonna check this right away. Thanks for the lead. In fact thanks very much for just responding.
vince
At least I didn't answer your post with "Who Cares n/t".
That's why I love you! 3 Bet buddy, I only said "Who cares?" because I was mad at "Pro" whoever he is. But do you know what, if he is SmoothB then it would explain a lot of things. I didn't like SmoothB either.
Thank you very much for the advice good buddy. I'm gonna try what you recommend. I'll let you know what happens. Drinks are on me when I mosy on down to Az sometimes this year.
Vince
az? I don't know. I don't think he plays here, and am beginning to wonder if he exists at all.
JG
I am hoping to exist in LA this weekend, where, according to Pro, I will not be playing 80-160 at the commerce.
Hi Vince,
So… you really are having some problems with your VW bus. I think the advice given thus far is good and may indeed fix your problem with the rough running engine. It does sound like the plug wires may be crossed. However, I would like to add just a few ideas to the mix.
If you are on a tight budget then I would suggest you carefully clean and re-gap the spark plugs. If the sparkplugs are not clean and properly gapped, then you may not know when you have fixed any other problems with the ignition system.
Once you install the new plugs or the freshly cleaned and gapped old plugs and checked to make sure your plug wires are routed correctly, start the motor. If it still will not run properly then have someone crank it for you while you check to see that each plug is getting spark. You can check this by removing the plug end of the sparkplug wire from each plug (one at a time) and allowing it to spark to the exhaust manifold while the engine is being cranked. I would recommend that you wear leather gloves while doing this exercise, especially if you are not used to playing with live sparkplug wires. If each plug is getting spark then it is time to check the coil to see if it is producing a good healthy spark. If the coil is producing spark then it’s distributor time. :-)
Remove the distributor cap and check it carefully for cracks. A small crack in the distributor cap can store moisture and provide an alternative path for the high voltage spark, either to ground or to another cylinder.
While you have the distributor cap off, reach in and gently twist the rotor on the distributor shaft, it should not rotate independently from the shaft. Now try wiggling the shaft back and forth to see if the bearings or bushings are holding the shaft in line properly. Now pull the rotor and check it for cracks and unusual wear. If you see anything suspicious, I would recommend you replace both the cap and rotor. While you are into the distributor, have someone crank the engine and confirm the points or opening on each dwell node of the distributor cam. Re-gap the points if necessary.
If it still will not run properly then wait until night or pull inside of a reasonably dark area, such as a garage (leave the garage door open Vince, it is not time to commit suicide quite yet). If the motor runs with someone at the gas peddle then have a friend to keep it running while you watch the motor as it is running. If it is dark, enough you will be able to see any spark that is jumping to ground before it gets to the plugs. Look at the coil, distributor and the plug wires. As an example, if you see sparks jumping some plug wires then it is definitely time to replace your sparkplug wires.
If none of this works, take two aspirin and call me in the morning.
William
And we call this a poker forum!
William,
Thanks so much for the great advice. I have printed yours, 3 Bet's and Phat Mack's advise. You guys are grrreat! Thank you again.
vince
P.S. you don't really think I would commit suicide now do you? Oh about keeping the garage door closed....
Hi Vince,
I just thought of one little safety issue that I thought I should mention to you. Many older Volkswagens have a potential fire hazard that should be addresses. Engine fires, because of poor maintenance, have destroyed more than their fair share of older VWs, so you should be watchful of oil, fuel and wiring problems back there. Do yourself a favor and make sure that both the engine and the engine compartment are well degreased. Also, make sure the fuel line(s) and compartment wiring are in good shape and replace them if they are not.
Once you get your engine is running well and even if your engine does not use any oil at all, you should still open up the engine hatch every once in a while and take a look around.
VW busses can be reliable vehicles. They will take care of you, if you take care of them.
William
A 23 year old 78 Bus? As an ex-VW home mechanic, I'd suggest finding a good small garage VW mechanic and making friends. This is just the beginning of your troubles. You don't have to take it to a shop for every little thing, but the advise from someone looking and listening is worth quite a bit. Don't be afraid to call a shop and ask for a mechanic. They are often willing to give free diagnosis over the phone.
Oh, and don't forget to keep your AAA membership paid up (free towing).
paint a sun picture on it and you can feel young again. nothing worse than a fat old bald guy driving around like he is a hippie from 1965. whats the world diverting to. anyway seabrook has the ignition part hammered right. but i think since it did run at all for you its a fuel problem. you probably messed up the firing order after your fix but try looking at the fuel system if you dont get results from the firing. if it has sat too long the carb is gunky and needs cleaning or the pump is going on you for starters. the fuel filter always needs changing as well. carry a tow chain along always and you will say thanks ray sometime. if all else fails check for a loose hub cap.
The biggest lie going today is that second hand smoke has killed 53,000 people (have you seen the signs?) how about the one that says 27,000 children develop asthma bronchitis and pneumonia due to second hand smoke. Fact: Second Hand Smoke Has NEVER Killed ANYONE. If you disagree WITH THE PROVEN TRUTH THEN KEEP YOUR BLINDERS ON. The SCIENTIFIC, extensive research study was released a couple of weeks ago. And the Strange thing was,that the above signs started to appear about a week later. So whats wrong with this picture? Whats my point Mr sunglasses? It's a Down and Out LIE> Yet The signs still are up. Now, would if I said something about you that wasn't true. And told 9 billion people through a mail and add campaign. Would you sue me for defamation of character? sure why not. Would that change the minds of the people that my add campaign convinced? No. or Not All. So you get money but everytime you walk down the street there will be people looking at you and remembering the Lie I told about you. This is what I meant when I said "this is how it starts"
Some of the legislators sieze these opportunities to control us WITH OUR OWN TAX MONEY> ALOT OF US WHO CAN SEE THE TRUTH ARE SICK OF IT. If the second hand smoking lie can continue to be per -petrated do you now see any lie can be made into A truth NOT THE TRUTH>>A Truth in some peoples minds with continued exposure. That's all I was hoping to get accross to you.
So before you start any campaigns against anything at the poker table, be advised that once the bandwagon gets rolling there may be no stopping it.And It Won't stop there. They have gone after Smokes, Guns, Suv's and make no mistake about it Alcohol is next. When they find something to go after they do. Don't start them on one of our favorite vices...poker. thanks for coming over.
(notthegreatone)
R.L.
Having individual hairs plucked off the back of my thighs probably would not kill me either. However, I would find it irritating and uncomfortable, much like second hand smoke.
Happy that my local poker rooms are non-smoking, Matt
PS. It is also a very interesting fact that when a vote was conducted by our poker room on whether to become non-smoking, a majority of smokers wished it to become so.
I have always felt that second hand smoke is probably beneficial to my health, and I congratulate you for helping the tobacco industry in bringing the truth to the forefront. My parents both passed away during the last year and a half, one from lung cancer, and one from emphysema. I am sure that the fact that both smoked for decades had nothing to do with their deaths. I am equally sure that someone breathing in that same smoke while sitting next to them has nothing to fear.
In the future, these posts should go on the other topics forums.
All I know is that I personally have suffered very badly from second hand smoke in the poker rooms. It was also why I didn't play any at The Horseshoe this year. It will be a pleasure when both The Mirage and Bellagio rooms go no smoking on June 1, and I look forward to The WSOP being no smoking next year.
Correction. You are on the Other Topics Forum. My mistake.
The link in the left frame reads Other Topics.
But at the top of this page, it reads The Gambling Exchange.
If these were the instructions on how to locate the Bellagio poker room, you'd be up in arms that someone is negligent in his work and leading tourists astray...
Actually The Bellagio Poker Room is very hard to find. There is only one sign in the whole place that even mentions poker and the room is located far away from the center of the casino.
.
Whether or not second-hand smoke has killed 53K people is not the point, I think. Secondhand smoke has been proven to have some very adverse physiological effects on involuntary smokers. If you doubt this I suggest you order your free copy of The Health Consequences Of Involuntary Smoking, a report of the Surgeon General, 1986. It is a 16-page summary of findings/studies compiled by scientists and subjected to multiple reviews by experts and distinguished scientists both in the U.S. and overseas. Your copy of this 16-page report, written in understandable terms, is freely available upon request from: -------------------------------------------------------
U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services
Public Health Service
Centers for Disease Control
Center for Health Promotion and Exercise
Office on Smoking and Health
Rockville, Maryland 20857 -------------------------------------------------------
Anyone who cares to actually get some facts on tjis subject is welcome to request a copy.
It is also a bit of a red herring to focus so exclusively on whether secondhand smoke is a proven killer, because it has conclusively been shown to be harmful. At the heart of the controversy regarding another study, the EPA study of later date, is the question of whether it actually kills. But I don't think any knowledgeable critics of the EPA study would attempt to argue that secondhand smoke presents no dangers or that it is safe even if they feel that it is not a proven killer.
It is well known that secondhand smoke causes serious physical irritation and discomfort to many persons, and studies have indeed shown that it is harmful in a physiological sense. Shouldn't that be enough?
"It is well known that secondhand smoke causes serious physical irritation and discomfort to many persons, and studies have indeed shown that it is harmful in a physiological sense."
"Shouldn't that be enough?"
Makes sense to me.
vince
I would just like to make shure that everyone here knows I am not the person who started this thread, nor do I agree with his statements, this person is obviously a troll, and I would like to think I am better then that
...cuz you shure done got him beat in de humer departament
Hey M,
"HuMMer" has 2 M's in it. I would have thunk that you would have reMeMbered that. Oh I get it, you have only 1 M on your keyboard. Where have I heard that before?
Vince
humor has one M and so duz humer
I make systematic spelling errors too.
...and if you followed his other posts you might have noticed some other tongue-in-cheek humor too.
Edward R. Morrow
Humphrey Bogart
John Garfield
John Von Neuman
Lawrence Revere
Desi Arnez
Arthur Godfrey
Feel free to append.
^
Q: Why did Sigmund Freud stop doing public speaking engagements?
A: It's pretty hard to understand anything said by someone who's had most of his or her jaw surgically excised. (I won't mention the drooling.)
Ah, the pleasure of a fine cigar.
I have sometimes wondered if there might be something "Freudian" involved when I see people appearing to enjoy keeping an unlit cigar in their mouths.
I'm inclind to think the fatality claims from second hand smoke are overstated. I think just gathering the data for such an analysis would be very difficult. No two second hand smoke situations are the same. But nevertheless, the stuff stinks like hell and is noxious to non-smokers so what's wrong with pushing them outside onto the sidewalk?
Main Entry: de·fen·es·tra·tion
Pronunciation: (")dE-"fe-n&-'strA-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: de- + Latin fenestra window
Date: 1620
: a throwing of a person or thing out of a window
- de·fen·es·trate /(")dE-'fe-n&-"strAt/ transitive verb
Poker rooms got the idea to go non-smoking because most people (including poker players) are not smokers and do not enjoy being around cirgarette smoke (whether or not it kills anyone is simply NOT the point). As in any business if most of your clients want something then you give it to them. Simple as that. No left wing conspiracy. And, sorry, there is no silent majority that supports smoking. The word "majority" implies that more people support something than the number of people who are opposed to it -- this is obviously not true about smoking. As much as you may want there to be some kind of conspiracy against the few "true americans" left (which you obviously have annointed yourself) there simply isn't. Get over it.
I don't think the guy was talking about second hand smoke. I think he was talking about the Truth and the aborration and presentation of such. thanks
r
I would think that the bigger lie is the one that the tobacco industry still puts out. They hid the evidence that they originally found about the health dangers of their product, and put health warnings out only at gunpoint. They market to children, because they know that their customers die young, and they need new young ones to take their place. They sell a hazardous product, and bribe politicians to keep regulation to a minimum. They tell the biggest lies in America.
I smoked for thirty years off and on, mostly on. Nicotine creates a very strong addiction. I haven't smoked a cigarette since October 15, 1991. With that monkey on my back, I found the cravings almost irresistable. The tobacco companies knew what they were doing: peddling to addicts.
you may outlive me, but I will have more fun.
smoking is not fun and if you think so it's the addiction talking...
Also, you don't make any argument ...all your doing is making a childish remark (i.e. I'll have more fun blah blah) b/c you are unable to defend your stance on an issue.
"all your doing...."
ooopps I meant "you're" not "your"
Ben
"I don't think the guy was talking about second hand smoke. I think he was talking about the Truth and the aborration and presentation of such. thanks "
funny how you and "the guy" that I was addressing have the same email address....
Posted by: Chris
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 May 2001, at 12:05 p.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 22 May 2001, at 1:00 p.m.
Posted by: Ricky Diamond (ace2ten@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 24 May 2001, at 12:44 a.m.
Posted by: Ben (bencu00@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 24 May 2001, at 10:30 p.m.
Posted by: Ben (bencu00@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 25 May 2001, at 2:18 p.m.
Posted by: Ben (bencu00@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 24 May 2001, at 10:33 p.m.
hey, its pretty darn hot here in phoenix, i was thinking about going over to san diego next weekend and playing at oceans 11. i played there a couple years ago, was just wondering what limits they spread there. i heard instead of the really wild 4-8 he games, they now have really wild 8-16 games. also do they have 7cs there? and is there still always a 2040he game going?
thx,
brad
Brad,
I played there a couple of times during the week I was out there it is a very friendly place to play. The stakes go up to at least 20-40 and sometimes 40-80. There was PL game going $1000 buy in when I was there. The card room is well run and the food is good. I would advise you to take the trip.
By Bro John could help you with more details if he's still on the planet.
paul
The 8-16 can be tough, a fair number of working pros grinding it out on a daily basis but they dont have the bankroll to go to 20-40. The 20-40 game is a better game, IMO.
The only stud game is high-low split, which is very occasionally $3-$6, but more often $1-$4 spread limit. The $20-$40 Hold Em is juicy if you can fade the swings. There is also $8-$16, as pointed out, and $4-$8. The games are kill pot.
l
Former U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno is considering running for Governor of her home state of Florida. Below is a URL to a newspaper article describing the situation she helped create in (meaning inflicted upon) the SouthEastern portion of this state, where she was a state's attorney for a decade and a half.
Note this statement:
"This is a culture," said Rolando Jacobo, a former officer who was sentenced to a year in jail for perjury in connection with the Hoban case. "This is something that was taught to me by the old-timers."
The "something" that is taught by "the old timers" is how to plant evidence upon a dead person after you kill them.
Note there is now an ongoing federal investigation of police murders in Dade County Florida, now that Reno can no longer control Justice Department activities.
Congratulations, MS Reno, for your "cultural contributions".
I don't know if this will appear as a hypertext link in the posted message. If not it can be copied into your browser. If that won't work [sigh] the article appears within www.sunsentinel.com:
http://www.sunsentinel.com/news/local/miami/search/sfl-dswat20may20.story
Oh, I see, Janet Reno spearheaded a policy of condoning police murders. Why dont you give it a rest? She's out of office and if she wants to run for Govenor of Florida, let those voters decide.
Quid custodiet ipsos custodes?/Who shall watch the watchers?
It's not irrelevant. Federal police attacked the Branch Davidians in Waco under her watch. They had good reason to believe that if there were to be any criminal prosecutions to follow, they themselves wouldn't be the defendants. The only prosecutions to develop were those of the surviving victims.
All those charged with murder were acquitted of the charge. Despite their acquittal they were convicted of lesser charges; some were sentenced to as much as 40 years in jail. After the acquittal, the jury foreman, Sarah Bain, issued a statement saying: "We jurors said from the beginning that we had the wrong people on trial..."
And we know what followed.
And I am a Florida voter.
"Check with Reno" The buck never got here.
clinton sucks and so did his whole administration.
liars and crooks ALL OF THEM.
IN THE HISTORY OF THIS GREAT COUNTRY.
She is a tired old woman who is way past her prime a joke and should just go away.
.
give W and John A. a chance they look to be getting the job done without all the hoopla.
You liberals really suck the big one.
Democracy died with the black op in Florida. We live under a non-elected military dictator. Of course, Chicago La Cosa Nostra members like you love taking part in murdering liberals like the Kennedys.
Well, seeing how Chicago Cosa Nostra members GAVE Kennedy the election in 1960...
yeah.....Florida was Democreatic bad karma. Maybe democracy is just a farce.....
What ever happened to Caro and his expose' on renouned poker cheaters? He was going to interview them or something. Did I miss it?
June-2001
GF has a convention in Chi town in a few weeks, and has invited me to come with. I won't make the trip unless there is some kind of reasonable poker near by.
I hear that there are boats in the area like Harrah's that have smoke filled, high rake games. Is this the case? Are there other games in the area making it worth the trip? Not sure if I will have acess to a car or not, getting there will be a factor so please pass along information concerning gettting there through other methods.
Also...I hear that soaring Eagal in MI is a pleasant place to play. How long is the drive?
My games of choice in order of preference is:
1.) pot limit anything 2.) 15/30 high low stud 3.) 15/30 HE, no kill
thanks!
Smoke filled is a thing of the past at Harras they went no smoking there is a PL stud game 40/80 HOSE and some 15/30 stud. Not much hi/lo being sperad. Rakes are 10% to $5 for most games.
Boarding times are on the odd hours and last 1/2 hour.
Kinish:
There are two poker rooms in the greater Chicago area. Hollywood Casino in Aurora, IL is about 40 miles west of the city. It is a small room, 7 tables. The games that are spread daily are 10-20 HE. Also 15-30 Omaha on Mon.'s and Fri.'s. On Friday's they spread 15-30 HE. On Thursday evenings - 20-40 HE. The room is non-smoking, The rake is high at 10% to $5.
The second room is Harrah's in East Chicago, IN. This is much closer to the city. Harrah's is also non-smoking. The room is a little larger, about 20 tables. They regularly spread up to 20-40 HE and do spread 10-20 stud. Quite often the games at Harrah's play with a half-kill. The kill is usually voted for or against by the table when the game begins. The rake is also 10% to $5 at Harrah's.
Soaring Eagle in Mt. Pleasant, MI is a nice room. They have 21 tables and spread many games. It is about a 5 hour drive from Chicago.
I really am not sure of transportation. Hopefully someone else can fill you in on that. Good luck, I hope this helps.
Matt
Matt, are you serious? That's IT for the whole Chicago metro area? Two rooms with less than 30 tables?
No wonder Rounder misses AZ so much! Cripes, even here in little ol' Edmonton - total metro pop about 900K, we've got 3 rooms, 12 tables in 1, 7 or 8 in another, and about a dozen in the third (haven't been to Argyll room in 2 years). Last weekend, I looked around Saturday at 3 a.m. at Yellowhead Casino and there were still 10 games going.
That's really incredible.
I would be the last person to say anything good about Harrah's. However, you make a big deal out of the "number of tables" in the area. What about "action"? Do you have three 20/40 Holdem games on the weekends, and two on most days of the week?
What you like to play is not spread in ANYWHERE, in the midwest. You would be wasting your time, driving 6 hours to the Snoaring Beagle, because you would be faced with a huge waiting list, upon arrival. Plus, they don't play what you listed. If you have an option, don't make the trip.
Greetings,
I will be in New York next month with my wife. I would like to see a Broadway play. What does everyone recommend? What is the cheapest way to get tickets?
Thanks,
Bruce
Go to this site, it explains well: http://americantheater.about.com/musicperform/americantheater/c/ht/00/07/How_Get_Discount_Tickets0962934675.htm
This will get you cheap tickets (half price, I think) the day of the show to a lot of shows, the ones that don't sell out (which will give you a big selection). It is a great deal.
The hot show of the day is The Producers, which is supposed to be the best thing to hit Broadway in years, but is mostly sold out and very, very expensive, $100+ per ticket.
Have a great time. If you feel like splurging on food, and like steak, try to get a reservation to Peter Luger in Brooklyn. Amazing. Also, there is a Vermeer (sp?) exhibit at the Met going on now.
My wife and I just returned from a long weekend in NYC. We saw two shows, both of which I recommend: The Full Monty (no memorable songs, but at least as funny as the movie) and Kiss Me Kate (Cole Porter, what else is there to say). We paid full price for our tickets in advance via www.telecharge.com.
At Times Square (and I think also near the World Trade Center) there is a Tix book which offers discounted tickets on the day of the show. I saw discounts of from 25% to 50% depending on the show, and I saw lots of reasonable shows available. I also saw a line that probably took a good hour or two to get to the front of (this was on a Friday and a Saturday.)
Have fun!
Chuck
The 1/2 Price ticket booth in Times Square (Its called the TKTS booth) has a pretty good selection. You can only get tickets on the day of the show. The booth opens at 3 p.m. for evening shows and 10 a.m. for matinees (matinees are usually only on Sundays and Wednesdays).
Most tickets are $45 (this is after the 50% discount). Also, a few shows are only 25% off.
If you want to get the best seats, you should get in line about 1 hour prior to the booth opening. If you go on Friday-Sunday, you won't have as good a selection, but there will still be lots of good stuff. Also, the seats that you'll get are normally front Mezzanine, which is the level above Orchestra. If you want good Orchestra seats, you're probably better off paying full price and getting the tickets through the box office, or telecharge.
Forget about getting tickets to The Producers, unless you know somebody or are willing to spent mucho $$$ paying a ticket broker. If a scalper offers you Producers tickets, they're probably counterfeit.
I was there for 2 weeks earlier this month and saw 3 shows:
Fosse - Musical revue highlighting many of Bob Fosse's famous musical numbers. Great show if you are into dancing.
The Full Monty - Highly recommended. Very Funny, with good music and good performances all around. The plot is almost exactly the same as the movie, except its based in Buffalo, NY, not the UK. Caveat: If you are easily offended or are sensitive to R-rated subject matter, I would advise you to look elsewhere.
Proof - Drama starring Mary-Louiser Parker about the daughter of a famous mathmetician trying to deal with her father's dementia. It sounds like depressing/strange subject matter, but this is one of the best plays I've seen in years. Great performances by the entire case. This will most likely win the Tony Award for Best Play next month.
Otherwise, there are lots of great shows still playing: Phantom, Les Miserables, Aida, Annie Get Your Gun, Kiss Me Kate, 42nd Street, Beauty and the Beast, Lion King, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (starring Gary Sinise) etc., etc.
Have a great time.
One, Two, Three, or more Cows in a Session??
Sheep I'll leave to Zee!!!!
ukw
of course down here cow tipping is a social activity, usually we do it after the goat fainting compitition
Cow Tipping! by Eugene O'Neil (inspired by the Beach Boys)
Well, it's after three o'clock so let's all skip our class and chug a beer! (cow tipping! cow cow tipping!) and then once we're really trashed, we'll find a field about a mile from here! (cow tipping! cow cow tipping!) cow tipping, let's tip a cow! oh baby cow tipping, I'll show you how! oh baby cow tipping, cow tipping every day!
We'll find ourselves a cow that's just standing there, fast asleep! (cow tipping! cow cow tipping!) Then we'll knock it to the ground, there is no other thrill that is so cheap! (cow tipping! cow cow tipping!) cow tipping, it's such a treat! oh baby cow tipping, it can't be beat! oh baby cow tipping, cow tipping every day!
We hurt a cow the other day, but we don't feel a bit of grief (cow tipping! cow cow tipping!) because it's only fun and games we know they're only walking slabs of beef! (cow tipping! cow cow tipping!) cow tipping, I love to play! oh baby cow tipping, what can I say! oh baby cow tipping, cow tipping every day!
Well you can really tell that we're a bunch of erudite colligiates (cow tipping! cow cow tipping!) when we can topple cattle to the foot of cow-heaven's pearly gates (cow tipping! cow cow tipping!) cow tipping! that's what I said! oh baby cow tipping! get it through your head, that I like Cow tipping, cow tipping every day!
My dad took out a second mortgage so that I could go to school (cow tipping! cow cow tipping!) I suppose when I flunk out that I will make him look like such a fool (cow tipping! cow cow tipping!) cow tipping, I just don't care! oh baby cow tipping, I just wanna be where I can be cow tipping, cow tipping every day!
George finally made a great move. He spoke at Yale Graduation, and he was excellent. He was very funny; genuinely funny. One could tell what parts of the address he wrote and what part others wrote. He is a great guy; too bad great guys do not necessarily make great presidents.
He is an unelected, military dictator. Not much different than say IDI AMIN, or Somoza, or Fidel Castro.
I understand hyperbole, but Idi Amin? That's a long way from being the beneficiary of the anomalies of the American electoral structure.
I don't like the idea of replacing pay down of national debt with gimmes to our richest taxpayers, abandonment of rational population policies, exposing irreplaceable wilderness to exploitation without proper risk evaluation or gloating over the refusal to normalize relations with Cuba.
The GOP is no longer the party of intellectual conservatism. In 1981, when the born-agains told Barry Goldwater, the architect of intellectual conservatism in the 50s and 60s, that he wouldn't be welcome as a true Republican until he accepted Jesus, the GOP lost all validity. The party of Lincoln is dead. The new GOP represents naked self-interest and knee-jerk religionism. They have no grand plan for our future, only an agenda of self-service without concern for long-term consequence.
How would I know anything? I was a Republican. As a young man I shook Richard Nixon's hand at a political rally in Ridgewood, New Jersey during the 1960 campaign. In the 1964 campaign I was college student working for Goldwater's election. In 1968 I voted for Nixon with my absentee ballot from the other side of the Pacific while serving my country.
My affection weakened in the 1970s, and in 1981 the GOP and I parted ways. I am now a conservative without a party.
Accept Mr. Bush for what he is: the head of a party that places the immediate perceived good of its membership ahead of the interests of the country in general and that is absolutely ready to deal in sub truth to dupe enough voters to get what they want.
Good analysis. The election, however, was a black op. The Bush contacts have had practice with these techniques overseas for years.
Roger,
The newspaper analysts (meaning _The Palm Beach Post_ versus _The [Miami] Herald_) disagree on the demonstrable preference of the electorate. It looks like the coin landed on edge and Katherine Harris screamed "HEADS".
We just have to endure it.
The key county was Palm Beach, which was 3 to 2 Gore, and some 19,000 ballots were disallowed. If you know something specific, please share it with me. Email is okay if you wish to preserve privacy. I will respect any privacy request. You can trust me: I was a Republican. :o)
Jake
I think that it's rediculous that the religios right has had to interfere with the GOP. They seem to forget about the seperation of church and state. The Christians feel that since they "know" they are the "real" religion to follow, they can make an exception and try to force feed their beliefs to everybody else.
Back from Vegas a bit worse for the wear but I’d do it again in a heartbeat. I’ll try to keep this entertaining.
The Games:
The 6-12 games at the Mirage (except for one short period) were the best games I have ever been in at that limit. I also lost the most I ever have in a 72 hour period. Overall, there was a minimum of 3 people with little HE skill in almost every game I played. Some did a great job distributing their chips amongst the better players. Others tripled their buy-in. It was unbelievable to watch at times as the most obnoxious, loud, fishy tourists raked pot after pot with cheese and longshot draws. Still, I persevered because of their presence. If I learned one thing over the weekend it was not to sweat my losses too much if the games were good. Believe me it got harder the more I got stuck but I feel like I played an A-/B+ game the whole time and left with my poker pride intact.
I played so many hands and took no notes so I don’t have much for analysis but a few notable hands.
Worst hand (scroll down if you hate these):
I am into my third $100 in a 6-12 game and have about $48 in front of me. First in late I raise with KK, button reraises, SB cold calls, I reraise, button calls, SB calls. Flop is 9 high with two spades. I bet, both call. Brick on turn, I bet, button drops, SB calls. I have $6 left and throw it in blind before the river comes. River is a spade. SB looks at me and says “I’d raise you if I could” and rolls over Ts7s for flush. I just say “wow” and walk off. Definitely the least classy thing another player has ever said to me at the table.
That hand kind of exemplifies my luck over the weekend. Another notable stat that I did keep track of: I had AK suited 17 times at the 6-12 game over the weekend and raised pre-flop every time, reraised a few times and played for 5 bets with 6 players once. It held up one time for half a pot (thankfully the 6 way one). More notably, not only did it only hold up one time but it only flopped a pair one time (never better either).
Most strange hand:
Late night 4-8 at Bellagio. My friends and I arrived at 1AM on Th/Fri but had no room until 10AM so we passed time in a loosey-goosey overnight 4-8 game at Bellagio. In this hand UTG raised and got three callers, SB drops and I call with 78s. Flop is 77Q. I check, UTG bets, three callers, I checkraise, all call. Turn is a 2. I bet again, everyone calls. I like my hand at this point. River is a 7! Board reads 77Q27. I (stupidly) say “I got quads I bet” and bet. Amazingly, all call. Their hands: QQ (flopped a full house), 22 (turned a full house), AA (rivered a full house). I was in 2nd place on the flop and 3rd on the turn. My guess is that everyone was letting me drive and waiting until the river to make a move. Still, not one person thought they had the best on the end and raised! I guess my betting and my mouth killed the action. Still, if I had the any of the other hands I would have lost a lot more (assuming I chased with the 22 or AA).
2nd most strange hand:
3-6 4AM at Mirage. I have AA and raise, get SB to play with me. I bet the flop and get called. On the turn the board is TT3J. Its late, I'm tipsy and stuck and just want a pot so I bet the turn and turn over my hand. "Call if you can win, I say". He calls. River is a J. He wins with J2. He says "I only did it because I have a plane to catch". I know I should be glad he called but when your luck is awful sometimes you just want a boost. Rrrrrrrrr. (No lectures please, showing cards is not a habit).
I did have the pleasure of meeting one 2+2er who recognized me right after joining the 6-12 game one afternoon. We chatting about the forums here and the Vegas games. Thanks for the chat, we’ll have to play together more next time around. I looked for Mason at the Mirage on the weekend nights but did not see him.
Spent a bit of time watching the final table of the WSOP but it was super crowded and just made me want to play more. Saw one hand where Hellmuth put the SB all-in when he open raised on the button. SB called, BB dropped. Phil had AQ, SB AK. Hellmuth ships half his stack next door after the cards come out.
Best quote from the weekend:
A guy is drunk and semi-belligerent in the #3 seat at an evening 6-12 game. He is an awful player but on a good run and his mouth is running like crazy. Every hand he is in he says something like “If I win dealer, I’ll tip $10”. He never tips more than $5 but is pretty generous (he was certainly a very wealthy person, albeit a very stupid person as well). Finally a hand comes up where he is heads-up with my buddy on the turn. He says “how about the winner tips $50,” my friend wit fully declines. So the guy drops this gem:
“Well, whatever you tip I’ll double it by 20”. The whole table cracks up and I am sure he had no idea why.
I better wrap this up.
KJS
Thanks for the interesting report. You got in a lot of poker! Did it take long to get on the tables? How did you go about finding out others were forum posters? Regards, Dave
Dave,
I only ever had to wait about 30 mins. for a seat and I played all hours of day and night. I thought the WSOP would flood the rooms but hardly anyone on the Strip even knew it was going on. If you are willing to play lower while waiting you are in good shape. The Mirage poker room staff is excellent and do a great job getting new games going and trying to minimize waiting periods.
Re: posters. I posted a description of myself before I went. About 4 hours into a game on Friday a guy sits down and says "I know that guy, watch out for him." I knew immediately how he knew me. After the hand he came over and introduced himself.
KJS
.
Good report. Nicely done. I hope you do more in the future.
KJS,
It was a pleasure to meet you. I look forward to talking with you on your next trip.
If I learned one thing over the weekend it was not to sweat my losses too much if the games were good.
IMO, this is the most important thing any player could ever learn.
D.
I enjoyed meeting you too. Let me know if you ever travel up to the Pac NW. I may be back in LV in September and will be sure to look you up again.
Thanks for the compliment as well.
KJS
Well, maybe, it was something I read on thegoodgamblingguide, main page, not on their forum.
If true it will be interesting to see how that along with the smoking ban will affect European turnout, and if the supersatellite fees will go up.
My guess is that the prize pool next year would be more than enough to give me the $2 million....
In this issue of Card player (in the player profile section) the player states that he is a POKER/KENO?? professional. Now I thought that keno could not be beaten. I'm also positive I've seen another player state that he was poker/keno pro. I guess my question is can Keno be beaten? Or are they just collecting loosing keno tickets to offset some of their tournaments wins?
Irony perhaps?????????
Cheers,
Keith
There used to be a Horseshoe advertisement on the back cover of Card Player Mag. that showed up pretty regularly, it showed Cowboy Wolford holding a pair of dice. In small print at the bottom of the page it referred to him as a "Professional Craps Player."
nt
A job interview I am gearing up for will consist mainly of probability theory problems. As a student of the 2+2 authors, I expect that I will do very well, but I'd like to have some practice, just to make sure.
Can any of you direct me to web sites that offer problems along with explainations?
Thanks in advance, Ryan
I once interviewed at a similar position. One of the questions they asked that I still remember (and correctly answered) was:
We are betting on 100 coin flips. Here is my offer:
If coin is heads 40 times or less, I give you $10
If coin is heads 41 times or more, you give me $1
Question 1: Will you play this game (at what amounts to 10-1 odds)?
Question 2: If no, what odds will you require to play?
Answer later...
David,
I'll take the bet. I should win 40% of the time, so if you paid me $1.50, we'd have a "fair" bet. For $10, I'll play as often as you like.
40 times I win $10 for a profit of $400 60 times I lose $1 for a loss of $60 Over 100 trials, I make $340, or $3.40 per trail.
Do you think we can manage 500 flips an hour as Sklansky suggests in TOP?
Thanks for the problem, Ryan
We are flipping 100 times. After 100 flips, we count up the # of heads and tails. If 40 or less heads, you get $10. If 41 or more heads, I get $1. Not $10-$1 on every flip.
Your answer is VERY far from correct. Your answer makes sense if I say "Let's bet on a coin flip. It will come up heads 60% of the time. I'll give you 10-1 odds". That is not the question being asked here.
The question I am asking is rather more complicated than you seem to think.
David,
I believe I see the flaw in my reasoning... based on that assumption, after one million tosses, there would be a 40% chance of tossing heads only 400,000 times. Obviously, after so many trials, the actual results would be much closer to the expectation.
I have thought of two ways to solve the problem.
One is to list each possible combination and count my winners. The trouble is that there are 1,267,650,600,228,229,401,496,703,205,376 (2 to the 100th power) combinations. This cannot be the best way.
Of course, many of these combinations are identical. For example, there are 100 ways to throw heads exactly one time, and 9900 ways to throw heads exactly two times. If I were to add up all my winning combinations, and divide by the total number of combinations, I could arrive at a correct number. But even this would require handling 40 numbers individually, and I don't believe its the most direct way to solve the problem.
If it is the best way, I don't suspect that I'll go through the trouble of doing the arithmatic. If there is a better way, I am interested to know what it is.
Ryan
Ryan, you are really struggling with this, and need to get some basic probability books for remedial study.
It should be obvous to you that if flipping a coin 100 times, although you expect about 50 heads, there is only a small chance that you will flip 40 or fewer. 40% if the "go home in last place" punter answer.
What is my best guess? I think you'll get 40 heads or less fewer than 10% of the time. To prove it, recognize it is a binomial distribution, with n=100, p=.5, q=.5, mean = 50, and calculate the SD which I think is sq root npq or 5. So it looks like a 2sdeviation variance to get so few heads (10 less than the mean). This will hit much less than 10% of the time, so 10-1 looks like good value to take a bet.
Your homework is to double check my math and review 1 tail vs. 2 tail tests of this sort.
100 flips
Mean is 50H 50T
Standard Deviation is 5
Therefore 40H is 2 standard deviations from the mean
If you know your Z tables, you realize that
Within 1 st.dev of mean: 66% Within 2 st.dev of mean: 95%
However, you are only getting one end of the st.dev variance; so only 2.5% (100-95 divided by 2).
Therefore you need 39-1 odds to play this game You will only with 2.5% of the time, or 1/40.
Ryan, I'd agree you will need to read some more basic probability books. Your odds of flipping 40H 60T is nowhere near 40%.
David "Brain just about exploded when asked this question during a job interview" Ottosen
Yeah, I admit to being lazy in my anwer, not looking up the z table, and not checking whether your asked a 1 or 2 tailed question.
But I stand by my answer being correct, just overly abbreviated.
Q: Isn't your answer still not 100% correct, since your sample is so small that your binomial discrete pdf cannot be substituted into a continous function exactly, and if you try to do so, you should use under 40.5, not 40 for your z tabels and therefor 9.5/5 sd's?
Ps. It's been a LONG time for me since I used these (10+ years)
:)
David,
Thanks for your help... obviously, this one is way over my head. I think (and hope) that the problems I'll have to solve will be much more basic. I have found several sites with good information and other problems I have been solving for practice, so I feel much more comfortable with my understanding of probability theory than I did a week ago... I feel my "chances" are good, but I'm not sure how to bound the problem...
Ryan
Geez,
you mean people know these tables off the top of their heads???
I would just tell him
P(H < 41) = P(H=0) +P(H=1) etc +P(H=40)
= (100 C 0)+ (100 C1) + ... (100C41).
You flip a 12 sided die and a 23 sided die. You sum their total. What is the prob it is odd?
See below for answer:
Answer: 50%. Solve by inspection in 5 seconds since obviously an even sided die has a 50/50 chance to be odd or even by itself, so the odd sided die is irrelevant to the problem......
This may not be intuitively obvious to some!
GIVEN FACTS:
Die A has 12 sides.
Die B has 23 sides [12 odd sides, ie 1,3,5,...,23, and 11 even sides, ie 2,4,6,...,22].
KNOWN FACTS:
Even+Even=Even
Even+Odd=Odd
Odd+Odd=Even
The total possible results after summing up the results of both dices are 12 * 23 = 276
CALCULATION:
6 even sides of die A combined (added with) with 11 even sides of die B produce 66 even results.
6 even sides of die A combined (added with) with 12 odd sides of die B produce 72 odd results.
6 odd sides of die A combined (added with) with 11 even sides of die B produce 66 odd results.
6 odd sides of die A combined (added with) with 12 odd sides of die B produce 72 even results.
SUMMING:
66+72 even = 66+72 odd.
QED
fezzik,
Thanks, that's a good one. It took me well over 5 seconds to "prove" your answer, but I got it.
Ryan
Hi,
This is an update to my VW Bus project.
Recap. The bus ran on 3 cylinders.
Vince messed with the bus.
The bus ran on 1 cylnder.
Vince got advice from 3bet, Phat Mack and William.
Vince messed with the bus.
The bus runs on 4 cylinders. Hooray.
The bus stalls after idling for a few minutes.
Vince will mess with the bus again.
Update to follow.
Advice appreciated.
Vince
"The bus stalls after idling for a few minutes."
some random suggestions.
1. air/fuel mix is too rich - check the choke and then monkey with carb tuning screws. need less gas in the mix.
2. vapor lock - gas tank is not properly ventilated - remote possibility.
wouldn't it be funny if we could all go help Vince fix the bus at the same time?
Make A New Plan Stan, Set Yourself Free Vince
ukw
The bus stalls after idling for a few minutes.
Does it start right up again after it stalls? Can you smell gas in the engine compartment?
Have you checked gas filter, air filter, fuel pump?
Its clear that the president's policies are seen as catastrophic to the majority of the public. The desertions of millions of patriots that wish to save this country from the money grubbing usurper will roll like an avalanche from Jeffords, to the off term elections in 2002, to 2004. Maybe we can have a special prosecutor appointed at some point (once the Democrats control both houses) to thoroughly investigate JEB Bush and the stealing of the election in Florida. Bush stealing the election is the best thing that could ever have happened for the future of the Democratic Party. People now see what a prostitute he became to special oil and gas interests.
Well, we won't have any Alaska Oil drilling shoved down our throats.....
I have a general question for any Canadians, such as Daniel Negreneau (spelling?), who live and play poker in the U.S. How does Daniel permanently stay in the U.S.? What kind of visa would he have? Does he have to come back to Canada every few months? What about taxes? Where would he pay taxes, etc.
I am thinking of taking a year or two sabbatical from work and moving to Vegas and seeing how it goes. Maybe I'll be bust in a couple of months and come back but I want to find out. Any answers or suggestions would be appreciated.
Vince read a little VW material last night.
Vince adjusted the points today.
Vince didn't read so good.
Vince got lucky and figured out how to set the points.
Vince thinks the above is true. Ha Ha!
Vince spayed the carb with gum out!
Vince emptied the fuel pot on the carburator.
Vince prayed to the VW god.
That's funny cause the VW god is German.
It's funny cause Vince's ex wife is German.
Vince turned the ignition on.
VW sputtered and did not start.
Vince tried again. If at first..
VW started and revved way up there.
Vince let it idle for a while. VW kept running.
Vince put it in reverse. VW burned rubber backwards.
Vince put it in drive. VW went forward fast.
Vince parked. Adjusted idle down a bit!
VW idled, albeit unevenly.
Vince had a weight watchers dinner. Angel Hair Pasta.
Vince went out and tried it again. He did not believe.
Vince turned on ignition. VW started.
Vince sat in idling VW, ableit unevenly, almost wept.
Vince had to turn VW off. VW didn't stall.
Vince to try VW idle, albeit unevenly, in the A.M.
Vince thanks those that helped and those that prayed.
Vince.
Let your barber become a stranger. If one more person asks for spare change I'm gonna be sick.
It sounds like a real investigation, possibly with informants, wiretaps, etc. has been going on at the high level games in Vegas. Until actual charges are filed, comment seems premature.
Why are comments premature? I for one am very interested to learn all I can about who may be cheating me out of money. I don't need to see an indictment for that.
The warning signs filled the mind of the Texas Hold'em Junkie. He had been in the Valley of Patience (VoP) for several months and the stress of the ridged playing requirements in the VoP began to take its toll. He began his journey into the VoP on the advice of his financial advisors. They assured him, if his results did not improve he would be band form the Hold'em tables for a very long time.
He had been a live one for so many years. The truth was games were put together quickly when the word arrived he was heading for the casino. Changing his playing style, so he would blend in with the residents of the VoP, would not be easy. But he was determine to stay in action.
The grind of the never ending release, was not easy for our Hold'em Junkie, he felt like a caged animal wanting to be released from the bondage of patience, power, and position. But he was on a quest of excellence, no back sliding to the playing style of any two will do. He embraced the release and played the waiting game.
It seemed like an eternity in the VoP before he won the first hand and then winning his first game. The agony of being patient paid off and the Hold'em Junkie was proud of his first win. The VoP seemed friendlier than his first impression, and with a win under his belt he looked forward to the next game.
Winning became the norm in the VoP for the Hold'em Junkie, he began to think he might take up permanent residence in the VoP. He went hunting for a condo, but the VoP Board of Directors informed him two weeks was not a long enough sample of his ability to play in the VoP. Permission to buy a condo in the VoP was denied.
The Hold'em Junkie accepted their terms and tightened up his game even more. His financial advisors were pleased with his results. Weeks turned into months and the Hold'em Junkie was dating Lady Luck on a regular basis. As everyone knows in the poker community Lady Luck likes her men tight and aggressive. Winning became a for gone conclusion with every ride to the casino. How could he lose? It wasn't possible with his new playing style, he was playing in the VoP and winning. It doesn't get any better than that!
When the winds of fate turned after several months of winning. The Hold'em Junkie was ill prepared for the loses he was about to receive. His mind set was winning, so when Lady Luck split, he was at the mercy of the real residents of the VoP. He tried to keep a stiff upper lip, but the tears swelled in his eyes and the predators sensed his weakness. Like a pack of hungry carnivores they swarmed the Hold'em Junkies bank roll.
It took only three short weeks for the predators to take a third of his winnings. The Hold'em Junkie snapped under the pressure and returned to his old playing style, any two will due. Tilt, tilt, tilt, and the predators knew there was fresh meat to be devoired. The Hold'em Junkie turned to the only god he knew. Dear all mighty poker god, help me, he cried! Show me the way, do not forsake me! The poker god rarely answers a Hold'em Junkies cries for help. The moral of the story is, stay focused on patience, power, position. Short term losses can be over come in the long run as long as you are tight and aggressive.
SPM,...counting on the long run...
www.latimes.com/news/comment/20010522/t000042732.html
I noticed that no Bush supporters have posted replies here in defence of George W. They probably don't know how to read anyway.
I will never understand how anyone could support Bush. He is a complete moron! This article shoots down the theory that,
'Ok, I admit Bush is a moron and doesn't deserve to be president, but he'll surround himself with good people.'
Bzzzzzzt. Wrong answer! What a screwup!
I was shocked and flabbergasted when I read this. Now I know nothing will surprise me.
..and so would've Bradley, McCain, Lieberman, Buchanan, Jeffords, Hatch, Daschle, Clinton, Rodham, Nader or Rehnquist.
Cowardice-blindness towards The Failure On Drugs crosses all party lines in national politics.
Didn't you just love Slick's interview in Rolling Stone where he said that it may be time look at decriminalizing/legalizing marijuana? The interview took place a month after he took office. SORRY, I meant a month before he left office.
BFD. ...yaWn..zzzt..hmph.snoreZZ.....
Not true. Gore is an honorable man. Bush is the first deserter ever appointed president. All you conservative fascists must be crying that Jeffords showed some common sense and integrity.
didnt clinton desert the entire country during vietnam??
I am taking off to AC early in the morning, for the first time. I am looking to play holdem mainly however if there is great stud action i will play (in particular I would love to find a stud 8 or better game.) My comfort level goes up to about 25/50 I will play 30/60 if the game is good. Can any one tell me what are the best games in AC (level and location). BTW---if there are any pot limit games with blinds no bigger than 5/10 i also would be interested.
Thank you,
Eric
The Taj is the only room with significant action above 10-20. There is a pot limit hold'em game that has been running at the Sands on Friday night. The Taj generally doesn't have stud 8 or better. That game is spread at the Trop, but I am not sure what the limits are. The two biggest rooms (by far) are the Taj and the Trop.
Trop spreads a couple 8 or better games.Usually the limits are 15-30 and 20-40.They also started a pot limit game starting Friday evenings approx. 6 o'clock.Blinds are 5 and 5.
:-)
I'm headed to the Orleans to play the open 7/5.Trying to find out information on registering for the Caro/Johnson poker conference on 7/6.Please help
Kerry
You can contact Bonnie Damiano at (888) 999-4880 or (702) 655-0919, or by e-mail to Bonnie@cardplayercruises.com.
More information can be found at www.cardplayercruises.com.
Good Luck
Howard
Playing a wild PL O8 - your fas hand you make the nuts and scoop a 2K pot.
What do you do.
1. Play a few hands get a headache and cash out.
2. Figure you are in a great game and stick around.
My vote is for taking the money and heading for the cage. But that is just me.
BTW - I don't consider games with BIG pots to be the best games but that's another story.
John Finn says: "steer a few pots their way, and raise the stakes."
JG
.
happened to me just last week. got to poker room real late saturday night (4:30 am), sat down in a short handed stud game, won a 1200 pot right away, then got called to a lower limit holdem game -- and went!
not much money on the table and i came to play the holdem game anyway.
brad
^
nt
Saw Mike Caro playing 80-160 at Commerce a few days ago and noticed that he doesn't observe players as much as he claims one should. For those of you that don't know, he always preaches "don't look at the flop!!!!! Look at the players and find tells!!!!!". Well I noticed him staring at the flop just like everybody else, he looked up only rarely at the players (never once during the flop). Maybe he's just lazy nowadays.
,.,.,.,.,.
Good point. With practice, you can perceive bigger chunks of visual cues with peripheral vision than with direct vision. Huck Seed, O'Neil Longson, and Berry Johnston stare directly at other players very infrequently.
.
in one of caro's tapes,books or videos he specifically talks about covering his eyes but still observing opponents...gl
Well he wasn't doing that either......the game was 3 handed, Caro was sitting in the #1 seat and one of his opponents was in the #9 seat, peripheral vision and hiding behind your hands is not going to be effective at all to see somebody at that angle.
Can anyone tell me what the rake at the 5/10 or 10/20 stud tables are at Foxwoods? It's been awhile since I played there, and I was just curious.
Thanks.
IdiotVig
At 10-20 it is 1 at $10, $1 at $20, $1 at $80, and $1 at $160. I think 5-10 the rake is the same amount at half the pot size.
The following paragraph may be of interest to some. It was copied from MSN.com's e-magazine Slate. Certainly the tactics of the Democrats are incendiary and agitating as well. I have to wonder though, once the election is over, what's the point? A sore winner?
The General Services Administration concluded that outgoing Clintonites had not ransacked the White House during the presidential transition, as unidentified aides to President Bush had insisted, the Kansas City Star reports. The flap began in January when a Washington Post fronter and other media outlets reported that departing Clinton staffers slashed telephone and computer lines, covered walls with lewd graffiti and pornographic images, and left obscene messages in copy machines. But the allegations of mass destruction, which came from unnamed Bush White House officials, were never backed up with proof and were only obliquely referred to by Press Secretary Ari Fleischer during briefings. Reviewing the Prankgate stories for Slate in January, Joshua Micah Marshall suggested that "maybe the new administration had no evidence of a campaign of vandalism." The real story, Marshall wrote, "was the new White House's smearing of their predecessors and Fleischer's refusal to put up or shut up when it came time to start giving details."
Its clear that when Bush first came into office that he directed a smear Clinton campaign to take the focus off the fact that he was illegally elected, and that he represents military dictatorsship in America. Bush is not a nice guy. He is extremely vindictive. Just ask John McCain and Barry Seal.
A post today from RGP:
We are hereby withdrawing from participation in the previously announced RGP interview on the subject of poker cheating. These are our primary reasons:
1. One of the principals that we intended to interview has acknowledged that he left a voice message on the answering machine of a well-known Los Angeles-based player. Although this principal has explained his choice of words heard on the voice recording, it could be interpreted as intimidation or worse. Paraphrasing, the principal says that Mike Caro is going to conduct a "bombshell" interview and that it will put that player and others in a very bad light. Then, he ends his message with the words: "We're negotiable." Mike Caro is not pleased that his name was used in this context and believes that his further participation in the interview might be seen in a way different from what was intended. Caro and Dalla were willing and fully prepared to assist in the interview process up until this fact became known to them.
2. We fully understand the seriousness of these allegations and the implications for poker. In fact, we were greatly disturbed by them. Therefore, we thought it best to proceed cautiously and prudently. To ignore the allegations without following-up and doing a preliminary investigation would have been entirely inappropriate. Through a series of personal interviews we conducted with the principals, we came to the belief that the interviewees were very well-informed on many aspects of cheating history, scamming technology, and potential dangers in modern games. We considered this an exceptionally rare opportunity to provide inside information that would not otherwise be available -- both to us and to the public. However, in recent days one of the principals has begun posting under the screen name, "Little Old Lady." We believe that by doing this, he is trivializing the importance of this interview. It is not a joke; it is not something to be giddy about; it is a solemn matter that we were willing to risk our professional reputations to pursue.
3. We believed RGP would have been the appropriate forum on which to proceed with the interview. However, one of the principals contacted a specific poster on this forum, after pledging to Mike Caro not to do so until after the interview had concluded. This resulted in a public spectacle and further eroded our confidence that the interview could remain objective.
4. We fully understand that this type of public airing could be bad for the poker economy -- and to the industry as a whole. But we believe that possibility is overwhelmed by the potential benefits -- assuming we proceeded in a responsible manner that would serve to shed light into some of poker's darkest corners. But the fact is -- we simply don't have the resources to investigate scandal, corruption, and cheating without widespread cooperation. We were disappointed in the lack of enthusiasm we received from the industry as a whole. Perhaps this had to do with the timing and the fact that our efforts happened just before and during the World Series of Poker. We still are expecting to continue to cooperate with cardroom staff and management and to urge them to be even more diligent in keeping games secure.
Accordingly, we are withdrawing from participation -- sadly and reluctantly. We believe the allegations could have come forward in a way that would allow the insights and allegations to be made and for the interviewees to be cross-examined in an impartial manner. We hoped the interview would remove the risk of pure speculation that could harm innocent people, because we intended to be prudent in our questioning.
The principals have expressed their intentions to go forward without us, and we hope that they will heed our advice and conduct themselves responsibly. And we hope that somehow, someday soon, players and casinos will find a workable way of banding together to continue the fight for ethical poker.
-- Mike Caro and Nolan Dalla
This is a total cop-out on Caro's part. first he starts off by generating a tremendous amount of buzz and rumor mongering and then offers a lame-ass excuse about someone "trivializing" the interview. What the hell does he expect from the internet? He is way out of line saying he doesn't want to hurt the poker economy. He has already given legitimacy to the claims of cheating in card rooms and now he hopes the entire issue will go away. He has done way more harm to the poker economy by brining attention to the issue and then holding back "secret" information. It already looks like a cover up and the damage is done and it is more severe than had he gone forward with the dreaded interview in the first place.
Mike Caro started this crusade publicly about three years ago. He claimed that colluders were cutting greatly into his win rate but he never did provide tangible evidence other than to say that he really is a better player than his win rate suggests.
It's unfortunate that he didn't follow through. I guess this has to be filed away in the list of projects that Mike has started but has yet to finish. I admit that I've been guilty of the same thing myself.
It's easy to take Nolan much more seriously. What a fantastic guy... top notch character, honesty, I would trust him with my credit cards anytime. And his heart is really in the right place. You should have seen how he cared about and tried to save Stu. He has been known to chase a windmill occasionally, however.
I hope they really know what they are talking about and it actually is something to get excited over because this really isn't good for poker. I enjoy a good, fun game at the Mirage as much as the next guy. Many of us are asking for proper due diligence and a high degree of responsibility here.
The VW bus idles without stalling.
Vince took VW bus on test ride.
10 miles on 495.
Cruised at 65.
Drove to Auto Zone for exhaust parts.
Has exhaust leak.
VW bus ran great!
One issue, timing.
Vince timed statically to TDC.
VW bus has Cetrifigul Distributor.
Book timing %7.5 BTDC for Vacuum Advance Distributor.
Experts say set my timing dynamically to 30 BTDC.
Vince doesn't want to do this, VW bus running good.
Advice please.
Vince
You probably have the timing too far retarded. Disconnect the vacumn hose, plug it, and set the timing per spec. It's ok to set it at 30 at full advance if you want, but not necessary. Bus will run better and use less gas if it is timed correctly.
While at the parts store, pick up a spare clutch cable. Buses were notorius for breaking them.
Hey, is everybody dead?
Or are you all just in bed?
This is a chat forum
And, as such, must be fed!
So wake up your sleepy head
Get your butt out of bed
And post til there's a quorum
Or til everybody's dead!
Vince
Vince,
I think you meet the qualifications to write lyrics for rock bands.
I'm working on a very long LV trip report, just so you can read it.
Good Luck.
Your original composition? I like it. It woke me up.
Alden
I'm writing this to both our forums and RGP.
Evidently on Tuesday we will be hearing some sort of "expose" on cheating. Before that happens, I would like to reiterate and clarify my position on one form of cheating, namely partnerships in the middle size games in casinos. I have often stated that I have seen little or no evidence of such partnerships. However, I want to make it clear that I am not so naive as to think that partnerships are not a significant threat, especially in bigger games OR in middle size games where only one such game typically goes.
I have said that partnership strategies are almost certainly not happening very much in the games that I play in because the players themselves police those games. (Not so much because management would know how to catch collusion.) However, the players themselves would only be able to spot rather flagrant collusion activity. More subtle collusion strategy would not be so easy to catch. (The exception would be on the Internet where the site can review all hands that are played. Thus an expert player can notice oddly played hands that would point to subtle collusion.)
Because subtle collusion (which involves more folding than raising) only adds a moderate amount to your hourly rate, it does little good in the hands of a less than expert player. On the other hand, excellent players who are also subtly colluding would make it very difficult for even great players to beat a game where that was going on. The reason I do not believe I have encountered very much of this cheating -- namely experts subtly colluding -- is not because of my faith in the honesty of my fellow man, or because of my ability or others ability to catch it. Rather it is because expert players would face a lot of downsides in choosing such a path. One obvious downside is the danger of eventually getting caught. (If for no other reason than they are consistent winners and usually playing with the same people.) Another downside is that they must trust their partners not only to get a square count, but also to never divulge their malfeasance FOREVER. But the biggest downside is the fact that these partners become obligated to play at a certain time and place, and cannot choose their games as they could if they were playing honestly.
Given all of the above downsides, the extra amount an already good player could win by subtly colluding is neither worth the risk and may not even be worth any more money due to lack of game selection. HOWEVER, notice that much of the previously mentioned downside does not exist, even for middle size games, if there is only one such game available. In that case it no longer looks suspicious to be playing with the same players and you are giving up nothing by not being able to select your games. When I have stated that I personally have not encountered collusion to my knowledge, I must remind you that I was speaking of games where there was almost always a selection of games at the same stakes to choose from. But I have not played in casinos where there was only one middle size game. In these games, it is far more plausible that there could be good players subtly colluding.
When it comes to the very big games, the situation, at least in theory, is even more dangerous. Not only is there only one game to choose from, but the game is frequently so tough that even expert players are not guaranteed much of a long run profit by playing their best honest game. Furthermore, the stakes are so high that the small extra edge achieved from subtle collusion (which adds up to a lot of money) along with the non guarantee of a long run win via purely honest play might very well tempt even champion players without scruples to engage in such behavior.
I have absolutely no knowledge that this is going on today, and believe that the big games which I see are honest. But David tells me that he's fairly sure it did go on 20 years ago. So it is not inconceivable that it is still going on somewhere. (Though I would be shocked that the high limit players that I know are engaging in it.) On the other hand, for the reasons already mentioned, it would not be totally shocking to me if it came out that subtle collusion was occurring in medium or even fairly small games where there was no game selection.
Frankly, the main reason that I am writing this is if any of Tuesday's revelations involve present day partnerships and do prove to be true, I don't want some people (you know who you are) saying "So now what do you have to say Mason? Are you ready to eat your words?" Actually no. My words have always been about flagrant collusion or any type of collusion in middle size games where there is opportunity for game selection.
Good post. There is an irony regarding this interview and the way it was handled by Mike Caro. At this point I would be amazed if they were given a lot of credibility.
had a big overnight trip planned for the weekend. Desination was the Mokolumne river deep in the Mokolumne wilderness. slept in on Saturday morning but no problem. figured I could still hike into campsite in time for a good 3 hours of evening fishing. best time to fish anyways. Traffic was pretty horrendous getting out of the bay area. no problem. I had good tunes. reached the turn off to the trailhead. road was too steep for my two wheel drive pick-up so I had to hike an extra 3 miles. still no problem. I am young and have my health. hiked to the end of the road to what I thought was the trailhead. problem was I didn't have a topo map. I set off on what I thought was the trail. here's the situation. I am at the top of a very steep canyon. the river is in the bottom of the canyon 3500 vertical feet below. The trail I took eventually came to a dead end in the middle of nowhere on a ridge top. I was forced to bushwhack and I had to make a choice about which side of the ridge I was going to drop off. I made my best guess about where the trail should be and proceeded to bushwhack down a nasty steep hillside covered in Manzanita brush and granite boulders. It was very, very slow going. I finally got low enough so that I was in the timber. It was nearing dusk and I continued downward. If I found the trail I would hike in darkness to the campsite. I was not going to continue bushwhacking in the dark. I never found the trail so I pitched my tent on the only flat spot I could find. I was literally in the middle of nowhere. lost in the woods. the last time I was lost was the opening day of hunting season 7 years ago. In the morning all fishing plans were abandoned as there was no way I was going to bushwhack down the river and then try and bushwhack my way back out. I'm telling you the terrain was brutal. finally made it back to the truck around 11:00am. I was totally wasted. I love nature. on drive back home I stopped by the ranger station and looked at a topo of the area. I chose the wrong side of the ridge to descend. Guess I'll get it right next time. Those fish are pretty safe with anglers like me out there.
B,
Did you find any rock formations outside your tent in the morning? Any stick figures hanging from trees?
I camped in Yellowstone for a week in the midst of the theatrical run of Blair Witch Project. Some joker actually came to my site in the middle of the night and put a ring of rocks outside my tent.
Seriously though, I'm glad the weather was not severe and you were able to get out OK. There are plenty of weekends for fishing. Guaranteed you won't get lost again.
KJS
I don't even need wierd stick bundles or rock formations to freak me out. I'm afraid of the dark.
if i told you what Boris does you would really wonder about him getting lost in the woods.
seriously Ray, I was lost as hell. I knew how to get to where I started but I sure didn't have a clue as to how to get where I wanted to go. The last time I was lost lost in the woods was the opening day of hunting season on 1992.
x
Hey Ed I, got any fish stories of your own yet? May is usually beautiful month in Montana. its gonna start raining come June.
Went to George Town Lake today. Wanted to get my father-in law into trout for first time. It was first time I fished bait in 20 yrs. Caught 5 small fish(10-14). Rivers have been running high and I haven't fished. Salmon flies started on Rock Creek and I am working on trip to the Missouri next thur. I'll post if I go. Its hard to be a fisherman and work too. I understand better now why I waited until age 46 to take my first full time job.
The rob the country blind tax cut has been passed. Bush's wealthy donors get their payback. The rest of working Americans get squat. Now that no surplusses will exist to pay down the deficit, the debt will grow. This man is taking America down a road to bankruptcy. In Texas, they now have deficts where they used to have prosperity. Hopefully, the puclic will open its eyes further, and throw out the majority of the Christian fanatics in the House of Representatives in 2002. With resistance within normal lines of voting the crooks out, this country will survive the Bush military dictatorship. Of course, he could lose the election (as he did in 2000) again in 2004 and just refuse to go.
Sorry but he will serve two terms as pres. Get used to it.I tolerated your constant sex scandal and the biggest tax increase for the last eight years. Now it's your turn to tolerate the honesty and the dignity a real man brings to the white house.
He will seve 40 years as dictator for life. He already has destroyed the constitution. His political idol is Joe Stalin and Fidel Castro. He is the most morally bankrupt crook ever to occupy the office.
He deserted the Texas National Guard. That is true integrity.
Ask John McCain how much integrity Bush has. Bush has zero. A war hero(John McCain), gets totally libled by a deserter(Bush) in the South Carolina primary. I'm a moderate Republican, and if Bush runs in 2004, I will vote for any Democrat (accept Ted Kennedy) over Bush. I am not alone.
On May 29th I was in Mississippi playing cards. And all my posts include my email address (so I can get hate mail direct.)
Its clear the Bush/Cheney energy cartel is gouging Californians, and preparing to gouge the rest of the country this summer , too. These two have huge conflicts of interests in their current posts. Rob the country blind is an accurate description. They are thiefs!
...."gouging California" How does this relate to the tax cut? Or are you just whining because you lack the common sense to move out of the smog state?
The only people stupider than whining Californians are the idiots in Massachusetts who keep voting in fat Teddy the "Swimmer" and the idiots in DC who voted in crack-head Marion Barry for mayor
I mispelled thieves. It was ridiculous. Dr.Wogga is a very nice man.
What does being a Christian have to do with the tax policy you dislike?
natedogg
Please, please, don't confuse me with the facts! I'm voting Democrat.
Ah, where do you think the government funds came from in the first place? By taxing the wealthy donors of course.
The middle class and lower classes shouldn't get squat - because they didn't pay squat. This is simply a return of unused seized funds. It is not free money.
Democrats didn't seem to mind racking up huge defecits while they were in control of the legislative branches. Now, they seemingly want to pay down the debt. Yeah, right!
I actually wouldn't mind using the money to pay down the debt instead of tax breaks. However, you ever know a politician to not spend money that is available? Hell, you ever know a politician to not spend money that is not available?
I would never confuse you with some knowledgable, informed voter. You need never worry. I think the DNC should consider requesting that you change your affiliation to Republican.
The first comment was sarcasm. It pains me to think someone considered me a democrat - even in a forum post. :)
Why do you think I am unknowledgable? What factual problems to you have with my analysis?
How do you post on RGP? I am able to access it and can read all of the posts but when I try to post myself it doesn't work and I can't seem to figure it out. Any suggestions?
My sentiments exactly!!!
please..... help!
For those interested, we are now taking orders for POKER ESSAYS, VOLUME III. You can click on the books link in the left hand column for more information. The book should be available in about a month.
While you and I may have differences about how certain hands should be played, I think your essays are among the finest in poker. I have volume I and volume II and they are terrific. I am ordering mine now.
just ordered mine had to find my old conjelco pword...they would not let me reregister, or i couldn't figger it out...anyway keep up the good work...only 19.95 at conjelco...gl all
I'll take one!
Vince
for you only vince, maybe save your money as with that hunka you drive all the knowledge in the world wont help if you break down enroute to the poker game. maybe get an old tyedye shirt instead and some hippie chick will give you a lift or tow your van.
You might as well take a TOP too while you're at it, Vince;-)
I'll be buying one as soon as it hits the shelves. I like to patronize our local gambling store - Gamblers World in Tempe, Arizona - to encourage him to continue carrying all the good books.
BTW, he carries them all, including all of yours, and 2+2 is prominently displayed. A good store for your products.
If you don't mind, please post again when it is on the shelves.
Dick
Vince has been lamenting the lack of posts here lately, so I thought I would help him out. Judging from the number of posts he has been making here and on rgp, and also because he has emailed me a couple of times this weekend (I hope Badger doesn’t find out I posted this without getting Vince’s permission first), I think Vince has been really bored.
I decided to come and play in LA this weekend. I got a great rate at Embassy Suites through the net. $75 per night, and it's only six minutes from Hollywood Park.
The first day I ran into Rick N. and then I played 40-80. I spent most of the afternoon folding, but that evening I won a huge pot. Over $2200. I beat out AA and KK. What did I have? A4 of course. Soooooted. Did I make a flush,you ask? Well, no, but what difference does it really make? (I really thought the Ace was one of my outs). After that, I got real tired (of everyone staring at me) and went back to the hotel.
The next day, more of the same. Hassan Habib sat next to me for a while, and told me about how much he spent in entry fees at the WSOP, and didn't cash out anything. It was kind of hard to feel sorry for him though, especially after I saw him playing 200-400 at the Commerce later that night. Winning or losing, Hassan is one of the good guys of poker.
I went to the Commerce to play 80-160 HE, but the list had about 30 names on it, and there was only one game. I had to wonder why they didn't start another game, but maybe they knew that most of the names were dead.
From there, I went to the Hustler, where they are spreading 80-160 1/2 holdem and 1/2 stud. It was way after midnight by the time I got there, and the game was down to seven handed. Shortly after I got in, it dropped down to five handed. I had the feeling I was the only one there playing his own money, and after about an hour I was down $200 and decided to quit for the night.
Today I went back to HP hoping to play in the 75-150 mix, and hoping even more that Caro would come and drop off another $7000 like he did a couple of days before. But they never got that game going so I played 40 all day again. Had my typical run of lousy cards, and finally gave up before I became too frustrated. I just finished watching Castaway in the hotel room. I can't believe Gladiator beat it out for the Oscar. Or Traffic for that matter.
Anyway, now I'm off to the Hustler again, and if nothing is happening there, I'm going to the Bike to see if the tournaments they're having this week have created any good action.
I can't believe Gladiator beat out 5 or 6 movies for the Oscar. Crouching Tiger was head and shoulders better than it as well.
if you understood how well they captured the personalities of marcus arelius and commodus, as far as current scholarship percieves them, as well as how they presented maximus as the ideal roman. ( check out the stories of cincanatus and the early parts of the aneid, especially the destruction account of troy, for an idea of this) then you would understand that this was the first good historical movie to come out since midway and the only good classical era movie.
I had to laugh about the responses to Brett's post. A trip report from LA and all anyone comments about is his remark about a movie.
Reminds of conversations I have with my wife.
Any bets on how long it will last?;-)
By the way if it were Rush Limbaugh instead of Sharpton I would post the same query.
Actually, I read that Sharpton has lost weight in recent years. He is striking to call attention to his protest of the U.S. Navy practice bombings on the Puerto Rican island of Vieques and to his arrest for that protest.
Looking down from my keyboard, I can't help thinking that a self-imposed hunger strike might do me some good too;-)
Now maybe he won't have to wear those stretchy jogging suits to hide the blubber. Too bad he wasn't going on a silence strike
n/t
nt
LOL
...
since the two best cardrooms(IMO) in vegas are going non smoking soon, i dont have a full reason to boycott vegas anymore. so this winter i pledge to go and play there again only at those two places- mirage and bellagio. besides there are a bunch of people i havent seen in awhile and it could be fun. the only downside is that i may get stuck having a drink or dinner with vince as he is kind of pesky. but who says poker is all gravy.
Good to hear. Ray Zee back in the saddle.
If they would only make the sports book non-smoking at the Bellagio everything would be great. All of the smokers will stand outside the rail in the sports book and that place will be cigarette infested. Maybe someday.
Why would the government of the United States have an energy policy at all? What does that mean? Isn't that what the market is supposed to do? Every minor crisis and non-crisis results in the federal government commandeering a little more power, never to yield it back.
JG
A good question and point. One thing the market will probably not do, however, is protect the last irreplaceable wilderness areas on planet Earth.
the reason for govt. is protection for what we cant do ourselves. like police,fire, roads and brdges, nat. defence and such. also to protect us against monoply type situations. energy kinda falls into that spot as there are a small number of providers in each field and they tend to collude whenever its in their best interests. thats where we need the help. they have stifiled alternate sources such as wind power and solar power. what we need is them to keep us on track and stay out of day to day affairs. m is right in that if business wasnt constrained there would be no more nice places as everything would be a polluted mess as with the mining industry.
Actually, it was deregulation that lead to the current gouging in California. No shortage of oil exists. No shortage of electricity exists, either. The wholesalers now are unregulated because the government gave up its control of prces, and prices have gone up 2000% in the last 12 months. Those are the facts.
Sure the wholesalers became unregulated, but the energy providers remained regulated. They had to follow state enforced price ceilings and could not purchase from the wholesalers more than a day in advance. That is not deregulation by anybody's definition.
How does that change the fact that the wholesalers are gouging the market? How does that change the fact that Cheney and Bush are still heavily invested in these same wholesalers?
This is another example of a person who is incapable of thinking about any complex issue beyond the first, most simplistic level.
Unfortunately it seems that most people in this country fall into that category. I wonder - are they sentient? Or do they just wander the earth like automatons.
I want to know. Seriously. Please elaborate.
JG
Why would the government of the United States have an energy policy at all?
As Ray Zee pointed out, energy production is vulnerable to becoming a monopoly because so few companies control it. Some of you believe that a completely free market economy is the ideal of capitalism, and that any deviation from it is the introduction of imperfection.
Nothing could be further from the case, as the last 150 years have taught us. So, to prevent big industry from ruining the land and water and monopolizing things, the government controls certain industries.
What does that mean? Isn't that what the market is supposed to do? Obviously it is not the 'markets' job to keep prices from becoming damaging to the economy, or to prevent the power companies from belching too much polution.
See above.
Every minor crisis and non-crisis results in the federal government commandeering a little more power, never to yield it back.
Oh, give me a break. Do you want to go back to the way things were in 1875? I really don't think you do.
God, when the real idiots start spewing it just makes a nuisance for the rest of us. Please just keep your stupidity to yourself from now on and don't tire us further.
"God, when the real idiots start spewing it just makes a nuisance for the rest of us (idiots). "
i agree.
brad
Not many years ago, you would've been considered an agent provocateur : only that kind "defends" a position in such a way that alienates and practically turns the audience against it.
Of course, you would've also been summarily shot - but there you have it: Stalin's long gone.
Oh, how blessed we are to have people post here who can use words like "sentient" [watching lots of _Star Trek_ are we?] and "automaton" to provide the required ridiclue of those who pose questions which open the door to discussion of topics of crical importance.
Do the world a favor: don't raise children.
Can someone tell me what the government's energy policy is? I read several pages of reports in the NYT, and still don't have a clue as to what problems they've identified, and how they intend to solve them.
during some economic summit, (then) president clinton was quoted as saying something like the U.S. pressured OPEC (i think it was opec, maybe not, some oil producing somebody) to limit production of oil to drive up oil prices so that (somebody , i forget who) could pay off their IMF loans. something like that.
as chomsky points out, the business press is usually pretty straightforward.
brad
We don't have a totally free market economy. Government has a role in providing solutions to problems that free markets can't solve themselves in a mixed economy such as ours. With that said I believe your question is germane. Are the free markets failing to provide an appropriate solution to the energy situation? If so why and if so is the proposed energy policy appropriate? If government needs to at least help provide a solution what should an appropriate policy be? It would seem to me that both the demand side and the supply side have to be addressed in order to maintain our current standard of living.
Without the DOE 50,000 skill-less people would be out looking for jobs that require that they do ACTUAL WORK! That egregious injustice would be totally unacceptable.
Q. What does the DOE actually do?
A. Two things:
1. Contingency planning for energy crises that may arise.
2. Interfacing with other government agencies so our alert-readiness posture remains uncompromised.
Of course in the private sector these activities are referred to as daydreaming and gossip.
A bear walks into a bar in Billings, Montana and sits down. He bangs on the bar with his paw and demands a beer.
The bartender approaches and says, "We don't serve beer to bears in bars in Billings."
The bear, becoming angry, demands again that he be served a beer.
The bartender tells him again, more forcefully, "We don't serve beer to belligerent bears in bars in Billings."
The bear, very angry now, says,"If you don't serve me a beer, I'm going to eat that lady sitting at the end of the bar."
The bartender says, "Sorry, we don't serve beer to belligerent, bully bears in bars in Billings."
The bear goes to the end of the bar, and as promised, eats the woman.
He comes back to his seat and again demands a beer.
The bartender states, "Sorry, we don't serve beer to belligerent, bully bears in bars in Billings who are on drugs."
The bear says, "I'm not on drugs!?"
The bartender says, "You are now. That was a barbitchyouate."
Dale Evans would not let Roy Rogers wear his boots into the house. One day Roy came home with a brand new pair of cowboy boots. He took them off outside then went in to get Dale to show them to her. By the time they got back to the porch the boots were gone. A little later Roy found one of his boots all chewed up in the bushes. That evening Roy and dale were sitting on the porch when a big ole cat went running by with the other boot in his mouth. Dale said, "Pardon me, Roy, ain't that the cat that chewed your new shoes.?"
Three Native American women were sitting around talking. One was on a hippopotamus skin. Another was on a bearskin. She had two sons. The last was on a buffalo skin. She also had two sons. The first woman was large and weighed 250 pounds. The four boys weighed 40, 50, 70 and 90 pounds.
Therefore: the squaw on the hippopotamus is equal to the sons of the squaws on the other two hides.
[I am sorry if you did not know that up until 200 years ago, hippopotami roamed the Great Plains in vast numbers]
(You have to understand geometry to get this one)
nt
A husband and wife were having dinner at a very fine restaurant when this absolutely stunning young woman comes over to their table, gives the husband a big open mouthed kiss, then says she'll see him later and walks away. The wife glares at her husband and says, "Who the hell was that?" "Oh," replies the husband, "she's my mistress." "Well, that's the last straw," says the wife. "I've had enough, I want a divorce "I can understand that," replies her husband, "but remember, if we get a divorce it will mean no more shopping trips to Paris, no more wintering in Barbados, no more summers in Tuscany, no more Infiniti or Lexus in the garage and no more yacht club. But the decision is yours." Just then, a mutual friend enters the restaurant with a gorgeous babe on his arm. "Who's that woman with Jim?" asks the wife. "That's his mistress," says her husband. "Ours is prettier," she replies.
every once in a while someone will ask if they can buy me a drink (usually theyre ordering, sitting right next to them, and they ask if i want anything).
invariably i deadpan something like "no thanks, i dont like to mix", at which point they look at me like im speaking a foreign language.
now, i think this really funny, but it seems like no one ever gets it.
so, is this funny or not?
brad
what language are you speaking? I don't get it. tell us some more of your suck-out stories. those are really funny.
i dont like to mix. like im on some drug and dont want to mix it with alchohol. you really didnt get it?
anyway, ill post my greatest suckout ever on medium limit.
brad
I didn't get it either.
natedogg
i thought you meant you didnt like to mix with people. now thats funny.
yeah, its funnier that way.
best of all, i dont have to reword it.
brad
I didn't think it was funny until you explained what your particular take on it was. i just assumed it meant you don't like to drink alcohol while playing poker, i.e mix the two.
YIIVFBWTTA
Kashuntite
No
.
I didn't get it and even after you explained it I wasn't ROTFL
Yea, I agree. In fact I think the comment is in really bad taste. I mean who wants to remember all those times you slammed a 6 pack and then took a couple bong hits. Sure enough you ended up puking your guts out and making an ass of yourself. I won't even get started on my experiences with Vicadin. So Brad, if your reading this, please don't get all holier than thou about not mixing. I know not to mix.
i've been in la for almost two months and i havent seen you. where have you been hiding?
i'm in the yellow chip games at the commerce most days. come by. say hi. bring your student. first round is on me.
scott
scott,
I'd like to hook up and will be playing with E at HWP tomorrow. We haven't played much at the Commerce lately except I play a little 9/18 Kill Omaha. We tend to play all over though so perhaps we have just missed. Email me with your schedule and we may be able to hook up for a cocktail or two.
Regards,
Rick
Badger posted on RGP that there was going to be a meeting regarding the toke pool. Anybody got any details?
Regardless, I make it 10-1 that the WSOP is held at Binion's next year. At least I got one final table in..(don't mind getting my first bracelet at the Mirage, tho.. :) )
Several people at R.P.G. are commenting that the little that has been said so far is no big deal, and that they promised to shock us but didn't deliver. I have to admit I felt somewhat shocked, particularly the alleged involvement of casino management. I had never heard of the problems that were supposedly common knowledge some 20 years back, so it's all new to me(illuminating chemicals on cards, holy $h#t!).
Wait until they finish. A lot of people will be licking their wounds.
The way they are dragging it out, they might never finish.
Honestly, if these guys (GCA) want to be taken seriously, they really need to change their tatics.
They are pratically illiterate and their posts reflect that. They have also posted some just plain stupid stuff ("AA is DD" "GO GARY GO GARY GO" and other posts) that really hurt their credibility.
I understand they are not to be judged on their english composition, grammar and spelling skills, but they have chosen a written forum to air their information. They need to find someone with some writing skills to tell their story because with each post they come off sounding more and more ingnorant, instead of more and more credible.
This post is kind of a continuation of the disagreement i had with another poster (Ben) on the General Theory forum. I really don't care if he replies but might want to rethink some of his statements.
After reading the sports page this morning and reading about the SUPREME COURT ruling in the Casey Martin vs. PGA, I withdrawl my previous statement that Ben was right and I was wrong.
I made the statement that if someone like Hellmuth wanted to sue Binions for not letting him wear his headphones, or if a card room banned sunglasses and someone sued, that the supreme court would probably rule it a violation of civil rights to ban these specific things.
Well, Ben thought this was ridiculous and basically laughed in my face by saying I was silly to think the Supreme court would side with me or anyone else with this view.
With this said, the Supreme Court with a 7-2 vote stated that Martin could use a golf cart while playing because he was disabled and walking was not a fundamental part of golf.
Now Ben may be right that the Supreme Court may not rule it a violation of civil rights to ban sunglasses or headphones at the poker table, but I think the Martin case has set a legal precident for Hellmuth or anyone else to sue if they could provide legal documents from doctors that stated they had low attention levels (perhaps ADD) or weak eyes that needed protection.
Furthermore, I dont think it would be that difficult for someone to find a doctor that would agree that is is hard to attain attention levels high enough to compete properly in a noisy environment, and that headphones can help. Also, those who play 8-12 hours at a time know how much strain the eyes can take due to the bright lights, so documentation from a doctor stating that sunglasses can protect the eyes and allow them to function properly for longer periods of time is not that unreasonable. With the Martin legal precident and the easily attainable proper documentation I think it would be realatively easy to win a court case of this nature.
Other opinions welcomed.
the only thing that might be different is that i think all professional golfers are part of PGA or something else like that. i mean, you cant just pay your entry fee and play in a professional golf tournament.
so there might be some legal difference there, ?
brad
Good point about paying your entry fee, but I think there are a lot of similarities between the PGA and a casino. The pga is an private organization that has the right to make its own rules (no carts, stroke rules, play of game, etc) and a casino is a private business that has the right to make its own rules (dress code, conduct policy, banning headphones, ect).
I just think the Martin case has a lot of similarities that could be used as legal precident against a casino.
Personallhy I play better whan I walk - maybe it gives me a chance to think about my next shot or shake off the last bad one - but I am a few strokes better when I walk. Until last year I was playing to a 7 hindicap so I know a bit about the game.
I don not think a cart is any part of golf - shooting shots IS - the seniors use carts. I would probably be a couple of strokes better IF I used a caddy all the time but I don't.
I hate to see the high court get involved in things like this but I am happy for KC and hope he wins a couple before he loses his leg which is sure to happen some day with the illness he has.
Just my 2 cents worth.
What kind of whacko gets upset about shades?
Citizens tend to think of the law as the promulgation and application of clear rules. In fact much of it involves the application of relatively general standards. When the public becomes aware of an example of this, there's always a response that the courts only work well with rules, and will apply the standards in some fashion that no sensible person would. Bishop's post is example of this kind of thinking.
n/t
I think the supreme court decision was wrong. It suggests that if pro golfer has a sprained ankle and gets a temporary handicap parking permit, he can then demand to use a cart in his next tourney. (Since A.D.A laws would apply).
Anyone who says walking is not a fundamental part of golf - or isn't just plain difficult - has never played 18 holes on a hot day.
I could buy your argument if each of these "Hot Day Super Walkers" did not have someone carrying their freaking clubs for them.
Sorry friend, you are completely wrong.
No player could reasonably claim to the Supreme Court that they are unable to play without sunglasses or headphones, and that by having these items barred, the cardroom is preventing him from earning a living. Maybe if the player had severe light sensitivity and could back it up with a parade of doctors, that would get the sunglasses in.
Casey Martin's ruling was plenty controversial as it was, and he had a legitimate medical reason. Sunglasses and headphones would be laughed out of the Supreme Court
People try to make these issues harder than they are.
Headphones should be banned because someone could (and probably has) used them to cheat.
Sunglasses you can't ban because people might very well need darkened lenses for one reason or another. Simple.
I think people are making way to big of a deal of the Martin case. Golf is a game. I do not think walking is an integral part of golf at all.
Golf carts are a commonly used and accepted tool in the sport of golf. If the PGA or anyone else thinks walking and physical stamina is that important in golf, then golfers should be required to carry their own bags, not have someone carry them for them.
If walking is that much a part of golf, then carts should be banned altogether at every level.
People have tried to compare it to baseball, saying "Well, if someone cannot walk, but they can hit, they should be allowed a certain amount of time to make it to first", or the Judge's (Scalia I think) saying that a kid with ADD should be given 4 strikes because it is 25% harder for him to hit than a 'normal' kid.
Bull. Running IS an integral part of baseball, football, soccer, basketball, whatever. It is NOT an integral part of golf.
If other pros say they want a cart too - fine, get a cart you big baby.
.
No, but this certain poster named Ben was having a fit and going on and on about why sunglasses should be banned from the poker table.
I was just asking a hypothetical question about, if a person would win a court case IF they were ever banned. And if a person could win a case against Binions because the banned headphones at the WSOP.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/05/30/jenna.bush.02/index.html
What's the point of being a college freshman if you can't drink? Man, if my dad had been president, I'd've had problems... Note the judicious use of 911 service by restaurant employees.
BTW I think the dark-haired twin(Babs) is better looking.
At least these 2 are a little easier on the eyes than clinton's 1st prop Chelsea. I loved the way he would trott her out when he needed a shield.
at least Chelsea wasn't a lush.. wannabe tramp...she had class.....
Was up to will we.
I thought kids were off limits but you fucking liberals are so filled with hate you will grasp ANY straw if you think it will agvance your cause.
Since when were kids off base? Ross Perot's daughter was slandered by the Bushes. You yourself make disparaging remarks about Chelsea. She, if not her parents, was a model American citizen. The sad truth about the Bush family is that The current ocupant of the whitehouse is a dry drunk. He was a child of a person in power. That person allowed him to dodge the draft, desert his unit, snort cocaine until he was 40 year old, and never have to be held accountable for his actions. The Bush daughters learned their drinking behaviopr by watching their parents.
By the way, what year did Chicago organized crime associates stop being Democrats? 1963? 1968? 1980?
Rounder,
What to any of the Clintons have to do with the underage drinking stories?
I know you are depressed that Clinton is no longer president, but you are going to have to get over it and move on someday. Sheesh.
.
n/t.
Does anyone on here know how long of a drive it is from Boston to Atlantic City? I want to go for a weekend but I don't want to pay airfare.
Thanks for any responses.
Peace
Goodie
I live in NY. To Foxwoods 2:45. To AC 2:15.
Hope this helps.
maps.com
It takes about 6 hours.
Depends what day and what time you are planning to go. Remember summer is upon us and the Garden State Parkway can be brutal on a Friday afternoon with the advent of "shore traffic." Also the Woodridge Toll Plaza off the NJ Turnpike leading to the GSP can also be bumper-to-bumper and can add an additional hour to your drive. I live right off Exit 16 W on the NJ Turnpike and can usually make it to the Taj (124 miles) in 2 hours with normal traffic/no pit stops. Add summer traffic and you can tack on AT LEAST another 1-2 hrs.
My advice to you would be to leave on a Thursday after early am rush hour traffic and you can make it there in 4-4 1/2 hrs. Avoid Friday's at all cost.....Sundays going north on the GSP can also pose the same problems as everyone who's been "down at the shore" will now be heading home...If you can stay over on Sunday night...you'll save yourself a lot of traffic stress. LOL :o)
How many cheaters or potential cheaters are there among the frequent poker playing public and professionals? Probably a good idea to searate the pro's from the amatuers. So how many professional poker players are chreats? How many would cheat if given the chance? How many are just to honest to ever do something like that? Are amatuers and recreational players more likely to cheat?
I don't cheat. I won't cheat. I have on occaision seen other peoples cards during a hand when they did not protect them. These are people that habitually flash thier cards. I don't consider it cheating to look when they flash cards but it might be. Most of the times I have told them that they were flashing their cards. In some instances I have used the information for my own purposes. I usually lost the hands in which I gained this type of information. I won't do that again. I swore I would always alert another player when ever a situation like that arises. I have kept that promise. I wonder though that if my back was to the wall how I would react. After all I am human.
Vince
As a poker player you are entitled to use all information that is made available to you as long as you are not doing anything unethical to obtain that information. If someone exposes their cards to you such that it comes into your normal field of view and you are not going out of your way to see their cards, it is perfectly proper for you to use this information. Furthermore, you are under no obligation to inform a player as to what he is doing. This is his responsibility as well as the dealer's. A similar situation occurs when you have picked up a tell. For example, you notice that a player bets with his right hand unless he is bluffing in which case he bets with his left hand. You are entitled to take advantage of this fact and you are not under any kind of moral obligation to alert him to what he is doing.
I agree with Jim here. Even so, I have often told someone when they flashed their hole cards. If they kept doing it, however, I didn't tell them again. I have not told everyone who flashed their hole cards. Actually, I tend to tell people more often if I like them. If I don't like them they're on their own from the start. If you never tell anyone they are flashing their hole cards you are not actually doing anything wrong, as long as you don't crane your neck or do something like that in order to see.
Most of this kind of stuff gets back to what many players forget and what is perhaps the Fundamental Commandment Of Poker: Protect Thy Hand.
everyone has their own standards and maybe shouldnt judge others if they dont fall within what they feel is right. if you see someone elses hole cards its tough luck for that fool to show you but at the same time your friends and opponents around the table may not know that you have proprietary info that hurts them as well. same is true as if you have a piece of someone at the table. in many games its allowed and not wrong. but to not tell the others you are in effect playing partners as you will tend to make plays that cost the others money. against a table full of strangers you may act differently than against people who will be around you all your life. its all personal.
Here's the deal, I have enough pride to think that I don't need to see someone's hole cards in order to win so I'm going to make sure that they protect their hand in this situation. I'm certainly not under any obligation to do this but as Ray says I am costing others money at the table as well. I'm just silly enough to believe that I don't need this information to beat em and I DO NOT want to win at all costs. If I can't win honorably (by my standards) I'd rather lose and I mean it.
Relying on my own experience, I would be willing to say, YOU WILL NOT FIND A CHEAT, under the following circumstances: A public cardroom, on the daytime shift, in games 10/20 to 30/60, Monday through Thursday. That's all I can say on the subject, and I believe it to be FACTUAL.
How many cheaters or potential cheaters are there among the frequent poker playing public and professionals?
Out of the 14,436,792 frequent poker playing public and professionals there are 3,121,108 cheaters or potential cheaters.
Probably a good idea to separate the pro's from the amatuers. So how many professional poker players are cheats? 856,121
How many would cheat if given the chance? Same number. they always have a chance.
How many are just too honest to ever do something like that? 3,121,108 - 856,121 = 2,264,987
Are amatuers and recreational players more likely to cheat? Yes.
.
Over the last few months I think Tommy Angelo has become the most valued contributer to this forum.
His responses to people are always polite, instructive, and insightful. Even when the original post is from a player with skewed concept of holdem.
He contributes thought provoking material, and does so on a regular basis. He doesn't give terse 5 word responses and doesn't make anyone feel stupid or unworthy of attention.
Tommy, you make this forum.
(Jim Brier's no slouch either - I think he gets 2nd place.)
I like Tommy's posts, too. He gives me the impression that he has a lot of experience in a wide variety of games and situations.
What's wrong with 5 word responses?
I agree, I always make a point of reading Tommy's post of every thread. I don't think it would be fun to play in the same game with him. While it may be fun, but I'd lose too much money.
i agree tommy has a way of being independent without being arrogant, but my guess is if the correct play required arrogance, tommy could pullit off gracefully...gl and thanks...
That's right, hate! And if he doesn't return my red slippers I'm gonna get him and Toto, that stupid dog of his! HeHeHaHA... come here my pretty, Tommy!
Vince
He doesn't know anything about fixing VW buses.
The next thing you might want to check is the exhaust system. Sometimes a manifold leak can send gasses into the passenger compartment.
Hi. Where are the best (cheapest) places to play and stay when in Vegas? And flying from Australia, where will I have to fly to? Can I fly someone near and catch a bus to Vegas? Also is the cost of living (meals) expensive? In Australia, a decent meal costs about $5.00 USD. A can of coke goes for $0.70. Love to hear from you via e-mail or posts. Thanks guys.
Meals, etc. are not cheap in Vegas. With the brutal value of the Aussie dollar I think you will find it expensive. I was in Sydney last year and found it to be an expensive city (at least compared to Vancouver) but after your exchange rate is taken into account you will find that Vegas is more expensive than Australia.
As far as flying I would be very surprised if you cannot fly directly into Vegas. The airport there is very big and I'm sure Quantas or somebody flies into Vegas. The airport is also very close to the strip... about 5 minutes so try to fly into Vegas. If not all the airlines fly into L.A. and you could catch a connector flight or I think a bus from L.A. would take about 3 hours.
As far as where to play I think the only place I would play now is the Bellagio and Mirage as, effective today, they are both non-smoking. But aside from this, they are the two best card rooms which have the most action. The lowest games are usually 3-6.
Have fun.
How many 20/40 Holdem games are (generally) spread during the weekdays, at Mirage? Weekends?
I stayed there a couple of weeks ago and during the week there was sometimes one 20-40 game sometimes not. A couple of times it started but broke up. It seemed to do a little better on weekends, occassionally there were two 20-40 games on weekends.
Vis a vis the Bush daughters, how is it that a country like the US which purports to value freedom so much allows people to vote when they're 18, but not to drink until they're 21? At what age can you join the military in the US? Old enough for a ballot but not a beer - how can that be?
It all seems crazy to us in Europe, and having both gone to university in England and spent a lot of time visiting friends at colleges in the US I can say with confidence that alcohol abuse/binge drinking is MUCH worse among US college students than among their equivalents in England or, say, France. The fact that booze has to be acquired "illegally" just seems to give it so much more mystique and attraction in the US.
What do y'all think?
RFL
That was the argument that got kids the vote here(U.S.A.)in the late 60's (or early 70's, I forget)to be lowered to 18 years old: "We're old enough to be sent off to war, but we can't vote for the people who are sending us there." I think we should have kept the voting age at 21, and raised the militaty entrance age from 18 to 21, but the military would never go for that because it's just so much easier to mold the mind of an eighteen year old than a 21 year old.
IMO, I don't think America's drinking problem with those under 21 has to do with the supposed "mystique" of it being just out of their reach. I think it has to do with things like our 50% divorce rate, a way out-of-balance emphasis on careers vs family. Both of these things allow peer presure to become a much bigger problem also.
I'd like to raise a few more points, but I have to go, maybe later. see ya.
The one who played Mike's girl in Rounders, was recently quoted as saying:
“I’ve had people ask me what I’ll do if it doesn’t work out, and I’ve never, ever had a Plan B. And I always think that the only reason I’m here is because I haven’t given myself that safety net. You gamble and you might win. I’m just playing my hand.”
Someone was a little more affected by Rounders that I thought.
I was pretty affected by Famke Janssen in that movie.
Will you do this ?
I don't.
they just started fertilizing food crops with raw human sewage in couple US states.
brad
n/t
... alienated restaurant workers may have been expectorating into the mu go gai pan? Try the Schezuan and Yunan dishes: the tongue searing spices cloak everything.
I am a scientist who studies renal (kidney) physiology. Urine, in most cases, is a sterile ultrafiltrate of plasma (the unclotted yellow stuff found in whole blood). It is a means thebody removes water soluble WASTE (caps intended). While I am not prudish about fetishes that people might practice, drinking one's own urine is neither harmful nor helpful. In fact, because urine is normally hyperosmolar (look it up if you want to know what it means), it normally is not absorbed.
There is no known scientific reason to benefit from drinking one's own (or anyone elses for that matter) piss.
Urine has been used by surfers to aleviate the sting from jelly fish. That is known. Additionally, I remember seeing some movies where people like to pee on others....I believe they call it "watersports". I have no opinion on this. As Ginger Baker says--"Do what you like".
Good Info.
Additionally, the Ituri Forest Pygmies use urine to neutralize the venom of the spitting cobra should one of their follows receive a squirt in the eye. How they discovered this useful property remains unexplained.
So if you were on a life raft in the ocean for example, it would be fine to drink your and other's urine if the water supply ran out? Or would the salt content be as high as sea water, so go ahead and drink that?
I'm sure most of you are aware of the cheating threads on RGP. There is so much noise that great stuff might get lost in the shuffle (no pun intended).
Anyway, don't overlook the "Cheating, Theft, and Collusion" thread posted by Dan Sullivan (in two parts, on May 31 and June 1). It is excellent IMO. Also check out Tom Weideman's post "Logic vs Hero Worship" posted June 1.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
I read Sullivan's first post on cheating. Excellent! If you hadn't mentioned Weideman's post I would not have read it. I will now, on your recommendation. I mean after all what kind of a title is "Logic vs Hero Worship"? The title itself doesn't seem very logical, now does it?
Vince
"check out Tom Weideman's post "Logic vs Hero Worship" posted June 1. "
I just read this post. Blah! Weideman does everthing he can to paint Doyle Brunson as a cheat except come right out and say it. He has singlehandedly turned the focus of these interviews form cheating to Doyle Brunson. But he does it in a logical manner. His agenda is obvious. Stick it to Brunson. I have no idea if the allegations against Brunson are valid, which is the same thing Weideman says but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Besides aren't the allegations of management participation more important. I think Weideman should be ashamed of himself.
Vince
Vince,
The Dan Sullivan posts were terrific and when I read the Weideman post, it seemed well thought out too so I'd thought I would mention it. After rereading it, I'm not so sure. Anyway, what a mess.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
You worked for Casino's in LA. Did you ever hear of management taking an active role in cheating customers in high limit poker?
vince
x
Hi, what is the webadress for RGP. I allways get something else. Thx
It's not on the web and is best accessed by a newsreader. I think the best way to get it through the web (a mirror site) is here:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&group=rec.gambling.poker
Hi Rick.
Thanks for pointing out those posts. I have been following the GCA posts but have skipped a lot of other stuff. I get tired of wading through the inane posts to get to the more salient ones. I may not have read these were it not for you. They were both good imho.
Alden Chase
..You're going to be bailing California out it's energy crisis! Just like the savings & loan scandal!
What an idiot. The savings and loan scandalwas a Bush generated scam (Poppa, Neil cooly stole 1 billion from Silverado). The phony California "shortage" is caused by unregulated wholesalers owned by Bush cronies gouging the public. The true middle class tax payers already took it up the rectum with the give the rich all the money tax bill last week.
No!! THE TRUTH might scare you uniformed suckers who love giving your money to the government instead of to you or your family. THE TRUTH is that with tax relief from the President that you call "illegitimate"., californians will have been more than adequetely stipened for their own enviormental fantasy.
And you uniformed voters out there who think President Bush OWES california ANYTHING? Listen to this. It's the sound of me laughing because he lost ca. in the election. What..... you kick my ass and I'm supposed to pick you up and bring you to church the next morning?
Sincerely, STICK IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, when the recession hits, I hope that you have a large bankroll. Bush and Cheney have major conflicts of interests. The Republicans themselves are deserting their right ring fanaticism. The payroll tax was not lowered one iota. Therefore, when the deficits pile up, and they will, the majority of working Americans who pay payroll taxes will once again pay the piper for a President named Bush that out a hell of a scam on Johm Q.Public. Neil Bush defended himself in court during the Silverado investigation by declaring that he had a mental illness which refused to permit to understand a conflict of interest. Apparently the current President suffers from the same malady.
Man, did any of you guys catch that last night? I must say that I was, ahem, surprised.. Part 2 tonight! :)
I still can't...ummm..."stand up" yet.
Thank God I wasn't driving when that came on!
Please explain it to those of us who missed it. If it was even more outrageous than his usual tit flashing and donut bumping stuff I can't imagine.
..but yes, it was by far the most shock-, er interesting thing I've ever seen....
Read This Story ,???
Lets say a Gin players goal is to win money over the "long run." Would he have a better chance to do this by:
1. playing for a certain amount per point, (i.e. 10 cents a point)?
or
2. playing for a certain amount per game (i.e 250 point game for $20 a game)?
Also, if its more profitable to play for a certain amount per point, is it better to play Hollywood style or just a straight game to whatever (e.i. 250)
i think that playing flop wins the most as its harder for the competition to realize that they are outclassed. hollywood would win the most in the fastest time and straight games would leave no doubt who was the best after a few games. we have a new advertiser gin 4 money where you can play. i havent had a good look yet but what ive seen looks like it might be a fun site.
What is playing flop? Im not really up on Gin "lingo". I've only been playing a few months
flop is gin played hand by hand. you can use the up card as the knock card and thats what you have to have to be under in order to knock or some use 10 points or under to knock. then the payoff is what you decide. some use one unit of money for winning with less points and two for an under knock or gin. its whatever works best for you and your opponent agrees to. ill stay out of the rest of the rules of gin as im no expert on this game.
I went and looked at the gin for money site for fun. What kind of rake is beatable in gin? Does anyone know? The rake there appears to be 8% on very prelim inspection.
Knock!
n/t
(20/40 HE) I have never devoted one iota of time, trying to develope a sense of observing "tells". Obviously, I am not alone. Check this. There are four players in a Holdem pot, including me, acting last. The river card is the third of it's suit to hit the board. I yell to the dealer, "What is that card?", before it is my turn to act. At the same time, I am gathering enough chips to raise, and anxiously pointing to the player on my right, to see if he has bet. I have made a flush, (and don't realize, he is not one of the player's in the pot). Everyone checks to me, I bet, then, THEY ALL CALL THE BET. So much for tells.
sounds like this was during a "Rush"
Sounds like you are playing with a bunch of fish and by the way you are giving up a big edge not developing a sense of player observation. But then again you sound like a know it all.
A post seemed a few weeks ago on RGP reminded me David Sklansky's idea directed to Paradise menagement (re showing to kibitzers 20-40 HE tables).
An RGP author thinks that it's the way poker (e.g. WSOP final) should be showed (broadcasted) to general public through Internet.
In details: Create software which will show the table with players' names and their stacks. Keep showing the play in real time to Internet kibitzers (with a few minutes delay). For them it will be like observing the table at online poker site with players' hole cards exposed.
Players must agree to reveal their play, but it is only $$$ question as "Late Night Poker" and "One Million Pounds Trnmnt" TV broadcasts showed.
I am ready to be subscriber of this "pay per view" poker web site.
Zbych,
If we play a flip of a coin bet, is there a betting scheme that will show a profit for either side assuming finite money on both side and a limited maximum bet?
thanks in advance..
TT
there is no betting way to change the expectation of an event. in your case its a 50 50 proposition and thats how the chances will be no matter how you bet your money. thats the math answer. in real life you can win or lose by watching the flip but thats not the question. if you are betting alot on a coin flip and you think its 50 50 you may be right and have no earn or wrong and cant win.
yes, 50-50 over long term. best way to beat it would be to take advantage of a short term fluctuation, get ahead and BEAT IT out of there.....Jim
No, but yes!
Make your opponent bet a (high) percentage of his bankroll, such as 50%, and this bet is based on his assets at that point in time.
So, if he starts with 1000, he bets 500. If he wins, he bets 750, etc.
Your expectation is zero. But you are a monster favorite to win money over n flips as he will need to flip a percentage WAY over 50% to break even.
1 Caveat: If he flips a ridiculously high percent(like 3 std. deviations above 50%, etc., you will get annhilated.
:)
After reading many of the cheating posts on RGP I have decided to address a few issues and contradictions that I feel need to be dealt with. Even though I am posting this on our forum, I have no objection if someone would like to copy it to RGP.
Issue No. 1: How many times was Caro Cheated? The GCA Group claims to have cheated Mike Caro literally hundreds of times. If this is the case, I don't see how it would be possible for Mike Caro to be a winner at poker. In fact, I believe that anyone who was cheated this much by the type of continuous sophisticated methods that these people talk about would have to be a major loser.
I know from correspondence and discussions that I have had with Mike Caro over the years that he is very adamant that he is a highly successful poker player. This means to me that either Caro is not being truthful about his poker results, or the claims that Caro was cheated hundreds of times are not accurate.
Issue No. 2: Hollywood Park Management: It appears from their posts that at least one member of the GCA Group must have spent much of his time plying his trade at The Hollywood Park Casino. Besides many encounters with Caro, this person has played with both David Sklansky and Barry Shulman at this cardroom. They have also indicated that they virtually never work on their own, but usually have management in their pocket and actively working with them, or at least bought off.
This brings up some interesting questions. Since they are willing to name names, perhaps the GCA Group can tell us which managers they have been working with at this facility? If they don't feel comfortable doing that, and I can certainly understand if they wish not to, they should at least tell us whether it is top management or middle level management they are working with? How this arrangement came to be? And if it is not top management, how these people are kept totally unaware of the scam. (By the way, just to set the record straight, I understand that Phyllis Caro, Mike's wife, is the top level poker manager there. In my opinion she is completely honest and would never involve herself in this type of activity.)
Issue Number 3: Caro's Cheating Monitor Service: This is a service that Caro claims to have operated for approximately twenty years. My understanding is that he is willing to exchange information with individuals and cardrooms concerning cheating to help minimize activities in this area. (If this is not a good explanation of its function, perhaps Mike Caro himself would take the time to better explain it.) Thus it appears that Caro should be a very knowledgeable person when it comes to the topic of cheating, and should certainly be able to recognize when it is possible that something might be wrong in a game. But this brings us back to the claim that the GCA Group has literally cheated Caro hundreds of times. If that's the case, it casts doubt, at least in my mind, that the Cheater Monitoring Service has any value or that the person who heads it up has any real knowledge about cheating. But again it could also mean that the claims of the GCA Group are at the very least greatly exaggerated.
Final Comment: I do believe that at least some of what the GCA Group has told us is accurate. This is especially true of some of the events that they mentioned to have happened years ago. However, for them to have credibility, they need to clear up these inconsistencies which I have brought up. I'm sure that some of you who have read the posts, and I certainly haven't read all of them, can bring up some other inconsistencies as well.
I have been following the RGP discussions and posts by GCA.
It is not clear to me, however, that GCA did say that they cheated Caro hundreds of times, nor was it clear to me that they said that they did a lot of their cheating at Hollywood.
Yes, they mentioned once about Sklansky at Hollywood, but David later said that was mroe than 5 years ago. That was the only mention of it. The mention of Hollywood pales in comparison to the mentions about Mirage, Bellagio, Commerce, Bicycle and old Gardena and Las Vegas.
So, I'm not clear as to why you are pointing out these two issues (Caro being cheated, and Hollywood). I don't dispute it, I just didn't read into it the same way you did.
If you can "show" or quote me where they said they cheated Caro many times over, I'd appreciate that, cause the I missed it (but I've read over 200 messages, which I thought were all of them on RGP).
And if you want them to point out Hollywood employees, then you should be demanding them to point out COmmerce, Bellagio and Mirage, since it seems to me, from their posts, that they think more happened at those three clubs individually than at Hollywood.
Lastly, I understand that you would want your post here, and in fact, you posted on RGP saying that you were going to post here (and that's the only reason I hit this up, otherwise I would have never visited Other Topics). And of course, it is well within your rights to do so, and it is probably good business sense for you.
But let's be 100% clear about this - the fact that you posted here , and the fact that the discussions are 100% on RGP (none so far here), means that you are more interested in your business than actually getting those questions answered. If you cared more about the questions answered than the business, then surely, you'd have posted on RGP. Sklansky does. Again, there's nothing wrong with caring the business, it is your business (a good one). And as long as you post here, you won't get the answers, unless someone copies it onto RGP - I don't know why anyone would want to do the work for you, as you can clearly do it yourself if you really wanted the answers...but again, business comes first.
oh, one other thing that pertains to business - for those of you that advertise here - sorry, but I have never clicked on any of the links, and never plan to, even though I probably count for possibly as much as 100 pageviews a day. its just good business for me myself to check this forum for the free information...but its not good business for me to click on the links, cause as far as I can tell, it can only waste my time.
censor this if you want...kick me out if you want. since i can always access and read the info, no loss to me.
To view our forums, and gain from the information that is present, you are not required to click on any links. Nor are you required to register or pay a fee to participate. I think that's a great deal for many people including you, and we at Two Plus Two hope that you enjoy the site.
As for deleting posts, we do have posting guidelines that we do enforce. However, when we delete a post it's usually a blatant ad -- almost always for an Internet casino, or when obvious insults towards another poster are present. If you have any other questions in this area I suggest that you read our "Terms and Conditions." Just click on the appropriate link at the top of the left hand column.
"It is not clear to me, however, that GCA did say that they cheated Caro hundreds of times, nor was it clear to me that they said that they did a lot of their cheating at Hollywood."
Here is part of a post from Russell Georgiev:
"Newsgroups: rec.gambling.poker Subject: Re: MIKE CARO
No one that I know has been cheated as many times as Mike, yet conquered the game as he did. He deserves to be in the Hallof Fame, not to be confused with the hall of shame."
Here is part of another post by the G.C.A. "G.C.A." If anyone was ever to be remembered in poker history. It is MIKE CARO. Though cheated hundreds of times in his earlier and latter years, he stands without a blemish. Now here is a true CHAMPION. G C A"
It seemed to me from reading their posts that at least one of them was active recently at Hollywood Park. I don't believe that I read anything that said that any of them were active recently at any of the places that you mentioned. That is why I used Hollywood Park in my example. (Again, there are many posts that I have not read so I easily could have missed something.)
I posted this on our site becuase I felt the discussion on RGP was becoming too disorganized. However, I gave permission to have this reposted on RGP and it is there now.
You seem to be missing the point that I am trying to make. That is credibility and who has it is now the question.
As for our business, let's say that business is good. And, if you are familiar with the product that we put out you should know that we go to great effort to make sure that it is top notch in every aspect.
on RGP, GCA has made a few posts, both discussing the two issues I brought up : (Caro being cheated hundreds of times) and (Hollywood Park being a main source of the cheating).
As it seems from those posts, Caro being cheated hundreds of times occurred over 14 years, twice a month. And they mentioned that cheating was going on everywhere, not just Hollywood.
I suggest anyone interested goto RGP and read it for yourself.
I've been over to RGP to read the cheating discussion. I normally stay away from there because I do not like the format. It is very difficult to wade through.
I must admit that I find the whole discussion useless. Perhaps if a native English speaker could put all the information together in an understandable format it may have some value.
Mason - If you could improve the throughput of your server(s) I'd be willing to pay a few bucks a month for this service. Perhaps offering a free area and a pay area like BJ21 would work out well. The pay areas tend to be a lot more serious without the nonsense.
We are currently looking at ways to improve the performance of this site. This includes going to a dedicated server where we would be the only site on it. The basic problem is the incredible success of this site. It has far more traffic than we ever thought was possible, and the quality of information on it is simply amazing. I guess these are the type of problems that you like to have. Anyway, we are addressing it and hopefully, some time in the not to distant future there will be improvement.
With this being said, I like the idea of a free forum. I have never been in favor of trying to get every dollar possible from our customers, and we do have very little nonsense on the forums. This last aspect is probably because the vast majority of posters do take these forums seriously and try to contribute as best they can.
The following is part of a post that I have just put up on RGP.
"Now getting to your immediate reply, you seem to have clarrified that Caro was cheated only every now and then over a very long period of time. This seems to imply to me that any playing that he has done lately, and for the sake of this discussion let's call lately the last five years, he has hardly been cheated at all and perhaps hasn't even been cheated once. What are your comments on this?"
Mason,
The acusations at RGP are getting far worse than Mike Caro being cheated. Perhaps the issue shouldn't be discussed at this point in time? The proper time and place may, or may not, present itself. If any of the G.C.A. accusations are found to be be true,then I believe it is in the best interest of anyone ever involved to remain silent.
You may be right. I wish I knew the answer, but things are getting pretty bizarre. Again, it is probably best to hear everything they have to say and then try to evaluate it.
Posted by: docriver
Posted on: Monday, 4 June 2001, at 11:05 a.m.
Posted by: str8jacket
Posted on: Monday, 4 June 2001, at 11:59 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 June 2001, at 12:53 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 4 June 2001, at 12:10 p.m.
Posted by: RS
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 June 2001, at 12:34 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 5 June 2001, at 11:56 p.m.
Ed --
Thank you for providing Mason's post on rec.gambling.poker, with his permission. You may post this response to 2 + 2.
I have, indeed, played many times in Russ' games. I'm not sure how I fared, but I probably lost. Russ didn't say he was always in the games personally when I was being cheated by his people.
Throughout my poker career, I have not fared very well in big-limit games. I have tended to do very well up to $100/$200 limits and often hit a brick wall above that. I have reported this phenomenon to many people. I thought I had reported it to you, too, before fate separated us geographically and we went our separate ways. Fortunately, we have managed to maintain our friendship over the years without much personal contact.
It is possible that techniques I use are not well suited for those largest-limit games or that I'm not as good at poker as I claim to be. The exception to this failure on my part is heads-up and short-handed against people I'm comfortable playing. In fact, that's where I've been the most successful. But, I'm sure I've sometimes been cheated in that regard, too.
Mason, your post seems strange to me and not as well reasoned as I would expect coming from you. Why can't someone with excellent skills win at poker, yet be cheated often? Doyle Brunson himself has told me he believes this has happened to him. I mostly play in games where there is likely very little cheating. And I probably play well enough to hold my own against some forms of cheating, but not the most powerful kinds. I'm not sure in that regard; I'm just speculating.
Maybe Russ is exaggerating about the number of times his people cheated me. I don't know. I was very surprised to see his public post,but I was also strangely flattered by his claim that I was the only one who had survived so many instances of being cheated.
As I have publicly stated many times, my Cheater Monitoring Service has been very inefficient in achieving a great deal that's good for poker. But, you yourself know it was a sincere effort, because you confided your concerns about cheating and even sent one person to me years ago who wanted to share his suspicions.
By golly, I just remembered. It was Ed Hill. Now there's a coincidence.
Anyway, where were we? Oh, yeah, I remember. Winning and sometimes getting cheated -- something's got to be inconsistent there, according to you. Well, I agree that being cheated makes it less likely that you would win overall, but so what? It seems to me that your argument is a stretch and I KNOW your conclusion is wrong. On the other hand, in recent years I haven't even played poker to make much profit. I try to put on "exhibitions" almost every time I play. I announce these in advance. Ask anyone. I do the weirdest things you've ever seen. These exhibitions are well known to everyone out here, so I'm surprised you aren't aware of them. I try to throw away a whole lot of money when I first sit down and win it back with a little profit. I usually succeed.
In fact, you should come watch me sometime. You'd be amazed. Poker really is an art form at that level of sophistication. I wish you could share the experience.
Thanks for your input. May all your poker adventures be rewarding.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
I would just like to comment that I am somewhat stunned by how mild Caro's reaction appears to be that he has been cheated so many times. What is it, "all's fair in love and war - and poker"?
What does G.C.A. stand for?
I prefer the light, clear syrup
.
The following was my response to Caro's post on rgp. Needless to say I think Caro looks bad on this issue.
>I have, indeed, played many times in Russ' games.
Did you know he was cheating?
>Why can't someone with excellent skills >win at poker, yet be cheated often?
Seems to me this question comes close to answering itself. Especially if you consider these fellows are talking about you being cheated hundreds of times at very high levels. And certainly if cheating is as widespread as they claim there must have been other teams that ravaged you. Or doesn't that follow?
>I was also strangely flattered by his claim that I was the only one who had survived so many instances of being cheated.>
Ha,Ha, Ha! Mike that's a joke. How in the hell would they know that you were the only one that survived? Theyr'e kissing your butt. Maybe they want you on their side. I don't know but I know at one point you were going to do these interviews but decided to cop a plea. Now what gives?
>my Cheater Monitoring Service >has been very inefficient in achieving a great deal
Inefficient? Why it ain't even existed. Your service has been around for 20 years. Have you ever even mentioned anything like these fellows are procaliming at all? Inefficient? My god how about "fraudulent". That's closer
.>On the other hand, in >recent years I haven't even played poker to make much profit"
These guys aren't taliking about recent years. They're talking "back when" Which means they are talking back when you were in your prime. And you were getting cheated hundreds of times at very high limits. And you wonder why Mason and others wonder how you could be a winner? What's even more amazing is that you, the guy who created a cheating monitoring service, couldn't tell he was being cheated "hundreds of times" by the same players.
>In fact, you should come watch me sometime. You'd be amazed.
Finally, something I can believe.
Vince
Mike Caro wrote:
"As I have publicly stated many times, my Cheater Monitoring Service has been very inefficient in achieving a great deal that's good for poker. But, you yourself know it was a sincere effort, because you confided your concerns about cheating and even sent one person to me years ago who wanted to share his suspicions.
By golly, I just remembered. It was Ed Hill. Now there's a coincidence."
That was in 1987. You have a habit of taking ancient events and presenting them like they are revelavent to current issues in poker. I certainly would not recommend that anyone talk to you in relation to your cheating monitor service today. That has also been my position for over 12 years.
I just finished my first visit to forums on pokerpages.com and found some interesting stuff, also, hats off to them for overall good website...if you tire of one table trnmnts (like paradise), then you can play against 200 on their "warm up"..not quite the same, no money, but good prize. lol Jim
From RGP Post by GCA, "But Mason isn't a professional cheat, never was and never will be. But for his two partners, we can't say the same.Though they, both haven't cheated in twenty years, they are EX-CHEATS."
Don't expect anyone to rush to their self defense against accusations by a moral Pygmy.
I, for one, doubt that it's true, esp. in DS' case. However, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that both had "come back over the top" on someone they'd caught trying to cheat them.
To further clarify why I think DS is less to have cheated than RZ, it's simply because I know less about Ray.
Just saw a thread on RGP(Christ, Google sux compared to Deja) where Russ G admits it's all 2nd hand therefore (IMO)likely BS.
I'd guess you heard the same stories about cheating at the Bike in the 80's as I did. I believe you also worked at Hollywood for some years. Have you posted anything about the subject?
Ed,
Back in the mid eighties I only played a few times per month while on business travel for a local aerospace company and never played bigger than 3/6 lowball or 5/10 high draw poker. When holdem became legal in the spring of 1987 I mostly played 5/10 until 1989 when I moved out here and played 10/20 and 15/30. Since then I’ve never played higher than 20/40 holdem.
I never heard much about cheating in the bigger games at the Bike. I did eventually make some friends who played in the old Gardena days and heard a few things from them but no specifics. I worked at Hollywood but never top section and was not an insider or privy to management thinking. I do play the mid limit holdem games (up to 20/40) there and find them safe.
I can’t remember posting anything about cheating, as I’m no expert. Of course that doesn’t seem to stop me from posting about poker strategy :-).
Regards,
Rick
Are you denying the rumor that you and your moll control the mid level action at HP? I was told to steer clear of those games. It's uncanny how she never loses.
Maybe you should get yourself a moll, boy!
Vince
This is a poem made up entirely of actual quotes from George W.Bush. The quotes have been arranged only for aesthetic purposes, by Washington Post writer Richard Thompson. > MAKE THE PIE HIGHER
by George W. Bush
I think we all agree, the past is over.
This is still a dangerous world.
It's a world of madmen and uncertainty
and potential mental losses.
Rarely is the question asked
Is our children learning?
Will the highways of the internet
become more few?
How many hands have I shaked?
They misunderestimate me.
I am a pitbull on the pantleg of opportunity.
I know that the human being
and the fish can coexist.
Families is where our nation finds hope,
where our wings take dream.
Put food on your family!
Knock down the tollbooth!
Vulcanize Society!
Make the pie higher! Make the pie higher!
Vince for GWB
Thanks, Vince. The poem brought a tear to my eye (well, let's just say that my eyes teared up). I hope that posting it puts an end to all the Bush bashing on the forum. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank of of you who helped take W. out of Texas and put him in D.C. where he belongs. Thank you.
Via con Dios to a great classic actor - Anthony Quinn. I don't think he ever mad a bad movie and perhaps had leading roles in more excellent movies than just about any other actor I can name.
However, something I observed him do one time sent a chill through me. At the time of the last and finally successful trial of the notorious mobster John Gotti, Anthony Quinn appeared in front of the camera and spoke into a reporter's microphone to give high praise to Gotti and to proclaim him innocent. I thought it bizarre and scary to think that even a man of the status of Quinn could be either friends with Gotti or else manipulated by him.
I don't think he ever mad a bad movie Well, after appearing in over 150 films, it's hard not to screw up once or twice. After Lawrence of Arabia, he could do a million bad movies and still be one of the greats. But, a quick perusal of the last decade only reveals:
Revenge, 1990
Last Action Hero, 1993
Mobsters 1991
Ghosts Can't Do It, 1991
A Walk in the Clouds, 1995
ouch.
natedogg
I just got back from a weekend in Vegas and spent some time at the spread limit game at the Las Vegas Club. The last time I was there I met Razzo who is one of the only people on the poker forums I've met in person. He was a great host last time so I thought I would chat him up again if he was around. Well I'm glad I did because he got me a reduced price on my room. Thanks Razzo for hooking me up! I'm rarely on RGP but I guess that's where he mainly hangs out. Since I'm on two+two a lot he wanted me to mention on here that he would like to post on this forum but seems to think Mason hates him and will delete his posts. I have no idea what this is about so don't kill the messenger. Wow, I feel like I'm in 3rd grade, I think I'll go take a bath to get rid of this dirty feeling. The more I read messages on these forums the more I think every poker player should get together for a night of drug induced bonding. Maybe some kind of group thought will form and we can start a commune.
When he posts blantant ads they will be deleted since we do not allow them. If he chooses to follow our posting guidelines in a responsible manner he should have no problem posting here.
"If he chooses to follow our posting guidelines in a responsible manner he should have no problem posting here."
I don't know about that. You deleted Abdul because of his penis. Or was it becasue he said penis? I can never get that straight...Wait.. I dont mean I can never get Abdul's penis straight. Mainly because I've never tried or would try or want to try for that matter. What I meant is that I can't keep it straight whether Abdul said penis or he has a penis or he showed his penis or whatever he did penis wise. I just have a hard..opps... I didn't mean hard..I meant tough, yeah that's it, a tough time with keeping these things str..., errr.. separated. Gee, I hope Razzo doesn't have a penis... I mean...
vince
Vince,
Like you said on rgp: You are the only as**ole on 2+2, and nobody reads your posts anyway.
When are you driving west again?
Abe
Abee babee how bee thee!
I probablee won't head out west before the fall. I will be driving in your direction and will try look you up. Oh did I say I was the ONLY A**hole on 2 + 2? Sometimes even genuises (geneie's?) make mistakes.
Vince
..That you were only AN a**hole on 2+2. Or maybe it was something about how a bunch of geniuses have problems w/their penii while a genie has no prob w/his penis..
So, plurally speaking, you're not comin- ER, DRIVING, out for the Orleans tourneys(ies?) in July?
time keeping hands off penis problem!!!!
Is this just happening to me?
Often after I've read a post and exited, I am relocated several places down the forum list into a completely different thread. I would of course rather be back where I started before opening the last post.
I don't believe this used to happen.
Nick
hiked 10 miles into the Mokoluomne Wilderness to do some fishing this weekend. The weather was great and the campsite was a real classic. comfortable place to sleep, lots of firewood nearby, massive douglas fir, sugar pine and sequoia, clear flowing river... Really a deluxe place to camp. fishing was slow and the river is very difficult to fish because you have to be so creative on the backcast not to get line tangled in bushes. wading out too far not advised.
tried using a flourocarbon tippet and had disastrous results. broke WAY too easily. lost 3 flies without hooking a fish and without getting snagged. They just broke right off during a cast. Anyone else had this problem with flourocarbon tippet? The guy at the fly shop really thinks its the bee's knees. guess I'm a sucker.
Your getting out a bit,good. Sounds like a nice place.
Haven't used the new flourocarbon tippets. Too expensive and I have no complaints with the older tippets.
Had a spring snow yesterday, wet and heavy. Trees down everywhere. My backyard took a hit. The moisture will help some but a drought seems inevitable.
Keep posting your reports.
we missed the snow here but it never got over 39d out. i hope the cold didnt get to the eggs on the ducks nests around me. none hatched yet on the lake. when it warms up Ed, maybe your wife will get you to finish painting your house that you only got half done last year.
I suppose your bass shares your hopes for the duck eggs.
I've lowered my expectations. 2-3 yrs is an adequate time frame for painting the house. Any suggestions to help convince my wife?
so far this year my big bass has been replaced by a ten incher which scoots out from the dock when i walk out there, i hope he isnt dead. i dont go out on my dock too much this time of year as the redwing blackbirds are nesting around it in the weeds and dive bomb me all the time. buy your wife a fishing rod or a lawn mower.
yikes, snow in June. if the drought continues the snowfall will make for a real bad fire season in late summer. puts alot of dead wood on the ground.
i try to fish with 4x tippets as thats what holds a bigger fish. a 4x tippet wont break when you pull it with your hands. if it does its last years or it was in the heat or sun and weakened. ive never used the fc ones either but i bet they are ok or they wouldnt have gotten this far in use. i lose alot of flies when there are bushes behind me and the only reason i can think of is that the bushes rush forward during my cast and grab my fly. i watch but never see them. side note: since leaders are getting stronger 5x is almost unbreakable in your hands as well. 6x does me no good as i cant see the sized flies that go on it. but with the small flies when you hook yourself in the head during a windy day the little ones dont go in so far.
"a 4x tippet wont break when you pull it with your hands. "
Neither will an 8" penis. Oh Gee, Ray, I'm sorry, I got penis on the brain after reading Mason's Razzo post. Of course there are some similarities to this "tippet" as you call it and a penis. Let's look? With the above statement in mind you next said "if it does its last years or it was in the heat or sun and weakened" Penis problem all the way. Especially if you are a nudist. Then you said "ive never used the fc ones either but i bet they are ok" Well, now my friend, it seems that I know someone with an fc (finely crowned) penis and he's never used it either. He's a priest. He's celebate. I saw his finely crowend jewel in a men's room. They do pee standing up you know. Man these coincidences are uncanny. Now this one got to me ". i lose alot of flies when there are bushes " Let me tell you that if I put my penis in a bush and the bush loses a lot of flies, I'm out of there. Is it the same with your tippet? Of course I mustadmit that not all is the same between your tippet and a penis because "when you hook yourself in the head during a windy day." That may not hurt your tippet but it would sure be a pain in the balls if it happend to my penis. So Ray thanks for the interesting story about your tippet. Have a nice day in fish land. Maybe we can trade coincidences again some time.
vince
gee i never even thought about that correlation. its quite funny how some minds work. but then again i wouldnt be caught dead in a vw bus.( i guess it took you awhile to get even with me for my post about you in the bus huh?)
"i wouldnt be caught dead in a vw bus"
That's the only way you and your tippet will ever get in my VW bus. If it ever runs.
Vince
its true that the bushes chase after your fly. On windy days I wear a bike helmet with a littly rear view mirror. That's how I know about the bushes.
Ray, say it ain't so about VW buses. In the 70's I spent half a year all told fishing Montona and Idaho, living out of an old VW bus. Of course, I wouldn't be caught dead in one now either, unless I was hitching a ride through Death Valley and my host's VW blew its fifteenth engine or something. Anyone know what "Air cooled by RVeeCo" means in German?
I hear you about hooking yourself with flies. Some days we'd drive up to the Henry's Fork, see a few bleeding guys in ugly vests in the parking lot and know the fish were hitting yuck bugs. They really should hire an ER doc to work that lot.
On the Henrey's Fork I laughed at a friend with an unintended fly in his nose.
What size tippit????
!
I believe leader design and presentation to be the most important factors. You should never have to go lighter than 5x.
Before becoming even lazier, I used to tie my own leaders using George Harvey's formula. Now I'm so lazy I use 5x for "bugger fishing".
The flies weren't breaking off on wind knots? I've found that I break off or knot up a few tippits when I'm casting in tight quarters. Probably unconciously rushing my forward stroke because I know there's something behind me that I don't want to hit. just a thought. I've never fished FC either.
Boris,
Seems like you are solidly in the lead for most fishing outings by a 2+2er in 2001. Keep it up. I may be heading out to the Olympic National Park this weekend--my favorite place on the planet. For sure soaking in the hot springs; might be throwing some flies in the Elwah or Hoh rivers.
I am yet to use the FC tippet either. Like Ed said, I never had a problem with the others so why switch. I have a good supply too, so probably won't be trying it anytime soon.
I know what you mean about the bushes. Some days the hooking some brush is the most bend my rod sees all afternoon.
KJS
Based on some very careful observation and numerous consultations with Cook, Skalanski, Malmouth and Yamamoto, I feel I have an obligation to give you notice that I have picked up a tell on your play Mr. Chairman in the 10-20 Hold-Em game. As you can clearly see, it has led to great success in stealing your big blinds as well as knowing when to raise your limp in calls and it feels good to have a shot at beating the best player in the 10-20 Hold Em game at Hollywood Casino.
Sorry Mr. Chairman, it had to happen eventually by a good player such as myself.
Which Hollywood Casino? Hollywood Park or the one in the Midwest near Chicago? - Rick
.
Here's a huge tell I've recently picked up on the Chairman...
When he rakes in my chips as if disinterested, my money is going towards his mortgage payment.
When he stacks my chips with a slight smirk, I've obviously just helped finance his next Card Player cruise.
- It's really pathetic how transparent he is -
Oh you silly gooose, never tell a tell or that you have clocked a tell. You will soon find out why. The Chairman of the Board, will soon visit your soon to be shrinking chips.
SPM,...been there done that...
"The truth is hard to fight. Logic just gets in the way."
"He who ignores arithmetic argues nonsense"
Unknown (to me)
.
"Now I"m standing on an Island thats sinking into the sea, and all that I can do is just enjoy the scenery"
Nevada approves online gambling. n/t
I wonder if Nevada knows there are over a dozen internet poker sites alone already and countless other gaming sites. I thought it curious that the news caster pitched this with the comment that this would be a 'first'. I guess they mean first State sponsered internet gaming.
When I was trying to get my Pokerspot payment back from my VISA holder I had occasion to investigate the legality of online poker. I spoke with the Oregon State D.A. office and they said to call the State police. The State police said there are NO STATE LAWS against gaming online. This person also gave me the name/number of an F.B.I. office contact. I called him and he said there are no FEDERAL laws against online gaming. So much for the hullabaloo about online poker being illegal.
I suppose if Nevada gets behind a poker site it will be the Cadillac version, with their knowhow and unlimited resources. Lookout Paradise.
i am headed to buloxi for a family reunion. one night i plan on stoping by one of the casinos to play some hold'em. does anyone know where the best place to play 3-6 or 5-10?
Either the Grand-Biloxi or the Grand-Gulfport should suit you. Both are large and well run.
many years ago I went into a bank in a VERY small town, and was surprised to see a sign on the wall "money may not be the only thing that is important--but it is way ahead of whatever is in second place".
that applies to poker rooms at the GRAND too. And remember that poker room can get you a lower rate on your room if you stay there. lol, Jim
Have you had a chance to do any foraying in MT yet this year!!!!!!!! Going out this weekend they should be ballooning up like bridegrooms tippets or whatever vince talks about!!!
If I get any questionable ones I'll be sure to send them to Vince to try out first as you suggested years ago to me.
paul
most of the burned areas are south of me from missoula down the bitteroot. around here most of last years fires are way back in the woods, so ive been lazy about getting my morels this year. this week when it gets warmer after this rain i might go rooting around like a pig looking for truffels.
..made by GCA that he cheated during the $20K/40K game a few months ago. It's on RGP. posted by Daniel Negreanu. You'll never guess who had a nit to pick w/Ted's denial, either.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&ic=1&th=36fd585e0100c560,6
I don't care about Ted polygraph result but I bet Ted won't score 110 on IQ test.
State gaming regulators are looking into the matter. Can't say I'm shedding any tears for Becky.
Here is the link below (you may have to cut and paste)
http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2001/Jun-05-Tue-2001/business/16248052.html
Anyone want to team up with me,email me.
I currently play 15-30,20-40 make $ 45/hour (not enough), I play in california.
n/m
sounds good. i make around 5-10/hour.
split right down the middle, right?
brad
This must be a joke. If it's not, youre a moron.
.
I need 6 things from you before I will commit. I need to run a credit check on you.
1. Full name (spelling correct)
2. Social Security number
3. Home address
4. Place of Employment and address
5. Home telephone
6. Work telephone
And oh BTW. It'll have to be online because your SHIT stinks too much for me to be in the same room with you!
:
double the LOL seems a lot of readers have lost their sense of humor over all of this
Poker burns in my blood. I'm tired of these cheating posts already. The point has been made, people are more aware. I'm kind of glad these posts, posters, have decided to spill their guts. Whether it's a work of fiction or not, players are more aware and will police their own games.
I'm a low to middle limit player with the occasional foray into pot limit, which I adore. Looking forward to the US Poker Championships at the TAJ. Good luck to all poker players and don't be discouraged.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
In Larry Brown's "Father & Son", the boys are playing 5-Draw High, and a player actually makes a value FOLD!
"Puppy knew better than to draw to his two pair with Ed likely holding a straight already."
The book itself is pretty good, if you like stories about the "Deliverance" style Deep South. The timeline and characters' ages get a little scrambled, but considering the violent, alcoholic haze most of 'em are in, I doubt they care..
If you're a Deliverance/Fight Club/Trainspotting fan, pick up "F&S", but get "Joe", also by Brown, first. :)
I've probably posted this before, but I'm tired, and this Java teacher we got is a droning auld wanker, wearing a $60 get up a 9th grader working his first shirt 'n tie job at Walmart mighta thrown together(shortsleeve plaid button down w/a big bright tie nicked from dad's drawer, navy Dockers knockoffs w/brown belt, worn out Topsiders knockofs), which makes wonder, A: just how much does this clown know about Java to not be able to dress better; and B: what does he spend his money on if he can?
Well, I waded through the muck on RGP to see what there was to be seen. What a mess! Many famous names are being accused of either currently being cheats or of having cheated in the past. There are allegations of marked cards, casino personnel in on scams, teamwork and hidden cameras. Here are some comments made by a famous player in response to what he sees as a poorly made case, or rather a poor strategy in posting, by the accusers:
"Did you not SHOW me technology? Did you not claim that chips from major tournaments are available to cheaters? Did you not bring these chips to me when I doubted you? Did I not put them in evidence bags and keep them while tournaments went on? Did you not put these chips under ultra violent [sic] light so that the secret manufacturer logo appeared, meaning they were authentic? Did you not tell me many other scams that you were personally involved with and other cheating you knew about firsthand?"
A famous name has denied involvement in cheating. Another says he won't say anything for a while. Another gave cryptic responses (in my judgment) intimating that some portion of the accusations was true and then said he would say no more because other people are involved. Two famous names address each other with little disguised sarcasm instead of addressing the issues at hand. It's all a little bit disheartening and more than a little sickening.
What are we to make of all this? A famous player says he has seen technology and chips available to cheaters. I'm no Pollyanna. I know that wherever there's gambling there's cheating. And I also know that if you look too closely at your heros, some evidence of clay feet emerges. But the whole thing has a huge stench that can only be ameliorated by more truth and clarity than we've seen thus far. Is there no one in the poker world that can get others behind an organization that gets to the bottom of these things, and gets the truth out? Or is the truth that no one really wants the truth out?
Annie Duke post is very good.
The most serious charge that I've seen is that some famous names worked with members of Chicago's La Cosa Nostra family.
another good post from Andy Fox. possibly it is time for a respected member of poker world, who lives in Nevada, to request the state gaming commission to investigate and report.....would someone like M.M. fill that bill????????? Jim
Say it ain't so Joe, say it ain't so.
I can't speak for Ray but I couldn't help notice some very odd things in the post by GCA. Here is what I posted on RGP:
This story reads like a damn movie script. I mean seriously, why in the world would two real-world kingpin cheats have a high-stakes personal battle between themselves when there are suckers out there waiting to be fleeced? To make it even more unbelievable, this poker confrontation was part of a war over "turf"? Loser has to turn control of the area over to the winner or something like that (reminds me of "loser has to leave town")? Not to mention it is a bit odd that Zee passes each day waiting for suckers in a bar, but the owner of the bar hates his guts. LOL times 100. It's nice to see that you had your writer help you with this post, but I'm sorry, the introductory part of the story looks EXACTLY like part of a bad movie script rather than anything from the real world. "M"
Also, I'll believe that two kingpin cheats would have a hi-stakes card game over "turf" when pigs fly. Two kingpin cheats would instead TEAM-UP to better fleece the suckers and would probably have a jolly time of it from start to finish. "M"
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&ic=1&th=436f770e475ce643,3
Unlike the one where they accused David, at least this one is a first hand claim. Whether I believe it or not, I dunno. It does sound Hollywoodish, but GCA doesn't exactly impress me as the next Tarantino, so I have no doubt that Ray and Russ Georgiev at least knew of each other back in the day.
For some reason, this one(if true) disappoints me more than the ones(if true) accusing Doyle and the others, even David. Dunno why(mebbe cos I'm a 2+2er), I've never met Ray, just read his book. Whether he was/is a cheat, it's still a good book and I like his posts on high-limit, Omaha and Stud.
Ray's a nice guy. I met him playing no limit holdem in the Bay Area. It was basically my first foray into a game of that nature. I'm only 24 and clueless in the grand scheme of things but I thought he played really well. If he cheated in the past(which I don't know is true or not) it doesn't apply to today. He rarely plays poker anymore. The post on Ray has no bearing on modern poker. Chip and Doyle still play so that is fair game. I'm more curious as to how people are cheating TODAY. The past is the past. If Ray(and others) did cheat back then you have to realize it was 30 years ago. I want to know if it's safe for me to play the bigger games in Vegas. Seemingly these guys can't help us with that question.
Almost buried on RGP among the third-hand hearsay about games 15-20 years ago, Annie Duke has posted some hard information about the big games in LV in the present day. It is very interesting indeed, and includes information about Doyle Brunson's and Chip Reese's recent results, with their permission.
Her initial post is under the title "The Regent Game and some thoughts about cheating", and the follow ups are also mostly well worth a read. Some other poster asked her about 10 very specific questions and she gave very concrete answers.
Sadly, some idiot criticised her for being egotistical by using the word "I" a lot (this in a post about her own experiences!) which worsened the signal-to-noise ratio quite a bit, but it is still an excellent thread.
RFL
"information about Doyle Brunson's and Chip Reese's recent results, with their permission."
Here Information "Chip just went on a monster loosing streak over the last few months and Doyle has been losing lately too (they have given permission to post these results)."
They want the world to know they're losing,are they broke?
I'm sure they're not broke, but if you're suggesting that they're losing on purpose as some kind of camouflage, at the stakes they're playing for, I think you're wrong. It would be too expensive and not at all effective.
I regard it as telling that they're both (or at at least c. Reese) losing over an extended period, since they would be unlikely to if they were cheating. Before Annie Duke's post, one of the main questions in mind was whether the people accused ever had long losing streaks, and she has answered that, at least to some extent.
RFL
Those guys having a losing strak doesn't prove or disprove anything at all. The big game, what exactly is the big game? Well, $1000-$2000 is a big game, right? Not really, it is actually a small game to Chip and Doyle. These guys are great players. Even if they did cheat they wouldn't do it in a small game like $1000-$2000.
It would make more sence to cheat in a $10,000-$20,000 blind game, wouldn't it? In that game you can actually lose something.
As for either of these guys being broke, well, they are both proably on the case $50,000,000 if you call that broke. Maybe I am way off, but I would bet they both are worth minimum $10,000,000 apiece.
It's fascinating stuff, I wish she'd post here.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&ic=1&th=5099989dff3674cf,28
Dsklansky The above is an extract from a recent RGP post containing a response David made to someone's accusation that he cheated in a game 25 years ago.
So David, why would you not warn Mike Caro he was being cheated, yet would try to avert it by giving notice to the cheaters?
Nick,
You can't figure out why this might be the most prudent course of action?
i guess friends mean nothing....or maybe they weren't/aren't
The point is that if David were to have warned anyone about these guys and this became known, the mafioso behind it all would probably have viewed this in the most unfavorable light. On the other hand if he were to have gotten them to give a certain friend "a break", he would have accomplished the same purpose without potentially risking his life (or his legs, or whatever).
That is correct. I'm shocked that Mr.Sklansky even acknowledged that he was being backed by Tony Spilotro. Spilotro was a stone cold killer and the Chicago outfit's boss over Vegas. If Sklansky had those associations in the past, he probably still knows these people now(not Spilotro, he was murdered). The feds have been brutal on organized crime over the last 10 years. Most of the illicit gambling action has moved offshore due to this heat. This doesn't promote confidence in internet poker.
Nevertheless, his statement makes complete sense.
It's not important to the important issue of cheating. It really doesn't matter much whether Ray Zee or David Sklansky or any of the others that were named cheated or are cheating today. It's not important if any of the allegations against any of the individual players named are true. Although it is important to the individuals themselves it's just not important to me. And I despise cheating.
What is important is the methods that cheaters use and how to combat them. What is important is the role that Casino Card room management had/have in any cheating in the past or present. If Card room management cannot be trusted to keep their rooms honest we are all in trouble. I do not believe that cheating is wide spread at the mid limits in Casino Card rooms. In fact I will be very surprised if anyone can point to even one incident of cheating at these limits and back up their allegations with facts. I'm not naive. I know that it occurs but it doesn't occur very often. Mason does a good job of presenting reasons why it doesn't occur. One of those reasons is that most players do a good job of policing thier own games.
However lightly I view these allegations does not lessen the importance I attach to Poker Room Managers being above reproach and control thier rooms. If someone knows and can prove that Card room Managers in a particular Casino tolerate and/or participate in cheating then it behoves all of us to take action against that Card Room. Because of the allegations of management involvement by GCA I have closely followed the cheting issue. Even though there allegations are primarily against hi limit players if management is involved I want to know about it.
I said above that I hate cheating. I didn't say I hate cheaters. I try to accept people for what they are and not judge them. I believe that I would never cheat but the fact of the matter is that if I were put into a situation that I considered intolerable I'm not positive how I would respond. You really don't know until you get there.
Vince
" It really doesn't matter much whether Ray Zee or David Sklansky or any of the others that were named cheated or are cheating today. "
nonsense
..is how safe the small/medium limits and small/medium blind PL/NL games are in the major cardrooms in the US, as well as if the major tournaments are currently run honestly.
The answer: Upwards of 99% chance of safety.
Then why all the uproar? Simple. Being as there's really nothing useful that GCA can tell the vast majority us, we simply want to hear tales of the old days and possible dirt on poker celebrities. We'll almost certainly never play in the big games, we're fascinated by them and we're a nation of celebrity watchers. I'm guiltier than most of the above(as is obvious by the posts I've made here; mea culpa hypocriticus).
I would love to read a *well written* book on all levels/technologies of cheating, as well as blood 'n guts from Gardena and the ol' Stardust. And while I would like to know if David & Ray cheated(I hope not), it won't affect my opinion of their books nor the $38/hr I'm making this year at the tables.
Mike Caro never should've made the "coming soon" post that started all this(although I understand why he did; he was seen w/GCA), GCA's presentation has been mostly awful, and RGP has proven to be absolutely the worst place in the world for anything serious about poker to be discussed.
RussG has admitted he has a grudge against Doyle & Chip(and he's sure proven to like the limelight[understandably so]), and talking about the big game at Bellagio was the only way for him to be considered more than an ol' timer telling war stories. A shame, because GCA could've been a powerful force for good, despite the casinos' squeamishness about any discussion of cheating.
I'm sorry for my small contributions to the noise, but ya gotta admit; GCA's "badger amongst elephants" smack, the story of a stoned Joey Hawthorne losing his briefcase w/$200K in it, the clown who counts how many times Annie Duke uses "I" in her posts, the idea of David almost getting whacked by Tony Spilotro, & Ted Forrest's bizarre caning proposition have made for some chuckles the last coupla weeks....
The whole caning thing came about because Ted Forrest is an S&M Munchkin.
One of the posts on RGP states that someone has watched to many episodes of the Sopranos. The average American has come to believe that the mob is just a Hollywood fantasy. Mr.Sklansky knows better. What would have happenned if someone had accused Sklansky of cheating when he was bankrolled by Tony Spilotro? They would have wound up buried in the desert. Thats a technique not taught in the Theory of Poker. It sounds like Mason Malmuth was ignorant of this when he became partners with Sklansky. I'm sure glad that Mason hasn't cooked the books.
my post was a joke. A play on words.
Sklansky's organized crime ties are no joke. If Sklansky is connected, which he has admitted, then probably all poker in Vegas (10-20 on up) is subject to cheating enforced by violence.
Ok Im an Idiot. Ive read a bunch of cheating posts recently but I guess I missed the beginning because I still dont know who or what the GCA is. Is it one guy or dozens? Who cares what some anonymous people say anyway??????
GCA are Russ Georgiev, John Martino and Bill Nirdlinger. They are old time cheats/crooked dealers. They have been making a lot of posts on RGP about cheating technology, 70's & early 80's cheating in Gardena and LV, and far less credibly, about a huge recent game at Bellagio. They have a lot of info but have presented it a horrible manner.
I'm winning poker for years but don't have bankroll for 30-60 or bigger, need someone to do bussiness with.
Email me.
Get a creditcard or two and hit Paradise hard for a couple months. And stay away from sports.
JG
Thank for reply,is this mean Mason won't delete my post?
get creditcard,I'm not sure I can get one.
hit Paradise hard, I don't think I can or should ,still a lot of money in real casino.
stay away from sports, umm...
Thank again,you're a good man.
I just replied to your "I want to cheat" post listed below. See my reply to that one and you'll have my reply to this one.
animal.
"I'm not an animal. I am a man!" (Anthony Hopkins in "The Elephant Man"). Nothing demeaning meant by my response to your first post. Just a little fun. I've backed many in my day. Got taken for a little on some, profited big on others. Still ahead. If I knew you and you fit the bill I would back you too.
We're all animal.
Several years ago I met a self-taught engineer who had developed a solution to the energy crisis. He'd designed a car that was powered by the air that went by it when he drove. All he needed was investors...
Greetings,
Could someone tell me about the card game gin.
Viz:how do you play?
what are some good resources for information on it?
do alot of people play and if so where?
how does the game compare strategically and luck wise to games like poker/backgammon/or chess.
i heard people play in some pool halls, and i have played gin rummy, and i saw this an add on this site about it.
any info would be aprreciated!!
thanks!
Gin is a game similar to poker in that even a bad player can get lucky and win now and then, but the better player will eventually get the $$ (probably much sooner than in poker).
Check out a library or bookstore. There are many good books on gin.
My favorite version is Hollywood. This seemingly inncocent game can quickly get into hundreds of $$ even when playing for just 5 cents a point... Hope this helps.
Kevin
Im not positive, but I think Gin and Gin Rummy are the same game.
Each player is dealt 10 cards, then you take turns drawing from the upcards or deck trying to make sets or runs called melds.
Run i.e. 5c 6c 7c
Set i.e. 9c 9s 9s
A player can knock when their unmelded cards are equal to or less than the pre-set number. (some people use 10 others use the 1st upcard to determine the amount needed to knock)
ex: if I knock with unmelded cards that equal two and my opponent has unmelded cards that equal 20 I win the difference, which is 18 points. Games are usually played to 100, 200, 500, or any agreeable amount. Hollywood is just a different scoring system that scores 3 games at once and allows good players to win a lot.
If a player knocks the other can lay off his cards if they match his opponents.
If the player that didn't knock has unmelded cards equal or less than the knockers unmelded card that is an undercut and that player wins 25 points.
Going Gin is when you have all melded cards and no unmelded, usually Gin wins 25 points.
Some good resources are: "How to Win at Gin Rummy" by Harold Hart and "Gin Rummy" by George Fraed. These books and others can be ordered online from the Gamblers Book Store.
There is a lot of skill involved and good players win very often. However, like poker, bad players can and do get lucky and thats what keeps them playing. I think one of the most important skills is having a good memory. I beleive this is why Stu Ungar was the best Gin player ever, because he had a photographic memory.
I hear they have all kinds of Gin tournaments around the country and a lot of "Country Club folk" play it.
When I first found out about this web site I was so suprised there wasn't more strategic discussions about Gin. Maybe this will change in the future. :)
My girlfriend recently taught me what she called "tournament gin" which sounds like Hollywood. We play best of three games to 100 for a pre-set dollar amount. She learned in the immigrant halls in Pittsburgh where she said the old men would take her for a good amount of dough on a regular basis. Now she just takes mine ;)
We do play that the point card is the first card off the deck after the deal. The winner of the previous hand (losers continue to deal in Gin) has the option to take that card. If they decline, the dealer can take it. If they decline, the winner chooses from the deck. For example, if the first card is the six of diamonds, you must knock on six points or less.
One thing Bishop implied but did not mention. When you knock, you can turn one unmelded card face down as a discard. For example, my hand is 777JdTd9d22K4 and the point is 8. On my turn, I draw a 2. My unmelded cards are K and 4. I go down on 4, because I discard the K face down on the pile.
Our scoring differs a bit. If you get Gin, you receive 20 plus the sum of all unmelded cards in your opponents hand. FYI, your opponent cannot play off your hand if you get Gin. You can get gin and not discard. Ie. my hand is 333KKKJdTd8d7d and I draw the 9d. Gin, no discard. Make the 7d the 7c and it would be Gin, I discard 7c.
If I go down and my opponent has less points, they get 20 plus the difference. Ie. I go down on 8 when the point is ten. My opponent only has 6 points in unmelded cards. They get 22 (20 plus [8-6]).
I think the game is very skillful but differs from poker because there is no real playing the player, bluffing, etc.. Good card sense and a good memory are a huge benefit. I don't play chess or backgammon and any skillful level so I can't comment on that.
KJS
"I think the game is very skillful but differs from poker because there is no real playing the player, bluffing, etc.."
This might be why your girlfriend takes your $$. There is MUCH playing the player in gin...
I agree, playing the opponent is very important.
x
Watch your opponent when they first look at their hand. You can usually read weak players and can tell if they like their hand. Lots of tells can be seen at the beginning of a hand, some players will, all of a sudden, sit up straight in their chair when they like their hand.
Pay attention to where they position their cards. Some players always place high card on one side.
Pay attention to how they discard. Most players discard in a natural rythme, but some times you will catch a player draw a card and hesitate. Some players discard worthless card with reckless abandon, but when they try to bait you (get you to discard the same card, but of a different suit) they discard differently. They may try to add a little extra emphasis to get you to see it. The way someone discards usually contains lots of valuable info.
I have a tell on a fellow that I play gin with. If I pick up his discard and he has a possible punch on it, he puts that card on one end of his hand.
"Watch your opponent when they first look at their hand. You can usually read weak players and can tell if they like their hand. Lots of tells can be seen at the beginning of a hand, some players will, all of a sudden, sit up straight in their chair when they like their hand."
If you can tell if someone likes or dislikes their hand, you can make accurate decisions as to whether you should play offensively or defensively.
Greetings,
I was wondering where the games are better for say midlimit holdem and midlimit stud(10/20- 20/40). I have played a bit in connecticut (at Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods) but only played once at Atlantic City in the last year.
ALl comments appreciated!
FW always has a 10-20 w/ half-kill HE game going. MS usually has a 20-40 HE game. FW rarely has any HE games higher than the 10-20 half-kill, unless you count some of their mixed games, which sometimes include HE in the rotation, and are played anywhere from 75-150 to 300-600 (usually only 1 such game, with the limits and mix of games varying daily without any set pattern). MS gets a HE or half-HE/half-stud 40-80 game going relatively often (it was straight HE 40-80 last night). Sometimes it's 50-100, occasionally higher.
AC - I have no idea.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The TAJ has 10/20-20/40 stud and holdem games every day. On the weekends, the room is packed to capacity. The Trop is excellent too. If you play the midlimits, then AC is the place. I haven't been up to foxwoods, but fossilman gave a nice rundown.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
I sometimes play in a "charity" tournament on Tuesday evenings. Last tues I decided to kill some time playing a 1/2 O hi and 1/2 hold'em 2-10 with 20 on the end.
During this game I got in a hand with a guy and on the turn he picked up a stack of chips from a friend and proceeded to call my raise. When I asked the dealer about this wierd practice she said "WE" play forward and which means a player can play cash from his pocket or borrow chips from others to complete a hand.
Well I didn't like it but continued to play until my satalite was called - I picked up 10 bb in less than 1/2 an hour but still didn't like the idea of not playing table stakes.
I've played with them before, you got scamed. The game has always been table steaks.
SPM,...call the head boss next time...
I hate the handicap system so I'm always trying to find other ways to bet at golf and give myself a >60% chance of winning. Now if you play someone who is a weaker player etc etc you mite want to try this structure. If he is very weak you may offer the 2:1 par structure (meaning you have to make twice as many pars as your opponent). If he is not that bad try 3:2 structure. You could come up with other schemes but these are the two I use for now. The other advantage I get from this structure is playing from the tips. Usually I hit the ball further than my opponent and if I get the lead with either structure it seems they have a more difficult time catching up. Just thought I would throw this out for something different to try. If you can make it double for Birdies your win rate goes up to >70%. I have this on a spreadsheet so if it doesn't look right I can email it to you if your interested.
paul
PAR'S 3:2 TIE WINS LOSES 2:1 TIE WINS LOSES
18 12.000 >12 <12 9.000 >9 <9
17 11.333 12 or > 11 or < 8.500 9 or > 8 or <
16 10.667 11 or > 10 or < 8.000 >8 <8
15 10.000 >10 <10 7.500 8 or > 7or <
14 9.333 10 or > 9 or < 7.000 >7 <7
13 8.667 9 or > 8 or < 6.500 7 or > 6 or <
12 8.000 >8 <8 6.000 >6 <6
11 7.333 8 or > 7 or < 5.500 6 or > 5 or <
10 6.667 7 or > 6 or < 5.000 >5 <5
9 6.000 >6 <6 4.500 5 or > 4 or <
8 5.333 6 or > 5 or < 4.000 >4 <4
7 4.667 5 or > 4 or < 3.500 4 or > 3 or <
6 4.000 >4 <4 3.000 >3 <3
5 3.333 4 or > 3 or < 2.500 3 or > 2 or <
4 2.667 3 or > 2 or < 2.000 >2 <2
3 2.000 >2 <2 1.500 2 or > 1 or <
2 1.333 2 or > 1 or < 1.000 >1 <1
1 0.667 1 or > 0 or < 0.500 1 or > 0 or <
(meaning you have to make twice as many pars as your opponent)
Are you betting on the whole 18 for a fixed amount? Does a birdie count for 2 pars? Any presses? Sounds like an interesting format. I can remember playing a lot of wild players who would shoot in the 90's, but par over half the holes, with a few birdies thrown in. The 8's and 9's that would be their downfall. They might be interested in this action.
I don't understand what the data you posted represent.
I haven't placed a wager on a golf course in 30 years, but can remember not wanting to give up many strokes. You might try offering to take clubs out of your bag. In the summer, after the fairways baked out a bit, I could consistantly break a hundred with a putter. But I never liked these pranks unless I knew the people I was playing. I would usually tell people who wanted a lot of weight to practice more and come back when they were ready.
Phat Mack,
You can press thruout the match. If you only have 4 holes left you can use the same criteria but evaluate the holes before you agree and how your opponent is playing. I play a nassau with this front, back, total. The person can press the back or whatever. If he wants to do a 1 hole press you can offer if we both par you win. Birdies do count double, eagles triple. It speeds up play also because if the person is over par he justs taps it in for bogey or higher.
It makes you concentrate on pars which is my goal in my game. I'm not usually happy with a bogey so it's something I created to help my game without getting bored. It also focuses the other players game on pars. It's fun and makes for quite a bit of ribbing after the match.
paul
t makes you concentrate on pars which is my goal in my game. I'm not usually happy with a bogey so it's something I created to help my game without getting bored.
I like your thinking on this. Another thing you can do is look at the grass stains on your clubs after a round and determine which clubs you aren't using. If you find your 3-iron too clean, agree to use it from the tips. Even better, use a 5 iron from the tips to create more long iron approach shots. Just a suggestion. More for the creation of fun than Pos EV....
I good system I use in giving many shots is play both match and medal.I find giving shots to 10 -18 handicappers alot harder in match than in medal.I find that medal play gives the lower handicap alot bigger edge than match.Many 10 handicaps may play even par for 13,14 holes then blow up.Playing match play against these types is hard to beat but medal play they can really hurt themselves.
Bob L
Medal is the way to go but then it slows down the game you look for balls too long you have to reload and walk back to the tee if you didn't hit a provisional. Playing justs pars is like throwing the hand away and having the next hole a brand new deal.
Paul
I like match play for all the reasons Bob doesn't. It leads to more exciting shot making. When you're behind, and you know there's no difference between a bogey and a 15, it makes sense to 'go for broke.'
I agree match play is a little more exciting,but from my own experience I know that the lower handicap is at a disadvantage at match compared to medal.The only edge I can figure out when playing match play is that you play a long course and you both play from the tips.In match play I then like your chances for any sort of game.
I won't dare speak for Mason on his forum, but I'd say that what you should do when you're running bad is certainly on topic for this forum.
Honestly, I don't think anyone is going to take you up on it. My experience has been that the backer usually finds the horse rather than the other way around, certainly when you're talking about $15-20k br's.
JG
Anybody play poker on the Isle of Capri riverboat in Marquette, Iowa? I would like to hear about how the games are, how well the place is run, and how the tournaments are. Its the only place close to me in WI that spreads tournaments (Canterbury in Mnpls. is too far).
Thanks,
Jon I.
hate work.
I was shocked. I thought the number would be higher.
who doesnt hate work. but you read the word wrong its wok not work and 9 out of ten anglers dont like to use a wok to cook in. the head and tail of the fish stick across and dont cook all thru the fish. stick to painting and lead the culinary skills to your wife.:)
interesting (and frustrating) to see that Ray Zee would respond to this post, but not to others regarding cheating.
People here are under no obligation to respond to anything written by others. Why don't you leave people alone and stick to the topic of the threads. Your frustration about matters that do not relate to you in the least is the more interesting issue.
More fishing, less BS!
KJS
Mason Malmuth posts on RGP that he will make a post about cheating in the "Other Topics" forum of 2+2. He does....and I assumes this is where the guys of 2+2 (S&M&Z) would discuss this situation, which is important. If it is not important, why would MM announce on RGP that he will make a post here? MM and RZ are not the same people, but they do both represent 2+2. Cheating in the past and in the present is important to poker players. Fishermen would care less.
that's a prett low number. I'm surprised I still have a job as I like to fish AND play poker. As we all know, poker players are lazy, lazy, lazy. now go paint your house.
say, got any recommendations for a book to improve my fly fishing skills? I've decided I suck at fly fishing and I want to catch more fish. I always did OK in Montana but I think that was the result of fishing where there wasn't so much pressure.
I was the tenth angler polled. They asked me the question in florida, and I didn't understand the question, and then answered incorrectly. I think the Poller's name was chad.
Boris, I found that the technical reading was helpful (Orvis, Wulff, etc), but I fished better after reading Lyons and Gierach. I think the essayists put me in a better frame of mind to fish, and opened up my creative side. I started trying to figure out how to make difficult presentations myself rather than remember what the book said about them. my $.02
x
Since I tend to read about 6 or 7 different message boards on here, I often don't get a chance to read individual boards for a few days at a time. I just checked out the "Medium Stakes" board and hadn't read it in about 5 days or so. All of the 300 messages on there were "new," so there were a fair number of messages posted in the past week that I hadn't read but had already expired. Making things more difficult was that most of the posts were about some hand Mason played that had already expired.
I could check the archives to see what I missed, but this presents two problems. First, the archive file for the medium stakes board is huge, something like 5 megs or bigger. Not only does it take a while to load, but Netscape has a habit of freezing up in the middle of it because the file is so large. Second, it's a real pain to try to follow threads that are split between the "archive" section and "current" section.
So, two suggestions: one, make the size of the archive files smaller. Two, allow posts to remain in the "current" section longer than 4 days. The oldest message in the "current" section of the medium stakes board is from Monday. It'll make it a lot easier for those of us who only get to check out certain boards twice a week to follow the threads.
-Sean
Sean,
i use netscape also and when i go into med. forum archives i can start reading the messages in ten seconds or so and my modem is only running at 28,000bps. the reason the messages are archived sooner is that leaving too many up, slows the loading for the rest of them alot. we are hoping to go to a dedicated server soon so maybe we can overcome some of the shortcomings for everybody. maybe you need to visit more often to get the most out of the forum or try explorer for the forum. i wish you better luck.
A dedicated server will work for awhile. Then after awhile you'll need a server farm and some sort of storage network. How fast is this site growing anyway?
I've been thinking about this for a while, I think skill dominates luck more in gin than it does in poker. Of course gin is not a game like chess where skill dominates completely, but I base my opinion on this:
In poker a good player will win more from a bad player, than a great player will win from a good player. Right?
Well I think the opposite is true in gin.
It seems like a great player would win more from a good player, than a good player would win from a bad player.
What do you all think?
All other things being equal, I disagree. A bad player is not as likely to realise he is being outplayed as a good player is, thus is going to lose more money.
Dino.
I'm about to be a senior in college, and I am really uncertain about what I want to do. My major is not very exciting for me, and the current internship I am working at is painful to wake up for in the morning. The one thing I am passionate about, however, is poker; I love to play it, and I always look forward to my AC trips and pot limit games with friends. It has always been a fantasy of mine to "turn pro" and try to make a living off the game (I could probably get hold of about 12 or 13k in cash). Should I try it (after I graduate of course)? What types of suggestions do u have, and what are the positives and negatives of this life? Anyone get a regualr job for a sense of balance? Any pros have girlfriends, I would think that would be a major problem. Anyway, I've done all the reading, my game is sharp and I am currently doing well at the lower limits. Things holding me back are...the reality that my family will not accept this, and that I feel like if it fails, I will not be able to enjoy poker as much again (plus the fact that the 13k, while not being every cent I have, isn't an insignificant sum by any means). What about a 3 month stint to see how I fare? Or will I never be able to go back?
Wanabee Pro
Any pros have girlfriends
Yes,but NO MONEY NO HONEY. You should get better girlfriends outside casino.
According to my friend Greg, one advantage of being a pro is that you don't fear death, since it is the only relief from paying collections.
Regards,
Rick
There is a great post on R.G.P. that would answer alote of questions you are asking. It was posted by Ed Hill (who is a pro) a few months ago. Maybe one of the computer savy people can direct you to it. I turned pro (not that you get a diploma, you declare yourself pro...lol) a few years ago after I sold my company. I can say that the game was no longer fun it became a job. I made money but I encountered huge swings, luckily I had enough money to ride it out. At one point I lost 400BB and it hurt. I was getting beat by fish making their runner, runners and nothing was holding up . I tightened up and move down in limits. This game can tear you apart if you can't take losing. I also made alote more money in the private sector and chose to leave poker and play it part time and on the net.
Good Luck
I couldn't imagine being a "pro." I make much more money in a real job, and I am sure poker would become very boring if I were playing 40 hours a week. If you go "pro," you will have a hole in your resume that will be difficult to explain. Sounds like a bad idea to me. To each his own, however.
sounds to me like you really need to try this...live your passion, not your paycheck nor your pension., however, bet it all sleep in the streets...jmho..gl..
I'm only a recreational player so I can't comment too much on the pros and cons of turning pro but there was a great discussion about it not long ago on the General Theory forum that I found really interesting.
But, I do know a thing or two about getting out of college and figuring out what is next and so I hope these random thoughts help you.
I goofed off and tried a few diffrent things for several years after I left college before settling down. At one point I quit a good job almost spur of the moment to go poke around Europe with a backpack because it sounded interesting, I fell in love with a wonderful woman who was also traveling and wouldn't trade those memories for anything. I tended bar,waited tables, lived in a few different places at the beach and the mountians and so forth did some climbing, sort of did things I liked for a while. None of it had any "career potential" Flash forward 10 years and none of that matters, I'm extrmely well-established in my career and I've never been asked once in a job interview about the fact that there are a few gaps on my resume from when I first got out of school.
At the time, all the handwringers thought that I was "throwing it all away" and "wasting time" and all that B.S. On the East Coast, where it sounds like you live too, that sort of mindset is pervasive. It's all about getting that first BMW and the beach house.
My advice, don't bet it all, leave yourself some outs, but don't live your life saying "what if?" either, they'll be time for that all too soon. Frankly, there are few things you can do at your age that you can't recover from if you realize you made a mistake. Trying your hand at cards for a bit is really no different (and actually a hell of a lot more original) than any of your classmates who are dabbling in things they think they might like but aren't sure, acting, writing, teaching, surfing, whatever, you just happen to be passionate about poker so live it for a while. Neil Young was right, rust never sleeps.
Good luck, maybe we'll cross paths in AC sometime.
MAP
.
I was already loving MAP's post while reading, and as usual when this type of thing comes up, a line from Neil pops into my mind.
Then he wrote it out and I actually made a little shrieky sound of delight.
"Neil Young was right, rust never sleeps."
My story is much like MAP's in it's flightiness. I was headed for the cookie-cutter career, raised in a stable, smart, education-based family. Then I joined a band when I was 20, dropped out of college, and I've had about the best life I could have ever dreamed of. I'm 43 now and I've been a poker pro for 12 years and apparently I'm one of the rare ones who still LOVES to play, because I totally dig the people and the challenge and the absolute control over the only thing that is really mine: my time.
If poker doesn't work out, try something else. It's no big deal where the money comes from, or how much, just so you like doing it.
As to family, it you're a good dude and you're happy, they'll eventually respect you again.
As to girls, JOIN A BAND!! lol
Tommy
43!? No wonder your always so cranky you old fart.
Did you chose poker, or did poker chose you?
Don't do it because you hate your job, don't do it because its cool or exciting.
Do it because you love it, do it because you can't live without it, do it because it was what you were born to do.
Just take a look at some of the great players like Doyle, Mason, Ray, David. It almost seems as if poker chose them, not the other way around.
If you want to be talked out of it, maybe you should give it second thoughts.
For every star, there are hundreds who didn't make it. I suppose that's true in every business, but in other walks of life you can get a salary.
If the fire burns within, take a portion of what you have and see what you can do. Make sure you can beat the smaller games consistently for more than just a few weeks and then, if successful, move up, step by step.
The positives: you make your own hours (girlfriends excepted); it's a cash business; you'll be doing what you love; you'll feel great when you get on one of those orgasmic rushes.
The negatives: sitting in a casino, with it's arroted low-lifes, hours on end; tough way to make a living; the pressure of having to perform, and perform well, every day, every hour, every hand; you'll feel miserable when some tourist type draws out on you, ruining your day.
My advice: don't do it. Do something else and play poker as an avocation.
" . . . you'll feel miserable when some tourist type draws out on you, ruining your day."
Let's say a drunk, chip-splashing player flops a flush draw and hits against you, and then the next hand Mason or David does the same thing.
Does it really hurt less when a solid player sucks out?
In my opinion, in order to win over the long haul, it must be painless no matter who does it.
Tommy
I haven't read any of the other responses.
I'm in my mid-fifties. Of the regrets that I bear as my personal baggage, the most burdensome are for the things I had wanted to do (typically as the much younger Jake) and never even attempted. The things I wanted to do, then did, that didn't work out the way I'd hoped don't grieve me nearly as much.
Combine this with the fact that it is impossible to achieve maximum success at an activity you dislike and you virtually HAVE TO give it a shot.
Temper your expectation with the realization that when playing for meaningful stakes is now your obligation, your job, that pure enjoyment will fall off or even disappear completely. HAVING to win can be stressful. Maybe you'll find you don't want to be a pro. Maybe you'll hate it. But at least you'll know.
If you wait, if you defer, if you should (may the Almighty prevent this) GET FRIGGING MARRIED, you'll never know. And you'll think about it every day for the rest of your life.
You're only going to have what you need (youth, health, et al) this once. DON'T let the opportunity pass.
I say go for it. However, you need to set up yourself in a way that gives you the maximum assurance for success. By the way, I am just a recreational LLHE player, so take my advice for what it is worth.
I think if you are turning pro, you need to run your poker life like a business. You must keep honest and accurate records of your wins and losses as well as your poker expenses. You should plow your profits back into the business so you can move up in limits as you succeed. You must keep your poker bankroll intact and separate from your living expenses. Decide on sufficient bankroll and don’t dip into it for other things.
You will need to study and continue to study until you know how to play every situation you come across. You will need to play an “A” game. You will need to be tight and aggressive. You need to have discipline.
Get a good coach. If I were in your place, there is no way I would attempt this without a coach. I hear Bob Ciaffone is an excellent coach and is reasonable. I am sure he can improve your ability to win. He has been a pro and a prop player and has done exactly what you want to do. He may be reached at (517) 792-0884 or by E-mail at thecoach@diamondcs.net. His web site is http://www.diamondcs.net/~thecoach/.
Bob’s book, “Improve Your Poker”, which is a must read, has a short chapter on turning pro. He also has written an article about turning pro which can be found at http://www.booksforgamblers.com/html/article8.html.
I think that $12,000-$13,000 is a good bankroll to start. It is good enough for a $10-20 limit and, I think, a little short for $15-30 unless you are really good. It is not a big enough bankroll to live on and play poker at a level that will support you. I suggest you get some work to pay living expenses until you accumulate enough winnings to live and play poker.
Whatever you do as a permanent career, don’t work in a field that you are not passionate about. If it is painful to get up to face a job, don’t do it.
Please email me at tyro@socal.rr.com. and let me know how it is going, including your initial discussion with Bob Ciaffone.
Good Luck, Alden Chase
I can understand your frustration with college and your desire to play poker. I was in a similar position around a dozen years ago. I took a year between college and graduate work, and during that year I decided to go to Las Vegas and play some poker. I did not have the bankroll you can put together, and kicked around at lower limits. I also worked as a prop for a short time. I didn't make any money but I learned a whole lot in a brief time. You sound like you probably are a better player than I was at that point, so you have a better chance to succeed. I would caution you on a couple of things though.
First, you are too focused on what others think. I think it is smart to seek advice on this forum, but you are asking to be talked out of it. You are also very concerned about your family. If you have nagging doubts it will be very hard for you to succeed.
I think you need to think hard about what you want out of life. You are not happy with your current major or current job. Spend some time thinking about what would really satisfy you. Not just put a bit of money in your pocket, but really satisfy you. Along these lines, get Schoonmaker's book and figure out why you like poker. For me, all the reasons I play poker are the same reasons I chose a profession which is more rewarding and more important than poker. I say that bluntly, but its true. I wish I had Schoonmaker's book then, but I figured out a lot of what he says on my own. I came to realize that even if I could play poker for a living I did not want that life. Part of not wanting it was because I wanted to do something bigger than poker.
Although I don't make a whole lot of money, I do better than most mid-limit poker pros I think. I deal with matters much much more important and challenging than playing cards. So I am in a higher stakes game than I could be in playing poker. My earning potential if I chose to go into a better paying segment of my profession is better than all but the most successful high-limit players.
Despite my negative-sounding comments, I think you are in a great position. Think about all your options. If graduate school is in your future, think about all the good California schools near great poker. If you can get what you want in AC, there are obviously a bunch of great schools near there. You have the chance to put together a pretty good bankroll, and can maybe take some time off after college. You can get away from family and old friends if you go to Las Vegas or California, and have some fun. Even if you get broke, you won't lose all your enjoyment of poker. You will go on to something else and play recreationally someday.
I think you should take some money and take a vacation alone in Las Vegas. Knock around the poker rooms, look for an apartment when you don't need one, have some fun. Keep your eyes open and know that poker won't be as fun if you need to win. Play the Mirage 10-20 on dayshift and the little no-limit hold'em they have at Binions now. In these games I think you will see it's not easy and that there are a lot of unhappy people playing poker.
Most importantly, think hard about what you want your life to be. Think about the reasons you like poker and what other careers would satisfy those wants. Maybe you will find poker fills those needs, but for most who try it, it does not. What is important is YOUR satisfaction with your life. I still go to Las Vegas and enjoy playing when I'm there. I play some near where I live, too. But every time I play a bit more regularly, I am very glad I don't have to do it for a living. I would say good luck, but you will find luck has nothing to do with it.
I'm a recreational player but I've put in some serious hours (30 hours/wk in 1999) and I've fantasized about making a living at poker. But now I've played enough to know that I don't want to spend a work-week's hours in a casino and I wouldn't want to have to depend on my income from poker to live. Recreational poker is a pleasure. Getting away from the casino after a long weekend for a different life is also a pleasure.
If you take the year - and maybe it won't take a year - be careful not to lose your critical eye. And maybe you don't need to do this. Experience is a great teacher, but often we know before we start, which saves a lot of time (not that I've ever been able to save that time.) All the best -ray houle.
A professional poker player adds nothing to the world. Create, produce or perform a useful service. Something that actually matters. Accomplish something with your life.
What makes you think you would succeed as a pro? It doesn't sound like you have very much experience. And $13k isn't much of a bankroll. What are you going to live on? Do I sound like your Dad? :o)
I think you need to have a winning record as a semi-pro before taking the leap. You'll know when you're ready.
As far as your degree, change your major. Even if you have to stay in school another year, you'll be much happier in a field you like. I didn't like the field I majored in, and I never really used my degree. I wish I had changed major or skipped school.
One thing you're right about, girlfriends are usually a major problem.
I'm not a pro but I have an opinon. Always have an ace in the hole. Look at the behavior of the highly visable pro's we all know and love. 2+2's David & Mason, they have residual income from, books, magazine articals, 2+2. Mike Caro, the same. Roy Cooke, realstate.
Should a run of bad luck hit these boys they still eat and pay their bills. The life of a pro is an endless grind.
Continue to play, while establishing yourself with a residual income. I love poker, and play in 180 to 250 games a year. But, I also have residual income, it pays the bills.
SPM,...able to leap tall odds with residual income...
I haven't read all the posts so someone may have already said this...
Why not do a "poker internship?" Take a couple months (maybe the rest of this summer) and move to a good poker locale (maybe Tunica would be cheapest?) and play full time. See if it's what you want to do. Worst case scenario is you don't do well and go back to school knowing you need to focus on a post-graduate career other than poker.
In any case, you're still young enough to fuck up and not ruin your life so don't worry too much and try it out.
Regards,
Paul Talbot
nt
Well, I don't think most girls care so long as you're not a bum, but that could just be a function of the kinds of girls I've historically run with.
The biggest problem with playing full time-- and I did it for about 11 months at one stretch-- the the large amount of time you're forced to spend with total jack-offs. Let's face it-- your average poker player is nothing more than a low-rent, incorrigible gambler, and most of them are completely insufferable. They bitch, moan, talk incessantly about how they're hitting 70% in college hoops.. If there's one place where poker has disappointed me it's in the people who play it consistently. I'd always hoped that I'd find dynamic personalities flocking to the green baize, but I have only met maybe one-- no, two-- people on the felt that I'd ever consider speaking to outside of the game. It's difficult not to to assume a pretty dim view of humanity after spending a few solid months shuffling chips.
Oh. And I'd change your major to philosophy. You sound like a smart guy, so I'm sure you'll like it, and if there's one thing a philosophy major does is help you keep things in perspective.
I want to thank everyone for their comments and kind words. There are a lot of good ideas in many of these posts, and taking a poker internship is one of them. I think sometimes in life, particularly when things are not going so well personally and professionally, you cling to something that you think you can excell at. Poker is something I've always done well at (I haven't had to work at school b/c of the sweet pot limits games in the dorms...parents provide their kids with limitless bankrolls, lol). The crappy thing is that I have a good GPA, but nothing seems to create a passion inside me like poker does. I don't know if I could handle the pros at the midlimits yet, but it has always been a fantasy. As for my parents, they hate poker and hate the time I spend reading about it and playing it. They would probably not want much to do with me if I made the decision to go pro. There is a lot to consider, but as always this forum is one of the highlights of my day. I think a trip to Vegas for a couple weeks might be what the doctor ordered, but I really need to figure out what to do with the rest of my life...alll suggestions appreciated...anyone have a job for a guy with a PR major and a minor in psychology? =)
Well, Wanabee, you have received a real mixed bag of advice. I even spotted one (at least) pro who said don't. Let me be rather specific--I know you want to, so get together the biggest bankroll you can muster and go on. When you play in Vegas I'm sure that most players there are just like opponents you had in college. Jim P. S. Be sure to buy a round trip ticket.
"When you play in Vegas I'm sure that most players there are just like opponents you had in college."
dont listen to him, original poster!
just play real tight, and hope for the best as youre (continuously) shovelling your chips into the pot.
brad
Switching to philosophy could make things a whole lot worse for someone seeking principles upon which to make life decisions. The way philosophy is taught at most universities now can make people question the value of anything and everything. For undergraduate students the combination of modern philosophy and modern professors and universities can be as dangerous as the binge drinking they do to escape the nonsense. Those whose talents lie in the hard sciences are much better off in the higher education culture of today, although even they are not immune from the irrationalism that goes on. (Like a friend of my wife's who has her PhD. in biology who runs into the diversity and gender equity political crap in her field) I wasn't one of the lucky ones and had to put up with all the worst of what modern universities are. But if you can filter through the material with a critical view, philosophy was a great field, and may be again in the future.
Excellent points. Personally, I never had any time for most modern philosophy since it didn't seem to have much utility-- all that logical positivism, the esoteric episomologica crap-- all that stuff, IMO, can go. I always liked the moral philosophy, however, and in particular the stoics; or, to put it another way, all the philosophy that was concerned with how one ought to live their life.
I don't know-- I was only a 'B' student, and waded my way through I second-tier university, but I'm glad I studied it, if only because it taught me how to think critically. And, I think more people would find satisfaction in their higher education if they quit thinking of college as essentially vocational.
Just my two cents-- Guy
The reason that finding girlfriends is a problem for some mid-limit grinders has to do with stereotypical male/female gender roles. "Traditional" thinking women have financial security (among other things)in mind when choosing a mate, and a poker career sounds at first like anything BUT secure.
So the poker pro's field is narrowed. He is instantly rejected, or not even considered, by women who prioritize security highly.
I've observed that the nameless, faceless grinders, the ones who we've never heard about and never will, have a knack for being able to live in the moment, much more so than the average working Joe who is overly concerned with financial future and promotions and such.
This personality type, the freespirited drifting-through-life type, will have "problems" with a "traditional" women, whatever career he chooses. The good news is, there are women who live in the present tense as well, and these are exactly the women who are attracted, not repelled, by the poker pro's attitude and life-style.
Tommy
nt
I think that you should consider how much money you can make playing poker compared to what you will make with a real career.
For example consider a pro that plays $20-$40 Hold'em and earns $40,000 a year. Compare this to your college career job. With a real job your income increases every year. If your job is poker player you will have to keep on moving up in limits every year.
The good points to a real job are health and retirement benefits. When you're young you don't consider health care benefits, but when you have to take off from work for a hospital stay, a real job will provide you with income. So, as a poker player you will have to buy your own health insurance, and plan your own retirement account. I guess you can say a poker playing career is akin to being in business for yourself.
Since, you are young you can afford to take more risks, go play poker for a living. See how you like it after a few years, and compare that with the benefits of a real job.
Good Luck
Mark
I just recieved an E-mail asking for credit card information update with a Billing@AOL address. I contacted a billing consultant and asked what's up. She told me that the e-mail was a scam. Just for info for you AOL users.
Vince
I get these things on a weekly basis. They all look pretty convincing but alas we know they aren't. Usually I respond to them by putiing in B.S. information. Then those idiots try to use the info and find out its worthless :-)
Hi, i read one of those messages below where it was mentioned that there are coaches for poker. Who of the top-players coach and what does it cost. What does a poker-coach do?
Bob Ciaffone (web page linked on this site) gives lessons. Jim Brier has posted testamonials here on Ciaffone's coaching ability that make me think he is a very good mentor. David Sklansky also gives lessons but for a much greater fee than Ciaffone.
Maybe Jim and John Feeney will weigh in here. Jim was mentored by Ciaffone and John sought out Sklansky's advice early in his career. I think Jim mentioned once that if you are having trouble beating games up through 40-80 call Ciaffone, if you are having trouble beating a $150-$300 game call Sklansky.
I think Ciaffone charges about $30/hr and Sklansky about $300/hr.
Personally I think the mid-stakes hold 'em forum here is the best free coaching you can get anywhere.
Good luck,
Paul Talbot
I think you'd make a good personal coach Talbot.
Thoughtless Aggression...
The ego is full of disaster when left unattended. Short term memory loss may fuel the fire of a thoughtless ego, sending it on mission that will run a muck. Mr Ego was tight and aggressive, believing it was the road to the end of the rainbow, where the pot of gold would increase his net worth. Mr Ego was in high gear for he was playing in a low limit game and he was a middle stacks player. He had convinced himself he was the best at the table, but he forgot the rules of engagement. Even in low limit games the rules of engagement are important.
It happened from early position Mr Ego looked down and saw the poker god had delivered him a monster, Big Slick suited. He raised with confidence, for he new, they new, he was a force to be reckoned with. Player after player mucked there hands to the delight of Mr Ego, until Mr Button called with a sheepish grin on his face. Mr Ego thought to himself, I'll knock that smile off your face, I'll teach you to mess with me.
The flop came with two of his suit and two of three cards were hungry hooks looking for a fish. Unimpressed by the hooks Mr Ego fires a bet into the center of the table. He knew that Mr. Button would call, Mr Ego had him just where he wanted him.
The turn came a queen and Mr Ego was certain Mr Button would fold under the pressure of his relentless betting. However, Mr Button was a calling station and sheepishly placed his big bet into the pot. You'll pay for your insolence, Mr Ego thought to himself.
The river was the duce of flush, Mr Ego had made his hand and fired in the killing bet. "Raise," said Mr Button. Re-raise" replied Mr Ego, as he began to have his first thought of the hand, oh, he must have three Jacks. "Re-raise was the answer from Mr Button. Mr Ego fires another raise while silently praying, plays call me you clueless calling station. Mr Button answers Mr Ego's prayers and obliges with another reckless re-raise.
For the first time on the journey to the river Mr Ego becomes concerned. He hesitates for a brief moment then decides Mr Button wouldn't call a cold raise with a QJ even suited. He's got AJ, "re-raise" Mr Ego replies. Mr Button however is unimpressed and puts in another raise into the pot. Mr Ego begins to replay the hand. Then he remembers how Mr Button always calls till the river and then lets you know if he has a made hand. Mr Ego makes the crying call and is shown QJ off. The shattered Ego is stunned.
Even with a monster hand, the rules of engagement demand you ask, what might he be calling with. How does he play his hands. Remembering on the river might be too late. There's a morale to this story, a thoughtless ego has but one mission in life. It teaches humility.
SPM,...humility, better to have it, than be taught it...
My wife and I took a drive up Rock Ck. on Friday all the way to P-berg(50 miles of dirt road). Spent 3 hrs fishing middle section. Lots of bugs, enough willing fish, not too many people. It was a pleasure to drive thru a n unlogged drainage. Its not a coincidence that Rock Ck is the fastest clearing stream.
did you catch any decent sized ones farther up? i usually only get them to about 12 inches up there(20 miles on up the road), maybe its me. hows that crap doing with them trying to get a mine in up in the drainage, is that still alive.
I didn't land catch anything over 13". My wife had on a brown that might have gone 15-16". I am told there are large fish up there but I haven't caught any. I don't know the river well.
The Rock Ck. mine proposal is still alive but I believe it is a different drainage. I'm not well versed on the issue and could be wrong. I just wish they would quit proposing new mine sites. We have enough scars.
I was fighting a fire up Rock Creek and I saw by far the biggest mule deer I've ever seen. I love that drive. When I went to school in bozo I would take the back roads as much as possible from whitefish to bozeman. make it a two day or three day drive and fish the entire way.
Is it morally acceptable to post a private email on the internet?
Keith
b
I think it's ok if it's unsolicited. If someone sends me something nasty for instance I don't feel compelled to protect their privacy.
so ive been playing 6/12 holdem lately because i havent been feeling so good.
im a pretty nice looking guy, polite, good conversationalist, etc. in other words, a lot of times i talk to people im sitting next to (eg, girls) and we basically flirt.
well, im sitting there today talking to this girl and basically screwing around, and she blatantly tells me how she and a friend of hers cheat at poker! something about signaling each other or something.
now this girl is not a good player. i doubt she could even win with crude signals. but still, there it is.
now when i sort of turned on her (my normal 'mode' is never to say anything bad about anyone) and told her to 'take me off her list because i cant be associated with anyone who cheats at poker' (list being usual flirtatious bs) , she got really flustered because i said it loud enough for everyone to hear, and said that she doesnt do it anymore, that she only does it when she goes to las vegas to do it 'to the tourists', etc. and i doubt she ever plays higher than 10/20 he, or maybe 15/30 stud.
so there it is. a losing player whos probably only a marginally losing player when she plays partners at the low limit games.
nevertheless, it really frosted me, i told her i was really going to play her hard, and then i was just icily silent.
to be honest, it really ruined my poker time, sitting there next to someone who thought it was ok to cheat.
im starting to think i should just my headphones on even when im not listening to anything, and pretend i cant hear anything if someone tries to talk to me.
brad
p.s. she did dribble away all her chips.
>> im a pretty nice looking guy, <<
I thought this was going to be a serious post unitl I read that.
not to be confused with a 'good looking guy'.
i meant i look like a nice guy.
brad
I bet she was devastated when you told her to take you off her list. And then you played her real hard too. I guess you showed her.
not only that, i let jim (big white guy, big beer belly, stockbroker , you probably remember him, plays real tight) get taken home by her (because he was sloshed (6 or 7 beers) ).
the place just aint the same without you.
brad
p.s. i notice you didnt take exception to my proclaiming myself the best poker player in the world (in my 200 big bet post). thanks for the tacit appproval.
I think that a mechanic worked a game I was playing last night. The compatriot got Kings dealt 6 times within an hour. Nevertheless, I feel responsible for not noticing sooner and leaving. I think that cheating is a large part of the game. Its distasteful, but thats life. Cheating takes place in every business, on everyday of the year. Perhaps when money is involved, there will always be people who don't play by the rules.
" . . . she goes to las vegas . . . 'to the tourists', etc."
Should read, "with the other tourists."
I'm boggled by how many players travel to Vegas, play poker, get crushed by the locals, and then use the word "tourist" as if they aren't one.
Tommy
When I was there, it was the so-called tourists who had the biggest stacks and the soi-disant "locals" were all terrible players.
Could've been the full moon or something...
natedogg
thats funny. i knew 'to the tourists' should be in quotes, but i didnt really think about why.
actually, of course, i was mad about something else, but i just wanted to post it here to show how much most people have to fear from cheaters/colluders.
brad
I always like to play at tables where guys flirt with women. The reason is they are so into the girl (they think they are gonna get some) that they don't pay full attention to the game. One more thing I have seen guys go crazy at the tables for some of the ugliest looking women I have ever seen.
well, this doesnt apply to this particular case, but whenever i play long sessions, i get, ere, well, sort of frustrated. so i can understand lowering ones standards. heh.
brad
Be advised, there will be a reduction in rate of "comps per hour for food", effective 1 July, 2001. Current rate of $2.00 per hour played, will be REDUCED to $1.00 per hour. Under the new rate, if you play ten hours, you will have enough food comps, for a hot dog, and piece of cake. If you use that $10 comp, for the buffet, you will need an additional $8 of your own money.
There seems to be an obsession about cheating around these parts so I thought I'd share a funny story I heard.
A card room manager friend of mine told me this.
In a small room that he used to deal in, there was a really strange guy who would come in and play. This guy tried to cheat in the most blatant and stupid ways. He would take cards, say an ace, and he'd try to keep them out to use someother time when he got another ace.
Anyway, EVERYONE knew about this guy. He wasn't subtle about it at all. The thing is, he was a really terrible player and lost a lot of money in the game.
It became kind of a joke. Once in a while the dealer and players would tease him. A dealer might say, hey Tom, you have to give me back BOTH cards, not just the one you don't like. Everyone would snicker and he would pretend that he didn't know what they were talking about.
He was so good for the game, people wanted to keep him around. No one minded that he did it as long as he kept losing money.
They did have to do a bit of explaining to some tourists who would come to the game. I imagine some of them got upset but I don't know the details about that.
Anyway, the ONLY time this guy would raise preflop was when he had AA, so everyone just folded when he did it. It was kind of an unwritten rule.
Well, supposedly one day he went on a heater (as even the worst players will.) And it had nothing to do with the aces up his sleeve since he never got any action on those anyway. He was just winning on his normal hands.
Well, this is where the story gets a bit mean on the part of the card room.
They set up a deck so that he would get dealt pocket aces. Then they got a few other people at the table to go along with the gag.
As soon as someone asked for a deck change they put the tained deck in.
I don't know the exact details of the hand but it was something like this.
He got AA. Someone else got TT. Someone else got KQ of spades.
(You can see where this is headed.)
Flop was AsTs8h. It was capped all the way around.
The turn card was the Ac! The quads and tens full capped it and the flush draw called.
On the river the J of spades came and they capped it ain. Needless to say the guy with AA went on tilt after losing 12 BB on that hand. And he was a bad player to begin with. Suddenly he wasn't waiting for AA to raise anymore. It wasn't long before he wasn't winner anymore.
After the hand they secretly gave the guy with tens full his money back. When the cheater finally went hime they divvied up the rest, giving most to the dealer who hatched the idea.
(My friend refused to say whether that dealer was he but I suspect it was.)
Note that I cannot confirm the validity of this story, but even if it's not true it's still funny. -SmoothB-
What's wrong there? Sat. night and no action . At the Bellagio no list for the games 15-30 and higher. A lot of tables not open. The 80-160 shorthanded and the big game wasn't played at all. Went to the Mirage . 2 Games 20 -40 (one was shorhanded) and the 40-80 game never opened. No list for games 10-20 and higher. Maybe all that cheating storys do their part; or is it the non-smoking-thing ? Didn't saw a sat.night like that in a long time.
I played today as well and The Bellagio was very slow. However, poker is always slow in June in Las Vegas, so nothing usual there. By the way, the new no smoking rule is great. What do you think?
Well i like that they don't allow smoking no more. However i'm not sure yet how it can influence the game. BTWE Allways enjoying to play with you at one table. Lots to learn .. and i can be sure that it is a good game ( you choose it :-) ) Good Luck.. but not against me :-)
FYI.....All the smokers went to the Orleans.
That's because all the poker players are playing CLOSER TO WHERE THEY LIVE; riverboats and other casinos, outside of Vegas. I'm "back east". Since the riverboats opened, my four or five trips, per year to Vegas, have completely ended. I play in East Chicago, Indiana, with the same people, I used to play with, in the Mirage, (and for those who remember--Caesar's Palace poker room). Fighting a thirty minute, traffic backup, is nothing compared to traveling 2800 miles, just to play poker.
Chicago to Vegas=1800 miles
Everyone's at the Commerce.
As Mason states, June is a slow month for poker in Vegas. The series has recently ended and it is getting hot. That is why I travel to Tunica, Phoenix, and Los Angeles since the $20-$40 action is always great in these places.
Jim, How is the action in Phoenix? ( 20-40he) I am planning to go there in July.
I have not played in Phoenix for a couple of years but when I went there it was great. I played at Casino Arizona when they were under a tent in the middle of the desert in Scottsdale, Arizona. They had a great $20-$40 game every day. I understand that they have moved into a permanent building and that they have a 50 table card room. I plan on going next weekend.
how about a report on the place when you get back with the dough
(n/t)
Have a good time in Phoenix. I would also enjoy to read your trip report. Good Luck
When I open one of the forums, and aggressive add or something pops up in the same window, so i can't watch the forum. When I open a forum I have to press the Stop button immediately otherwise I cant see the page. What can be done about it?
The page that pops up is http://ad1.us-pm.statuz.com/adserve.iframe/About.com/RunOfSite@Top?%%RAND%% , but it gives only the screen that the page cannot be found.
Thanks
straight tequila night...
know what i mean fellers??
nursing my wounds..gl
Emigrants from the Kingdom of Slots occasionally turn up in Any2card Town (A2CT), they stay at the Empty Seat Motel. Confused by the poker action, they usually become calling stations. They rest their arms, until they receive the coded message inside their heads. Please return to the one armed bandits. During their interrupted stays at the poker table, they create a fun loving action packed game. But unfortunately they are a prisoner of the one arm bandits. Not truly understanding that they have no long term edge at the slots, in fact rumor has it, there is no short term edge either. This fact does not ever get consideration in their thought process. The gurus who write slot books, fill their heads with nonsense that assures them they can beat the slots. Casino's advertise 98% return on slots, actually it's 98% on selected slots but it's in small print you need a magnifying glass to read the small print.
The Town Consul of A2CT is looking for a few good elevator speakers. The job requires a form of public speaking, you will be speaking to captured audiences in casino elevators. The only experience needed is a love of poker and the applicant must have read at least one poker magazine article.
The working hours are negotiable, most successful elevator speakers, are out going and have the gift of gab. The elevator speaker will first address his captured audience by getting them to talk about their gambling results. The results will naturally be negative, this response is the speakers opportunity to begin the sales pitch.
The pitch is short and sweat and promises a real opportunity to win. "Oh yea! I remember when I use to play the slots. Win one day lose seven, I finally figured out the casino has all the edge, you just can't beat the slots. I met a guy in an elevator a few years back who gave me some good advice." he said, "learn to play poker, it's a skill game and you don't play against the casino so the edge can be yours. Yes, he was a wise man, I haven't had a losing year since I started playing poker..."
Those interested applicant's should go to the nearest elevator and start selling immediately. Your pay check can be picked up at any casino cage. Just bring the slot players to your favorite game, share basic poker strategy. Big cards beat little cards and most people aren't bluffing. Play your best game and collect a handsome pay check.
SPM,...Mayor of A2CT and a local celebrity in casino elevators...
I love that a PR person somewhere stated, "Let's advertise how much and how often players will lose, it will bring people in." "In fact let's tell them before they sit down that if they give us $100.00, we will give them $98.00 back." Sounds like a good deal to me. :-)
will insult these incoming fish and back they school to the slots....remember the casinos publicize their bad beats (jackpot winners)...poker players harrass their bad beats and either educate the fish or send them back to that loving handle...jmho..gl
he has as many post as the fence around my ranch in west Texas.....but what really gets me is that he is right so many times...if he was a real person, i'm sure I could disagree more!
All in fun, Andy. Are you English? Are you a PRO? Jim
Mike Caro has a big mouth that he can't back up. He proved that when he started this Cheating Interview bull. Now he's making big mouth comments about playing Mason heads up.
Well, I can't afford to wager $10,000 but I am willing to put $1000 of the $10,000 on Mason to get this match going. Mike said any game, any time. I like Mason's chances in limit Holdem or Stud. Especially against a big mouth!
vince
Okay you got another $1000. This would be cool if it materialized but I don't think Mason would want to play poker just for a grudge match. Besides, heads up matches don't really mean that much anyway. But if by some miracle it actually happens I'll bet my $1000 on Mason.
They are both expert players and betting on either would probably be just a pure gamble.
My sense is that while Mason would likely have a greater win rate in limit games than Mike over the long run, Mike may be a better heads-up player. What do I base those comments on?...I really have no idea...maybe it's the image I have formed of their playing skills given their poker writings.
skp,
Enough of the bull baby. Take a stand! Caro is more mouth than substance as far as I'm concerned! I know what some of the problems are with this type of match. It would be hard for a Casino to host it. You would probably have to set a time limit. It would become more of a tournament under most rules I can think of. Consequently, Lucky (Caro) would have a much better chance than he deserves.
BTW - How can you call him an expert. He has admitted up on rgp that he doesn't play very much anymore and that he just may not be as good as he has claimed. He admits that he is not very good at spotting cheats yet he has a cheating monitor service. You go figure what he is good at and please come back and let me know.
Vince
I thought I did take a stand.
If I had to make a bet, I'll take Mason in ring game play over the long haul. I'll take Caro in heads-up play.
That is based solely on my impression of them based on their poker writings. I have never played with Mason and have played for about 2 hours with Caro on-line.
As I stated on RGP, my position has been to have as little to do with Mike Caro as possible. This has been my position for many, many years. I do not intend to change it.
Mason
complete vw repair manual and tools...
"complete vw repair ..."
I'll play for that wise guy!
Vince
I don't believe Mason has ever played head up and Mike has a lot. So he would probably be the underdog there. However this is no more consequential than who would be favored in a checkers match. From the standpoint of the readers of this forum, the key point is that in most nine or ten handed limit holdem games of medium stakes, I believe Mason would outwin Mike by about a third of a small bet an hour at least. He would be a smaller favorite in a ring seven stud game. Of course to "prove" this would take many hundred hours of play.
I think that a poker match would be silly, since short term luck would determine the winner. But, let's compare the quality of the material that these two guys publish. My vote is for Mason.
Thanks Mark, I appreciate your comments. We also tell you how you should play, not how you would like to play.
Mason: "We also tell you how you should play . . . "
Speaking only of the S&M style of delivery, not of the S&M/Caro comparison . . .
I've gained tremendously from the content of S&M works over the years, but I still have a problem with the tone that results from the "you should" style that permeates their texts.
Some poker decisions have no gray area. Some have lots, and every degree in between exists as well. In the areas with little-to-no gray, S&M is the nuts in my opinion. But when a hazy area is addressed, one in which working pros do quite well using optional approaches than what S%M suggest, I think the black-and-white tone of, "This is right, this is wrong, this is what you should do" has the effect of weakening credibility.
Tommy
Tommy,
I don't think you should talk that way to S$M. Or maybe you should. I'm not sure. But you should do as I say. That I'm sure of. So do it.
vince
Tommy,
I would be interested in knowing what specific strategies you are refering to in the S&M books that appear not to be "black-and-white."
For over two years I've been reading and posting to this site. Whenever, I disagree with these guys I post my disagreement or check the math on David's work. So far, I have not had a problem with their logic or math and usually find out I've been the one that was wrong.
Good Luck
Mark
David Sklansky,
Don't you be a wuss! Mason would wup his ass badly even if not gladly. Put up a grand of that million you gots and let's get it on!
Vince
Mason,
Who asked you? You stay out of this. I'm running this show. All you have to do is show up and wup Caro. You don't even have to say hello to him. Just play.
vince
Matches like these are basically meaningless. There is not one person in a hundred who wants to spend much time playing heads-up poker and heads-up poker is a very different skill set than a standard full tabled ring game which is what both of these men primarily write about.
But if you want a real matchup, how about Ray Zee versus Mike Caro? Both of these men play high limit, shorthanded poker both limit and no limit. Both men have experience playing heads-up. I would nominate Ray Zee to be the 2+2 representative in such a contest.
Bill it as 'The Cheater vs. the Exposer'.
I think Ray got broke playing some guy headsup in Deadbug, Idaho. I don't think we'll hear from him again.
JG
"There is not one person in a hundred who wants to spend much time playing heads-up poker"
I love (no-limit) heads-up poker.
Send it to my PO Box!!
ukw
Bush the great has spoken! Global warming is nothing but a communist conspiracy to stop the west's use of fossil fuels! All you pinko, environmentalists out there better get ready to go to hell, because Jesus is coming soon. We're going to greet him with a giant gas guzzling caddilac limousine! I'm sure glad that Jesus will condemn all you tree loving communists to hell!
I moved 2000 miles partly so I could camp in a redwood forest 25 nights per year and hug a redwood whenever the mood hit. Thing is, the redwood forests around here get just a touch nippy at night. Can we get on with this warming thing?
:-)
Tommy
Despite what CNN and the NY Times spoonfeeds you, the National Academy of Sciences report recently released does not support the Kyoto Protocol. What it basically states is that if there is global warming, we are not sure what role CO2 plays in it, and whether it is man-made or naturally occuring.
And, by the way, Clinton didn't support the Kyoto Treaty, the Senate voted 95-0 against it, and only one European country has ratified it.
Why Al, you sound like George W.. We all know that you aren't. I can't really call you a communist because you went to Vietnam unlike George. George was just to drunk on moonshine or he would of gone. He wasn't no yellow belly. I'm sure glad to see that your coming round to the philosophy of tax cuts for the taxpayers(not those poor, or middle class socialists), bullets and missiles for the rest of the world. If they don't like our freedom, then we should just shoot'em.
Can anyone familiar w/ statistics solve the following problem for me..
In a certain game where score is not kept:
Team A plays Team C 1 mill times and wins .71 % Team B plays Team C 1 mill times and wins .25 %
What is the probability that team A can beat team B?
This is not a probability question. How often Team A beats Team C versus how often Team B beats Team C has no direct bearing on how often Team A might beat Team B.
You can compute the probability of Team A beating Team C AND Team B beating Team C or the probability of both Team A and Team B losing to Team C but that is about it.
This is a 2-parter. If there is an issue of style
either they will or they won't
the supreme court handed down two decisions yesterday. one case had to with allowing religious based groups to use public school property after school hours. the other case involved whether or not the police need a search warrant to use heat sensing technology on your home to determine if you might be growing dope.
The first case was ostensibly about separation of church and state but in fact had very little to do with this issue. On the whole it was a very unimportant decision. The second case, IMO, was really a landmark decision in that it put some much needed bounds on what lengths law enforcement may go to in order to spy on you.
There was no mention of the second case the headlines of the mainstream media while the first case was featured front and center. The mass market media totally sucks. I'm done for now.
Boris,
The Seattle Times (interestingly, the city's more conservative paper) featured it as their lead story:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/
KJS
You all are a bunch of dope smoking communists in Seattle. All those pinko, environmentalists came out and caused riots last year over simple good old fashioned trade. You grimy, grungers should be all put in prison. God Bless America!
Except for that bit about prison :)
KJS
The WTO is evil and maybe if you smoked some dope you would be calm enough to think rationally. By the way, does it get lonely living in a bunker?
He's just angry that his nephew Timothy recently passed away. Give him a couple weeks and he'll be back to his charming self.
.
Godless Communists........
Winning and leaving early to lock up a win say the poker guru's, is no way to play. You can't out wit the eventual statistical cleansing they say. They tell us about the randomness of the cards and the long never ending game. We hear that the cards break even for all of us, put in the hours and play from the Valley of Patience (VoP) and be tight and selectively aggressive. Winning is a long term objective and in the end you will be a winner. How about the concept of money management, they say it's nonsense. How do you know when lighting will hit. Put in the hours play from the VoP they say and everything will come up roses. If you have read even one poker book you can read between these lines and know what concepts I'm talking about.
To all you poker guru's I say bull, yes bull I said it and I meant it. If the masses, that would be all of us none pro's, took your advice we would go broke in no time or we might win and go insane. Lets get a reality check here boys! To accomplish the task they out line for us, we would need to be robots. Pro's may in fact be robots disguised as human beings. But, the rest of us are blood, sweat and tears humans and we are inherently weak and full of contradictions. We play our best game every time we sit down at the table. Sometimes our best game is played from the VoP, other times our best game might be played from Board Town (BT) where our emotions direct us to another plan of attach. Only on full tilt do we play from Any2card Town, most residents of A2CT are clueless their still learning the game. We know we will lose in the long run playing any two will do...
I've read in a number of places about being ahead in the game and being told to stay as long as the game is good and you're playing well. Well we've all been in that game and the game was good and we were playing from the VoP. However, someone forgot to tell Mr Manic, Ms Clueless, and the rest of the action junkies that we should continue winning. We read it, on some page in some book or magazine. So we stay and random luck swings it's ugly pendulum in another direction! There goes the lead, there goes our money and now we are riding home on pocket change, saying why didn't I leave when I was ahead.
How about those weeks and months when you can do no wrong. You play from the VoP and you win, you play from BT and you win, why not visit A2CT and you win again, boy ain't life wonderful! Then from out of no where comes the pale rider Statistical Cleansing, and I don't care where your mind set is you lose. Could someone tell me how the random cards know we've won enough and it's our turn to lose? For the next few weeks or months we see bad beats, it's like promoting two fighters to fight in the ring and not get any of the gate money. This random fellow sure seems to know when we have had enough winning. Too bad he doesn't know when it's our time to win. Or does he...?
SPM,...still having a great year, just rambling...
sometimes it just feels better to leave a winner. so there is nothing wrong with going home a winner rather than risking losing and being a sad SPM when getting close to the finish line anyway.
ray zee replying to a nash
I believe you were there the day I won 70 big bets in just 2 rounds from 4 huge pots (a personal record for me). Of course, I had to raise the turn with the 4th worst hand in one of these pots, and catch a 2 out jack to beat the "caveman's" AA's and another guy's 9's full" : ), but still....
I'm glad I stuck around. This came just before I was ready to leave and after a very uneventful 10 hour session in which I was stuck about $400 previously. All I'm saying, is that it works the other way too!
Ray could probably win 70 BB's just by looking at someone sidways.
He got to do all his interviews, both print and TV, got the book, will get the movie, got treated like a celebrity, got to have the big dramatic ceremonial sendoff, and is now a martyr to the far-far Right.
I'll bet that right now, at least 5000 "troubled" kids across the US have printed out that "Invictus" poem(which no one had ever heard of before), pinned it on their bedroom walls next to the Marilyn Manson poster, and are using that "captain of my own soul" line as some sort of rallying cry.
In our 'media-lized' society any high-profile execution will almost assuredly make a celebrity/martyr/hero out of the killer, like that phony 'tard Penry in Texas or that self-confessed cop-killer in Philly, Abdul Jabbar or whatever his name is.
There was an (in)famous mass murder here in Utah in the '70s; both killers were on death row for over 14 years; the two survivors had to testify over and over at various hearings; and the local papers rehashed it over and over. Some closure.
Ergo, I no longer support the death penalty. Most of these clowns just want to die anyway, after getting any kind of attention at all. Why give it to them?
If my mother were murdered, no matter the circumstances, I would be publicly and privately lobbying for a plea agreement of life w/o parole-all appeals waived, as what happened with one of Matthew Shepard's killers. Too bad it's "unconstitutional" for lifers to be "denied" their media access "rights".
I once read about a guy who whacked a guard in Marion and is now under "no human contact" in Leavanworth's basement. Sounds cool to me(even though this particular guy probably doesn't deserve it).
Thank God the Columbine killers whacked themselves. Can you imagine what THAT trial/circus/atrocity would've been like? They "won", as well; i.e. they wanted to "live on in survivors' nightmares", etc., plus the phrase "post-Columbine era" is now ubiquitous; although I don't imagine they thought their "victory" would include having to spend eternity in Hell carrying LBJ's robe and cleaning up His sulfuric defecations, but that's another post.
Invictus is a fine poem. Its a shame that a war hero like McVeigh went nuts. He should of been blowing up hippy communists rather than God fearing Americans. Its all Janet Reno and Bill CLinton's fault. God Bless George W.!
If you're offering 5000, I'll take the over.
Re: "Most of them want to die anyway"... Seems noteworthy to me that very few convicted murderers plea-bargain down to the death penalty.
Invictus is an awesome poem.
In Mcveigh's case he "won" the day the bomb went off succussfully.
"Too bad it's "unconstitutional" for lifers to be "denied" their media access "rights"."
I assume this is tongue in cheek.
the lawyers won, as the govt.(us) spent over 85 million on this case. when politics gets in there money is no object. i think he will be forgotten in no time at all as he didnt really reresent any faction..
Z,
He represented all that is bad in Cement. That's why all cement buildings are in jeopardy today from his faction known as the "Cementheads". Naturally people like you who live in toothpick houses wouldn't recognize this faction, but us citycementers are well aware of these Cementheads. I'm being bombarded by cement rays everyday effecting all sorts of disorders in my thinking and judgement as proven by this writing. So do not dismiss this case, be careful of the "Cement" you pour because that pour could be for thee.
wki
i understand the cement mentality we are getting all of them up here. everything they buy they put cement over and spray cemicals to kill any dandilions that may lurk around and in the cracks. then they wonder why cancer gets them. good for them.
There is no proof that LBJ now resides in the inferno. However, there is compelling evidence to suggest that Nixon was likely advised to bring marshmallows into the great hereafter.
I couldn't agree more about the death penalty, although probably for entirely different reasons.
n
whoops. wrong forum.
As long as death was by lethal injection it's too bad someone didn't blunder and inject truth serum by mixtake. "You just keep talking, Timmy, we'll get this straightened out right away."
It was the first ingredient in the lethal cocktail. I've had it administered by a dentist for a tooth extraction: instant lights out. In lower doses it loosens the inhibitions that prompt lying. (When I woke up I congratulated the dentist on his fine work. He'd butchered me. Truth serum indeed.)
Wrong.
The only person that won in this whole scenario was Marilyn Manson. Until you posted to this board, the entirety of Western Civilization had forgotten he existed.
Nice going, buck-o.
*heH*
Guess I shoulda said "Tool poster", huh?
I was thinking Eminem. But the clock's running on that guy, too.
You're right, Eminem is perfect(no wonder I spaced him.. :) ). And I actually like Tool...
No wait, Insane Clown Posse, that's the one
We have a flaw in our Constitutional structure: the head of law enforcement is also the head of prosecution. If the deaths of the Branch Davidians could (theoretically) be shown to be gratuitous and unnecessary, then the head of enforcement would (theoretically) be liable be complicity in capital murder. However, the only prosecutions to result from the attack at Waco (and also the attack at Ruby Ridge, Idaho) were of surviving victims. The murderers have never been prosecuted. It is less than unlikely that MS Reno would prosecute herself.
It was precisely this that prompted Sergeant T. J. McVeigh to pursue justice by a vigilante measure.
Oh great, another McVeigh right wing revolutionary. Go live in another country if you don't like it here.
Translation: they condemn what they do not understand
1. How did this post end up here? It was the last response to the "McVeigh Won" series.
2. You are making quick assumptions about my politics, young man, something known as "shooting from the lip".
3. Waco WAS the rationale for the Oklahoma City bombing. That's why it occurred two years to the day after.
4. But it is true that I don't want death squads snuffing people with impunity. Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus: We are slaves of the laws in order that we may be free (Cicero). Our laws are supposed to apply to all equally. Murder is still a crime, regardless of the murderers' employer.
You might be a communist. China might be better for you.
Translation: Ignorance is the cause of fear. (Seneca)
have some of your own medicine......
I'm a veteran. What have you ever done for this country?
This is what white trash neo Nazi types always do. They come up with bunch of quotes and phrases from philosophers, historical figures, etc. to try to support their beliefs and try to make themselves look and feel smart.
It never works. Do you think any of us are impressed just because you quote a couple of Latin phrases? It has the opposite effect when an obviously intellectually impaired individual like yourself does it.
"It is sweet and fitting to die for the wolf."
Look it up.
....with another politcal elitist. He isn't worth the effort. I'm sure he has his bomb shelter all stocked with canned goods and bottled water waiting, as we speak, for the "signal"
The give-away is the latin, Only douchebags use latin
I suppose you believe scruples are cured with Preparation H.
....that people who have to use latin when making political statement or arguing a particular position are douchebags.
Now about your reference to preparation H. When I use preparation H, I don't make a statement in latin about it. Nope! I just put some on my fingers and smear it all over my ass.
I believe that anyone who signs as Wogga (or with any variation of wog) is a douchebag.
Nothing personal you understand, you pathetic racist asshole.
And if anyone thinks that Janet Reno is a murderer they have a serious malfunction.
You inbred toothless white trailer trash types don't believe that police should be proscuted for things like Rodney King, or when a minority gets gunned down in front of the door to his apartment for taking his wallet out of his pocket.
On the other hand, a bunch of child sodomizing white trash go and stockpile enormous quantities of weapons. They abuse children. Then when the FBI wants to inspect their compound, seize their illegally stockpiled weapons, and ensure the welfare of all those minors, the white trash try to prevent them. So they surround the place and take it by force, and the leaders burn the place down and shoot a bunch of their own people.
And you think they were the good guys? And you want Janet Reno to be prosecuted?
Give the authority to prosecute to any jurisdiction in this country and not a single one of them would bring charges against Reno.
People like you make me sick.
Do you ever look around your squalid trailer and start hating the world because you think you deserve better? Do you hate African Americans, Native Americans, hispanics, etc?
I've got news for you so listen closely. You live like that because you are stupid and you don't deserve better. And I'm a white guy telling you that.
....when one doesn't tell the entire story, they become as much a douchebag as people who use latin:
"when a minority gets gunned down in front of the door to his apartment for taking his wallet out of his pocket"
This happened, but not because of a "police state" mentality. The 4 NYC cops wee not out to kill for the sport of it. This was an unfortunate, tragic incident. The 4 cops, in extremely politically-charged legal proceedings, were all exhonerated. One of the cops openly wept at the steps where Amadou Diallo was gunned down. These weren't your ATF 'Weekend Warriors Rent-A-Cops' with a badge and a gun shooting Randy Weaver's wife. This is a very bad example of raciem.
Contrast, however, the tragic Diallo killing with the pathetic "photo op" NJ governor Christine Todd Whitman pulled when she was photographed cuffing darkies and mugging for the camera. Right around the time a NJ grand jury was debating the merits of racial profiling by the NJ state troopers. Now there's someone who should be tarred and feathered. Yet her name isn't mentioned when people go off on their racial tangents. She should be. Hmmmm.
McVeigh DID NOT "pursue justice by a vigilante measure." Had he done so, he would have gone directly after those he believed responsible for the Waco incident: Reno and others, that is, not 168 innocent people who had nothing whatsoever to do with his gripe.
Instead he chose a cowardly act of terrorism by targeting uninvolved persons to vent his anger upon. Illogical and an act displaying utter cowardice. This had nothing to do with "vigilante justice." If he had perhaps instead stalked and tried to kill the leaders of the governmental organizations he blamed for Waco, then you might correctly call that an attempt at vigilante justice. As it was, however, it was merely a twisted, misguided, cowardly and heartless act which resulted in great tragedy. I often wonder how some people (e.g. McVeigh) can convince themselves that they are acting in a rational manner and doing something that is good or necessary. I don't know his history but IMO this act points to a deficiency in his mental reasoning capacity and/or severe psychological problems, as well as a complete lack of empathy for his fellow human beings.
By the way, acts of terrorism worldwide are generally somewhat similarly misguided, but few are so clearly so as in this case.
I'm not McVeigh's apologist. I'm merely an observer of history. And the observation is that a failure to prosecute government misconduct at Ruby Ridge and Waco led, and I mean this precisely, led directly to vigilantism. If you're dissatisfied with this result, perhaps you should consider agitating for comprehensive enforcement of this country's laws.
Of course that would require commitment and actual expenditure of your precious time. Why do that when you can spew personal invective in cheap shots protected by this forum's anonymity, and can PRETEND to be courageous and engaged citizens.
You won't even give your names. You're just gutless, ineffectual pussies.
If I'm not in Mississippi, I'll be playing $10,$20 Hold'em, like I will be tonight, on the SunCruz ship out of Hollywood. If you're ever in Southeast Florida, sign up for poker. You can sail with me and we can "talk".
Why would I want to talk to you? You aren't smart. You spew the same rhetoric we've all been hearing for years.
Why on earth should Janet Reno be preosecuted for anything? I don't understand this at all.
If you are conducting illegal activity in your home, the police DO INDEED have the authority to enter your home and forcibly make you stop.
If you resist, they are going to enter by force.
All of these things are givens. So what is your problem with Waco???
Those inbred white trash fu*ks molested their own children, burned themselves alive, and shot each other as they tried to escape the compound. You think these guys are martyrs and that the US goverment is the bad guy here? YOU NEED HELP.
I understand that you aren't smart enough to ever think deeply enough to grasp what I've just told you. But it would be enough if you would just shut up and stop wasting our time. You are embarrasing yourself.
"Those inbred white trash fu*ks molested their own children, burned themselves alive, and shot each other as they tried to escape the compound."
What evidence have you that your "givens" are indeed true?
Would you like to read something that is true?
On the first night after the thwarted attack upon the Branch Davidians, one of the TV network news teams interviewed an injured ATF agent in his hospital bed. He gave his name as Angel, although an angel he certainly was not. He appeared to be approximately thirty, of slim build, perhaps average height (he was laying down), with long black tresses. The reporter asked him to explain how he came to be injured. To my absolute best recollection, and to my astonishment - and if I had known he was going to say what he did I would have recorded it - Angel responded:
"I climbed through the side window into a second story bedroom and shot the man I found there. Then another man came through the bedroom door, but he had a gun so I had to jump out the front window and I hurt my ankle when I landed in the parking lot."
I searched the print media and the internet the next day onward and I could not locate a single reference to this interview, much less a transcript of it. But he said it and I heard it.
And if you think that climbing into someone's bedroom for the purpose of shooting him or her to death is acceptable behavior, then we cannot disagree more.
Any reasonable comment from a rational reader of this post is welcome (and that includes the person posting as Dr. Wogga, to whom I apologize for the "scruples" crack).
Man I am laughing my ass off after reading your post. I am laughing at YOU.
Are you implying that testimony that would implicate the government in mishandling the Waco situation was:
1) Recorded by a news team
2) Broadcast
3) Later covered up?
You must be INSANE!
Do you really think the media would bury evidence like this? Don't you remember Woodward, Bernstein, the Washington Post, and Watergate? Those two got pulitzer prizes and became clebrities overnight. *30 YEARS LATER* their names are still a household word. Who in the media would not LEAP out of their chairs to be the first to crack the Waco case and expose the government?
This makes no logical sense.
FURTHERMORE:
Even if what you say IS true it means nothing.
You don't know why Angel shot that guy. Maybe he had a knife and attacked him. WHY ON EARTH would an ATF ageny come right out and say that he killed a guy with no cause? That is just beyond the realm of the reasonable.
Please, I beg you, give me more of this. In some kind of perverse way, making you look and feel stupid makes me feel superior. I am deriving an immense amount of pleasure from this.
I must be as sick as you are.
1. Yes, it was reported the first night of the Waco "incident".
2. Golly, it doesn't strike me as funny.
3. I recognize your need to feel superior. It appears to be your most prominent characteristic.
First of all, your handle indicates prejudice: you want us to believe that the other party is a nazi.
Then you accept without question the government's position and version of events in Waco. Accepting what the supreme authorities of the fatherland say without question is the first indication of a 1930s good national socialist, believe you me.
Anti-government paranoia (as in the survivalist or militia mode) should not be confused with the necessary and absolutely necessary scepticism with which any citizen must accept his government's dictums. No exceptions.
Having said that, the cold, hard fact are these :
1. The United States government trampled all over the law in Waco. (All that abusing children stuff was never proven. But a precedent was created as regards gov't invasion og private property. A dangerous precedent for any democracy. The Gestapo, of course, thought very differently in the day of Nazi Germany.)
2. McVeigh was a mass murderer, pure and simple. Striking out at innocent people is inexcusable, no matter what the cause.
... McVeigh's story should interest us in one sense and one sense only (the rest of the stuff should be obvious to the sober minded) : Suppose a law is passed tomorrow, with popular approcal, that violates a higher moral code. That law could be anything, from prohibiting marriages between gentiles and Jews (ring a bell?) down to sterilizing retarded or criminal people *. What is a citizen who disagrees with that law to do?
--Cyrus
* Hitler was attacked for the racial purity laws he passed when he was voted into power. He silenced his critics by pointing to the harsh eugenic laws which the United States had at the time. (Doubt it? Look it up.)
Vigilantes go after the folks they think are to blame, not after innocent men, women and children who have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with their gripes. Terrorists do that. McVeigh was not a vigilante, and this was not justice; the OKC bombing was an act of TERRORISM, pure and simple.
I'm not trying to argue about whether the authorities were to blame or not for the outcomes at Waco and Ruby Ridge. I'm just pointing out that your terminology and what it implies is way off here: there is a significant difference in meaning between "terrorist act" and "vigilantism." Likewise in no way can the OKC bombing be even remotely construed as "justice", because the victims had NOTHING TO DO with the grievance.
Who said vigilantism was just? I believe that this is why we need universal application of our laws.
I didn't miss your point. Obviously you feel that biased of application of justice should be addressed and remedied.
However McVeigh's tragic actions really had nothing to do with that point except in the twisted mind of McVeigh. Further the tragedy in OKC was not brought on by the authorities but rather by McVeigh's warped outlook and actions. Again, if McVeigh had gone after those he believed responsible it would have been vigilantism. His going after innocent parties instead was terrorism. But even if he had gone after the authorities he believed responsible, it would be greatly stretching it and distorting the facts to say that biased application of justice caused him to do so. He chose to do so, and a more warped outlook than his I would find hard to conjecture.
The difference between vigilantism and the more unqualified evil versions of murder is that at least vigilantes don't go after innocent people; they go after guilty people that for whatever reason went unpunsished or underpunished. If McVeigh had specifically targeted only agents or directors involved in Waco or Ruby Ridge, you would have a point. I wouldn't agree with the point you would have, but I would recognize its existence. To call McVeigh a vigilante is too give him too much credit. He was just a very successful mass murderer.
Again, I am not McVeigh's apologist. The bombing in Oklahoma City was inappropriate? No kidding.
You can't raise the question him because he is, of course, dead. But his rationale was vigilantism. And this is not my fault.
I actually read posts to the point where I understand them before I respond to them. And I find myself on the defensive against, among others, an emotional defective who espouses rounding people up for extermination? Jees, give me a break.
"However, the only prosecutions to result from the attack at Waco (and also the attack at Ruby Ridge, Idaho) were of surviving victims. The murderers have never been prosecuted."
I believe that FBI Sniper Lon Horiuchi, the murderer of Vicky Weaver at Ruby Ridge, may be tried. I think there was a ruling recently on whether or not he can be tried, but the details escape me.
As we recall, VW was standing INSIDE the cabin, holding a baby. Thru his telescopic sight, LH claimed that he saw a man on the porch, holding a bazooka of some type, preparing to shoot down an FBI 'copter.
Following their mother's murder, the Weaver children were taunted thru loudspeaker with "What's mom making for breakfast", etc.
FWIW IMO McVeigh & Nichols shoulda been/should be chained inside a building slated for demolition; Koresh and his adult zombies, while child molesters who deserved being burned at the stake, could've/should've been easily/peacefully arrested weeks prior; and the cops in the Diallou case convicted of negligent homicide & gross deriliction of duty.
Thankfully, the prosecutor dropped the charges. He stated there was no way, a conviction could be obtained, given the "evidence". Personally, I trust my government. I like America. I was born here, and see all these strange folks flocking here. Must be a good place. I even like our new president. I think he's better than the last one. I like the country so much, I don't even vote, because I know everything will be alright--EVEN IF I DON'T VOTE. I think of myself, as a REAL AMERICAN. Where I come from, there were only two kinds of people, heartland whites, and heartland blacks. I never saw another type person, untill I was fully grown.
Maybe we're all "real Americans", but there's more to it than that.
My credentials: I'm an Army veteran who served without distinction in Korea during the Vietnam War (big deal). My father was a Navy veteran whose ship was bombed in Singapore Harbor in the first month of WWII. He served two years on convoy duty in the North Atlantic. He was in the invasion of North Africa, Sicily and Anzio. He finished the war in the Pacific, participating in the invasion of Okinawa. His closest friend was killed when a Japanese suicide pilot rammed his ship. I was born nine months after he returned home. (I'm lucky to be here.) My great-grandfather served in the Army of the Potomac during the frigging Civil War. My family was in New England before 1630. There was even one of us, George Jacobs, hanged during the Salem Witch Trials in 1679. So I really am a FRIGGING real American.
But none of that means anything. It doesn't mean that the government elected to represent our interests can be trusted to do so. You have to keep after them, because the government is populated by scoundrels.
Not paying attention to what's going on, not caring enough to speak up and not voting to make things better is the goddamned reason things are screwed up!
You want to know why thing are wrong in America? Apathy and ignorance, and that, my trusting friend, is you.
I'm not going to heap abuse upon you. This forum is replete with that nonsense.
But I am giving you a life sentence, with immediate parole. Here are the conditions of that parole:
1. You are to listen to the news, not music, while driving.
2. You are to subscribe and read one of the following newsweeklies: _Time_, _Newsweek_ or _US News and World Report_. For extra credit read Bill Buckley's _National Review_.
3. You are to awaken each Sunday morning to watch television, meaning _Meet the Press_, _Face the Nation_ and _This Week with Sam Donaldson_.
4. You are to read the Sunday morning edition of a city newspaper for international, national and local news, including editorial columns and letters to the editor.
5. You are to REGISTER TO VOTE. There are various ways to influence government to do what you want. There is voting, letter writing, lobbying, bribery, and more. Stick with the first two. We vote because even if we feel it is not important to us personally, it is important to our neighbors, our community, our country as a whole, and the very future of mankind.
Don’t be afraid to form your own opinions. Don’t let anyone else (like a religious leader or a dogmatist like Rush Limbaugh) tell you how to think. And when you’ve formed a good, researched, well-thought-out opinion, stick to your guns. If you’re challenged to defend it, do so. If you’re wrong, you’ll find out. If you’re right you’ll know that too. (One of the telltale signs of the strength of your arguments is that your critics resort to name-calling. They have no counter argument).
Never underestimate what one person armed with the truth can accomplish.
What does "kill file" mean?
Thanks
What does "kill file" mean? Some, not all, newsreaders allow you to specify topics and/or posters to filter out.
For instance, if you're tired of all the cheating posts, you could configure the reader to ignore posts whose titles contain "GCA" and authors containing "protopop". This would result in your newsreader not downloading a significant number of posts.
Note that not all newsreaders have this feature (Free Agent, for instance, which is excellent, requires you purchase Agent to have access to this functionality).
,.,.,.,.
The SPM walked into the Hollywood Casino poker room and got the last seat in the 10-20 feeder hold'em game. The SPM waits a few hands before posting the big blind. The game was packed with kamikazes and there was a no limping allowed rule in this game. When someone bets someone raises, then someone else would pick up the slack and re-raise, the last man in was always required to cap it... It was a capping experience that would make any dentist jealous. The great momentum of clashing egos, was fun for some and misery for others. Pots were big and the air was filled with laughter from the winners and crying from the losers. Playing from the Valley of Patience (VoP) and staying out of Boarder Town (BT) was going to be a challenge in this game. These kamikazes can get your blood boiling and before you know it, your chips are spread all over the table. They were like Robin Hood and his band of thieves, taking from the rich and giving to the poor. Hell, they even took from the poor and kept the chips for themselves. One old boy pulled out hundreds from his pocket so fast he was getting an aerobic work out. He got so frustrated he told the dealer to deal around him, until he could catch his breath.
The SPM, tried to stay in the VoP, but after getting some big hands cracked, he joined in on the insanity. The SPM's emotions exploded and his chips landed on the other side of the table. With only 7 red chips left it was looking like the craps table would get the rest of the tainted money. You know the SPM's attitude, never bring home money that has touched money that lost. Not wanting the kamikazes to see his pain and tears. The SPM tried to return to the VoP. It's a little unclear if he made it to the Valley or not but by some miracle he took those seven red chips to the winners circle. Then the game got short handed at 10:20 pm and there were only four players left. The SPM had had enough, and walked out of the casino, he was a dazed and bewildered Celebrity. But he had all his money back in his pocket and a little more to spare.
When the SPM wasn't being tortured by one, two, three, four, or more kamikazes, he watched the action with amazement. The pre-flop barrage of flying chips created huge pots before anyone knew what they had, the truth is they probably didn't care. After the flop more illogical betting raising and re-raising. By the turn some players would just get plain tired of throwing in chips. So they would muck the any two cards, catch their breath and wait for the next opportunity to fire in some more chips. They all had high hopes! There was no waiting for the right two cards. The order of the day was play any two cards, because the next two might take them to the winners circle. At the river the action slowed and then the climax of showing the winning hand. The winner could have big slick, little lick, or the best no pair hand. Then no matter what the winning hand was someone would say... "NICE HAND"
Could someone please tell me what that means. The action is over, the climax of showing the winning hand ends and then someone says, Nice Hand? The statement just doesn't make any sense. Now if a guy was home alone and his wife was out of town for an extend period of time. Then if he looked at one of his mitts and said nice hand. It would make sense to everyone. But, how can you say nice hand to a guy who's winning hand is little lick (six nine off suit), or even pocket aces. He didn't deal the cards, they are just two random cards hooking up with some random flops, why do we say nice hand. Lets congratulate the winner by saying hey nice flop, nice turn card, or hey nice catch on the river, or even hey you played that hand like a trooper. But not NICE HAND.
SPM,...looking for some answers, and happy I missed a statistical cleansing...
"Nice hand" is like the word "love." So many meanings. It means hey you really made a nice play there. It means wow you sure had one heckuva flop. It also mean bite me, screw you, and I hope you spill your coffee. Such a useful phrase, with it's many meanings masked in cordiality.
Tommy
i thot nice hand was a nice way of saying :"how could you have played that miserable pair of rags you lucky sob and i wish you had half a moron's iq so you could at least start to comprehend how amazingly lucky you were you a++hole...nice writing...hehe..
also rosey palms sometimes still the best looking in towwn...gl
with the proctoscope 10 inches up - you know where.
"some people do this for fun"
The game you describe is not fun for me and I don't conisder it a GOOD game but some do.
By the way Phil - nice hand.
:-)
I agree one hundred percent! Nothing is more annoying then getting beat by some moron that got stupid lucky on a 2 outer and have some other certified basket case at the table say, "Nice Hand." It makes me want to smack someone! Nice hand should only be used when someone plays their cards partiularly well or makes some unmitigated monster hand that leaves every other player at the table in awe.
Wonderful post, wonderful writing.
SPM,
Isn't if funny how everyone tries to appear to be nice at the casino poker rooms?
Nice hand? When I play in private games, the phrase is usually, "You SOB, I had you beat before the river. Just wait, you'll be broke before midnight" Or, "You lucky $%##@^#$." When I say this they usually laugh, because they're having a good time. In these games the objective is to "get your goat."
It would be a breath of fresh air if someone in a casino finally said,"You lucky SOB, I'll get you next time."
Good Luck
Mark
"One old boy pulled out hundreds from his pocket so fast he was getting an aerobic work out."
Classic!
Vince
SPM,
Phenomenal Post - Absolutely Phenomenal.
"Nice Post"
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
Tiger, Lehman, Price, Els, Garcia. Longshots: Allenby, Appleby, Franco, Romero, Maruyama(or any other AUS, NZ, Latin, Asian and African players), Durant.
Singh/Els/Garcia all do better than Mickelson/Duval/Love. Monty/Westwood/Clarke all miss the cut.
Final scores: Tiger -8, Lehman -2, Price E.
Tiger Woods..of course.....all those lousy white guys don't stand a chance--oops....I'm trying to be "politically correct", God Bless George W!
I heard Tiger was even money to win. Unbelievable. Of course, he has won 20 of the last 40 he's played in, so I guess even money is about right. And he did win the last Open by only 15 shots.
Langer -6, Woods -2, Els -1
golf ain't your game.
.
RGP is wild alright. Daniel Negreanu has threatened Gary Carson physically...Brunson's kid has done the same......GCA........cheating scandals that make the internet forum here look civil.....it's much more of the Jerry Springer show than here... I hope they all come around and flame away.....sure is fun!
what is that address, please. Jim
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_q=&as_ugroup=rec.gambling.poker
I posted there once. The dental surgery just about busted me and I'm still walking with a limp.
I used to mainly lurk on RGP, it has turned into such a bad scene these days that the poker content is close to 0%.
My advice stay here if you want to talk poker or go there if you want a fight, Carson is ready for everyone at this point.
What is the matter with Carson? I remember he used to post here, but Mason basically told him to get lost. Having looked at the RGP sewer the last few weeks, I now see why.
Carson has been viciously attacked by Negreanu and Kid Brunson. Doyle seems to think that it means nothing that he knew Tony Spilotro well.
I realize that imitation can be considered a form of complement, but please don't impersonate me. If your actual name is really Jake also, then perhaps we can both use our surnames.
If you would like to communicate privately, my included email address is valid.
Sincerely,
Jake Jacobs
ok, Jake Staab..
Are you Jake Jacobs the backgammon writer?
.
(a post I made to rgp)
I asked Mason once a few years ago what he thought of the cheating threads on rgp at the time and his reply was, "I play and play at these places and I keep winning." That kind of sums it up for me, too. I haven't played all over America, but there are some places I've played a lot. Here's my take on where I have been:
Arizona: I have played thousands of hours in ring games against the top players in AZ and the games must be on the square. I would have been broke otherwise. I also play the biggest tournaments in town and have done very well(maybe I'm a luckbox from Mars; this is a recurring theme). One rgp/2+2-er you all know had been playing in small tournaments that I didn't frequent, and when he started playing the bigger $ stronger field tourneys that I do frequent, he told me they were crooked because he wasn't doing as well as he had been in the $25 tourneys at the Fort. I shared with him my results for the previous year or two(at that time, I was cashing >40% of the time), and he didn't believe it. He then claimed that in the NL rebuy tourneys, partners were going crazy against each other in the early rounds pumping up each others' stacks and taking the rebuys. This statement in and of itself showed he had very little understanding of the mathematics of tournament poker. I had my answer why he wasn't doing well.
Bellagio: I just about never lose there. I know that means I'm running decent, but for me to be winning 90% of my sessions while being cheated would be about eight sigmas out. I never have played bigger than 80-160 there, which I imagine still covers 99.5% of the poker played in America. As for the 2-4 and 3-6 games that are the next step up to which I aspire, I would bet my life that those games are on the square, based on my personal knowledge of the participants therein. I won't comment on the 10k-20k games, as I don't know the players personally and have no data of my own.
Mirage: The big story about that place five years ago was that the 20-40 games were three teams of three and the one sucker or something of that sort. This was like dogma. But I'd play and play and win. I think players who weren't very good and able to adjust would have a hard time in that game because of the local pros' tendency to overplay everything. I think this style of play is slightly incorrect against an optimal player, but against a tourist who isn't good at reading hands and prone to laying good ones down or putting in too much money when he is behind, it may be correct. Then the losing players would think that they were being ganged up on.
Orleans tournaments: I seemed to do well there, but I always thought that the prize funds were less than what I expected at the final tables and given the unauditable way rebuys were handled I am not surprised at allegations of skimming. But it's been a while since I've played the tourneys there, and I don't believe I did my usual final table audit. Plus when rebuys and buyins are disproportionate, there can be uncertainty unless you know exactly how many people started the tournament, but given their policy of letting people buy in to busted seats up to 12:59... Anyway, if I was going to set up tournaments for skimming, I can't think of anything else I'd do different. But I understand they have tightened up their policies a bit since the last time I've played there. Maybe others can comment.
Bay 101: I had always heard tales about the "locals" (hows that for a pc term, jen?) were playing teams in the big games. Never saw it. And if they were, they didn't do a very good job against me. There were good players and bad players, and over the long run, I'm pretty sure the good players usually won. And the Omaha players. Aiyah!
LA: Once again a place that I've heard horrible tales of the "locals." One well-known personality is often alleged to be manipulating half the field to pump him up. I haven't seen it. He played his hands and his opponents played their hands. And he knows how to play poker, folks. At the finale of the Bike events last week(the place to cheat, no?), there were numerous "locals" in the field but only one made it to the final table. I played with him for much of the tournament, and he worked his ass off to get those chips. Believe me, I understand the mathematics of cheating in poker tournaments. I would be well aware of softplaying when it was occurring, but my experience is that I have not been a victim of it.
I have also heard similar tales about teams of "locals" in the big games at the commerce. I saw zero evidence of this. I played last Saturday night there in the biggest game in the room and was the only "non-local" in the game. If the cheating allegations are true, this would be the spot! But it was a great game!! No team play. And not a lot of good play, either.
Chips: I don't dispute that chips can be passed in and out of tournaments. At every final table, I count to see that the final chaps equal the buyins + a small possible fudge factor for chipping up (the worst it could be would be summation of [(T-1) x V]'s where T is the number of tables remaining at the chip up to V). For example, at the Bike tourney last week, the chip up fudge factor would have been 6x25 + 2x100 = no more than $350 was introduced into play from chipups. So if even one $500 chip was slipped in, I would've known. With the advent of widespread internet poker reporting, these chip counts are becoming a part of the public record. Someone show me huge discrepancies. I don't think they are there. I'm not saying it can't happen or doesn't happen, but I will say I play tournaments without too much fear of being cheated. And I have no reason to feel that anyone has been taking EV out of my pocket in large chunks.
JG
(n/t)
I've been watching all of the pre-U.S. Open coverage this week and the thing that strikes me the most is how dishonest these pro golfers are. Both to us and to themselves.
Why can't they all just admit that the only chance that any of them has of winning this tournament is if Tiger screws up?
Just once I want to hear a professional golfer say, "Well, Steve, if I play the most-perfect, flawless golf of my entire life for four days, I should be able to win this tournament. That, and if Tiger gets hit by a car."
I think they've said as much.
"We all know that Tiger might very well have a great chance to win this week. I think you come to the realization that you have to play very well and nearly mistake-free, and expect to be battling with him come Sunday."-David Duval
They have to play perfect to be in contention??? just give Tiger the trophy, chop the rest of the pot, and let me play Southern Hills four days in a row.
Colin Montgomerie when some reporter asked him about his chances at the US open...
"...is Woods injured?"
Adam.
I am sure it is only tempory - or is it.
There have been plenty of 5 year careers on the tour but I doube if Woods falls into this category but you never know.
English bookies had him at 10/11 to win - used to be 3/1 was real short odds.
I will figure out who to beton for the next 2 days hell Woods is only 9 shots back maybe if I get 10/1 I'll put a few sheckles on him.
does anybody know of anyone who tried to develope psychic powers to beat poker or blackjack or anything?
i was talking about the general level of irrationality of people and opined (gee, my first use of that word) that it must have happened (with the predictable result).
brad
Not relying on psychic powers, but Doyle Brunson
Brunson's last two sentences are right on. Have you ever been told something but somehow knew that you had been lied to yet you weren't able to explain why? Same thing.
Communications theorists have discovered that words are only 8% of communication, tonality makes up 32%, and body language makes up the other 60%. When you KNEW you'd been lied to you subconsciously perceived incongruities in the liar's combined paramessages.
nt.
It's my friend's birthday tomorrow (Thursday) and we're going to stay over at the Trop in AC. Haven't been there in awhile an am curious to know of how the action is on a weeknight (we should be getting there like 10 pm). Particularly how are the 3-6 and 5-10 games there? I'm not planning on sleeping so I also plan on going to the Taj at 4 or 5 am...what are the games like there in the wee hours of a weeknight, particularly the games below 10-20 (though I don't rule that out). Thanks a lot.
Jeff
Good day, this is the Mayor of Any2card (A2CT) and I'd like to tell you what happened today.
The Town Mental Institution is missing an undisclosed number of inmates. Two days ago it was Tuesday and a group of Texas Hold'em Kamikaze raided the Hollywood Casino poker room. A 2+2 post on Tuesday explained the action of those Kamikazes. Most of them crashed and burned. Unfortunately some of the Kamikaze's managed to bail out before they hit the felt.
Official investigators for the Town believe one or more of these Kamikazes broke into the Gamblers Anonymous ward of the Institution and told the Action Junkies about the easy money at Hollywood Casino poker room. Wednesday morning an undisclosed number of these mentally deficient gambler's escaped from the Institution and showed up at the Hollywood Casino poker room.
The SPM walked into the Aurora, IL poker room on Wednesday afternoon. He sat down to play from the Valley of Patience. The dealer put the cards in the air and before the last player received his second card the betting was capped. The SPM smiled to himself and rubbed his hands together under the table. He was expecting an increase in his poker winnings, and he was patting himself on the back for showing up for this game. This maybe what they mean when they talk about fuzzy thinking? He mucks his first hand which would have been the nuts. No worries it was only the first hand he thought.
After an hour and a half the SPM was out five stacks and he received a phone call in his head from the Director the Town Mental Institution. "Be on alert for some reckless gamblers," he warned the SPM. "Too late!" The SPM replied. "They have me hog tied to my seat, and I can't even go to the head." "Then stay in the VoP," the Director encouraged the SPM. "I'm in the Valley yelled the SPM, every other junk hand I muck, turns out to be the nuts and every group one hand I play is an also ran." "Oh!" Whispered the Director as he faded into one of the many hiding places, inside the mind of the SPM.
Nine and half hours later the SPM limps to his car while he asks himself, what happened? You got statistically cleansed," replies a familiar voice in his head. I got what? You didn't win this elevator ride to your car what you got was the shaft.
The SPM rewinds the game in his head and replays some of the hands quickly. Lets see every AQ you flopped two pair and the fourth flush card hit the river. Pocket Jacks cracked by pocket Queens three times in a row. Every straight you hit on the turn was destroyed by the third flush card. Every big slick played flopped nothing turned nothing. Stop torturing yourself! Yells the saner side of himself, take a deep breath and forget about it. I'll forget about nothing replies another voice, and if you don't mind your own business I'll... you'll what the voice cries out! I'll check us into the Town Mental Institution for a reality check another voice responds. Then Basement man steps in and yells shut up and go to bed!
SPM,...I think this would be a good time for a time out...
"mentally deficient gambler's "
Are there any other kind?
Vince
30-60 the other day in an L.A. card barn, one player was basically playing every hand. While he fluctuated wildly up and down, after 6 hours he left the table a $5,000 winner. K-4o, pocket deuces, Joker-blank card, it didn't matter, when he started to hit, there was nothing that could be done. I survived as, I believe, the only other winner at the table during the stretch he went on a rampage, despite the fact that, on one hand, he cold called my A-K 3-bet with 3-2s and the flop came, of course, K-2-2, with, of course again, an Ace coming on the turn (and, of course, a blank on the river).
Sometimes, when it rains it pours, but the sun will come out tomorrow. Meanwhile, let a smile be your umbrella.
They play hold 'em with a joker in Gardena?
I was joking. Some players here do play, however, as if they expect it to come on the flop. . .
Anyone seen or heard from scott in a while? I talked to Krister not long ago, and he told me tales of scott traipsing around California doing considerable damage to the poker community, monetarily as well as aesthetically. Any stories, real or not (please note which) would be appreciated. Thanks.
Joe
I've been offline for a while, but I have recently heard from the elusive scott. He has done well in poker since his move to the country to the north. (I see it as a country.) I cannot vouche for the aesthetic facet of his accomplishments. I may see him face to face in the the coming weeks, if "seeing" one so enigmatic is in fact possible. Perhaps he will be proded to post an update. Email him at his regular address and he will absorb your communication in time, perhaps reacting with a written response. And be well, Joe.
Now I must take a deep breath and catch up on rgp.
John,
I was on my way to hotmail to seek you out when I spied your monika here in the other topics forum. Good to see you can still type. Hope everything is fine with you. I take it that this is a permanent (hopefully) return. We missed ye Johnny.
vince
... it is I. But Vince, I never really left. I was just away from my computer for a couple of weeks. But I've also generally been posting less, though still lurking. In fact, I'd better go right now. Gotta warn scott about "Pretty Boy" Nebiolo.
ask him to turn sideways and stick out his tongue. if he looks like a zipper its John.:)
.
Still getting praise for "My" Book IPM.
RCP
John,
I made him buy me a beer at the Commerce a week ago because he had a better day than me. But now that I think of it, maybe I should have security check his ID. I don't need a smart 20 year old in my games :-).
Regards,
Rick
Saw Scott at Commerce around the 10th. He has been doing well in the yellow chip games. He is living in Hollywood and also doing some writing. I justed missed Rick N. This was my first time playing at Commerce. I played 30-60 and 40-80. The games were pretty good but the rake was really high. $10. a half hour for the 40 game. The games were sane, not crazy like so many people had said. I was on a two week vacation. I played 7 nights at the Bellagio, 4 nights at Commerce then back to the Belliago for the final three nights. Did good at Commerce but not so good at the Belliago. I went to Vegas with an attitude. I wasn't going to let the regulars push me around. I played back at them too much and called too many hands down. My question to you guys is: Will tight, solid play get the money in the 30-60 at the Bellagio?
That head up cheating move where the previous discards come out on the flop is fairly well known. Meanwhile dealers are changed often. And Andy Beal played about six head up matches. Could this be a case where one dealer during his shift, decided on his own to give one of the players help against his wishes and was disgruntled when he was not rewarded for it. (since it was unsolicited and unneeded)?
I tried to post my response on rgp but for some unknown reason it does not show there. Her it goes:
Everybody on this site is complaining about that GCA is just guessing things and they can't prove anything at all. You now do just the same thing ... wondering if things might happened this or that way. But anyway: why not just watching the surveilance-tapes to clear this matter once and for all. In my experience as a card-counter i sure found out that the Bellagio has top notch surveilance that allows them to even count the hair on my head. I just can not believe that they didn't tape an event like a 20000-40000 game . When people response to GCA-guessing-post with even more guessing then this CIRCUS never will end. I sure hope that the top players will soon find more time again to answer poker-related questions on 2+2 ! Here without guessing my ad to the honst-player-list:
1. Lancey Howard
2. The Cincinatti Kid
3. KNUT
Have a nice day
Ups.. just found out why my post didn't show up. It needs 3-9 hours. Well i won't post there often : i like this site better anyway. bbye
I don't see how the security cameras could catch this alleged method of cheating. The method involves a player souping his hole cards and those cards ending up as the turn and river cards on the next hand. The souped hole cards would be mucked face down, so the cameras wouldn't be able to catch the alleged cheating.
I also don't quite follow David's guess that perhaps this was a case of unsolicited cheating. It would take some time, I would think, for a player, not knowing it was occuring, to catch on that the turn and river cards were the cards he had just had for his hole cards. By that time, the dealer would change. But maybe I'm naive about these things.
I'm definitely naive in that I hadn't even thought about the possibility of such cheating. David says this is "fairly well known." I wonder how many posters here agree with that. I never play head up or in games bigger than 40-80, so maybe it's irrelevant at that level of play. Or is it?
Re: well-known -- You'd be hard-pressed to find a dealer who has been on the job for any length of time and doesn't know of it. This is, of course, distinguished from 'widespread'.
How can you equate my guessing with GCAs guessing? They present their guesses as fact. I admitted I was just speculating.
that i put you on one level with these people but i think you just give them another reason for more stories to make up. However .. how you think about the surveillance-tape ? Bye KNUT
according to Mr.Sklansky, they haven't made everything up. He did acknowledge that he played for a sponsor that was affiliated with Chicago organized crime.
Not quite. I said my sponsor told me that HIS sponsor was affiliated. He could have been lying to me to help insure he got the right count
This is a repost from above. I'll leave you alone. Everyone talks well about you. I guess you were a young man then, and young men do make mistakes. I apologize.
Ok, you've convinced me. I bought Sklansky's video, and he seems to have genuine remorse when he talks about his blackjack days. I'll drop it. I'm sure he has had his share of heat in the last 20 years. The FBI certainly would have a file. The odds are probably ovrwhelming that he is probably straight now.
Internet poker is a different story since these sites are outside US jurisdiction. Its a business that isn't going to go away. I'll quit complaining about it also. You've convinced me, M.
"He could have been lying to me to help insure he got the right count"
What are the odds he was lying?
vince
Probably better than the odds that he got the wrong count.
Good point, good enough.
vince
..just left RGP..GCA post was made today 14th.
so what?
lee munzer described bay area clubs as being filled with dirty, sleazy people. this couldn't be farther from the truth. sometimes I wonder where these people play poker.
I recently played in the Bay Area for the first time in many years. The club (Oaks) was smaller than the L.A. card barns, and not quite as bright. So this may contribute some to the impression of "sleaziness." Also, there was a higher percentage of people in jeans and T shirts than, in general, I see at the big L.A. clubs. There was a higher percentage of African Americans and a smaller percentage of Asians than I see in Commerce. (I would hope this is not what Mr. Munzer meant by sleazy.)
The neighborhood is not upscale, but I enjoyed the club. I'm not sure what Mr. Munzer meant by "dirty" people, but it didn't impress me that way. Again, I was only in one club on one day, so take that for what it's worth.
The people were much nicer and more cordial than in L.A. There seemed to be more of a small-town, down-home friendly atmosphere than I am used to in L.A. Both the casino personnel and the players were awfully nice. I ran into one jerk who got into an argument with the dealer about a rack off the table, but I see more arguments over more petty issues than that every day in L.A. It's not the Bellagio, but it was OK.
I have never played at the Oaks. its across a bridge and I've heard the games aren't that great. your description is consistent with my experience living in Oakland.
walked into a casino to play hold'em for the first time almost one year ago. I had quickly read Hold'em Poker by DS and I lost $100 at 3-6. came back the next night and won $300. pure luck.
I've pretty much been hooked on hold'em ever since. I have to thank S&M&Z for giving me many of the tools that allowed me to be a modestly winning player after one year.
some random observations:
I don't see too many of the faces that were "regulars" this time last year.
Those things they tell you in the books are true. But you're never convinced until you make the mistake yourself.
I feel fortunate to play poker in the Bay area because I like most of the people I play with. I get the feeling that other locales can be more hostile. again, no first hand experience.
I am extremely lucky to have had access to a really soft game when I first decided to move up in limit. Loose and passive 15-30.
running bad sucks; running bad is a fact of life; winning is awesome. Poker is a super emotional game. Lady Luck says check your ego at the door.
was I running bad or do I suck?
TOP makes alot more sense after a hundred hours of play.
my best day in poker is anytime I go home ahead.
my worst day was the day some guy told me he lost his paycheck and is running bad and how he has 3 kids at home. I believed him. tough shit. what else is there to think?
poker can be bad for your physical health if you're not careful.
Its been a pleasure to meet Tommy Angelo, Matt, Natedogg, Target, Ray Zee, Ed I, Jimmy Wang (all in person) and everyone else in Cyberland.
My game needs some work but I'm really gonna win alot of money this year. I just know it. (knock on wood)
Wow, you only have played for a year. I had assumed you had about five years of experience.
Take that for what it's worth from a guy with 2.5 years of experience and a big red number in the results column.
And you are right, running bad sucks. It really sucks.
Best of luck on winning a bunch this year. I hope you do it. :)
natedogg
both you guys are winning players in the skill department. remember though that in limit holdem in particular when doing poorly i believe its mostly because you are playing far too loose in full handed games.
The Any2card Town (A2CT) Council held another public meeting and many of the A2CT residents were in attendance. Most good politicians try to improve the quality of life for their constituent's. Occasionally a rotten egg does get elected. These self serving politicians are only interested in their own agenda. We have in our Town, a mix of officials who are good and bad. The A2CT Council is probably pretty common when compared to other communities. This meeting dealt with helping our residents improve their over all performance on the playing field. Some residents and Councilmen felt we should put more warning signs on the streets leading to the river. The accident rate in A2CT is dramatic. The overall numbers of injured residents has become alarming. This meeting allowed the residents to make statements before the council voted.
The Mayor of A2CT opened the meeting with a prayer. Dear all mighty poker god please bless our residents with an over whelming number of outs. Let the miracle card appear on the river. Please protect them from all bad beats, and guide us out of danger during our moments on tilt. May our bank rolls always be fat. Amen.
The first resident to speak was Mrs Maniac. I am not a gambler nor a gambler will I ever be, but I am married to a poker Maniac. He refuses to read anything about poker and should I bring the subject up, he becomes very moody. Our life is like a roller coaster, we're up then we're down. My husbands family values are disturbing and he drives any2cards like a Manica. I believe he may have injured some respectable player's from the Valley of Patience, if something isn't done more innocent players may be hurt. I beseech the A2CT Council to require licensing of player's. A player should not be allowed to take a seat behind any two cards, without learning the rules of engagement. Thank you for listening, and please vote yes, for the licencing of poker players.
The Mayor calls for a vote, the elected councilman from Clueless Ave. speaks. Mayor this lady may have a good idea, but unfortunately most of the players in my precinct can't read. The cost to have someone read the rules of engagement to them would be cost prohibitive. Our current rake of 10% to a maximum of five dollars is already a burden to our residents. They will not stand for any increase in taxes, I vote no.
The Councilman from Calling Station Drive, my constituents are too involved in calling to take the time to pass a licencing exam. They are to busy taking cash out of their pockets, so they can make the next call, I vote no.
You knuckle heads! Began the Councilmen from Standard Deviation Ave.. My people would welcome some sanity from some of the Maniac's that live in A2CT. These trailer park Maniac's are a menaces to our community. I vote Yes! After hearing from all the councilmen the no's won and there would be no licencing of the player's behind any two cards.
The Mayor acknowledged a resident from First Street. Mayor and respected Councilmen, I have come before you many times. Yet our problem on First Street is still a shameless example of the bureaucracy that plagues this Town. We have asked repeatedly for a sign at the beginning of First Street. The sign should ask players to check their position before entering First Street. More players are seriously injured because they refuse to look before limping onto First Street. When will this problem be solved.
May I respond to this question, asked the representative from the State gaming commission. The gaming constitution clearly states. All players have the right of free choice to enter any Street leading to the river. They must enter First Street without the help from any outside source. They must not be burden with any requirement that would reduce the speed of their journey to the river. Any warning sign that helps a player make that decision or requires a player to think, is in direct conflict of that free choice.
Mr Mayor the Councilman from Action Blvd. asked to be recognized. I recommend we adjourn this meeting. Some of us on the council still have a bank roll and would like to get to the playing field. I call for a vote to adjourn this meeting. A vote was taken and the aye's won.
SPM,...the job of Mayor isn't easy, everyone seems to have an opinion...
Let me know when the next meeting is Mr. Mayor. I do not feel my constiuency was represented at this particular meeting...
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D) from Sucker/Suckout Street
The GCA sure makes all those people that claim that cheating doesn't matter(Mason), or that internet poker is on the up and up(Sklansky) look ridiculous.I think its about time that organized cheats had the spotlight shine.
i haven't noticed any mention by them about cheating on internet poker. can you tell me exactly what they have said regarding cheating on internet poker? or are you just extrapolating?
Sklansky says that internet poker is on the up and up, but he acknowledges that he was employed at one time by Tony Spilotro. A Chicago Mob brutal killer. Thats kind of like calling Al Capone a nice guy, and an honest man.
What difference would it make to internet poker if Sklansky was employed, at one time, by Tony Spilotro? If Sklansky was employed by, say, Mahatma Ghandi, would this be a guarantee that internet poker is on the up and up? Sklansky's empoyment record is irrelevant in determining whether or not internet poker is on the up and up.
Now if Sklansky, or anyone else, said something about poker or gambling that turned out to be false, if they were discovered to be covering up the truth about a matter, this would effect, in my mind, their credibility about other gambling matters. One should be very careful about making accusations impugning the integrity or veracity of people without firm and convincing evidence. There may or may not be some truth to some of the things GCA has claimed, but the fact that they themselves have admitted that some of the things they have claimed are false (e.g., the hearing device worn by T.F.) casts serious doubt on their integrity.
I don't have my head in the sand. I have no doubt that, wherever high stakes gambling occurs, there is the possibility, maybe even a high probability, that cheating occurs. People who cheat should indeed be caned. But we should deal in facts, not supposition. People's lives and livelihood are at stake.
I'm no english major but I think there's something seriously wrong with their company name.
N/t
David Sklansky never claimed that Internet Poker was necessarily entirely on the up and up, and he most certainly did not claim that no collusion exists in internet poker. Any chance you could get your facts straight before your next post?
Besides, what would you expect to hear from the man who secretly runs Paradise's servers out of his garage? No wonder he's so busy.
well, Sklansky has said that the games must be straight from the house because some people he knows make money. I'm sure that he knew some people making money while he was working for Spilotro, also. The fact remains that since internet poker ownership is basically anonymous, no one but those who do business with them can know if they are straight. GCA has stated that Sklansky stopped working for the mob. I'm not so sure that this is possible.
Actually he once asked the Internet Forum posters what they thought the chances were of Paradise itself cheating, either by: 1) ownership involvement and intent, or 2) employee involvement in cheating.
Afer the poll he wrote that he thought the chance of employee involvement in cheating was considerably higher than the chance of ownership involvement (which he considered to be extremely low because Paradise ownership truly has too much to lose). He also stated that collusion between players surely existed but that he doubted it was both widespread and significantly detrimental at the time because he knew of many substantial winners.
Interestingly, he was of the view that since collusion can potentially be so profitable (if done right, and it is far harder to collude expertly than to merely play expertly), that collusion would probably increase over time and could eventually become a major threat to the honest player. Whether this has happened I would not know, and I personally have hardly played Internet poker this year, so I no longer have a sense for the "feel" of the games.
As for David "working for" the mob, many years have passed since the incident he related where he was backed in that poker game and in Blackjack. It may indeed be that such ties are not easily broken even after many years. But perhaps you've got it a bit backwards now, too, since in some circles today he is currently known as "El Supremo."
Ok, you've convinced me. I bought Sklansky's video, and he seems to have genuine remorse when he talks about his blackjack days. I'll drop it. I'm sure he has had his share of heat in the last 20 years. The FBI certainly would have a file. The odds are probably ovrwhelming that he is probably straight now.
Internet poker is a different story since these sites are outside US jurisdiction. Its a business tha isn't going to go away. I'll quit complaining about it also. You've convinced me, M.
Go Lakers!
I agree, that he is a great coach, possibly the best ever. And before someone on here says something stupid like "he only wins because he had great players," I'll just repeat what Shaq said, "every coach that has ever won a championship has had great players, so anybody who says that, is an idiot."
So you can say therefore that 100 other coaches couldn't have thrown jordan and co on the court with the bulls and shaq and kobe with the lakers and won? He is the greatest because no one else could win with those players?
Actually, I was just saying that every coach that has won a title had great players. But since you brought it up, you basically argued against yourself.
Doug Collins never won a championship with Jordan in the late 80's and the Lakers were sorry before Jackson got there. Whoever (can't remember) coached Shaq + Kobe before Jackson arrived couldn't lead them to a title. So what is your point?
My point is this. Coaching in basketball and hockey is not anywhere near as important as it is made up to be. Out of the big 4 sports, clearly coaching influences the result of football games more than any other.
One of the things that annoyed Jimmy Johnson the most about Jerry Jones was his comment that any of 100 (i think it was 100.. might have been 500) coaches could have won a super bowl with that cowboy team. And he showed it, by hiring Barry Switzer and watching them win in 1996.
Did the Jordan team in the 80s have the maturity and the players around him like the team that won all the rings? Was Kobe's game the same 3 years ago as it is now? Aren't there a few more role players that played a big part in this year's finals series that weren't in LA a few years back? Teams change a lot in a few years.
Phil Jackson has never won anything without the unquestionably most talented team. Yes every championship team has great players, but every championship team does not have the most talent in the league. There is a difference there.
And my question for you is this: Since Phil Jackson is so great and since this forum is mostly used for sports betting ideas, exactly how many points do you think a coach like Phil Jackson is worth in a betting line? Would you give up as much as a half a point to have Phil Jackson as opposed to Larry Brown. I think you'd be crazy to.
..I don't think Shaq and Kobe worked out there problems by themselves. A coach has a lot more responsibilities than most think, and if you have the best players in the league, you probably have the biggest ego's too. Do you think any other coach than Phil, could have kept Rodman in check. Yeah sure, Daly won 2 championships with Rod but that was before Dennis lost his friggin mind.
About the Cowboys example, Switzer is/was a great coach so maybe that is one of the reasons he led them to a championship, but even he could only barely do it once, and it seems funny that none of the other coaches after him have been able to do the same thing.
Furthermore, about your sports betting example, I honestly know nothing about sports betting, im just a sports fan. I haven't bet on sports since I lost on the FSU + Notre Dame game in 93.
A friend of mine had a great betting mantra: Never bet on anything with legs. I have found this to be a great comfort when I'm tempted to bet a "sure" thing in football. Saved me lots 'o bucks.....
Thats one reason why I stay away from sports betting. Its so hard to judge human performance, except for Micheal Jordan, he never let me down, always money.
The other reason I can't bet on sports is because I have an emotional attachment to it, thats always a bad combination. The FSU losses still sting (93 + 01) and I didn't even bet '01.
>>And my question for you is this: Since Phil Jackson is so great and since this forum is mostly used for sports betting ideas, exactly how many points do you think a coach like Phil Jackson is worth in a betting line?<<
Depends on the opposing coach.
>> Would you give up as much as a half a point to have Phil Jackson as opposed to Larry Brown. I think you'd be crazy to. <<
Nope I don’t think it was crazy. Given that Jackson IMO blew game 1 of the playoffs, I think Larry Brown (who I consider to be a great coach) made some mistakes starting with game 2. In fact Larry Brown actually admitted this. Remember that the Lakers won EVERY game in Philadelphia and won the last two by double digit margins covering the spread easily (games the Sixers had to have). Something has to account for this. The line was possibly way off in games 1, 4, and 5 of this series. Take game 5, ok the Lakers made a lucky shot at the end so possibly the line was closer to being right than it appeared still I think it was off. Game 1, I already mentioned that I think Jackson blew the game. In game 4 the Lakers basically had several days off where the coaches could make some major adjustments which obviously they did. Part of the reason that the Lakers “owned” the Sixers in this series was due to the superior coaching of Jackson. I know you’re crying about how bad the Lakers fans are and can’t get over being so wrong about the Spurs and the Sixers but start dealing with it.
The Blues Man played his songs and they fit his mind set for the moment. He played from all the Town's, and even in the Valley. His game was like a traveling minstrel show. Players loved his songs and occasionally had to shake their heads, because they realized they hadn't been really listening. If they had listened to his song, it would have been obvious to them, they should have folded their hand. Other times, they would listen to his song and they knew they would be paid off for listening. Yes sir, the Blues Man love to play cards. When he came into the casino poker room he'd sing to the Floor a song called, (I'm Ready). Once a Floor said to him, "this is your 15th straight day of playing, what's up with that! The Blues Man looked at him and sang, (I Can't Be Satisfied).
The Blues Man had patience SOMETIMES but he also had a very reckless side to his playing style. All a hold'em player had to do was figure out where his mind set was, by the songs he sang. Many of his songs have been song by Muddy Waters. When he sang from the Valley of Patience (VoP) the tunes were tight and aggressive. The VoP Blues songs had titles like, (How Long), (Gee Ain't It Hard To Find Somebody) and (Rollin' Stone). When he was in Any2card Town, he sang, (Still a Fool), (Rollin' and Tumblin), and (Hoochie Coochie Man). When he was in Border Town (BT), his mind set was emotional and he sang songs like, (Standing Around Crying) and (Stormy Monday Blues). He even sang to Lady Luck, while the dealer was putting the cards in the air, he'd sing, (I Want You To Love Me).
The Blues Man had a song for every thing he did in the game. Once he was head's up with a gal he had never played with before. She had just check raised him and the pot was huge. So he thought for a moment and then broke in with the song, (What Is That She Got). When he had a monster hand and raised, if it looked like everyone was going to fold after his raise, he'd break out with, (Baby Please Don't Go).
The Blues Man always had something to sing about. One hand he was on the button and everyone had called, it was one of those family pots as we say. He had rags so he sang, (Long Distance Call), when he won the hand, he broke out with the tune, (Sugar Sweet). You almost always knew when he had pocket queens or a queen on the board helped his hand. Because he would raise and sing, (She Moves Me)! When he was on a rush, he always sang (Walkin' Thru The Park), just to let all the blind stealers know he was going to call.
When the Blues Man beat a maniac on the river he'd sing (Boom, Boom)... a John Lee Hooker song. When the cards were running cold for the Blues Man he'd sing, (Nine Below Zero). When he won for the day he'd sing, (Trouble No More), as he racked up his chips. When he had a losing session, he'd stand up and sing, (Train Fare Blues). Then while he was walking out the casino door you could hear him singing (Feel Like Going Home).
SPM,...have you ever played with a Blues Man, everything you need to know, is in his songs...
Sounds like "There's another mule kicking in your stall."
Mason said; Sounds like "There's another mule kicking in your stall."
Sir, I've been taking asprin for several days. When do you think Francis will stop kicking?
SPM,...I wonder if a loose pasive game would help the pain...
Actually, I think the complete quote is:
"Muddy Waters, there's another mule kicking in your stall."
By the way, does anyone know what Muddy's middle name was?
I have seen quotes from an author named Sumner A. Ingmark used by various writers, including Alan Krigman, in online poker articles as well as magazines, such as Card Player or Poker Digest. I am having great difficulty finding any published text by this author. The Library of Congress yielded no titles for this author, for goodness sake. There must be something somewhere. Any help anyone might be willing to provide to me would be greatly appreciated. I don't even have a title yet.
Thanks ~
I've always heard you can't get a traffic ticket on private property in California, like if you run a stop sign that a shopping mall chooses to put in place. Well if that's true, how can you be given a parking ticket for parking in 'Hadicap Parking' on private property?
Okay, this response is coming with no legal background, but...
A handicapped parking spot is required by law in any parking lot. The government dictates what the number of spots in a particular parking lot should be. So... A handicapped spot is not put up by the decision of a private business, but is enforced by a law stating they must have handicapped access.
All of this being said --
If you received a ticket for parking illegally in a handicapped space, I hope your car was towed as well as ticketed. If this is simply a question, then I hope that I was able to answer it for you.
Matt
So, since it's manditory for a place of business to provide hadicappped parking, I guess it's "almost" as though the hanicapped spots themselves become city property, which "sort of" explains how they are able to come on to private property and write a ticket.(Still smells a little fishy though.)
[BTW, I've never parked in a hanicapped spot, or even considered it. I was just curious how the violation can be enforced on private property.]
Thanks
I'm guessing that your fingers are moving too fast for your keyboard. Slow down; see how easy it is: h a n d i c a p. There, isn't that better ;-) .....
There are other laws that are enforced on private property. Selling alcohol to a minor is an example. State and local laws have provisions that require businesses to provide handicap parking. Those parking spots, by law, are reserved for those displaying permits. Law enforcement- police, sheriff, highway patrol- enforce those laws.
It is true that most Vehicle Code violations are limited to operating a vehicle on a public highway. However, law enforcement in general applies everywhere. I see nothing fishy here.
Am coming to Calgary July 11-18 and want to play poker (holdem) lower limits. What games are going and what limits are popular. Mail me back and perhaps we can meet up sometime at the poker room(s). Dave
The main poker room in Calgary is at the Elbow River Inn. They spread a number of 3-6-12 games and a variety of 10-20 (w/kill) and pot limit games.
I don't live in Calgary but occassionally visit.
My girlfriend and I are meeting my brother and his fiancee in Vegas in less than 3 weeks. This is our first trip and we will be staying there for 7 nights.
I have a few questions if anyone would like to take the time to answer...
1) Where are the best buffets in town?
2) What is the best way to go about getting free or almost free drinks?
3) Where is the best place to go for good poker action? I have played many times in Atlantic City so I am no stranger to mid limit poker (up to 40 80.)
4) What are some fun things to do?
5) Is Lance Burton a show worth seeing?
Anything else you can add that might help us enjoy our trip would be greatly appreciated.
1. Bellagio. Mirage. Monte Carlo.
2. Everyone playing in the casinos gets free drinks, including in the poker room. Just flag down one of the cocktail waitresses and place your order. Don't forget to tip, however.
3. Bellagio and Mirage are the two main rooms in Vegas if you want to play anything but low limit. Orleans also has a nice, big low to mid-limit room, but its off the strip. Bellagio and Mirage poker rooms are also non-smoking, if that matters.
4. The Cirque du Soleil show at the Bellagio - "O" - is amazing. Its really expensive, though ($100 and up per person, if I remember correctly), and you have to make sure that you make reservations far in advance. The roller coaster at New York, New York is a lot of fun.
5. Have never seen him.
RD
The Rio has a great buffet. Let me get this straight...you play $40-$80, but you don't want to shell out for a beer?
Be prepared for heat. The natives tell you it's a dry heat, but it's a hot heat too. A suburb of hell, temperature-wise (and morals-wise too).
"O" at the Bellagio is indeed fantastic. I also liked the Blue Man Group (Blue Man Crew?) at the Luxor.
If you play at Bellagio and want to eat at a buffet, be sure to get a line pass ( I don't know their comp policies, obviously a comp is better) The line passes are given out for the asking at the desk next to the poker cashier. You still pay, but save a long wait in line. The Mirage has a weird comp policy where you line up and get comps once in a while. I have done it, but it seems easier to pay. Particularly if you are in a good game it is strange to get up to get in a line to see if you get a comp that day. Bellagio has 15-30 and 30-60. Mirage has 10-20 and 20-40.
Try a steak at Delmonico in the Venetian rather than too many buffets. Twice the price of the best buffets, but worth it. there is a high-end steak place at the Bellagio too, along with other good restaurants. Bellagio's buffet which you asked about is way better than most. I think it is much better than the Rio's, but a lot of people like the Rio's.
See if there is any boxing when you are in town. Fights in Las Vegas are always fun.
1. Rio, Bellagio and Mirage. Stayed at Paris and wasn't impressed. On Sunday's Bally's Sterling Brunch is great too.
2. Walk into any casino and start playing. Remember to tip.
3. Bellagio, Mirage and Orleans. Bellagio and Mirage are now NON-SMOKING.
4. Check out the bar action at the Hard Rock Casino. The Voodoo Lounge at the Rio is cool. Rumjungle at Mandalay Bay is always fun.
5. Lance Burton? Are you staying at Monte Carlo? I've heard Danny Ganz is much better. O at the Bellagio is always good.
Apparently, Mike Caro, who had some "evidence" turned over to him by GCA, has now turned over the evidence to someone else, who in turn will turn it over to the "proper authorities." The person turning it over to the proper authorities, however, does not know the nature of the evidence, apparently, and thus, one would think, would have a hard time determining who, exactly, these proper authorities are.
Meanwhile, the "discussion" has degenerated into a name-calling contest between Gary Carson (who else?) and Linda Johnson, with arguments about who knows who, where magazines are carried, and grammatical correctness. It is, indeed, a sort of an internet Jerry Springer Show, only much more difficult to follow the train of "thought." It is quite comical, except for the possibility that either A) unsubstantiated accusations might lead to unfairly ruined reputations; and/or B) accusations that turn out to be true will give poker even more of a black eye than the circus has so far.
The only conclusion I have reached is that Mason was wise in excluding Gary Carson's posts from the 2 Plus 2 Forums.
the thing that always amazes me is how many responses Gary gets to his posts. It's obvious that Gary doesn't get offended by any of the nonesense and that he enjoys getting people riled up.
it's kind of like playing poker with one of the rare birds that wants to "get inside your head" and be jerk at the table. Those sorts of people really aren't offensive since its so obvious what they are trying to do.
the other thing is that Gary is really good at being a jerk and most people that get into a spat with him are pretty bad at being a jerk so they end up looking foolish. I agree that 2+2 is better without his vitriol but I'm also surprised at how well the jerkness of Gary continues to thrive.
Andy, did Mason actually exclude Gary Carson from posting here or did Gary decide to stop posting and request that all his previous posts be deleted? I thought it was the latter.
With regard to the RGP mess, I came to the conclusion that many of the regular posters over there cannot play well enough to beat a middle limit game. Since they cannot beat a decent sized game, they camouflage their ineptitude by spending their energies on speculating, philosophizing, and personal attacks as a means of drawing attention to themselves.
I don't know whether Gary or Mason initiated things, but I'm glad he's not here either way. I haven't read any of the poker posts at RGP, I'm too busy being entertained by the cheating threads. . .
Poker veteran's cheating posts where bizzare and vomitous.
What happened was that Steve badger got mad and demanded that all his posts be deleted from the archives. When Carson heard this he then demanded the same. Since to do these deletions created a good deal and probably damaged the archives a little bit, our policy has been not to let either of them post here again.
Man you must really hate Badger aand Carson to delete all their posts just for asking. I mean after all it took a "penis" for you to pull Abdul's. Pull his post on the penis,I mean. Where he said penis...You know what I'm talkin about.
vince
Err, what part of Massachusetts, Vince?
Amesbury. You?
vince
I graduated from the high school of a little town (sixty in the class of '64) seventeen miles southwest of Boston. Medfield borders the Charles River before the water looks like coffee. I'm a 1973 alumnus of UMass-Amherst, but I'm not really a Massachusetts person. Most of my boyhood was in New Jersey, although part of it was in Eastham on the Cape. I still communicate with aging hipsters in the Pioneer Valley. I've lived in seven states long enough to change driver's licenses and have been in Florida twenty years. Massachusetts is a weird state with good people.
.
GCA is the name for the now infamous trio of ex-cheaters. GCA spreading garbled messages of alleged poker leger de main (sorry Tommy, this wannabe snoot couldn't help himself). you can find out more about GCA at RGP.
Stands for, I believe, Gambling Cheating Analysts.
I just got back from a weekend in Phoenix and I played $20-$40 at Casino Arizona in Scottsdale. I played 32 hours and won about $4300. Here is some information on the facility.
They have a 50 table card room divided into a top section of about 10 tables where they spread their "red chip" games which are $10-$20 up to about $75-$150 mixed and stud. The other 40 tables are in the bottom section where the limits are $6-$12 and below. I did not play in the bottom section. According to Mark Preston, the card room manager, they are planning a 25 table expansion this fall.
They seat nine players in the their hold'em games and eight players in their stud games. Despite not having a third man walking rule, they had no problem keeping their games full. Their games are "must move" which means that if there is more than one game at a specific limit, the second game is a "must move" to the main game. They never take the "must move" off so when you get to the main table you are assured a full game for as long as you want to play. $100 bills do not play, only chips. You can eat at the table but they do charge for food. In hold'em, their $10-$20 and $20-$40 game are "kill pot" games. At $10-$20 they play it with a full kill to $20-$40 if the same player wins a second pot in a row and this second pot is larger than $100. In $10-$20 they take $1 out of the small blind for the jackpot and rack another $3 if a flop is taken. In $20-$40 they collect $6 per half-hour from each player and they play it with a half-kill. In $20-$40 if the same player wins two pots in a row and the second pot is more than $200, the game goes to $30-$60.
With regard to the $20-$40 game it is much softer than the games in Vegas. They do have proposition players (referred to as "hosts") who are decent players but there is usually not more than one of them at a table. The game is a loose, passive one with four or five players on the average taking a flop. I was amazed at how many players in these games fail to raise with ace-king or ace-queen preflop. But many of these players will limp in and sometimes even cold-call raises with any two suited cards, any ace, or any two big cards.
They spread $15-$30, $30-$60, and $75-$150 stud but only the $15-$30 and $75-$150 stud games were spread on a regular basis. They spread $10-$20, $20-$40, and $40-$80 hold'em but the latter is not spread on any kind of regular basis. I tried to get a $40-$80 hold'em game going but to no avail. They also occasionally spread a $40-$80 and $75-$150 mixed game. They only charge $6 per half hour per player for all their higher games regardless of the limit.
Overall, the action is great and it is worth checking out.
The 40-80 and 60-120 have been sporadic at best for the last couple of months. I don't know why, but I suspect that a lot of the 40-80 HE players are cooling their heals on Paradise.
JG
Great reporting. Interesting to hear about the non-raising pre-flop with A-K and A-Q. I also see this more and more in L.A. and saw it a lot when I was up north a few weeks back (Oaks Club). I have played there three times within the last year and found the games much softer than the L.A. games, so similar to your experience in AZ.
Thanks for the great report. Good to hear you did so well too.
Great trip report thanks for all the info. I hope you post many more.
Jim, I thought you were going to Tunica? If so how was it?
I went to Tunica the previous weekend. They have a great $20-$40 game also plus the rooms are only $25 per night and you get free buffets any time you want to eat. I am going back to Tunica from August 3-10 when they have their second major tournament. The side action should be great.
Over 3 BB/hr! Wow! Is that kind of result typical for you, or were the games just that juicy? In any case, good show.....
And did you get a chance to talk with Dick in Phoenix? Nice guy.
No, I did not see Dick. He might be playing at Fort McDowell or Gila River.
i played with jim im pretty sure (only played the 20/40 for a few hours, got AA/KK cracked numerous times, the last to the J2 who hit two pair on the turn. flop was something like QJ9).
anyway, board is 456T, 2 hearts, ive got 2 hearts (A7), jim leads into me, i raise, jim calls, river is a non heart, 2 i think, jim checks, i bet, he agonizes for a while and folds.
so i did my part. hey, i cant play all the time.
brad
thanks for the info Jim. ill see if i can get vince to give you a ride in his vw bus as payment. you can always count on me for a reward.
You seem to be an experienced poker player. What is your opinion of a half kill, 20/40, where the half kill is in effect, if a player wins a second pot (back to back), where the pot consists of ONE BET OTHER THAN THE BLINDS(no $200 minimum pot qualifier)?
How does a half or full kill game, benefit a good player, who plays more than 24 hours, per week?
I don't have much experience at all in playing in kill pot games. My impression was that it does not make a great deal of overall difference since it does not come up very frequently. It certainly adds to the confusion factor though. Frequently, the dealer or one of the players would lose the kill button and then someone would ask where the kill button was. Sometimes we would play for a half hour or so without it ever coming up. If you did not have the $200 minimum, then the kill feature would come into play more often. Frankly, I don't like kill games because it rewards loose play and puts too much action in the game. I would rather play for higher stakes. I recommended that instead of playing $20-$40 with a half-kill we simply play $30-$60 or $40-$80 but no one was interested.
"I played $20-$40 at Casino Arizona in Scottsdale. I played 32 hours and won about $4300."
I'm just curious. After posting this, how many requests for a loan have you received?
nt
I bought a VW Bus
I told you that
I had starting problems
I told you that
I had idling problems
You know that
I kinda fixed those problems
You may have known that
I took it through Massachusetss inspection
It failed
You didn't know that
Some lights didn't work
The sterring was loosey goosey
Too Tinted windows are a no no
Windshield washer no go peepee
I fexed those problems well almost
You didn't know that
Windhield washer go peepee now when it feels like it
Today it felt like it
I took the Bus back to the inspection place.
It passed
You glad you know that?
Vince.
P/S It still not running good.
maybe if you look the other way it won't be afraid to go pee-pee.
if the pump motor is done for you just have buy a new (expensive) one. might be able to get one at a junkyard. I've had this problem with other cars and it always turned out that if it went pee-pee sometimes there were air pockets in the urinal tract and the system needed bleeding.
Vince,
Some of that I knew
But there was a lot of that
that I didn't know
I am now glad that I do know
SPM,...moving on now, have a great day...
Road Trip! Let's take it to Costa Rica!
Phat Mack,
"Road Trip! Let's take it to Costa Rica! "
I like the sound of that. But the bus still has bugs. I need to do a valve adjustment but I'm hesitant or maybe just procrastinating. Well I'm off to the back yard to do some more Bus work.
Vince
did you find your 18 year old hippie girl with a guitar yet vince.
p.s. try fumigation to get rid of the bugs.
Ray,
I'm not into 18 year old hippo's. Thank you very much. I fumigated today. No luck I still gotta adjust the valves. Hey if a bear shits on a tree in the woods and no one is around and the tree dies and falls to the gorund will you have a date for the mountain man ho down?
Vince
I'm not into 18 year old hippo's either... but now an 18 year old, free love, hippie is altogether different.
A more important question would be "If a man does something in the woods, and a woman isn't around to see it, is he still wrong?"
Wrong or not he's still a man. Look at Zee, he's in the woods alone all the time. He wants to make sure that if a bear shits in the woods somebody smells it. Now that's a man for you, right or wrong.
vince
How many times have I quit this forum. Let's see there was 1..2..3.4.5. a bunch as you can see. But Andras Nagy a frequent 2 + 2 poster quit poker more times than I can remember. And each time he came back. Except for this last time.
What is it now, 6 maybe 8 months since Andras last posted. I can't remeber his last post but I believe it was a farewell post. Seeing John Feeney's name on a post after such a long of period actually brought Andras to mind. Why did he quit? I think he quit because he couldn't find the right combination that would make him a winner. I believe he quit because poker was getting the best of him.
Of course this is all just speculation on my part. I'm not sure why or if he really did quit poker. I do know why he quit posting here on 2 + 2. I think it's a shame. I liked Andras. Hey if any of you guys see him tell him there is an other topics forum now and we don't talk poker here. Tell him that Vince said hello. Tell him there is a weird guy named of SPM that always has somethin weirdly interesting to say. Tell him he's missed. Tell him...Hello. That is, if you see him.
Vince
Not a light subject, but an important one. Guys, especially those of us past the magic age of 5-0, please get a PSA test annually. I'm not prone to preaching, but a word to the wise.......
Here's a couple of emails I sent out recently....
Subject: "You have some...
"...cancer in your prostate." So spoke my urologist (Dr. Floyd) into my voice mail, leaving me the results of a biopsy conducted two days previous. (After he tried to talk to me at home, I told his office to use my voice mail. He's a good doc.) This message just added to the normal fun and games of attending a meeting in Hooterville (aka Huntsville).
I'll be having radical retropubic prostatectomy surgery (translation: prostate removal through the lower abdomen) on Tuesday, 24 April. The biopsy caught the disease in a very early stage, and the prognosis for a complete recovery is excellent. I'm planning to be back in the office in a couple of weeks.
Putting this situation in the language of my recent mania (hold'em poker), I've been dealt a hand I'd normally not play. But, I'm in the big blind; so, with no raises, I get to see the flop for free. I flop two pair, which is a pretty good hand. Now, I'm definitely going to play, probably raising to knock the other players out of the hand. I'll be glad to win the pot right now; in any case, I'll see the turn and river cards to see if I win the hand.
And I will - win the hand. See/talk to you soon.
Sent 12 June 2001....
When last we spoke, I was playing a hand I'd rather not play. I did flop two pair with it and was awaiting the turn card. Well, I filled up on the turn and took down a pretty good pot.
For those of you not fluent in poker speak: My prostate surgery went as well as could be expected. The lymph nodes were clean and the prostate had margin - clean cells all around the gland, a likely indicator that the cancer had not escaped. I was discharged 2 1/2 days after the surgery and have now been back to work full time for a week (I've been in the office part-time (unofficially) for about a month.) I just came from my urologist's office and a recent PSA test came back with a "unable to be measured" result. This is a fabulous answer; it means that the cancer did not escape the prostate. My doc will monitor my PSA levels for the next ten years. If the tests continue to show "unable to be measured" results, I'll be considered "cured."
Take advantage of the current medical technology. Get a PSA test. You may then be able to play poker for a much longer time. Take care.
Men above the age of 40 should have an annual PSA done yearly along with a digital rectal exam ( the finger up the ole ------)
Bruce
Paul:
This was a great post. Since I'll be reaching the age of 50 a little later this year, I'll be sure to follow your advice. Thanks again for the information.
Mason
Mason:
You are more than welcome. Some additional info. My doc ordered the biopsy due to a large increase in my PSA results (from 2.1 to 3.5) over a year's time. The 3.5 was the largest result of my three previous annual tests. He did not want to see an increase greater than 25%/year at my age (51). I thought he was over-reacting and I checked with my internist. He said Dr. Floyd has a good feel for this kind of thing and he recommended going with the biopsy. So I did, thank the Great Maker.
Bottom line: slope of annual PSA levels is just as important as the absolute levels. Thus, getting "baseline" results is necessary. Hope you get a "noise" level result from your test. Take care.
Paul T.
Paul,
Great post. I've avoided doing the test for a few (over 50) years now, but I believe uyou have convinced me. Thanks.
Vince
I'll be in LV 7/11-8 and will play in the three hi/lo events held during that time. At least one of my victory celebrations will be held at Bruzsio's @ the Rio. Lobster/Crab/Shrimp combo cocktails, best in the world, baby. I also wouldn't mind seeing O or Blue Man Group while there.
I'm easy to spot, Fu Manchu 'stache, blue Oakley slip-on shoes, Snowbird T-shirt, WSOP tracksuit, mountain of chips, Jennifer Connelly lookalike hanging on my shoulder. Say howdy.
I'd be down for a little friendly collusion in Bellagio's $30-60 game; gotta get back at those Canadians who liked playing K9o against AA last time I was there..... :)
Unfortunately, Vince has asked me to convey to Tom McEvoy(master of ceremonies) that he(Vince) will be unable to serve as keynote speaker during the dinner celebrating David Sklansky's appointment(coronation?) as 2002 WSOP tournament director. I'm going to see if Gary Carson is availible.
This dinner will be held Friday 7/13(!) at Bruszio's seafood restaurant in the Rio. All 2+2'ers are of course invited. Admission is free, but you gotta buy yer own booze/grub.
Tom & Jim Brier will likely announce a joint publishing adventure, "Travelin' Man's Hold 'em", and we're hoping that after dinner David & TJ Cloutier will give a seminar on "Championship Craps Shooting", so make sure to be there...
Which one is the best for four years old?
Dreamcast
PlayStation 2
Nintendo 64
Probably wrong question in the wrong place.
.
Yeah, go with the 64. Its cheaper and 4 year olds haven't been influenced by pop media culture, they don't care whats new or hot, they just need to be entertained.
If it was a 13 year old then you would almost be obligated to buy a Playstation 2.
Thanks for info, the way i'm doing they have to wait until they're 13(lucky number).
I was reading a post earlier in the medium stakes forum about a 9/18 hand. My question is why wouldn’t a casino just change the game to 10/20? 9/18 just seams like a ridiculous structure. Either you have to use a large number of chips to bet or the dealer has to give you change every time. What is the SB in this game? $5?
The game has $3 chips and I'm pretty sure it has 2/3 small blind structure. Puts a lot of chips on the table which encourages bigger pots. Instead of betting 2 and 4 $5 chips its 3 or 6 $3 chips. Poker rooms implement a structure like this to increase the drop.
the small blind is one chip.
A three-toed sloth obviously designed that game. They would naturally think in base 3. I being a stupid human, tend to think of things in groups of 5 or 10.
Exactly! I really like 9-18 games, especially Omaha8. 1) 50% more chips in pot vs 10-20 2) People don't really understand the value of a $3 chip.
12-24 played with $3 chips is even better. Add a kill and yum-yum. I have seen many a 12-24 with kill Omaha8 pots with chips stacked the dealers eyes.
Of course, due to unfortunate industrial accident, one may view the world in terms of four and eight.
Then again, the cast of _Deliverance_ may prefer six and twelve.
Ok, gearing up for my first trip.
Can anyone tell me exactly what limits are offered at the Mirage and Bellagio?
How many of each game are typically spread on Sat - Tues nights?
What denomination chips are used for each of these limits?
What is comped?
What kind of games can I expect to find at the various limits? IE are there loose passive 8-16 games? Or are they a rock garden?
Do most of the games go well into the night, even on weeknights?
How long of a wait can I expect to get into a game?
I will be playing on Sat, Sun, Mon, and Tues nights. I will normally show up to play around 6PM or perhaps a bit later. When is the best action - after midnight when everyone is stuck?
Any other info is greatly appreciated.
Husker,
'Don't Try to Call' before you show up; just walk into the cardroom and ask 'What's Going On'? After you get a seat try not to be 'All Tensed Up' or everyone will have a good read on you. Instead, greet everyone and ask the person next to you 'Whatcha Drinkin' in order to appear extra friendly. That way when you have the nuts but act weak, they'll won't know its 'The Biggest Lie' and you can think to yourself 'Your Naive' as they reach for their chips. When you roll over the winner just say 'I Apologize' and shrug your shoulders. The fish will its OK, been a 'Strange Week' here in poker's 'Real World'. Just let 'em know they can 'Turn it Around'.
If you follow the above, you will 'Divide and Conquer' I promise. That way you can think there is 'Something I Learned Today' and you won't go home with a 'Broken Home, Broken Heart', mumbling 'It Makes No Sense At All'.
Good luck.
KJS
Who are the world's greatest war generals in history? Top 5? Possibilities: Napoleon, Hannibal, Khan, Alexander the Great, Belisarius, and many, many more.
General Nathan Bedford Forrest of the Confederate Army, General Eric Von Manstein of the German Army in World War II, Alexander The Great, and General Douglas MacArthur really stand out in my mind.
Patton,Julius Ceasar, Sun Tzu, Saladin,Zhukov
Genghis Khan conquered more land than Napoleon, Caesar, Hannibal, and Alexander put together - and he did it with an average disadvantage of 10 to 1 in manpower. This makes him the greatest who ever lived. Sabutai Bahadur, his Chief of Staff, has to be second because with the exception of Alexander, he is the only major commander in history with an undefeated record in major battles(83-0). Alexander had less than twenty battles and did it with an army with which he had no hand in building (he merely inherited it from his father Philip II). Khan and Sabutai built theirs from scratch.
Belisarius was definitely the greatest bluffer ever. He once made an enemy of 200,000 surrender to his less than 20,000.
MacArthur and Von Manstein were two of the most strategically creative. The former with his leapfrogging technique in the Southwest Pacific during WW2 and the latter with his design of the German's invasion of France, also during WW2.
When it comes to brute force, my vote goes to Caesar. Not much maneuver but lots of blood.
Napoleon and Hannibal were great all around players, excelling in everything from strategy and tactics, down to precise movements on the field operations.
In terms of on the battlefield maneuvering, Stonewall Jackson, Rommel, Patton, and Mao Tse Tung were tough to beat.
But the Great Khan was superior to all because he had the qualities and skills of all of the above. He was perfection.
Chu Teh (I don't know the modern ramanization). Lead the communist Long March and their ultimate defeat of the Japanese and the Nationalists. All the credit was assigned to Mao and Cho En Lai, but it was this reformed opium addict and unreconstructed bon vivant who engineered the victories.
Bedford Forrest, not only for his military acumen, but for continuously pissing off all his supporters and detractors from the minute he took up arms until this day.
From the Civil War, I'd take Robert E. Lee for commanding generals, and Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson for tactics as a corps commander. I'm not very familiar with Genghis Kahn, but Crouching makes him sound like an interesting guy to read about.
Lee was no where near the general that Jackson was. Had Jackson not been accidently killed at Chancellorsville, the entire outcome of the Civil War might have changed. For openers, the disaster at Gettysburg culminating in Pickett's idiotic charge would have never happened. Jackson would not have allowed it to happen since he had tremendous influence over Lee.
Except at Chickamauga you have (Bushrod) Johnson's charge (using Longstreet's troops) a couple of months after Gettysburg. It was almost identical to Pickett's and it shattered the Union line (Rosecranz was caught moving troops around) producing the Union's largest defeat of the war.
"Nowhere near the general Jackson was" is apples and oranges, to my mind. Jackson was an outstanding corps commander. Does that mean he would have made as good a commander in chief as Lee did? To my mind, not necessarily. Over a period of years, Lee, who had to deal with all of the commander in chief issues that Jackson never did, got the better of the Army of the Potomac, which has many more men and vastly more resources. Jackson was outstanding at battle tactics, but he didn't have to worry about a lot of things that Lee excelled it...the coordination of multiple corps, supply issues, political coordination with a megalomaniacal Confederate president, etc.
Okay. Then let Lee handle the political interface with Jefferson Davis and other external aspects but leave the fighting to Jackson. Lee was good but not nearly as great as Jackson.
But Lee recognized that this Jackson had potential, and he did it at a time when virtually everyone else thought Jackson had no talent at all. That decision alone, and the guts to stick with it, are enough to make us remember Lee as great general.
There is an interesting book written many years ago entitled "The Hidden Face of the Civil War". I don't remember who wrote it. The book gives a detailed synopsis of the careers of virtually all of the significant civil war generals and even assigns a rating system. The authors reasoning and arguments are quite compelling. If I am remembering correctly, I believe Forest got five stars (the highest rating) and Jackson got four stars. Lee got three stars. On the Union side, I believe that Thomas was the highest rated general receiving four stars. Grant got a two star rating. You may want to check it out.
My vote goes to Niccolo Machiavelli. Im not sure if he ever commanded a military, but his book "The Prince" is second to none, when it comes to gaining political control.
Arrogant and vain, this son of a Civil War Medal of Honor winner and former Superintendent of West Point had a record in WWII without comparison. After a poor start (his sloth in Manila on the first day of the War cost him his small air forces; his frontal assault on Buna at the start of the New Guinea campaign squandered American lives), he became the WWII general most penurious with the lives of his troops.
MacArthur commanded 179 separate amphibious assaults, most of them not involving USMC troops who were supposed to be our amphibious assault specialists. Overall, in the battles he commanded, seven Japanese died for each American lost. This is dramatically better than Nimitz did in the Central Pacific, although in fairness Nimitz faced heavily fortified strong points, like Tarawa, that could not be bypassed.
MacArthur specialized in bypassing enemy strong points and isolating Japanese troop concentrations. At the end of the war 100,000 of the Emperor's finest combat troops were skinny and ragged at Rabaul, the only Americans they'd seen being the airplanes overhead.
In the Battle for Mindanao, Army troops under MacArthur inflicted 20,000 Japanese casualties at a cost of 800 American lives, a staggering 25:1 ratio.
I do not believe that the conquesting days will ever be back so the best generals will forever be in the past.
Sir Hugh Gough (Irish), HM forces India (1850's). Used to wear the famous white "fighting coat" in battle so his enemies could see him and have a pop at him if they were inclined. In fact a whole battery of Khasla (Punjabi) artillery once aimed at him instead of his troops saving many of his infrantry mens lives.
Rommell (WW2) Germany, using the tactics of Heinz Guderrain's (spelling tut tut) Blitzkreig and had a cunning and daring that will never be seen again. Landed in Africa after a brilliant campaign in France and set about the Allies the very same day!.
Field Marshall Sir Garnet Wolesey HM Forces (1860's), Wellington (another Limey, rule Brittania!), Shogun Tokugawa (1600's) Samurai, Feudal Japan.
Thats my two pence backdoor.
Yorkie
Let us look at the British generals leading the way in the great wars of the twentieth century.
------------------------------------------------------
Haig:
"The battle of the Somme was one of the most bloody of the First World War, more British soldiers had been killed than in any other battle before it. It earned Haig the title 'Butcher of the Somme', after he unnecessarily sent thousands of British troops to their deaths." [http://www.worldwar1.com/biochaig.htm]
Haig squandered lives in fruitless offenses, bringing the Allies to the brink of defeat. English and French casualties were so great that by 1918, when Germany was able to concentrate her Armies on the Western Front, she was deterred from crushing her adversaries only by the insertion of one and a half million fresh US doughboys.
The King knighted Haig.
------------------------------------------------------
Montgomery:
Bernard Montgomery dallied in the taking of Canne after the Normandy invasion. Allied forces (meaning U.S.) to his south finally broke through the hedgerows and began a massive encirclement (or "cauldron") of German troops. Something like a quarter million Germans fell into allied hands, a spectacular victory, but it should have been better. Monty went about claiming credit for this success, stating that it worked just as knew it would. U.S. generals, particularly Patton, were livid. Even Ike was angry. In actual fact, if Montgomery had acted expeditiously the bag would have been significantly bigger, perhaps upwards of 800,000 Nazi defenders. The ones who escaped later counter attacked in the Second Battle of the Ardennes, also called the Battle of the Bulge.
If Montgomery had acted swiftly (as he was foreseen to do as, after all, those were his orders) the Allied army would have captured virtually ALL German troops between them and the German border. Allied troops could have crossed the Rhine in AUGUST (!) and Germany defeated by December or January. The implications of this were enormous: all of Germany, even much of the Polish rump state and all the Northern states of Central Europe would have been occupied by Western troops, the Soviets occupying the southern portion of Central Europe. The entire complexion of the Cold War would have been changed to our favor.
The King knighted Montgomery.
It was, I believe, Field Marshall Ludendorff in the First War who declared the English Army to be "tigers led by donkeys". [Quoting myself from the World's Most Frustrating Generals thread.]
------------------------------------------------------
Historically, of course, there have been magnificent British general of note. But not within several lifetimes.
I have no problem with those two at all. But they had their prior successes too.
The "handicap" the American WW2 Generals had was that they are so superior numerically and particularly industrially that they are prepared to use more lives and equipment to achieve their goals. You have to remember that when Monty was in Germany at the end he was in charge of a multi-national force (Poles, French etc) and he had to be more sparing with his men who had by now been through 5 years of war.
But i get your point........
If you want my vote for an American general, it goes to Red Cloud.
Leonidas of Sparta. 150,000 to 300 and they still held the gates.
Col. David Stirling, unfortunately a Brit but one of the modern gods of special operations.
Sturmbahnfuhrer Otto Skorzeny, a Nazi but one of the most brilliant minds in special operations history.
Lt. Paul R. Longgrear, deputy commander, Special Forces Camp A-101, Lang Vei, RVN.
The brilliant ones don't have to be generals.
The Worlds Best General Thread gave me an idea. What generals are remembered for winning their battles but fighting in such a way that they had to lose the war. There are actually a few of these in history. From the Civil War (which I have read much) comes Confederate General Braxton Bragg. He inflicted the largest defeat ever upon a United States Army. His men liked to say that they would win a battle and then retreat 200 miles.
I don't claim to be an expert, but I've always put Hannibal in this category. All I know of him I've learned from reading Livy, but I've always asked myself what he was doing for all those years in what is now Italy. How long was he there? 12 years? 17 years? Destroying one Roman army after another, but never taking Rome. Then the junior Scipio goes to North Africa, and off he foes to his defeat. Why could he never finish?
I should have read your post before making mine. Our posts are nearly identical.
The reason Hannibal never attacked Rome was because he wanted to keep it entact. He respected its people and government and wanted to keep their loyalty once he had conquered them. He also calculated that Rome would surrender once it got isolated within former Roman provinces (in Italy) that now was either his or at least his allies. It was a judgement call that only seems wrong in hindsight. But in foresight, it was quite brilliant. Hannibal made the judgement that it was the better play and he was wrong.
Scipio's advance on Carthage was brilliant in that as the first one to reach what today is Libya, he was able to secure the better position - close to water and solid ground. He also had the advantage of being the defender. In order to breakeven, the attacker usually needs to have a 3 to 1 strength advantage over the defender. Once Hannibal arrived for the Battle of Cannae, his troops were very tired. And it was made worse by the fact that he wasn't positioned near water.
Now I see. Can you recommend a modern history of Hannibal's campaigns?
Strategy by B.H. Liddell Hart has an excellent strategy analysis of the campaigns of Hannibal, Caesar, Alexander, Napoleon Bonaparte, Belisarius and many others. The best part of the book are the final chapters. In them, Hart - an Englishman who is credited with inventing what the Germans eventually called the "blitzkrieg" (Rommel, Von Manstein, and Guderian extensively studied his theories in the periods between WWI and WWII while the Allied generals, with the exception of MacArthur, didn't care about his ideas) - condenses all of the lessons in all of these campaigns in an easy to understand manner. Regarding books about Hannibal, I remember reading two of them close to 10 years ago. Unfortunately, I cannot remember the authors.
Hannibal won many spectacular battles against Rome in Italy, but ultimately lost the war when Scipio attacked his own home town, Carthage.
Santa Anna is another posibility. He is recognized as a general with a fair amount of military skill. From my reading I remember during the Mexican-American War he took the Mexican Army, marched them north and surprised the American Army at Vera Cruz (did I remember right). The problem was that after the long hard march they weren't in condition to fight and were defeated in battle.
..of course, Powell was a politician more than a general during the Gulf War, and Norm was 'handcuffed' by him. Powell never wanted to go over there, and got Poppy to focus only on "liberating Kuwait", rather than getting rid of Saddam, who is now stronger than ever.
Not much point in just freeing Kuwait(unless we get free oil forever); maybe Powell was right and we could've saved all the money and bloodshed and just negotiated with the winner. Who cares which dictator rules the Middle East, so long as the black gold keeps flowing.
Westy woulda had to have gone to the media with his concerns(or just simply resigned; FWIW I believe that he now says he would've done so); he'da likely lost his pension and been branded a traitor and coward, although he'd be hailed as a hero today.
I guess frustrating is a good synonym for "cowardly, pompous, hypocritical, monomaniacal, bloodsoaked, mass murdering butcher"; an adjective that applies to 99.9% of all politicians, generals, and religious leaders(there's usually not that much difference btwn the three; kinda like being good at hold 'em, stud, and Omaha, I guess).
"Our statesmen deal in blood and lies, 100 million stifled cries, 100 million wasted lives, already gone before.%2
What a moron. It doesn't take a military genius to bomb the desert.
No s***, Sherlock, that's the whole point.
I think we should have totally destroyed their "Republican Guard" so that they would never have any ability to wage war against their neighbors again. Given what they did to Kuwait, we should have stripped them of all military capabilities. We had the perfect opportunity to do so.
You had 3 choices in Iraq the Shiites, Sadam, or the Kurds. The USA preferred Sadam.
...and if the US did destroy Iraq's war waging powers, Iran would end up becoming too strong.
They supported a deserter for President. That is true patriotism.
maybe but who then steps into the vaccuum
What I would have preferred to see, what could have been the absolute best result, would have been the U.N. modifying the mandate to its forces to capture Hussein and his chief lieutenants to stand trial for crimes against humanity AND crimes against the environment (meaning deliberately creating the worlds largest oil spill and those atrocious well-head fires).
The hanging of those sons-of-bitches would have brought cold fear into the hearts of every petty despot and sky rocketed the worth of our most important international instrument for peace and justice.
yes, gue3ss there a lot of us who would like to see him hang. somewhere, I read that the reason they left him in power was that they feared removing him would allow the Sheite sect to take control and consolidate with Iran to form an even worse situation.
This is no petty consideration. We know that the Chinese have peddled them Silk Worm missiles and there is a clandestine market for "red mercury" [code for weapon grade plutonium] out of the former Soviet Union. And I think we can take for granted that these self-righteous, murderous hypocrites (next time you speak to an Iranian, ask what became of the Bahai, the world's most peaceful people) will spare no one their sacred status of martyrdom.
Still, history teaches that the price of courage is always less than that of cowardice (at least I like to believe so). We, meaning the nucleus calling the shots in the U.N. in 1991, should have been dramatically more decisive. Alas, we'll never know...
How about Burnside? Assaulting the well-fortified Marye's Heights at the Battle of Fredericksburg over and over and over was an exercise in stupidity that cost the Union dearly. Didn't know you the CW buff. I'm going back to Gettysburg in August...last year I was there on the anniversary of the battle. Great place to spend some time.
Burnside was just incompetent at that battle. When I said "frustrating" I was thinking more of the general with real military skill who did almost everything right (and sometimes even won the battle) but when it was all had lost the war.
Any general who is interfered with by the politicians would probably make a good candidate for frustrating. MacArthur in Korea is an example.
MacArthur's problem was that he liked to shoot his mouth off to the press and he kept forgetting who he worked for. This is a sure-fire recipe for dismissal at some point.
I agree. Great general, poor partisan politician. Excellent ruler though (post-war Japan). Extremely brilliant and extremely stupid at the same time.
Well its ancient history but how about Phyrrus (from memory he was a 2nd cousin of Alexander the Great), where the term "Phyrric" victory comes from. Phyrrus won two major battles against the Romans yet suffered loses so large that it could hardly be considered a victory. That would frustrate me. I'll have to read up again on the Civil War if you want to discuss that one Mason.
Bernard Montgomery dallied in the taking of Canne after the Normandy invasion. Allied forces (meaning U.S.) to his south finally broke through the hedgerows and began a massive encirclement (or "cauldron") of German troops. Something like a quarter million Germans fell into allied hands, a spectacular victory, but it should have been better. Monty went about claiming credit for this success, stating that it worked just as knew it would. U.S. generals, particularly Patton, were livid. Even Ike was angry. In actual fact, if Montgomery had acted expeditiously the bag would have been significantly bigger, perhaps upwards of 800,000 Nazi defenders. The ones who escaped later counter attacked in the Second Battle of the Ardennes, also called the Battle of the Bulge.
If Montgomery had acted swiftly (as he was foreseen to do as, after all, those were his orders) the Allied army would have captured virtually ALL German troops between them and the German border. Allied troops could have crossed the Rhine in AUGUST(!) and Germany defeated by December or January. The implications of this were enormous: all of Germany, even much of the Polish rump state and all the Northern states of Central Europe would have been occupied by Western troops, the Soviets occupying the southern portion of Central Europe. The entire complexion of the Cold War would have been changed to our favor.
Montgomery was knighted by the King. It was, I believe Field Marshall Ludendorff in the First War who declared the English Army to be "tigers led by donkeys".
McCleelan, he couldn't even decide that he ought to fight
Top Ten Signs you are the Sucker in the Game
10. Players you have never played with or even met already excited to get in the same game with you because of all the things they have heard.
9. Having at least a dozen people go out of their way to offer to loan you money knowing you are good for it but still want you to stick around and play.
8. The whole room says hello when you walk into the room as though you were Norm from the TV series “Cheers”.
7. Players asking the dealer to deal you a hand even when you are not at the table just in case you happen to make it back to the table before it is your turn to act.
6. Having 5 or more players all buy more chips when you sit down knowing the impending impact of action you bring to the game.
5. Players pulling you aside from the table and asking you what you do for a living; and then politely and seriously say they were just inquiring because they just knew it must be quite a lot based on their observation of your losses.
4. Talking with a buddy before the start of a tournament about the different tables you will be at and the structure of the tournament; etc. etc. - and then seconds before the tournament starts for both of you he asks you to put him and his friend on the list for the 15-30 ring game that starts as soon as enough players are eliminated from the tournament – oh by the way - this house has a rule that you cannot get on the ring game list until you are eliminated from the tournament (subtle implication of friends true thoughts here)
3. Players congratulating you on winning more pots this year than anyone they know.
2. Having a player come up and tell you that you are the only player he knows who is capable of continually inducing a check-raise bluff!
1. Walking into your local Card Room at your usual 7:15pm on a Thursday and finding a list with the “Play at Mike D’s Table” as a Feature Game with 9 names on it.
Just some thoughts…
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
MikeD,
Last week, 10-20 game broke up as soon as I stood up. I wonder what this means.
Soh
gg
Re: Top Ten Signs You are the Sucker at the Table
10> You raise and nine people call.
9> You enter a three handed game and in 60 seconds the table is full.
8> Players offer you their credit cards, so you can continue playing.
7> You river the nuts and the dealer still wants to give the pot to someone else.
6> The game is full and the list is long, four players in the game offer you a play over seat.
5> Every time the guy to your left leaves the game. A fight breaks out, because everyone wants the seat to your left.
4> All the Rocks are playing more hands when your in the pot.
3> A salesmen gets a call for a big sale, he cancels the appointment in favor of staying in your game.
2> You turn over your pocket aces pre-flop, so you can at least win the blinds and nine tight players call.
1> The casino marquee says you've entered the poker room.
How about these:
10. Gee don't see you around here much anymore... we miss you
9. There is a fight by three players at the table for the seat avaible immediately to your left...
8. It happens EVERY time there is a seat to your left...
7. You raise and everybody behind you calls... everytime
6. Another player starts to verbaly abuse you after you beat him by calling his three bet with 10 7 off. Another player leans over and wispers in his ear. He shuts up.
5. You beat the same player again with 8 4 off, and he lightly taps the table and says "nice hand sir, well played".
4. Your nickname refers to something a hen laid
3. You have a really bad poker hand named after you ... say like king little suited.
2. You walk into the poker room and a dozen people start dialing on their cell phones. Half an hour later, the list for your game which used to have an open seat, is now 12 players long.
1. Your girlfriend comes to vist you in the card room and some smart ass says "After I'm done taking your chips, I'm gonna take your girl too!!!"....
"9. There is a fight by three players at the table for the seat avaible immediately to your left...
8. It happens EVERY time there is a seat to your left..."
LOL! The corrolary here is that wheneven a seat opens, not just the one on your left, the players on your right want to move. Or when the game is, say, seven handed, the seats on your right are always the open ones. This is actually a viable way to size up who the live ones are in an unfamiliar casino, before even sitting down.
Tommy
.,.,.,.
p.s. It isn’t just the marauder that has your tells… try going to:
www.michaeldstells.com
I figured I would add another that happened to me this evening -
When the nicest sweetest little old lady Grandmother - Judy - to all in the Room type comes over on her way out the door and confirms with you that you are going to be there at kickoff for the 20-40 feature game the next day.
By the way - all in my list have actually happened to me within the last six months.
Oh well some days it just does not pay to get out of bed.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
PS - My next post will be on a topic near and dear to my heart in the category of advanced math... coming soon to a message board near you
1. Walking into your local Card Room at your usual 7:15pm on a Thursday and finding a list with the “Play at Mike D’s Table” as a Feature Game with 9 names on it.
Thursday, 7:15 and you're not there. 7:16, your phone rings: they are offering to send a limo.
P.S. #1 actually happened?
Yes it happend. I was there. I was on the list.
This one happened to me a little while ago.....
I ventured away from my home card room at lovely Hollywood Casino, Aurora, and made the trip to Harrah's East Chicago.
As I was about to sit down in a nice Saturday afternoon 20-40 game, a suburban folk hero pulls me off to the side and says: "You'd better be careful, there's some GOOD players in that game!!!"
WOW!!!
Just another egg
Egg- Then maybe I shouldn't feel so insulted by this...
I was playing in a pretty juicy 10-20 game at Harrah's East Chicago a couple of weeks ago. It was getting late and I was debating whether or not to go. A former dealer (who was playing in the game) started expressing her concerns that if I left it would break the game! This wouldn't have been so bad except that there was a full feeder game behind us!!
So little did I know I was keeping 19 people hanging around. Now can you claim THAT distinction? No wonder I never have problems getting a comp...
Us little Hollywood Aurora fishes should not venture out into the big ol' poker pond.
I know I want you in every game I play in (NOT!)
See ya' round Kevin.
Just another egg
I am going to be in Vegas next week and wanted to visit a couple of strip clubs with my friends. I would like to know which strip clubs are the best. If you could please rate them in order 1,2,3...
Thank You,
Nick G.
Number 1 in my book is the Palamino Club.
1. Little Darlings - All nude, but you gotta bring your own booze. Last time I was there these guys had brought in a pony keg!
2. Crazy Horse Too - Very goodlooking dancers.
FWIW I've heard that the Palomino was a ripoff, but I've never been there.
OLYMPIA GARDENS so I'm told!!!
Can't really tell you which one to go to because I've only been to one in Vegas and I can't remember the name of it but I wanted to warn you about the alcohol policies (in case you didn't know).
About 5 years ago my hockey team went to Vegas, we had about 14 of us. One guy rented limos for us and we told the limo driver to take us to some strip club. We got there and the sign out front said "All you can drink for $20". Needless to say we were all quite excited to hear about this as this seemed like a great deal. We all go in and soon realize they are not allowed to serve alcohol in the place. So in other words it's all you can drink Coke... yippee!. Anyway one of our guys went back to the limo for something and told the limo driver, after having a good chuckle, the limo driver handed our guy a couple of bottles of something and told him to just put them in his jacket. After pouring a few drinks we left the bottle on the table and this bouncer type guy came up to us told me (the bottle was closest to me) "Hey, the rule in here is no VISIBLE alcohol, so next time I come by that bottle better not be VISIBLE." Needles to say it wasn't visible for the rest of the night.
Rather strange rule for "Sin City", I thought the alcohol regulations in Vancouver were strange.
I've been posting here since the first week, and now I finally have something material to say.
Recommended: Avoid: Other ideas: JG
Since there is no 10-20 at Bellagio, it's real easy to avoid...
Asian MP's in Chinatown? You lost me. What's an MP? And does Vegas have a Chinatown?
OT: Is the Crowne open at the Commerce yet?
10-20 = 10-20k byo earpiece.
mp = massage parlor.
nope. looks like it has a ways to go. next big event is in february. I make it -160 to be done by then.
JG
You have a person who is middle aged and can only draw minimum wage as pay and that person is very poor (has <= 0 net worth). Arguably inflation is expected to continue to be 3% compounding for the foreseeable future. Assuming that there is no increase in the minimum wage in the next 5 years, this person will have approximately 86% of their spending power after 5 years. Therefore one dollar of income today is worth more than it will be in 5 years.
I’m certainly no expert on Utility Theory. Most books I have read describe a typical investor has having “declining marginal utility” which means that the magnitude of the loss in Utility is greater for losing $1, than the magnitude of the gain in Utility for gaining $1. From what I have read this is why the investor demands a risk premium for his investments. If the investor has a 50-50 chance of gaining $1 for $1 invested, he demands a payoff of greater than $1 because 50 percent of the time he will lose more utility than he will gain the other 50% of the time if no risk premium existed. Hope I explained that satisfactorily.
Getting back to the poor person. It seems to me that this person actually has “increasing marginal utility” in that the magnitude of the loss in Utility is less for losing $1 than it is for the magnitude of the gain in Utility for gaining $1. Therefore it would be right for this poor person to take propositions that paid even money when the odds were less than even money as long as this person would show a net Utility gain that was >=0. For instance if this poor person played the pass line at the craps table and took odds the house still has an edge but the poor person may not mind they are actually taking a proposition that shows a net gain in Utility. Where have I gone wrong with this line of thought?
If Utility Theory is defined as:
The branch of decision theory concerned with measurement and representation of preferences is called utility theory. Utility theorists focus on accounts of preferences in RATIONAL DECISION MAKING, where an individual's preferences cohere with associated beliefs and actions. Utility refers to the scale on which preference is measured.
And if RATIONAL DECISION MAKING is defined as:
Choosing among alternatives in a way that "properly" accords with the preferences and beliefs of an individual decision maker or those of a group making a joint decision.
Then all that matters is if the person fully understands the ramifcaitons (in this case odds)of their decision. If the individual's preferences cohere with associated beliefs and actions then they are doing the right thing.
Although I am no expert... it appears if a person is rich or poor is inconsequential to the increase or decrease in utility...
Just my thoughts
Just another egg.
My post really was about the validity of "Increasing Marginal Utility" which I probably didn't explain very well. To Dan and David, if your reading this I will respond later tonight to your excellent posts.
"Assuming that there is no increase in the minimum wage in the next 5 years, this person will have approximately 86% of their spending power after 5 years. Therefore one dollar of income today is worth more than it will be in 5 years."
This statement is only true if the guy takes his income today and sticks it under a mattress.
empirical studies do seem to show that really poor people have increasing marginal utility of income and thus are willing to take more chances. The reason for this is because of an almost complete lack of downside risk and not because of a fear of being anted to death by inflation. As Janis J. said "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."
>>empirical studies do seem to show that really poor people have increasing marginal utility of income and thus are willing to take more chances. The reason for this is because of an almost complete lack of downside risk and not because of a fear of being anted to death by inflation. As Janis J. said "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose." <<
This is inline with what I was thinking, there is a complete lack of downside risk.
I think there is only the appearance of no downside risk. There is downside risk, perhaps even greater than for a person with no money. For instance, if a poor person were intelligent, he could save up the extra few dollars he was going to risk at craps and buy a book on poker. He could study and study and eventually scrape enough together to play low limit poker. If he could become proficient enough to beat the easiest 3-6 game for $2 per hour, he would be way ahead after a few years. There are other more appropriate examples. This is because life is not a closed system or zero sum game. With intelligence and effort the smallest amount of money can be turned into something bigger.
However, it is no coincidence that poor people buy more lottery tickets than rich people. It is no coincidence that Bob Stupak knew how to get the lower middle-class gambling market with his promotions and large jackpots. I think this is because of the perception that there is nothing to lose and that the money cannot be made to work for something better. If you find a successful immigrant who started working for less than minimum wage, you can see this is only perception and not reality.
But also see Getting the Best of It where Sklansky talks about the gamblers who have a plan to take $100 to the craps table and either run it into $5000 in a short time or get broke, but only be out $100. I think this is a better example, where the downside risk is much less than the upside, in a utility analysis.
In the interest of civility I'm only going to respond to a couple of points you made.
"If he could become proficient enough to beat the easiest 3-6 game for $2 per hour, he would be way ahead after a few years."
if you earn less than one small bet per hour you need a really big bankroll not to go broke at some point.
"However, it is no coincidence that poor people buy more lottery tickets than rich people. It is no coincidence that Bob Stupak knew how to get the lower middle-class gambling market with his promotions and large jackpots. I think this is because of the perception that there is nothing to lose and that the money cannot be made to work for something better."
This is the "most people are idiots" hypothesis. Just because someone gambles with the worst of it doesn't make them an idiot as there are many reasons to gamble.
I don't know why what I said provoked you so much Boris, but I do appreciate the civility. I read your post below, which I think was good. In that post you point out that you have to look at the value of each dollar if saved or invested and also point out that if there were more value in negative expectation gambling then the rich would be gambling like crazy. I think I am saying something similar here, although perhaps in terms that could offend those who gamble with the worst of it. I do not think that people who gamble with the worst of it are all stupid, although some are. Some are irrational. Others know how much fun they get out of it and weigh it against the cost. That is all fine. And in my post I spoke of the people Sklansky talked about who use a high-risk strategy on purpose because of the utilities. However, in this post we were talking specifically about the poor.
When we talk about the poor specifically, my point may offend social liberals if taken out of context. It is more irrational for a poor person to gamble a few dollars than it is for a rich person to gamble much more money. For instance, a poor person could theoretically take money they would spend on lottery tickets, or cigarettes, or alcohol, or movies, or any other unnecessary item and work to turn the money into more. Their life will be more dramatically hurt by the failure to do so than the damage done to a whale who blows off a few million at baccarat.
Given the direction the thread took, it was clear that we were discussing the belief of a poor person that he had nothing to lose by gambling. I was pointing out that a poor person had quite a lot to lose. My post also gives the poor credit for being able to change their lives through effort and thought. This is in no way offensive. On the other hand, people who do not give the poor such credit deny them the most basic of human ability. This is much more of an insult.
Given the fact I do think people can accomplish things and have the free will to decide how to spend their money, yes, I think poor people who cannot afford to gamble, but gamble anyway in the hopes of hitting a big jackpot, are idiots.
Also, as to theoretical bankroll requirements of 3-6 - my post said there were many other examples. A poor person could save up a bit of money and go to a trade school. Or open a booth selling trinkets at fairs. Or whatever. But at low limits the theoretical bankroll requirements Mason Malmuth has carefully thought out apply less. Particularly in my post which assumed the person would also have a job. (I admit I did not specify that). Such a person could scrape up enough money to play periodically and would win in the long run. This would give them more money than they had working only minimum wage, although sometimes they would have no poker money. See Malmuth's essays about the Adventurer in Gambling Theory. At one point this guy was broke, but because he could play well, he was able to turn a small borrowed stake into a lot of money. And yes, I realize this guy plays really well and can beat a 3-6 game for better than $2 per hour. And it is way better than playing craps.
I wasn't offended. I just disagree conceptually, not politically, with alot of what you had to say. So instead of nitpicking through every little detail I just chose two cuz I didn't want to be too much of a jerk.
so lets talk about this statement:
"Given the fact I do think people can accomplish things and have the free will to decide how to spend their money, yes, I think poor people who cannot afford to gamble, but gamble anyway in the hopes of hitting a big jackpot, are idiots."
lets look at a poor person who, if really frugal, can save $1200/year. I'm not sure a minimum wage earner could save this much. if they invest this $1200 at 10% they will have a whopping $68,000 at the end of 20 years. with this nut they they can then risk it to start a business that might be successful. Most small businesses are failures. There is a good chance the person will bust their butt for 20 years and still end up broke. Are they an idiot for trying to make the big easy score? I don't think so. In fact, I think this person can very much "afford" to gamble. just my opinion.
In the case of your clarifying example, I would probably agree that the poor person should gamble. If the benefit of frugality can be accurately predicted the downside can likewise be compared to the upside of a big score. It would still have to be weighed by each gambler/saver. Perhaps this is why Mr. Haley pointed out that my post agreed with another post below that spoke of the difficulty of real-world predictions.
This leads to one other question - What is the person going to do with the money if a big score is actually hit? The stories of lottery winners who blow their big score are numerous. How does this factor into the utility theory, i.e. an honest assessment of whether the winner will blow the money and how much benefit he gets from the activities/items upon which the money is blown?
I remind you of what you stated in a previous post when mentioning lottery winners blowing their lottery money:
>>My post also gives the poor credit for being able to change their lives through effort and thought. This is in no way offensive. On the other hand, people who do not give the poor such credit deny them the most basic of human ability. This is much more of an insult. <<
Through effort and thought people should figure out how to invest their lottery winnings wisely.
You may find the following link interesting:
http://www.keele.ac.uk/depts/ec/web/wpapers/pdf/9802.pdf
It gets pretty involved with Mathematical analysis. The point is that the concept of increasing marginal utility is a topic that has been discussed a great deal by some very prominent economists.
What you're really stating here IMO is that the concept of "Increasing Marginal Utility" is invalid and giving reasons why this is so. That's fine and your points are well taken and well thought out. Thank you for your input.
I said:
>>What you're really stating here IMO is that the concept of "Increasing Marginal Utility" is invalid and giving reasons why this is so.<<
I amend to:
What you're really stating here IMO is that people who choose Utility Functions that have "Increasing Marginal Utility" for at least some range of values are not acting rationally.
As one who choose to live poor(0 net) for many years, I agree with you and Janis.
I can remember getting into 5 kill(5-10) lo-ball games with my case 100 when there were smaller games avaliable.
I have great memories from those years, plenty of time to fish.
ok, i was deceitful a lil bit. I have two teeth, but ones way in the back and no un can see it. so they just call me one tooth even though in actual factation i have two. thats two for the price of one, darlings. ahuh. as long as they don't end up sleeping in my barn when they lose all their utilities. yep. now maybe them poor people outta play russian roulette with all their utilities at stake. now that is utilizing utility. ahuh wanna horse racing tip? dont bet on 'em. my old horse she doesn't even wanna pull a wheel barrel around anymore as if she could win a flat race at 6 furlongs. not too likely. good ta see ya thinking that there Comet. my horse named annabel, just thought you wanna know it. yep.
Well, two problems:
1) No one knows the future of the economy. Not even Alan Greenspan. You can't guarantee the minimum wage won't increase over the next five years. The poor person can't either. And if he or she wants to plan for five years down the line, there's no way of knowing whether that includes an increase in minimum wage. If you say, "just assume there will be no increase" then we go past reality because in reality no one knows when or if another increase will take place.
2) Even assuming there will be no increase in M.W. and the person's money will be worth less in five years, that's in five years. Playing craps gives you results today. If you end up getting back 99 cents on the dollar for playing craps, then that's even LESS money you have five years down the line.
Here's a link to a discussion that includes increasing marginal utility.
http://www.columbia.edu/~an368/Threshold.htm#Complications
I think that you're position is basically equivalent to High Desert Poker Man's
There are a number of difficult problems with your scenario;
1) assuming constant inflation without an accompanying increase in wages However, overall I'd say that in this situation, poor person is simply screwed and can only choose situations which minimize his losses. In this particular situation, poor person has no chance to ever get to a positive net worth as his earning power is not keeping up with his debt.
Think of an example where you owe me $100 and you earn $50 per day. I charge you 100% interest per day.
You can never catch up. Then I offer you a deal: I will roll a 7 sided die where I take all the odd numbers and you take the even numbers. If I win, your debt doubles. If you win, I wipe your debt clean. You have negative EV here, but the option is equally bad. With my option, you have a chance. Without my option, you have no chance, ASSUMING you can never increase your income.
Should you take the chance? It depends how important getting your net worth to positive is and what the consequences of a negative net worth are.
"1) assuming constant inflation without an accompanying increase in wages"
David, I think the inflation rate is of no interest here and instead we should look at what he can do if he invests his dollars instead of gambling. the inflation rate can then be accounted for by netting it out of his ROI. this same concept can also be applied to interest accruing on debt. its no coincidence that no one ever rushes to pay off student loans.
If there was only inflation and no investment or savings opportunity then anyone, rich or poor, would be spending and gambling like crazy right now.
Hi everybody,
Coupla questions.
What exactly are the limits spread at Bellagio and Mirage?
How many of each of these games are usually spread?
What chip denominations are used for these games?
What time of day is the action usually the best?
Do the games usually go 24 hrs?
What is comped?
Are sun glasses and head phones allowed at the table?
Thanks for any help you can provide.
I figured one of the Vegas locals would answer this, but since no one has...
Mirage: 3-6, 6-12, 10-20, 20-40, 40-80 Bellagio: 4-8, 8-16, 15-30, 30-60, 80-160, higher
At Bellagio, the 4-8 is a white chip (actually blue there) game, the 8-16 is a mixed white-red chip game, the 15-20 is red chip and the 30-60 is a $10-chip game.
Heads phones and sunglasses are allowed, games go 24 hours and you would have table selection 24 hours on most days (at least weekends) through the mid-limits.
"Comps" are comlimentary thigns the casino may give you if they like you and/or you ask politely. You can probably get a buffet comp if you play mid-limit and ask nicely.
God luck,
Paul Talbot
Hey kids!
What is the usual rule for buy-in amounts? Is it at least 25 big bets? Less or More?
Also, is there much of a "play" difference between $1-5 7stud, $5-10 7stud and $10-20 7stud? How about $15-30?
Thanks! Love the site!
In L.A., in hold 'em, it's 10 times the small bet. So, for example, in 20-40, the minimum buy is $200. You're then allowed one short buy and your next buy after the short buy must be a full minimum buy.
In (some anyway) cardrooms that accompany casinos players can buy-in for five big bets ($100 in a $10,$20 game). The occassional liquored-up lout will drop a C note thinking that poker is like blackjack (the table's green and there's cards, right?).
Ten big bets is more common. I've played in private clubs where the minimum is fifteen. There are tactical reasons for buying in for more.
Recently, a player who hardly knows me, was railbirding the 20/40 game, in which, I was playing. As I left the table for a break, he inquired as to whether I would loan him $40.00, "until Saturday". I responded that "I don't do that, never have", and that was the end of it. Later, it occurred to me, that guy has been playing constantly for, at least, three years (that I know of), of nothing above 4/8 limit. He has made occasional forays up to 10/20. To me, that is perpetual low limit hell. It then occurred to me, that, if not for credit cards, "there, I might be". Credit cards kept me going, long enough, for my game to "evened out". I have never borrowed money, from another player.
Many cardrooms throughout the country have one or two guys who are always looking for a stake. Most of these guys have a gambling problem. Their technique is to try and ingratiate themselves with players who seem to have money. They start off by being friendly. As the relationship develops they typically try to borrow a small amount. In many cases they make a point of paying you back promptly. This is a scheme to set you up for an even bigger loan which they will probably not pay back. These guys try to get networked into as many of these kinds of relationships as possible. When they get so heavily in debt they cannot pay all the loans back they simply pick up and leave town.
I have always made it clear to my friends and relatives that I simply never loan money-period. It is especially bad in any kind of gambling context.
ONE or TWO guys!? Wow, where do YOU play? Heh.
the great fishing and incredible beauty(MT.).
In a few hrs when I wade into the river I'll forget all about the 30 min frustrating session in my local chicken shit little game. Heck I probably wont even give a thought to painting my dinky little house even though this is the second year.
Tonight when I strut into the cardroom I'll feel a little better and no matter how frustrating the game I know know the river will be waiting.
Amen to that Ed.
Now that the monsoon season is over, I am being reminded why I put up with the gray and rain here in Seattle. Going fishing on Whidbey Island this weekend, where the gray whales are passing, the crab is fresh and plentiful and the lakes gorgeous. We are blessed with abundant poker action too but its a trade-off when you consider the effects that gentrification and traffic congestion have had on our once quaint burb.
Now if we can just keep the wildfires in check this summer everything will be great.
Good luck on the rivers and at the tables.
KJS
I lived on Whidbey Island for 3 years in the late 60s. I'm sure its changed some. Are you going to fish Pass Lake?
I rented a boat house for $50 a mo on Cornet Bay. Can I turn the clock back?
Started playing poker(5 card stud) in an illicit game in a pool hall in Oak Harbor. I was told they cheated and they did. The guy running the game could stack the deck. I've never been accused of being the sharpest tool in the shed.
Have a great weekend! I loved my time there and Seattle was my favorite city during the 60s.
Spent 3 hrs on the river skunked. Two days ago I did well. I still have a smile on my face.
Maybe but probably choose Lone Lake instead. My uncle lives outside Langley. He'll let me know which has been fishing better lately. I love the setting of Pass but its a damn hard lake to catch fish in. Heard that Lone is a bit easier and not so crowded.
KJS
did you get kicked off the golf team?
x
Someone said at poker table that If you rob a bank you only 3 to 1 underdog.
This seems about right to me. I can't reference anything, but I seem to remember reading once that 25-30% of bank robberies succeed. This is because most of them are of small banks in rural areas.
So I guess the question is how much is staying out of jail for 20 years worth to you and can you rob more than three times that?
There may be some other somewhat insignificant questions, like to you mind shooting someone if you have to, etc, but those are pretty trivial...
Too bad the publishers of that "How to be a hit man" book got sued, we might have a whole "how to" industry related to violent crime. Maybe when Mason and David get sick of poker they could do some research on this.
Paul Talbot
The time a tenth. The money a hundredfold.
when they catch you on the turn, there's not many outs on the river!
_______LUCK_______ ______SKILL_____ tough luck ............ good luck ............ luck of the draw ........... luck of the Irish ........... beginners luck ........... no such luck .......... bad luck ........... pot luck .......... lotsa luck .........
in luck
outta' luck
beginner's luck
dumb luck
luck out
If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all...
.
IMPORTANT. for immediate release. the following message is a joint release from the Internal Revenue Service and the office of the United States Marshal.
on the 25th day of June new regulations concerning usage of form W2G will be delivered to all U>S> based gaming locations. these regulations will cover a number of procedural changes includingof form W2G on amounts of five hundred dollars($500.00) or more, and will focus on the redemption of casino chips.
Also on the 25th day of June, acting under the authority of the Organized Crime Act, activities at the poker tables of various casinos will be investigated thru survey of casino owned "tapes", as well as by other means. Viewing of said tapes will be conducted by I.R.S. agents, deputies of the U.S. Marshal, and by contracted representative . Said representatives will come from respected, autharitative poker participants---you may contact them at G.C.A.
Interesting but it probably won't be very effective but then again maybe it will just open the door for IRS so that they can be more aggressive in pursuing those that they feel owe taxes.
Fake, fake, fake!!! All US Government email addresses end with ".gov" not ".gvt" .........
.
...THIS site????
I noticed it too. However, we will be going to our own dedicated server. Hopefully this work will be completed in early July and then things will be nice and fast, as they should be.
I would like to clear up a couple of things regarding my recent post regarding the poor. The scenario for the poor that I described was intended to be a model (albeit a very crude one) for their economic plight. I was just utilizing Ceritus Paribus (all other things being equal) when I discussed inflation. I can think of many factors that would adversely effect a minimum wage earner’s consumption power over time. Is it really very hard to accept the fact that there are people in our society who are falling behind while being employed for work on a full time basis?
I would like to address a comment made by High Desert Poker Man. Hopefully this will not be taken as a flame because it isn’t intended as such:
“My post also gives the poor credit for being able to change their lives through effort and thought. This is in no way offensive. On the other hand, people who do not give the poor such credit deny them the most basic of human ability. This is much more of an insult.”
The implication in my mind is that there is really no need for anyone to be poor or very few people to be poor because the vast majority of poor people can change their lives and their economic condition simply through effort and thought. The conclusion one has to reach, if this is the case, is that people that remain poor are not putting in enough effort and thought. In other words they are not motivated enough to change their condition. I certainly don’t share this viewpoint. I certainly think there are many poor people who do put in a lot of effort and use their minds to the best of their ability who remain poor in spite of their efforts.
Also I interpreted the response by High Desert Poker Man and Dan Osman to be basically equivalent to stating that a poor person that employed a utility function that had increasing marginal utility, for at least some range of values, was not acting rationally. Hopefully that clears up the confusion regarding that issue.
As far as increasing marginal utility is concerned. I’ve done some research over the past couple of days on this topic and I will continue to do some more. I think at this point that it is fair to say that some people support the view that poor people employing a utility function with increasing marginal utility for at least some range of values are acting rationally. If this is the case perhaps it’s not so hard to understand why there is a higher proportion of people in economically deprived areas that commit crime. Perhaps activities like stealing cars, selling drugs, fencing stolen goods, robbing liquor stores, chop shops, ripping off employers, etc. are quite rational acts given their plight. Perhaps one role of government should be to change the convex portion of poor people’s utility functions to being concave.
A few weeks ago there was a discussion on the Other Gambling Games Forum about the lottery and it’s negative EV. That discussion caused me to do a lot of thinking about the poor. There have been quite a few economic studies done on lotteries and their economic impact, especially on the poor. I have a hypothesis as well regarding lotteries and their economic impact. My work on this is ongoing. I’m fairly certain at this point that playing the lottery is a rational activity for the poor. I’m also fairly certain that there is no economic benefit to society in conducting lotteries. In fact I’m fairly certain that the lottery is an economic detriment to society.
Oh,you Ann Rand you. There is simply no reason for any poker player to eve lose. It is simply that they desire to do so.
Not that i disagree on other points, just want to support your thoughts concerning the lottery.....in today's world, most often the lottery is sponsored by the government---it is a "hidden" tax, and one which falls most heavly on those who can least afford it---if they must use lottery to raise funds, the the very least they should do is to greatly reduce the "rake"!! Jim
Study done by Northwest Policy Center at the University of Washington.
To make a living wage last yr, a single Montanan needed to earn 9.90 an hr and single parent with 2 kids needed 16.24.
Of all job openings, 55% paid less than living wage for single adult, while 82% paid less for living wage for single adult with 2 children.
Lots of hard working Montanans getting no where fast.
6 applicants per every job opening for living wage single. 16 applicants for every job opening family.
I moved here to fish so i've never really cared about wages that much, but a tough place to make a living.
I live in a similar area Ed I. But I think the standard of living is going up as business expands. My area can attract some new business with good quality of life and relatively low taxes. I posted before seeing your post. BTW, I saw an article today that Montana has closed some blue-ribbon water to out of state fishermen. I was going to ask the MT flyfishermen about this, as I live in an adjoining state. I know our non-resident fees are pretty stiff, but we don't close any water.
I've heard some talk but nothing definitive. Sortsighted remedy if its true. montanatu.org may have some info. I hate the crowds. I started fishing out here in the late 70s and lack of fisherman was part of the appeal. While I avoid some rivers its still possible to find uncrowded water.
I don't mind paying non-resident fees. I used to pay 35 for a non-resident Idaho license but I'd fish the Henrey's Fork 20 times and spend a handfull of days at Island Park and Henrey's Lake. What a great deal! I lived 40 min away from the Fork in MT.
I've heard talk about limiting rods on tne Fork. I think I'll blame the movie A River Runs Through It.
Don't worry, your post is in no way a flame and I don't take it as such. I think you are probably correct that there are poor people who do put in a lot of effort and can't succeed. I think there are three possible reasons for this :1. The person does not have much ability, 2. The person has ability but uses it in an endeavor that doesn't reward him financially, or 3. There is an external system which prevents human accomplishment - communism for instance.
Unlike what Roger said, I don't take your post to be along the lines of Ayn Rand's objectivist philosophy. I could be wrong on this, however, because you don't really say what political/philosophical camp you are in. I think to answer that question we have to look at how you would propose to fix the problem of poverty. To sound like Rand, the question at each proposed fix becomes, "At whose expense."
I will reverse the order of my proposed three reasons for poverty, because I think most poverty stems from the third reason. Anytime you have a governmental system Rand would describe as a collectivist or altruistic one, you will have human accomplishment crushed. Whether it is the Soviet system ruled by the communists or the feudal system ruled by the Church and kings who purported to speak for God, or agrarian primitivists/communists like the Khmer Rouge, when human freedom is improperly/immorally taken, poverty results. Our society is relatively free and as such our society is richer overall. This produces wealthier poor people, because even limited capabilities can be rewarded. For instance, the least skilled factory worker at General Motors could not have invented the car, designed the factory, or organized the company. But he can sell his labor for a relatively high price to those who can. If those with the most ability are prevented from being productive, everyone suffers. This is the most simple example of a complex problem. But I don't think its any accident that we live better here than in Great Britain, which is a relatively prosperous country. That is because we have fewer laws , taxes, and social programs, in my opinion.
In a free society, people have the right to do what they want, which sometimes means they are poorer than they might otherwise be. That is reason #2.
Reason #1 is maybe there are poor people who really try, but are poor anyway. This raises the political/philosophical question again. I know there are people out there without much ability. I see them every day and see some pretty tragic consequences of it. The question is what to do about it. As you may have deduced from my other posts, I am in the laissez-faire end of the political spectrum on this one. Not that I approve of poverty, I think it is very bad that there are poor people. But I do not want to be forced by the government to give up my money to help them. I just know that the poorest people here are so far ahead of the poor under the communists or the Czars, or whomever, that relative freedom is better than the welfare state.
Sorry for the long post, but this is a complex question, and I realize we are not going to come to a solution in easily.
By the way, I wish all taxes were as voluntary as the lottery. And I buy the occasional Powerball ticket.
I recommend you take a look at the book "The Invention of Capitalism" by Michael Perelman. The classical political economists, despite their professed dedication to the power of the market and thus laissez faire were in fact strong proponents of the force of government to make capitalism into a reality. Laissez faire was, and is, a fraud. The most successful capitalists have always used governmental help to succeed in their endeavors. And successful capitalism has always been accomopanied by horrible degradation. Poverty was a deliberate requirement of capitalism; people could not be forced to work unless they could no longer provide for themselves and would otherwise starve.
There is also a sense in which "your" money would not be yours except for the services government provides. How much less safe would you money be, for example, were there no police force or no Department of Defense?
Grand schemes to improve the human condition, like Communism, are usually unmitigated disasters (see "Thinking Like a State" by James Scott). But there is a sense in which we live better here than elsewhere not only because of our relative freedom but also because of the contributions of our governments.
You're right, a very complex question. But poverty is not just the result of totalitarian governments.
I agree that governments have used force on behalf of capitalists/ alleged capitalists. But that does not mean it is inherent in the system. I think it is possible for governments to protect rights (one of which is the right to property)without resorting to improper help to businesses. I agree that it has not been tried yet, but our country came the closest. I might check out that book though.
It is in no way improper to delegate citizens' power in the government if it is a free system. A citizen has the right to keep his property, and it is OK to set up a court system backed by government power to enforce (not create) the right.
HDPM,
I think you discount the desire of employers to keep wages low so their take of the pie is high. Hence the huge disparity between wages of the lowest earners in a company and the largest. Numerous studies have shown that many corporations can afford to pay a livable wage and still make a profit and have CEOs that pull down obscene salaries and bonuses. Your reasons are good, but discount the role that employers play in determining wages for the positions that they need filled.
Also regarding #2. You state that "In a free society, people have the right to do what they want, which sometimes means they are poorer than they might otherwise be." I think it is important to note that many of the jobs in this category are extremely important socially. I am thinking primarily of teachers, child care workers and social workers. I think the longer we ask these workers to accept that they are not worthy of more pay the more the future of our country suffers. What will the fallout be if less accomplished, intelligent, able people decide this is what they want and accept the awful pay that accompanies that choice?
KJS
KJS- I don't discount employers' desire to keep wages low. In fact, if I own stock in the company, I demand it. If I work for the company, I have a tough choice. I do not think people have a right to work for a particular company at any wage they deem is appropriate. I do think that people have the right to bargain freely with one another to agree upon a wage. I also think employers have a vested interest in keeping good employees happy, and do so through reasonable wages and benefits. I do admit there are employers who are not as farsighted or, to use the term sometimes used in this thread, rational as we might hope they are. I have found myself in jobs where the pay, benefits, and atmosphere were bad. I had the freedom to quit and move on to something better. I did not have the right to use governmental power to force the employer to pay me more. It was their money and business, not mine. It was my business whether to stay, and their choice as to the overall effects of losing some employees.
As to the second point, it may surprise you to learn I am in a job that is arguably underpaid compared to the potential social usefulness and responsibility involved. I make more than teachers and social workers, but I can also use my skills to make a whole lot more money than I do now. I have given the problem you speak of some thought. That being said, I don't know the answer overall. I think each particular job can be analyzed, and some conclusions reached, but it is no easy task even then. As to my job, I took it for selfish reasons, looking at my motives honestly, not altruistic ones. That does not mean I serve no other interests in the performance of my job, but the good I do (assuming I do any)comes from my own motivation and is because of my moral beliefs. However, there is some tension in my field because of salaries. I am not the only one who sometimes wonders about pay. I do not consider myself a victim though, and recognize the market forces which will always make my earning power in this particular job limited. Others similarly situated do feel screwed over by the "system" though. I will vote with my feet the day the tradeoff is no longer worth enough to me. If quality suffers because I leave (I don't want to sound arrogant - some would certainly argue it might be beneficial or at least use the pulling the hand out of the bucket of water analogy) well then, the system that sets my pay made its choice. And I think the choice is made knowing a degree of quality is given up.
I do see how low pay in some fields can attract very bad people. I am very familiar with the quality of social workers and teachers. Some are of course good, but I think we are paying the price of incompetence now. I also think the problem has been made worse because of the beneficial development of womens' rights to work in fields they choose. I have no scientific analysis on this, but I would bet there is a quantifiable impact on the quality of some jobs previously held disproportionately by women. For instance, fifty years ago, a very smart and competent woman might go into teaching where now she can be a brain surgeon or engineer. This is a good development, because social forces arbitrarily and irrationally limited a woman's choices, thus keeping the wages for some jobs artificially low. Thus, a school district will not get the same quality for their low-paying job that they might have gotten before.
Before I start sounding too liberal though, I don't think governmental involvement is necessarily the way to go. Social workers will always be governmental employees, but schools can be private. Now, I don't advocate the abolition of public schools, but I also don't think federal government spending has helped education or teachers' salaries much. As to social workers, I just don't think people are willing to pay much for a good system. And they can't be forced to, nor should government be in the reeducation business to convince them.
I like the market to determine wages. I have the right to accept or move on. If I have no options then I have to accept whatever is offered.
I've worked low wage jobs most of my life but that was because of the choices I've made. I can't fault anybody else.
I agree with you you that we do not value certain jobs highly enough or compensate them adequately.
I also agree some corporations pay top management too much. These matters may be best addressed by the stockholders.
I hope you had a wonderful time fishing. Post trip report.
"I think at this point that it is fair to say that some people support the view that poor people employing a utility function with increasing marginal utility for at least some range of values are acting rationally."
There is really no scientific way to determine if someone is "acting rationally". In economics, rational agents are a given, a postulate, a basis for the model. Time and time the again the metaphor of Utility Theory has served well in enabling our feeble little minds to understand our complex and confusing environment. Since this utility theory model works really well we just continue along assuming everyone is rational. The really funny thing is that even experiments done on mental patients indicate that lunatics are rational as well. Rational in the sense that they have a hierarchy of preferences (if A>B and B>C, then A>C) and that they prefer more to less of things they consider good. In summary, I'm really skeptical when I hear things like "that group of people is acting irrationally". This is the "people are idiots" hypothesis and its a really weak hypothesis because it doesn't explain a damn thing and its debatable whether or not the hypothesis can be tested. Its really more of a political statement that a scientific observation.
the problem with the lottery is that the very poor buy too many tickets and lose too much of their income. and having lotteries has to be wrong for the world in general but it does have one good redeming feature. it gives those in the ghettos a ray of hope. they know that they can never break out from their unfortunate circumstances. but buy buying a single ticket they have a chance to become another millionaire. this hope sometimes is needed to continue on.
I've got a plan for solving many of this countries problems.
Let's wipe out the SOURCE of those problems!
We should come up with a list of criteria, and then take all of the people that fit those criteria and pile them into ghettos, and make them do forced slave labor until they are unfit to work - and then gas them all and make value added consumer products from their remains. Like candles, book leather, lampshades, etc.
Here are the criteria -
1) Intolerant of others. If you hate homosexuals, minorities, the handicapped, etc, you are just a pain in the ass. Having to listen to you whine and complain about people who have done nothing to you, except in your own mind, is boring to me. The world will be better off without you.
2) You are a member of a milita with a plot to overthrow the government. You don't like this country? Get the hell out! We REALLY don't want assholes like you around - trust me. If you don't like the game take your ball and go home but don't ruin it for the rest of us.
3) Poor white trash who don't work and live off the rest of us. What is wrong with you? Go out and get a job! What's that, you say you are on disability and can't work? But I've seen you help your cousin fix his roof. Why can't your lazy ass get a job? Stop leeching off of me and the other DECENT people in this country.
Now, I realize that there are some poor minorities that don't have jobs, but I don't think we should exterminate OOPS I meant to say 'cleanse ourselves' of them. Let's face it, throughout our history they have all had it pretty tough. We should give them the benefit of the doubt for another couple hundred years or so. But white people have never been discriminated against. There is NO EXCUSE for white trash, except for the fact that they are just plain stupid and/or lazy.
By exterminating all the lazy stupid people, we strengthen the gene pool.
http://www.sincity.com/penn-n-teller/pcc/a-modest-proposal.html
"white people have never been discriminated against."
What about the Jews?
What about Christians in biblical times?
Ask any white supremacist what it means to be white and I assure you he does not include Jews.
White people of christian background have never been systematically distriminated against by the US government or by any major institutions in the US.
There, have I satisfied all the apple polishers out there?
It doesn't matter what they think, only what is scientific fact. And it is a fact that there are only five races.
1. Caucasin (spelling?)
2. Negro
3. Native American/Indian
4. Asian
5. Hispanic
Since Jews don't fall into any other catergory, they have to be considered Caucasin. The term Jew has nothing to do with a persons skin color, it is a term that discribes their religion.
Your wrote: "White people of christian background have never been systematically distriminated against by the US government or by any major institutions in the US."
But historically, they have been discriminated against.
This guy is using sarcasm to make fun of liberals. There is no other explanation for this post. Any other explanation is in fact too terrifying to comtemplate.
natedogg
What'd you spend, a whole 5 minutes of thought on this one? If it took any longer than that to create these brilliant ideas save a body bag for yourself. I'm not sure I want your fried neurons in the gene pool either.
Hello,
I will be in Vegas for a week of fun and poker and I would like to observe some of the local pros and top players in the area.
I was wondering what time of day/night I might expect to observe some named players?
Also I plan to play some 10/20 or 8-16 and 6-12. Which casino, the Mirage or Bellagio would tend to have average players like myself at these limits? My bankroll is not very large and I want to have a decent chance at winning.
Thanks for any advice.
Mike B.
I want to go on record as being very clear on this matter -
I do NOT approve of a lot of the tactics used by our governent when it comes to dealing with 'crime' - whether it be individual policemen, the FBI, or the Department of Justice.
I am horrified by recent Supreme Court rulings that reverse or eliminate a lot of our personal freedom. A lot of these personal rights are spelled out quite clearly in the constitution, and were solidified by rulings in the 60's. They are disappearing now.
It sickens me what qualifies as 'probable cause' today. If I see a cop and run he has probable cause to chase me all over town, tackle me, search me, and drag me off to jail. FOR DOING NOTHING. It doesn't matter if I happen to know that he is a bad cop and I just agreed to give testimony against one of his bad cop friends. IT DOESN'T MATTER.
This is sickening.
Need I point out that in all of these facist, backward decisions, the majority opinion was made up predimonantly of appointees by REPUBLICAN presidents? Expect more of the same with George Bush in office.
If I had a perverse sense of humor, I would laugh when I hear republicans say 'I would never vote for a democrat because they want to take away our personal freedom.' The thing is that the state of this country is far too disturbing for any but the sickest individual to find this funny.
War on drugs.
Giving more power vs. the individual to law enforcement.
Abortion policy.
Will someone let me in on the joke?
The joke is on You because you're so blinded by the left. I used to be! But not now.
Look deeper, the republicans are truly defending your personal freedom not the democrats.
Ok i gave some clear cut examples to supoort my view. Now you do the same.
Or are you being duped by party rhetoric like all the other millions of cattle out there?
LOL!
How can you say that with a straight face? How can you say something like "duped by party rhetoric" when YOU are the one who began by blaming the republicans?
It's amazing how people can be so ignorant of their self and condemn others for doing exactly what they do.
Simply amazing.
natedogg
it is easier to see a speck in others" eyes than the log in your own???
It wasn't said that it's easier to see the speck, it was said that
Ok I am still waiting for some concrete examples. I gave some, can't you?
Ok here you go.
First, I wasn't disagreeing with you about the appalling degradation of civil rights in this country.
However, the partisan blaming is just plain silly and wrong.
War on drugs: The war on drugs escalated more than ever before during the Clinton administration. Clinton more than doubled the spending on the drug war. Mandatory sentencing minimums for drug offenses have been in place throughout both the Reagan/Bush AND Clinton administrations. It was the Clinton Administration that expanded the death penalty to cover approximaly 50 more offenses including many targeting "drug kingpins" to quote. That's right, you can be put to death in this country for selling drugs, thanks to the Democrats. Just like in China.
Giving more power vs. the individual to law enforcement: the Elian Gonzales home invasion, the rise of asset forfeiture and other federal actions during the Clinton administration show that the democrats are not immune to the timeless urge to trample on the rights of the people.
Regarding asset forfeiture, it may be the conservative court approving it but asset forfeiture came into its own during the Clinton years and is generally a local practice of city and state authorities which generally tend to me democratic, especially city authorities. i.e. California
Abortion Policy: As far as I know it's still legal. I'm not sure what you are complaining about.
I'm no republican but I'll let you in on the joke anyway: The joke is that you still think either one of the two parties gives a damn about you or that the men in power give a damn about your rights. Voting by party line is simply a choice of which set of corporate contributors you would like to give tax loopholes to in the future.
I'm still astonished that you can be so blatantly partisan and accuse others of being "blinded by party rhetoric".
natedogg
Sam, I just pissed my pants laughing so much at your response!
Please warn us before you are so funny again!
Thanks,
- roGER
....did you hear about the protestors that got arrested in tampa at a Pres. Bush speech. All they were doing was carring anti-bush signs. If that ain't violating the first amendment I don't know if the first amendment even exists.
In regards to Probable Cause:
If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to worry about. The police are more than welcome to come in my house anytime they want, I have nothing to hide. Heck, I'll make'em coffee while they search.
[I also don't mind the I.R.S. having instant access to "ALL" my monitory transactions. Why would I mind, I have nothing to hide. I'll let the paranoid worry for me.]
My god where do you people come from?
Try this one: "I don't mind if the police can pull me over for any reason whatsoever, and detain me while they search my car simply because I'm black, I have nothing to hide. Search away, I wasn't in a hurry anyway."
How about this: "I don't think it matters if our Fuhrer packs up all the jews into cattle cars and hauls them off to barbed wire enclosures for slave labor. He's got his reasons. Besides, I'm no Jew."
Or this: "HUAC was a great idea from a great man."
Those should sound natural for you I think.
I think, my friend, that if the paranoid didn't worry for people like you, there would be no more people like you.
natedogg
>Fuhrers? Jews? Cattle cars? Slave labor?
Hmmmm, you might want to think about switching to Sanka.
>"..if the paranoid didn't worry for people like you, there would be no more people like you."
Good! You admit that you're paranoid, that's the first step. That leaves only eleven more to go! You can do it!!!
Good Luck
I guess the men who drafted our constitution were paranoid when they incorporated the bill of rights to protect the citizens from an oppressive malicious state. If you call their legitimate concerns paranoia, so be it. I'm proud to be paranoid.
Personally, I'd rather live under a constitution designed by Thomas Jefferson than you. I think that says it all.
natedogg
What a joke.
Depending on what they are looking for, if the police conduct a search in your home they are going to turn it inside out. What if they then decide to search your home every day? At 3AM?
As for stopping you on the street, what if they do it while you are on the way to a job interview? Your kids play?
WAKE UP
"What if they then decide to search your home every day? At 3AM?"
Actually, 3am would be perfect for me since I'm a night owl.
You are on your way home from a big score at the poker game. Since it is late at night, the police are perfectly in their right to stop you and make sure your seat belt is fastened. In the search of your person to ensure their safety, a large amount of cash is found. YOU MUST BE A DRUG DEALER! The cash is seized and you must now hire a lawyer and go to court to prove you are innocent and get your money back. If you fail to do so the cash will be turned over to the state. Regardless, the next time you are pulled over to make sure your license is current, the police will be advised over the radio that they have pulled over a suspected drug dealer. This is the way things currently work now in amerika.
I hope you're being facetious. But it's not funny. Do you really consider the systematic erosion of the individual freedoms within the planet's most pronounced and influential democracy to be of no consequence?
I think you can see from the responses that (almost) everyone with the initiative to reply is at least very concerned.
We are coming up upon judicial appointments, which can be crucial to our direction for the next three decades. We may be in the position that our Constitutional guarantees will be retrieved, or placed so far behind us they'll be gone forever.
And don't belittle those who fear the impact of appointments of ultra right jurists by the Republicans. This is how we got Chief Justice William "innocence is no defense" Rehnquist.
I'm past being concerned. I'm scared.
by the way, we live in a republic. (remember the pledge of allegiance?)
if you think about it, youd probably be more scared.(eg, why were certain politicians 'floating' idea of general election of the president (you know, doing away with electoral college and just going by total numerical votes) ).
brad
Yes, Brad, we are a republic. But because we conduct regular elections based upon universal suffrage we are also a democracy. I use the term in the same manner as Alexis de Tocqueville did in _Democracy in America_. If it makes you feel better, I can call the USA a democratic republic.
well, the whole concept of seperation of powers was eroded (states vs. people) when we went to direct election of US senators.
brad
p.s. only stupid people get angry.
There are ample of both.
.
...but no, you didn't see it. Neither did I. The verb to be should have been singular.
There IS ample of both.
A Lession in Style: quantity or a word equivalent thereof would be a redundancy. Consider it implied. And ampleness is awkward and contains a superfluous syllable.
You seem burdened by a chip upon the shoulder. If there is something you would like to share with me, please feel free to do so. It may prove therapeutic.
.
Still walking around with that chip?
.
Well...at least we know you hate Nazis. I mean, that's something we both agree on. So you couldn't have completely finished that bong water you consumed before writing the post.
You want concrete examples, ok, here we go
Example 1) (or, if you prefer, refutation 1) No, police cannot just randomly go through your house at 3 AM. They must obtain a search warrant. This warrant must be specific to what they are looking for and the approximate size that it is. If they fail to get a search warrant, the search is illegal and can't be used against you. If they're told they can only look in places that hold a 2'x4' box, and they look in your small desk drawer to find a packet of cocaine, that cannot be used against you. And ALL search warrants must be approved by a judge. So the only way you'd get woken up at 3AM for a search is if the judge was woken up at 2:30AM to sign off on the warrant. That better be a damn important search to try something like that.
2) Kyllo v. United States. Decided just last month. Summarization: police cannot use Thermal Imaging Devices to search a house at random. Hell, Scalia and Thomas voted that it was unconstitutional!
3) Enright v Groves, 1977: Police officer arrested a woman who refused to show her driver's license when asked. Woman brought the officer up on charges of false imprisonment and the court AGREED. She received $1500 for her troubles.
I could mention little things like the checks and balances of the system, the first ten amendments to the constitution, or any number of other things, but I think I'll leave those for another time.
1) The courts are now allowing search warrants that are written in very general terms. On a drug search warrant for instance, it will be very specific as to what the cops think is there but will usually contain a catch phrase "and any other illegal substances" tacked on. 2) Let a few more ultra-right justices get on the bench and watch this ruling get reversed before you can blink. 3) 1977? A lot has changed since then. In fact, if you are sitting in a car, minding your own business, not breaking any laws, you are REQUIRED to show ID if asked. You must properly identify yourself to the police or they can hold you until they can identify you.
If you're in your car, yes. If you're not, you don't have to show them anything. The only time you are required to show a Law Enforcement Officer any sort of documentation is if you are participating in activities that are both controlled by governmental licensure and are within that LEO's jurisdiction. If you're walking down the street and a police officer asks you for your ID, you're perfectly within your rights to say, "No."
As for Kyllo vs. US, it's very unlikely that it will be overturned any time soon. The Supreme Court is profoundly opposed to the overturn of their own rulings. Look how long it takes for cases from lower Courts to be heard. In order for Kyllo to be overturned, it has to make it through all of the steps at the Courts leading to the Supreme Court from the agency generating the case. That requires US District and Circuit Courts to look at the case and say, in essence, "Oh bother, the Supreme Court was desperately wrong in Kyllo." Then, and only then, will it be submitted to the Supreme Court. Then it gets fun, the Supreme Court gets to decide if it even agrees to hear the case. The Supreme Court is not required to hear any cases it doesn't want to. It has to have a "significant number" of the seated Justices agree that the case is worth hearing. Whatever a "significant number" may be seems to be a matter of mood and possibly tides.
"If you're in your car, yes. If you're not, you don't have to show them anything. The only time you are required to show a Law Enforcement Officer any sort of documentation is if you are participating in activities that are both controlled by governmental licensure and are within that LEO's jurisdiction. If you're walking down the street and a police officer asks you for your ID, you're perfectly within your rights to say, "No." "
you must live in a nice neighborhood. in some parts of the country police basically have the attitude that 99/100 nothing will happen(when they overstep), and the 1/100 can just be paid off (if it even gets to that).
brad
Actually I live in what may well be the statistically worst neighborhood in Washington State. In addition I live in the city of Tacoma which is in Pierce County. While the Pierce County Sheriff department is a pretty competent and well run organization, the Tacoma PD is badly managed, consistently abusive of the citizens of their jurisdiction and unbelievably badly trained.
The fact remains that we now live in a world where cases of police abuse can become international knowledge in a matter of a very few minutes. The media is readily accessible as is the government at virtually every level. It's quite true that a grievance against the local police department may well meet with no resolution through their official grievance channels. Even so, I'm not at all above taking my case to the State Patrol who has investigative oversight, the Attorney General who has legal jurisdiction, the papers, the television, the radio and the internet.
On those occasions in the past where I've had run-ins with the Tacoma police, it's been exceedingly unpleasant but I've managed to win in the end. As long as an individual is in the right and is willing to fight back with every method and device at their disposal, they can still beat the system when the system goes outside its bounds.
Jeff
"As long as an individual is in the right and is willing to fight back with every method and device at their disposal, they can still beat the system when the system goes outside its bounds. "
right. and about 1/100 people will do so. and this is what the police count on.
how 'bout that seattle riot thing. i heard on the alex jones radio show that theyre were like professional provocateurs or something, which gave the police the excuse to attack the peaceful demonstrators (WTO) . pretty depressing.
brad
The whole Seattle Riot was basically a joke. I'm afraid the good citizens of the City of Seattle just don't know how to riot. In Belgrade when they riot, we have vehicles overturned, buildings burnt and hostages taken. In Seattle, we have people using the light from the television cameras to rip the USA-Today box free from a light post in order to toss it through the window of the Starbucks. The Starbucks that's only about fifty feet from the Cartier jewelers. The Starbucks where they stole a 55 pound bag of unroasted Arabica rather than the $350,000 diamond tiara in the window of the unlit, isoltaed, architecturally secluded Cartier.
Now enter the "Oregon Anarchist Alliance." An alliance of Anarchists organizing to direct, manage and govern a riot in a neighboring state. A governing body for Anarchists. What is wrong with this picture?
The OAA and their offshoots were essentially unimportant in the Seattle, WTO riots. The rioters were simply to selfinterested and involved in their own issues to band together for a really worthwhile riot. (As an aside, the Fat Tuesday riot this year was a vastly superior riot in terms of quality of rioting, lives lost and damage caused.)
The high points of the riot seemed to be limited to the idiots having robbed Starbucks then noticing a Radio Shack. Pull the USA Today box out of Starbuck's window, get the attention of the TV crews, have the lights and cameras shifted to the Radio Shack, pitch the USA-Today box through the window and then use the camera lights (complete with filming cameras, producers and news-heads) to light the rear of their cars so they could pack their illgotten Tandy Corporation goods into the trunks of their cars. The cars which are illuminated from behind. The cars which are illuminated, filmed and broadcast on most of the world networks. The cars which all have license plates on the back where they're illuminated, filmed, etc...
The other high point was when Seattle's own KING-5 News missile, Jim Forman, had his camera film the teargas rising over the roof of a nearby building.Then ordered the camera crew to move to that building. Then broadcast his confusion as to why he was now in a cloud of teargas.
As for the police, you're exactly right. The sad thing about it is, I suspect that the majority of people in the US honestly don't know they don't have to show a cop their ID. They don't know that they can just tell the cops to go away when they come to the door to ask questions. People hear the "Miranda" rights given on TV and in movies all the time but they honestly haven't thought through what the phrase, "the right to remain silent", actually means. A number of my friends and associates in Law Enforcement assure me that fully 75% of the convictions they see are a direct result of the person not simply shutting their mouth. The scarey thing is this seems to hold true even for the false convictions as well.
Jerry was right, "What a long, strange trip it's been." Now let's sit back and hope the next leg of the journey is a bit easier to handle.
Jeff
>What a joke.
Must be an Adam Sandler joke, it's not very funny.
>Depending on what they are looking for, if the police >conduct a search in your home they are going to turn >it inside out. What if they then decide to search >your home every day? At 3AM?
They have to have a warrant that specifies exactly what they're looking for. They have to get a magistrate who's not affilliated with their organization to agree that their affidavit is adequate to issue that warrant. If they can get a judge to issue them a warrant that gives them the authority to, "turn it inside out", they're going to be sorely disappointed when they don't find it. If they can get a judge to issue them a warrant every night, they're going to run out of judges who are willing to issue those warrants. Their bosses are going to get tired of my lawyer's phone calls and requests for reimbursement for the damages caused. They and their bosses are going to get very tired of the calls from the media. They, their bosses, the judges and the judge's bosses are going to get tired of the presence of the investigators from the agency that holds oversight to them.
All in all, they're going to get tired and go away. Since they don't have a valid warrant, they're going to continue to issue invalid warrants as long as they can get them signed. Each and every one of those is going to cost them in terms of publicity, public relations, relations with subordinate agencies, relations with supervisory agencies, relations with agencies with lateral responsibilities. All in all, they're going to go get very tired of the costs of harrassment.
>As for stopping you on the street, what if they do it >while you are on the way to a job interview? Your >kids play?
Have to have Probable Cause to stop me. Have to demonstrate that Probable Cause to me to make it valid. Beyond that they have to have reasonable suspicion I'm immediately involved in a crime that falls under their jurisdiction. If they ask if I'd be willing to stop and ask a few questions, the correct answer is, "Contact me at another time and make an appointment." At that point they can either arrest me or let me go. Unless I've got cuffs on in the next very few seconds, I'm leaving. It's happened before, it'll happen again. It makes them angry. They tend to bluster and make veiled threats as to what they can and will do. Some even make specific threats. It's just like the showdown at the river. They have to put their cards face up on the table to prove they have better cards than I do or they can just muck them and we go on to the next hand. In either case, I don't particularly see any reason to voluntarily let them participate in things they're not allowed to do.
In regards to Probable Cause:
If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to worry about. The police are more than welcome to come in my house anytime they want, I have nothing to hide. Heck, I'll make'em coffee while they search.
I have nothing to hide and the police aren't welcome in my home. Nor are the IRS, DEA, FBI, Fish & Game, Republican Party, Democrat Party, drunks, bums, sociopaths, City Council Members, State and Federal Representatives, State and Federal Senators, Judges, strangers, people I don't like, people I do like but make horrible messes in my home, anyone I or my wife haven't specifically invited in. Anyone other than those invited want in, they can either ask for an invitation or bring a warrant. If they bring a warrant, they can't have my coffee, they can't use my toilet, they can't use my electrical power to search my home. They can come in and look in those places where they might reasonably find whatever is specifically listed on their warrant. When they don't find it, they can expect to receive a bill for anything they damaged or used during their stay in my home.
I have to let someone in with a warrant, I have to let them meet the conditions of that warrant. I don't have to let anyone else in my home. I chose to let those whom I invite in because I enjoy their company or they have what I consider a valid reason to be in my home. FWIW, I regularly have a house full of people who are invited and many of those have standing invitations.
I don't want a plumber in my home unless my pipes need fixing. I don't want an electrician in my home unless I need my wiring worked on. I don't want a maid or a janitor in my home unless my toilet needs cleaning. Just as with anyone else I might employ, I don't want the police in my home unless they have a legitimate reason to be there. FWIW, it's markedly more likely that I'd want a janitor in my home to clean my toilet than I'd want a Law Enforcement Officer in it for any non-warranted reason. It's that pesky, "freedom", thing.
[I also don't mind the I.R.S. having instant access to "ALL" my monitory transactions. Why would I mind, I have nothing to hide. I'll let the paranoid worry for me.]
I don't want the IRS having access to any records at all save for the bare minimum required by law. They don't need more than that, I don't pay them to have any more than that and I don't see any reason for them to use up any more of the money I'm paying them by reading records they're not required by law to have. Same goes for the police. I'm not paying them to be in my home, I'm paying them to be outside of my home protecting their jurisdiction.
I'm intruding, and I know that. You needn't reply, and you know that.
Do you have a professional legal background?
I was an accountant for many years and the only formal legal instruction I had (six credit hours) was in contract and negotiable instrument law. Everything (anything) else I know about the structure of our Common Law heritage, the statutory alteration of it and its judicial interpretation is informal, catch as catch can, based upon my sense of obligation as a citizen and healthy curiosity. For example, I knew that the Supreme Court had decided that the constabulary did NOT have an automatic right to demand proof of identity, and we aren't automatically required to produce it. But I could not for the life of me identify that case as Kyllo vs. US.
Just curious.
Jake
In a distant past, I did a great deal of personal security consultancy. A large part of that in the modern world, is legal security for the client's. Because of that, I had to not only get to know attorney's and judges, but I had to deliberately sit down with them and listen to what they had to say. Fortunately a number of them were willing to teach me how to do real "Legal Research(tm)" rather than just answering my questions by rote.
We live in a very odd system. You are perfectly within your rights to tell the head of the FBI to get bent and get off of your property when he comes a knocking. If he doesn't go, he can be held liable in half a dozen different criminal matters and then the civil on top. With a system that allows that, the same Supreme Court that has ruled the police can't use a thermal imager to see in to your house, have also ruled that those same police can require your 85 year old grandmother to get out of your car and stand in the rain after they've pulled you over for a broken taillight.
I ran across Kyllo because of a former client who's recently installed thermal imaging equipment on his property as an adjunct to the rest of his secuirty gewgaws. Not a bad idea but thermal imaging technology is far from mature and is still fairly easy to circumvent. Fortunately the person in question has a lot more money than anyone could possibly need so he's not going to be hurt by adding more gadgets. Even if they don't do him any good, he's not out more than about 1/1000% of his yearly income. Sigh... it would be really good to be that rich.. Ah well...
Anyway, the short answer is, "No." I don't have any formal legal education or training as a legal professional, but I have received a great deal of security specific training in the applicable areas of statute and case law. And I have to admit, I've got a garbage mind. Even beyond what I specifically needed to vet the attorneys I was recommending to my clients, I found it a moderately fascinating area of study.
When dealing with the police, just remember our former First Lady, "Just Say, 'No.'"
Jeff
just "good-bye & thanks"
Getting ready for my next Las Vegas poker trip and am wondering how the new No Smoking rule at Bellagio and Mirage has affected the action there. Also, can someone tell me what the smoking rules will be at the Orleans Open tournaments.
June is a slow month in general in Las Vegas poker rooms, but there is still plaenty of action, and the no smoking rule seems to have helped the games a little bit. As for the Orleans, I have no idea what they will do.
Might be a little early to ask - but, does anyone know when the World Series '01 final be broadcast, and on which channel (Discovery, Travel)?
how can the Hustler Casino in L.A. stay in business? they have the nicest, most lavish looking casino, but the biggest game they have is 9/18, and they don't have that many people in the lower limits. what's the deal?
Larry has big bucks from all the smut magazines. I think he can absorb it as a tax write-off.
I've never been there but my guess is... What gambler in his right mind goes to a place where the sign outside the building says HUSTLER...
SPM,...play long and prosper...
i woudlnt really say it's lavish although it is kinda cool and they did have a 15-30 game going while i was there friday, and i thought i remember watching a 20-40 as well.
the rake is pretty high on the 9-18 ($4), but it decreases when there are just 7 players to $3 and then to $2 when there's 6 players (which is common). plus there's no small blind there! and the players are LOOOOOSE, it's the new fave place of my friend and i.
They usually have a "yellow" chip game going (15/30, 20/40) most of the time. however the mornings there can be slow. I believe Mr Flint enjoys his $1,500/$3,000 stud game, I saw him and Johnny Chan playing there a week or so ago.
Is there a place in Stat King for expenses? Food, hotel, gas, tolls etc.
To my knowledge, there is no such way to track travel expenses using StatKing.
You could enter it in as part of your monthly nut when determining your bankroll reqirements using the bankroll tool, but I don't think this is what you're looking for.
n/t
The "recent" portions of the "Archives" seem to be missing posts from October 2000 to April 2001 (at least).
What's up with that?
I am in the process of:
1) moving the site to a new, faster server and,
2) breaking the archives up into more managable chunks.
The "missing" archives exist but will be inaccessible until I complete all of this. I thought it would just be a few days, but due to travel it may be a week or more.
I apologize for any inconvenience. If there is any particular archive that you want to have access to please let me know and I will attempt to do that first.
Chuck
Mark I think will wait for all archives to be restored so he will not be posting for some times now because he is top quoter man on internet. He quote, quote, quote like "Mason, you said:", "you suggested:", "then you asserted:", "now you argue:" "but in 1987 you exclaim:", "while at 2:36 a.m., on 14 September, 1994, you announce:" "But in third post in second thread on 5th day of lent at midnight time you most confidently stated:", and other good stuff of this way. He need all those postings to do this! They then help him to make his footnotes wherre he say like, "[1]" and other bigger numbers. (I don't think he ever say "[0]" but I cannot know why, man.) 8^] Someday I am to be top quoter footnoter like Mark. But first I am needing some many months protege time with him. Or maybe not. I am thinking. Do you think this is good idea Mark? (I am very hoping Mark is answering my posting. He loves me you know! !~)
Actually, what Chuck said while true, isn't the whole story. Two weeks ago I gave him instructions to add an extra comma somewhere in the text to every tenth post that is in the archives. We want Mark, as we do with all our posters, to have a feeling of fulfillment when he leaves www.twoplustwo.com.
mason
In my favorite all time movie, "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World" there are a whacky bunch of misfits searching for the big "W." I love that movie. When they finally find the big "W" they dig and dig and come up with a big fat chest that is full of...NOTHING!
When I re-reun for Prez in two-ought-six I expect to win this time by a sizable landslide. My running mate, Hal Leibowitz and I will take this country to levels never before seen by man.
For those of you that voted for the big "W" in 1998 I can only say this: have you finally figured out that his chest is full of nothing! If not, then you get what you pay for. See you all in 2006.
maybe he is the resurrection of sgt. bilko. get it.
In the land of sharp shooters, it's not always a good idea, to wear a bulls eye on your forehead. You may be playing from the Valley of Patience, but what rock do you hide behind? These guys can shoot around corners. Not even your best friend at the table, will tell you to duck. The firing squad sees your in, the Sargent at arms says ready, aim, fire and your dead where you stand. While the winning marksman yells, "I hit a bulls eye!"
Your chips are scattered around the table and you can't figure out why your head hurts. Finally you look down and see a monster hand. You raise, you make all the right moves to the river. Then after the last bet hits the felt you feel faint. Turns out the table hired a big game hunter; his specialty is monster hands. Everyone avoids your eyes, no one wants to look at you. They all fear they may catch what you've got, another bullet in your head.
Your bloody exterior holds on to the hope a miracle will arrive. The ambulance comes on the river giving you the nut straight. You argue with the paramedics, "I got the nut straight." They pay no attention and tell you to calm down as they attach the IV to your arm. Then you notice a man with a smoking gun, "it's called a flush" he tells the dealer. Then as he's stacking his chips, he asks the man to his left. "Does the guy, with bulls eye on his forehead, come here often." If you think you came to the game with an image, better look in the mirror first. A bulls eye on your forehead, may not be the right image.
You convince the paramedics your fine and the dealer throws the cards in the air. Before you can look at your cards in the big blind, some guy pulls his gun fires a raise at you. You fold, hoping you finally dogged a bullet. The flop hits the hand you just released, and it would have won. You bleed a little more but no one notices. You start talking to yourself and nobody pays you any attention. They've all seen players bleed in wars before. They just figure your praying to the poker god, before you take your last breath. The end comes quickly and it's just another mercy killing. After your gone the sharp shooters look around for their next victim, with a bulls eye on his forehead.
SPM,...anyone... want a used bulls eye...
SPM,
Hang in there - today's game was the usual Sunday Party. First 12 hour session for me in over a year. As they say, "it aint no fun when the rabbit has the gun" - but the rabbit does NOT know how to reload - the Almighty SPM does and has proven it time and time again. 3 handed SPM???? :)-
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
I am probably way behind times--does anyone know if the pot limit game there has died, or is it still good? Jim
It's still going at the new Sandia Casino.
Hi everyone,
I'll be in Las Vegas from the 4th to the 8th. I should be playing 10-20 at Mirage or Binions and 15-30 (and maybe 30-60 but probably not) at Bellagio. I'd love to meet any other 2+2ers in town.
Also, could a regular tell me what sort of Fourth of July festivities will be going on? I'm arriving with a couple friends and we're hoping to take in a fireworks show, etc.
Hope to see some of you,
Paul Talbot
I am selling some good poker strategy software. Email me if you are interested.
Thanks, Jason
Have you gotten the word concerning the dangers that lurk on the Streets leading to the river. No longer can you bring a gun to protect your self in the land of poker. Even having a gun wouldn't help, ask the man who had the first dead man's hand in poker. A gun will not help you travel the streets leading to the river. What you need is a free functioning mind. There are so many books, and magazine articles written about the dangers on the streets that lead to the river. Remembering them all can be a challenge. Unfortunately I have not read them all but here is a sampling of some of the things they say we should remember.
The Pre-flop decisions:
Okay put your best poker face on, here come the cards! You don't want to give up too much information about your hand. So don't look at your cards lets wait. What's your current position in the betting line up? When taking a stand location is everything. You don't want to be in the middle of the field without and umbrella, it could start raining bullets. From this position what are your optimum starting requirements. Where's your head today, the Valley of Patience (VoP)? Should your mind set be in Any2card Town, looking at your cards isn't required anyway. Maybe today you are emotionally charged, an playing from Board Town (BT). In BT looking at the your cards is important. The color of the two random cards and how they look together will help you feel what the correct action should be. Watch for tells as the action approaches, stay focused on the action not those two cards in your hand. Sometimes watching the action takes awhile, so don't peek at your cards yet. Some players look at the two cards for a very long time. They must think their reading a novel rather than any two cards. You don't think they are using their peripheral vision to pick up a tell, no their probably working out the math. If your in the VoP I know you have a game plan. Now it's your turn to act do you call, bet or raise? Hold that decision, before taking action look to your left to see if a tell of danger is approaching from the rear. Did you remember to think about the starting requirements of your opponents as they entered with a call or raise from their current position. Do you know how much money is in the pot now? Should someone raise behind you, because they were smart enough not to give up a tell. Do you have a contingent plan? What does their raise mean, also if it's re-raised what is your first line of defense, call, re-raise, or fold. Do you think of these things before the flop? I read some where we should, but then we all don't do what we're told do we?
The Flop:
Don't look at the flop, watch your opponents for a reaction! They might give you a clue concerning the kind of weather approaching your position. This weather report may tell you how much they like or dislike the cards that flopped. Be carful not to be mislead by their physical actions vocal responses, they may have just gotten off the stage. You know that actor suff, acting weak when they are strong and strong when they are weak. Be a Mike Caro acting critic. See if there's an Oscar winning performance getting ready to unfold that might put you in harms way. Now as quickly as you can, relate the flop you see to the possible starting hand requirements you thought they might have played from their current position. Also rewind your memory banks on how they may have played this flop before with one of those hands. Quickly now the action is approaching, oops times up. How does the flop effect your hand, what's the nuts at this moment, and are the nuts likely to change on the turn. If they bet will you call, raise, or re-raise with this flop. What if they check, can you act? Calculate your possible responses to a check, bet, or a bluff? Oh don't forget to look to your left before you decide. You should always look both ways before crossing the Street.
The Turn:
It's called the turn, sometimes what comes around the corner might be a freight train. Do not get married to a hand on the tracks of an approaching train. Some trains start picking up speed on the flop and by the turn, you could be just another bug on the train windshield. Now 80% of the board has arrived, check for clues watch the action, what does there action mean? Has the turn provided you with the reinforcements needed to pursue your final journey to the river? Did the calling station bet, is there a maniac still in, who could have the nuts now! No, not me, one of the other players still in the hand! Is the enemy capable of picking up a draw that might not have been there on the Flop? It's time to narrow the type of hands the enemy may have. Use your deductive reasoning, you'll find it some where in between your ears. It's your turn to act...
The River:
I see your still here, do you think your in the lead or are you caught between a rock and a hard place. Should someone bluff at this pot are you ready to call, raise etc. No worries mate it's show down time. You either won or you lost, deal the next hand please.
SPM,...no wonder the pro's win they think of everything... I'm just wore out, thinking about thinking...
hey, anybody been using the high energy drinks(commonly served with liquor in bars), to stay up and concentrate in poker games...especially with that dopaminergic nicotine rush is now outlawwed so many places???
yes. I love the stuff. helps me concentrate. The main drawback of playing tired is that it tends to make you suspicious and prone to bluffing too often. I seem to play alot better after drinking a red bull. of course since I have a job I have to play tired if I want to play at all. I'm sure the purists and pros will advise against it but that red bull stuff sure works for me.
What's that stuff taste like? Is it a type of soda pop, punch, tea, what?
try it. you'll like it. here kid, first can is free. lol.
seriously though, it tastes like crap.
I've never tried Red Bull, but I have tried the pill Xenedrine. Its sold over the counter at GNC or any health store. Now that pill gives you energy. It has 335 mg of ephedrine, which is a herbal form of speed, from what I hear.
Just a thought.
ephedrine is not an herbal stimulant. but it is a stimulant. I personally would not ingest ephedrine and play poker because its too powerful for me. For me the trick to taking stimulants (usually caffeine) is not to ingest too large of a dose. one cup of coffee is good, 2 does the trick if I didn't get much sleep. 5 cups is just not good becuase my mind starts racing and I can't concentrate. For some reason one can of Red Bull is just about perfect for stimulating a good level of brain activity. someone could probably write a some good posts on how various drugs affect your playing abilities. there was some discussion on RGP a while back about playing poker and smoking dope. don't ask me about that.
It is full of sugar and can be dangerous when (saw this on extratv) mixed with alcohol it.
also ephedrin (sp?) can cause heard attack or stroke when mixed with caffine. several people died from this combination during the Herbal Extacy craze a couple years back. My advice on all this herbal crap is wait on some real science before messing with it. who here remembers thalidomide?
The Keeper of Random Card Selection is a busy fellow. I know you thought the poker god was in charge of the card selection. Well maybe a long time ago when poker was in it's infancy. However, with all the prayers, from poker junkies who are one bet away from the rail, he had to hire extra help. I've seen the handy work of this Keeper of Random Cards. I'd say this guy has one heck of a sense of humor. Take for example the time he gave Loose Call Clarence (LCC), a 72 off in the little blind. Then eight guys limped into the hand before LCC put in his half bet to make it a family pot. Sure enough by the river LCC had won the biggest pot of the night. The Keeper in my humble opinion always manages to give the wrong guy the nuts. There are so many more deserving players, as I'm sure you'll agree.
I read over and over again about how in the long run the cards break even for all of us. Well I doubt the validity of that statement. When I'm on tilt my chips clearly circle the drain and end up somewhere else but never in my pocket. However, tilt players who play on tilt daily, manage to create towering stacks of chips. We know they give them back in the long run, at least that's what they tell us; but that is not the issue before us today. Shouldn't we who try to play from the Valley of Patience get an even break while on tilt? You know equal time in the winners circle for playing on tilt, just like the rest of the screwballs that play any two cards. Are the trailer park junkies the only ones allowed to have the deck hit them in the head. Is stupidity a virtue that must be rewarded with all of our chips on a regular time schedule.
The word random's first definition in the dictionary is, (1: lacking a definite plan, purpose or pattern.) I have reasoned, illogically I assure you, that for the cards to break even there must be a Keeper of Random Cards. How else can it be explained? Someone must keep records! Then when it's time for the winds of success to blow in another direction, you get your brains knocked out and go home talking to yourself. When your on a wild and crazy winning streak life is good and love is in the air. Then without notice it all comes to a crashing halt. Mr Random is clearly lacking a definite plan, purpose or pattern. So who told him you've been winning too much for too long. You don't have an answer do you? The only answer is there is a Keeper of Random Cards, and he's an accountant with a sick sense of humor.
SPM,...play long and prosper...
SPM,
I am glad you have finally admitted in the belief of a keep of two random card. Actually, he is not only a keeper but the POKER GOD of random cards. About 20 months ago he wispered in my ear the secret to winning at holdem. He told me to first admit that I had a problem in playing random cards and that I must learn how to play the random cards better than everyone else. I am still learning how to become a good player and right now am satisfied with how I am doing as a "Not Good" player; but I am happy to have so many experts around me showing me the coveted YellO Brick Road on how to properly play random cards. I am also forever grateful to the GOD of Any Two Random Cards for showing me the light.
Just some thougts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
PS - SPM - keep up the GREAT work - I really do enjoys your posts and look forward with eager anticipation to read them. I believe that I am not in the minority - and there are many others who love your posts even though we do not always respond. Yours is a difficult act to follow my friend and you are truly a big part of the pulse of the Other Topics Section. Thanks again.
nt
1. you move to alaska so you can write AK every time you put your address down.
2.Airline choice critical.....(sorry)
3.you think MM is mason not Marilyn Monroe(not that it matters)
4.you are observed talking to yourself constantly saying.."AA on button, never any good for me WHY"
5.when you are at a japanese steakhouse you say to your date that the layout reminds you of a poker table.
gl
6. You get two black Aces tattooed really big on your arm. With flames.
I did.
KJS
1. Someone says "You're nuts" and you say "No, I'm drawing to the nuts"
2. You refer to this forum as "deuce plus deuce"
3. Someone asks you what happened in the hockey game last night and you respond "They chopped"
4. You change your name to John Smithuth to try to be more like Hellmuth and Malmuth
5. Your standard day is work 9-5, sleep 5-12, poker 12-6.
You win.
ADVANCED MATH TOPIC by Soccer/Sucker Mike D.
Although I do feel this topic has been strategically and intentionally overlooked for far too long by the professional poker writing community to prevent players from truly becoming experts and thus costing other experts money; the only real reason I am making this post is because it was requested of me about 3-4 weeks back by a struggling 5-10 player who saw an expert at the table - one who is much better than I (not that this is hard) – take down a monster pot with hand such as this.
About a week later, I saw another different expert player torture the Tuesday tournament table with a similar hand.
Playing the Square Root Hands
Let us first identify what constitutes a square root. According to Webster, Square root is defined as “a factor of the number that when squared gives the number.” For example, the square root of 9 is 3. The square root of 4 is 2. There are obviously other square roots but none as far as I have come across that are applicable in two card combinations when playing Texas Holdem. In this section, I will deal only with the 24 Sooooooted.
When playing the square root hands, one has to take into account strategic ideas such as position, players entered, chip count, etc. However, there are a few vital concepts that are of significance importance. These concepts can be very profitable if applied correctly.
One major idea deals with the Under the Gun Positional Steal with 24 Sooooooted against a players big blind who has the belief in their heads that they are a good/great player. This is best applied when the player in the big blind is prone to tilt and currently has a lot of chips. If you play tight and conservative, you may be able to get the chips from some bad players but you give up so much by not playing square root hands and passing up the opportunity to isolate this good/great player and outplay them after the flop. Either way, when this hand is turned over for the winner, the TILT FACTOR is huge! The Square Root Hands present a great opportunity to open these players up. There is special value in the 24 diamonds This is most beneficial with a flop of A K 9 with the 9 of diamonds and making the runner runer diamond flush Now to the amateur eye, this play make look suicidal but you are really a big favorite over any hand - especially AK when you flop a monster hidden diamond in the rough draw and then turning it over for the winner of a huge pot. Most will look at you like you are crazy but anyone dealing with advanced math topics such as these should realize that diamonds are the easiest flush to make since there are 13 diamonds. In fact, the best will value raise/bet on the flop, turn, and river knowing the true heads up potential this monster diamond draws has. When you see a another player play the 24 sooooted like this, alarm bells should go off and warn you that there is a square root expert in the game.
Many players see other players turn over what they believe to be garbage hands and they will consider this to be one of them if they are not an expert. Little do they know how powerful the UTG Square Root Steal is. When this player (who thinks they are good)gets outplayed by a player playing a square root hand goes on tilt you will now have the advantage on him/her and can promptly punish and extract maximum + number of bets in future hands; this concept will usually apply to the rest of the table as well.
In my humble opinion, 24 Sooooooted is best played heads up because it focuses a tremendous and mighty wrath at one individual. The rest of the table sees this and now is just waiting for to give you action. If you have a true expert at the table, they will mostly stay out of your way knowing you only play hands that are tough to beat.
There are many other benefits to the 24 Sooooooted hand such as straights, flushes, two pair, three pair, trips, quads, straight flushes (especially against the AK Suited of the same suit) and all have a tremendous amount of profitability.
The true benefit of this hand however is only reaped by those very few fortunate individuals who are Jedi masters in Numerology. Some study for years the occult significance of numbers and still never fully truly understand how to properly play the Square Root Hands in Holdem.
I will leave the area of Numerology to be covered not by merely by anyone but by Just Another Egg. He is a International Grand Master in Numerology and I will allow him to properly address this since I am a mere mortal in this area.
Hopefully this information will provide you with some insight as to how to effectively parlay your square roots hands into many big pots to come. If you are still unsure on how to play the square roots hands; or Poker Gods forbid you are in the same game with another expert player who also knows how to play the square roots hands, the best advice is stay out of his/her way.
All comments are welcome and appreciated.
Just some thoughts…
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
PS – Egg – the egg is in your pot…
Mr. Michael D,
Can I find this at a community college somewhere? I to am a mere mortal in the world of square root cards as well as the world of poker. I'm looking to graduate from "egg beater" to full fledged "egg". I look forward to seeing "the egg master" post his expertise in this area.
Waiting patientally,
Adam "the egg want to be":)
"According to Webster, Square root is defined as “a factor of the number that when squared gives the number.” "
If an ace holds a value of one, does AA equate to a square root hand?
Matt
..whichever king it is that is the "suicide king" has numerical value of 16('suicide' and 'sixteen' each have seven letters), so you can thus safely play K4 of the appropriate suit(clubs?).
Furthermore, the king of diamonds(!) is one-eyed, so it's value is 8. The square root of 8 is ~2.828; thus the best starting hand in Omaha is K28[diamonds]2. The 'missing' 8 from the root represents the eight-or-better you need for low.
I hope a first-time visitor to 2 + 2 stumbles across this as his first thread. Or, of course, her first thread.
You beat me to it, you dog. A-A makes a NIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICE 'square root hand'.
Mike
I think your definitely on to something.I just became aware of this concept while watching all the expert players play this way. But you forgot to mention the three gap hands(4-7,6-9) and some four gap hands especially the J6o. I might add all theses hands when played must be three bet or at least raised or they lose their effectiveness.When going uphill it is very important to find the biggest hill to climb,otherwise, you get no satisfaction.I will be looking forward to your new book regarding square root hands and would like to get an autographed copy. Lar
Chairman,
As the Mayor and a resident of Any2card Town, I want to be the first in our community to congratulate you. Your essay may possibly be a historical break thru in advanced math, for the Texas Hold'em community at large.
The A2CT municipal headquarters telephone has been ring off the hook. Our residence are singing your praises. One resident called weeping with joy and saying you are truly a decent human being for finally telling the truth about the square root hands. I have always believed the professional poker writing community has kept the truth form the masses. I am sure they have kept this a secret for their own greedy personal financial gains. You are a brave and generous man, should you need police protection from outraged professional poker writers. Our police chief has assured me they will protect you around the clock. A squad car has already been dispatched to your home.
An emergency meeting of the A2CT Council was called earlier this evening. The impetus for this meeting was 18,627 residence staging a rally at our municipal headquarters today. They kept chanting SQUARE ROOT, SQUARE ROOT, SQUARE ROOT, and demanding we honor your accomplishment. A vote was unanimously passed making February 29th Square Root Day. Plans are being made for an award ceremony for you. Refreshments will be served, root beer and fried root-knot nematode (it's in the dictionary). We hope you will find time in your busy schedule to attend.
Thanks again Mike, my eyes are full of tears of joy. Our residents have used the, square root hands, countless times over the years and have been ridiculed by the professional poker writers unmercifully. Finally a voice from heaven has given our residents credibility. I must go now, I'm just too emotional at the moment. I look forward to shaking your hand the next time I'm near you Hollywood Casino office in Aurora, IL.
SPM,...play long and prosper...
:-)
Beware playing 69o if the flop comes 8-high, for the square root of 69 is 8-something...
Okay, so if I work this through ... isn't it true that the square root of 1 is 1? So then the only possible holdem starting "square root" hands are ... 2-4, 3-6, and 1-1 ... Yes, I agree ... excellent magical hands. But watch out for that 1-1, it seems to lose more often than you might expect.
Once you've mastered the square root hands, you'll be ready for the cube root hands. 2-8 is almost...mystical. The big controversy again is whether to include AA in this category. C
Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I have just returned from a mountain top in Northbrook Il, where I was studying with the great mystic, psychic, and prognosticator, Gangadodobrain. Since last week we solved the life long riddle of, what is the sound of one hand clapping, this week we attacked a much larger real life problem. And that is…. If a man does something in a forest and a woman isn’t around to see it, is he still wrong? I’m still coming out of my peyote induced coma, so once things clear up a bit, I’ll let you know that answer to that….
But, on to Numerology… just so you know…. Numerology is perhaps the easiest of the occult arts to understand and use. All you need is the birth date and the complete name of an individual to unlock all of the secrets that the numbers hold. It is much easier when evaluating a hand of cards as the complex conversion of letters to numerals does not need to be undertaken. Numerology is the study of numbers, and the occult manner in which they reflect certain aptitudes and character tendencies, as an integral part of the cosmic plan. Each letter has a numeric value (this becomes critical when evaluating hands like AK and AQ, but I’ll get into that later) that provides a related cosmic vibration. The sum of the numbers in your birth date and the sum of value derived from the letters in the name provide an interrelation of vibrations. These numbers show a great deal about character, purpose in life, what motivates, and where talents may lie. Also, the sum of the numbers in a hand of cards, or even more importantly, when you do your goesinta’s does it work out evenly…. In the case of the square root hands it is a perfect fit…. You pick up one of these hands and before you even look at it you have a feeling a… cosmic vibration…
Experts in numerology use the numbers to determine the best time for major moves and activities in life. Numerology is used to decide when to invest, when to marry, when to travel, when to change jobs, or relocate, and when to play a hand in poker. Let me evaluate 2-4 sooooooted. Just so you know… to an advanced numerologist such as myself, the sooooooted doesn’t matter. But it is true that diamonds are the easies flush to make. Just so were straight on this, if cards are soooooted that’s a poker concept, not a numerology concept. So the first thing we do is reduce the multiple numbers to a single digit in the case of 2-4 that becomes 6. If you can’t figure out how I got to 6 you might just as well kill yourself now cause your too stupid to live. Ok, so we reduce it to six which is close to sex which is a very good thing… but I digress… Now if we compare the reduced 2-4 against a hand like AK… using the chart below we can see an A is 1 and a K is a 2. That reduces to 3 (again, time to kill yourself if your lost).
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
A B C D E F G H I
J K L M N O P Q R
S T U V W X Y Z
Now the concept should be very clear, in poker the biggest, best, preflop hands win most of the time. And since 6 is almost twice as big as 3, its clear why 2-4 dominates AK.
Any Questions?
Just my opinion
Just another egg
"24 soooted is best played heads up"
Game Theory disussion belongs on the General Theory Forum. I don't believe Mark Glover or Tom Weideman read this forum (it's beneath them) so highly technical discussion like the "2,4 sooooted" subject would be better served posted where the big brains can see it. But nice post anyway.
vince.
"13 diamonds"! Really?
Vince,
Thanks for the nice post comment. I had a lot of fun writing this one, and I enjoy the feedback.
I did not want to post it anywhere else at risk of upsetting anyone who might be unhappy with it being in the general theory section.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
High Desert Poker Man was right. This year sections of the Big Hole will be off limits to nonresidents on the weekends. Other restrictions to newcomers who use guides along parts of the river all week long. I say ban the guides(only kidding somewhat).
I hate the crowds but consider this shortsighted. Somebodys bound to take this to court. Any restrictions should apply to all.
I'm going to quit posting about the Clark Fork before the hoards discover and descend. Its been hot.
I'm afraid they'll start looking for transplants and I'll be sent back to California.
im afraid they have already found your valley, that happenend when whirling disease was found in the madison river. then they started looking north and found rock creek and the bitterroot and also the kootenay up in libby. maybe we should make you go to california for a year and fish with Boris.
that'd be a hoot. me and Ed stomping through the poison oak and Manzanita looking for the secret fishing hole. between cursing Ed could tell me stories about the low ball daze and why his house isn't painted quite yet.
Thanks for confirming that. I don't take what my local paper prints as the truth, although that particular article was a wire article I think, and seemed accurate. I am a total hacker of a flyfisherman, and have all sorts of water in my home state to try before I head to MT, but I am still a bit disappointed. I will make it there someday on a summer jaunt, and figured on having access to great fishing. I know there is a lot aside from these areas, but the idea behind the restriction is the problem.
I think it will be challenged in the courts, but I don't really know its chance of success. I think the legal precedents relied upon might be the welfare reform cases or the in-state tuition cases which limit a state's ability to restrict travel between states and the establishment of residency. Some restrictions are allowed, i.e. time periods to establish residency if they are not excessive. But then again, this issue is different. The state is not setting restrictions on buying a license, or even prohibiting non-residents from buying a license, but is denying access to public water based on residency. Its kind of weird. But states do have broad power over fish and game issues, so it just might fly.
Of course, I can't imagine it can be done on federal lands. As those of us in the west know, the Easterners have as much or more say in the use of those lands as we do. That troublesome Constitution again, eh?
it does fly because the state is not denying access to the water just to the fish and they belong to the state. all states have different regs for residents and non residents on game taking. no one is going to spend the money to fight it anyway as the court date would be past the drought period anyway. be thankfull that the easterners have a say on federal lands in the west or they would all be totally trashed by now with cows and mining instead of mostly trashed. no loss anyway as the big hole river is lousy fishing most of the time. what state you from hdm?
I'm from Idaho.
You are correct that no one will fight it in all probability. It won't be worth it economically to any out of state fisherman. Only a guide service or a rich guy with nothing better to do would file suit. Then again, a few lawsuits are filed by one of these groups. Or maybe perhaps some other fishing group, but I doubt it. I don't think the lawsuit would be invalidated by the end of the drought though. I don't think the mootness doctrine would cover that, but that's just my hunch. As a practical matter, I don't think anyone would care much anymore.
You make a good point about the state owning the fish, which I agree gives the state broad authority over fish and game issues. But this regulation is a bit odd. I suppose it could be compared to a regulation making it difficult or impossible for a non-resident to get a tag for a particular species, i.e. Idaho moose, but it isn't exactly that because the non resident can get a license and fish that particular river at other times. I don't know and I won't be filing any lawsuit to find out. I think if there is an emergency condition leading to the rule it has a better chance of being upheld. I wasn't aware the rule was due to the drought. If that's the case, it is different from the situation where the locals are just sick of crowded fishing.
Needless to say, where I live federal ownership of lands is controversial. People here run from something to the right of Gale Norton to those who believe the feds are doing a big land grab to steal all our property and give it to the U.N. And I don't think they're too happy that the Rainbow people are going to come to Idaho en masse as they did in Montana a year ago. More fish habitat will be lost if that goes wrong than any saved by the latest roadless initiative. Our congressman has proposed reintroduction of Eastern Timber rattlesnakes to many habitats close to urban areas on the East Coast to get back at the East for wolf and grizzly reintroduction. It gets a few laughs at stump speeches around here, but something tells me it won't pass. You are right that the old ways in the west are on the way out.
"Our congressman has proposed reintroduction of Eastern Timber rattlesnakes to many habitats close to urban areas on the East Coast to get back at the East for wolf and grizzly reintroduction."
FWIW, there are many people out west who supported the reintroduction of wolves. I am not aware of any instances where grizzlies were re-introduced in either Montana or Idaho. Its really something special to live in a place where there is a good chance of seeing a Griz every time you head to the woods. The Griz in Glacier Park have been trained to only eat tourists anyways so always felt safe.
No question a lot of people wanted wolves, but there is a sizeable contingent who advocate the three S's. For those unfamiliar w/ that term it means Shoot, Shovel, and Shut Up. While not advocating breaking any federal laws, most of our elected officials, except for maybe the few Democrats (and I'm not sure of their positions on this) in the legislature are against the federal wolf reintroduction. Grizzly reintroduction was put on hold recently by Gale Norton. Our governor was adamantly opposed to this program, basically saying he didn't want his constituents eaten because of the federal government. Wolves are causing some problems in certain areas, and a lot of people want them out. Actually, I have been a bit surprised how few wolves have turned up missing, even after eating a rancher's livestock and pets. Particularly given the emotional nature of the issue.
The funniest program is the one Ted Turner's son is doing in Montana - trying to train wolves not to eat livestock. He is a better man than I if he can get a shock collar on a wolf or bribe it with doggie treats or whatever you have to do to train a wild wolf. I can't get through to a German Shorthair.
I don't think using negative reinforcement to contol wildlife to be that far fetched.
I also don't think that losses of stock to predators is much different than losses to weather. I'd guess more livestock is lost to weather than to predators.
I consider myself to be a Libertatian, but Idaho's elected officals make me scream.
it drives me nuts as well to see people rally behind the cattle producers. they turn their livestock loose without protection or someone watching and expect nothing is allowed to interfere with them. so lets kill all the wildlife that can cause any financial loss to a cowpoke. and by the way most but not all of these problems occur on public lands that the cow people lease from us for about 20% of what they pay on private lands. and we pay to fence blm land for them and rehabilitate it after they graze it to death and pollute the streams. one of the greatest feelings in the world is to know there are wolves, bears, antelope, coyotes ,prarie dogs, ferrets, etc. running around in the woods and fields. but most of these have been wiped out by the cattle assosciations for their profits(illusionary).
What was really funny along these lines concerned some Idaho state public lands. The grazing permits are bid out by the land board essentially. The land board is made up of 5 elected officials. An environmentalist went in and out bid some cattle or sheep guys. The market at work, right? No, there was a big court/legislative fight to make sure that cattlemen who were outbid could still get the lease for the price of their bid, not the higher one. That was a good old battle.
Hi all,
What is the best way to get from Vegas to the grand canyon?
Is it easier to get to the north or south face from Vegas?
Thanks.
Well, the "easiest" way is to take a helicopter from the strip.
Don't know if that is "best" for you or not.
A great way to go is to take the train from Williams, AZ to the South rim. You'll get an all day tour, a buffet lunch, and there is entertainment on the train (both ways). My wife and I went a couple of years ago and thought it was great. The AAA ofices in the Las Vegas area will have all the information you need to get on board.
I am a very infrequent poster here and try to keep all that i DO post as relevant topics, or interesting scenarios. I do however read the posts daily from work.
This off topic link, is from a news service, and for those of you that find the time, is an AMAZING read. http://www.guerrillanews.com/cocakarma/
For those of you who DO make it to the site, i am interested in opinions/ responses.
Thank you,
-Ray
Doesn't sound like he pitched anything that was nonobvious.
JG
Some guy suggested Coca-Cola market a game featuring their product with retro-cars and MacDonald's tie-ins. Coca-Cola isn't interested in the game, but likes the idea of retro-marketing to emphasize their old established brand name. So Coke puts pictures of old cars on their cans and also reissues old can designs with a picture of a bottle. And this guy ludicrously insists Coca-Cola's old can is his idea and property because he suggested a game with old cars! And then some journalist sees corporate conspiracy and manipulation of the justice system!
Ok I read it. Fascinating, but?
Does Coca Cola link to bottlers really depend on a copywright? I think not.
Maybe a trademark to some extent (not at issue), or certainly contracts. Seems to me millions are not at stake.
Conduct of judge, all not provable. Worse, why base appeal on that. Since no proof is offered, appears to me en blanc move was judge deciding, she can't properly handle appeal, so she calls for all others. For them to rule in favor, would require court to determine that there was merit in allegations, but no proof is offered, so they have no choice, but deny.
Seems to me there are some legal issues with merit, but I am not sure that whole thing is not big financially, and I AM SURE that millions are not at stake. If the copywright for using the countour design expired, no big deal!
I have transferred this forum to the new server which is currently under test. If you notice any anomalies please let me know. If this works well for a while I'll be transfering the rest of them over the next day or so.
Chuck
Today I would like to introduce a new poker award. It will be give nightly to the most deserving player at your table. To qualify for the award a player must receive no less than three votes from any three players in the game. The award will be called, "The Cry Havoc Award"
This awards generic definition will be; one who cries while potentially destroying the financial opportunities of the rest of the table.
You will recognize The Cry Havoc Award recipient by his emotionally charged vocal out bursts and over all obnoxious behavior. These out bursts of emotional distress will happen when one of the Clueless lays a bad beat at his door, while showing any two cards pronounced RAGS and winning the hand. He will be the player shaking his head from side to side, throwing his cards at speeds of ninety miles an hour and explaining to all who will listen, why Mr Clueless is going to lose in the long run.
He will lecture the clueless, the reckless, the maniac, the calling station, and even the little old grandmas who love everyone and wouldn't say an unkind word to a rattle snack. His attacks will lash out at anyone who beats him, even with a group one hand saying something like, "your very lucky, I had 26 outs." Woo is he who should address him with a request to ease up on his comments. He knows everything, been everywhere and knows everyone. He see's everyone's mistakes and can justify any hand he wins with.
An egotistical calculating mathematician with statistics he can pull out of thin air like a lizard catching flies. His tongue is long on advice, short on manners and wise beyond reason. The Cry Havoc Award recipient has more bad beat stories and knows more poker idiots, than you will ever see in a life time of playing poker. He is a joy to beat, and away from the game may very well be one of nicest guys you have ever met.
SPM,...keep me posted on all the winners of the "Cry Havoc Award"...
I hate it when someone costs me $$ by giving edjamucation lessons at the table, but this was really funny. A good player who was getting pounded all night, just got another ATROCIOUS beat put on him. Yet, he was trying to be nice to the bad player. But the bad player insisted on defending himself. Finally, the good player said, "That's all right. Eventually my luck'll change, but you're dumb play won't!" I guess ya had to be there.... I had to get up and walk away because I couldn't keep a straight face.
i vote for buck
:-)
The CIA is going to take more negative heat in the press by the capture of Montesinos. The Peruvians are now claiming that they will expose the fascist techniques employed by the CIA to support Fujimori.
Well, Fujimori defeated the communists.He only permitted drugs to be run that were controlled by capitalists. He only encouraged investment in gaming by capitalists. Don't believe anything you hear that comes out of the new Peruvian government.
s
Kissinger is spelled with a an i, not an e. JB sounds like a typical mercenary. Nevertheless, his arguments are not without some validity.
And we're supposed to believe anything coming out of the CIA?
The Any2card Town news paper reported this morning that the Chairman, Mr Shocker Sucker Mike's research on the square root hands, is being considered for the Noble Prize in advanced mathematics. Should the Chairman win this prestigious award, it could change the whole concept of poker; bring poker to a new level of intellectual understanding.
The article also said a Congressional Committee in Washington D.C. will be investigating every professional poker writer in the U.S.A.. Thousands of telegrams from out raged poker players wanting to know why this information has take so long to appear in print. This cover up of the square root hands, may be bigger than Watergate, stated a well know Senator.
SPM,...I personally would like to recommend that 2+2 honor the Chairman with an award for the best post of the year...
SPM
I second that.His post is the best post i have ever seen and has introduced a new concept that only the best players were utilizing in their games. Now it is available to the masses.God bless the Chairman and may he live long and prosper. Lar
SPM & Larry,
Thanks for the nomination. I am glad you enjoyed the post.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
Hi there, I have an important question.
I'll be arriving in Vegas soon. I am driving through the night to get there and will arrive in the late morning on Saturday.
The problem is, my girlfriend is flying in to meet me on Sunday so I didn't get a room for Sat night. I was planning to stay up and play poker all night at the Bellagio.
The thing is, I will not have slept at all the night before.
What can I do if I get sleepy? Can I take a nap in the sports book without anyone bothering me? Can I sleep in my car in the parking deck?
This assumes that I just can't stay awake enough to play well.
Can anyone help me out?
You'll be roasted alive if you sleep in your car. Get a cheap room for Saturday night.
.....the good doctor calls "White Trash Planning 101" However, the jury is out until you admit you have cars up on cinder blocks on your front lawn, car doors with different colors than the hood, and the top white trash indicator is a 'saran-wrap-taped' back window.
It just so happens that I can't find anyplace that will let me book a hotel stay for Saturday arrival. I either have to get there Friday or Sunday.
And I happen NOT to be white trash, although I am poor - I just started my residency after finishing medical school this year and I am > 100,000 dollars in debt.
Come on Cheese, if you came to my town, Phila, I'd find you a place at one of the Teaching Hospital's "on call" rooms. Might even get a little on the side (food that is). Wow, only 100K in debt...not bad. The PG2 salary is about 39K here and only a 75 hr week with call every 3rd
....it's about being white trash stupid. Do you have any idea just how much you're playing into the hands of the casinos by staying up all night? Do you have any idea how hot it'll be sleeping in your car? I hope you plan your operations better than your gambling trips. You know: "Oops I thought you wanted a vasectomy - oh shit, you wanted an appendectomy?" Please save yourself some money by getting proper rest - even if you have go to a local motel outside of Vegas. Henderson, Summerlin, they can't all be booked.
You plan to
1) Drive (not fly) through the night 2) Then play all night 3) Not get a room 4) Meet a girlfriend the next day
I'd be very interested in seeing the backup plan that you rejected in favor of this one!
.....I think a-ok to sleep in a car in a nice casino, or in a airport lot or even in the airport.
Two important issues come to mind:
First, driving straight thru, you will be tired. They say when you play tired your game will suffer.
Two, playing with your girl friend when you are tired will result in poor performance. Requiring her to suffer thru it and of course faking it.
SPM,...like the old bull said to the young bull, when he recomended running to the female herd and getting one of girls. "Lets walk and get them all..."
Since your girlfriend isn't arriving until the next day I think the obvious answer is to play at a table with the best looking women in the place and seduce her with your brilliant play and thus providing you with a place for the night.
Have you tried booking a room at Maxim? It's just a couple blocks from Bellagio and I can't imagine they are any where close to full, and it's cheap.
If you make it to 3 or 4 am, go sleep in your car for a few hours and then shift to a casino pool and pull a lawn chair under some shade and crash for a few more.
Good luck,
Paul Talbot
Cheese,
I had a similar situation a few months ago in Vegas. I was quoted a room price of 400.00 for Saturday everyone was booked. I stayed in Laughlin on Saturday, played at Flamingo got a poker room rate for 25.00. Call them up and drive there and then drive to Vegas Sunday morning to see your girl.
Sleeping in your car is dangerous with the high tempetures Vegas has. They will not let you sleep in the sportsbook or any area of the casino.
Pick the hotel you want to stay at. Go to the hotel around noon on Saturday. There will always be guests checking out. Talk to the desk and ask about the chances of getting a room. They will usually tell you when to come back. If you go downtown, you can do this at several hotels. I have never failed to get a room on Saturday this way.
Good Luck Alden Chase
Huge Holdem tables. Dealers at every table. Stacks of chips. All, when we now have computers, huge t.v. screens, and computerized devices which record bets instantaneously. Poker is so facinating, there MUST be some innovations on the drawing board, which will retain the integrity of the game, yet bring it into the 21st century.
Internet poker is the innovation. But part of the fascination with poker is the human interaction, including the dealers. The stacks of chips are part of the fun, especially when you've got a lot of them. I remember a few years back the Masters changed the flags on the pins to a kind of bucket. It really was better, they didn't flap in the wind and the caddies didn't have to hold them when tending the flag. But flags are part of the tradition of the game and they switched back to flags the next year.
Finally played at the "O" and let me tell you it's the nicest run card room that I've been in bar none!!! Nice seats. The three other times that I went I had to wait to play and the second hand smoke was too much for me and I ended up leaving. What a difference the place was spotless no Boston Garden Haze hanging over the rafters just pure clean air. I didn't have to change my clothes after playing and take a shower to get the smell out of my hair. It was run with professionalism and class from what I saw. I only played once there on Tuesday and the place was jammed starting at 11am until I left around 3pm. The rest of the time I played at the Orleans never again until they go non-smoking.
Met Mason "Buffet" Malmuth and his wife Charlmaine (wrong spelling I'm sure) they were very nice and we had a nice conversation about the forum, Z, Vince, DS, Bro, etc. Thank you Mason and C for coming over to the Orleans for dinner that was great. Mason had some great stories something about an elevator and money and an old man.
Played golf at the Badlands GC which is right across from the new Suncoast Casino. Course is nice pos'n type course bring a couple of rock irons if you plan on playing from the desert, otherwise your going to take alot of lifts.
Thanks again Mason
paul
ps: I'm sweating more here than I was in Vegas
It sure would be easier to pick the right game if the tables had warning signs, explaining the kind of action at the table. I think signs would help, lets look at some:
"ROCK ALERT" This sign says it all, no action! Players are so tight you couldn't get a greased beebe up their butts.
"WATCH FOR FALLING ROCKS" Some thing has happened at this table and the rocks are on tilt.
"BOARDER TOWN ACTION" emotions running hot at this table.
"MANIACS ON BOARD" this table is full and the waiting list is long.
"CALLING STATION PAIRADICE" this game is full and there's a three day wait, to get on the list.
"BAD BEAT CORNER" all monster hands are failing to reach the winners circle.
"CHIT CHAT ALERT" at this table there's more verbal socializing going on than action.
"CRY HAVOC RECIPIENT PLAYING" a know it all is playing, crying the blues with every hand he plays, and giving playing instructions to the Any2card winners.
"SWEET MIX ALERT" like the taste of Chicago, all sorts of playing styles.
(Special notice to food lovers. The TASTE OF CHICAGO starts this weekend and will last for ten days. Come, give us a visit!) Back to the signs.
"STATISTICAL CLEANSING IN PROGRESS" the cards are breaking even for one of the player's, who has been winning far above his ability to play the game.
"SUBSTANCE ABUSE" we got a drunk playing every hand and giving his chips away.
"CLUELESS PAIRADICE" any two rags are winning, EVERY SINGLE HAND!
"DERAILED ACES" pocket aces are currently not holding up.
"COMPUTER ALERT" the mystery of Q7 shows it's statistical superiority as the best starting hand in hold'em.
"PRESTO" ET the Electric Tongue is playing in the game. (Inside joke for Aurora, IL players)
"NINJA DEMONSTRATION IN PROGRESS" emotions are hot and the cards are flying into the muck at ninety miles and hour.
"FLAT LINE EMERGENCY" brain dead players in the game, and some ones nose is open and bleeding.
SPM,...what sign would your game have...
And the sign we all love to see on the marquis as we drive up to Hollywood… Michael D is IN THE HOUSE!!
Just another egg
Check out this story on Australia's attitude towards internet gambling
I’m sitting down at my Thursday night 20/40 game at Hollywood. As I get ready for the game I look around. Same lineup, should be a good game. There’s the Skipper, the Professor, wait a minute little buddy didn’t show up (that’s ok… he’s way to tight) … YES! Mary Ann is here he’s good for 2k at least. I go and buy chips and settle into my comfortable 3 seat.
An hour into the game, I get a feeling. This hand should be AA. I peak at the first card… yep A. Second card A. I get a little freaked out again. This doesn’t happen once or even twice a night… it happens numerous times per night.
Not just on what my cards will be. That is really of no value. I sit back, behind my shades and scan the table as the hands are played. I make a point of concentrating on what my internal voice… that subtle feeling in my gut, how does it feel, and what does it mean. I attempt to fine tune this “instinct” by utilizing it. By paying attention to it. It is an effort to bring the sub-conscious to the conscious. It scares the sh*t out of me… but it appears to be working. If I make a call that appears against the odds, its not the odds I’m listening to… its this voice and this voice this feeling is turning a profit….
They say we only utilize 10% of our brains. For an egg, its probably only 5%. Perhaps this is a way to utilize more.
Is this happening to anyone else? Has anyone tried to fine tune this instinct? Are there books that would help?
Why is it when I drive at night 5 or 6 street lights turn off as I go under them?
Damn… I ‘m confused
Just another egg…..
Be sensitive to the subtle differences between 'intuition' and 'into wishing'.
I agree... I wish I had AA every hand. Completely different for knowing I will have them this hand.
There are times that I just "know" things... with no explination.
Cool polst, but a good psychologist (a non-sequiter, I know) should be able to disabuse you of these irrational notions.
Love your email address.
Why would I want to get rid of them... they are profitable....
Egg,
I have lived on this earth for 54 years and I am always amazed at the wonders of the world. You are truly gifted, don't try to finger it out. Some things are just a gift enjoy it. But, to answer your question; Is this happening to anyone else? I can say I've only seen it once before, on the PSYCHIC NETWORK!
SPM,..play long and posper...
Egg-
This happens to me as well. What I believe is happening is that your brain is picking up minute subtleties that are not otherwise tangible or discernable, and putting them all together to create a what can only be described as a "feeling". Not to sound flaky, but I also believe there is a natural universal rhythm to things, that is possible to align oneslef with (I also think it's possible to get complete out of sync with too). There has been much study on this in many areas. Perhaps you've heard of the Elliott Wave Theory which many financial experts use as a technical analysis tool for entering and exiting market positions.
Kevin,
You better stop reading and take a deep breath. About the only thing you two are picking up is radio waves. Put some tin foil on your heads and things will get better in a few months.
SPM,...the spacemen have not landed yet...
Why is it so hard to believe that someone could pick up on something others cannot. Why is a “feeling” unacceptable to act upon?
In “Zen and the Art of Poker” it is suggested that you practice playing by instinct. It is said no limit holdem’ games have gone by the way side because players like Texas Dolly had a “feel” for the game that couldn’t be matched….
Continue to ignore this possibility, I’ll continue to stack the chips...
Just another egg...
Because the "things" you pick up on don't exist. If you are being serious, you are claiming that numerous times a night you know what your hole cards are going to be. A voice only you can hear tells you when to play against the odds and it succeeds. Streetlights turn off at night when you pass under them.
Extra-sensory perception or psychic phenomena or whatever you want to call it is simply a fraud. It's been foisted on us by people interested in making money off of other people's gullability. I dreamt that Dave Righetti would pitch a no-hitter the night before he actually did pitch one. Am I psychic? No. He had been pitching in a superior fashion for several games, having pitched many low-hit games and seemed virtually unhittable the previous game. So I had been thinking about the posibility and it then happened. A long shot, but an educated long shot and nothing more than that.
There is no apparent harm in believing in such things for most people, except that people acting on inner voices only they can hear, believing others to be unenlightened, have caused a lot of trouble in the world.
Anyway, I wish you nothing but the best and that you continue to win.
Andy-
I don't think he was just talking about knowing what's going to happen, but also "feel" situations such as when everything is pointing to your opponent having a certain hand, but something tells you he doesn't. You can't put your finger on why you "feel" this way, but you make the call. It's a call that only a fool would make. A complete fish. Yet, you were right!
This has never happened to you? In this case, I don't believe this "feeling" was a fraud. More likely, it was something (or a number of of things you may have picked up subconciously. Maybe you saw him bet his chips in the same manner 3 weeks ago when he didn't have anything. Or maybe it was something he said, or a facial expression, whatever. A conclusion forms deep down in the recesses of your brain that goes against all tangible evidence to the contrary.
I think the human brain (or mind) is a very powerful, yet complicated apparatus. I agree with egg that the mind is capable of things that science doesn't yet understand.
My sense is one gets this "feeling" a lot, it proves correct sometimes, incorrect other times. We then remember the times it was correct and assume some kind of "power" that doesn't exist.
This selectivity also explains other irrational behavior such as prejudice. One can have a dozen male drivers do something horrible on the road and doesn't think "damn men drivers." But then one woman makes a mistake and the thought is "lousy women drivers."
You may indeed be correct that science is still uninformed about all aspects of the human brain, but the claim to hear inner voices is too often the refuge of a scoundrel.
The Elliot Wave Theory predicted a collapse of the stock market by 1995 followed by a great depression of 10 some years duration. What happened instead was the exact opposite. Record growth and prosperity. The stock market making all time highs year after year from '96 to the present.
"This doesn’t happen once or even twice a night… it happens numerous times per night. "
wow. for me, things like that happen about once a month. personally i feel poker is a great way to develop (probably too strong a word) this kind of skill set.
youre probably just joking, but ill fire away. i think the main thing is to be able to determine whether the thought (say you suddenly had a thought to straddle) was in any way prompted by anything, any stimulus, or whether it truly was just a thought that came from nowhere.
i read in some book (about the war in laos) about how native squadron pilots would report how they had a prophetic dream that told them to no go the mission.(according to the book, squadron commanders would routinely scrap the mission at that point!) thats the danger.
brad
p.s. ive only straddled once (in red chip games) and won (guy in BB had KK, big pot preflop, and an Ace flops ... ive got an Ace.(suited, too). ). anyway, i couldnt figure out for the life of me why i had the thought of straddling, so i went ahead and did it.
all thoughts come from SOMEwhere. Jim
"all thoughts come from SOMEwhere. "
amend to read: a thought that had seemed to have had come from seemingly nowhere.
brad
I tend to agree with some of the others here when they point out that you probably get these "feelings" more often than you are willing to admit later.
Doyle Brunson talks about ESP and brain waves in SS, and he believes in it. He thinks possibly there are brain waves that one can pick up.
This is ridiculous, but even if it is somehow true, that does not explain knowing that AA is going to come. Cards do not give off waves, particles, or feelings. This is just impossible.
Once, I felt my hand was going to be AA. It was. I felt the same for the next 200 hands and didn't get it.
Sometimes, events randomly bear out irrational feelings. Pay attention to how often you have these felings; most of the time, you will be wrong.
Just because science has not proved it true, doesn't mean it isn't. and just because science has "proved it true doesnt mean it is.
Since I moved up to mid-limit casino play I've only played the 8-16 and 15-30 at Bellagio on my trips to Vegas.
I was thinking of starting out next week at 10-20 which is a limit I like a lot.
Can anyone tell me about the Mirage game in terms of how it compares to the Bellagio 15-30?
Also, who else spreads 10-20? I think Binions and the Orleans, how are those games?
Any comments are appreciated.
Thanks,
Paul Talbot
I personally have had more success in the bellagio 15-30. the mirage 10-20 tends to be a little tighter and alot weaker. the players are more predictable but they don't give away as much as the players in the 15-30. plus i've found more touristy types at the bellagio. the 15-30 games are more agressive and some of the players are really good but the average weekend game is generally pretty good. if you get a chance that game is almost always good between 3am and 7am. some of the best games i've played in at any limit were early morning games at the bellagio during the middle of the week. of course they usually excellent on the weekends as well.
orleans spreads 10-20 on some weekends with a smaller blind structure (2-5 or 3-5 maybe) i've never played but i've heard its pretty good.
never played at binions, went there once to play didn't have a 10-20 and left but the place is a total s*** hole compared to the bellagio and mirage so i never saw the point in going back.
Good to see you here again buddy. Sorry we couldn't hook up in Vegas last time. I will be back at the end of September. Hope you are around then.
Been playing some fun no limit in the Wallingford basement and a weekly Sunday tournament there and at Joey's. Wish you were around.
KJS
yea, sorry i never got back to about last may, but i left own before then. i will definitley be in vegas in late sept, i believe the four queens open is around that time, we should get together.
My personal experience is more limited than most on this forum, but I found the Bellagio 8-16 to be much better than the Mirage 10-20. I have played the Bellagio 8-16 on several occasions and it has been a fantastic game most of the time. There always have been some very live tourists. Only for a brief period was I the live one! I have not stepped up to 15-30 yet, but I was thinking about taking a shot at it when I was at the Bellagio in December. I was on the list, but I got in an 8-16 game while I was waiting. When my name was called for 15-30, I wouldn't leave because the game was so good.
I have stayed and played at the Orleans on several occasions. They only got the 10-20 going once during the time I was there. It is a 1/2 blind structure, i.e. blinds of $2 and $5. I played in it just the one time and the game was very good. But I doubt it will get going unless the tournament or something is there.
Don't know about Binion's. They seem to get the 10-20 going, but I played the little no-limit the last time I was there instead. I am not a huge fan of Binion's, so I don't play a lot there.
I played 10-20 at the Regent in Las Vegas last weekend. The game was about as soft as you will find anywhere in the nation. One player cold called a raise with 3,2 off suit, and called all the way to the river, after completly missing the flop!
Sometimes it's 8-16 on the weekend but lately it's been 10-20 (at the Regent that is).
Good Luck
Howard
what's the blind structure, what days and times does it usually go. i'm very interested.
Look for it on the weeekend.
The blind stucture is the standard $5sb, $10bb.
They had the game last friday deep into graveyard. I went up there about 1:00am this morning and was told the game just broke for the night. So it's best to call first.
They just about never have it mid-week though.
Good Luck
Howard
When is the holdem book you are co-authoring with Bob Ciaffone due to come out?
Care to post any excerpts ahead of time for critique and/or praise?
A9
Bob and I are hoping to have it published around September, 2001. It will be entitled "Middle Limit Hold'em Poker". I believe Bob wrote an article in CardPlayer just recently that has an excerpt from it. The thrust of the book will be learning through example. We will discuss a specific concept or a specific situation and then have many examples taken from live play which illustrate the important considerations involved in arriving at a decision. The examples will be presented in the same format that I use in my CardPlayer columns.
Jim,
When do I get my copy for review? I'm thinking of becoming review partners with Gary Carson. Sort of like the Sisco and Ebert of Poker book reviewing. We will be happy to rake you and Ciaffone over the coals.
vince
This is indeed great news. We who play middle limits will be fortunate to have a text by you and Bob.
I'm thinking of asking Tommy Angelo to co-author a poker survival text with me. He'll write the authoritative section on the correct things to do, and I'll give counter-examples from my own live play experience. This will be a nice contrast to your book where both authors know what they're talking about.
question to andy--does that mean two who do and two who don't? ? ? ? Jim
No,no, two who do and one who don't (me). Tommy's always at least two steps ahead of me.
you may be right about Tommy being two steps ahead....I'm POSITIVE he is two words ahead! Jim
I've worked hard, over many years to get my poker game in good shape. Currently, I'm into about eleven straight winning sessions. A holiday weekend is approaching and I have NO plans to play poker. I think, I am getting "chicken". I keep coming-up with excuses not to play this day, or the next. I haven't played in over a week. Ever had feeling like those?
What your feeling is the footsteps of a statistical cleansing. I had a 17 game winning streak earlier this year. When it ended, I was left in a void, and now I can't find my way back home. Don't be afraid, it only hurts for a little while. Then you get so numb, you can't fell the pain. Maybe you'll get lucky and the grimm reaper will pass you by, stay tight and aggressive.
SPM,...play long and prosper...
SPM, I really like that "footsteps" line--you hit the nail on the head, he knows that he is due to book a loss. But you had a plus for 17 times in a row, so maybe he has a long way to go. probably can't stay much longer anyway, so I say go on in and try to beat SPM's record. remember "doom wasn't built in a day"/ or something like that. Jim
I took the plunge, and headed back to the "room", today. Struggled through 4 hours of 20/40 HE (stuck most of the time), then hit two hands with junk cards, for a $440 win. That was it for the day ( I was the oldest person at the table. I don't have that "all night" stamina.)
:-)
poker AUTHORS... for this purpose let's include books, magazines, and even the net: _________________ whose last name sounds like a cross between an orange and another citrus fruit ____________________ Whose last name reminds you of a city in the mid-east ________ whose last name reminds you of some huge prehistoric beast ________ a name which suggests he may really have somthing on the front burner ________ whose last name reminds you of gigantic objects found in the artic ______ one which sort of sounds like the name of a certain maffis guy who may have had a lot to do with early days LasVegas and later retired to Florida ______ whose last name is used on an object found in chemistry lab _____ think about the OPPOSITE of hyperactive... that word rhyms with combination of first and last name of this author ______ this could be some foreign food dish _____ his name is similar to that of a gold coin
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
I think the literature is missing a good "poker theory" book in the same vein as Sklansky's Theory of Poker. That book is the classic, but is outdated somewhat (still a must read). There needs to be more done on fourth street play, with more examples from hold'em and O8, which are the present day popular games other than 7stud. The book would be a massive undertaking, as getting all the concepts, logic and math correct is no easy task. Further, a better layman's explanation of the ideas would be useful. The book must not take a "style", just a logic and math based approach which is devoid as much as possible of "opinion". There relatively few people with the requisite poker knowledge, time, and inclination to write such a book. In a few months I might be putting something up on the web, no profit, under a psuedonym, which might do some of this. This way I could put some of my more controversial theories (clearly defined as such) as well. I have about 50 pages of material which took a heck of a lot of work. Fortunately, I have a good network of poker knowledgable proofreaders who will be eventually be subjected to it. It would be free to all, and we would strive to make it at least close to the Sklansky standard. Anyway, Sklanksy won't do it so why don't one of you?
nt
scalf, No just like Sklansky's TOP but with modern examples. Cover some areas like fourth street. Not repeating the material in that book it would be pointless, not too mention against the law. Quite frankly I wish Sklansky would do it. Regards.
Keep me posted when the web site goes up. I'll take a look at it and if it looks worth while we'll establish a link.
Of course, Mason. It won't go up if it isn't worthwhile, by the way. You can even see it before it goes up if you are worried about copyright. Regards.
Okay. That'a a deal.
The Valley of Patience can be a beautiful place to play when the Streets leading to the River are patrolled by the Valley Police. There exists great danger on the Streets leading to the River in Any2card Town (A2CT). The A2CT police will only travel on the Streets to the River in pairs. The Board Town (BT) Streets to the River are loaded with emotionally charged players. The BT players have either forgotten to take their anti depressants or Valium or they are they are just plain nuts. But, no matter where you are the Streets leading to the River are always busy.
When playing on the Streets to the River there is always some danger. However, most people feel safest on the VoP Streets. You'll see all kinds of beautiful things on the VoP Streets, a husband and wife, perfectly suited for one another, reaching the River and eating all the nuts they find along the path. Kings and Queens walking in pairs unmolested, wise guys like Big Slick playing aggressively and scarring all the bullies off the Streets. In the VoP things go your way more often than not. You see everything and can sense danger form far off, allowing you to hide in the muck until the bad weather passes.
At the turn of the Century the VoP was a in full bloom. The Streets were pave with gold and there were no surprises at the Rivers edge. Each month that passed was filled with a bouquet of roses and a love note from Lady Luck. The poker god provide miracles on the river when needed and the calling stations just called and called and called, but no one would answer their cries for help. It was life in the fast lane for this VoP player. The statistics promised wealth beyond belief. Nothing was impossible even fishing at the river always meant catching the limit. It was four wonderful, glorious, spectacular months in the VoP.
Then from out of no where came a raging fire at the beginning of the fifth month of the new century. At first there were no worries. The premium was paid and the insurance covered the fire. The fire raged out of control, burning all the bouquets from Lady Luck. Strong pairs found themselves diving into the river and being swept away by a flash flood. An occasional rain would slow the fire for a day or two but this was a fire that would not be stopped. Rescue plans were put into play, but fire was too intense.
By the sixth month of the new century, looters had heard about the fire sale in the VoP. They raped and pillaged and smiled at the rivers edge with their puny faces flushed with rags filled with ill gotten bounty. Like vampires they multiplied faster than rabbits on viagra. The only way to kill vampires is with nails, but these were high breed vampires and they were impervious to nails. The looting continues and fear and despair has grabbed the man in the VoP.
SPM,...in the burn unit of VoP hospital, please send get well cards...
SPM,
Hang in there - you have taken some brutal beats I am sure over the last few sessions. Stay in the VOP and all will be fine. You sure do not want to come live where I reside in Suckersville.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
the new face you receive from the skin graft will make a new player out of you and fool the opposition. use it to your advantage.
Hello All,
OK OK - After my last two posts (Top 10 Sucker signs and Square Root Advanced Math) I know all of you will be changing your plans for the next week and fighting to get at the same hold-em table I will be at because it is true that I will be getting on a plane for Vegas in about 3 hours. Just decided on a spontaneus trip. OK - well actually I was not sure if I was going to Vegas or Cancun and since I am not sure yet if my girl will be joining me on Monday or not, I opted for Vegas. At least I will be able to play through Monday, and if she can make it then I will probably not be playing as much for the remainder of the week. (Probably save me a few thousand $'s)
Any fellow 2+2ers who live there or will be there, I am the Soccer Coach from Chicago so if you happen to be at the same table or are in town, please say hello. Last few trips, I was able to meet Mason and David. Still have yet to meet Jim Brier as I did not make it to the Mirage as I was busy giving away $10 chips at the 30-60 game. Hopefully I will get to meet a few of you.
OK - Vegas there is a Sucker coming in town from Chicago for at least a day or two until my money runs out (maybe only 1 hand). I will be playing at Bellagio and maybe Mirage. All I ask is that you take it easy and not beat me up too bad. Remember, us Suckers may not come back if you are too mean to us.
I look for to meeting some of you.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
PS - Anyone know if Mirage has gotten the 40-80 holdem off at all??
See you there. By the way, will you be playing in the morning or at night? Just curious.
Mike-
It looks like you just picked up #11 on your list of "Top Ten signs you are the Sucker at the Table"... : )
Geesh - BRUTAL BEING ME!!!!!! Kevin - actually that rates out much higher than 11th!!!!! Oh yeah and just to clarify, I usually play at nights.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
Hi Mason,
Sorry to dissapoint you and the rest of the locals waiting for all my checks, but I missed my flight and decided to stay just stay in Chicago and spend time with my girl. Good thing too as I had totally forgotten that this Tuesday is her birthday. WOW - talk about drawing completely dead with zero outs! Must have been dumb blind luck there was more traffic than I anticipated. After I knew I had missed the flight I just turned around before I got to the airport as I had told myself that I would not fly standby.
Funny thing about that instinct thing - I had found out on the way to the airport that Mary would not be joining me and with my missing my original flight, I really found myself not wanting to go as much. Probably a good thing as I am sure I would have just given all my money away as usual.
Promise I will be back soon though to give you the money you missed out on Mason. As interest though, I offer you a drink and bite to eat my next trip out if you are interested.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
"I offer you a drink and bite to eat my next trip out if you are interested."
That's a deal. Just let me know ahead of time when you'll be here.
inside joke but when you offer to buy mason dinner take him to a buffet if you want to have any money left to play poker. just ask mark weisman.
Mike:
I think it is only fair that you let the players here in Aurora, IL know how much money you are planning to take to Las Vegas on this trip. Good players like myself, the professor, rockford dave, roger, dennis, rasvi and "ship it" need to know how much income we are going to lose for the week by you not being here. Just kidding. Letting Dave, Mason, Roy and Yamamotto know you bankroll won't hurt either. Little do they know that your the "champ of the midwest" and "chairman of the board" when it comes to the game of poker.
Take it easy on them, like myself, they have a reputation to live up to.
Good luck and have a safe trip home.
Damn Marauder,
"Good players like myself, the professor, rockford dave, roger, dennis, rasvi and "ship it" "... at least I know where I rate in your book...
... that's it... no more chips for you...
Just another egg
Anthony Quinn (died June 3rd)
Carroll O'Conner (died June 21st)
Jack Lemmon (died June 27th)
Very interesting I died at the poker table on each of those days. What does it mean.
SPM,...empathy...
3rd man on match
Looks like a stretch to me.
Actually, I agree with you 100%, it's a silly notion. And why is it only the movie community who supposedly dies in threes? Why not caddies, plumbers, or poker pros?
John Lee Hooker
Chet Atkins
???????????
Who's going to be next?
A long time ago i decided to read anything i could get from 2+2. Now after reading PokerFarce and PokerTruth (The Actual Real World of Poker) by Ray Michael B. i change my mind. This is realy a terrible book and not worth the money. It has nothing to say at all about poker. It's my opinion that it is not even a POKERBOOK. 2+2.... you can do better !!!!
I liked PokerFarce and PokerTruth. That's why I spent my money to publish it. The book gets mixed reactions from readers. A few people have told me it's just great and others, like yourself, just don't see where it has any value.
I think that it should be clear that it is not a strategy book, and all the facts that it contains may not be completely accurate. English writer David Spanier, told me before he passed away, that the author couldn't even quote Churchill correctly. But I stll think it is a good read, especially the history chapters.
For those who are interested there is an excerpt on our "Books" page from the Pearl Harbor Chapter which is some of the best material in Poker Farce and PokerTruth.
Is it possible to be a poker martyr? That's the question before us today, it may seem like a foolish question but, humor me for the moment. Most serious poker players try to play from the Valley of Patience (VoP) because the bibles tells us so. We read on the Internet about professional poker players. The words of wisdom form these prophets of poker, indicate they play from the VoP. What are the standards for a player to be considered a martyr, and then how long will it take for them to become saints.
I was baptized a Catholic, and my soul was indelibly stamped, property of the Catholic Church. The religious fanatics pounded the Catholic doctrine into my brain for years until I was throughly brained washed. It was during those years of torture that I learned about the Christian martyrs and how they became saints. When I reached the age of reason, I knew the truth had been kept from me. I am now a true follower of the all mighty poker god. I pray to him religiously, attend poker prayer sessions numerous times a week. I am now a religious poker fanatic. The doctrine I learned as a tortured child will help us travel through the question at hand. What is a poker martyr and will they ever be canonized saints.
The second and third definitions in Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, the 1977 copyright edition. Addresses exactly what we are looking for.
mar-tyr 2: one who sacrifices his life or something of great value for the sake of principle. 3: VICTIM esp: a great or constant sufferer.
First we most look at the mind set of the poker player, for it is here we will find his/her beliefs and principles. We know what the mind set of the Any2card Town residents are; simply stated any2willdo. Without offending any ones style of play. We all know in our heart the any2willdo strategy is not a very worthy principle. Nor would anyone sacrifices his life or something of great value to defend it's virtues. Well maybe some players hang onto that any2willdo strategy with reckless abandon. But, in the long run they find they must work past retirement, file for bankruptcy or turn to another religion called Slots, a religion for the brain dead.
Players with the mind set of Boarder Town are an emotional group. They play with their feelings rather than their brains, before the flop. They rush to the altar of the flop, playing cards that range from monster hands to any2willdo, depending on their current state of emotions. They have no allegiance to starting requirements, they are only true to their emotions. A clever bunch after the flop but no standards before the flop. They will not sacrifice their life or something of great value for the sake of principles before the flop. They loot and pillage their victims and pride themselves on the fact, it's hard to put them on a hand.
The VoP it appears is the only mind set that has a strict religious standard of belief. They are willing to sacrifices their life or something of great value for the sake of principle. When they sit in a game most observant players know them to be chip leaders, and protectors of the faith. They will travel on the web and defend the doctrine of patience, power, and position and let no man try to move them into another mind set. They are the true believers and practice what they preach.
So we know the doctrine of the martyr is patience, power and position. But does the martyr always live in the VoP, the answer is no. Even the great Christen martyr's questioned their on faith, and were plagued with doubt and temptation. The true poker martyr, has belief in the doctrine of the three P's, but he is not a resident of the VoP, he is a nomad (a member of a people that has no fixed residence but wanders from place to place...)
Our true martyr is a combination of both of Webster's definitions 2 & 3. The martyr must be one who sacrifices his life or something of great value for the sake of principle, and be a VICTIM of great or constant suffering. Now everyone knows the true residents of the VoP never cry out in pain, never criticizes a player who beats them, never complains, just mucks the hand in a quite professional manner.
So who qualifies as a true martyr of poker, it must be the winners of the Cry Havoc Award, one who cries while potentially destroying the financial opportunities of the rest of the table. These players are the true martyrs of poker. They have fleeting faith in the 3 P's, they suffer loudly when the doctrine fails them, they feel victimized by the clueless and the lucky and they preach the doctrine of the 3 P's to the sinners who hurt them. Will they ever become saints, it would appear we need more time to ponder that question. To be canonized a saint someone must have the last word in the decision to canonize or not to canonize a martyr into sainthood. Unfortunately these martyr's never stop talking, so no one gets a chance to vote.
SPM,...amen...
We are now on a new server that is just dedicated to this site. If everything works well, the response time should be much better and those occasional long delays won't happen. If any of you have some problems, please let us know.
It is working much better so far. Out of curiosity, who is hosting your web site? Is it a dedicated srever at a colocation facility or is it located on 2+2 property and managed by a third party?
I don't know these answere. Chuck Weinstock takes care of this end.
nt
works well for me too as now i even have some time to figure out what that crazy paul feeney is trying to say. that guy gives me the fits. maybe he gets the yips.
i have a question...
i need to figure out confidence intervals (similar to SD), but without any samples.
simplistic example, a coin flip. 10^6 flips, i average .5*10^6 heads.
i would like some measure similar to the standard deviation where i could say X% probability that the numbers would lie in this range, X+Y% in this larger range, etc.
how do i do this?
im a dummy with no math skills. be gentle.
I want to check out a particular thread from the General Theory Forum for May 2001, but when i go to 'Archives' and hit 'Recent', it covers the dates of about June 25 back to about May 31st 2001. The next later dates I have access to are in the year 2000. How do I access the threads from the rest of May 2001?
Thanks, Danny D.
Many of the archives are currently unavailable as a side effect of the move to a new server. The "recent" archives were simply too big.
They will be made available again over the next few weeks.
Thanks for your patience.
Chuck
For instance on the jewish calendar it's the year 5758(or something like that). And I know the chinese calendar is way past the year 2000, so it's been the year 2000 at least twice before.
reminds me of something that came up the other day. theres no mapping between real numbers and the real world. chunks you know. so i know what you mean.
brad
Well, lots of civilizations have had calanders so you could also add in the old Roman calander, the old Iranian (pre-Islamic), some Indian ones, some native American ones and if we go to old lunar based calander systems (such as is evidenced in the old testament--why people lived 800 "years") then they have all passed 2000.
Of course we actually don't know if we got our own 2000 right since we started our calander well after the year 1 and applied it retrospectively and it had inaccuracies and dates in other calander systems are not always in agreement.
Paul Talbot
s
The game was as tight as Jack Benny's comedy routine persona. Everyone was complaining but no one was willing to mix it up. "There should be a law against too many Valley of Patience (VoP) players in one game," said the tightest player in the game. "You got that right! Chimed in another Rock, "I feel like I'm in a rock quarry and no one knows who the foremen is." "We need some action players suggested a guy from Boarder Town, who was currently on vacation in the VoP. Their comments were like the pot calling the kettle black. So there they all sat, like black belt marshal arts experts practicing their defense moves. Releasing all but the best of starting hands. The game was raise and nine folds or eight folds and a chop. Everyone knew the only thing they needed was for someone to get their nose bloody and the game would open up. Finally someone got discussed and left the game. Like a chorus of hungry salivating carnivores they all yelled seat open. "Send us a Christian!" yelled one of the gladiators, to the Floor.
When CC and his buddy Water took the open seat, the carnivores circled the prey like a pack of hungry jackals. The first hand given to CC & Water was the square root hand 24 soooted, it was a winner. CC had read the Chairman's cliff notes on the square root hands. The carnivores looked at each other and smiled the smile of dinner being served. They were having visions of approaching wildebeest at a alligator crossing, believing they were the alligators. They were none believers of the square root hand concept. When CC & Water raised with Q7 double suited from UTG and won a huge pot. Their smiles of joy were replaced with frowns of venom, looking for revenge. Now they were like rattle snakes coiled, looking for an opportunity to strike a killing bite. However, CC was in the zone of the clueless and Lady Luck was on his shoulder, whispering sweet nothings into his ear. It was a humiliating experience for the carnivores, who had been turned into lunch.
Another seat opened as one tight passive Rocks ran out of the poker room, like a chicken with his head cut off. Jack Daniels took the seat and the game began to turn into a bar owners delight. CC & Water seemed to speak the same language as Jack Daniels. One player inquired, "I thought you could only speak English at the table." The dealer responded with, "Sir, they are speaking English, just not the Kings English."
The prayer from the VoP had been answered, the game was now wide open. Unfortunately it was full of bleeding residents from the VoP. They were getting the kind of action that creates nightmares. When CC & Water wasn't punishing them, Jack Daniels would splash his chips in their faces, while calling the waitress for another set up of Jack Daniels and CC & Water.
SPM,...be careful what you wish for, you might find yourself in a game with X AAA members, on a rush...
crocks live with the wildebeests not gators. as for the chickens without heads my uncle had a chicken farm and used to behead them, and once in awhile one would run around for quite some time without a head. beats me.
Why couldn't there be wildebeests from Florida? I hear they got aligators in Florida and they arn't picky where the wildebeests come from. Cut me some slack, I live in a Suburban wilderness and the only wildlife we got here, are squirrels. They like nuts, that's why I play poker, it's an inside sport.
SPM,...just my luck, a wildlife expert...
SPM,
Although I occasionally find myself in the Valley of Patience, I have discovered that sometimes it is advisable to learn another language besides the Kings. Sunday at Hollywood can be one of those times for me as many discovered at the table tonight. If you ask Professor Larry or Kevin J. after tonights performance, they will tell you I was definitely speaking a language other than the Kings for most of the night. I have learned to listen to the voices of logic and join the many Sunday players in the clueless zone. The language of Square Root hands is the next best thing to the Kings English when the Kings are on a hiatus.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
"If you ask Professor Larry or Kevin J. after tonights performance, they will tell you I was definitely speaking a language other than the Kings for most of the night."
You definitely re-wrote a few of the books tonight. I managed to salvage enough of my bankroll to purchase them. When the banks open, I'll check and see if I have enough $$ to practice what I read. (I wonder what my wife would think about a 2nd mortgage).... : )
.
Chairman
You put a show on that has no equal. I can't speak for Kevin but at least i understand why i don't win.Your so many levels above my game that the pyramids aren't going to help me.When i go to Vegas i'm going to meet with Mason and pay him to give you bad advice.Nice win an will see you Thursday. Lar
hey high desert man. since you live in the idaho desert you may be near a great spot to fish. i must admit i havent been there in many years but on the road south of sun vally (93) on the way to twin falls is a place where the richfield canal gets near the road or does cross it. this canal runs into the lake there and in the late summer or fall when the water is drawn down too much for the irrigators, the giant trout that have moved up from the lake get trapped in the small holes and pockets. its hard fishing but you can catch 4 to 8 pounders in 6 inches of water and weeds. or get your float tube out and float silver creek for a nice day.
I wish they would screen all irrigation ditches.
that would keep the fish from getting stranded and dying when they go dry. another type of screening for fishermen is needed too. it would keep out of the sport those guys that seem to get lost all the time and get their lines caught in the bushes:). that would cut down on search and rescue costs.
4th is going to be almost 100 in missoula, sounds like a good time to finish last years house painting job.eh
My new plan. I went out 4 times last week after work. I will paint some on my days off. Did 5hrs on Fri. I'm a good boy. I'm progressing well on the 3 yr plan. Clark Fork fishing well in the evenings, lots of bugs. If I could see the spent spinners in the film I might have a banner evening.
i flew to a flyin in hamiton sat. and on the way home stopped in polson for a swim. the big yellow mayflies were coming off the lake. that means at evening big cutts will be around the shores of flathead lake and whitefish lake as well as many of the lakes that see these flies. this is the peak week or two for them and few fishermen know this.
Watched the moon rise. Could still see a pod of fish rising. After 5 min of casting, lifted the rod and a 15" spunky rainbow was on. Even though they were still rising I left, don't fish in the dark much anymore. So with a smile on my face I'm putting away my rod when I hear a snapping noise,opps. Broke the tip. Even though I've broken 5 or 6 rods before this was a first, putting it in my case. Its my favorite rod, hope I can get it replaced, I don't keep paperwork.
Not familiar with the yellow mayfly or Polson Lake. Is it a good fishery?
"Its my favorite rod"
Well I guess you'll know better the next time and keep it in your pants! Sometimes, mommy knows best.
Vince
vince, you can find your penis fixation in anything huh. did mommy put boxing gloves on you dear vince?
"did mommy put boxing gloves on you dear vince?"
Yes. And? Don't all mommies?
vince
BTW - I do not have a penis fixation. Why it's never even been broken.
flathead lake not polson lake. good fishery for the flies especially at dark on whitefish lake dont know much about flathead at dark but suspect it would be the same. i wonder if you might get them down at seely or over at browns lake near you.
most of the name brand rod companies replace tips free no paperwork neededvsince orvis started doing it about 15 years ago. winston did one for me on a 30 year old rod i broke when i hit it on the rocks swinging at my lab who kept chasing my line into the water every time i cast. i was all the way over on the missouri with only one rod in the car. i got my just reward for being an ass.
Look on internet for rod maker & toolfree #, call them & they will probably replace less s&h. u will probably have to send in the butt section.
Good Luck....
Flats in Colorado
Ray, you let the secret out. The cuts are pretty smart though and not that easy to catch on the lake. always did real well with the laketrout that were trying to eat the cuts trying to eat the big bugs. We would always put in at the state park on whitefish lake and hug the shore line heading north.
thats exactly where i fish (beaver bay), so stay away or ill sink your boat.
"thats exactly where i fish (beaver bay), "
Beaver Bay! What a place for a penis! Heaven, Ray's in heaven and his .... that he can HARDly speak... cause his penis is happy in Beaver creek...I mean bay!
Vince
That spot is pretty close to where I live. I have not fished it though. I generally fish up around Sun Valley, making a day of it, so that area is on the way. Thanks for the heads up. I think they have already lifted all the limits in that area because it will go dry this year. They are not quite at salvage methods yet, i.e. anything but dynamite goes, but they could get there. I talked to a guy who fished that a week or two ago, who said he got some nice fish.
Silver Creek is also close. I have not fished it yet because I am a novice. I am sort of waiting until my competence is a bit higher. I hear so much good stuff about it, but the fish know what they're doing a lot more than I do. I have not even been out yet this year, isn't that awful. June was too busy.
"or get your float tube out "
I didn't think that tube of yours could float at you age. How do you do it? Inflation?
Vince
what ever happened to that pyramid power stuff. where you slept under a pyramid and it somehow helped you. are there still followers of it.
I will sell you a power pyramid for $199.99. E-mail me.
Many lose their shirts sleep under this pyramids .
I heard of guy who played poker using a pyramid concept. He played no limit poker and went broke.
SPM,...play long and prosper...
z,
That theory is so Old it's mummified!!! Today the YUPPIES sleep under pyramids of $1 bills GREEN side up facing the stars. This way they are sleeping under the pyramid and when they have to use the $1 bills to live they know they have to go get a JOB!!!!! It's a built in LUCK system for these YIPHTOES!!!!!!!!!
lcf
Clearly your question has stumbled into one of the great powers of ancient or modern times. The power of the pyramid EXISTS!!!! I kid you not.
Just the other day, as I was experiencing the full power and wonders of the universe that can only be experienced with the aid of psilocybin. As I sat there, burning incense, talking to my chair, my foot and my dead grandmother (yes it was a very interesting conversation), I was enlighten to a vast amount of knowledge. If you could get your feet to talk you would be much better off.
I will share with you what I learned. But only if you promise not to utilize this POWERFUL information in a harmful manner.
Everything is energy. Each form or shape generates its own unique energy or frequency that is appropriate for use in certain applications. The pyramid form is fundamental to the universe. It is one of the five platonic solids from which all other geometry is generated. The pyramid can be a powerful tool in our growth and awakening. Many factors contribute to the specific energy being generated by a pyramid: its’ shape, the angle of its sides, and the material it is composed of are all relevant. Different shapes of pyramids generate different resonant fields and do different jobs. A specifically designed the crystalline pyramid appears to be the most appropriate for balancing the energy in our bodies, and helping to awaken our latent abilities. Pyramids are made of certain metals and layered with specific additional metals in order to increase their field strength and to add particular beneficial vibrations. The best pyramids are made with copper, brass, and silver, and are then plated with nickel, gold, and rhodium. Copper and brass harmonize our energy field. Silver balances the upper three chakras with the lower three. 24 carat gold plating enables the pyramid to be used omni-directionally. Rhodium adds field strength and has known healing properties. The total combination of metals creates a strong orgone energy field which can be very therapeutic.
How Does A Pyramid Work?
The pyramidal shape collects energy from certain bandwidths of the electromagnetic emanations from space and focuses it into vortices or energy spirals. This powers it. The pyramid is able to refocus light, as all energy is light, into its sub-atomic particles called tachions. Tachion energy is the “glue” of the universe. It is the bond between the spiritual and the physical realms of reality. There exist three magnetic fields of tachion energy, represented as pairs of charged particles: the physical (- - ), the mental (+ -), and the spiritual (+ +).The pyramid shape is literally a collector and focusing tool for all three of these energies. The human aura has a primarily (- -) charge. As humanity advances, we must change our auras to a more (+ +) charge. The pyramid is an electrical capacitor, or tuning device that can help humanity achieve this change. --------- + + Spirit -------------------- ------------------------- + - Mind ----------------------------- - - Body The pyramid can also be described as an electromagnetic energy collector, or antenna, that collects the frequencies of energy and places them in layers, one upon the other. Similar to the way in which a prism breaks up white light into seven colors of the full spectrum, the pyramids’ energy is also composed of seven sub levels. These seven sub component levels of magnetism correspond to the seven major energy centres in the human body called the chakras.
Why Use A Pyramid?
The pyramid can help an individual learn to use and understand the electromagnetic field of their own aura. A pyramid antenna magnifies the receivers’ ability to use energy. The energy that is magnified is the life force energy of the human body - the aura. The seven magnetic components that pyramids emit are in balance or “normalized” with the universal energies. Absorbing the pyramids’ balanced energies helps us to balance and vitalize our own energy centres. The auric field of an individual indicates the average level of their seven chakras. The pyramid helps to increases this auric field by simply placing it on one of the chakras. This may be proven by “muscle testing” for the pyramid, or by observing the increase in auric field by the use of Kirlain photography or an aurameter. Environmental pollution and human resistance to the natural flow of order in the universe create blockages in our chakras. Organs then become toxic in the body as elimination of waste becomes less efficient. Vitality decreases. The pyramid helps to increase the flow of energies in our chakras and this increases our vitality. Flow of energy through the chakras is also required for good mineral absorption Minerals are absorbed both through osmosis and magnetically. When a chakra weakens, mineral deficiencies occur. Building the vitality of the weak chakra enhances absorption efficiency and helps to restore mineral balance.
Suggested Uses for a Pyramid
*Balance your Chakras. Hold the pyramid over your seven chakras, for 3 - 5 minutes for each chakra. If desired, tune the pyramid by feeling for the maximum energy sensation while moving the pyramid either closer to the body or farther away from the chakric point. Observe if this distance from the body changes from point to point. Feel the change in energy and degree of calmness.
* Charge your food and beverage with the energy of the pyramid. Charging your body with the magnetism of the pyramid will result in detoxification. The best way to maintain the pyramid energies in your body for an extended period is by charging the pyramid energies into the food you consume. It is simple. Place the bottom of the pyramid facing your meal just before you eat. In one minute the food will be charged. During the whole time that this food is being digested, your body will be receiving a “trickle charge” of this pyramid energy. Food charged under a pyramid is easier to assimilate, digest, and eliminate because of its higher resonance,
* Ripen your fruit in the field of the pyramid. Place the base of the pyramid facing the fruit that you are ripening, or place the fruit within the pyramid. Fruit tastes much better and is much juicer when ripened in the field of the pyramid. You can also charge your fresh produce and other food. Pyramid treated foods remain fresh longer than untreated foods.
* Place the pyramid over water, coffee, tea, cigarettes, wine, vitamins, food supplements, and any substance that may contain synthetic chemicals. The vortex of energy from the pyramid will change the molecular spin from a clockwise (synthetic) to an anticlockwise (organic) rotation, thereby neutralizing materials that are foreign to the body. Muscle test before and after charging. Observe the difference in vitality levels.
* Relieve minor aches and pains in a relatively short time by placing the pyramid on anything that hurts.
* Sleep under the pyramid. Suspend the pyramid so that it reaches a level less than 3 feet above the bed. The first night may be slightly uncomfortable as toxins are removed. You may also sit in the field of the pyramid.
* Place a razor in the pyramid. Razor blade experiments with pyramids have proven their ability to sharpen razor blades to thousands of people. A razor blade becomes dull when the molecular structure looses its crystalline shape. When the blade is placed in the electromagnetic antenna of the pyramid, the crystalline structure is repaired and the blade again appears to be sharp. Leave your razor blade in the pyramid between uses.
* Place gemstones in the pyramid. Specific gemstones may be placed inside the pyramid to “tune” its’ energies to specific chakras. This creates a synergistic effect that is more powerful than the pyramid or the gemstone by itself. Gemstones will maintain their charge for 2-3 weeks after being placed in the pyramid for only I minute.
* Enhance plant growth by placing a pyramid over a plant. Treat the water before you water your plants. · Pets appreciate charged food and water as well.
Whoa!!! Got to do now… coming down hard…. … until next time..
Just another egg.
Ray: Aren't you glad you asked? Make sure you don't use this information in a harmful manner.
J.A.E.: Fabulous post, I jumped to yours first because I knew it would be dynamite.
Rick Nebiolo is apparently going through a tough time at the tables, I'm going to suggest he talk with his feet, balance his chakras, and place a pyramid on his missed draws.
talking to your feet is highly encouraged...
you weren't supposed to look here
JAE,
I understand everything about the pyramids now. Thanks so much for the info - I still have to do a better job of "tuning" my pyramid though; especially when playing inferior hands such as KK and QQ. Thanks again for the great info :)-
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
thanks i got the answer to my question from you. i knew ii could count on you and should have assigned you the task to start.
No prob. Ray.
I guess all you were looking for was a "yes"...
Maybe we could meet in Sadona...try and find a vortex!
Just another egg
ill be adding vortex generators to something i own soon. they will help hold the air to the boundary layer. no yoke egg.
.
Hi Gang!
I'm coming up to Vegas on the 4th of July for a few days to play the Orleans Open Tournament. Will there be any free public fireworks on the 4th near the Orleans or somewhere on the strip area? If so, what time after sunset and where is a good observation spot?
Thanks...
well some of yall will be happy to hear this, according to a blurb in the clarion-ledger (Jackson, MS daily paper) the poker room of the grand casino Gulfport has just gone no smoking, or will sometime in the very near future. (the article was not very clear about this) It did not mention anything about the Grand in Biloxi or Tunica, but if it works they cant be far behind. personaly I hope it flops miserably but at least it will come closer to a scientific test of the economic impact simply because there is another poker room that spreads pretty much the same games, at the same limits, with the same rake, and operated by the same company very close by.
Am taking a business trip to St. Paul and Minneapolis next month. Is there poker there, Indian or otherwise? (Indian as in reservation by the way, not the kind where you stick your card to your forehead)
If so, any tips or reccomendations very much appreciated.
MAP
From the Poker Pages site:
Canterbury Park Card Club 1100 Canturbury Rd., Shakopee, MN 55379, (952) 445-7223 Toll-Free: 1 (800) 340-6361
Shakopee is a Twin Cities suburb.
Good luck,
Paul Talbot
Thank you Talbot. Has anyone played this place, how's the rake and so forth?
map,
The games aren't bad if the jackpot is high people tend to hang around longer with losers or chase more often. I'm not sure of the HE upper limits but there is 10-20, 3-6, 4-8, 6-12. There is some stud also in the same ranges. O8 is spread. It's a nice place but the smoke sucks.
paul
Thanks Paul, I'll check it out. Is the food OK? I visited thier website and they have quite a menu, in my expereince that can mean many things, quite a variety of medicore or shitty food or a great place to grab dinner each night...
Never ate there otherwise Z would be all over me for dietbooks he would recomend.
sorry paul
It's a nice place but the smoke sucks.
Bro, don't you mean the players there suck smoke?
Z let you out of the Binding Dungeon in MT finally. I guess the books will be fine now. I knew he'd let you out on the 4th!!!!
Anyway you write it the bottom line is "Smoking Sucks".
rcp
I played in a limit hold’em tournament last Thursday at Isletta which is at Exit 215 south of Albuquerque and the announcement was made that starting on Sunday the poker room would go non smoking. As an aside I know a few people who follow this forum have been to Isletta and Sandia here in Albuquerque. Both now have new casinos that are quite nice. They’re not as gaudy as the Vegas casinos but the architecture is very stylish Southwestern.
Isletta
The poker room is really starting to get a lot more action. I’m fairly certain that the increased action at Isletta is hurting Sandia somewhat. Isletta has always been the number 2 cardroom here in Albuquerque mainly because it is located about 15 miles south of Albuquerque while Sandia is located right on the northern edge of Albuquerque. Tournaments happen every day except Friday. There is a promotion right now where you accumulate points for how you finish up in the daily tournaments. You get double your points for the month if you play 50 hours in live games for the month. In September a limit hold’em tournament will be conducted where the amount of chips you receive is based on the points you have accumulated. The top prize is $10,000. Isletta also has a VIP card and if you play poker you accumulate $0.60 an hour, which you can use to purchase food, gifts, etc. Also on Tuesday and Thursday seated poker players in the morning can get $0.99 breakfasts. The only problem with the poker room is that I have never seen anything higher than a $4-8 game since the new casino opened. Admittedly I don’t play there except for tournaments so there may be higher action during the evenings. Call if you’re curios.
The new Isletta Casino has three restaurants and a sports bar and yes they now serve alcohol. There is a New Mexican snack bar type restaurant that is actually quite good and if you like New Mexican food you’ll be quite satisfied there. The prices are extremely reasonable. The new casino has a buffet as well for breakfast, lunch and dinner and I’ve heard that it is very good and the prices are definitely reasonable. There is a “gourmet” restaurant as well. The restaurant is quite nice as my wife and I went there one evening. The cuisine is basically American it is very good and very reasonably priced. This restaurant is off not on the casino floor as it is on the third story of a three-story tower.
The new Isletta Casino now has live entertainment as well. Upcoming performers include Wayne Newton, Alan Jackson, Willie Nelson, and The Four Tops among others. There is also valet parking and quite a lot of self-parking. There is an 18-hole golf course across the road from the casino that I haven’t had a chance to play yet so I don’t know the prices. The course is only 2 or 3 years old but when the trees grow some more it looks like it will be quite challenging. The gaming is your standard fair of Bingo hall, Keno parlor, slot machines (lots of them), craps, roulette, 21, Let It Ride, and Caribbean Stud. There is a non smoking slot room, there are hand dealt 2 deck 21 games for a $25 minimum-$500 maximum bet, and 5 times odds on behind the line bets at craps.
The gourmet restaurant is on the third floor of a 3 story tower that is off of the casino floor. It's quiet. I should add that there are plenty of 21 games dealt from a 6 deck shoe for I believe as low as a $2 minimum bet.
Okay all you guys from MT and thereabouts- High Desert Poker Wife said no to any Las Vegas getaway over the Fourth. Even though her 1-5 stud skills are improving, she wanted Jackson, Wy. Needless to say, we will be in Jackson for several days starting the Fourth. Despite the fact we could not schedule in advance, she was able to secure a reservation at a place in Jackson due to a cancellation.
I have some information on the symphony - we will go there one night. Need fishing/golf/outdoor hints. I haven't spent any time there before. My boss goes there a lot, but is no help on the fishing or most outdoor activities. We'd like some relatively easy hikes and National Park tips.
I've spent a few non-fishing weekends there. For a tourist town,I like it. Good restaurants nice galeries. If you like wildlife photography see Thomas Mangelsons(sp?) galery, he's the best I've seen. Fishing info, check one of the many shops. Take a drive along the Tetons.Check out the scene in the world famous Cowboy Bar. Post trip report,enjoy.
im ashamed to admit i havent been there since it was a real cowboy town istead of a rich mans playground. i did fish alot there 25 years ago so my advice is worth what you paid. you can catch some lake trout right below the outflow of the lake(jackson) and some cutts down the river a few miles. also in the nez pierce river there can be some ok fishing. best bet is to go north into yellowstone park and fish for cutts in the river near yellowstone lake or just inside the boundary is lewis lake and that is brown trout country there. or go to dubois and fish the river there (wind river) but may not be good as its too hot now. best river shot is the green down by big piney where there will be good fishing but hard work. not too far out of the way you ought to drive home out yellowstone park and thru west yellowstone and points west. youll see lots of elk and bison up real close and get to foloow the firehole river and the madison for dry fly fishing so so. the bear and wolf park if fun in w. yellowstone but skip the food in town. some people like the ski tram in jackson if thats your cup of tea. have a good trip. beats vegas by a long shot. the hike to heart lake is nice in yellowstone about 100 miles north but its not too short and good chance of seeing a griz.
Grand Teton Nat'l. Park is the most beautiful place in the world. Take a float trip down the Snake (not much white water this time of year I would think), check out the view from the restaurant (good food) at Jackson Lake Lodge. Yellowstone is just north of there. Our car was once surrounded by a herd of buffalo crossing the road; I was scared to death, my kids thought it was the greatest thing they ever saw. Forget about poker and enjoy one of the most spectacular scenic areas you'll ever see. The town of Jackson has a lot of charm too.
Enjoy.
Forgot, Jenny Lake is really nice, close to Jackson Hole. If you do go home thru Yellowstone(good Idea) makes nice side trip. I really enjoyed driving along the Snake and getting out and running around. The scenery here is truly spectacular. There's a little pizza joint next to the Stagecouch Inn thats not too bad. I lived 35 miles from West and Ray's right that the foods marginal, much better in Jackson.
Thanks for all the advice. The route home looks like a good idea. We will spend some time in Yellowstone before going home, but that sounds like a good way to see some more on the way out.
I checked on some fishing guides. I know EdI mentioned some concerns about their proliferation in Montana, but, at the risk of being a total yuppie, etc..., I think a guided 1-day trip may be a good value for the local knowledge and instruction. High Desert Poker Wife has taken some flyfishing lessons, but hasn't quite gotten it. She expressed an interest in going fishing while we're there, and that's way better than shopping, eh? Both of us can go with equipment for her for not much more than the price for 1 person.
My strategy if we see bears is to be near tourists I can outrun who have their lunch on them. If they have pepper spray, the bear will have a tastier meal.
I will post a trip report.
In the last couple weeks I've read the novel "Glue" by Irvine Welsh and watched the movies "Human Traffic" & "Go"(as well as dug up the old Bowie albums "Low"(a collaboration w/Brian Eno) & "Scary Monsters") and have become somewhat interested in techno. A lot of the music in both movies was cool(and some of it sounded familiar) but obv'ly I couldn't tell what was what from the credits, although I did recognize the groups Massive Attack, Chemical Brothers & Fatboy Slim.
Can anyone recommend any good "starter" techno CD's or compilations that feature well known songs, i.e. been excerpted for commercials, sports highlights, movie soundtracks, etc. Are there any other good novels set in rave culture("Glue" is excellent, BTW)? Is the movie "Rave" as bad as the reviews? "Human Traffic" was panned but I really liked it. Isn't one of the big Vegas clubs techo-y?
Don't worry, at age 35 I'm not gonna start hanging around rave clubs making a fool of myself while pulling muscles on the dance floor, trolling for jailbait, sucking on beads, and getting ripped off on fake MDMA.... :)
Start with the arguably the best techno album of all time, "Pretty Hate Machine" by Nine Inch Nails.
Classic.
Adam.
Guy at the record store recommended Moby's "Play" & Underworld's "Dubnobasswithmyheadman". I haven't listened to them all the way thru yet, but I recognized & really like Moby's "South Side" & "Bodyrock".
I've heard all of NIN; like bits and pieces, esp of of "Fragile". Never really considered him techno,though...
NIN is only really techno on that first album, the aforementioned PHM. But techno has come a long way since then, tending to be much less lyrically driven. For bands that fall halfway into the techno category I suggest Trans Am and DJ Shadow.
"Don't worry, at age 35 I'm not gonna start hanging around rave clubs making a fool of myself while pulling muscles on the dance floor, trolling for jailbait, sucking on beads, and getting ripped off on fake MDMA.... :) "++++ llolololololol
whatever, you already have
Hi all, I'll be arriving in Vegas this weekend.
With the Orleans tourneys going on, does that mean that all the action will be there? Will the Bellagio and Mirage be pretty slow?
Should I just stick to the Orleans, or...
if you like to smoke or breath it the orleans is the spot, otherwise go to the other two for good action. pecarino romano is my favorite
The minutes click away like hours, the hours like days and the SPM climbs the walls of Basement Man's abode. Perched like a cat on a tree, ready for an unsuspecting critter to attach, he is a man without mercy. Waiting for someone to come close enough, so he can rip their heart out. A spider passes by on his way to one of his webs and his life is smashed. Needing no motive for his savage attacks, he is a man on edge.
Yes, it's the beginning of day two without a cigarette. Life has become a living hell! With every completed action, he reaches for the pack of cigarettes but they are no long there. He runs to the garbage and dives inside the nasty bags hoping to find a single butt long enough to get JUST ONE MORE DRAG. But, alas he never showed mercy to the cigarettes, he always smoked them to the filter. A chain smoker who had quit for 10 years but started up again last year during a particularly stressful Texas Hold'em game. Now the SPM finds himself at the edge of reason, a fully dysfunctional nicotine addict in search of a single butt.
How is life possible without a cigarette to celebrate the small triumphs of life. At the end of good meal, is not appropriate to enjoy a good cigarette. How can you enjoy a good sit, when taking care of bodily functions, without a cigarette. Driving your car to the casino, thinking of all the chips you will win, is always more enjoyable with a cigarette. The wake up breakfast snack, coffee and a cigarette. The conversation smoke, on the phone, at a party, after an argument, yes a cigarette whenever you want. It's the land of the free, the home of the brave and man was meant to smoke.
Depression, is trade off for not smoking! Who are these weak nosed people who have made smoking politically incorrect. When Christopher discovered America, it was the custom of the natives of the land, to share a smoke with the new invaders of the land. Smoking is an American tradition! Are we as a people so stupid, we have forget our roots.
Oh woo is he, a smokeless, spineless, gutless wonder, who let a women talk him into this ridiculous situation. She has deprived me of the few dollars that would solve this problem. I have lost the keys to my car that could allow me to escape this hell. Is there anyone in cyberspace who can help me? Please send me a butt...
SPM,...afer 24 of the longest hours, he is at the end of his rope...
i CAN REMEMBER VERY CLEARLY---THE FIRST THREE TIMES THAT I STOPPED SMOKING WERE PURE HELL, BUT THINGS GOT BETTER, THE LAST TWO TIMES WERE MUCH EASIER....AND BEST OF ALL i KNOW THAT NEXT TIME IT WILL BE A SNAP!!!!!! Jim
yeah right.....I quit for 5 years,...that was time number 5.that was 3 years ago. (7 months now) .
what are you trying to live to 80 or 90 or something. why dont you want to die young like most of my friends that smoked. two more this month have gotten closed back up and told its over. stick it out or die, thats the choices i see. your in that age brckett you have no fudge room left. good luck.
Death from Smoking
in the R.J. Reynolds Family
by Patrick Reynolds
Posted here courtesy of
TOBACCO CONTROL MAGAZINE
Originaly published Spring, 1995 issue
Patrick Reynolds remembers his father, R.J. Reynolds, Jr., his
aunt, Nancy Reynolds, his brother, R.J. Reynolds III, and others
in this personal memoir of the Reynolds tobacco family.
They died from smoking the family brands.
The phone call came as a sad surprise. It was the secretary of the elderly
Winston-Salem attorney who for several decades had represented my
half-brother Josh, or Richard Joshua Reynolds III, as he sometimes
preferred to be known. The woman, whom I did not know, was calling to
let me know that Josh had passed away the day before, on June 28,
around 4 pm.
Although I knew Josh was deeply and irreversibly ill, I hadn't expected to
lose him so soon. We had been close, and I had wanted to see him one
last time to say goodbye. A deep sadness flooded over me as I hung up
the phone.
It seems incredible, but on that day I was still unaware that my
half-brother died from end-stage emphysema, caused by his lifelong
smoking of the RJR-owned Camel and Winston brands. Josh had told me
about a year before, "Patrick, I have a very serious heart condition. My
doctors say I only have a year or so to live." He said nothing about having
emphysema.
Saddened, I had suspected that his cigarette addiction might have caused
his heart disease, but at that point I did not confirm it by calling his
doctors. Certainly I would not upset my eldest brother by asking him; one
had better not even THINK such thoughts in his presence. So I put the
idea into the far back of my mind.
My half-brother, RJ Reynolds III
The last time I had visited Josh was in January, 1994. It was on a very
sad occasion -- the funeral services of Marie, his wife of 30 years. Also a
longtime smoker, she had died of ovarian cancer. An old friend and ally of
mine, she was the opposite of Josh -- extroverted, with a wide range of
friends, mostly from the inherited-money horse set. A well known
personality on the East coast horseshow circuit, she trained and rode
hunter-jumpers at their estate in Southern Pines, North Carolina.
I found Josh in deep mourning over Marie, gravely ill, hospitalized in
intensive care. He was in the same hospital where Marie had just died,
Good Samaritan in West Palm Beach. Josh was so ill that he was unable
to attend his wife's funeral services. Instead he sent a video crew to the
overflowing church, so that he could later view the proceedings.
My brother had an oxygen tube running from behind both ears under his
nose; at times, he had to wear a full oxygen mask. He was only rarely able
to speak or move; it was an ordeal for him even to lift a fork to his mouth.
On good days he was able to walk 25 feet (7.6 meters) down the hall.
Instead of speaking, he wrote short notes for the stream of visitors from
his wife's funeral services. The unending flow of well wishers that week
left him exhausted.
I extended my stay a week to be near Josh. Even though he couldn't
speak, he conveyed a lot of love and caring to me. As I said goodbye on
my last day with him, he managed to smile warmly and made a hand
gesture indicating everything was OK.
But after that, he never answered my calls or letters, and would not send
word to let me come visit. He remained hospitalized in intensive care for
five months, moving in May to a hospital in Winston-Salem, and finally
moving back to his thoroughbred farm in Southern Pines. He died less
than a month after arriving home, only 60 years old.
Josh's refusal to communicate troubled me, and was a mystery to me. I
remember that he always closely guarded his anonymity and sometimes
had commented to me about his intense dread of publicity. Introverted
and shy, he tended to be reclusive. Most of their friends were drawn to
their home by his extraordinary and charismatic wife. Marie was playful,
positive, and outgoing, and her invitations brought them a regular flow of
houseguests and local friends. While they had no children, they had four
cats and six dogs -- all strays they'd found and adopted, except Marie's
newest favorite, a miniature poodle who had papers. And of course there
were seven magnificent horses down in the stables. Without Marie, I
believe Josh would have lived out his life almost as a hermit, mostly alone
and preferring to shut out the outside world.
Josh and I had never once argued over my smokefree advocacy career.
Years earlier, he had expressed some mild disagreement with my work,
but then had never mentioned his feelings again. As a friendly polk in the
ribs, I would sometimes send him copies of the publicity attendant to one
of my lectures; but I did this infrequently, as I did not wish to provoke
him by sending a new round of clippings each month. My secret hope was
that he would see the light and at least privately agree with me. He never
did. At least he quit smoking in 1992, although we never spoke a word
about it. Once he told me, "I'm glad to see you succeeding in your career,
Patrick, because you're my brother. But I don't agree with what you're
doing. Just keep me out of the press -- do you have any idea how many
people already write me, asking for money? I hate it!" While he lived, I
fully honored his wishes, and protected his privacy. In THE GILDED
LEAF, the family biography I co-authored in 1989, I mentioned only the
bare essentials about him, and he and Marie approved the text about them
prior to the book's publication.
In general, Josh was very benevolent toward me, and we had a warm
friendship. For the past twenty years or so, I had visited he and Marie
about twice a year, often at Christmas or New Year's. So his behavior at
the end of his life puzzled me.
Why did he cut off communication with me? Thanks to the clippings I
occasionally sent, he was very aware that I'm a frequent speaker on
tobacco control before health conferences and universities. Perhaps my
brother was fearful of a media circus if someone leaked to reporters that
R.J. Reynolds was dying from smoking. The truth is I would never have
subjected him to that while he lived. Evidently he didn't trust me, or very
many others for that matter.
In addition, Josh's refusal to let me visit during his last six months must
also have been brought on by his considerable pride -- and deep shame
and anger -- about the products which were killing him. He never did
admit to me that he had emphysema, or that smoking was the cause of his
illness.
* * *
In May, a family member told me which Winston-Salem hospital he was
in, but when I called the hospital, the operator said she was "not permitted
to give out any information as to whether he was a patient there," and that
there was "no listing for that name." Then she -- quite inappropriately, I
thought -- forwarded my call to the hospital's security department. Two
more calls brought the same result. It was obvious that Josh was only
allowing certain visitors to get through. This hurt my feelings, because I
thought we had been very close. A few other family members I spoke to
feltshut out as well.
Clearly he was very ill; it could be he simply didn't want to see anyone
except his two best friends, Tommy and Burr, who literally lived in his
hospital room in 12 hour shifts. Josh did not even spend much time with
his wife in her last months, even though they lay dying in the same Palm
Beach hospital.
"I don't want him to see me like this," she said; and I think he felt the
same way. A brief and final exception to this came inlate 1993. Marie,
attended by their old friend Tommy Walters, had for several months been
trying alternative therapy cancer clinics - first a costly experimental
program at UCLA, then in Mexico, and finally in the Bahamas, while Josh
remained at home in North Carolina. But when he got word that her most
recent cure wasn't working, no longer able to bear their separation, Josh
chartered a lear jet to visit her in Grand Bahama. He then had the jet bring
them both to the hospital in Palm Beach, where he too checked in. After
years of saving on gas bills by not heating the cavernous living room at
their farm in North Carolina, and after years of being terrified to fly, he
must have known the end was near.
* * *
Aunt Nancy
The past was repeating itself. Our father's sister, Nancy Reynolds Bagley
Verney, also a child of founding patriarch R.J. Reynolds, died from
smoking in early 1985. Aunt Nancy had had one lung removed due to lung
cancer, and died from emphysema in the other lung. The story completely
escaped notice by the press, as it would have with Josh. Shortly before
her death, Town and Country magazine named her as one of the ten most
generous living Americans.
I remember the last time I saw her. It was in summer of 1984. I used to
take the train up to Greenwich during stops in New York to spend the day
visiting her; usually she would drive to the station herself to pick me up.
She had a large estate in Bel Haven, Quarry Farm. Diana Ross had
purchased her enormous mansion on the sprawling grounds, and Aunt
Nancy had remodeled the former gardener's home a quarter mile away
(400 m)on the property and moved into it.
She didn't meet my train this time, but instead sent her secretary. When I
saw her, I noticed she had an oxygen bottle in tow, but of course avoided
calling attention to it. In the past, she had loved to take me on speedy golf
cart rides down paths around her wooded grounds; she loved to pause and
point out the different wildflowers, by name. She was an avid devotee of
the relatively new science of ecology, whose first studies had been funded
by my father in the late 50's. The famous study "The Ecology of a Salt
Marsh" was credited with spearheading the modern ecology movement; it
was conducted on his favorite estate, Sapelo Island,off the Georgia coast.
Today there would be no golf cart ride. Diana Ross, who was out for a
walk with a male friend, dropped by unexpectedly, and we all had an
amiable chat. After they left, Aunt Nancy felt like going out for lunch. As
we slowly ascended the few steps to the front door of the Greenwich
Yacht Club, I remember what an ordeal every step was for her. After
each step, she stopped, out of breath, and uttered a loud, guttural moan,
as though attempting to clear her lungs. After that, she had to rest almost a
minute before taking the next step. Finally we made it inside.
By then, she had quit smoking, but I was still a smoker. As I dragged on a
Winston after lunch, she asked me, "When do you think you'll quit
smoking, Patrick?"
"Soon," I replied. "It's a pretty tough one for me. I've tried so many
times." She nodded none too sympathetically and then changed the
subject.
About six months later, in January, 1985, she passed away; I would quit
my own smoking habit in March, and first speak out against smoking the
following year, in July of 1986.
* * *
My father, RJ Reynolds Jr.
R.J. Reynolds Jr., my father, died emphysema in December of
1964.Evidently no journalist thought of it as a news story or investigated
matters beyond the usual biographical obituaries for a man of his stature.
Naturally, no family member called attention to the actual cause.
My father began smoking Camels as a teenager in the 1920's. Tobacco
and alcohol went hand in hand for the gilded youth of the age of F.Scott
Fitzgerald. By day, he financed Broadway shows from his too generous
$50,000 per year allowance and obsessively flew the latest bi-planes; and
by night, he squired showgirls into posh speakeasys, where he hung out
with the notables of New York's cafe society. Having a Camel in his hand
came as naturally as drinking gin and tonics; and besides, wasn't it what
people expected of R.J. Reynolds, Jr.?
But he didn't do what some back home in North Carolina expected of
him. He only worked at the R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Company briefly as a
boy, on the factory floor at a cigarette machine. In those days, around
1918, R.J. Jr. was under the supervision of R.J.'s younger brother, Uncle
Will, who did his best to rear the unruly young heirs after R.J. passed on.
Later, in the 1940's, after much resistance from those running the
company, R.J. Jr. would serve on RJR's Board of Directors for a short
period. After that he resumed his career of yacht racing, politics,
andfinancing airlines. Probably due to his youthful fascination with flying,
he was in succession the principal financier and stockholder of Piedmont,
Eastern and Delta airlines.
The death of his younger brother Smith in 1932 brought my father's
playboy period to an abrupt halt; R.J. Jr. would marry within two months
after returning home for Smith's funeral. He got word of Smith's death
while chained to a tree on the African coastline; this was his way of
detoxifying after a drinking binge during a trip on a tramp freighter he'd
converted to a yacht. He entered Democratic politics, and was easily
elected Mayor of Winston Salem. Later he was appointed Treasurer of the
Democratic Party, and made contributions credited with electing two
Presidents -- Roosevelt and then Truman. Toward the end of his life, he
would turn his attention to philanthropy.
No descendant of founder R.J. Reynolds devoted their career to working
in the company; only Aunt Nancy's son Smith Bagley worked there for a
time, but did not rise to a top position, and soon left. Just one second
cousin has worked for the company.
The explanation for this is simple: founder R.J. was so busy building his
empire in the late 1800's that he neglected to marryuntil 1905, at age 55.
His late marriage had the consequence thathe failed to mentor, teach and
guide his children into the familybusiness; he died at 67, when his eldest,
my father, was only 12.Left with a huge allowance and a $28 million
inheritance which he would receive at 28, RJ Jr, as a youth, had little
motivation to work; nor did yunger siblings Smith, Mary or Nancy.
The elder R.J. did take pleasure, however, in mentoring and teaching his
nephew,Richard Samuel (RS) Reynolds, who was old enough at the time
to benefit. RS left the company when R.J.'s first son was born and then
went directly on to found Reynolds Aluminum.
* * *
My mother, second of my father's four wives, loved to tell the story of
how she took up smoking in 1944. She thought it would please my father,
but when R.J. Jr. first saw her smoking, he said, "That's a dirty, filthy,
disgusting habit.Put that cigarette out right now!" But she was addicted
and continued to smoke, as did my father. In the late sixties and seventies,
she would urge me to quit smoking, but I continued until 1985.
By 1960 R.J. Jr. had been diagnosed with emphysema. He promised his
last wife, Anne Marie ,that he would quit. At the time he was living on his
magnificent 36 square mile (93 km) private island estate estate, Sapelo, off
the Georgia coast, today an ecological preserve owned by the state. When
Annemarie discovered that he was bribing a "loyal" servant to slip him
cigarettes, she summarily fired the entire household staff of over two
decades.
Like his son Josh, during his last six months our father spurned all visitors
and contact with the outside world. He even refused to see his own sons;
His son John, who travelled to the village in Switzerland where RJ Jr died,
was turned away at his door. The other sons had no address or telephone
number for him, except an office number in London. When Father died, I
was newly 16, the youngest of his six sons; I hardly knew him, as I only
able to visit him on five occasions, between the age of 9 and 12. The day
after R.J. Jr died, his only daughter, Irene, was born to Annemarie in
Switzerland.
* * *
Tragically and ironically, the Reynolds family history is full of smoking
caused deaths. To summarize, my grandfather, founding patriarch R.J.
Reynolds, had had four children, all of whom smoked.Of these, two
definitely died from smoking -- first R.J. Jr., and then Nancy. A third,
Mary, died of stomach cancer in her 40's, which may have been linked to
her cigarette smoking.* (The fourth, Smith, died at 21 in a sensational
scandal of the early 1930's: Smith's older wife, torch singer Libby
Holman, whom he met while carousing with my father in New York, was
indicted for his murder but was later acquitted. It was never proved
whether Smith's death was murder or suicide).
So half of R.J. Reynolds' children definitely died from the product that he
was instrumental in popularizing. And the patriarch himself died in 1918 at
67, from cancer of the pancreas, which may have been caused by his
addiction chewing tobacco. Ironically, ironically the product which made
his parents and grandparents into prosperous, landed farmers, and "plug"
was the foundation on which R.J.'s own empire was initially built.
* * *
Of my father's four wives, the first three smoked. The first, Blitz, who
was from an aristocratic Winston-Salem family, died in 1961, at age 52, of
colon cancer; her death may have been smoking-related. They had four
sons; the eldest was Josh. My fathers second wife, Marianne, who was
my mother, was a beautiful movie starlet under contract to Warner
Brothers in the 1940's. She had two sons (Michael is my full brother). She
too smoked, which probably hastened her death in 1985 from a "stomach
aneurysm".My father's third wife, Muriel, had no children, and died from
smoking-caused lung cancer in 1980. Annemarie, his forth wife and
widow, never smoked and is in good health. She and my sister Irene live
in Switzerland. In the third generation, my eldest brother Josh's death was
caused by smoking. Josh's full brother Will, a pipe smoker, living in
Winston-Salem now has emphysema; and my brother Mike still smokes
and has beginning emphysema. Josh's wife Marie smoked, and died of
ovarian cancer .
Aunt Nancy's daughter, Jane, died the 1988 from lung cancer caused by
her cigarette addiction.(I was unable to obtain information on the
descendants of my Uncle Smith).
* * *
Today cigarettes are causing about one death out of every five deaths in
the U.S. I'm convinced that the Reynoldses are far from the only family
with an the unspoken protocol at funerals of avoiding mention that
tobacco addiction caused the beloved one's death. Even obituaries for the
famous often omit this. Talking about it is seen as somehow disrespectful,
shaming to the memory of the deceased, and prodding an already open
family wound. The overwhelming fact of the loss towers in importance
over whatever its cause may have been. Give the dead their peace, and let
the living heal. All of this goes without saying. I heartily applaud the new
laws passed by some states which require doctors to note on death
certificates if smoking caused the death.
* * *
When I flew to Palm Beach in early July for Josh's burial services, no one
mentioned that he had died from smoking. And no one alerted the press.
So, as with Aunt Nancy, and as with our father's passing from
emphysema, the fact that cigarettes caused R.J. Reynolds III's death
would have gone completely unnoticed. It would have continued what was
already a family tradition.
In the days following Josh's death, still grieving, I considered whether to
make the story public. Who among our family, I wondered to myself,
would be offended? Newly widowed, Josh had no children, and his
mother and grandparents had died many years earlier. Probably his and
Marie's friends from the horse circuit would not mind so much.
Only his two best friends, Tommy Walters and Burr Collier, might be
disturbed. They had tended Josh day and night for six months; and before
that they looked after Marie for a full year. Josh's brother Will might care,
but then Will had not been close to any of his brothers in recent years.
Neither Josh nor I had ever been close to our tobacco cousins, who didn't
much care for the multi-generational family history I co-authored in THE
GILDED LEAF.
I knew that my full sibling, Mike, to whom I am even closer than I was to
Josh, would fully support my telling the press that our eldest brother had
died from smoking-caused emphysema. Mike, a lifelong smoker, now has
emphysema at an early stage himself. But I believe that nagging loved
ones backfires and keeps them smoking, and so I briefly mention it to him
only on occasion.
All of this considered, I made the decision to take the story public. I
reached Josh's doctor at Good Samaritan Hospital in Palm Beach; he
confirmed that Josh had died of end stage emphysema, caused by
smoking. With his permission, I listed his name and number on the press
release, so reporters could contact him directly. Interestingly, Josh's doctor
at the Winston-Salem hospital would not comment, but told me, "I'm
under constraints here. I Hope you understand."
When I finally made the announcement on 12 June , two weeks after
Josh's death, the story was carried in major print and broadcast media
around the world. The journalist from the New York Times was
incredulous. "How could this go unnoticed for two weeks?," He asked.
"Why didn't we get the news right away?" I explained that I wanted time
to think and grieve, and hadn't wanted television crews climbing around
during my brother's funeral.
For the first time, the the role of somoking in causing the death of an R.J.
Reynolds family member became public knowledge around the time of
death. It was high time.
* * *
In his will, Josh left everything, about $10 million, to a new foundation in
Winston Salem, the Josh and Marie Reynolds Foundation. He left nothing
to any of his family and only token amounts to his closest friends and
long- time servants. Sadly, he may have felt like he hadn't accomplished
much during his life; his primary pursuits had been reading, especially the
work of alternative thinkers who delved into the metaphysical and psychic
realms. He also wrote some wonderful poetry, which he published near
the end of his life.
Creating this new foundation was very important to Josh; my hope is that
it will do a great deal of good. Unfortunately it will be run largely by his
executor, the venerable Winston-Salem attorney Norwood Robinson, and
his son Mike. My guess is that they will not look too kindly on tobacco
control grant applications, even though the foundation is empowered to
make grants to any cause the board decides on. Some in Winston-Salem,
or "Cigarette City" as the locals sometimes call it, are not at all supportive
of our work.
* * *
My father left his children a minimal amounts of money because he
wanted us to work. Most of Josh's estate came from his wealthy mother,
Blitz. R.J. Jr. never imagined that as a grown man I'd go against the family
business - but I'm sure that these days he and grandfather R.J. are
strongly rooting for me from on high. They never knew the full extent of
the harm that would be caused by the products made by R.J. Reynolds
Tobacco.
* * *
According to one recent study, of the two billion smokers now in the
developing world, fully 200 million are expected to die from smoking. I'm
now looking for major donors to fund my group in Los Angeles, The
Foundation for a Smokefree America, to allow me to go on a speaking
tour of one or more developing countries. If I do, I hope media coverage
of the tour will bring the message about smoking to hundreds of millions
of people. I love this work, I'm dedicated to it, and will continue fighting
tobacco use for the rest of my life.
Ray Zee's second post should help in this regard. Picture YOURSELF pulling a 50 pound green wheeled oxygen bottle behind you wherever you go.
I smoked as a kid, _Pall Malls_ I filched from my folks. I remember when _Hit Parade_, the TV show started their own brand. They mailed two packs to everyone in my neighborhood. There I was, maybe ten years old, robbing the US Mail from my neighbors' boxes. I became a regular purchaser at thirteen, smoking _Camels_ on sunny days, and _Lucky Strikes_ on rainy ones. (It made some sort of sense at the time, although now I can't remember why.) I remember _Spuds_, the first menthol cigarette I'd encountered. I remember _Vanguard_ named for the rocket series and which matched its success.
I struggled through high school with this addiction, knowing it diminished my already compromised prospects as an athlete. In the Army I paid $.14 per pack, half what smokers now pay for a cigarette. I couldn't resist.
Intellectually, I wanted to stop. I did twice in the 70s, once for two years and once for three. Both times I purloined a red _Marboro_ during a drinking spree and, BAM, instant readdiction.
Finally ten years ago, I had the flu so bad I couldn't breath. Ten days later I breathed fine, and THE URGE WAS GONE!! My last cigarette was October 15, 1991 and I pray it stays that way.
So, work on those ugly thoughts, and don't miss a chance to infect yourself with communicable virus. Consider a support group. Do whatever it takes.
Smoking: lung disease as a hobby.
Good luck to you.
Jake
SPM,
I kicked a 1.5 pack a day Marlb Red habit two years ago this October. Cold turkey. One of the worst weeks of my life but it gave me a new lease. Healthfulness is the reward but it doesn't come cheap.
Take a page from AA (leave the God out of it, if you're me)--one day at a time. Work on getting through breakfast first, then lunch, then smoke break, etc. etc. Repeat. Repeat...Make it a battle of wills between you and the tobacco giants. You have to want to win though because your addiction is a tough opponent. You are strong enough to do it. You will be victorious and you and your loved ones will be much better off.
Best of luck in one of the hardest games out there.
KJS
SPM,
I remember when you used to be smoke free - I also remember when you were a resident in Any Two Card Town. Now that you have a large house in the Valley Of Patience, I know you have it in you to become healthy and free of smoking once again. I have faith in you my friend and if there is anything I can do to help, please let me know. Good luck and I will keep you in my prayers.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
I am wondering specifically about 20/40, 30/60, and 40/80 players, who always seem to be (in the joint) playing, whenever I show-up (about 5 times a month). Since, I am not there all the time, I am wondering what kinds of hours those players, play, per week? Handle the question, as best you can. I know there is nothing definite on this. But, I'm asking because there is one person, whom I have never seen COMING, NOR LEAVING. He is virtually, ALWAYS PLAYING CARDS (75/150). Just curious.
You'll find the answers to your questions on pages 135 through 151 of, "International Casino Furnishings and Accessories." This wonderful catalog is chock full of delightful Casino and poker specific merchandise. Their products range from the basic, "Poker Bob's Easy-Stack Chips", through the exotic, "Bacarat Bruno's Not-So-Easy-Stack[but they've got gold curlicues on the front so what the hell] Chips." (These only come in denominations of $5000.00 and up)
On the afore mentioned pages, you'll find yourself in the center of the ICFA catalog's Furniture section. Here, along with the "Ajax (the Poker Table of the Gods)" and the "Mercury (Chip Rack of Some Other Gods)", you'll find your answer.
What you are probably looking at is the "Retirement Geezer" line being placed on the floor in conjunction with the recently released "Trust Fund Pro (Don't Drive a Porsche Without One)"
What you've been witnessing are not, in fact, fellow poker players, but fixtures of the casino. Much like the tables or the dispensers for paper toilet seat covers. (pg. 341 ICFA catalog "Ass Gaskets (Even when you've lost a load, don't dump one without Ass Gasket's finest.)"
The thing to remember about the Retirement Geezer and the Trust-Fund Pro is that, while state of the art, they are essentially animatronics assembled in a small shop in south Belize City. Because of this, they can't be moved around a great deal and in fact, excessive movement will void their warranty.
So next time you walk in to the card room and see the same old players in the same old seats, you too can play happy knowing that your card room management has furnished the room with the finest poker equipment available today.
Curious,
Since no one gave you a serious answer, I'll try...
Yes, I am capable of a serious answer.
When I played for a living I averaged somewhere between 60 and 70 hours per week. It was probably a bit much, but I know guys that play this amount and maybe a little more. My problem was I didn't take days off... If I had picked one day per week and said, I won't play on Sunday, I would have been much fresher for the rest of the week.
Hope this helps.
Just another egg
I AM YOUR WORST NIGHTMARE. Just keep waiting on those Aces. That's all I want you to do, just stay on your game. Thanks in advance, for the CASH.
...more importantly, what did you do with Bert?
Wow, thanks for the advice! I suddenly see the light!
So, what are you saying here. You think tight players are suckers, and you make money from them. So you now want all of those tight players to become loose so that you can't beat them anymore - is that it?
I can't tell you how many times I've seen maniacs berate tight players. Why would they do this? These are the same maniacs that will shoot every angle in the book. They try to work people up and get them on tilt.
And then they go and berate tight players. Now, might this be because tight players actually have the winning recipe and the maniacs want them to lose more?
Or is it because the maniacs want to exploit every cheap trick in the book, but for some reason want to take the tight players under their wing and make them better players?
PS Thanks for all the chips pal!
-SmoothB-
Welcome back, SmoothB!
Lots of posters gave up on you awhile back, but I am glad you have changed your heart and decided to be active on this forum.
Ivan
I'm jumping in a pick-up tonight and heading to Vegas for five days with a couple friends. I'll be playing 10-20 and 15-30 and some tourneys (Mirage and Bellagio)barring a first day nigthmare (in which case you can find me in a seedy bar).
I'll probably be wearing a ball cap that says "Big Ten Conference" on it. Say hi if you see me.
Paul Talbot
So there I was having dinner tonight with Mason at the restaurant at Commerce. The last person I'd been in there with was "small caps" scott, a week ago. Fortunately this time I didn't have to worry about my associate being carded. Scott is always an added stressor that way. But then I got to wondering - where were *was scott? He plays there everyday now, knew he had the chance to meet the Godfather, partner to El Supremo and the Zee-thing, but was a no-show. Kids today. Even stranger was the puzzle of Andy Fox who posts here, plays there, posted about seeing Mason there from a distance yesterday, whom I'll bet dollars to donuts was there watching everything today, but whom I have yet to meet. I know these other LA players exist. I know scott exists. I know Rick Nebiolo exists, since he springs out at me from out of nowhere from time to time. Big John appears from above. But I'm thinking Andy may just be an illusion. Hmmm. BTW, I think Mason may be looking for someone to back at Stud. He was testing the waiters on their memory for numbers. ("Number 243 please.") Unfortunately they failed. Anyone trying to build a bankroll?
John,
I ran into scott on Sunday and he thought that was the night you two were going to have dinner. We were both hoping for table scraps after you finished.
Anyway, I took Monday off and played Hollywood today. Hope to see you soon.
Regards,
Rick
Is "small caps" scott still playing $3-6, or has he moved up?
He moved up to 15/30 and 20/40 and appears to be doing well.
how long did it take for him to move up?
x
"BTW, I think Mason may be looking for someone to back at Stud."
Didn't Vince say he was looking for a backer to play in $500/$1000 limit or something like that? If I recall, Vince also promised to play his best and said he didn't want any of the win, he just wanted to play for the thrill of playing.
I doubt any backer could pass up such a sweet deal. I'm sure Vince will be hearing from Mason soon.
So what's a guy gotta do to get a dinner out of you? I've already let you steal several of my blinds.
Same with Rick. He posts about having cocktails with other posters, but to me he says things like "I'll talk to you later."
And shouldn't he be lower case scott? There's no such thing as 'small caps'.
Lastly, I don't think of Mason as the Godfather. More like the Enforcer.
So what you're saying is Rick should buy us dinner? Yeah, that sounds right to me. Dinner on Rick first chance we get! And, you know, I think Rick is responsible for the "small caps" name too. I guess scott will be there for dinner too, Rick.
Enforcer, eh? Just how many posts have *you had "moderated" Brett?
.
Well,I am not an illusion but I appreciate the allusion. I did indeed notice Mason there on Monday but frankly, I felt embarrassed about walking up to him while he was in a game and saying anything. I'm definitely an introvert. I was indeed there briefly on Tuesday (you win the donuts), did not see Mason. (I was in seat #1 in the main 30-60 game: slender,bald guy with a gray beard.)
Any time you're there, ask small Joe the floorman (not big,bad, bald Joe) to show you who Andy is, or ask big, bad, bald Joe to point out AF (I'm not sure he knows my name). I'd be delighted and honored to meet you.
Then will you buy dinner?
I'm always willing to buy dinner, especially if its with The Godfather and his consigliere Mr. Feeney. It's simply an offer I can't refuse.
Okay, I think I'll go with the Bankok Bay dish. Wadda you guys having?
"I think Mason may be looking for someone to back at Stud"
I'm the guy. I'm probably the best mid limit stud player in the world.
vince
Vince:
I'm sorry but they only play stud on the East Coast. I always like to be present when I'm backing someone and a trip back East just isn't possible for me right now. Perhaps sometime in the future.
Mason
Chicken!
Vince
Dang Vince, I had you soooo close to sitting in Larry Flynt's 2000-4000 stud game. Maybe next time.... :::sigh:::
Thanks Buddy! Mason doesn't know a good thing when it's sitting on his plate. For the life of me I don't understand how he got Charmaine. David must have introduced them.
vince
Now that would be interesting. Vince would be the only one in the game NOT playing with Larry's money.
"Whaddya got?"~Larry Flynt, after raising the river and being called.
Vince,
As usual, you're much too modest. Maybe John Feeney can help with that self-image thing.
John
"As usual, you're much too modest"
As you can see, John, I hate bragging in front of a crowd.
Vince
John,
I thought you were going to write about Vince. There I go--stereotyping again. But at least I know Vince exists--or at least I know Vince did exist (haven't seem him for awhile). And I know Rick Nebiolo exists because he's from the Right coast. Maybe next week Rick will meet the Godfather I thought you were going to write about--the best mid-limit stud player in the world.
John
Well, Vince, being the master strategist he is, managed to get himself into the thread anyway. As for you, bud, you're another one whose existence is debatable - from my point of reference. Ya know? So go on existing, if you do. But don't make too damn much of it. Or something.
John Cole exists! Just ask Mary.
vince
Well I know Mary exists because she once appeared to me in the condensation on the outside of a beer mug.
Jon Feeney said: "Well I know Mary exists"
Vince's reply:
O.K. So using similar logic to that used by Tom Haley concerning the Kennedy assassination one must, through perpertration, accept that deductable logical ramifications point toward undespicable infermentation of the very unlikeablehoodness that John Cole's existentational beingness is certimungo. Are we cruising together, o doubting Thomas one?
Vince.
Okay, Vince, either you or Paul ("The One to the Right") Feeney does not exist.
John,
I can vouch for Vince, but I'm not too sure about Paul. Of course, in my old days, I subscribed to phenomonology and eschewed existentialism, so I'll grant the presence of other minds, including Paul's. Besides, no dewy apparitions have crossed my path in quite some time. Alas, such, such were the days!
John
"Alas, such, such were the days! "
Yes, those were the days, my friend
I thought they'd never end
Those were the days when whiskey was a quarter
John Feeney was a boy played with his little toy
Those were the days oh yes those were the days.
Those were the days my friend
"dewy aparitions" and no money to spend
Those were the days when cauliflower became an ear
Paul Feeney ate a frog got bitten by a dog
Those were the days, oh yesss those were the days.
Vince
Arriving in Vegas in a few days.
Where can I get weed there?
Interested in about 1/8 oz for personal use.
What is the going rate there?
Just go off the strip a few miles and find a lot that is undeveloped. There usually are plenty of weeds to be found. - Rick
PS When it is windy you might even find some tumbleweeds. They look pretty neat.
x
Ask the pit boss for a comp. Tell him you want your RFBW (Room, Food, Beverage, Weed) comped.
Dude, why don't you bring your own weed? I don't think a pocket-ful of grass will set off the metal detectors. Unless you're coming in from out of the country.
I've never used the stuff. I get high on life.
(That's crap. I get high on GAMBLING!)
Bobby
Just remember that one of the famous nevada landmarks advertises some of the stiffest penalties for possession of grass in the country. I think its 5 years, no parole, for simple possession (less than 1oz) but dont quote me on that
Hi, going to Commerce next week. I will rent a car and like to know what else i can do there besides of poker.I will stay a week and if anybody want to say hello...i,m the crazy german with that Yellow-Nike-cap. D'ont give me a hard time again :-)
Knut,
Next Friday night (July 13) Big John Hartzell (former poster and super nice and funny guy) is hosting a small no limit game (I think 1-2 blinds) with other activities at the Commerce. I'll post more when I find out details.
Regards,
Rick
PS I can't make it as I am going back East to visit family.
There isn't much to do around the Commerce. The Bike is about 10 minutes away. About 20 minutes south is Disneyland and Knott's Berry Farm. The ocean is about 30 minutes west. If you want a scenic drive, take the PCH to Santa Barbara.
x
.,.,.,.
Not much else to say.
Well the autopsy provides the best evidence of where the bullets were fired from. This brain is especially useful in this case because of the head shot wounds. There are many problems with the autopsy of JFK, however.
1) The doctors who performed the autopsy had practically no experience in performing autopsys.
2) The original notes of the autopsy were destroyed on immediately after the autopsy was done and rewritten. This action cast a long shadow on the autopsy.
3) The doctors at Parland hospital in Dallas who treated Kennedy to a man stated that the wound in the throat was an entry wound. Remember the Dallas doctors were experienced emergency room doctors who had witnessed many gunshot wounds previously. The Dallas doctors performed a tracheotomy on the throat wound which opened up the wound a lot. The doctors at Bethesda determined that the throat wound was an exit wound.
4) The brain of JFK mysteriously disappeared from the National Archives. If this piece of evidence was available it would tell us a lot about the trajectory of the fatal head shot wound. It's been missing since the mid 60's.
The single bullet theory doesn't hold up, the govt explanation given for Ruby shooting Oswald is ludicrous, and a lot of other things too numerous to mention that just don't add up to the conclusion reached in the Warren Report. Many feel the mob had something to do with it which probably is true but I don't think they could mastermind the assassanation. I realize that the anti-conspiracy camp has many good points as well so I guess we'll just never know. I'm fairly certain that Oswald would not have been convicted of this murder today given the evidence against him.
Just a stray thought. After all the Soviets probably weren't too thrilled with how the Cuban missile crisis turned out and it was Kennedy who backed them down. Didn't Oswald reportedly have Soviet ties of some sort?
Yeah he defected to the Soviet Union renouncing his citizenship after being trained in speaking the Russian language by the US Military. He was allowed to return to the US no strings attached with a Russian wife. US personnel that received Russian language training such as Oswald received got it as part of their spy training against the Soviets. This has given rise to much speculation that Oswald was actually a CIA agent. The conspiracy theororists claim that Oswald was a patsy set up to look like a communist sympathizer, when he actually wasn't, by right wing organizations that wanted Kennedy eliminated.
M,
The Soviets realized fairly quickly that Oswald had little information that could be of use to them.
John
John,
I don't know much at all about this case and I suspect that it would me a multi-year project to really get to the bottom of it, assuming that might be possible. The factual info. you and Tom Haley have provided is appreciated.
I simply don't see why the all the conspiracy theories I've heard seem to focus much more on the CIA than on the KGB. From an ignorant point of view (mine), it would appear at least as likely that the Kremlin might have been more eager to see Kennedy dead than the CIA. Actually I don't completely understand why all the conspiracy theories I've heard don't seem to address the possibility that the mysterious "other shots" might have been fired by Soviet assasins (not Oswald) and that the primary "culprits" might have been be the Soviet leadership and the KGB. The gist of the theories I've heard seems to be that the CIA was involved, perhaps the Mafia was involved, and some right-wingers were perhaps behind it a bit.
What about the idea that maybe the Kremlin just wanted Kennedy dead and pulled off a very high-level assasination? Certainly less notable persons have been assasinated by foreign intelligence services. Oswald with his complexities, quirks and relations may have just turned out to be a convenient obscuring device and scapegoat.
M,
I'm not a conspiracy buff, and, unlike other responders, I think Oswald acted alone. Hell, he doesn't even make for a good scapegoat given his very unstable psyche. Yet, the myth persists--and always will. The Kennedy assasination, and its attendant theories, says more about our post-war collective unconscious than, perhaps, any single event. Along with the sinking of the Titanic, the Kennedy assasination "conspiracy" is one of the great myths of the 20th century. Like any good myth, it contains much truth--although that "truth" never is encumbered with fact.
John
Oh, you believe in the magic bullt? I have some good mountain property in the Florida Keys if you are interested..... Fools that believe whatever the media tell them have lead this country to a point where Bill Clinton was impeached for blow jobs, but Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush walk in Iran/Contra. All they did in Iran Country is completely subvert the constitution of the United States. George W. Bush and his brother commit election fraud, and nothing happens.
Sometimes I wish that I was born with a mind as dull as yours. Any person that reads the Warren report, (I know it is 26 volumes, and you probably got bored on page 1)cannot possibly believe in the veracity of the report.
I bet that you believe that Hoover wasn't gay, that the mafia doesn't exist(after all Hoover said they didn't for 30 years), that Microsoft never cheats, and that Jesus is coming, too.
Roger,
If you want to disagree with John, disagree. But you show what kind of person you are with the personal attacks on one of the best and brightest people that posts on this forum.
Regards,
Rick
He isn't very bright in what he says in this thread. Its a matter of reading the documents himself(which he obviously hasn't done.)He then goes on to insult very rational, informed people. I guess you call unsubtantiated slander "the best and the brightest", what a Kennedyesque term to use. Tell your opinionated, uninformed friend to change his approach before you accuse me of insolence.
Roger,
Pardon me, but I don't recall insulting anyone. If you want to believe in a conspiracy, then, fine; you have my permission to do so.
John
Its clear that you still don't mention one piece of evidence from the Warren report. If you wish to continue to say that eggs are green, then you have Dr.Suess's permission to do so.
Well, of course the CIA did it. Kennedy was a communist. He deserved it if my Cuban(God fearing Republicans, by the way)friends were telling the truth.
Immediately after the Warren Commission was convened they began working on the premise that there were three separate shots 2 that hit JFK and one that hit Connally. The first shot was supposed to have hit JFK, the second Connally, and the third JFK. The Zapruder film established a certain time frame for the shooting. This established a reasonable scenario for the shooting even though Connally held stead fast that he was struck by the first bullet. A problem with this scenario arose. A man named James Tague was struck by a chipped piece of cement from a gunshot during the assassination. Originally the commission tried to ignore the fact about Tague but they couldn't because it happened and was documented with a photograph and an interview. Ok why not 4 bullets then? Because if there were 4 bullets they could not have been fired by the rifle that had been traced to Oswald because the time frame established by the Zapruder film didn't allow for 4 bullets to be shot by that rifle. If you say there were 4 shots fired there had to be at least one other shooter. This presented a problem for the Warren Commision and their lone assassin premise. Alen Spector a lawyer working for the Commission and now a US Senator came up with the single bullet theory. This theory was adopted by the Warren Commission as the official version of what happened and it goes something like this:
1. The first shot hit both Kennedy and Connally. For this to have happened the bullet would have to hit Kennedy in the back; take a 60 degree angle UPTURN exiting JFK in the throat; traveld through Connally's shoulder and wrist; and taken another 60 degree angle to the left landing in Connally's leg. Also the bullet would have had to remain nearly pristine as the Warren Commission used the nearly pristine bullet recovered to account for these wounds. Needless to say many shooting tests after the assassination were unable to duplicate the shooting feat nor did the bullet end up in such a condition after the tests. To summarize this bullet would have had to have to penetrate two men, cause seven wounds, shattering a rib, shattering a wrist bone, and end up unscathed.
2. The second bullet missed and chipped the curb that hit Tague.
3. The third bullet killed the president.
If one doesn't accept this theory then there had to be at least one other shooter. It was this theory purported by the Warren Commission that started the controversy that lives on to this day. I understand that keeping a conspiracy silent that would have had to involve so many people seems unlikely. As time has come to pass I think it's fair to say that the Warren Commission conducted a very poor investigation of the assassination. Immediately after the assassination there were several calls for an investigation from Congress. LBJ headed these off at the pass by convening the Warren Commission with the esteemed Earl Warren as the head man. LBJ put a lot of pressure on the commission to produce a report and in actuality they had little freedom to conduct a widespread investigation gathering evidence regarding other scenarios. In the mid 70's a House of Representatives committee conducted an investigation into the assassination of JFK, RFK, and Martin Luther King. The committee produced evidence that there was at least one other bullet was fired in the JFK assassination although they concluded that Oswald was guilty. I'm sorry but I just don't buy the single bullet theory and if you don't subscribe to it you must subscribe to the notion that there was another shooter. I haven't read anything that claims that 4 shots could have been fired by Oswald in the time frame established by the Zapruder film, not even the Warren Commission.
Skeptic! Why won't any of you "Oliver Stone" types accept the truth? There are such things as "magic bullets" and the tooth fairy.
Seriously, though, I believe Oswald acted alone.
vince
I'm sorry I can't endorse the single bullet theory like you do. If you believe Oswald acted alone then necessarily you must endorse the single bullet theory.
Tom,
You're usually much more logical than this. This is simply not an either/or question, and some experts have established ways in and by which three bullets were sufficient. Of course, for years sceptics questioned whether Oswald could have fired three bullets in the given time, but that feat has been duplicated--as you know.
For me, though, the real allure of the Kennedy assasination lies in the ways in which it continues to feed the imaginations of experts, skeptics, conspiracy buffs, and writers. If you haven't read it yet, Don Delillo's Libra is a must read.
John
That feat has not been duplicated. You quote none of the known evidence. You simply say experts say. No credible experts say anything close to the dribble that comes out of your keyboard.
"That feat has not been duplicated."
Wrong. Not only has it been duplicated it has been done by an independent (of the government) investigating team. You have a bad mouth. You might do yourself a favor and listen to more of that so called "dribble" from John Cole's keyboard. He unquestionably has a great deal of credibility on this forum. Unlike some unknown "Jolly" Roger that I could mention.
Vince
OK it is just a speculation, but since the CIA may have tried and failed to assassinate Castro, and other attempts had been made on Castro's life, I would guess that Castro might have been wondering just how to prevent another such attempt. One solution he might have arrived at with his Soviet advisers may have been to do the same thing to the U.S. President. This would, if successful, undoubtedly throw the U.S. into such a state of uproar and confusion that the ensuing chaos would probably divert the U.S. from any further attempts on Castro's life for a while. The Kremlin would probably be happy that the staunch defender Kennedy who backed them down in the missile crisis was gone, and Castro might breathe easier and feel that perhaps a bit of justice may have been served.
So maybe there was more than one lone gunman. Maybe the other(s) were highly trained KGB assassins. From my uninformed viewpoint, this scenario makes more sense than J.Edgar Hoover ordering the assassination of Kennedy. Sure the CIA may have been a bit involved as such things are often complex and and there may always be rogue agents or double agents. However I can much more readily envision Khruschev or the head of the KGB or the GRU rather than the head of the CIA, ordering the assassination of the U.S. President.
So I don't think the main issue is whether Oswald acted alone. Maybe he did or didn't. I think the issue would be who is more likely to order and attempt such an assassination, the CIA and Mafia or the Kremlin/KGB/GRU. I think Castro and the Kremlin may have had more motivation than others and they certainly had the wherewithal. Somehow I just can't as readily believe that the CIA would have as much interest as the Kremlin in eliminating Kennedy, and for Castro, it was probably a dream come true.
Just a speculation by someone who knows very little about the historical facts;-)
Just wondering.
By the way, I've never noticed either dribble or drivel coming out of John's keyboard. He is one of the very finest posters and observers on this forum.
The Zapruder film doesn't lie and the Warren Commission realized that they couldn't expand the time frame thus the single bullet theory. The Warren Commission came to the following conclusions:
1) That there was only enough time to fire 3 shots.
2) That Lee Harvey Oswald fired those shots.
3) One bullet missed, chipping a curb which nicked Tague. One bullet struck Kennedy in the head. A third bullet struck both Kennedy and Connally creating 7 wounds as the bullet causing these wounds ended up nearly unscathed.
Now John these are the conslusions of the Warren Commission so if you dispute numbers 1, 2 and/or 3 then you are disputing their findings. You seem to be supporting the findings of the Warren Commission that suit your perception of what happened but rejecting the findings of the Warren Commission that don't. At the same time you seem to be saying that the Warren Commission did a credible job. If you reject numbers 1,2 and/or 3 above then I think it is rather illogical on your part to opine that the Warren Commission did a credible job and at the same time botch the recounting of what actually happened. Apparently your position is that the Zapruder film identifies a time line for the shooting that is much longer than 6 seconds, time enough to get off a 4th shot. If you believe this can you see how much your conclusions differ from the Warren Commission's conclusions? If you reject the findings of the Warren Commission then you and I are not so far apart because we probably would agree that the investigation was woefully inadequate and the American people deserved and still do deserve something better.
Now as to the insuation that I'm being duped by people just trying to make a buck off of the controversy. I realize that much of the controversy is perpetuated so that people can make a buck. In the 37 1/2 years since the assassination occurred I've been very skeptical for some very basic reasons. The first thing that bothered my was Jack Ruby. What was being put forth at the time was the Jack Ruby was another lone nut who didn't want to see Jackie suffer by having to return to Dallas. As a naive 13 year old even I had a hard time swallowing that one. From that point on I've believed there was a conspiracy and always will. As an aside my brother worked with one of Ruby's attorney's some years back Melvin Belli. I pleaded with my brother to ask him about Ruby or introduce me to Belli so I could ask him myself. Sadly he brushed me off and I never had the opportunity. He had much the same attitude that the assassination controversy was silly and you can't explain everything that happens in a crime so I'm used to this attitude by now. Hopefully you'll consider what I posted here and realize that our government owes it's people a better investigation at the very least.
"... our government owes it's people a better investigation at the very least. "
That's a far cry from flat out claiming there was a conspiracy. And not an unreasonable request given the perception of the Killing.
Vince
"If you believe Oswald acted alone then necessarily you must endorse the single bullet theory. "
How about you letting me endorse theories I chose to endorse. Just because you believe that there is an either or situation concerning the single bullet theory doesn't really mean anything. Not that your opinion is not valuable but it is just an opinion. The fact of the matter is that Oswald is the only suspect that there is verified evidence that points to his participation in the Kennedy assassination.
All other theories are just that and have no credible evidence that proves anything. John Cole is correct when he says that the most interesting thing about the Kennedy assassination are the silly unsubstantiated "Oliver Stone" conspiracy theories. I'm afraid that you have fallen prey to these rediculous theories.
vince
My own view is that if there was a conspiracy, Castro and the Kremlin would probably have wanted Kennedy dead more than the CIA might have, and that therefore the Kremlin/KGB is more likely than the CIA/Mafia to have been behind it.
The facts that are undisputed by the Warren Commission, the conspiracy advocates, and the House of Representitives Committee are:
1) that the Zapruder film (a very hard piece of evidence) established the time frame for the shooting
2) the fact that only 3 shots could have been fired from the rifle found in the book depository in that time frame.
3) Connally was wounded, Kennedy was wounded with 2 bullets and Tague was nicked by a piece of cement when a bullet struck a curb.
It's fine with me if you don't believe that these are facts of the case. Actually there is very little hard evidence against Oswald and I reiterate I doubt very much if he could have been convicted with the evidence that was against him.
1) that the Zapruder film (a very hard piece of evidence) established the time frame for the shooting
2) the fact that only 3 shots could have been fired from the rifle found in the book depository in that time frame.
3) Connally was wounded, Kennedy was wounded with 2 bullets and Tague was nicked by a piece of cement when a bullet struck a curb.
So what? This is your proof of a conspiracy and massive cover up. Give me a break.
vince
And why do you belive that? The Warren Commission? Believe me , that communist Kennedy had it coming, but it wasn't Oswald. He hung out with the guys that did it. Oswald could be classified as a conspirator, but let us give the credit to where it is due:Good old fashioned communist hating, anti-Castro Cubans with support from the CIA, and the Chicago mob figures (Roselli, Giancana, Nicoletti)associated with operation Mongoose.
Usually when people make facetious comments in the face of plausible arguments they can't refute the arguments presented.
I'm not being facetious. I agree with you. The magic bullet is ridiculous. I just happen to be the same type of anti-communist as George Herbert Walker Bush, Clint Murchison, H.L.Hunt,and pre 1971 Richard Nixon.
Apologies for my misunderstanding.
John,
Didn't a URI professor with expertise in balistics do a detailed study a few years ago of the Zapruder film that lent credibility to the lone assassin theory?
Regards,
Rick
No. You are uninformed and incorrect. The Zapruder film clearly indicates that Oswald would have to have shot 3 shots in 5.6 seconds. No military marksman has ever come close to that in subsequent tests. Why don't you read the Warren report? Why don't you watch the Zapruder film? Why don't you actually analyze Jim Garrison's case before siding with a make believe farce? The answer is simple. You either don't want to do so, or you have an some interest in defending corruption.
The ballistics tests of Oswald in custody of the Dallas police department clearly demonstrate that he did not fire a rifle on 11-22-1963. The magic bullet defies the laws of physics. Deal with it.
Oswald was also accussed of killing officer Tippet so he would have had to have fired a hand gun to kill him as well. The parafin tests were negative as you state.
Jeez, Roger, please lighten up on those who disagree, or haven't had the opportunity to be apprized. It's opinions or misconceptions that are to be impugned, not the people who post them.
I would like to have read the accumulated evidence of the Warren Commission myself. But with my declining eyesight it just wouldn't be possible. There are twenty-six volumes, without table of context, much less an index. There is no perceived order to the presentation, or discernable relevance to much of the material. In fact, I know of only two humans who have read it: Jim Garrison and Mark Lane. And they are two of the Commission's earliest critics.
The disorder of the accumulation strikes me, and struck Garrison and Lane, as intentional, meant to confound the American people.
When I heard that radio broadcast (Larry King interviewing Lane) in the summer of '65, it was the only time in my life that I experienced "mixed feelings". It had all seemed so plain when Oswald was the culprit. As I listened, I didn't know what to believe. Anger, suspicion, curiosity, incredulity rolled around and into each other in a manner I can hardly describe. The next year when Lane's _Rush to Judgement_ was released I read it immediately. The book raised a cacophony of objections, but it bore the ring of truth. And much more has come to light since.
I've always wondered wheither LBJ's refusal to seek re-election wasn't tied to Garrison's investigations and pending prosecutions in New Orleans. Any suspicions I may have will almost certainly never be resolved one way or the other. Did LBJ have foreknowledge, at least in the most general way? Was a local prosecutor close to implicating a sitting President in the crime of the century? We'll never know. The veil remains closed.
"The Zapruder film clearly indicates that Oswald would have to have shot 3 shots in 5.6 seconds. No military marksman has ever come close to that in subsequent tests. "
im pretty sure that this is wrong. which doesnt mean anything, hey, i think the evidence is overwhelming (CIA 'hobos' arrested and released, etc.) that Oswald wasnt just a lone nut.
during WW1, for example, im sure theyre were very very many soldiers who could handle a bolt action rifle that well. (i'd really like to put some documentation here, but i guess im just lazy.)
brad
Rick,
Yes, and recently he lectured on the lone gunman. One of my friends attended the lecture, and he found the evidence overwhelming, but, of course, the skeptics, he said, remained unconvinced. All that messy, rigorous scientific stuff kept bothering them--for some reason.
John
oh, and who gave the lecture, what was the date, what are his credentials? There is nothing out there accept Posner's book, which makes things up. You are like a magician that wishes people to say that 2+2=5, and if you and your kind repeat it often enough, then you believe that people will believe it.
Gee, Roger, had I known you would have had so many questions, I surely would have spent more time interrogating my colleague; however, now that I know you're so interested, I'll give him a real good grilling.
BTW, Bright Boy, while you're at it, you might learn the difference between "accept" and "except." Here's a good way to remember: imagine "Roger" with an X drawn through it. Now, repeat the phrase "Everybody is stupid--except Roger." Just visualize yourself with that big X through your name. You'll know you don't belong, and you'll never have trouble with that homonym error again.
Cheers,
John
.,.,.,.,.
John,
Do you think Roger is "Homonym Phobic"?
vince
I'm glad to see that so many people agree that the Warren Commission investigation was so inadequate.
Motive can be attributed to the American intelligence community because their desire to form American foreign policy, and their affection for clandestine manipulation of foreign governments was being thwarted by President Kennedy. Look at a capsuled biography of Allen Dulles, who helped "Wild Bill" Donovan found the OSS and who was appointed Director of Central Intelligence by Eisenhower, for an appreciation of the depth of the power of the US intelligence community during the Cold War. (See http://home.sprintmail.com/~rigoletto/reports/tim_cooper_allen_dulles.html)
There exists persuasive direct evidence of a conspiracy. Abraham Zapruder's 8mm film of the shooting is presented in its entirety in the movie _JFK_. (You can rent it and look at it yourself. And if you think I'm not telling the truth, please do so.) It is not pleasant viewing, but I have watched it a score of times. To my mind, it establihes that the killing head shot came from the front. I have shown the clip to several foreign nationals who had no idea who the man in the back of the limo was. Without exception, everyone who saw it said the same.
Eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza gave information by personal testimony and by deposition to the Warren Commission that there had been gunshots from a multiplicity of directions. In the reports of the commission their testimony and depositions had been altered. I learned of this in 1965, listening to my car radio to an interview of Mark Lane by Larry King, in King's third nationwide career broadcast. (See http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/the_critics/Lane/Lanebio.html)
As impressive as the direct evidence is, the circumstantial evidence is stunning. Lee Harvey Oswald was a disillutioned washout from the USMC? Oswald had held a Top Secret clearance. These clearances are awarded ONLY after extensive background check by the FBI. Oswald was a Marine Corps Sergeant with one of the most sensitive intelligence jobs of the late 1950s: he was the radar observer from a USAF base in Japan of high altitude U2 overflights of the Soviet Union. He spoke fluent Russian. During the Cold War the only people whom the US military trained in the Russian language were intelligence operatives. There were no exceptions.
Picture this: in Dallas, where the world's most important political leader has just been assasinated, the police receive a report that someone has sneaked into a movie theater without purchasing a ticket. Immediately, twenty-two officers are dispatched in a dozen squad cars to effect his arrest. The man was Oswald.
Oswald was held for interrogation for slightly more than one full day before he was murdered in the downstairs parking garage of Dallas police headquarters. And of the interrogation of the man accused of the assasination of the world's most important political leader, there is no transcript, no record made of the questions posed and responses given.
And Oswald did say "I'm only a patsy" hours before he was shot in the abdomen by a terminal cancer patient with mob ties.
The circumstantial evidence refuting the conclusions of the Warren Commission is more than extensive: it is exhaustive and overwhelming.
The things that strike me the hardest about the Kennedy assasination are the facts that the perpetrators got away with it, and the American people collectively let them.
I had always wanted to go to Dealy Plaza and check it out. Accompanied by my wife, I embarked for Dallas several years ago with the express purpose of investigating the scene of the assassination. My first impression of Dealy Plaza was that it was a much smaller area than I had envisioned. I had always held the opinion that the outlandish single bullet theory was a crock and therefore there was more than one person shooting at JFK. As many others did, I concluded that someone must have been shooting from behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll. I had my wife take a camera and go behind the picket fence and stand at the position where I thought the shots were probably fired from. I would have liked to have traveled in an open air automobile at the speed that Kennedy’s limousine traveled at but it just wasn’t feasible. So I walked along the sidewalk looking to see the positioning of where my wife stood in relation to the route traveled. As I started walking I could not see my wife. Suddenly nearly at the point where parallel to where Kennedy was shot in the head the red light of the camera appeared from nowhere. That’s it I thought and ran over to the place where my wife was standing. The only thing left to convince me that this was an ideal place for an assassin to be standing was reconciling the railroad tower in the middle of the parking lot. A gentleman named Lee Bowers was on duty in the tower on the day of the assassination. He gave some interesting testimony to the Warren Commission. He never said that he saw anyone shoot from behind the picket fence. He testified to a great deal of activity behind the picket fence prior to the motorcade. He also stated that he notice a “commotion” near the spot where my wife stood about the time of the assassination. Bowers died 1 or 2 years later in a mysterious one car accident where the cause of the accident was not determined. My thinking was that Bowers could not get a clear view of the fence because of parked cars obstructing his view. Well when I got to the spot behind the fence I immediately realized that the Tower was MUCH closer to the fence than I had thought. Although I didn’t go up into the tower I concluded without doubt that if someone was firing from behind the picket fence and Bowers didn’t see it, he wasn’t looking. My conclusion was that if Bowers was looking he would have had to have seen what was going on. I didn’t see how his view could have been obstructed at the time of the shooting or he could have missed anything after the shooting. It seemed to me that any would be assassins would immediately have to resolve the view of the area that Bowers had and I couldn’t see how they could unless they could get him out of the tower which he wasn’t. I was disappointed because I was nowhere nearer to resolving what had happened in my own mind. The Texas School Book Depository is a museum now and I of course went to the sixth floor window where the shots were supposedly fired from. Visitors aren’t permitted to occupy the exact position that Oswald allegedly took but you can get a good idea as to what kind of shot he had. All in all it was an interesting trip that left me with more questions than answers.
Parafin tests conducted on Oswald in custody indicated that he had not fired a rifle on 11-22-63. One James Angleton, however, (the section chief of counter intelligence) did have in his possessions a "201" file on Lee Harvey Oswald. This is a file of CIA employees that are considered dangerous and that might be suspected to turn. This indicates that even if the Warren Commission ruled correctly in his sole involvement(a highly unlikely occurrence as the evidence indicates that he did not fire a rifle on 11-22-63) a CIA agent is implicted by the commission.
All this information is public, and not questioned by any government source. There is nothing else to say other than the CIA killed JFK.
Oswald's background in the military certainly indicates that he was trained to work as an intelligence gathering agent.
maybe he washed his hands.
brad
While possible, it was not mentioned in the Warren report. His cheeks had no parafin on them neither. He didn't have much time to take a shower. The bullets found in officer Tippitt's body didn't match Oswald's revolver in a balistics test. Most of the evidence indicates that Oswald didn't fire a shot. Of course, the Warren commission didn't much care for evidence. It's amazing Arlen Specter is a US Senator today. He invented the magic bullit theory.
"It's amazing Arlen Specter is a US Senator today. He invented the magic bullit theory. "
ive heard dan rather was a snot nosed kid reporter who was like 50-100 feet away from the scene. (well real close anyway.)
brad
It was later proven that Rather was lying through his teeth on that one. I'm sorry I don't believe in wild ass, irrational theories like the single bullet theory.
"It was later proven that Rather was lying through his teeth on that one. I'm sorry I don't believe in wild ass, irrational theories like the single bullet theory. "
i guess it doesnt matter, just curious: was dan rather in dallas that day?
dont be sorry for being rational; just because kurt vonnegut thinks intelligence may be just an evolutionary quirk that will turn out to be a dead end, doesnt make it so.
brad
search for 'chemtrails' on the internet.
its easy to see that the contrails left by jets have qualitatively changed, which makes the speculation so interesting.
brad
df
the modern day 'magic bullet' theory is that one bomb (a truck bomb, fertilizer/oil bomb) demolished the oklahoma city building.
ill let others elaborate.
brad
It is funny that the government permitted McVeigh to die without releasing, and examining the evidence withheld. I'll grant you that.
well, its an appeal to authority kind of thing, but the former head of the fbi crime lab, and general parton (spelling?), former head of U.S. weapons developement or something (you know, somebody who knows about bombs, demolitions, etc.) , both are adamant that a fertilizer truck bomb alone absolutely could not have caused the damage.
i mean , physical improbability is one thing (the magic bullet), but physical impossiblilty is another (bombs obey laws of physics).
brad
Bullets are subject to physics also. Both the magic bullet, and the OKC Federal Building don't make sense. The government has been lying for a long , long time. Any adult should be used to it.
"Bullets are subject to physics also. "
supposedly if you ask (enough) combat veterans, ER physicians, and the like, you'll hear similiar stories to the 'magic bullet'.
of course thats like always folding preflop to a raise because you fear AA. (actually more like folding in stud because you fear roll up.)
brad
Roger wrote, "The Zapruder film clearly indicates that Oswald would have to have shot 3 shots in 5.6 seconds."
Gerald Posner solved the Zapruder film timing issue by *proving* that the first shot was fired 40 frames before what was mistakenly believed, thus confirming that Oswald had 8.4 seconds when he killed Kennedy all by his lonesome.
Sorry Roger, time for you to get on with your life and face the truth.
He's a paid asset of the C.I.A.. Of course, the truth means nothing to you fools. Hey, maybe you can tell me why ballistics proved Oswald didn't fire a shot, why Kennedy's brain is gone, why LBJ ordered the limo redone immediately without any investigation into its condition from gunfire. The evidence is overwhelming that people like you are fools of the government. Its sad that sick minds like yours are still out there.
So is Posner's.
I'm curious to know if you have read the book before passing on it such a harsh judgement. Posner has never been employed by the CIA, as far as I know. Either you have him down as a suspect of being on their employ or you accuse anyone who doesn't agree with a certain viewpoint to be a spook.
I highly recommend the book, in any case.
I would also remind you of what E. Luttwak recently wrote about the CIA, in an article about a different subject. "Behind the front of incredible incompetence lies incredible incompetence". There's more truth to that characterization than all the conspiracy theories put together.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MGriffith_2/posner-1.htm
The game I invented is now being offered at one table near the front door at Bally's in Las Vegas. The Nevada Gaming Commission requires a ninety day trial period. I will have a lot more to say about this game in the future. For now I would invite anybody in the neighborhood to stop in and take a look. Appreciate all feedback.
God the basic strategy tables for this must be a nightmare.
How does this game work? Do you deal out 3 hands face up, and everyone must choose one hand from the same set of 3?
Then how do people indicate which hand they vote for - do you give them a little marker to put in one of three circles or something?
If someone were to use perfect strategy, what is the house advantage?
HAVE you actually come up with some kind of perfect strategy for this game yet? Oh, obviously the answer is yes otherwise you wouldn't know the house edge would you? Ok, is there any way that we can get a look at this perfect strategy?
It wouldn't be too difficult to come up with one using TTH but it would take forever.
What do you think the house advantage would be against the average 15-30 pro? The average 80-160 pro? The guy off the street who's played video poker a few times?
-SmoothB-
Where did you find out how this game is played SmoothB? I'd like to "look" at it.
This is from the archives. I cut and pasted the following passage:
You make a bet. Three twocard starting hands are dealt face up. You pick the best hand. If the hand you pick contains one or two aces you may
double your bet. The five community cards are dealt. If the hand you picked beats the other two, you are paid even money on your bet and double
down (if you did double down) unless you make four of a kind or better. If the hand you pick ties one of the other hands for best hand, you push
your bet unless you make four of a kind or better. If the hand you pick loses to at least one of the other hands you lose your bet or bets unless that
hand makes four of a kind or better.
If the hand you pick winds up with four of a kind it is paid 3-1 odds on both your bet and double down, if made, regardless of whther that hand
won lost or tied. Straight flushes pay 7-1. Royal Flushes pay 25-1. (Thus if a Royal comes on board eveyone would automatically win 25-1.)
http://www.twoplustwo.com/digests/oct99_msg.html#31579
wouldnt the best stratigy for this be to always take the best hand before the flop? just my knee jerk reaction, but it couldnt be the worst possible stratigy.
Of course that is the best strategy. But how do you know which one is the best?
If by the best hand, you mean the hand that has the best chance of holding up against 2 random hands, then the answer is no.
If you've ever seen showdown similations for 3 different hands you know that the answer is often far from obvious.
-SmoothB-
now that i put a little thought into it 22 doesnt have much chance against 4 overcards, even though it is the best hand pre-flop.
And I'm sure that the significance is not lost on you, David Sklansky.
I have tossed around ideas for inventing my own table game - not seriously, but just for kicks. I decided that my table game must fit the following criteria:
1) Must seem simple
2) Must be fun - people must want to play it (obviously)
3) Here is the kicker - Must be able to advertise that the game *could* be beaten over the long term. In fact, it would be advertised as the ONLY casino table game where the player has an advantage over the house.
Obviously, in order to fulfil the third criteria, the game must force the player to make decisions. And there must be a sufficiently large, or nearly infinite number of scenarios possible such that the player would be very unlikely to be able to memorize a basic stratgy table for it.
The first criteria must also be preserved, so there must be a seemingly infinite number of permutations in the context of a very simple game.
Blackjack is just far too simple to satisfy these criteria. There are very few different possible combinations possible that it is not difficult for someone to memorize basic strategy in a short time.
I think this game could have potential though. Now, when you invented this game, did you do so with an eye to eventually uptweaking the 4 of a kind etc bonus, etc so that the game *could* be +EV for the player, and advertise it as such?
-SmoothB-
The present rules allow doubling on a pair rather than an ace. There is also a side bet allowed on high hands. The house advantage against perfect play is one half of one percent. Decent players are probably bucking about 2%.
seems like all the new games I have seen all give a huge house advantage, 10-20%. now of course i am in mississippi and they probably dont figure math has made it down here yet, but with an edge that low couldnt they stick to the traditional games, that move faster and make more money/square ft of floor space?
Is it possible to win at this game? That is if you don't cheat.
Vince
I played the game today and think after a while it becomes a little boring. The jackpot-bet is a joke in my opinion. But anyway it's pretty interesting to see how often the best hand held up. Instead of the jackpot i would rather see a sidebet for best and worst-hand . But that would probably to difficult to handle for the dealer. I guess it will not become very popular but who knows.....
I pulled out a deck of cards and dealt a few dozen hands on the kitchen table.
I thought it was fun.
Of course, I love hold'em, so I only represent a small portion of the market.
I think I would've enjoyed a video-poker version. Make a bet, choose a hand, the board appears, the bet is graded, insert coin. That would be cool.
My twoplustwo cents.
Bobby (I hate when know-it-alls criticize my play at BJ. I wonder how those know-it-alls react to other players who aren't "smart enough" to back the same hand.)
I have just (unexpectedly) booked my trip to LV for the TOC. I am arriving Wed. night, and staying until Sun. night. I will play the TOC, and likely the Omaha hi-lo event on Thurs. If anyone else is going to be there, and I know you will be, please say hi again if we're old friends, or introduce yourself if we haven't met before. As always, look for the big guy with the fossils on the table.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I don't plan on being at the TOC, but I will probably be in town and will then probably be playing at The Bellagio. If any of you do come in, feel free to say hello.
Thanks Mason. However, I doubt there will be any PL Omaha at the Bellagio, while there has always been some very good games of this at the Orleans/TOC IME. I love playing this game with the Europeans; many of them have a LOT of gamble in them.
Other than various limits of HE, what games would you expect to find at the Bellagio during the TOC weekend?
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I'm sure if they know Fossilman will be there Bellagio would spread pot limit. BTW - My buddy Dangerous Dan will be at the TOC and he loves PL Holdem so look for him and say hello. Wish I could make it.
Vince
I'm sure this Vince is right about this. In fact, when he's in town, they even spread $15-$30 hold 'em.
All limits of hold em. All limits of stud. $15-$30 and $50-$100 Omaha Eight or better, and some big mixed games.
David, Oz, Sklansky made a mistake. Yes our David. The one and only. El Supremo. Yes, he made a mistake. But super smart Vince (that be me) is here to help him correct his mistake.
David, my boy, you blew it. You made Holdem Challenge unbeatable and then told everyone! Who wants to play a game that they can't beat? Anyone that plays the same gambling game on a regular basis knows that they can beat that game! That's right, they know they can beat the game. Just ask a poker player or a black jack player or a video poker player or even a craps player. Yes, even a craps player knows or at least at one time knew that he could beat those little spinning ivory cubes. So what if you can prove mathematically that dice can't be beat. Gambler's don't care about all that logic stuff. They have what really counts, intuition! So don't tell them that this Holdem Challenge can't be beat and then expect them to play. Do you think gambler's are freakin idiots? At least give them some false hope and tell them that you are under contract with the casinos and are not allowed to divulge information that may cause the casino to lose money. That way they may think that there is a way to beat the game and you hold the secret. Do you know that there are people, still to this day, that believe that the way in which the numbers are placed around a roulette wheel has a bearing on the outcome of the game. It keeps them interested. They keep searching for the key. It brings them to the table. Even when I found, I mean they found, that there is absolutely no connection between the numbering method and the game outcome it doesn't matter. They are now hooked on the game and know in their heart that they can find the secret to winning.
Yes, my good looking friend, you must promote addiction. You must give them hope even when none exists. You must let them believe there is a secret to winning at Holdem Challenge. Better yet redesign the game a bit and allow expert play to have a positive EV. The game will then become a mainstay in the Casino's and you will grow rich. Look what Card counting has done for Black Jack. A card game that can be beat, yet I can't think of a Casino that doesn't spread multiple Black Jack games twenty four - seven. In fact Casino's love card counting. It makes the game more popular and that makes them richer.
So listen to Uncle Vinnie. Fix Holdem Challenge. Yes put the fix in! Make it beatable and you will see it grow like wild fire. And you and the Casino's will grow rich together. And I will be happy for you. And Mason will be jealous.
Vince
What make the game of BJ so popular is not only that it's beatable but people can decide how they play their hand. Something for everybody. The timid player can stay with 12 when dealer shows a facecard and the maniac can double down the same hand or split facecards or whatever. What that new game would make more interesting would be a second betting-round. And if it would be beatable... even better. :-) I'm the first one buying the book.
Vince, I don't believe the casinos would allow David the option of designing a game that could be beaten with skillful play. They are not in the business to lose money and they will not permit anyone to have any kind of a long run advantage over them when house money is at stake. The only house game that is beatable that I know of is blackjack. But even then all attempts are made to find out who the card counters are and to make sure they don't play. They do this by either barring them or creating conditions that make card counting not worthwhile.
This is fact!!!! take it for what it is worth....
Ray Zee was recently at the commerce. He was called for a high limit stud game. He used his name, "ray zee," instead of his initials, like most players do.
Since I just moved to the poker capital of the world, I wanted to see what the guy looked like.
Within two minutes of him sitting down, two players left the table. There was another player at the table who questioned one of the players who was leaving. I was too far away to hear what he said, but it looked like he asked him why are you leaving?
The two players went to the cage, while they motioned for the friend to come over. He played to his blind, went over to talk to the two guys, and immediately went back to the table and picked up his chips, all the while glancing back at zee.
The players went outside the main entrance and stood near the wooden benches, near the valet. I sat down on the benches, and pretended to be on my cell phone. They were talking very low; very close together. However, I did make out words like cheater, internet, midwest.
Is Ray Zee a cheater? I have no idea. Did the GCA posts have any reputable information. For sure!!!! Has this forever damaged Zee. Of course!!!!
we had this discussion for a long time and we don't need it no more . People are leaving pokergames all the time. And they stay at the valet and talk to eachother also. They easy could have said something like. "I was in Vegas last week and i like the girls at Cheetahs.. but next week i move to the Midwest and since their is no Casino where i live i need Internet to play at Paradise". I don't know Ray but if he ever plays 30-60 i will play with him like i play with anybody. Any discussion about the honesty about any person is worthless without any proof. Stop gambling with other peoples reputation. KNUT
WTF - Cheating is a serious issue and this kind of BS is outrageous. Ray Zee is one of the best players to ever play the game and to make such insinuations is outrageous.
I made a statement earlier in the week about zee. I apologized for the statement. It was way out of line.
I am just letting everyone know what is happening. I am sure it is happening to the other mentioned players.
I mean no harm by my comments.
using my newly purchased pyramid power gizmo, i was able to ascertain exactly what the conversation was.
a: "what the ****! im stuck 2 racks!"
b: "do you know who that was?"
c: "*the* ray zee."
b: "it was all over the internet how a bunch of cheaters tried to take him off, and he *still* won."
c: "hes the author of the book."
b: "the good one."
a: "i thought he lived in the midwest somewhere?"
b: "yeah, he must just be visiting, he wont be here long."
c: "let's go"
I think you only have this partially right. Here's what was really said.
a. Well, what's Ray Zee saying.
b. It doesn't make much sense to me, but he keeps talking about bears, fish, and the moose he saw three years ago.
a. Did it have any effect on the game?
b. I can't be sure, but it seemed like whenever he held the nuts everyone would call, and when he has nothing everyone folds.
a. Do you have any money left.
b. No.....
pyramid says that you both have your ray zees confused.
brad
p.s. best i could do on short notice
Well, perhaps it was our Ray Zee but he didn't mention anything to me about going to LA. There is another Ray Zee who I also know fairly well and he is an excellent stud player. I suspect that this was the Ray Zee that you saw.
If this is in fact true, I am really sorry.
I just do not want the issue of cheating to die. I almost 100% guarantee it is going on. The way that it was brought to light next door was probably wrong (just like my posts).
I will never bring up the issue or ever post to this web site again. Looking back on some of my comments, I do feel pretty horrible.
I learned a good lesson. Sorry ray zee.
I don't know which Ray Zee you saw, but that's no reason not to post here. We do have posting guidelines, and we feel that these guidelines have helped to maintain the high quality of information that we get. Feel free to participate and don't worry about past posts that may have been slightly out of line.
"I will never bring up the issue or ever post to this web site again. Looking back on some of my comments, I do feel pretty horrible. "
Don't be ridiculous. Everyone (except me) makes a mistake now and then. Admitting it shows character. Post as often as you like just be a little more careful in who you refer too. I always pick on David because he's easy. If Ray was offended then maybe you owe him an apology. But the issue of cheating or the perception of cheating is certainly a valid topic for this forum. And if you have reasson to believe it is going on this is the place to discuss it.
Oh yeah, I've quit posting here about a hundred times and no one even noticed.
vince
You wrote: "Oh yeah, I've quit posting here about a hundred times and no one even noticed.
It's tough to notice when you never stay away for more than a few days.
-Rick
Hold on there, Rick. Razzing Vince is my job. Why don't you go pick on Brier?
Bah! To both of you!
Vince
shit oh dear...
1. You stomped on your dong in a public forum.
(Hint: You're not the first and won't be
the last. Learn from it.)
2. Contact Ray privately and make your apologies
to him individually.
3. Once you and he have it resolved, make a post
here mentioning that you screwed up, have
taken it up with the person involved and that
you and he have it resolved.
4. Unless something is presented specifically as
anecdote, is a documentable fact, or
specifically identified as an opinion; consider
it to be bullshit until proven otherwise. If
it's an anecdote or an opinion, give it the
credit it deserves, not politely at the speaker
smile in the appropriate places and then go
back to playing cards.
5. Remember that everyone here, myself excluded
of course ;-) have made errors on par with
implying that someone is a cheat. Most of us
have sorted it out, learned from it and gone
on.
6. Don't stop posting and reading. This is possibly
the single most concentrated source of poker
information and insight in the world today. It
would be a pity to bail out on such a useful
resource because of a brain fart.
Jeff
o/8 flop Qxx turn K river10
My hand AQQJ. I don't know I have straight.
Somebody shows me KK. I think I only have 3 Q. I show my hand to the player next to me and put it face down, my typical way of realeasing hand. Player says I have AJ. I grab my hand before it is mucked and turn it face up. The pot is awarded to me.
Was this the correct response by the dealer?
Should I have accepted the pot?
Correct response by the dealer.... your hand is dead.. you mucked it.
If I am the other player, I call the floor and complain. There is only one player to a hand. You couldn't read your hand/board so you loose...
As far as should you accept the pot... only you can decide that... Personally, I don't think I do.
Just my opinion,
Just another egg
egg is wrong, the hand isn't mucked until the dealer scoops it in. However, your friend should be given 40 lashes for ignoring the One-Player-To-A-Hand rule.
I don't think you did anything wrong, and I don't think you should feel guilty for taking the pot. But you should feel kinda dumb for not being able to read your own hand.
3 Bet,
I agree with you. And I WILL spring for coffee or a drink next time we run into each other (if I'm not busted).
Regards,
Rick
I knew that stuff about the 40 lashes would get you on my side.
It depends on the card room you play in. In some card rooms, and I wish it were all card rooms, if a hand is discarded with a forward motion, face down, it is a dead hand.
Hell, in my local card room I've seen them pull hands out of the muck because they were "identifiable". Which raises the serious question of... when is a hand clearly dead.
Where did this take place?
I have always heard stories about forward motion being a muck, and about mucked hands being totally dead, but I have yet to play in a cardroom where this is the case. Pulling cards out of the muck is much more common than you think.
Personally, I won't accept my cards back after they've been mucked. It's just how I feel the game should be played. I screwed the pooch and mucked a viable hand.
On the other hand, I think the determination for a hand being dead should be fairly straight forward; any of a player's cards touch any of the other cards on the table, any of the player's cards hit the floor; hand is dead. Honestly, I also think that a player's cards should be dead if they're not in direct sight of the other players at the table and the dealer. It irritates the hell out of me when the action is going hot and fast, I look at a player and he's got his cards behind his chips or under his hands and I can't tell they're there. Of course, that may just be a nit to pick because of my inexperience.
Jeff
No, you're right. I don't think they can kill a hand just because everyone can't see it, but I now of several players who are constantly covering their cards up entirely with their hands and you cannot see them.
I ask them to please not to hide thier cards. If they do it again, I call it to the dearlers attention. I also keep a much closer eye on these guys and verify they don't have cards before I muck my hand on the river.
One of the oldest tricks is to keep your cards covered up when the end is check, check, check. One guy mucks out of frustration. You look around and see no other hands and assume you have a winner, and lay your hand down. After the dealer picks up your hand, this guy chimes up... hey looky here!!! I still have a hand...
Happend to me once. Only once!!!!
Just another egg.
:-(
I think you should reconsider the typical way you release your hand. Why do you show your hand to the player next to you anyway? You were lucky to get any money after you put your hand face down. If your questioning yourself, I think you know the right answwer to that.
Ed I,
"AQQJ"
I'm not going to address right or wrong but I have made the same mistake. If I have a pair or two pair in my hand I interlace the pair or two pairs with each other for ex: AQJQ or AKAK or ATAK. Since I have started doing this I take the focus of the pair and focus on the whole hand. It probably sounds stupid but it works for me.
paul
You should not have won the pot.
You threw your hand away in a forward motion towards the muck. It's dead.
Furthermore, the one player to a hand rule applies. He must not make a comment like that while you still have your hand.
If I were the player with the set of kings I would most certainly have had the floor over and I would strongly consider not patronizing that cardroom again if they found against me.
I was in a very similar hand one time.
One player was drawing for low. He had AQ23. In the end low didn't come but he called because he made trip aces on the river.
The pot was very large. On the river the board was something like
AhAsQhTh8c or something like that. Along the way a lot of draws got there and, as I said the pot was very large.
One guy bets on the end and gets a caller and this guy makes a crying call. Someone says 'tens full' and the other guy mucks.
This guy holds up his cards - THREE of us saw his hand and NONE of us pointed out that he had the nuts.
He threw it in and afterward there was no way I was going to bring this up. But one of the others did mention it. The guy who threw the nuts away said 'No way!' and I and a third player confirmed that he did in fact have AQ. 'Oh, wasn't it a jack out there? I think it was a jack.' Nope.
The point is, don't make comments about another hand while there is still action pending.
-SmoothB-
You "shouldn't" have shown the card to the other player, that violates the -One player to a hand- convention. However, unless your discards had hit the muck or another player's cards, they were still live until mucked.
You should have received a spanking for showing your cards to the other player but unless your cards either fouled or were recovered by the dealer, your hand should stand and you should win the pot.
FWIW, whenever you're at the showdown, before you concede and muck, it's a good plan to always start at the top of the list of hands, ie, Straight Flush; and work your way down checking your hand just to make sure you haven't missed something. Even experienced players will get so involved in their draw to a straight that they will miss the fact they hit a Full House. If you're drawing to a set or have two pair, stop for long enough to deliberately verify you haven't accidentally bumbled into a straight or flush you missed because you were focused on the other hand.
As always, YMMV. As for the ethics, that's your call. If it's a house rule that a violation of the One Player rule fouls the hand, then you're SOL If it's not, then you made a mistake, caught it and the pot's yours. Whether you accept it or not is on your own sense of honor.
Jeff
I felt bad when I came home last night so this is why I posted.
In Montana my hand was technically live. In fact a hand can be pulled from the muck and recreated, happens occasionally when a dealer misreads a hand and mucks winner. Many times players alert the dealer of the mistake.
When the pot was awarded my opponent had no comment, seemed oblivious as I was as to what exactly happened. My neighbor,a card room operator from Marysville, Wa felt horrible. She exclaimed AJ more in shock then an attempt to help me win pot. Her first night in Missoula. I kept taking to the dealer during the play of the next few hands until I understood what had happened. Where was I to be this lost in a hand? After about 10 min I counted out what I thought 1/2 the pot contained, gave the chips to the dealer to pass to my opponent. The dealer thanked me handed the chips to my opponent, who still seemed befuddled. I'm not sure they ever understood why they recieved chips or what had taken place. It still bothers me some even though I know I didn't try to pull a shot. In the name of good sportsmenship I believe I owe my opponent the other 1/2 of the pot. Thanks for your comments.
anytime you muck face down toward the dealer it should be a dead hand. BUT in the majority of places your hand is live until it hits the much or sometimes dead when the dealer touches it. since thats the rules and you didnt do anything subversive id take all the pot and feel that you didnt do anything wrong. you are too nice a guy Ed.
no im still here in montana and have not been to the commerce in about 2 years. i guess ive made a few enemies over the years and a good way to try to get even is to slander without identifing yourself. at least russ said who he was and his motive was revenge. if anyone doesnt like or respect me thats your choice. i have the same option as you to find out who you are and go to your boss maybe and tell him some falsehood and see what it does to you. or tell your wife or girlfriend things ive made up or heard. or whatever. see the analogy there. spreading rumors that you know nothing about is wrong. i couldnt give a rats ass about it but i find it sad to see others being disillusioned.
The poster did apologize and say he was wrong. But this is inexcusable. When all the GCA stuff was going o, I said that while we ought to do everything we can to find out the truth, to mention people based on anything other than hard evidence was criminal. Ray, you should give a rat's ass, because being a somewhat public personaliity in the poker world should not give others a license to throw accusations around willy-nilly.
I hope people will, in the future, engage brain before operating mouth. I say stupid things about poker hands all the time. But when another person's reputation is at stake, better to keep one's mouth shut and have others think you ignorant or stupid than to speak and remove all doubt.
The question is how is Ray giving a rat's ass going to improve the situation. Mason gave a possible explanation, Ray said he was in Montana what else has to be said or done? People will say and think what they want. Those with any sense can see the folly of tom's post. He cast aspersions and came away looking like a moron. SM&Z are always going to be targets. If they reacted every time someone said ill of them they really wouldn't have much time for anything else.
I don't think tom came off looking like a moron. The way I read his post, I thought he was saying, "look at the result of GCA's stories." The funny part is that he doesn't know what zee looks like.
As for GCA, I really loved that story about Russ and ray playing heads up in some dingy bar. That would make a great movie scene.
we actually did play a few times headup in a dingy bar. his version has alot more appeal than mine.
I understand your point, but this is not just someone speaking ill of someone else. It's one thing to say Andy Fox is an idiot; it's quite another to say he's a cheater. The first is impolite and an opinion (and quite possibly accurate). The second would be slanderous. It's probably not wise to say the first, but it's definitely criminal, in my judgment, to say the second without air-tight facts to back it up.
There are many instances when someone feels as though they've been cheated without technically having been cheated. Angle shooting is entirely within the rules though looked down upon by many legitimate players. Still, someone who has ben outplayed by an angle shooter might reach the conclusion that the shooter is a cheater. I have a recollection of rules of the game being changed because Ray Zee was so adept at exploiting some situations. Certainly those people he finessed would reach the conclusion that Ray was a cheater even though no rule had been broken. Would telling people about this be called slander? I think it's fuzzy at best. If the definition of cheating is playing outside the rules, and the rules change from venue to venue and from time to time then calling someone a cheater should at least obligate the accuser to state the nature of the cheat.
If you are awarded a pot by the dealer and no one at the table knows you did not win except you are you cheating by taking it?
If a blackjack dealer pays you off on a push are you cheating by taking it?
Your points are valid but, IMO, not germane to the discussion. Or rather, I should say that I have not made my point clear. Tom started his post by saying "this is fact." It turned out not to be fact. At the end, he said, "is ____ a cheater? I don't know." My point is that one ought to be very careful about insinuating someone is a cheater without having his facts in order. Tom's facts were completely wrong.
Now if Tom said he played in a game with Andy Fox and Andy did this, that and the other thing, he's a cheater (or an angle shooter) that would be something else entirely. He would be presenting first-hand factual information, or at least his viewpoint of that information. I could then choose to either refute his version of the facts or ignore his post as I so choose. But to ask in a public forum if someone is cheater is to imply that he is, and this is, in my judgment, indefensible.
"no im still here in montana and have not been to the commerce in about 2 years"
Now that's the smartest thing I've heard you say in 2 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :):):)
rcp
Where in Montana? Curiosity, mind you. I have no interest in the boneheads and the residue left over from the GCA crap. I was raised in Billings so I'm always interested in meeting folks who're still in MT.
Feel free to reply via e-mail or even to tell me to piss off, it's just a Montanan to a Montanan thing.
Jeff
i live in the flathead valley near whitefish for the last 25 years with some in reno thrown in.
My wife went on a girls trip yesterday, so I went from SFO to CSP (Casino San Pablo) to check out the tournament there. Let me preface this by saying that I hate tournaments, but usually do decently in them. It was 120 +100 (1) with T500 for the buy in and T1000 for the add on. Essentially a $220 tournament. I'm in.
I sit down. This could be the bad beat of the night. I'm right next to this guy I've played with before. constant whining, teaching, talking. Just general noise. Someone sucks out on someone else. noise. turn card makes the board scary. Noise (whether he's in or not). Always talking. It's a wonder he doesn't have huge jaw muscles, given all the excercise they get. As I said, I've played with him before. I know his name, but I call him "the Mouth"
Interestingly, for all the projection as an expert this guy does, he never remembers me, even though we've played together countless times. Maybe I'm inconsequential.
Anyway, tournament goes as expected. I win a pot. I get sucked out on. endless cycle. at one point, I won a big one, then, in the next round, my top pair, top kick, set and top two went down to rivered straights by 45s, 64s and 57 off. build it up, break it down, just like a sand dune.
The Mouth says something interesting, just after telling me why his 64s (2nd to act BTF) was a good play (you beat me, buddy, I really don't care about your explaination). Mouth turns to the guy on the other side and they start talking about the Orleans Tournament. Mouth: Yeah, I'm probably going, but I think I'm getting my own room. I usually stay with McEvoy, but I want my privacy
Me (sotto voce): McEvoy's a Tournament Pro. I guess he wants to make sure the dead money's there, you name dropping, bitching and moaning idiot.
Last thing about the Mouth. he takes so damn long on his action. CSP has the timer on all of its TV screens, so i was able to tell that, in a 20 minute round, he once wasted 3 min, 34 seconds on three decisions. Kinda pissed me off, but I didn't want him to change his game since he was playing so badly.
Anyway, it's the sixth or seventh level (150-300) and I'm sittin on ~T1600. UTG (not the Mouth, he's long gone) raises. He's been raising with any two cards, but limping with big pairs. consistantly. I look down to two eights. I re pop and it's fold, fold fold like a shooting gallery until it gets to the button. Button thinks about it and slides three bets in. uh oh. UTG calls and away we go.
flop 7-10-J rainbow. not the best I'd hope for, but I can work with it. Check to me, I bet. button calls, UTG calls. turn perfect. 9 offsuit. check to me, I bet button thinks about it and calls, UTG mucks. river Q uh oh. check bet I call and ask the button "slick". Yep, into the muck I go. Button says "sorry". I ask "why?"
next hand similar situation, but it's a back door flush that gets me this time. I'm off to the live area.
Those weren't the bad beats. It happens.
live area, small 20-40 list, no game. long 9-18 list. open 6-12 seat. I go on the board for the first two and sit in the 6-12. good game, but I couldn't get cards. I was getting tired, so I decided to try to make my buy-in back. I went up, I went down. I felt like the Chumbawumba song (I get knocked down, but I get up again...). I slowly increase my stack.
after a couple of hours like this, both games are 7 handed and my stack is just over 420 (I made my buy in back). My game's getting good. some tight players have left, and two of the 7 are walking (random two, but two sit down, two get up.). it's essentially 4-5 handed at all times. Plus the line-up doesn't know how to adjust their games to the changing conditions. I'm rolling now. Like sands through the hourglass, these are the times of the weak and the clueless.
next thing I know, a floorman is telling us to rack up. we're being combined. No one had complained in our game. I talked to a prop who got booted from the other game. no one complained there. The stupid assed floor combined two great shortish games on his own accord. Bad Beat. I was out the door within two minutes.
always protest and say if you combine the games im quitting. that gives you a chance. let him know that he is costing the owner money by his actions by getting less drop. all said sometimes its best to go home and go fishing.
I actually did protest. Not that they cared. I went home to bed, secure in the fact that I wouldn't be too tired the next day at work.
Not long ago I noticed a post regarding "games in the windy city." I was hoping for the answers myself, but none ever materialized. I do think it was posted in the wrong forum however. I recently moved to Chicago from Los Angeles and was wondering if anyone knew any good mid-limit games.
Thanks MB
Hey MB,
There’s only two public card rooms. Harrah’s in East Chicago Indiana and Hollywood in Aurora, IL.
Hollywood spreads:
10/20 Holdem’ every day. 20/40 on Thursday, starting at 7:00. You need to call and get on the 20/40 list (630-801-7471) or you may never get a seat. These games are almost always full of action. 15/30 on Friday with a call in list. Not sure about the kick off time.
25/50 half Omaha/half Stud both 8 or better, on Monday’s with a 2:00 kick off (I think). Again, you should call. Careful here though, the games been breaking down early between 5:00 and 9:00.
15/30 Omaha 8 or better on Tuesday. Again call.
They also spread 1-5 stud high, 5/10 Holdem’ and a 4/8 Omaha on Wed. don’t know much about these games.
The room is open from 9:00 am until 5:30 am with the 10/20 Holdem’ starting around 11:00 am. On Friday and Saturday the room closes at 8:00 pm.
There are no boarding times so you can arrive anytime. They have 7 tables.
Harrah’s (formerly known as Showboat and still called that quite a bit by the locals) Spreads 10/20 and 20/40 Holdem every day. They also have a 40/80 or 50/100 HOSE game.. limit depends on the players.. on Saturday, Sunday and Wednesday. There’s also a pot limit Omaha high on Thursday I think and a pot limit 7 stud on Tuesday. They also have a very wide variety of lower limit games.
They have 20 or so tables and they have boarding times that start on the hour every odd hour, and lasts for 30 mins. You can call ahead right after boarding ends to get your name on the list for the next boarding (e.g. at 1:30 you can call for the 3:00 boarding). If you’re not there by quarter after, they wipe your name off the list.
Both places have a $5 rake (ouch!).
Let me know if you have any more questions.
Just another egg.
In the Harrah's high limit games, there is a time collection instead of a rake. Sorry, but I don't remember how much.
Does anyone have any updates on the small social no limit game Big John plans to host at the Commerce on Friday, July 13th?
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
Sorry, didn't get a chance to read here for awhile. I have four of my grandkids at the house for two plus weeks. Between trips to the beach and various other places of amusement, I've had no time for any life outside of "GRAMPA"............
The game is set for Friday, July 13th. We hope to get started around 6:30 P.M. at the Commerce Club. The game will be NL Hold'Em with a minimum buy in of $100. Blinds will be $2-3 and everyone will ante $1.00 per hand. This structure should make for a pretty wide open game.While you never no, I've had enough private emails to let me believe that the game is going to materialize.
In the past, as you know, these have been small games that are more for social get togethers than typical public cardroom games. It looks like ther is a possibility that two separate games might be going. The second, will have a $500 minimum buy in and will have $5.00 antes with two $10.00 blinds. This game will only get going if enough player are interested and it won't break up the mini NL game. I will stay in the small game to ensure that it stays "juicy".
Any 2+2ers that will be around LA on Friday are invited to stop by to say hello or to sit in and play some poker. Hope to see you there.
Big John
Why not make it $100 MAX buyin, w/the option of rebuying for $100 when you drop below your original C?
Might make some people willing to take a shot who've never played NL before. Unfortunately, I'll be at the Orleans but hope ya'll have fun.
Inspired by the ongoing saga of Vince's VW bus, and due to overwhelming demand, I'm going to periodically post about my adventures in learning about the techno music/rave scene!
Previously we found that the Irvine Welsh novel "Glue" & Moby CD "Play" were great starting points. So anyway, last night I decided to empty the bins of Moby, Massive Attack, Fatboy Slim, Chemical Bros, Prodigy, Orbital, Trans Am & Kraftwerk at the local music shop.
Reviews to follow but I also picked up John Paul Jones'(the Led Zep one) first solo album, "Zooma". Great stuff and almost all of it done with various basses not synths. Plenty of great stuff for any DJ to use. Go get it.
BTW has anyone ever heard Neil Young's album "Trans"? Apparently, it's only available on CD as a Swedish import w/the best track remixed/ruined. Anyhow, I'm off to the used record shoppe to see if I can get the original. I'll keep you posted! Have a great weekend, everybody!
BillM AKA DJ maxEmum murph AKA Dogcatcher AKA...
How old are you? Didn't you know the trendy little rave scene is practically dead? Then again I live in so.cal so maybe this stuff is still popular somewhere else.
The Streets to the River are not safe, crime is out of control, gangs of thugs prowl the Streets leading to the River. A private organization has been studying the problem and the following is a short version of the report.
A man by the name of Big Slick raises terror on the Streets leading to the River. He is a bully and can rarely win a fight without help from someone in his family. Mop Squeezers walking to the River briskly after work are molested by Kings with uncanny regularity. Occasionally these Kings walk in pairs but more often than not they trap the ladies in a squeeze play on the River. Members of the Royale Family have had their pockets picked clean by two mad Ducks disguised as a pair. Most casino's have banned electronic equipment however, the Computer Hand still manages to beat all odds senseless on the Rivers Edge.
The most notorious bandit of them all is a guy who is known as the One Button Bandit, he steals from the Blind. This One Button Bandit has no honor, and will only steal when no one is around to defend the Blind. The One Button Bandit was caught speeding by a Blind Man carrying a 45, last week. Rumor has it the Blind Man was able to shoot straight at the River and the One Button Bandit fell into the river. The body has not been found yet, the authorities believe he is still alive but may have moved to a new location called, At The Cut Off. Authorities recommend that the Blinds carry a big stick when making any call on First Street.
Gut Shot Pete is still hiding in the bushes at the Rivers Edge, he is a known flasher and usually terrorizes people with big hands. It seems Gut Shot Pete was raised by Mrs Palm and her five daughters. One of Mrs Palm's daughters ran off with Runner Runner Man who won a marathon, when his hand was recognize as the biggest and the best hand on the River. They say it was a squeeze play.
Confidence Men are found along all the Streets to the River, they see a mark and will try and bluff him out of his rightful rewards. These con artists are hard to catch. It is recommended that one should sprinkle a few hands full of the nuts, on the River, to discourage them in the future. Be careful do not approach them empty handed some times they come in pairs.
Finally beware of the Maniacs on the Streets leading to the River. The law is on their side, speeding is allowed. Never try to drag race with them, they are contagious. Many a traveler on the Streets leading to the River have gone insane trying to beat a Maniac at his own game.
SPM,...you have been warned, proceed with caution and play long and prosper...
nt
My head is smoking from the pain and agony of this torturous process. My lungs are free of smoke, as I begin day six. I have quit many times before, the last time for 10 years, this time is the worst of all. My sanity is being tested. I find it interesting that cigarettes are legal, and weed is not. I know people who smoked weed for years, then wake up one day and quit forever, no pain, no agony. We live in a confused society.
SPM,...craving the legal drug nicotine...
you are tuff...just imagine every cigaret is 7-2 offsuit utg in tight aggressive g with tommy on the button..gl,,
good story about the ducks. i just love those wildlife stories. my favorite ducks are redneck grebes. we might make a marlin perkins out of you yet.
I doubt if I will ever be a wildlife anything. The last time a creture came into the house it was a mouse. I jumped on top of the bed and screamed for my wife to kill it. She's my brave hero.
SPM,...I live a suburban life...
How do you feel about hunting, specificaly allowing poor collage students to chase an elk or two on your land. :)
i used to big game hunt lots. but as i got older i found i didnt like killing things so ive stopped for the meantime. i dont judge anyone else that does it though. the best elk hunting is not on my land but around the rocky mt. front on the east side of mt. on public land. if you go ill give you directions.
"but as i got older i found i didnt like killing things"
Does that mean you liked killing things when you were young? I guess that it's a good thing you didn't know Paul feeney back then. Good for him. Of course when you were young Feeney was probably 3 generations away from being born. But I bet Geronimo was really worried.
Vince
good elk on public land, I didnt think that existed anymore?
yea it does we got a couple of million acres of wilderness designated land up the hill from me. roadless to boot. the rest of the world is becoming a giant clearcut or leftover small 6" trees.
you mean with old trees and nobody for miles????
no pine plantations, where the trees are all evenly spaced for miles, maby some briars, maby even some critters that would try to eat me???
do these woods have a name, so I can see what I need to do to get there?
Hunting the only sport that requires more paperwork than taxes
to glacier park whilst you're in the area..gl
Where is Mitch? Did he get fired?
:-)
The strength of pocket aces is legendary. However, more than any other starting hand, pocket aces receive more negative lip service, from unhappy players getting the worst of results. This is another story, on the endless negative results of pocket aces.
Clocking the results of pocket aces during live playing action. The actual results according to the statistics gathered, show pocket aces lose 100% of the time. Winning isn't everything, it is the only thing expected from the best starting hand in Texas Hold'em! Pocket aces were received no less than four times in three separate games and lost to one card out of two cards held, EVERY SINGLE TIME. These results clearly expose pocket aces as frauds. In a land where one card can win, pocket aces are shown to be over priced and over played by the mislead public. Now some would say the sample space is not large enough, but there will always be those who clearly can not accept the logic of short term results. Do you need your brains beat senseless more than once, to know getting into the ring with a world campion is a mistake. Clearly these results along with the lip service given to pocket aces suggest this is a hand to be avoided like the plague.
Who among us has not waited and waited with the patience of a saint, then to finally receive the recommended top group one hand. Committing substantial resources we pound this over priced hand to the river, only to be beat by one card out of two cards held. The Ace, is used to make a wheel, for the lowest possible straight in poker, it has a value of one. Yet we are lead to believe that two ones are the best of starting hand in Texas Hold'em. What moron started this rumor, and how can we the public be so gullible. One, is the loneliest number, goes the song. Yet we find players playing two ones with the bravado of David fighting Goliath. Sorry but, sling shots are not allowed in the casino's.
The propaganda supplied by those who write poker books clearly state pocket aces are the best starting hand. Has wisdom escaped the readers of this propaganda? The immortal words written long ago clearly tells us the real truth regarding those who write. "Those who can do and those who can't teach." To know the truth you must get into the trenches and fight the good fight. The reason that the legend of pocket aces has lasted so long is obvious. You only get them maybe once every 221 hands, so when you loose with them, it's hard to remember the truth over such a long period of time. Most of the time a player can't remember the two cards they threw into the muck six seconds after they release the hand. What hand did you release 221 hands ago, that question should show you that the illogical logic of this post stands on solid ground.
SPM,...am I on quicksand...
Hey Phil missed you last night.
Mike
Mike,
I'm a wanted man, there apears to be a contract out for my head. I've only been playing once or twice a week at Hollywood. I was in Aurora on Friday, game three for the pocket aces statistics. They havn't killed me yet but I do believe I am wounded.
SPM,...you'll see me as soon as I get some body guards...
yes the writers do know that pocket aces never win. but if we told the truth about them people wouldnt play with pocket aces and it would be too hard to win a big pot by cracking them. so please dont post about this anymore or you will be limited to 65 words or less on your posts.
SPM,
Pocket aces usually turn a sane VoP card player into an idiot. When he finally gets them, he loses touch with reality and can't believe that he was dealt them. His oppenents can see this by how quickly he bets them. Instead of being slupped in his chair they can feel the energy eminating. So, they know they have to beat aces.
The problem is the person holding the aces gets married to them and usually will still be holding them on the river with a few stacks of chips gone. Since, he hardly ever gets them, he stops paying attention to what his opponents have, and generally misplays them terribly. So, he ends up losing more chips than he should. I think this is why the average player swears he wish he never had them.
Eventually, the infactuation of having pocket aces will wear off with experience. It really is like marrage.
Good Luck
Mark
Looking to purchase Hi-quality Trout Flies, mostly Nymphs, will purchase by the doz.
Flats in Colorado
only dry flies really need to be hi quality. look for ones made from metz necks at the least. you can get decent nymphs for about a buck a piece from most any good sports store that sells american made ones. if you want to pay more order from orvis or one of the fly companies. or even cabelas is ok for flies. but i like to get them when i can pick them out of the bin. tying yourself is easy for nymphs but work. some pheasant tails,hare ear, prince and some with bead heads will do most of the trout in streams.
For nymphs hi-quality means durable. Not purdy but scruffy. Most good shops should have what you want.
I have been buying my dries from discount mail order, about 9.60 a dozen. Quality varies but the parachute adams I've been using this yr are just fine.
I use alot of BH Princes, but they tend to unravel after a couple of Trout...What's the e-mail address of your supplier?....
Thanks...Flats
The last batch was fron your neck of the woods
Ligas Discount Flies 275 Broolside Ct Boulder, Co 80302 303 443-1412
Fax 303 247-9110 The flies seem to be holding up okay.
Last yr I used Hill's Discount Flies Yakima Wa. 509 972 0412. I believe web site is discountflies.com. The quality seemed a little better.
flyfishingflies.com fliesonly.com fishwestflies.com I have not checked out these. Good Luck. Find any thing interesting please post.
I bought mostly dries can't vouch for nymphs. Both have money back if not satisfied.
I'll try these sites....Thanks for the info..fishings getting good here, water level dropping.
Good Fishing
Princes have lots of "stuff" on them compared to standard dries (wing casing that can fall out, etc) you can take the cheapest serviceable Princes and add a drop of head cement by the casing to toughen them up a bit. Alternatively, you can use PTs which are a bit more durable and seem to work (for me in California, at least) whenever Princes do.
Thanks, I'll try the cement..I like the princes, because of the wings, seem to attract...often use small PT's as droppers..... Thanks.....Flats
Whenever I see a young lady with her tongue pierced, like a cashier I saw today, I get a slight hankering to say something like: "Oh, so you like giving H#@d huh?" :o)
Most of these sluts have swollen tongues so they talk like they have a mouth full of D!c# anyway.
What is with these stupid (mostly) women. It hurts and is dangerous to boot.
Is it all about oral sex or what - geesch screwed up world huh.
Ben S.,
My friend Mr. Johnson does not like the feeling of metal so this one totally escapes me.
Regards,
Rick
Does that mean you remove your rings first?
nt
Hey Rick, that Alden is pretty fu*%ing funny. Fact is I kinda like those chicks with all that metal stuck in their face and tongue. Ain't nothing quite like getting a blow job on the beach in AC in a lightning storm. It really tingles the dingles, especially if you can grab those pierced nibs....well you know what I am driving at. Anyhow, I did those tattoos around their "you-know-whats" like the tigers and panthers although I saw one that I thought was an elephant, and that would have been appropriate.
At 11:17 p.m. Chicago time this web site was moving so slow I feel asleep at the key board. What gives? Is it me or is the something new. My rule is if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Please fix the problem or tell me it's my problem.
SPM,...corn fussed...
As far as I can tell the new server is much faster. This doesn't maen that an occasional problem might happen. I suspect that's what you ran into.
Today I am using another computer and still everything is slow. Plus without a point and click Paradise web site ships me to their site. This is also been happening on a regular time schedule.
SPM,...I'm feeling persecuted...
its your problem at your end i believe. (perfect post for vince to have something weird to say)
SPM...you were trying to buy cigarets on the web and we have rigged your system to sloooooow down then...gl
SPM,
You were probably experiencing a telecom traffic jam. The telco companies routinely do maintenance on Saturday evening through Sunday morning. So, you probably experienced slowdowns due to network rerouting.
Try to log on earlier or at a different time.
Good Luck
Mark
Roger was nice enough to point out that I was unable to get past the first page of the Warren Commission Report; I think he hinted that I lacked the ability to do so. Well, here's a few more books that stopped me cold.
1. Ulysses by James Joyce--Stately, plump Buck Mulligan saying Mass while shaving. Even in the days before safety razors, a simple prayer should have been sufficient.
2. Finnegans Wake by the same author--Jaysus, he didn't even begin it with a capital letter.
3. Moby Dick--"Call me Ishmael." Why? What's your real name? Why do you want me to call you Ishmael? So, you're having a bad day, Ish, with all that drizzle in November. When does the whale get in the picture?
4. Principia Mathematica--enough said; it's about math.
5. Middlemarch, a book written by a woman named George. Hell, took one look at this bulky tome and couldn't make it past the cover.
6. The Anabasis by Xenophon--written in Greek and incomprehensible as such. Almost as hard as Principia Mathematica. Suffers from the same fault as Caesar's Gallic Wars, except that Latin is easier to understand than Greek if you don't know either language. For example, "Arma virumque cano," from another Latin text means "virile arms and a dog."
7. Paradise Lost by the blind poet, John Milton. Of course, I can't be faulted here--no one has ever gotten by the first page.
8. Hamlet by William Shakespeare. Not one of the Bard's best. He telegraphs the ending right from the beginning by calling it a tragedy. Is it really necessary to read it just to find a bumch of dead bodies at the end?
9. Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens. "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times." I much prefer authors who have a good idea of where they're going at the beginning. Too wishy-washy.
10. War and Peace--Tolstoy introduces forty-seven characters in the first paragraph alone. That's forty-five more than I can handle in an entire novel.
If you stopped #9 and 10 after page one it is your loss.
It is possible John is pulling our leg here. - Rick
Rick,
Clinteroo's got two right--at least.
John
By the way I don't doubt it was my loss in not bothering to get past the first few pages in the some of the above books. However, there are many books in the library;-)
nt
nt
Well I might have gotten a tad past page one with some of these...like page 2 or 3 maybe. Both Joyce books, Moby Dick, Paradise Lost, Hamlet and Tale Of Two Cities just didn't do it for me, and I didn't feel like continuing to find out if they later might. I can't recall if I tried War and Peace.
Now for my least favorite required reading assignment: in 10th grade our English teacher assigned us Mayor of Casterbridge by Thomas Hardy. My primary recollection is that it dragged long and heavily.
Egad. I had to read Silas Marner in the 10th grade.
FRASIER: (reading) "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times..."
NORM: Wait a second. Which one *was* it?
Bobby
Anybody know if vol shipped yet,,i did get the other two books i ordered along with essays Vol III, but wonder when i'll get a great surprise in the mailbox...gl
Poker Essays, Volume III is now printed. But we have not yet taken pocession of it from the printer. That should be done this week, and then it will gradually get into the stores.
However, when I did my bindery inspection, I did pick up a couple of boxes, and will ship some books directly to Chuck on Monday. This should be enough to cover the orders that he already has. So I suspect in about 10 days you will see the book.
i got gt and gtboi while waiting for vol iii, i would heartily recommend them to any puntor...gl..i guess now i'll break downand buy your lowball book..i bet there is something there usefull that i can use in other games..since i don't see lowball dealt anywhere...gl
The following is from a book review of Gerald Posner's book "Case Closed." WC stands for the Warren Commission. The test that Vince is referring to is mentioned here in this review. Also notice the discussion revolving around the autopsy photos used to discredit the single bullet theory. Keep in mind that the autopsy provides the best evidence of where the shots that struck Kennedy came from. Kennedy's brain is a crucial piece of evidence that sadly has been misplaced in the National Archives and has been missing since the mid 60's. One thing that encourages me greatly about the debate we've had is that the Warren Commission findings are so widely rejected. Remember this was the only official investigation of the crime and it was so hopelessly conceived. I don't believe that the Warren Commission was an intentional white wash as many do. Here is an excerpt from the review with the following link:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MGriffith_2/posner-1.htm _______________________________________________________
In light of Dr. David Mantik's discovery at the National Archives that the single-bullet theory is very probably a physical impossibility, any book that posits only one gunman is on shaky ground from the outset. Harrison Livingstone explains Dr. Mantik's discovery:
Mantik measured the width of the spine directly on the X-ray. He estimated the front-to-back distance of the body as 14 cm (typical for males of this size) and the distance of the back wound from the midline (4.5 cm to 5.0 cm) was given by the HSCA. He measured distances on the photographs as well. The wound seen in the front of the throat at Parkland was placed at the midline. [Quoting Dr. Mantik] "When I placed these measurements onto a cross section of the body at the seventh cervical vertebra and then connected the bullet entry and exit by a straight line, I immediately saw that the 'magic' bullet had to go right through the spine. This path would have caused major damage to the spine and would have been very obvious on the chest X-ray. In fact, there is no major trauma like this anywhere in the spine."
"Because of the impenetrable vertical barrier produced by the transverse processes up and down the entire cervical spine and because of the total width of the cervical spine, there is no place for the bullet to pass through anywhere in the neck and still exit the midline of the throat. If, instead, the upper chest (thoracic spine) is considered as a possible bullet trajectory site, then another problem arises. The bullet would have to go right through the lung. But no lung damage of this type was seen by the pathologists and none is seen on the X-rays either This 'magic' bullet simply cannot enter through the back wound and then exit through the throat wound without hitting the spine--or else causing major lung trauma."
"It is odd that this rather simple reconstruction with exact measurements has never been done before. Its very simplicity, however, provides direct evidence that the object which entered the back could not have exited at the front of the throat." (KILLING KENNEDY AND THE HOAX OF THE CENTURY, New York: Carroll and Graf, 1995, pp. 93-94)
This point can't be overemphasized. Without the single-bullet theory, there can be no lone-gunman scenario. It is as simple and telling as that. Even supporters of the WC admitted long ago that if the single-bullet theory were wrong, then there had to be more than one gunman firing at President Kennedy. Since the theory is very likely impossible, we can be virtually certain that more than one gunman was involved in the assassination. Hence, there is really no need to even discuss Posner's book, since its foundational assumption, that there was only one gunman, is almost certainly wrong. However, because the book continues to be viewed by some as the best defense of the single-assassin theory available, let us now examine a few of the errors the work contains:
* In his illustration titled "The Escape" (p. 481), Posner shows the lone gunman (supposedly Oswald) moving in a straight line from the sixth-floor sniper's nest to the rifle's hiding place. But photos of the sixth floor taken soon after the shooting prove that this would have been impossible because of row after row of stacks of boxes. The ONLY clear path from the sniper's nest ran along the east wall and then the north wall. This, in fact, is the route that WC supporters like Gary Savage and Todd Vaughan believe the gunman would have had to use. The difference is substantial. Posner's route is only about 80-85 feet long, but the clear route would have been 150-155 feet long. To examine the clear photographic evidence on the escape route, see Gary Savage's book FIRST DAY EVIDENCE, pp. 165-175, photos 54-66.
* In his illustration titled "View from above" (p. 479), which is part of his single-bullet graphics, Posner has Governor John Connally rotated nearly halfway to his right at Zapruder frame 224. Posner does this in order to explain how a bullet exiting Kennedy's throat could have struck Connally near his right armpit. However, frame 224 does not show Connally in this position. Connally's shoulders appear to be nearly square to both the roll bar and to the windshield's sun vizors, both of which run perfectly horizontally across the car. FBI photographic expert Lyndal Shaneyfelt told the WC that Connally was facing pretty much straight ahead in frame 224.
* In the above-mentioned illustration for Z224, Posner also has Connally shifted several inches to the left, so much so that he is nearly sitting in the middle of the limousine. However, this frame clearly shows no such thing. Connally is not sitting that far to the left.
* Posner assumes that Kennedy and Connally were hit by the same bullet (the so-called magic bullet) in Zapruder frame 224 (pp. 327-333). Posner posits this theory because he believes Connally's lapel flips up at frame 224 and that this motion was caused by the exiting of a bullet from Connally's chest. However, Connally himself, after carefully studying the Zapruder film, insisted he was NOT hit prior to frame 231. Some researchers, such as Dr. Joseph Riley, question whether the lapel really flips up.
* If the lapel did flip, and if a bullet did cause the lapel flip, then that missile could not have been the same bullet that struck President Kennedy in the back. Why? Because Kennedy is already reacting to a wound in frame 225. He could not have begun to visibly react in frame 225 if he were hit at frame 223-224. In frame 225, as Kennedy emerges from behind the road sign, we see, at the very least, that he has brought his right arm down, bent his forearm inward, and has his hand close to his chest (he was in the process of reaching for his throat). His left hand is at least at the level of his diaphragm. Kennedy could not have brought even his right arm to its Z225 position as a result of a Z224 bullet hit, nor from a hit at Z223.19.
Dr. Roger McCarthy, a ballistics expert, has observed that it would have taken Kennedy at least 3 frames to move hands and arms in response to a shot in the back, and that the latest Kennedy could have been hit was at Z221. The fastest reflex reaction known to modern medicine is the eyeblink, which occurs in 40-50 milliseconds. That's slightly less than the time span of one Zapruder frame. If he had been struck at Z224, Kennedy could not have stopped waving, brought his right arm down, bent his forearm inward, and moved his hand close to his chest in less than 2-3 frames. Zapruder's camera operated at right around 18.3 frames per second. This means that Kennedy would have had no more than 2 frames, or no more than 1/9th of a second, to assume his Z225 position.
Some WC supporters have opined that the bullet would have transited Kennedy at Z223.19. But this still would not have given him enough time to react as we see him doing in Z225. It's a physical impossibility.
* Posner assumes throughout his book that Oswald had the marksmanship ability to perform the assassination in 5.6 to 8.4 seconds. But Oswald was regarded as a rather poor shot in the Marines, as well as by those who later knew him in Russia. Not even world-class, Master-rated marksmen have been able to duplicate Oswald's alleged feat. For that matter, no rifle test has simulated all of the conditions under which Oswald supposedly fired. The closest thing to a realistic simulation was the CBS rifle test held in 1967, in which eleven expert marksmen fired at moving targets from the required height and distances. NOT ONE OF THEM succeeded in scoring at least two hits out of three shots in less than 6 seconds on the first attempt, but Oswald would have had only one attempt. In later series a few of the riflemen did manage to do this. Several of them, though, failed to do it on any of their attempts. And these were experienced, expert shooters. Oswald's best score in the Marines, after weeks of intensive training, was the middle category of three qualification groups, and he just barely qualified for that level. Henry Hurt, an investigative journalist and former Rockefeller Foundation fellow, interviewed dozens of Oswald's former Marine colleagues, and learned that Oswald was viewed as a mediocre to poor shot. One of the Marines said to Hurt,
If I had to pick one man in the whole United States to shoot me, I'd pick Oswald. I saw that man shoot. There's no way he could have ever learned to shoot well enough to do what they accused him of doing in Dallas. (REASONABLE DOUBT, New York: Holt, Rinehart, and Winston, 1985, p. 99)
Although the CBS rifle test came somewhat close to being realistic, it lacked a number of factors under which Oswald would have had to fire. For example, the CBS shooters fired from a window that was completely open, whereas Oswald would have been firing from a window that was no more than halfway open. The CBS shooters did not fire in cramped quarters, but photos of the sniper's nest show that Oswald would have had no more than 30-32 inches in which to kneel. The CBS shooters were able to track the target clearly for the first shot, whereas Oswald's first shot would have come a split-second after the limousine emerged from beneath the intervening oak tree.
* Posner, as do other WC supporters, argues that Oswald would have actually had 8.2-8.4 seconds in which to fire, not just 5.6 seconds. Posner points out that a shot was almost certainly fired at around Zapruder frame 160. He assumes, of course, that Oswald fired that shot. However, in order to accept this assumption, one would have to believe that "Oswald" fired and COMPLETELY MISSED, NOT ONLY KENNEDY, BUT THE ENTIRE LIMOUSINE, and this from a distance of less than 140 feet and while firing nearly straight down at the car.
* Posner asserts that there was no large hole in the back of the President's head, because he knows this would be a strong indication of a shot from the front. Recently released files, however, have provided strong evidence that there was such a defect. The released files corroborate what we already knew from private interviews with witnesses at the autopsy, namely, that there was an orange-sized area of missing bone in the right rear part of the head. In their HSCA interviews, some of the witnesses put the defect squarely in the back of the head, while others placed it slightly to the right, but all of these individuals agreed that the wound was in a region of the back of the head--not on the side, nor on top, but in the back of the skull.
do not forget, a member of wc became president of u.s. w/o winnibg national election...just a coincidence...gl
The only thing you've done with this post is prove to me that Oswald was involved in the assassination. No where have you given any credible evidence that anyone else was involved. You spend the whole post trying to disprove the lone gunman theory instead of proving a conspiracy was at work.
The fact that these so called experts cannot figure out how one man could accomplish the killing as it occurred may just point to the weakness of their science. The following is a classic example of speculation turned into fact by the "I want it to be so" followers.
"When I placed these measurements onto a cross section of the body at the seventh cervical vertebra and then connected the bullet entry and exit by a straight line, I immediately saw that the 'magic' bullet had to go right through the spine. This path would have caused major damage to the spine and would have been very obvious on the chest X-ray. In fact, there is no major trauma like this anywhere in the spine."
The statement: "This path would have caused major damage to the spine and would have been very obvious on the chest X-ray." is an unsubstantiated speculation that even if true in almost all cases does not allow for the exception. But it is pointed to as evidence that something other than what occurred took place.
Enough of this nonsense. Show me the proof of a conspiracy and stop with the bull dooky Oliver Stone insinuations. Show me the money. You again are being fooled by media hype and those that would keep this story alive and reap fortunes for their efforts.
Vince
Vince,
Rent the movie _JFK_. It has the entire Zapruder 8mm film. After watching Abraham Zapruder's home movie, post your opinion of the direction from which the killing head shot came.
Jake
I saw the movie (twice). I saw the Zaprudder film maybe 100 times. Oswald Killed Kennedy and he acted alone. The Warren Commission agrees with me. Oliver Stone agrees with you. Let's see, Earl Warren: Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States . Oliver Stone: Movie maker for profit. Gee, I wonder....
Vince
The Warren Commission itself violated Texas Law, and US Law in its treasonous handling of the affair. Allen Dulles of the CIA agrees with you. He agrees that he was fired by JFK. He agrees that he owned United Fruit Company, and overthrew a freely elected democratic government in Guatemala also. He also believes that the Shah of Iran, Marcos, and Somoza were democratics. David Atlee Phillips, and David Nagell do not, both CIA agents involved with operation Mongoose.
Lets see, Vince Lapore, a man who has not read the Warren Report, or two CIA agents with verified contact with Lee Harvey Oswald in September, 1963, Sen. Church, Sen Weicker, and Sen. Long.
Who should we believe? I hope your poker is not as poorly studied as your political views.
As you point out Vince, whether Oswald acted alone or not is not the main issue when it comes to determining whether there was a conspiracy. For that matter there could have been a conspiracy even if he did shoot "alone".
If there was a conspiracy, then I would bet it is at least 10 times more likely that the Kremlin/KGB/GRU/and maybe "inFidel" Castro rather than the CIA was behind it (except perhaps for a rogue or double agent or two). However the CIA/Mafia theory is of course far more appealing to movie producers.
Rationale for a coverup: If top echelon people in U.S. government at the time did suspect the Kremlin/Castro, that might have been good reason for a coverup because it could have been considered very inadvisable to let the American people know just how vulnerable we were. Not only that but it could have sparked a call to World War III which had not too long before been averted.
Why don't you read the literature too. You really are poorly read and informed in this matter.
Yes I am poorly informed on this matter and I have so stated.
I would like to point out that saying "the CIA did it" is a lot different in this context than saying "the Mafia did it." If a rogue/double agent or two were involved, it is not really accurate and is a bit misleading to say "the CIA did it." That is tantamount to saying that J. Edgar Hoover or high level CIA personnel were involved, because the CIA is an organization operating under one official umbrella. The Mafia however has been and is comprised of various factions and some nearly independent contractors, so saying "the Mafia did it" could be more accurate (if true). It is my understanding that a lot of them would do anything for money, so who knows.
I am just saying that for very high level CIA personnel and the organization itself to be involved in such a conspiracy should be far less likely than the Kremlin/KGB being behind it.
You might be correct. McCone probably(I spelled it correctly this time)did not have anything to do with it. Individuals involved with Central Intelligence did.
"Individuals involved with Central Intelligence did. "
You are a bigger idiot than Oliver Stone. Where did you read this in a masterpiece work by an unknown author. Talk about educated idiots.
vince
The list is quite long. Are you sure you can handle multiple sources, volumes of interviews, the Church Committee records, the HSCA records, the evidence from the Dallas police(which definitively showed through parafin tests that Oswald did not fire a rifle on 11-22-63), FBI reports from Hoover dated 1961 putting forth that Oswald, a known US intelligence employee, had apparently others using his identity? The list is endless. Of course, I wouldn't expect someone like you to read anything at all.
"(which definitively showed through parafin tests that Oswald did not fire a rifle on 11-22-63), "
Gee it looks like Oswald was falsely accused. Poor guy. I wonder who did kill Kennedy, then. Oh yeah that "Rogue Element" guy. You are a freak!
vince
The parifin tests were negative. This is a just a fact of the case. Initially none of Oswald's finger prints or palm prints were found on the rifle. Ten days after Kennedy was killed a palm print was found on the rifle. It would have never stood up in court because the "chain of evidence" was broken. I wish you'd quit trying to sell that single bullet theory.
Tom,
Be honest if you can. Go back and find where I endorse any theory other than the theory that Oswald acted alone. When you can stick to the facts and the truth about what I've said maybe we'll talk. Stop trying to weasel out of your position like Roger is by attacking me.
vince
In order for Oswald to have acted alone, the magic bullet theory has to be correct. You therefore endorse the magic bullet theory. It truly is sad to have to explain it to you.
"In order for Oswald to have acted alone, the magic bullet theory has to be correct. "
You continue to prove your idiocy.
vince
The national archives have photographs of Kennedy's coat and shirt. The holes in the back are 5.5 inches below the neckline. Thats a fact. the Bullet had to turn 90 degrees north travel 5.5 inches, and then exit the throat. Connally isn't hit in the Zapuder film for about another 1.7 seconds later. The bullet therefore has to stop in mid air for 1.7 seconds before causing 5 wounds to the Governor. This is all published. Of course the Zapruder film, the shirt and coat were held sealed for 6 years before the public could look at them. That's your honest Chief Justice at work!He was as honest as J. Edgar Hoover, I will grant you that.
Hey Vince,
Welcome to Roger's club of those incapable of reading; it's just the two of us now, but if he gets to the bottom of the previous thread, Cyrus might join us on the list.
John
John,
This guy is a scream. He and Tom Haley should make a movie. Or has that been done already.
vince
Vince,
They did make a movie; it ended with the words "Meet Frankenstein."
John
Check out the interview with Walter Cronkite and LBJ in which Johnson himself expresses dissatisfaction with a single assasin theory, New York Times, April 28, 1970.
You are a true ignoramus. I hope your poker is better than your feeble discourse here.
I wrote the following in an earlier thread when I incorrectly thought someone was being sarcastic and silly:
"Usually when people make facetious comments in the face of plausible arguments they can't refute the arguments presented."
This is the case with John and Vince. Vince likes to troll and John believes in all powerfull federal government. Case closed on them.
Now, Tom,
Given your stance, who believes in an all-powerful federal government?
John
"Vince likes to troll and John believes in all powerfull federal government. "
Tom likes to attack the messinger when he can't effectively attack the message. Case is not closed to me. But Tom claims that there was a conspiracy yet cannot prove it. Tom is among those that believe without proof.
Vince
"LBJ in which Johnson himself expresses dissatisfaction with a single assasin theory, "
I guess you got me here. I mean Johnson should know. According to Stone and you he was involved himself. Not surprising that he would not believe in the single assassain theory if he were involved. Of course if he weren't involved how would he know if there was or was not a single assasin? He had access to all the governemt information available. If that information indicated a conspiracy why didn't he just come out and say so? You are a clown. After you read something try thinking about what you read you might surprise yourself and find that tese things you read are mostly if not entirely speculation.
BTW - You seem to be trying to change the subject quite reuraly now. First you brought David into the discussion and his role with the mob and now you want to bring in my poker playing. Are you losing control or do you feel like your position is so weak you need to divert attention to another subject? Hey idiot, I've seen this ploy before.
Vince
I never said that Johnson was directly involved.You made that up. Still, you have read nothing. It's like trying to talk about poker without having read Malmuth and Sklansky. You then make deriding comments about logical people.Then when I suggest that you read, and give you actual things to read, you imply that Walter Cronkite, Sen. Church, Congressman Boggs, the entire House Select Committee on Assasinations and one of their primary investigators have no credibility. You take great exception to my treating you like you treat others. I've backed up my statements with many real references from credible people. You have done nothing but whine. Your a little old to be a cry baby, don't you think?
"I've backed up my statements with many real references from credible people. "
You have not backed up anything with anything except that somewhere in the world some people believe that there "probably" was a conspiracy. Show me one bit of factaul proof that X was involved in a conspiracy to kill Kennedy. Walter Kronkite may be a respected journalist but nothing that he has ever said points towards any individual or group as having been participants in a conspiracy. nothing that can be proven that is. Every reference you point to contains nothing more than speculation on the part of the author. And you have taken the bait. If reading has done this to you perhaps we should outlaw it in the schools or perhaps you would have been better served by taking reading comprehension, instead of blind faith reading.
Vince
He can't help that he is ignorant. It is beyond his mental capacity. Leave him alone.
Hay Dan,
It's freakin idiots like you that make stupid statements that they can't prove that call everyone else ignorant because we challenge your bullshit. You are a jerk.
vince
>>It's freakin idiots like you that make stupid statements that they can't prove that call everyone else ignorant because we challenge your bullshit. You are a jerk.<<
If this isn't the pot calling the kettle black. Stop the name calling Vince and try to participate in a discussion like a rational adult. Congratulations you've now stooped below your lowest level on this forum which were the threads about game theory.
"Congratulations you've now stooped below your lowest level on this forum which were the threads about game theory. "
Thanks Tom, soon I should be down to your level and we'll be able to converse with Roger and the amoebe.
Vince
Oh, you acknowledge that the mob exists and that your friends are involved? J.Edgar Hoover said it didn't. You must be a paranoid kook. You have offerred nothing but name calling. Roger has suppplied real material. I think you are just an old ignorant troll. Go back to your cave.
Hey John W.,
Get bent. Don't open my posts you freakin jerk. If you had any sense you wouldn't need to be told that if you don't like my posts don't read anything by Vince Lepore. Just read that "real material" by Roger. And make sure you believe it so you can follow the path of the idiot paranoids that believe without proof. I won't read anything else by the too scared to use his real name John W. You are as big an ass as Roger.
vince
That's my name. I will refrain from ever opening your posts again.
From behind.
Do some reading. You really are a true ignoramus. 85% of the American Public, in the latest polls, do not believe Lee Harvet Oswald acted alone. Read Sen. Church's report. Of course, you might have to do something intellectual, namely read. You do know how to read don't you? Read former Sen Lowell Weicker from Connecticut.
Vince is in his troll mode.
H ey Tom,
Both you and this idiot Roger do not know anything about the assassination of Keenedy but you both make stupid accusations anyway. Typical know it alls.
vince
Dear whining vince,
There is overwhelming evidence by the US Congress. If need be, I can caontinue to supply you with resources since you are so intellectual lazy.
"There is overwhelming evidence by the US Congress. "
Yes and you are the one that is overwhelmed.
vince
Hey whining vince,
You haven't read one piece of material, have you? Of course, you probably believe that the Mafia doesn't exist because Hoover said so. Your friend David knows different. I suppose that you would say it was a GCA conspiracy that caused David to acknowledge that he "may have been working" for a casino bilking team for Tony Spilotro. Sklansky wouldn't have made this public admission unless he feared it would come out prior to his spin control. Just what would have happened to anyone suggesting that David was colluding at poker under Spilotro's payroll?
Why don't you actually read the Warren report, and the HSCA report, and bring up some citations to support your argument? The Cronkite and LBJ interview citation is a good example.
Roger wrote: "Why don't you actually read and bring up some citations to support your argument?"
When anybody does cite an argument that's in opposition to yours, you automatically dismiss it by saying their sources are Communists, Fools, or Goverment Cronies, so what's the point?
You forgot ignoramus.
vince
Ted D.
Be careful; you might wind up on Roger's list along with Vince and me. At least with three of us, we can probably afford to pay someone to read to us.
John
Oh I get it, you now believe that David was part of the Kill Kennedy conspiracy. Yes, yes I can see how you derived that. Makes as much sense as anything else you've written.
vince
Roger,
You are a smooth-tongued devil, aren't you?
Are there any meetings organized by 2+2 (or 2+2 Regulars) for 2+2 Regulars (posters)?
Probably not---no cages big enough for all of us. We would probably kill each other anyway, or at least bore each other with bad beat stories.
Over the years (the last 3) I have met many posters and not one asshole in the group. Can't say I want to spent a lot of time at the tables with many of them but it's not cuz I don't like them it's cuz they play well and we all know you can't make much money off a good player.
I'm laying 3 - 1 that Oliver Stone is planning a sequel to JFK. How can that be, you say. Stone knows a money maker when he sees it. But what could it be about. I mean after all he exposed the conspiracy in JFK. All that's let is to... Prove it! Yes that's it. He's gonna prove it! Now how can he do that you ask when no one else has even come close to proving a conspiracy. He's gonna....gonna ... gonna, bring Lee Harvey Oswald back from the dead. Yes he will! Then we will all know the truth. Straight from the conspirator's own mouth. Yeah, I bet he even calls the sequel LHO, just to be consistent.
Vince
Lee Atlee Phillips (CIA station chief in Mexico City in the fall of 1963)on his death bed admitted that rogue elements of the CIA probaly did participate in the assasination of the president. CIA agent Nagell, assigned to investigate radical cuban militants stated that the agency clearly was involved. Clay Shaw was exposed as a CIA asset in 1974. He was then murdered. Johnny Roselli, the Chicago mobs man assigned to operation mongoose admitted to Bill Bonanno that he participated in the assasination (published in Bound by honor). Sam Giancana (Roselli's boss)told his brother the same. Lee Harvey Oswald had a 201 file with James Angelton (chief of counter-intelligence). Only CIA employees had these files. This is all public information.
People have been talking about a conspiracy for years because, just as critics like you claim, they could not have kept it a secret. They didn't. Only poorly read individuals put forth belief in the Warren Commission. Senator Church's committee did not. I suppose Frank Curch was a communist too. Why don't you study what's out there before you make ridiculous claims.
Roger, you wrote:
"Only CIA employees had these files."
I guess this means there is a pretty fair chance KGB employees had these files too;-)
Yeah, double agents. Even that aspect is suspicious. Why was Oswald, a U2 radar intelligence agent, permitted to reenter the US without any debriefing? Why did DeMorenshieldt, another US intelligence agent,acquire jobs for a supposed communist?
Why would Guy Bannister, US Naval Intelligence and board member of an anti-communist league, permit Oswald to share his office.
Your idea is not totally without merit. Just very unlikely.
"Your idea is not totally without merit. Just very unlikely. "
Sounds like your conspiracy theory except for the "not totally without merit" part.
vince
"Why don't you study what's out there before you make ridiculous claims."
Did you look in the mirror when you wrote this. Because it pertains to you and nor me.
"Lee Atlee Phillips (CIA station chief in Mexico City in the fall of 1963)on his death bed admitted that rogue elements of the CIA probaly did participate in the assasination of the president"
Rogue elements? Are you serious. what in the hell is a rogue element of the CIA and where is this clowns proof. Did you not understand the word "Probably" in this statement. You are a fool.
"CIA agent Nagell, assigned to investigate radical cuban militants stated that the agency clearly was involved."
Relly? what names did he name? What was the result of this revelation. Don't be stupid. Get the facts. There are none.
"Clay Shaw was exposed as a CIA asset in 1974."
Puhlese. Isn't this the guy that was tried and found "NOT GUILTY". By everyone but you I guess. Hey maybe he killed OJ's wife too. Yeah that's the tie in. Better get going on your book. Stone may make a movie of it for you.
"Johnny Roselli, the Chicago mobs man assigned to operation mongoose admitted to Bill Bonanno that he participated in the assasination (published in Bound by honor). Sam Giancana (Roselli's boss)told his brother the same"
If they made these staements they lied. They were mobsters for chistmas sakes and Giancana hated Bobby. And look who they told. Am obsters son for crying out loud.
"This is all public information."
So is the official conclusion that LHO acted alone. So:
"Why don't you study what's out there before you make ridiculous claims."
And please stop acting like a paranoid idiot that thinks he knows something but really knows nothing.
vince
Just a couple of quotes for the uninformed Mr.Lepore. Of course, perhaps Mr.Lepore believes that the US House of representatives are a bunch of half baked conspiracists. You get an F-, Mr.Lepore. ...........
(b) The Warren Commission failed to investigate adequately the possibility of a conspiracy to assassinate the President. This deficiency was attributable in part to the failure of the Commission to receive all the relevant information that was in the possession of other agencies and departments of the Government. (c) The Warren Commission arrived at its conclusions, based on the evidence available to it, in good faith. (d) The Warren Commission presented the conclusions in its report in a fashion that was too definitive.
While the committee concluded that the Warren Commission failed in significant areas to investigate "all the facts and circumstances" surrounding the tragic events in Dallas, the committee also found that assigning the responsibility for that failure needed to be approached with utmost caution and care. In large measure, the Warren Commission's inadequacies in investigating important aspects of the President's assassination were the result of failures by the CIA and the FBI to provide it with all relevant evidence and information.
Roger,
And this says to you--what?
Remember, and this is something all good researchers do, you need to read and study both sides, not only those that you already agree with. Perhaps you might look at the House's investigation into LHO's supposed high level security clearance, for example.
John
"There is no doubt now that there was a conspiracy, yet most of us are not very angry about it. The conspiracy to kill the president of the United States was also a conspiracy against the democratic system --and thus a conspiracy against you. I think you should get very angry about that."
Gaeton Fonzi Investigator House Select Committee on Assassinations
"There is no doubt now that there was a conspiracy, "
Bullshit. Name the conspirators and the prove they were involved. You people are all very funny.
Vince
"The Warren Commission failed to investigate adequately the possibility of a conspiracy to assassinate the President"
You continue to prove that you are an idiot. Does it say anywhere in your the statement that you quoted that the HSCA concluded that there was a conspiracy? You point to inuendo and inconclusive statements to TRY and prove something for which there is no proof. Your name calling proves the weakness of your arguement. Mine is done to keep you searching to prove your point. Something we both know you cannot do. I wonder why? Let'see. Could it be because LHO acted alone. Gee now who would have thought that the truth could stand up this long given the attacks by such learned men as Oliver Stone and Roger...whoever.
Vince
yes, they did state the President was probably murdered by conspiracy. House Majority Leader Boggs(a member of the Warren commission) disagreed vociferously with the final Warren report. Why don't you do some reading?
The Church senate committee found that among other findings, that members of organized crime with CIA affiliations(Roselli, Giancana, Traficante) had motive,and the means to carry out the assasination. Its quite amusing that you rant and rave, when you haven't read anything. If you'd like some good information on Nixon's plumbers (Sturgis, Hunt, Felix Rodriguez) read the information in HSCA about Hemmings. These guys had massive ties to the radical Cubans. The same Cuban radicals have ties to the Bushes, by the way.The Iran/Contra affair found many of the same group of people involved. Most recently,CANF paid the Miami relatives bills last year. The president of CANF is a former Bay of Pigs paramilitary.
Really, Vince, you know very little about this. Do some reading so that you can intelligently discuss the issue.
"Do some reading so that you can intelligently discuss the issue."
I think you are an idiot. Reading seems to have convinced you that this so called conspiracy now includes the Bushes. Gee, I wonder why Ted Kennedy and the rest of the Kennedy clan aren't screaming for investigations. Maybe they were in on it too. You are funny. Here you are accusing the government of conspiring to kill the president and pointimg to the very same government for your proof. Because you read something doesn't make it true. Or didn't mommy teach you that? Again the word probably does not mean certainly. Show me the proof. Show me the conspirators. You nor the Church committee can. The mob is an easy target when one has no one else to point at. It's also very easy to say Castro was behind the murder or the Soviets played a part. Not only is it easy to make these accusations it's easy to convince idiots (that read) that the allegations are true just by putting the accusations on paper.
vince
BTW- "These guys had massive ties to the radical Cubans." Did you get this bit of silliness from reading? What in the hell does "massive ties" mean or did you bother to find out? I doubt it because you seem to be the type that reads it and believes it. the
Youv'e read nothing. Certainly the Bushes have ties to the CIA and the Cubans community. JEBBush is the governor of Florida. You have read nothing, and are totally uninformed. I'm not going to post about it anymore. When you grow up and investigate for yourself, then maybe someday you can hold an intelligent conversation.
"When you grow up and investigate for yourself, "
You are a joke. What have you "INVESTIGATED FOR YOURSELF"? What a jerk.
Vince
John W. is eloquent in his asessment of your debating skills. The issue is closed in my mind. You will always be viewed as an ignorant old man that doesn't know how to read.
"You will always be viewed as an ignorant old man that doesn't know how to read. "
It's always nice to get compliments from your peers. Thank you. Hey you and John W. may be best served by not opening my posts. The posts that have my name on them. Oh, but you know that, since you can READ.
Vince
I used to believe too that Garrison had something. His handling of the Shaw trial (before, during and after), however, has proven to be a total disgrace to fair judicial procedure.
I strongly recommend the book False Witness which exhaustively demonstrates the utter irrelevancy of the Shaw trials. Note plural, because citizen Shaw suffered the the illogical witch-hunt of the New Orleans D.A. for a reason so insignificant that one can only wonder what Garrison might have been thinking. The judge in Shaw's trial dismissed Garrison's accusations so completely and in so devastating a manner that the D.A. reesorted to impounding and showing (for the first time, in public) the Za[ruder film. The resulting uproar pushed the main issue, Clay Shaw's innoence back stage, and saved Garrison's career.
It's a complete shame that Shaw, a gay person as open as any gay person could be about his sexual prferences in the 60s, had to suffer for Garrison's total lack of morals and profesisonal diligence - not to mention his latent self-hatred as a closet homosexual himself.
...David Lifton, a dedicated supporter of the conspiracy side, had written a magazine article in the 60s, after getting to know and following Garrison in his work and condluded that the D.A. might not be of sane mind. The title of the article in fact was "Is Jim Garrison crazy?"
"The judge in Shaw's trial dismissed Garrison's accusations so completely and in so devastating a manner..."
Gee, I wonder why Roger didn't mention this as proof in the investigation. Must have missed reading it huh Rog..
Vince
No, I've read it and disagree with it. Here are some more resources for you. We have yet to read anything that you have to say founded on anything. Not even the Warren report, which we know you haven't read. I am going to stop responding to this topic.
I'm glad that it is stirring people to realize that the true threat to American deomocarcy comes from the intelligence community. They've been fixing elections for 50 years.
http://www.webcom.com/ctka/pr599-lambert.html
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56560-2001Mar25.html
"I am going to stop responding to this topic. "
It's about time that you gave up and admitted you were wrong. Good boy.
vince
I'm not wrong, your just stupid. Why try to converse with an ignorant imbecile?I'd do better conversing with an amoebe.
"I'd do better conversing with an amoebe."
So would the amoebe! I'm happy for you. You know your place in the hierarchy of intelligence.
vince
"They've been fixing elections for 50 years. "
www.votefraud.org is pretty unorganized, but the facts are that 2 guys wrote a book and documented vote fraud in southern florida. (this was in 80's, way before 2000 presidential)
anyway, they make the interesting case that our elections are unverifiable because the votes are not counted at the precinct level (in front of witnesses). like the 'chain of evidence' or whatever is broken. they make an ironclad argument, and if you read about it the whole 'electronic voting' push really begins to look sinister.
brad
If you have really read the Warren Report (all twenty-six volumes of it), then you deserve our respect - for resilience and diligence, if nothing else.
Understand that my orgins are strictly conspiracy-prone, too. I used to be absolutely certain that JFK was done in by a group of assassins on the payroll of Cuban exiles. Not any more. I may have not changed sides completely (some incidents are hard to put down to chance, despite the evidence) but two things have happened since my innocent days of the 60s:
One, I became a serious player of card and casino games. That meant being able to eliminate noise and to zoom on the essential, underlying mathematics.
Second, I have come to realize, albeit painfuly, how big a role chance plays in our lives. Chaos theory posits nothing really new to the philosopher. That a lone deranged individual can change the course of History is not debated anymore. (Viz. ancient Pesestratus' claim to fame. Things never change.)
The documentary The Men Who Killed Kennedy ? I watched it, taped it and watched it again, totally fascinated. I remember waiting excitedly for the final episode, when names would be named. I remember watching transfixed when the names were named and people's pictures were shown, of Corsicans and Americans. I waited for the roof to cave in, on the WC and everything else but, following an avalanche of lawsuits by those who were named and were still alive, there was a flurry of retractions. It all came to a case of causing excitement by innuendos and winks, and then delivering a hodge-podge of misinformation and angles and handheld-camera shots.
Did anyone say Oliver Stone?
I'd like to say that your post was really very good IMO. I don't think Jack Ruby was a "lone nut" though.
(Glad you liked the post.)
Jack Ruby, if he was on someone's payroll, remained solid throughout his jail time and never "squealed". That would be one hell of an attitue and quite inconsistent with Ruby's small-time hustler and all-round sleazebag background. Still, it's quite possible he acted on the orders of "some higher up".
The reaction of the various "usual suspects" circles, right after the JFK assassination could have been one of panic. All the Cubans and the Mafia big shots and the extreme right-wingers, people like the Hunt family, for example, must have felt pretty hot under the collar. It is not inconceivable that someone tried to silence Lee Harvey Oswald, fearing that he would "hurt the cause". It is not inconceivable that those circles reacted much the same way the Soviets did, when they found out to their horror that Oswald was a self-confessed communist and that he had (Ai ai! Govno!!) actually defected to the USSR in the 50s...
KGB immediately started spreading misinformation about LHO's motives and background, with full Politburo backing. They even forged a letter supposedly addressed by Oswald to Bunker Hunt, confirming his "orders", as the KGB files published in the 90s by defector Mitrokhin revealed.
Jack Ruby could have acted alone, as Case Closed argues persuasively, or he could have acted on someone's orders. The latter has never been demonstrated plausibly enough. But even if he was acting for someone else, the case is currently very much in favor of JFK's killing being the work of one person. Although it's hard for me too to stomach that Kennedy was not the victim of a conspiracy, when you have a totally unreliable person like Oliver Stone arguing the opposite, it makes it all so much easier...
The motive given for Ruby killing Oswald was that he was distraught over the prospect of having Jackie testify in Dallas seems far fetched to me. Is there another motive for Ruby acting alone? Anyway I appreciated reading your thoughts regarding Ruby. No offense but I hardly think Posner is an objective observer. IMO he has staked out his territory so to speak and is making a buck by appealing to a certain market.
Posner claims Shaw had no CIA connections. But Shaw's lengthy association with the Agency was disclosed in a CIA document that was released in 1977. Between 1949 and 1956, Shaw filed thirty reports with the CIA. Three former intelligence agents have linked Shaw to the CIA; these same agents also maintain that Shaw conducted some of his intelligence activities in concert with Guy Bannister and David Ferrie, both of whom are strongly suspected of having participated in the framing of Oswald as the patsy (9:140, 385 n 22; 7:287; 5:500; 11:215-217). Former CIA director Richard Helms admitted under oath in 1979 that Shaw had been a CIA contact of the Domestic Contact Division (43:222-224
Clay Shaw had casual contacts with the CIA, if at all. He was not a right wing nut and he had never taken part in even casual talks about assassinating Kennedy. The agency people, at the time, along with the usual gallery of Mafia dons, Cuban exiles and Klansmen, were anxious to distance themselves from any link to the assassination. They lied at the time (if you can beleive that an American gov't agency can lie!) to cover what they thought were their tracks. The CIA being involved in pretty much whatever clandestine operation going on at the time, they correctly tried to put as much distane as possible between them and Shaw. This hurt them (and advanced the conspiracy theories) big time, when the truth, however insignificant, came out decades later.
All this does not prove a thing. You should read False Witness to understand what happened with Clay Shaw. He was not just released because of doubts, he was proven innocent beyond any reasonable doubt! The judge, an Irish rock of the establishment, was devastating in his opinion. And Jim Garrison, the New Orleans golden boy, was utterly disgraced by the affair. (The Dreyfuss affair pales by comparison. Dreyfuss was exonerated in the end and received an official apology. Clay Shaw died a man who, although declared innocent in court, lost all his money defending himself, found himself socially ostracised, lost his health and finally his life.) Reading how Garrison connected Clay Shaw to the JFK affair is hair rising. You should be scared, if you are an American citizen.
The saddest fact is that after all these years, and despite his complete exoneration in the courts, Clay Shaw remains in the minds of so many people guilty of something. That something is pretty much undefined, as indefined as it was in New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison's mind when he initiated the case against the poor son of a bitch.
Garrison is on record (by the conspiracy side, nonetheless) as believing firmly that "evidence does not matter". What mattered, for Garrison, is "what the jury will believe"! Garrison proceeded on the basis of "stirring things up", of firing off indiscriminate indictments in all directions, until the whole "conspiracy apparatus" somes out of hiding into the daylight.
Now that may be a good technique for fox hunting or something but is sure is nothing for a United States District Attorney to be proud of!
Jim Garrison underwent no less than three, miraculous resurrectios in the public's eye, after being twice totally and humiliatingly disgraced. The latest and most astonishing resurrection happened on the heels of the JFK film, a shameless piece of hack work.
I've read False Witness, and reject its findings. Plenty of evidence ties Shaw to David Atlee Phillips, gunrunning in Cuba, Permindex, David Ferie, and Lee Harvey Oswald. All of which were employed, or in Permindex's case a front, for the CIA. False Witness is just more Garrison bashing because he chose to reveal the lie that is the US government intelligence community.
Get this:
1. Governments lie. That's their natural way of doing things and not an aberration.
2. Governments of superpowers, such as the U.S., lie even more than usual. Sometimes they don't lie at all, but just go ahead and step all over yous! Because they're strong, that's why.
3. The Right was on the warpath in the 60s, afraid of the changes that were coming about, in sexual morals, race relations, political agitation, etc. The Right was involved in numerous conspiracies. (Read Cockburn et al's Whiteout for a sample of the United States government's planned involvement in drug trading and drug importing into the country!)
All of this does not mean (repeat: DOES NOT MEAN) that we must take at face value every version of events which points towards a conspiracy. If the Left should have learned something from its Soviet-adoring years, it's that paranoia ultimately destroys you (witness the Moscow trials of the 30s).
No, it is not.
The book's author used to firmly believe in a conspiracy and liked Garrison. But she researched her subject very thoroughly, honestly and objectively, as well as she should, for which she deserves kudos. Her book ultimately offers devastating (to put it mildly) and exhaustively documented evidence of the lunacy unleashed by that dangerous, if not psychotic man, New Orleans D.A. Jim Garrison, who found himself right at home in the paranoia-infested drama of the JFK assassination.
As did so many of us...
Wwe disagree. Its that simple. I find False Witness a commerical piece of trash.You obviously don't.That isn't going to change by postings on this board. Clay shaw had many ties to the CIA. That's been admitted by the agency itself. Disbelieve if you want.
But I'm curious : you are obviously quite passionate about the Kennedy assassination, surely much more than I am. Have you read the books from the other side, books like False Witness? I think you posted you did, in another post, but I don't remember. (Quite a reliable person, ain't I?!..)
That book, for example, was anything but "commercial trash", as you called it. There're books from both sides of the argument which are just fodder. False Witness is not only not commercially-driven, it went against the grain! Jim Garrison was a Holy Apostle for many people.
Taking the unpopular point of view cannot be good business, ever. The author of the book would make much more money and more easily (all that research! all these sources!) with another knock-off conspiracy theory paperback.
Some people say that he worked for Carlos Marcello, because he failed to heavily investigate the mob ties of Ruby and Ferrie. The thought here is that he over emphasized the CIA in relation to Operation Mongoose, rather seeing the CIA and the Mafia as partners.
I think Garrison had a lot of guts to take on the intelligence community. It was better for him personally to be ridiculed in public rather than eliminated.
The Kennedy murder has occupied my time off and on. Lately I've read more due to the British Scientific Society study which supports by acoustics a second gunman.
2+2 loves the number of posts as it increases the amount they can charge for advertizing. Obviously, I'm not the only poster that shows interest.
Vince
If the "debate" gets any lengthier it'll need its own forum.
And can we please have a moratorium on the name-calling?
And I'm not self-appointed referee; I'm a partisan. I looked at the Zapruder clip _ad nauseum_ and it convinced me that the kill shot came from the front.
Whatever...
im available as a second should things escalate.
brad
"it convinced me that the kill shot came from the front. "
No disrespect but do you think that the WC looked at the Zaprudder film and concluded the shot came from the front but lied? Do you believe that the experts the Commission had look at the film were incompetent ninkimpoops and that you are able to determine that the gun shot came from one direction or another just by viewing the film? Perhaps you should consider volunteering your services as an expert witness.
Vince
Vince,
Yes, I do doubt the sincerity of the Warren Commission's conclusions. That is the whole point. Bear in mind that LBJ initially resisted the idea of an official investigation. And given the hostility between Allen Dulles and Kennedy, why was this man, who held no official office after resigning as the Director of Central Intelligence, sitting on the Commission?
Be aware that his exit from the CIA was not amicable. Kennedy and Dulles disagreed upon the direction of US foreign policy and the means by which it was to be accomplished. Dulles had engineered overthrows of democratic governments in Guatemala and Iran because he considered them inimical to the interests of the US. Dulles arranged the Bay of Pigs invasion, which was in advanced stages of preparation when Kennedy was being sworn into office. Dulles apparently convinced the reluctant new president that the operation would be successful because Castro was unpopular, and that there was complete deniability, meaning the US would not be implicated. He was absolutely incorrect. When the invasion failed, it was a tremendous embarrassment. But it was worse than that. We were guilty of violating the sovereignty of a popular government. And the repercussion was the alienation of much of the third world when we were trying to persuade these countries to avoid entering the Soviet orbit.
Dulles and Kennedy differed upon Southeast Asia. Kennedy was unhappy with the support we were giving Diem, as a Catholic regime governing a non-Catholic country, perpetuating the tradition of French colonialism contrary to the desires of most of the people who lived there and violating assurances given directly to Ho Chi Min in 1944 by the OSS, the CIA's predecessor. The OSS had promised Ho that if the Viet Min took up arms against the Japanese, France would be barred from reoccupying Vietnam. Truman had let them back in. Dulles apparently felt that abandoning a separate government purporting to represent the southern half of the Vietnamese nation would mean that Laos and Cambodia, then Thailand, then Burma would fall under Red control. Even India was feared to be vulnerable. It could mean two thirds of the world's people living under hostile governments. He was unimpressed with whatever promises had been made during the War. They were promises of convenience and abiding by them would have been inconvenient. After Kennedy's death, Dulles preferences were satisfied. We know how this turned out.
Four decades after the fact there are no suppositions or suspicions that can indisputably and finally confirmed or refuted.
But what perhaps can be established is whether the physical assassination of a US President was accomplished by more than one person. If so, then the assassination was _ipso facto_ a conspiracy, by the words bare bones definition, regardless of who inspired it.
It is for that reason that my interest has resolved itself into one modest question: How many people were shooting rifles at my President?
"How many people were shooting rifles at my President?"
Well, I say one. Now, do you also not acknowledge the possibility that two individuals operating independently and shooting at the same time does not constitute a conspiracy. That's not what happened. Oswald was the only shooter but I wanted to make a point. All that other stuff about Dulles is nothing more than motive information. Just because a person or group has a motive does not mean that they comiited a crime. I bet you could show that Joe Dimaggio along with a million others also had a motive. Are you going to include them in your silly conspiracy theory? Where's the proof? I keep asking but you keep hedging.
Vince
Vince is an imbecile.
The "magic" bullet.
After shattering several bones, and flying in directions which defy the law of physics, I look like this!I'm so beautiful and unscathed!http://www.koelle.dk/item_3.html
...were blown onto the trunk lid. This is apparently why Jackie, in understandable shock, tried to climb onto the trunk when a Secret Service agent pushed her back into the seat: she was trying to retrieve the side of her husband's head. If he were shot from the rear, would not the wound debris have been blown forward?
The Zapruder film is the most vivid direct evidence available. It's far from the only evidence, but it is undoubtedly the most vivid. Can anyone who submits that the kill shot (and the other shots) came from a window to the President's rear kindly provide an alternative explanation to what the Zapruder film shows?
If Kennedy were shot from the rear, why did the side of his skull land on the trunk?
If you have not seen the Zapruder film, or cannot recollect it distinctly, please obtain a VHS copy of LBJ, look at the clip [I'm warming you that it is unpleasant], and judge for yourself whether the sickening red spray of blood and brain erupting in a grotesque halo from Mr. Kennedy's head indicates directionality of the fatal projectile.
I would like to hear objective opinions.
Thanks in advance,
Jake
Excuse me Jake, but how much training and experience have you had in determining entrance and exit bullet wounds? I believe the expert consenus is that the wound you are referring to was caused by a bullet from the rear. Of course your training and experience might be just what is needed to get the truth out.
vince
>>I believe the expert consenus is that the wound you are referring to was caused by a bullet from the rear. <<
Wrong! The doctors in Dallas who treated Kennedy concluded no such thing. Believe it or not the full set of autopsy photos was not made availalbe to the Warren Commission. There is much dispute about the autopsy and the evidence obtained from it. Kennedy's brain would give us a lot of information regarding the direction of where the bullet was fired from. It was supposed to have been preserved in the National Archives. Sadly it is missing and has been since the mid Sixties. Nobody knows how or why it got misplaced or is at least admitting to it.
I am uninterested in demonstrating anyone to be "Wrong!”. I'm a candidate for being wrong and at many of the turning points of my life have demonstrated this fact magnificently.
As I expressed in my "reply to Vince", my only interest is determining whether the existence of multiple shooters is provable. To me, the Zapruder films makes it look like JFK was struck in the right occipital lobe from his direct front or slightly right oblique by what was, probably, a disintegrating or hollow point bullet. These projectiles have the advantages of causing exaggerated immediate tissue damage upon entry (although they lack penetration) and foiling ballistics study because there usually are no fragments remaining large enough to display signature rifling. They are an excellent choice for an assassin.
Is there a means by which the existence of multiple shooters can be definitely established?
just pointing out that his statement is wrong.
n/t
"Is there a means by which the existence of multiple shooters can be definitely established? "
Gee and you were so sure there was when you were jumping on my ass.
Vince
Tell us about how possible this is vince. Its your reality.
http://www.koelle.dk/item_4.html
I'd like there to be evidence so persuasive that even the Vince Lepores would be forced to admit plausibility.
I never "jumped" on you. It's my policy to avoid personal abuse and gratuitous insult. I actually felt sympathetic because of the personal insults directed at you because you had the audacity to hold a different opinion.
I found the Zapruder film to be convincing. I have never found insults to be convincing.
"Vince Lepores would be forced to admit plausibility."
Jake,
You have a totally wrong read on this old man. Plausible arguments abound in the case of the Kennedy assassination conspiracy theory. I find the conspiracy theory very compelling. What I find most disturbing though is that people like Tom Haley and this Roger character have declared a conspiracy was in fact the case. Me I just say: "Prove it". Those two little boys and their compadres don't like that.
Vince
nt
I accept the finding that of the WC that Oswald acted alone and killed Kennedy. Until someone can prove otherwise I will stick with my beliefs, unlike others that believe silly inuendos concerning Mafioso, Cubans, CIA et every other possible conspiracy theory put forth by anyone that can type. Yes, Tom I mean you. Roger is just plain stupid so I didn't include him.
vince
Vince just can't read the Warren report,nor the HSCA. Vince is a disabled dunce.We don't include him with evolved simians.
See my answer below regarding conspiracies. To reiterate again, I have a problem with the fact that such a conspiracy under wraps for so long. There isn't one post that I have written where I accussed the CIA, Mafia, or any other group as being responsible for the assassination. I believe that the Warren Commission's Single Bullet Theory outlandish and impossible. Even someone like Posner doesn't agree with some key findings by the committee. I have also stated that I don't believe that the Warren Commission was an intentional white wash as I know there were people on the commission and who worked for the commission that wanted to find the truth. Again I'll reiterate that I was convinced at one point that there had to be a shot from the grassy knoll. After checking out Dealey Plaza in person I have my doubts because I never realized how small an area it really is and I never realized that the railroad tower was so close to the fence. Anyone in the tower could see everything going on behind that fence and I don't see how would be assassins could reconcile this problem. As I wrote previously I think it is fair to say at this point that the Warren Commission was an terribly inept investigation. For one thing it lacked an adveserial process where evidence could be challenged. Many posts here that try to dispute the conclusion that Oswald acted alone and that support the conclusion that Oswald did act alone have pointed to serious problems with the Warren Commission investigation and findings directly and indirectly. In my mind the folks who state that the Warren Commission reached the right conclusion but had the facts of the shooting wrong e.g. longer time frame for 3 shots to be fired have found serious problems with the investigation as well.
What section of the report do you find most signficant, Vince?Please provide volume numbers, and page numbers.
Exactly.
Precisel Consistent with the Zapruder film, but analyzed with much more advanced techonolgy than the WC had at the time, the time frame is simply explained:
The 1st shot is fired at 0 seconds (between frames 160 and 166 of the Zapruder film). Three and a half seconds elapse - then the 2nd shot is fired (frames 223-224). After 4.9 seconds, the 3rd and final shot is fired (frame 313).
Recreation has plainly demonstrated that a marksman of average gun-handling ability would easily be able to shoot the Mannlicher-Carcano, reload and aim again at the target, within the above time frames.
- - - How many people are aware that Lee Harvey Oswald tried unsuccessfully to assasinate an extreme right winger, ret. General Walker, a few months prior to the JFK assassination ?
I'm aware he was accused of such after 11/22/63 for a shooting that took place in 4/63.
"have found serious problems with the investigation as well"
I have stated many times that the WC investigation leaves a lot to be desired. I've never said otherwise. I've never made a statement anywhere concerning the "magic bullet". I have in the past supported further investigation. You on the other hand have made stupid statements such as "if I believe that Oswald acted alone then I must support the magic bullet theory". Bullshit. Because I can't explain it doesn't mean that the conclusion is wrong. You have the same problem with your game theory bull. For some reason you believe that you can explain everthing even without all the evidence. At this point I agree with the Commissions Finding that Oswald acted alone. If you feel otherwise you should provide proof of your accusations. Else you are in fact bearing false witness against those you accuse and those that have done the best they could given the facts they had to work with.
Vince
The magic bullet did it somehow. Just because I can't explain that it stops in midair for 1.7 seconds, and changes direction means that is must have been an act of God. God Shot JFK!
"God Shot JFK!"
Twice!
vince.
In a previous post Vince wrote:
>>Skeptic! Why won't any of you "Oliver Stone" types accept the truth? There are such things as "magic bullets" and the tooth fairy.
Seriously, though, I believe Oswald acted alone.<<
Examine the following:
>>Skeptic! Why won’t any of you “Oliver Stone” types accept the truth?”<<
Apparently you are stating that anybody who doesn’t accept “the truth” as you believe it is is an “Oliver Stone” type. You haven’t given any statement as to what you believe the truth is. Without such a statement from you how would anyone no what you believe it to be? Examine your next statement:
“There are such things as “magic bullets” and the tooth fairly.”
It’s hard to understand your point here. Apparently you are supporting the Warren Commission findings in this case because that is the government’s version of “the truth.”
>> Seriously, though, I believe Oswald acted alone.<<
Ok apparently you don’t believe in the magic bullet and I did miss that.
I wrote:
>> I'm sorry I can't endorse the single bullet theory like you do. If you believe Oswald acted alone then necessarily you must endorse the single bullet theory. <<
Since I apparently made a mistake and believed that you supported the Warren Commission findings regarding the time frame of the assassination I made this statement. If you do support the time frame my statement stands if not I’ll retract it. So which one is it? In fact it would be helpful to tell us all what the truth is since you claim to know it.
Vince wrote: >> "have found serious problems with the investigation as well" I have stated many times that the WC investigation leaves a lot to be desired. I've never said otherwise. <<
Which post was it? I don’t remember such a statement in this debate although admittedly I haven’t read every one of your posts. It seems to me like you’ve supported the Warren Commission findings right down the line except for the blowing out the back of the head stuff possibly.
Vince wrote: >> I have in the past supported further investigation. <<
Again I haven’t read anything in this debate where you have made such a statement. I’m glad you do.
>> You on the other hand have made stupid statements such as "if I believe that Oswald acted alone then I must support the magic bullet theory". <<
I addressed this previously.
>>Bullshit. Because I can't explain it doesn't mean that the conclusion is wrong. <<
No it doesn’t but you stated that you knew what the truth was. Again here is what you wrote:
>>Skeptic! Why won't any of you "Oliver Stone" types accept the truth?<<
If you can’t explain what happened then you really don’t know what the truth is. My original post was saying that the Warren Commission findings are not “the truth.”
>>You have the same problem with your game theory bull. <<
What is that specifically. I posted very little about game theory. My problem with you is that you regarding those posts were that in my mind you attacked the people making the posts.
>>For some reason you believe that you can explain everything even without all the evidence. <<
Where did I say this? I’ve made references to what I consider the most important evidence i.e. the “best” evidence. It would be nice to have as much evidence as possible don't you think?
>>At this point I agree with the Commissions Finding that Oswald acted alone. <<
Apparently you don’t believe in the single bullet theory and the time frame and perhaps the findings about the trajectory of the bullet (back of the head blown out discussion). If this is what you believe (again I’m not sure what you believe) then the official government investigation of the crime failed to establish the correct circumstances of the shooting which was their main mission. I think this is an outrage and if you don’t fine.
>>If you feel otherwise you should provide proof of your accusations. <<
I did. The Zapruder film documents the time frame of the shooting and the single bullet theory is pure fiction. If you accept the time frame and reject the single bullet theory then you have to conclude that there was more than one person firing that day. Why do you think someone like Posner has tried to expand it?
I’m not sure but I think the biggest problem you have is accepting the fact that the government could be wrong and negligent. I think this is most people’s problem with concluding that there was more than one assassin. I'm sure you'll say I'm wrong about this.
>>Else you are in fact bearing false witness against those you accuse and those that have done the best they could given the facts they had to work with. <<
I don’t follow the logic of this statement. To my mind I haven’t borne false witness against anyone or accused anyone of anything except for an inept investigation by the Warren Commission and an inept autopsy, which I haven’t discussed. Again for the 3rd time I’ll reiterate, I don’t believe the Warren Commission was an intentional white wash. I do believe that many on the commission and many working for commission were dedicated in trying to ascertain the truth. I don’t believe the autopsy doctors acted in bad faith either. Again I’ll reiterate, there were many cries in Congress for an investigation immediately after the assassination. LBJ headed these potential congressional investigations off at the pass by conceiving and convening the Warren Commission. LBJ put continuous pressure on the Warren Commission to finish their work. What was the hurry? Apparently LBJ wanted things wrapped up prior to the 64 election. I’m sorry I don’t think political reasons are compelling. Also much information was withheld from the commission by the FBI and the CIA (as you imply). I think that the American people deserved something much better than the Warren Commission investigation into the murder of the president, our president.
"Skeptic! Why won't any of you "Oliver Stone" types accept the truth? There are such things as "magic bullets" and the tooth fairy.
Seriously, though, I believe Oswald acted alone"
Tom,
Because of the grain of respect I have left for you I am going to respond to this post.
First you should be ashamed of yourself. You took the above and made a big deal of it. Taking parts of it and using them out of context to further your goals whatever they may be.
Just so I make myself clear:
"No it doesn’t but you stated that you knew what the truth was. Again here is what you wrote:
>>Skeptic! Why won't any of you "Oliver Stone" types accept the truth?<<
This statement that you exerpted from above was part of the above sarcasm I wrote that ended with the "magic bullets and tooth fairy". It was meant as a joke and you know it. Shame on you! Nowhere do I claim to know the truth about the murder. I believe that the WC conclusion that Oswald acted alone is correct. I believe Cyrus in his posts has given a plausible account of how the killing occurred. Experts have concluded that only three shots were fired. That there was no "magic bullet" just a misread of how the bullet reacted. You don't accept these things and that's fine. You don't have to. If you are not and have not claimed that there was in fact a conspiracy then I do not understand the hostility you have for my position. If all you are clamring for is anoyther investigation then that's o.k with me even though I don't believe a new investigation will alter the conclusion concerning the lone gunman theory. That is all I will say regarding this matter with you because I believe you are conciously hitting below the belt.
vince
>>Because of the grain of respect I have left for you I am going to respond to this post. <<
Don't feel obligated it's no loss it never seemed like you did anyway. In fact it doesn't seem like you have much respect for anyone especially those that disagree with you.
>>First you should be ashamed of yourself. You took the above and made a big deal of it.<<
Some who puts people down, curses at people, someone who always has to have the last word, calls people names, and thinks name calling is an acceptable way to deal with people is telling me I ought to be ashamed. Thanks for the complement because such a statement coming from a person that conducts themselves as you do and have done it is indeed one. Your the one who made a big deal out of it. I was responding to your previous post.
>> Taking parts of it and using them out of context to further your goals whatever they may be. <<
I don't have any goals, I was responding to your previous post and reminding you of why I made that statement.
>>Just so I make myself clear: <<
That would be different.
>>"No it doesn’t but you stated that you knew what the truth was. Again here is what you wrote:
>>Skeptic! Why won't any of you "Oliver Stone" types accept the truth?<<
This statement that you exerpted from above was part of the above sarcasm I wrote that ended with the "magic bullets and tooth fairy".<<
Your insuation regarding Oliver Stone types (a putdown) is what I was referring too and that the truth was evident to you.
>>It was meant as a joke and you know it.<<
No I didn't. I stated that I missed your intent in my previous post regarding the majic bullet. Did you read that? The first sentence I took as a slam on anyone who doesn't believe the Warren Commission account of the assassination.
>>Shame on you!<<
From someone who cursed at posters and called them names when they disagree with you. Again thanks for the complement.
>> Nowhere do I claim to know the truth about the murder. I believe that the WC conclusion that Oswald acted alone is correct.<<
Again your statement >>Skeptic! Why won't any of you "Oliver Stone" types accept the truth?<<
The implication is that you know the truth.
>>I believe Cyrus in his posts has given a plausible account of how the killing occurred.<<
Notice he actually tried to have a discussion and tolerated different viewpoints and refrained from name calling names, cursing, and always having the last word. This is a 180 degree difference from your style.
>>Experts have concluded that only three shots were fired. That there was no "magic bullet" just a misread of how the bullet reacted.<<
This is vague please clarify. You haven't stated anything of content. What do you specifically disagree with regarding the conclusions that the Warren Commission made?
>> You don't accept these things and that's fine.<<
It's hard to accept or reject your statement when it is so unclear.
>> You don't have to. If you are not and have not claimed that there was in fact a conspiracy then I do not understand the hostility you have for my position. <<
If haven't displayed any hostility. Show me one post where I did.
>>If all you are clamring for is anoyther investigation then that's o.k with me even though I don't believe a new investigation will alter the conclusion concerning the lone gunman theory.<<
What theory are you talking about. It's unclear as to what you believe the truth is.
>> That is all I will say regarding this matter with you because I believe you are conciously hitting below the belt. <<
All I've done is respond to your posts.
In the previous post and this post you made the following accusations regarding me which you have not backed up and/or responded to.
>> Taking parts of it and using them out of context to further your goals whatever they may be. <<
>>First you should be ashamed of yourself. You took the above and made a big deal of it.<<
>> You don't have to. If you are not and have not claimed that there was in fact a conspiracy then I do not understand the hostility you have for my position. <<
>>It was meant as a joke and you know it.<<
>>You have the same problem with your game theory bull. <<
>>For some reason you believe that you can explain everything even without all the evidence. <<
>>Else you are in fact bearing false witness against those you accuse and those that have done the best they could given the facts they had to work with. <<
>> That is all I will say regarding this matter with you because I believe you are conciously hitting below the belt. <<
You've made the following claims which haven't supported yet:
Vince wrote: >>Because of the grain of respect I have left for you I am going to respond to this post. <<
Vince wrote: >> "have found serious problems with the investigation as well" I have stated many times that the WC investigation leaves a lot to be desired. I've never said otherwise. <<
Vince wrote: >> I have in the past supported further investigation. <<
Vince wrote:>>Just so I make myself clear: <<
Vince wrote:>>Experts have concluded that only three shots were fired. That there was no "magic bullet" just a misread of how the bullet reacted.<<
"From someone who cursed at posters and called them names when they disagree with you."
See Tom, you see things the way you want to see them not the way they are. My reasons for cursing at the poster in question had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he disagreed with me. Your blinders won't let you see the truth. But that's the way you are. I have had many, many discussions on this 2 + 2 forum. More than a few of them have been heated discussions in which I have taken one side and someone else another. The only times that these discussions turn into name calling exercises is when the other party begins the foray. And I'm not talking about "insinuations" that you or others mistakingly take personally. I'm talikng about down right in your face name calling such as your buddy Roger began in this discussion. You for some reason pin the blame on me. Well, you are wrong. One other thing to prove that I do not need to have the last word (your silly arguement) I will read your response if you post one but will not respond to anything else you have to say in this thread.
Vince
"From someone who cursed at posters and called them names when they disagree with you."
Vince wrote:
>>See Tom, you see things the way you want to see them not the way they are.<<
So you're claiming that what I wrote is not true.
>>My reasons for cursing at the poster in question had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he disagreed with me.<<
Funny the only posters that you curse among other derogatory things you do are the ones you disagree with.
>>Your blinders won't let you see the truth.<<
You keep talking about the truth but you haven't said what it is.
>> But that's the way you are.<<
Huh? There you go again stating something that you can't substantiate. I'll add it to the list.
>>I have had many, many discussions on this 2 + 2 forum. More than a few of them have been heated discussions in which I have taken one side and someone else another.<<
Yes I see it quite often.
>> The only times that these discussions turn into name calling exercises is when the other party begins the foray.<<
So you have no culpability? What a crock this is. This is also a very revealing statement from you. It takes two people to argue and bicker.
>> And I'm not talking about "insinuations" that you or others mistakingly take personally. I'm talikng about down right in your face name calling such as your buddy Roger began in this discussion.<<
Roger isn't my buddy, again another unsubstantiated statement regarding me. There's nothing that is forcing you to stoop to a low level. When you respond in kind your stooping to the same level and thus your just as culpable as they are.
>> You for some reason pin the blame on me. Well, you are wrong.<<
Blame you for what? This is bizarre.
>>One other thing to prove that I do not need to have the last word (your silly arguement) I will read your response if you post one but will not respond to anything else you have to say in this thread. <<
Just look at all the threads you participate in and how many times do you get in the last word? Only because I'm making an issue out of it might you refrain.
The updated lists:
In the previous post and this post you made the following accusations regarding me which you have not backed up and/or responded to.
>> Taking parts of it and using them out of context to further your goals whatever they may be. <<
>>First you should be ashamed of yourself. You took the above and made a big deal of it.<<
>> You don't have to. If you are not and have not claimed that there was in fact a conspiracy then I do not understand the hostility you have for my position. <<
>>It was meant as a joke and you know it.<<
>>You have the same problem with your game theory bull. <<
>>For some reason you believe that you can explain everything even without all the evidence. <<
>>Else you are in fact bearing false witness against those you accuse and those that have done the best they could given the facts they had to work with. <<
>> That is all I will say regarding this matter with you because I believe you are conciously hitting below the belt. <<
>>See Tom, you see things the way you want to see them not the way they are.<<
>>Your blinders won't let you see the truth.<<
>> But that's the way you are.<<
>> You for some reason pin the blame on me. Well, you are wrong.<<
You've made the following claims which haven't supported yet:
Vince wrote: >>Because of the grain of respect I have left for you I am going to respond to this post. <<
Vince wrote: >> "have found serious problems with the investigation as well" I have stated many times that the WC investigation leaves a lot to be desired. I've never said otherwise. <<
Vince wrote: >> I have in the past supported further investigation. <<
Vince wrote:>>Just so I make myself clear: <<
Vince wrote:>>Experts have concluded that only three shots were fired. That there was no "magic bullet" just a misread of how the bullet reacted.<<
Gallup Poll says 81% of Americans believe there was a conspiracy in the assassination of President Kennedy.
"Beginning in the 1970s, Gallup polling showed that the majority of Americans believed there was a conspiracy involved in the assassination… In our most recent update last week, 81% of Americans say that there was a conspiracy with more than one person involved, with only 13% holding out for the lone gunman theory." - From the GALLUP TUESDAY BRIEFING April 3, 2001
Dan,
Interesting that the "majority" in the 70's becomes 81% by 2001. I'm sure that the figure will be even higher thirty years from now. Of course, do you have any idea how many Americans think we have been visited by beings from another planet?
John
You are the lone assasin. You are the x-file.
Funny, Roger, but Gallup reports 45% of those polled believed in UFO visits, 39% didn't, and 16% had no opinion. I believe that constitutes a majority in the poll.
Ok, I'll but that. After all, Earth is in space. We send out Vogagers etc... other intellignet is a fregone conclusion mathematically. Our understaning of the universe makes communication highly unlikely.
The point is that you clowns are trtimg to determine the direction the shot was fired via a film. You boyz is so good it's amazing.
vince
An exit wound should have a corresponding entrance wound correct? The number of bullets declared official by you Warren commission is 3. From the autopsy,Kennedy has 3 wounds:1.His back, 2. his neck, 3. his head. His back wound is five inches below his shoulder blades. How is it that this bullet travels through his neck? A fourth bullet missed, hit the street, and injured a bystander. That is 4 bullets. Your Warren Commission report is flawed.
George,
The location of the lower back wound has often been mistakingly located much lower than it actually was.
I've seen the autopsy photos. You are completely wrong. JFK's shirt is not lost either. The wound is 5 inches below his shoulder blades. Unless you are claiming that the autopsy photos were altered, or that the bloody shirt was altered, then your statement is flat wrong.
Your sources would say that. Your sources happen to be the Ku Klux Klan.
This should have gone under Dr.Wogga's ridiculous statement.
What's a ridiculous statement? And how dare you say my sources are the Ku Klux Klan? You don't know that. I could just be making this up and looking for bozos like yourself to bite at the bait. I demand an apology and a retraction. Further, because we don't know WHO killed JFK, why couldn't the NCAAP have done it? In fact, the Vatican, a jealous gay lover, any person or organization could have done it. Obviously, you can't think that deeply. I feel sorry for you.
It is unfortunate that one finds among the supporters of the Warren Commission and the lone gunman version loonies from the right, assorted white supremacists, Batista supporters, and content supporters of the status quo in general. Doesn't exactly advance the case for the legitimacy of the Warren Report, right?
Well, the fact is that we should be able to rise above the noise, to suppress our instictive reaction to support anything the extreme right hates and to investigate coolly. And if we happen to find, at the end of our honest travails, that we were wrong in our assumptions, that doesn't mean that said extreme right "has it right". If JFK was indeed killed by a lone deranged gunman, that doesn't mean that American official policy on Vietnam was correct or that J. Edgar Hoover was not a son of a bitch.
No, it just shows that we are open minded, a damn important prerequisite for our search for Truth, and that we stand a far bigger chance of getting to the bottom of things than the otherwise close-minded right.
Its clear that your interpretation is correct. Mr.LePore cannot let himself concieve that LBJ thought a conspiracy existed, nor that the Dallas Police Dept parafin tests indicate that Lee Harvey Oswald did not fire a rifle on 11-22-63, nor that the Warren Commission ordered many documents hidden for 50 years. The Zapruder film was withheld from the public for 6 years.
Quite a few years ago, the PBS show NOVA looked at the direction of the hits, and yes, they did use the Zapruder film. Scientists found no evidence that any wound came from the front and demonstrated that the movement of Kennedy's head was consistent with a shot from the rear. In addition, doctors did not believe that the wound was caused by either a shot from the front or side. Initially, though, they were a bit perplexed because Kennedy had been on his back for so long that blood pooled to the rear of the head.
Of course, different people see things differently; that's why the conspiracy theory will never be completely proved or disproved.
As has been said before, the book Case Closed provides a reasonable, alternative explanation to the lone-gunman, shot-from-the-back scenario. It cites evidence from physics theory (an object with the make up of the human body will not necessarily move forward when shot from the back) and medical anatomy (a specific and typical reflex reaction of the nervous system when the body is hit in the back explains JFK's motion of putting his arms up in horizontal position after the 2nd shot).
....It's not the Zapruder film or any of the evidence (or lack of it) that had me totally convinced that there was a conspiracy. I would say that anyone who didn't intuitively blame a conspiracy involving the Mafia, the Cubans, the CIA and the American extreme right, at the time (we're talking the fucking 60s! we're talking about the damn Cold War!), was either a hopeless right winger himself or Earl Warren.
Anybody here ever played pool?
Take two balls. Put the first in the middle of the table. Put the cue ball two feet behind it and a little bit (45 degrees) right.
If you wanted to hit ball #1 so that it went BACK AND TO THE LEFT (BACK AND TO THE LEFT), you'd aim the cue ball for the top right hand corner of ball #1.
The bullet tore off the top right side of JFK's skull, didn't it?
I'm no physics major, but isn't there something about equal and opposite reactions?
I haven't looked at the Zapruder film since I saw JFK many moons ago, but I seem to remember that the head does go forward for a split second before jerking back.
Also I believe JFK was wearing a metal back brace. This could also have something to do with his head jerking back after a strong right frontal force.
There were three (3) shots fired. One shot missed. The second shot hit Kennedy and Connally. The third shot hit the back of the President's head and finished him off. That third and fatal shot didn't hit anyone else.
A biliards ball is made from a totally compact, solid material. (Not where I play, I hear you sayin'!) If you take an object which is made out of water in a proportion of approximately 70% (that's the approximate average content of the human body, in fluids) and which is covered with a substance with an elasticity and durability that mimics as much as possible the human body, and you fire a bullet to it - then you will find out that it reacts far differently than a cue ball!
The law of equal and opposite reaction creates a set of different (and "complex") counter-forces in a fluid or semi-fluid body. Try kicking your water bed a few times to get a feeling for this.
The second shot hit Kennedy 5.5 inches below his shoulder blades, turned 90 degrees left, traveled due north 6 inches, exited, turned right, entered Connally and shattered his rib, turned right and exited, hit his wrist and shattered it, turned about 60 degrees left and entered his leg, and was found in pristine condition on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital. That is the crux of the Warren Report. That is Sen. Arlen Specter's great Hitlerian big lie.It is his greatest 15 minutes of fame.
Roger,
What's this? Your mantra? You should take a look at other studies that account for the bullet's path. A bullet fired into human bone in other tests resulted in a bullet that looks very much like the so-called "pristine" bullet.
So, what do you want to believe is the question. You have not proven a thing, but, then again, nor have others who supply contradictory evidence because certain things remain beyond proof. The Kennedy assasination is akin to alien abductee legends: try telling "abductees" they were never really abducted.
John
People like you believe that rees cause air pollution, that above ground nuclear testing doesn't cause cancer, and that bullets zigzag 6 different directions. Pristine bullets that shtter ribs and ankles do not look pristine, let alone make acrobatic turns in several directions. Physics is physics. Of course, try telling Christians that Jesus was not concieved by immaculate conception.
You have absolutely no idea what I believe or don't believe; however, you believe everything that has been spoon fed to you by conspiracy advocates--without bothering to consider differing points of view. Congratulations, my boy, you have uncovered the royal road to intellectual statis. Enjoy life in your cul-de-sac.
"A bullet fired into human bone in other tests resulted in a bullet that looks very much like the so-called "pristine" bullet."
As a matter of fact, the "magic bullet" was never reproduced exactly in various tests that took place after the assasination. This was simply impossible. Ballistics experts have come forth and testified that even bullets fired from a machine gun towards a stationery target do not end up looking the same. This is simply an exercise in futility. (It's one thing to have ballistic evidence that two bullets came out of the same weapon and quite another thing to produce an identical bullet.)
But a lot of people got stuck on that practical impossibility and deduced that the path of the 2nd shot fired by Oswald had to be different than the official version. Which is just a gross leap of logic. "If you can't reproduce the bullet, that means that it didn't do what you say it did".
The Warren Commission actually fired shots into a cadaver's wrists, directly, something which did not happen with Connally (I got into detail about the 2nd shot elsewhere). The 2nd shot fired by oswald did not hit any hard surface directly, head-on! This was a misstep from the Commission.
Thats not the logic. The logic is that bullets don't stop in mid air and change directions 3 times. You sure make things up.
Cyrus,
No, the test was done much later by someone else--wish I had the memory or the information in front of me. And, the test was done using approx. 1000 feet per second as the guideline, which as you have already pointed out, would be the estimated speed of the bullet after it had passed through human tissue. After this test, the bullet did look very much like the "pristine" bullet. A documentary produced by PBS and shown on NOVA also offered some 3D imaging of the flight the bullet would take and showed how Kennedy's head would, in fact, move forward in reaction to the shot.
John
Thanks for the tip; I will try (very lazily!) to check this out.
I notice that the bullet in the re-cretaion you mention looked like the pristine one, it did not have exactly the same look. That would be in line with what I wrote, i.e. that reproducing the bullet's condition exactly, as was demanded by the doubters (count me among them at the time!) was and is an exercise in ballistic futility.
You meant to write "backward", perhaps?
Kennedy's head did appear to be moving backwards, something which spawned the version of hidden killers shooting from somewhere at the front of the President's car.
Cyrus,
Yes, backwards!
John
Freudian slip? Didn't you write your actual thought at the first go?
No one did explain why Kennedy's brain matter, skull fragment or head itself flew rearward if he had not been shot from the front.
Sometimes things are what they seem.
Jake,
Researchers have offered coherent and reasonable explanations--and demonstrations.
John
John,
[regarding spilling of wound debris rearward when JFK was struck in the right side of the head by a (most likely) hollow pointed projectile] "Researchers have offered coherent and reasonable explanations--and demonstrations."
My objection to the WC findings can be divided into two parts:
1. The circumstantial, which is monumental in its vastness, and not the subject in this inquiry, and
2. The direct.
Direct evidence would the testimony and depositions of eyewitnesses (which Mark Lane submits had been systematically altered in their presentation in the WC report) and the Zapruder film. This is, I believe, all there is for direct evidence.
It isn't feasible for me to test the veracity of the actual statements of witnesses versus the reporting thereof. But I can and did look at the Zapruder film till I was tired of seeing it. Did it indicate (to me) directionality of the killing shot? Yes, or I wouldn't be writing this. And I've shown the clip to a half dozen foreign nationals who were unaware of the identity of the man sitting in the rear of the limo. I think the shot came from the front. My Green Card bearing friends said the same thing.
Can we accept that things can be what they seem?
Can you provide this lazy patriot with something like a rational counter-explanation, or reference thereto?
Thanks in advance,
Jake
Jake,
The documentary shown on NOVA used a watermelon, I believe, to stand in for a human head. I know, I know that watermelons are not human heads, but the reaction of Kennedy's head as shown in the Zapruder film was consistent with the demonstration using the watermelon.
Furthermore, just because something appears obvious does not necessarily make it so.
Still, though, I think the most intriguing aspect of the Kennedy assassination is the way it continues to grip our imaginations almost forty years later. Perhaps you might agree with this?
John
John,
I don't seem capable of a short answer. I'm reiterating, but, considering the extent of these several related threads, perhaps that's only reasonable. My interest began in the Summer of 1965, when cruising in my first car (a '57 Fairlane, two-tone blue with 292 ci V8 and a 3 speed) I stumbled upon a curious radio broadcast. I've pulled these from the Archives:
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The Gambling Forum Exchange Archive
Re: Why are all the theories about CIA not KGB?
Posted By: Jake Jacobs
Date: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 3:36 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Why are all the theories about CIA not KGB? (Roger)
...
I would like to have read the accumulated evidence of the Warren Commission myself. But with my declining eyesight it just wouldn't be possible. There are twenty-six volumes, without table of context, much less an index. There is no perceived order to the presentation, or discernable relevance to much of the material. In fact, I know of only two humans who have read it: Jim Garrison and Mark Lane. And they are two of the Commission's earliest critics.
The disorder of the accumulation strikes me, and struck Garrison and Lane, as intentional, meant to confound the American people.
When I heard that radio broadcast (Larry King interviewing Lane) in the summer of '65, it was the only time in my life that I experienced "mixed feelings". It had all seemed so plain when Oswald was the culprit. As I listened, I didn't know what to believe. Anger, suspicion, curiosity, incredulity rolled around and into each other in a manner I can hardly describe. The next year when Lane's _Rush to Judgement_ was released I read it immediately. The book raised a cacophony of objections, but it bore the ring of truth. And much more has come to light since.
I've always wondered wheither LBJ's refusal to seek re-election wasn't tied to Garrison's investigations and pending prosecutions in New Orleans. Any suspicions I may have will almost certainly never be resolved one way or the other. Did LBJ have foreknowledge, at least in the most general way? Was a local prosecutor close to implicating a sitting President in the crime of the century? We'll never know. The veil remains closed.
(eof)
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Re: Why are all the theories about CIA not KGB?
Posted By: Jake Jacobs
Date: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 11:02 a.m.
In Response To: Why are all the theories about CIA not KGB? (M)
Motive can be attributed to the American intelligence community because their desire to form American foreign policy, and their affection for clandestine manipulation of foreign governments was being thwarted by President Kennedy. Look at a capsuled biography of Allen Dulles, who helped "Wild Bill" Donovan found the OSS and who was appointed Director of Central Intelligence by Eisenhower, for an appreciation of the depth of the power of the US intelligence community during the Cold War. (See http://home.sprintmail.com/~rigoletto/reports/tim_cooper_allen_dulles.html)
There exists persuasive direct evidence of a conspiracy. Abraham Zapruder's 8mm film of the shooting is presented in its entirety in the movie _JFK_. (You can rent it and look at it yourself. And if you think I'm not telling the truth, please do so.) It is not pleasant viewing, but I have watched it a score of times. To my mind, it establihes that the killing head shot came from the front. I have shown the clip to several foreign nationals who had no idea who the man in the back of the limo was. Without exception, everyone who saw it said the same.
Eyewitnesses in Dealey Plaza gave information by personal testimony and by deposition to the Warren Commission that there had been gunshots from a multiplicity of directions. In the reports of the commission their testimony and depositions had been altered. I learned of this in 1965, listening to my car radio to an interview of Mark Lane by Larry King, in King's third nationwide career broadcast. (See http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/the_critics/Lane/Lanebio.html)
As impressive as the direct evidence is, the circumstantial evidence is stunning. Lee Harvey Oswald was a disillusioned washout from the USMC? Oswald had held a Top Secret clearance. These clearances are awarded ONLY after extensive background check by the FBI. Oswald was a Marine Corps Sergeant with one of the most sensitive intelligence jobs of the late 1950s: he was the radar observer from a USAF base in Japan of high altitude U2 overflights of the Soviet Union. He spoke fluent Russian. During the Cold War the only people whom the US military trained in the Russian language were intelligence operatives. There were no exceptions.
Picture this: in Dallas, where the world's most important political leader has just been assasinated, the police receive a report that someone has sneaked into a movie theater without purchasing a ticket. Immediately, twenty-two officers are dispatched in a dozen squad cars to effect his arrest. The man was Oswald.
Oswald was held for interrogation for slightly more than one full day before he was murdered in the downstairs parking garage of Dallas police headquarters. And of the interrogation of the man accused of the assasination of the world's most important political leader, there is no transcript, no record made of the questions posed and responses given.
And Oswald did say "I'm only a patsy" hours before he was shot in the abdomen by a terminal cancer patient with mob ties.
The circumstantial evidence refuting the conclusions of the Warren Commission is more than extensive: it is exhaustive and overwhelming.
The things that strike me the hardest about the Kennedy assasination are the facts that the perpetrators got away with it, and the American people collectively let them.
(eof)
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Sometimes I become upset with the American people because of their indolence, their ignorance and their apathy. Their ability to "roll with the punch" in the Kennedy assassination, to wait almost a decade and a half, before sitting bolt upright and declaring "Hey, what are you trying to pull?" is astonishing. And it isn't information overload. It's as if the sections of their brains responsible for normal curiosity had been excised.
I'm not obsessed with the assassination. There is one point only that I would like resolved, by the only direct evidence available. I would to like to see it established, beyond reasonable refutation, that the shot that got JFK out of office (and us into the conflict in Vietnam?) did NOT come from Oswald.
And why would I want this, if I claim to not be a compulsive-obsessive? Because I want the American people to be possessed of a healthy skepticism of their government and an awareness of the perfidies of which it is capable.
And I think of myself as a modest patriot, not a crackpot.
Jake
Fill up a baloon with water. Use a viscous fluid if you want to be closer to what a human skull contains.
Then shoot it, with a gun or with an arrow or whatever. See what happens.
[Spoiler solution : Your missile will exit the baloon taking with it an amount of the fluid. However, at the point of impact, ie the entry, the physical law of action/reaction and the hydraulic transport of the force applied, will cause the fluid to exit slightly backwards. Why? Because you're trying to push the stuff forward! But since you're pushing the stuff only at a specific point, i.e. the point of impact, the fluid tends to move backwards everywhere else.]
The fact is that the bullet was not in "pristine" condition. "Pristine" means immaculate, tip-top, untouched. Like being pregnant, one either is or isn't.
The bullet recovered at Parkland and subsequently labeled Commission Exhibit #399 was described as "pristine" by conspiracy supporters and the media at large - very inaccurately by both. CE #399 was actually a full metal jacket military bullet, which was partialy deformed, but not fragmented nor crushed.
The Warren Commission failed to reproduce the effects on another bullet. C# #856, a test which involved firing a bullet into a cadaver's wrist to simulate Connally's wrist wound, came up with a badly deformed bullet - its head was smashed! However, the WC did not conduct the proper experiment.
They fired a 6.5 mm shell travelling at over 2,000 feet directly into a wrist bone. But if Connally's wrist had been hit by CE #399 directly and at such speed, then the bullet would have been truly in much worse shape - but so would his wrist! The WC did not take into account that the bullet slowed as it passed through the bodies and it never hit a hard surface, like bone on its nose.
Trajectory of the 2nd shot fired by Lee Harvey Oswald, as computed & recreated by Failure Analysis Associates :
At that point, having passed through Kennedy's body, the bullet was "tumbling", i.e. rotating. The bullet's speed was then 1,500-1,600 feet per second. With that velocity and at an angle the bullet hit Connally, who was less than 2 feet from JFK, at practically a straight line, on the right shoulder. The entry wound was 1.1/4” long, the exact length of the bullet, indicating that the bullet was still rotating.
The governor was sitting with his right hand holding up his Stetson. The bullet, continuing on an almost straight path exited at the levl of his right nipple leaving an exit wound nearly 2” in diameter – the bullet was still tumbling. The bullet entered the Governor’s right wrist at the top, travelling backward at 900 feet per second and exited at 400 feet per second. With that velocity, almost 80% less than its initial velocity the bullet hit Connally’s thigh, barely breaking his skin. The phycisian who treated Connally at Parkland, Dr Charles Gregory, gave evidence which is totally consistent with the above. He was actually surprised not to find the bullet, at the time, and suggested that someone “searches the Governor’s belongings and other areas where he had been”. (The bullet was subsequently recovered, as we know, from the stretcher.)
The key to understanding the bullet’s condition after its voyage was that “while its speed and density were still greater than what it was hitting, it was not moving so fast as to deform seriously its metal jacket” (evidence by Dr Michael Baden, chief forensic pathologist for the HSCA).
The entrance wound..photographed in the autopsy, is 5.5 inches below the so called exit wound in the front.
No, this is not the case. The entry wound was higher than that. Secret Service agent Glen Bennett, who was in the follow-up car, took notes of what he saw happened later in the day. He noted, among other things, that he heard a "fire cracker" going off which made him look at the President. At that point he heard another "fire cracker" and saw the shot "hit the President about four inches down from the right shoulder".
As to the "so-called" exit wound you mention, people forget that a tracheoctomy was performed on Kennedy and that it obliterated all forenic evidence of it. Among the doctors who tended to JFK, only five saw the exit wound before the trachoctomy was performed.
-- Dr Jones described the wound as "looking like an entrance wound" in a press conference, starting the conspiracy mill rolling. However, Dr Jones has admited that he described it thus only because he did not know "about the entrance wound [at the back of the neck]". That's what Dr Perry also said, exactly. Worth noting is that no one at Parkland saw the entrance wound at the back, the body of the President having been kept at a face-up position at all times.
-- Drs Carrico and Baxter agreed that the wound "could have been either an entrance or an exit wound".
-- The doctor with the most experience in gunshots, Dr Jenkins was categorical in his statement that the wound was an exit wound. "Even at that time, i was convinced that it was a wound of exit because it was bigger than an entrance wound should be. Entrance wounds, as you look at them, are sma
>>As to the "so-called" exit wound you mention, people forget that a tracheoctomy was performed on Kennedy and that it obliterated all forenic evidence of it. Among the doctors who tended to JFK, only five saw the exit wound before the trachoctomy was performed. <<
I'll get back to the Parkland doctors later hopefully. The original autopsy findings regarding the back wound may have been changed by Dr. Hume the doctor who headed the autopsy. Dr. Hume and the rest of the team completely neglected an examination of the throat wound in the autopsy. The tracheotomy performed on JFK by the Dallas doctors hid this wound from the autopsy doctors. The day after the autopsy Dr. Hume realized his major error and burned the original autopsy that he had written. He then rewrote the autopsy to include the throat wound and many claims that he put the bullet in the back to be much higher than what was in the original autopsy. The facts are that:
1) Dr. Hume was not experienced in performing autopsies nor was the rest of his team.
2) Dr. Hume completely missed the throat wound in the autopsy.
3) Dr. Hume destroyed his original version of the autopsy and rewrote it expressly to incorporate the throat wound.
Whether or not he deliberately moved the wound up from the back to fit the throat wound has not been proven as far as I know.
Tom, my post above yours was postd incomplete and I had to repost it. Please use the sub-thread below. (I know, I know, the audience has already left us but what the hell!)
You mean we aren't keeping America spellbound?
Crap! I thought the whole cast was headed for Jerry Springer.
No, this is not the case. The entry wound was higher than that. Secret Service agent Glen Bennett, who was in the follow-up car, took notes later in the day of what he saw happened. He noted, among other things, that he heard a "fire cracker" going off which made him look at the President. At that point he heard another "fire cracker" and saw the shot "hit the President about four inches down from the right shoulder". It was actually even higher.
As to the "so-called" exit wound you mention, people forget that a tracheoctomy was performed on Kennedy, as the medical staff tried to save him, and that it obliterated all forencic evidence of the wound. Among the doctors who tended to JFK, only five saw the exit wound before the tracheoctomy was performed:
-- Dr Jones described the wound as "looking like an entrance wound" in a press conference, starting the conspiracy mill rolling. However, Dr Jones has admited that he described it thus only because he did not know "about the entrance wound [at the back of the neck]". That's what Dr Perry also said, exactly. Worth noting is that no one at Parkland saw the entrance wound at the back, the body of the President having been kept at a face-up position at all times.
-- Drs Carrico and Baxter agreed that the wound "could have been either an entrance or an exit wound".
-- The doctor with the most experience in gunshots, Dr Jenkins was categorical in his statement that the wound was an exit wound. "Even at that time, i was convinced that it was a wound of exit because it was bigger than an entrance wound should be. Entrance wounds, as you look at them, are small and round, and may have a halo around them, black, from the bullet. But it makes a clean wound. When a bullet goes through the body, tissue moves in front of it and bursts".
They have the shirt and coat from Kennedy. Posner says that Kennedy pulled his shirt and coat up close to his head, the only problem with this is the evidence of the Zapruder film. Its 5.5 inches below the neckline. Drawings by Kennedy's personal physician at Parkland concur with this also.
I may have missed it in the book. Please point out where it says that.
What the Zapruder film shows is JFK pulling his arms up, in a sort of horizontal position, until they are parallel with his chin, hands near the chin and elbows pushed out to the sides. ("By frame 227, the President is in full reaction to the first shot that hit him, which hit him from the rear and exited his throat.")
The Warren Commission was not aware that JFK's spine was damaged by the bullet that entered the base of his neck, since the autopsy phycisians did not examine the spine! And the phycisians did not use the X-rays in preparing their final report.
Subsequent examination of the X-rays (this is on record) reveals that the bullet passed close enough to the spine to cause blast injury, near the 6th vertical vertebra. The X-rays show small splinters of bone at the point of trauma.
That particular injury, to the spine, causes a well-known and instantaneous reaction, which involves precisely those physical movements of hands, elbows, etc, described above ("Thorburn's Position", after the English phycisian who discovered it along time ago.)
The only problem with this ridiculous argument by Posner and you, is that he was shot first. the Zapruder film shows his coat in normal position until shot. I have copies of photos of the coat and shirt from "Bloody Treason" acquired through the National Archives. The holes in the shirt and coat are 5.5 inches below the neckline. You are obviously wrong.
Maybe you are the conspiracist? Perhaps you are claiming that the photos and the Zaprider film are altered? That's the only way to justify your fallacious argument. You conspiracist you!
The President was not wearing a body-hugging pink elastic leotard! He was wearing a regular shirt, and he was sitting. If the bullet hole was "5.5. inches below the neckline" that does not translate into "5.5 inches below the neck"...
Why is this so hard to understand? One doesn't need to be a "conspiracist" as you call me nor a ballistics expert to realize that fact. One needs only to have worn a shirt, at some point of one's life. If you have not, more power to you and, honestly, I envy you. Really.
Really, for the a bullt to travel 5.5 inches north, wait 1.7 seconds and change direction is not possible. All you have to do to believe this is be more than 5 years old.
"Why is this so hard to understand? "
Cyrus,
Is your face blue yet? That's how long it will take you to convince yourself that a "conspiratist" will never admit that the evidence does not support their theory.
Vince
Cyrus at least reads the evidence and disputes it. You acknowledge that the magic bullet theory is likely wrong, and then insist that it is logical to deduce that a man that acted alone shooting 3 shots must have shot 4 or 5. In the time frame alotted, that is illogical.
"then insist that it is logical to deduce that a man that acted alone shooting 3 shots must have shot 4 or 5."
Really, maybe you don't read so good, huh. Please provide the quote where I make the above insistence. You are another one with a big mouth that knows not of what he says.
Vince
Bullshit. Because I can't explain it doesn't mean that the conclusion is wrong. <<
I opened this post because I challenged you to show me my the quote he was refering to.
"Bullshit. Because I can't explain it doesn't mean that the conclusion is wrong."
So this quote says that I insist that 4 or 5 shots were fired. I was wrong you are not an asshole. You are....damned if I can figure it out. Please stay out of my life. I will not open anymore of your posts. There is no reason to.
Vince
1. Only three shots were fired. Surely you are aware of the police radio tape which exists with the sounds from Dealey Plaza of that day. Despite the acoustic chaos of the square, the examination of the tape by the WC showed that three shots were fired. Some doubt was cast because of a possible 4th shot at the time, which, however, has since been disporoven by later-developed techonology. Three shots were fired.
2. I do not "dispute the evidence", I merely respect it. Show me evidence (not proof, just evidence) that there was indeed a possee of hired killers spread around the Plaza, on the Triple Underpass, behind the fence, on the Grassy Knoll, among the Secret Service men riding the follow-up - and you have a follower.
3. There was nothing magic about the 2nd shot that Oswald fired. The bullet did not hit JFK "5.5 inches below the neck", the hole in his shirt was simply undertstandably lower because if we're gonnas sit in a car (and for some time, too) we will make ourselves comfortable with our clothes. The bullet travelled in a straight line, hit Kennedy and then Connally.
Read my posts about the 2nd shot's trajectory, again, if you please. There was no magic.
>That particular injury, to the spine, causes a well->known and instantaneous reaction, which involves >precisely those physical movements of hands, elbows, >etc, described above ("Thorburn's Position", after >the English phycisian who discovered it along time >ago.)
JFK was not displaying Thornburn's Position. Thornburn's is a result of degeneritive damage which results in lesions of the nerve roots which serve the muscles serving the triceps and other extensors of the arm. It's a result of long term degeneration in C-6 spinal injury patients.
The President's reaction was nothing more than a trauma induced firing of the motor nerves that serve the muscles of the arms. It was caused by the cavitation and impact injury of the bullet as it passed the nerve plexi leaving the sixth cervical vertebrae. It was no different, in terms of neurophysiology, than the simple reflex of the knee when tapped by the doctor's hammer. The nerve fires as a result of the stimuli, the appropriate muscles contract. As the nerve transmission velocities of the neuroanatomy in question are on the order of 180 meters per second, we should expect to see a lag of approximately .001-.004 seconds between the muscle activity on the right versus the left side of the President's upper body. Allowing that the maximum contracture speed of the large muscle groups is approximately .05 seconds to full contraction from tonal relaxation, we should see the President's right deltoid, bicep and the flexor muscles of his right forearm and hand all begin to contract sequentially starting approximately .001 seconds after impact and completing their contraction starting at approximately .006 seconds after impact. This progression would continue down the arm with essentially the same rate of progression. As JFK was in comparitively good physical and muscular condition, we would expect the larger muscle groups of the arm and shoulder to exert dominance over the smaller such as the triceps and the other extensor muscle groups.
Viewing the Zapruder film, we see exactly that, JFK's right arm begins to move before the left and his initial posture resolves with his shoulders elevated, his biceps contracting to flex the arm at the elbow, the arms rotated inward because of the anterior aspect of the deltoid, his hands "clenched".
When all is said and done, the President displayed a very typical neurophysical response to the trauma of the wound. He wasn't clutching at his throat, he was exhibiting the simple neurological overload of his motor nervous system in his upper body.
Essentially a giant charley horse caused by the bullet's impact.
Baron,
Who are you? And don't say the Baron. Truly, my only wish is that I understood your disertation on Kennedy's physical reaction to the shooting well enough to comment. Actually my real wish is that you had a cure for MS. I welcome reading more discussion between you and Cyrus.
Vince
Baron,
Who are you? And don't say the Baron. Truly, my only wish is that I understood your disertation on Kennedy's physical reaction to the shooting well enough to comment. Actually my real wish is that you had a cure for MS. I welcome reading more discussion between you and Cyrus.
Vince
Hi, Vince I'm a guy by the name of Jeff. I live in western Washington state. I ran into 2+2 after I decided to learn to play poker. I ran into this particular forum after an afternoon's boredom made me decide to dig deeper than just the "Low Limit" forum.
I've worked as a security consultant and because of that, I've spent a great deal of time studying firearms and the various ballistic sciences surrounding them. When it's all sorted out in the end, I've got a garbage mind and tend to study things to death when they interest me. The subjects surrounding terminal balistics and gunshot wounds just happened to naturally evolve from the study of self defense and client protection as it related to security matters.
Unfortunately there are a tremendous number of misconceptions surrounding firearms in general and small arms in particular. The media is in a large part responsible for this as it too often shows the victim of a gunshot being thrown violently backwards or slammed into some nearby object. The reality of it is that a bullet from a firearm that a man can fire doesn't have enough energy to knock another man off his feet on its own accord.
The human body has a thoroughly astounding set of interrelated systems. Because of their interrelation, many effects can be generated by a stimuli to one of them. In the case of a gunshot wound, the vast majority of the movement of the victim's body comes not from the impact of the bullet but from neurological trauma generating a spastic muscle contraction. While it may look to witnesses as though the victim were knocked off his feet and even feel that way to the victim himself, what's actually happening is a series of neuromuscular reactions to the sudden trauma caused by the bullet.
As a commentary on the subject, during World War I, German and British snipers were taught to observe their target's reaction to the shot. If the target jerked violently away from the shot, it was a near certainty that the bullet had missed or at most, delivered a wound that wasn't immediately disabling. When the target simply went limp and dropped out of the sniper's field of view, that was considered evidence of a solid hit.
As another example, think of the athlete who suddenly grasps at the back of his leg when he suffers a massive cramp of the quadriceps. His body bends backwards at the waist causing the spine to arch, the man collapses as the knee on the effected side flexes uncontrollably, the mans hands snap to grasp the area and he can easily appear to have been knocked off of his feet. In reality it's nothing more than a massive contraction of a large muscle group usually caused by a change in the electrolyte levels within the affected area's nervous system.
Think also of a kick to the groin. It doesn't have to be a particularly solid kick, certainly not enough to lift a person off of their feet and throw them to the ground. Yet almost without fail, they will immediately double over, their hands will snap to the injured area and often times they'll drop to their knees or fall forward onto the ground. Again it's a reaction to the stimulation of the nervous system causing the musculature to respond in a specific way.
Okay, I've rattled on enough, a bit more information that, "who is that masked man."
Jeff
Gee, you really do have a garbage mind. Righhht!
Vince
Okay, honest confusion here. Your post uses the word, "Righhht!" Is this said in humor or sarcasm or is it indicating disbelief of my statement?
Please understand that I'm not taking a shot at you, I'm fairly new to 2+2 and I'm not really familiar with the usage conventions of most of the regular posters. If you're suggesting disbeliev, I'd like to know why. If not, I apologize for not catching the sarcasm on the first pass.
Get back to me when you can, I'd appreciate clarification. FWIW, I'm not going to take your answer and use it to flame you for, "dissing", me if you are expressing disbeliefe. I'm sincerely curious. While I have many faults... okay, I really don't have any but I say I do so regular people don't hunt me down and kill me, I do try my best to post exactly what I mean to say when I post to the internet.
One of the most significant flaws in electronic communication is the lack of any of the communicative concepts outside of the explicit meaning of the written word. There's no vocal inflection, no body language, with few exceptions there's no contextual history to the post. In most cases it's a case of stranger posting to stranger and in that circumstance, there's no way for either party to understand the other person's habitual communicative foibles. Some people use the word, "right", in a way that indicates significant disbelief with no desire for elucidation or expansion of verbal intent and content. Other's use it as a friendly derogation to poke fun at the other party. Communication by the written word is horridly inefficient and frequently leads to misunderstanding.
If you don't believe me and don't care to have me expand, please tell me so. If you're just joking with me, let me know and I'll file it away for future reference.
Many thanks in advance and I sincerely hope you understand and accept that I'm not trying to "dis" you or start a flame war.
Jeff
Baron,
In fact, my whole post, including "Righhht", believe it or not, was meant as a "Compliment".
Vince
Ack... sorry for the question... it had been one of "those" days and I was a bit more testy than I'd thought... thanks for the compliment and apologies for the confusion...
Jeff
(Note to self: No more posting with a low Blood Caffeine Level.)
It's o.k. Baron. Your posts are very wecomed by me. Usually I only attack unless I believe I was attacked first. Sometimes I'm wromg. I try to admit it and correct it if possible. Sometimes I am a bit to sarcastic and sometimes people read me wrong. I don't mind being read wrong on the green felt but it does bother me some on this forum. I respect and admire quite a few of the posters here on 2 + 2 and I love the interchange. I was truly fascinated with your discussions of the ballistics concerning the Kennedy case. So .... Thanks! Vince
Besides JFK assuming Thorburn's position, there're equally plausible explanations for his body's reaction's to the 2nd shot fired by Oswald.
What is important to know is that it is really very difficult to reconstruct and explain precisely what happened. Here's, for example, what Dr. Kenneth Strully, a neurosurgeon from New Hampshire, wrote in 1994 to a conspiracy-supporter. It's very interesting :
This traumatized all structures in a 6 inch radius in all directions from the path of passage through the neck. This spread of forces occurred in a fraction of a second, traumatizing all neural structures in the immediate vicinity within a fraction of a second as determined by the speed of the missile according to ballistic studies.
As a result, contraction of the muscles innervated by nerves closest to the bullet's path took place first; -- right deltoid, left deltoid, right biceps followed by the left biceps and sequential contraction of all muscles in the forearms, hands, chest, abdominal walls and paraspinal muscle groups, with muscles in the lower extremities, farthest from the shock wave, responding last. All neural structures in the neck were stimulated at the same moment but the distance an impulse had to travel to cause muscle contractions in the hamstrings and gluteal muscles was greater, thus the motor responses in these muscles occurred much later." I understand and accepot that Case Closed is not without faults. I also accept that there're many, equally plausible explanations, as to what happened in the limo. (For example there're phycisians who firmly believe that the neuro-muscular reaction of President Kennedy is perfectly explainable, without him assuming the Thorburn position.) But the evidence which I have come across in the last years, points towards the lone gunman version, in the most persuasive manner possible.
Another source: Duncan McPherson is not just an expert on ballistics, he "wrote the book"! That's Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics and the Incapacitation Resulting From Wound Trauma. (El Segundo, CA, 1994, Ballistic Publications). The title is certainly not very appealing but this is NOT about the JFK assassination, but rather a ballistics treatise which has become a standard.
Inside are some things which throw light on many aspects of the JFK assasination. For example :
Much more to the point, here's a snippet from an interview of McPherson, which can be easily found on the web (http://www.jfk-assassination.net/macpher.htm):
MacP: You ask about deadly effect, rather than the more important incapacitation from wound trauma; I will deal with both, but only briefly (one chapter in Bullet Penetration is devoted entirely to this subject). Bullet placement is most important in either case, but there are complications. Only bullet impact that affects the central nervous system (CNS) can cause rapid physiological incapacitation. Incapacitation will not necessarily cause death (e.g., quadriplegics can live indefinitely). On the other hand, wounds that are unavoidably fatal will not necessarily cause rapid incapacitation. A bullet must penetrate deep enough to reach vital structures in the body to cause either death or physiological incapacitation.
G: It is common knowledge that, as captured by Abraham Zapruder [*], President Kennedy's head and upper torso lurch energetically immediately following the explosion of his head. Could this movement have been caused by the directly transferred momentum of a bullet? That is, can a bullet "push" somebody like that?
MacP: No, and no. The movement of a body due to bullet momentum cannot be greater than the movement of the same body if it was holding the gun that fired the bullet. This is a result of elementary physics and is not disputed by anyone who understands physics. The major frustrating feature of the Kennedy assassination phenomenon is the willingness of people to pretend to talk authoritatively on subjects they know absolutely nothing about, especially things related to firearms. This body recoil is one favorite. Another is the "puff of smoke from the grassy knoll"; the theory here seems to be that someone shot Kennedy with a flintlock (modern firearms don't make a puff of smoke on firing as black powder rounds do).
G: If the effects observed on the Zapruder film are not the result of a direct "push" by a bullet, what could account for JFK's movements?
MacP: In general, body movement in response to nervous system trauma is a result of contractions in body muscles. This is related to movements of your leg when a doctor raps you on the knee with his little mallet; your leg moves because a nerve induces a muscle contraction, not because it was driven into motion by the force of the tiny rap with the mallet. The slightly peculiar location of Kennedy's arms after the 399 bullet impact is known as Thorburn's position, after a description by Dr. William Thorburn in an 1889 paper on injuries to the area of the spinal chord damaged by bullet 399. In addition to this effect, simulations have shown that bullet strikes to the skull that result in blowing out a significant hole upon exit result in skull recoil towards the bullet entry direction. The dynamics of this are a little complicated, but are more related to the pressure inside the skull cavity created by the bullet passage than to effects directly related to the bullet movement. The dynamics of this kind of impact were demonstrated independently in testing by Dr. Luis Alvarez and by Dr. John K. Lattimer et al.
G: Have you had a chance to review the JFK-related wound ballistics work of Drs. John Lattimer and Martin Fackler? If so, can you provide a brief critique?
MacP: I have read this work and have referred to it to look up Thorburn's name in the previous answer. The main aspect of the Kennedy assassination that would surprise most people is how uncontroversial the wound ballistics aspects are among the physicians in the country who are most experienced in gunshot trauma (I am not one of these, but have talked to several). It is a sad truth that most autopsy reports are full of errors and inconsistencies which are obvious to any careful review; it shouldn't be like this, but it is. The problems with the Kennedy autopsy do not require a conspiracy to explain, they are more or less business as usual exposed to the glare of careful examination. Likewise, the work of Lattimer and Fackler is simply a very sound, complete, and careful examination and reconstruction of that facts that should be the standard in all cases, but isn't.
Some argument can be made in the typical investigation that the talent and resources just are not available to meet a first class standard, but one can hardly argue that this situation is applicable to the Warren report. The Warren commission should have used all of the best talent available to make the most complete analysis possible, but they didn't. In fairness, it is always easier to criticize than to perform.
G: Is it possible to deform a bullet the way CE399 is deformed by firing the bullet into water?
MacP: Probably not. Bullet 399 really isn't deformed much; a point often made by those who dispute the "single bullet" conclusion. The bullets used in this assassination are much more resistant to deformation than most rifle bullets. The major effect in bullet 399 is "toothpasting", i.e., a small amount of the lead core has been squeezed out of the jacket base like toothpaste from a tube. This probably occurred when the bullet hit Connally's ribs at a high yaw angle after it had been considerably slowed by travel through soft tissue (a bullet in a reconstructed firing showed deformation similar to and slightly larger than bullet 399). The bullet would yaw in water, but probably would not "toothpaste" without contact with a hard object.
G: Is the deformation of CE399 inconsistent with its having caused all of JFK's and JBC's non-fatal wounds?
MacP: No. Reconstructions prove that bullet 399 is consistent with having caused all these wounds. [ * For a breakdown of the Zapruder film, shot by shot, go to http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/history/zapruder.html]
Applause, applause, applause!
Vince
The only probkem with this analysis is that paraffin tests verify that Oswald did not fire a shot on 11-22-63.
"The only probkem with this analysis is that paraffin tests verify that Oswald did not fire a shot on 11-22-63."
Have you ever heard that you can't prove a negative?
vince
The 6.5X52 M/C cartridge is a comparitively low pressure round while the action of the rifle doesn't provide a route for escaping propellant gasses or unburnt particles to escape to the rear of the rifle.
In addition, had Oswald wiped his hands, washed his face or even perspired heavily, there wouldn't have been any gross propellant or ancillary ejecta from the action of the rifle. Given the design of the M/C rifle in question, unless samples were taken from his cheek and the area surrounding his lips on the side from which he fired, there wouldn't be anything to detect. Even then, without chromatography, spectrometry or another chemical identification method, the parafin test wouldn't have provided any identifiable combustion products.
A bolt action rifle isn't like a handgun. In the case of either a revolver or a semiautomatic, the cartridge vents combustion products and propellant ejecta into the frame or receiver of the firearm. In a semiautomatic, this is usually detectable on the trigger finger, the area between the trigger finger and the second finger and occasionally on the "ball" of the hand in equivalent positioning. If the semiautomatic is of Browning's 1911 design, then it's also generally detectable in the web of the hand at the base of the thumb and occasionally extending downwards along a line matching the rear of the grip onto the palm. If the firearm is held two handed, occasionally ejecta will be detectable on the portion of the support hand where it overlaps the area near the magazine well. It's also not uncommon to detect residue in the area of the hand near the magazine release.
On a revolver, the primary area for detecting propellant residue is on the upper surfaces of the trigger finger extending back towards the hand as well as the back of the firing hand fingers in the area between the first and second knuckles. An equivalent area will be effected on the support hand if the weapon was fired two handed. This pattern comes from the fact that a revolver has a definite gap between the end of the cylinder and the forcing cone at the near end of the barrel. The propellant emerges from this opening and exits the confines of the frame of the weapon in a stellate pattern. The upper aspects of the pattern are blocked by the topstrap of the revolver whereas the lower aspects of it hit the frame where portions can follow backwards to expand through the opening for the feed hand and then expanding through the frame, finally exiting through the opening for the trigger.
It's also important to remember that what's being checked for is a combination of unburnt propellant particles which rarely have the energy to embed themselves in the shooter's skin. In addition carbonized lubricant byproducts and actual propellant gasses are involved. In both of these cases, the particulate matter is very small and of a very low energy. It's soot for want of a better description. In most cases, simply wiping the hands on the pants will remove the vast majority of this material.
Jeff
as the Baron said, washing hands/face should obviate the test. (working on my vocab here).
i really think you should include this caveat when citing the paraffin test. its only fair.
brad
p.s. heres a cool page you probably havent seen
http://www.jfklancer.com/SSoffcar.html
murdering officer Tippet. Did he duck into some building and wash his hands after he allegedly killed Tippet?
i was speaking generally.
but i see what you mean. he cant be guilty specifically the way the warren report outlines, because there's an internal contradiction there.
brad
Cyrus,
Can you, as a favor, divine an alternative for a breakdown of the Zapruder film, shot by shot, other than http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/history/zapruder.html]? Server seems not to find it.
Thanks in advance,
Jake
.
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/history/zapruder.html]
Make sure you remember to remove the final bracket from the URL.
Notice how he forgot to put in the actual frames of the Zapruder film. Jeesh.
I think I've done a fairly good job of destroying the credibility and the accurracy of the Warren Commission Report. It isn't hard. This doesn't constitute proof of anything and the kind of stuff I'm about to conjecture about is often counter productive but I'll indulge this time. Imagine yourself being a lone assassin of the president a person that is very dedicated to killing this man. You'd have to be to put yourself in the position that Oswald put himself in where it would be fairly easy to determine you did the shooting because you bought the rifle and you work on the 6th floor. After the shooting you'd have to think your chances of getting away unconfronted would be small. Now the motorcade comes almost perpendicular to your perch right towards you and you've got a clear shot, a seemingly much easier shot than when the motorcade turns away and proceeding away from you rather than towards you. If you miss the first one, the motorcade will still be coming toward you. You choose the tougher shot. After you shoot the president you slip out of the building undetained (what a break!) proceed to a rooming house via taxi where you are staying, grab a revolver and start walking along the streets of the city where you just killed the president of the USA in broad daylight. Apparently you decide to forego any mobile transportation. On your little hike in broad daylight you decide to blow away a police officer and continue your hike. You proceed to a movie theater of all places and sit down inside the movie house. Does anyone think that this is rather odd behavior for someone who just murdered a president from a snipers nest?
You and your damned facts!
I almost wish I hadn't been too cheap to purchase the _The Men Who Killed Kennedy_ production presented on AE in a series of one hour broadcasts. It described the shooters as Corsican mafia recruited in Marsailles. Then the documentary named them, and described their clandestine entry into Texas across our pourous border with Mexico, their three week wait in a safe house after the killing, their flight to our northern border in private aircraft and their clandestine entry into Canada, from where they flew back to France. It described their payment in bulk heroin, to reinforce the notion that the assasination was a criminal, not governmental, inspiration.
With all the posting volume here I'm surprised no one mentioned it.
With all the posting volume here I'm surprised no one mentioned it." Not only did I mention it (the first one to do so, actualy, in these threads) but I also described its anti-climax! After the names were named, in the final and most gripping episode, and after the faces were shown, there followed an avalanche of lawsuits.
End result? Complete retractions and out-of-court settlements all around.
But for one brilliant night, I went to sleep convinced they had nailed the bastards.
...it's never been rebroadcast.
Damn! The guy seemed sooo certain, after having spent years in the research.
Following is a portion of the frame-by-frame analysis of the Zapruder film presented at the URL http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/history/zapruder.html kindly provided by Cyrus. The numbers in [brackets] are the frame numbers. I quote from the analysis beginning at the frame prior to the killing headshot.
My question remains: If JFK were not shot in the head with a bullet from his front, why does the wound debris travel rearward?
If you have not examined the Zapruder 8mm film clip, the most vivid direct evidence of the killing, you can procure the movie _JFK_, which contains the clip in its entirety, and examine the clip carefully. You cannot miss the sequence, and the importance of my question should be made clear. Please do not rely upon your recollection if said recollection is vague. I precise response to a precise question.
Does Zapruder's film establish that a shooter located other than in the book depository building killed the President?
------------------------------------------------------
"[312] Kennedy's head pitches forward suddenly. [313] The 161.2 grain slug, travelling at 2,100 feet per second smacks into the right occipital area of Kennedy's head, shattering the occipital bone and generating tremendous force in the flesh of the brain. The upper right side of his head explodes, blowing brains and bit of bone in an expanding pink cloud. The pieces of the parietal and temporal sections of his skull remain attached by skin, and so fall back into place, creating the appearance of an intact skull. His head lurches back to the left (8.0-8.4 seconds after the first shot) as his body stiffens suddenly from the massive neurological damage, and possibly aggravated by his back brace, or, if you wish, studies have also shown that the head flying back and to the left is also possible because of the matter ejected by the right side of his head exploding in a simple Newtonian happening. The film clearly shows the back of the head to be clean. [by 320] The two officers riding (to the left?) behind the car are splattered with bood and brains, after driving up to and passing through the cloud blown out of the President. (allegedly, a section of Kennedy's right occipital bone was found by Billy Harper, some 35 feet to the left and rear of the impact point [321] Kennedy is slumped to his left, the right parietal area of his skull completely exposed. [337] Kennedy is sliding into Mrs. Kennedy's lap, much of the flesh and bone of his skull hanging hinged by the skin. Two large bullet fragments were found in the car (44.6 and 21.0 grains = 65.6 grains) after they dented some chrome and damaged the windshield, and a "pristine" (Magic) bullet at the hospital (158.6 grains). The average weight of a 6.5 mm Carcano bullet is 161.2 grains. The six fragments removed from Connally would have weighed not more than 1.5 grains all together.
Sources:
Groden, Robert J. The Killing of a President. New York: Penguin Books, 1993.
Posner, Gerald. Case Closed, Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assasination of JFK. New York: Random Ho
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Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 11:48 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@netaxs.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 12:23 p.m.
Posted by: Bishop
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 11:04 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 5:24 a.m.
Posted by: Bush Fan
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 8:57 a.m.
Posted by: Tommy Angelo (tomium@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 10:13 a.m.
Posted by: Al Gore
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 4:28 p.m.
Posted by: JB Barnhouse
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 4:59 p.m.
Posted by: CreamPuff
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 9:35 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Brier (jbrier1@msn.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 4:24 p.m.
Posted by: LobowolfXXX (DasLobo@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 11:46 p.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 12:50 p.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 2:13 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 3:09 p.m.
Posted by: JB Barnhouse
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 3:18 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 3:20 p.m.
Posted by: MercuryTide (radontide@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 7:57 p.m.
Posted by: GD (boopotts@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 9:46 p.m.
Posted by: Tommy Angelo (tomium@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 11:25 p.m.
Posted by: JB Barnhouse
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 12:20 a.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 3:17 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 5:36 p.m.
Posted by: Kevin J
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 10:53 p.m.
Posted by: Kevin J
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 10:55 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 4:40 p.m.
Posted by: JB Barnhouse
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 4:46 p.m.
Posted by: IdiotVig (mamps@mindspring.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 5:08 p.m.
Posted by: LobowolfXXX (DasLobo@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 11:41 p.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 5:19 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 5:26 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 5:41 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 7:03 p.m.
Posted by: GD (boopotts@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 6:33 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 6:53 p.m.
Posted by: Phat Mack (phat_mack@bigfoot.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 7:22 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 8:06 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 4:50 p.m.
Posted by: Reservoir Dog
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 12:41 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 1:25 p.m.
Posted by: Reservoir Dog
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 5:13 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 11:02 a.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 4:37 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 9:01 a.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 9:37 a.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 9:48 a.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 9:58 a.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 2:45 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 1:36 p.m.
Posted by: Nazis must die now
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 1:33 p.m.
Posted by: LobowolfXXX (DasLobo@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 2:57 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 1:50 p.m.
Posted by: Dr Wogga (dwogga@woggawogga.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 10:49 a.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 2:25 p.m.
Posted by: Dr Wogga (dwogga@woggawogga.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 4:30 p.m.
Posted by: Lilly White
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 11:12 p.m.
Posted by: Nazis must die now
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 1:27 p.m.
Posted by: Dr Wogga (dwogga@woggawogga.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 4:06 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 1:58 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 3:06 p.m.
Posted by: Nazis must die now
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 3:29 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 4:34 p.m.
Posted by: Nazis must die now
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 5:46 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 9:00 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 11:40 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 6:54 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 9:05 a.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 1:38 p.m.
Posted by: LobowolfXXX (DasLobo@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 4:13 a.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 9:27 a.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 5:02 p.m.
Posted by: ty00889
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 8:39 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 12:54 p.m.
Posted by: Dan D.
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 6:11 p.m.
Posted by: *yawn*
Posted on: Tuesday, 12 June 2001, at 8:09 p.m.
Posted by: Dan D.
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 4:53 a.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 2:50 a.m.
Posted by: Tommy Angelo (tomium@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 4:03 a.m.
Posted by: scalf
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 4:40 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 8:31 a.m.
Posted by: 12 Volt Man (vailpoker@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 1:12 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 2:18 p.m.
Posted by: Mark Heide (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 12:07 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 12:38 a.m.
Posted by: Michael D (MichaelD8@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 12:52 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 1:43 p.m.
Posted by: JB Barnhouse
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 2:10 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 2:14 p.m.
Posted by: Gus
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 5:33 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 7:51 a.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 11:56 a.m.
Posted by: Jake
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 2:33 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Browder (jbrowder@totalzone.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 4:29 p.m.
Posted by: Jake
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 5:28 p.m.
Posted by: Tommy Angelo (tomium@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 8:33 p.m.
Posted by: SCOTT S
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 5:10 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 6:33 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Friday, 15 June 2001, at 12:01 a.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 15 June 2001, at 11:42 p.m.
Posted by: Jake
Posted on: Saturday, 16 June 2001, at 6:34 a.m.
Posted by: RWM (rwm711@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 12:10 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 4:19 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 3:53 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Brier (jbrier1@msn.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 9:17 p.m.
Posted by: Reservoir Dog
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 5:08 p.m.
Posted by: 2d (matti2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 5:16 p.m.
Posted by: Adam (checkraise@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 15 June 2001, at 12:32 a.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 16 June 2001, at 7:26 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 8:50 p.m.
Posted by: LobowolfXXX
Posted on: Wednesday, 13 June 2001, at 11:35 p.m.
Posted by: JAWZ
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 12:26 a.m.
Posted by: ronzoni (ronzoni89@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 3:40 a.m.
Posted by: Jeff
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 12:36 a.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 7:38 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 12:06 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 3:00 p.m.
Posted by: Phat Mack
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 5:25 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 6:30 p.m.
Posted by: Joe Lott (joelott@wam.umd.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 11:17 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 1:16 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 8:02 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 4:01 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 10:36 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 1:48 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 7:32 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 12:17 a.m.
Posted by: Lurker from Turning Stone
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 1:28 p.m.
Posted by: KNUT
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 1:22 p.m.
Posted by: KNUT
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 2:34 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 2:50 p.m.
Posted by: LobowolfXXX (DasLobo@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 3:53 p.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 11:54 p.m.
Posted by: KNUT
Posted on: Friday, 15 June 2001, at 12:06 a.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Friday, 15 June 2001, at 8:02 a.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 16 June 2001, at 5:07 a.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Saturday, 16 June 2001, at 1:34 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 16 June 2001, at 7:14 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 17 June 2001, at 2:24 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 17 June 2001, at 2:36 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Browder (jbrowder@totalzone.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 3:32 p.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 7:26 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 8:09 p.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 8:58 p.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 8:43 p.m.
Posted by: natedogg (nate-web@thegrovers.com)
Posted on: Friday, 15 June 2001, at 9:48 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 15 June 2001, at 11:03 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 14 June 2001, at 9:08 p.m.
Posted by: Michael D (MichaelD8@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 12:46 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Friday, 15 June 2001, at 7:46 a.m.
Posted by: counterfieter
Posted on: Friday, 15 June 2001, at 12:08 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Friday, 15 June 2001, at 12:25 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Friday, 15 June 2001, at 1:38 p.m.
Posted by: Gus
Posted on: Friday, 15 June 2001, at 12:15 p.m.
Posted by: Martin D.
Posted on: Friday, 15 June 2001, at 3:58 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Friday, 15 June 2001, at 5:07 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Saturday, 16 June 2001, at 6:25 a.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 16 June 2001, at 11:11 a.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Saturday, 16 June 2001, at 1:31 p.m.
Posted by: Dan D.
Posted on: Saturday, 16 June 2001, at 3:34 a.m.
Posted by: Bishop
Posted on: Saturday, 16 June 2001, at 2:23 p.m.
Posted by: Bill (BillE757@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 16 June 2001, at 4:01 p.m.
Posted by: Bishop
Posted on: Saturday, 16 June 2001, at 9:11 p.m.
Posted by: Bill (BillE757@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 17 June 2001, at 12:55 a.m.
Posted by: Bishop
Posted on: Sunday, 17 June 2001, at 11:26 p.m.
Posted by: Paul T.
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 6:56 p.m.
Posted by: Bishop
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 8:13 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 1:00 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 16 June 2001, at 3:08 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 17 June 2001, at 10:39 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 8:31 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 12:59 a.m.
Posted by: Alan Rast (allywack@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 16 June 2001, at 4:03 p.m.
Posted by: Dan D.
Posted on: Sunday, 17 June 2001, at 10:12 a.m.
Posted by: travlinmatt (travlinmatt6@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 17 June 2001, at 11:53 a.m.
Posted by: Dan D.
Posted on: Sunday, 17 June 2001, at 5:19 p.m.
Posted by: Paul T.
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 6:43 p.m.
Posted by: Alden Chase (tyro) (tyro@socal.rr.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 1:41 p.m.
Posted by: Dave Waters (davewaters@rocketmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 12:07 p.m.
Posted by: David Ottosen (dottosen@powersurfr.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 1:09 p.m.
Posted by: Husker Du
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 4:49 p.m.
Posted by: Reservoir Dog
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 5:20 p.m.
Posted by: LobowolfXXX (DasLobo@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 5:32 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 5:57 p.m.
Posted by: High Desert Poker Man
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 7:45 p.m.
Posted by: Christine G (cgono368@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 5:10 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 5:50 p.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 6:09 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Brier (jbrier1@msn.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 6:19 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 6:24 p.m.
Posted by: Peggy
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 3:43 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 8:01 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 8:17 p.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 2:29 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 10:05 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 8:25 a.m.
Posted by: Tommy Angelo (tomium@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 5:11 p.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 6:51 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 2:32 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Brier (jbrier1@msn.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 6:08 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@netaxs.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 6:26 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 6:33 p.m.
Posted by: nick
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 10:23 p.m.
Posted by: Lurker from Turning Stone
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 1:42 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Brier (jbrier1@msn.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 7:20 p.m.
Posted by: Paul T.
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 2:07 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Brier (jbrier1@msn.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 7:23 p.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 9:13 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 11:04 p.m.
Posted by: ty00889
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 12:35 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Brier (jbrier1@msn.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 2:28 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 2:40 a.m.
Posted by: scalf
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 7:36 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 8:13 p.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 8:21 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 8:42 p.m.
Posted by: Phat Mack (phat_mack@bigfoot.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 5:26 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 10:14 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 10:41 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 7:34 p.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 3:53 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 6:30 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 18 June 2001, at 8:30 p.m.
Posted by: Paul T.
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 1:22 p.m.
Posted by: bruce (bru7ce@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 2:34 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 4:43 p.m.
Posted by: Paul T.
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 5:10 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 10:10 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 1:32 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 9:29 p.m.
Posted by: ronzoni (ronzoni89@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 1:36 p.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 5:28 p.m.
Posted by: Bishop
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 10:42 p.m.
Posted by: ronzoni (ronzoni89@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 1:46 p.m.
Posted by: Eeyore
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 4:10 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 4:18 p.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 4:24 p.m.
Posted by: Eeyore
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 4:39 p.m.
Posted by: Dave Fancher (mtndave@pacbell.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 1:50 a.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 10:21 a.m.
Posted by: Husker Du
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 6:19 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 7:21 p.m.
Posted by: backdoor
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 6:20 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Brier (jbrier1@msn.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 7:32 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 11:17 p.m.
Posted by: Crouching Dragon
Posted on: Tuesday, 19 June 2001, at 8:04 p.m.
Posted by: Phat Mack (phat_mack@bigfoot.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 4:15 a.m.
Posted by: LobowolfXXX (DasLobo@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 1:29 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Brier (jbrier1@msn.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 2:05 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 4:19 p.m.
Posted by: LobowolfXXX (DasLobo@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 5:21 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Brier (jbrier1@msn.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 8:51 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 2:04 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Brier (jbrier1@msn.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 2:01 p.m.
Posted by: Bishop
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 10:38 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 8:25 a.m.
Posted by: Yorkie (stephenjowitt@spj740783.fsnet.co.uk)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 9:49 p.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 1:43 p.m.
Posted by: yorkie
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 9:16 p.m.
Posted by: The Baron (x012358@icqmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 1:34 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 2:19 a.m.
Posted by: Phat Mack (phat_mack@bigfoot.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 4:01 a.m.
Posted by: JAWZ
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 5:02 a.m.
Posted by: Phat Mack (phat_mack@bigfoot.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 7:33 p.m.
Posted by: JAWZ
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 9:38 p.m.
Posted by: JAWZ
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 4:45 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 4:56 a.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 12:02 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 1:12 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 1:44 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Brier (jbrier1@msn.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 1:56 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 2:36 p.m.
Posted by: JAWZ
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 6:11 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 7:32 a.m.
Posted by: Gil Scott (merlin2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 3:29 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 7:52 a.m.
Posted by: jello (jbrowder@totalzone.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 11:43 a.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 3:47 p.m.
Posted by: LobowolfXXX (DasLobo@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 1:26 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 3:53 p.m.
Posted by: JAWZ
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 6:09 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Brier (jbrier1@msn.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 8:46 p.m.
Posted by: JAWZ
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 9:21 p.m.
Posted by: backdoor
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 4:23 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 5:27 p.m.
Posted by: Gil Scott (merlin2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 3:28 p.m.
Posted by: Michael D (MichaelD8@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 5:46 a.m.
Posted by: Soh
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 6:40 a.m.
Posted by: KNUT
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 12:59 a.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 11:35 p.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 2:57 p.m.
Posted by: Tommy Angelo (tomium@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 4:37 p.m.
Posted by: Martin D.
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 5:23 p.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 5:21 p.m.
Posted by: Michael D (MichaelD8@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 2:46 a.m.
Posted by: Phat Mack (phat_mack@bigfoot.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 8:11 a.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 10:51 a.m.
Posted by: Kevin J
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 11:36 a.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 3:40 p.m.
Posted by: Nick G.
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 12:44 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 1:36 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 1:48 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 2:30 p.m.
Posted by: clinteroo (csharcourt@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 3:59 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 24 June 2001, at 8:25 p.m.
1) Olympic Gardens
2) Crazy Horse 2
3) Palomino
1) Glitter Gulch
2) Rundown nudie juice bars like CanCan
3) The $10k-$20k game at the Bellagio.
1) Asian MPs in Chinatown
2) Rum Jungle @ Mandalay Bay
3) (and for those on a budget) Windowshopping the supertalent at MGM for example and when you get back to your room saying, "oh, you want $800? I thought you _liked_ me!"
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 1:23 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@netaxs.com)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 5:15 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 3:17 p.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 4:55 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 6:15 p.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 5:32 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 5:52 p.m.
Posted by: High Desert Poker Man
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 6:27 p.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 7:18 p.m.
Posted by: High Desert Poker Man
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 8:14 p.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 8:40 p.m.
Posted by: High Desert Poker Man
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 11:51 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 3:52 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 11:13 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 11:32 p.m.
Posted by: Ed I
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 12:00 a.m.
Posted by: One Tooth Willy
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 5:33 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 5:43 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 12:21 a.m.
Posted by: David Ottosen (dottosen@powersurfr.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 6:05 p.m.
2) if the poor person has debt (which he must in order to have net worth of <0), what interest rate is being charged? If interest is in excess of inflation, the real value of his debt is increasing faster than the real value of each new dollar he earns
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 7:31 p.m.
Posted by: Husker Du
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 3:18 p.m.
Posted by: Talbot (talbot@colorado.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 2:36 p.m.
Posted by: Scoot
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 6:40 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 20 June 2001, at 7:30 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 8:55 a.m.
Posted by: ty00889
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 3:56 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Brier (jbrier1@msn.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 1:52 p.m.
Posted by: LobowolfXXX (DasLobo@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 7:36 p.m.
Posted by: Ed I
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 10:22 a.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 2:41 p.m.
Posted by: Ed I
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 5:27 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 8:15 p.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 6:25 p.m.
Posted by: Ed I
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 7:49 p.m.
Posted by: ronzoni (ronzoni89@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 1:49 p.m.
Posted by: Talbot (talbot@colorado.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 2:44 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 8:44 a.m.
Posted by: jello (jbrowder@totalzone.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 11:36 a.m.
Posted by: Cooler
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 2:10 p.m.
Posted by: Phat Mack (phat_mack@bigfoot.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 7:21 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 8:40 a.m.
Posted by: Marshal (marshal@marshalone.gvt)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 2:48 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 3:31 p.m.
Posted by: Paul T.
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 4:52 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 4:16 p.m.
Posted by: jim browder (jbrowder@totalzone.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 5:00 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 21 June 2001, at 8:32 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 6:13 a.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 7:29 a.m.
Posted by: jim browder (jbrowder@totalzone.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 11:30 a.m.
Posted by: Ed I
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 12:24 p.m.
Posted by: High Desert Poker Man
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 12:53 p.m.
Posted by: Ed I
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 1:57 p.m.
Posted by: High Desert Poker Man
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 12:47 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 1:09 p.m.
Posted by: High Desert Poker Man
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 1:28 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 3:50 p.m.
Posted by: High Desert Poker Man
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 4:38 p.m.
Posted by: Ed I
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 10:48 p.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 1:42 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 24 June 2001, at 12:31 p.m.
Posted by: Nazis must die now
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 2:02 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 2:17 p.m.
Posted by: Bishop
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 9:56 p.m.
Posted by: Nazis must die now
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 12:59 a.m.
Posted by: Bishop
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 10:43 p.m.
Posted by: natedogg (nate-web@thegrovers.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 3:13 a.m.
Posted by: Gus
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 3:39 a.m.
Posted by: Mike (mike_44_b@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 4:16 p.m.
Posted by: Nazis must die now
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 5:57 p.m.
Posted by: Samual (Sam_man@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 9:50 p.m.
Posted by: Nazis must die now
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 12:56 a.m.
Posted by: natedogg (nate-web@thegrovers.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 2:36 a.m.
Posted by: scalf
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 5:22 a.m.
Posted by: LobowolfXXX (DasLobo@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 3:58 p.m.
Posted by: Nazis must die now
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 4:41 p.m.
Posted by: natedogg (nate-web@thegrovers.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 24 June 2001, at 6:13 p.m.
Posted by: roGER (Roger_kirkham@Datawatch.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 1:49 p.m.
Posted by: Bishop
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 9:51 p.m.
Posted by: Ted D.
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 7:01 a.m.
Posted by: natedogg (nate-web@thegrovers.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 1:20 p.m.
Posted by: Ted D.
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 9:19 p.m.
Posted by: natedogg (nate-web@thegrovers.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 24 June 2001, at 4:26 a.m.
Posted by: Nazis must die now
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 4:44 p.m.
Posted by: Ted D.
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 8:59 p.m.
Posted by: Wake Up
Posted on: Sunday, 24 June 2001, at 12:55 p.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 8:47 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 10:37 a.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 12:42 p.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 10:07 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 7:18 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 9:06 a.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 12:37 p.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 11:34 p.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 12:09 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 1:31 p.m.
Posted by: Dan Osman (enderw19@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 1:38 p.m.
Posted by: Wake Up
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 6:56 p.m.
Posted by: The Baron (x012358@icqmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 3:56 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 4:18 a.m.
Posted by: The Baron (x012358@icqmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 7:18 p.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 8:38 p.m.
Posted by: The Baron (x012358@icqmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 3:04 a.m.
Posted by: The Baron (x012358@icqmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 3:43 a.m.
Posted by: The Baron (x012358@icqmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 3:31 a.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 6:22 p.m.
Posted by: The Baron (x012358@icqmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 6:38 a.m.
Posted by: jello (jbrowder@totalzone.com)
Posted on: Friday, 22 June 2001, at 10:39 p.m.
Posted by: D L Duffer
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 9:26 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 2:09 p.m.
Posted by: Tom X
Posted on: Saturday, 23 June 2001, at 4:50 p.m.
Posted by: counterfieter
Posted on: Sunday, 24 June 2001, at 2:39 a.m.
Posted by: opp
Posted on: Sunday, 24 June 2001, at 1:38 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 11:24 a.m.
Posted by: mike l. (sdf@sd.com)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 1:47 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Rivett (jrivett@inreach.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 8:11 p.m.
Posted by: Lurker from TS
Posted on: Sunday, 24 June 2001, at 10:58 a.m.
Posted by: Kevin J
Posted on: Sunday, 24 June 2001, at 10:27 p.m.
Posted by: Lurker from TS
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 12:08 a.m.
Posted by: Mark Glover
Posted on: Sunday, 24 June 2001, at 5:06 p.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 8:42 p.m.
Posted by: Dieter
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 10:42 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 11:45 p.m.
Posted by: Al Gore (Inventor of the Internet)
Posted on: Sunday, 24 June 2001, at 6:17 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 11:15 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 24 June 2001, at 8:18 p.m.
Posted by: Michael D (MichaelD8@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 5:50 a.m.
Posted by: jello (jbrowder@totalzone.com)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 11:03 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 12:42 p.m.
Posted by: Talbot (talbot@colorado.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 4:02 p.m.
Posted by: Jason (gamblingstuff@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 4:39 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 5:01 p.m.
Posted by: scalf (ae11@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 7:38 p.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 7:56 p.m.
Posted by: Ben S.
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 1:24 a.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 1:58 p.m.
Posted by: Bishop
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 4:14 p.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 6:31 p.m.
Posted by: opp
Posted on: Monday, 25 June 2001, at 8:04 p.m.
Posted by: Mississippi Gambler
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 1:57 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 6:41 a.m.
Posted by: Michael D (MichaelD8@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 7:24 a.m.
Posted by: scalf
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 7:41 a.m.
Posted by: scalf (ae11@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 7:37 a.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 3:29 p.m.
Posted by: David Ottosen (dottosen@powersurfr.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 4:33 p.m.
Posted by: Dan C (dannyc12@bitstream.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 4:36 p.m.
Posted by: Michael D (MichaelD8@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 7:53 a.m.
Posted by: Adam
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 9:28 a.m.
Posted by: travlinmatt (travlinmatt6@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 10:21 a.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 2:14 p.m.
Posted by: Phat Mack (phat_mack@bigfoot.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 5:57 p.m.
Posted by: LobowolfXXX (DasLobo@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 2:19 p.m.
Posted by: Larry (lgrubart@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 5:42 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 2:19 a.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 2:33 a.m.
Posted by: russ
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 5:08 p.m.
Posted by: Jonesey (seanc1961@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 6:59 p.m.
Posted by: chris (luna393@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 12:26 a.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 11:32 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 2:56 p.m.
Posted by: Michael D (MichaelD8@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 7:41 a.m.
Posted by: Ed I
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 10:33 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 11:02 a.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 1:56 p.m.
Posted by: High Desert Poker Man
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 12:00 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 3:13 a.m.
Posted by: High Desert Poker Man
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 12:53 p.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 3:15 p.m.
Posted by: High Desert Poker Man
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 4:35 p.m.
Posted by: Ed I
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 9:29 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 11:23 p.m.
Posted by: High Desert Poker Man
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 4:15 p.m.
Posted by: Husker Du
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 11:50 a.m.
Posted by: Talbot (talbot@colorado.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 2:02 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 8:29 p.m.
Posted by: zzzzzz (ray@shano.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 8:02 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@primenet.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 8:16 p.m.
Posted by: Kim Lee
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 7:25 p.m.
Posted by: Zen
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 10:19 p.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 26 June 2001, at 11:47 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 12:50 a.m.
Posted by: Kevin J
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 1:55 a.m.
Posted by: joe
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 2:20 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 8:19 p.m.
Posted by: JB Barnhouse
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 9:41 a.m.
Posted by: Kissenger
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 1:50 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Springfield
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 3:04 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 6:25 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 10:49 a.m.
Posted by: Larry G (lgrubart@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 2:25 p.m.
Posted by: Michael D (MichaelD8@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 7:43 a.m.
Posted by: cheese
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 6:37 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 7:45 p.m.
Posted by: Dr Wogga (dwogga@woggawogga.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 9:50 a.m.
Posted by: cheese
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 2:16 p.m.
Posted by: Ratso
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 2:35 p.m.
Posted by: Dr Wogga (dwogga@woggawogga.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 6:19 p.m.
Posted by: fezzik
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 9:44 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 11:33 a.m.
Posted by: Talbot (talbot@colorado.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 2:47 p.m.
Posted by: jj
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 9:24 p.m.
Posted by: Alden Chase (tyro) (tyro@socal.rr.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 12:21 a.m.
Posted by: O.J. Running Back
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 7:24 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 27 June 2001, at 7:43 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 12:53 a.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 11:01 a.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 11:38 a.m.
Posted by: Mitch Cumstein
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 11:24 a.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 1:53 p.m.
Posted by: Seykota
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 2:33 p.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 2:45 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 2:38 p.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 2:46 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 11:02 p.m.
Posted by: Kevin J
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 1:11 a.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 2:32 a.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 1:04 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 1:44 p.m.
Posted by: Kevin J
Posted on: Saturday, 30 June 2001, at 3:52 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 30 June 2001, at 1:03 p.m.
Posted by: JAWZ
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 2:44 p.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 8:36 p.m.
Posted by: jellow (jbrowder@totalzone.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 8:57 p.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 6:14 a.m.
Posted by: Michael Davis (parlement@msn.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 6:29 a.m.
Posted by: mississippi gambler
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 5:49 a.m.
Posted by: Talbot (talbot@colorado.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 2:40 p.m.
Posted by: ATWOOD
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 5:23 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 10:11 p.m.
Posted by: ATWOOD
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 10:53 p.m.
Posted by: High Desert Poker Man
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 7:35 p.m.
Posted by: Howard Burroughs
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 11:16 p.m.
Posted by: ATWOOD
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 12:22 p.m.
Posted by: Howard Burroughs
Posted on: Saturday, 30 June 2001, at 8:55 a.m.
Posted by: A9 suited
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 5:53 p.m.
Posted by: Jim Brier (jbrier1@msn.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 5:50 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 6:01 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 7:17 p.m.
Posted by: Jellow (jbrowder@totalzone.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 9:53 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 11:54 p.m.
Posted by: Jellow (jbrowder@totalzone.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 30 June 2001, at 12:05 a.m.
Posted by: Frankie
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 9:45 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 10:37 p.m.
Posted by: Jellow (jbrowder@totalzone.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 12:38 a.m.
Posted by: Frankie
Posted on: Saturday, 30 June 2001, at 1:55 a.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 30 June 2001, at 11:34 a.m.
Posted by: Jellow (jbrowder@totalzone.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 9:55 p.m.
Posted by: backdoor
Posted on: Thursday, 28 June 2001, at 11:49 p.m.
Posted by: scalf
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 4:39 a.m.
Posted by: backdoor
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 7:56 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 5:23 a.m.
Posted by: backdoor
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 7:53 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 30 June 2001, at 2:10 a.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 2:12 a.m.
Posted by: Michael D (MichaelD8@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 6:52 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 12:44 p.m.
Posted by: Michael D (MichaelD8@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 6:18 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 1:10 a.m.
Posted by: Kevin J
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 2:29 a.m.
Posted by: Michael D (MichaelD8@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 7:35 a.m.
Posted by: Michael D (MichaelD8@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 7:23 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 2:12 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 11:00 p.m.
Posted by: The Midnight Marauder
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 2:35 a.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 1:08 p.m.
Posted by: Steve M.
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 10:59 a.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 30 June 2001, at 11:49 a.m.
Posted by: scalf
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 10:31 p.m.
Posted by: Michael Davis (parlement@msn.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 6:17 a.m.
Posted by: Steve M.
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 7:28 p.m.
Posted by: The Baron (x012358@icqmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 7:20 p.m.
Posted by: KNUT
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 5:04 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 30 June 2001, at 2:09 a.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 29 June 2001, at 10:11 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 30 June 2001, at 2:12 a.m.
Posted by: Michael 7
Posted on: Saturday, 30 June 2001, at 2:02 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 30 June 2001, at 3:45 p.m.
Posted by: scalf
Posted on: Saturday, 30 June 2001, at 7:30 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 1:39 a.m.
Posted by: nate foster
Posted on: Saturday, 30 June 2001, at 9:24 p.m.
Posted by: Dan D.
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 4:04 a.m.
Posted by: Chuck Weinstock (weinstock@conjelco.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 7:16 a.m.
Posted by: Hu Flung Poo
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 9:36 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 6:03 p.m.
Posted by: Talbot (talbot@colorado.edu)
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 10:10 p.m.
Posted by: mississippi gambler
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 2:37 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 6:50 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 11:07 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 1:34 a.m.
Posted by: Michael D (MichaelD8@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 7:05 a.m.
Posted by: Kevin J
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 7:36 a.m.
Posted by: Kevin J
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 7:37 a.m.
Posted by: Larry (lgrubart@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 10:36 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 10:55 p.m.
Posted by: Ed I
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 11:45 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 12:12 p.m.
Posted by: Ed I
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 9:02 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 11:21 p.m.
Posted by: Ed I
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 3:24 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 9:44 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 11:40 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 1:21 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 11:31 a.m.
Posted by: Flats (flats@amigo.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 12:05 p.m.
Posted by: Boris (hiboris@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 3:21 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 12:48 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 7:48 p.m.
Posted by: High Desert Poker Man
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 12:38 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 10:24 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 1 July 2001, at 11:11 p.m.
Posted by: DeadBart (deadbart@cornell.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 12:40 a.m.
Posted by: ronzoni (ronzoni89@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 12:41 a.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 1:41 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 6:54 a.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 1:38 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 3:46 p.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 3:59 p.m.
Posted by: Michael D (MichaelD8@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 9:09 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 11:15 p.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 11:56 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 12:45 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 7:26 a.m.
Posted by: AcesFull
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 7:46 a.m.
Posted by: mississippi gambler
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 3:03 p.m.
Posted by: Mid-Atlantic Player
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 5:47 p.m.
Posted by: Talbot (talbot@colorado.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 7:44 p.m.
Posted by: Mid-Atlantic Player
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 1:12 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 1:25 p.m.
Posted by: Mid-Atlantic Player
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 4:48 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 5:53 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 3:36 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 6:44 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 6:32 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 6:37 p.m.
Posted by: High Desert Poker Man
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 7:42 p.m.
Posted by: Ed I
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 9:23 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 11:10 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 12:36 a.m.
Posted by: Ed I
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 3:08 a.m.
Posted by: High Desert Poker Man
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 12:35 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Monday, 2 July 2001, at 10:33 p.m.
Posted by: Adam (checkraise@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 2:17 a.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 11:07 p.m.
Posted by: DeadBart (deadbart@cornell.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 4:25 a.m.
Posted by: bitchass
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 4:44 a.m.
Posted by: cheese
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 3:32 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 11:38 a.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 10:54 a.m.
Posted by: jellow (jbrowder@totalzone.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 11:04 a.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 11:39 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 11:36 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 11:46 a.m.
Posted by: Jake
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 12:42 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 3:59 p.m.
Posted by: Michael D (MichaelD8@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 6:13 a.m.
Posted by: curious
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 12:04 p.m.
Posted by: The Baron (x012358@icqmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 6:21 a.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 4:16 p.m.
Posted by: Burt
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 12:16 p.m.
Posted by: Dr Wogga (dwogga@woggawogga.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 1:39 p.m.
Posted by: SmoothB
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 2:03 p.m.
Posted by: Ivan (BoticIvan@att.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 12:54 a.m.
Posted by: Talbot (talbot@colorado.edu)
Posted on: Tuesday, 3 July 2001, at 4:01 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 3:25 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 4:59 a.m.
Posted by: Dan D.
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 9:08 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 3:01 p.m.
Posted by: bitchass
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 5:26 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 9:49 a.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 11:44 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 10:37 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 1:53 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 10:43 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 11:57 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 3:16 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 7:59 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 8:15 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 1:51 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 7:39 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 11:38 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 1:22 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 1:55 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 2:01 a.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 12:11 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 9:08 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 10:30 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 9:25 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 2:09 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 8:29 a.m.
Posted by: John Feeney
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 4:23 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 8:29 p.m.
Posted by: John Feeney
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 3:04 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 4:01 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 10:26 a.m.
Posted by: PhattyDredMasta
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 2:36 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 3:03 p.m.
Posted by: KNUT
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 3:12 p.m.
Posted by: Bobby (youtalkfunny@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 5:11 p.m.
Posted by: mississippi gambler
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 8:24 p.m.
Posted by: KNUT
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 3:01 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 6:44 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 2:08 a.m.
Posted by: KNUT
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 8:59 a.m.
Posted by: Steve M.
Posted on: Wednesday, 4 July 2001, at 11:11 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 1:25 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 2:37 a.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 8:33 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 11:06 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 5:20 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 5:50 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 8:48 a.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 9:23 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 3:23 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 3:29 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 7:29 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 7:56 p.m.
Posted by: JB Barnhouse
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 9:26 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 9:46 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 10:27 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 11:01 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 7:38 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 7:48 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 10:09 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 10:14 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 12:18 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 2:06 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 10:27 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 10:16 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 12:14 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 12:19 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 8:26 a.m.
Posted by: JB Barnhouse
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 11:01 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 11:09 a.m.
Posted by: JB Barnhouse
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 11:24 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 4:00 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 2:42 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 3:38 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 3:55 p.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 4:36 p.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 8:32 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 7:41 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 7:54 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 5:39 a.m.
Posted by: Ted D.
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 10:46 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 1:07 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 12:20 a.m.
Posted by: Jake Jacobs (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 12:02 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 12:51 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 7:41 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 2:49 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 4:12 a.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 8:30 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 11:36 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 12:54 p.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 2:31 p.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 10:00 a.m.
Posted by: mississippi gambler
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 6:26 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 11:43 a.m.
Posted by: JB Barnhouse
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 12:18 p.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 12:39 p.m.
Posted by: JB Barnhouse
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 2:05 p.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 2:35 p.m.
Posted by: Ted D.
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 10:04 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 10:10 p.m.
Posted by: Ted D.
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 11:36 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 5:38 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 10:20 a.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 12:47 p.m.
Posted by: SmoothB
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 2:12 p.m.
Posted by: pokerbratt (sdbratt@netscape.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 3:26 p.m.
Posted by: SmoothB
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 4:03 p.m.
Posted by: mississippi gambler
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 6:20 a.m.
Posted by: SmoothB
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 12:08 p.m.
Posted by: mississippi gambler
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 8:32 p.m.
Posted by: SmoothB
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 2:25 p.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 6:28 p.m.
Posted by: mississippi gambler
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 6:24 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 7:30 p.m.
Posted by: KNUT
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 8:59 p.m.
Posted by: Bobby (youtalkfunny@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 10:30 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 2:56 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 3:10 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 4:40 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 7:34 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 11:32 p.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 5 July 2001, at 11:30 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 1:59 a.m.
Posted by: KNUT
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 2:19 a.m.
Posted by: Jim Brier (jbrier1@msn.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 3:30 a.m.
Posted by: tom (tom@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 2:35 a.m.
Posted by: KNUT
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 2:58 a.m.
Posted by: Rodney
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 3:04 a.m.
Posted by: tom (tom@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 3:56 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 4:08 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 4:16 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 4:23 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 4:10 a.m.
Posted by: tom (tom@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 4:26 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 4:38 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 10:23 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 2:29 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 3:26 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 9:56 p.m.
Posted by: The Baron (x012358@icqmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 7:08 p.m.
Posted by: Ed I
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 4:05 a.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 10:35 a.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 12:17 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 2:27 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 3:22 p.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 2:46 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 3:24 p.m.
Posted by: The Baron (x012358@icqmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 6:42 p.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 6:51 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 3:17 p.m.
Posted by: Scott
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 1:26 p.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 3:05 p.m.
Posted by: SmoothB
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 5:19 p.m.
Posted by: The Baron (x012358@icqmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 6:37 p.m.
Posted by: Ed I
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 9:09 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 12:32 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 12:00 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 1:12 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 2:34 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 3:21 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 12:11 a.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 8:12 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 9:52 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Fox (andy@frenchcraft.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 2:14 a.m.
Posted by: Paul Feeney
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 2:59 p.m.
Posted by: The Baron (x012358@icqmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 6:51 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 12:02 a.m.
Posted by: 2d (matti2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 1:27 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 2:43 a.m.
Posted by: 2d (matti2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 12:15 a.m.
Posted by: MB
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 3:20 p.m.
Posted by: Just another egg (rockin'.it.down.hard@valleyofpatience.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 5:27 p.m.
Posted by: 3 Bet Brett (fourflushr@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 10:17 p.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 3:31 p.m.
Posted by: Big John (jhartz@jps.net)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 6:13 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 7:48 p.m.
Posted by: BillM
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 8:01 p.m.
Posted by: Goat (PunkRok777@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 9:20 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 8:18 p.m.
Posted by: scalf
Posted on: Friday, 6 July 2001, at 8:51 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 11:57 a.m.
Posted by: scalf
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 2:22 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 12:35 a.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 12:03 p.m.
Posted by: mississippi gambler
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 5:43 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 11:17 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 1:11 p.m.
Posted by: mississippi gambler
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 8:12 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 12:21 p.m.
Posted by: mississippi gambler
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 3:52 p.m.
Posted by: scalf (ae11@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 4:33 p.m.
Posted by: Burt
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 2:09 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 2:48 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 2:27 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 4:03 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 1:25 a.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 1:59 a.m.
Posted by: Mark Heide (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 6:52 p.m.
Posted by: Flats (flats@amigo.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 6:12 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 1:51 a.m.
Posted by: Ed I
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 2:50 a.m.
Posted by: Flats (flats@amigo.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 5:56 a.m.
Posted by: Ed I
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 11:22 p.m.
Posted by: Flats (flats@amigo.net)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 12:52 a.m.
Posted by: 2d (matti2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 12:11 a.m.
Posted by: Flats (flats@amigo.net)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 12:44 a.m.
Posted by: Ben S.
Posted on: Saturday, 7 July 2001, at 11:33 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 7:05 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 5:23 p.m.
Posted by: Alden Chase (tyro) (tyro@socal.rr.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 6:24 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 7:20 p.m.
Posted by: ostar_the doorman
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 7:33 p.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 1:20 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 1:49 a.m.
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 3:05 p.m.
Posted by: Ray Zee
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 1:54 a.m.
Posted by: scalf
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 7:55 a.m.
Posted by: Mark Heide (maheide@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 6:41 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 5:05 a.m.
Posted by: clinteroo (csharcourt@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 7:47 a.m.
Posted by: Rick Nebiolo (ricknebiolo@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 4:26 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 9:48 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 2:54 a.m.
Posted by: A9s
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 9:27 a.m.
Posted by: A9s
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 9:29 a.m.
Posted by: Jerry Cornelius
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 8:21 a.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 12:07 p.m.
Posted by: Alden Chase (tyro) (tyro@socal.rr.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 6:21 p.m.
Posted by: Bobby (youtalkfunny@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 10:35 p.m.
Posted by: scalf (ae11@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 8:08 a.m.
Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 3:48 p.m.
Posted by: scalf (ae11@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 4:30 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 10:35 a.m.
Posted by: scalf (ae11@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 12:08 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 1:33 p.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 2:49 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 3:25 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 4:27 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 4:30 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 4:38 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 7:58 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 8:19 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 10:16 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 10:42 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 11:20 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 2:30 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 10:38 a.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 11:38 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 11:38 a.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 12:26 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 11:02 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 11:17 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 11:38 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 12:01 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 9:35 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 10:42 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 10:42 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 10:35 a.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 11:55 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 12:39 p.m.
Posted by: Dan
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 3:36 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 5:00 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 6:09 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 7:12 p.m.
Posted by: John W.
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 11:58 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 12:45 p.m.
Posted by: John Waldrop
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 3:38 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 10:44 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 4:20 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 4:47 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 10:13 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 10:29 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 11:22 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 12:15 a.m.
Posted by: Ted D.
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 10:10 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 10:44 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 10:51 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 10:22 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 9:51 p.m.
Posted by: KNUT
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 1:03 p.m.
Posted by: ratso
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 7:22 p.m.
Posted by: Rounder
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 7:23 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 3:38 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 4:14 p.m.
Posted by: M (mmmmmm@excelonline.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 4:38 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 10:35 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 11:24 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 10:11 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 10:27 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 10:56 p.m.
Posted by: Gaeton Fonzi
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 10:59 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 11:09 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 11:16 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Sunday, 8 July 2001, at 11:29 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 10:19 a.m.
Posted by: John W.
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 12:06 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 12:47 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 12:09 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 12:54 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 12:28 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 12:51 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 3:31 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 5:02 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 6:27 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 7:10 p.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 7:05 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 11:30 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 12:52 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 2:05 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 9:27 a.m.
Posted by: Shaw was CIA
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 1:56 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 2:28 a.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 8:28 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 3:08 a.m."False Witness" is just more Garrison bashing because he chose to reveal the lie that is the US government intelligence community."
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 7:54 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 8:21 a.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 5:18 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 11:46 a.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 10:57 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 12:22 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 12:31 p.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 1:53 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 4:49 p.m.
Posted by: the magic bullet
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 6:30 p.m.
Posted by: the magic bullet
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 6:37 p.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 12:40 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 1:00 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 1:16 p.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 2:59 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 4:24 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 4:26 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 4:56 p.m.
Posted by: Dan
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 6:24 p.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 9:45 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 11:13 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 12:10 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 2:01 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 5:24 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 5:29 p.m.
Posted by: Dan
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 5:38 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 5:50 p.m."I was convinced at one point that there had to be a shot from the grassy knoll. After checking out Dealey Plaza in person I have my doubts because I never realized how small an area it really is and I never realized that the railroad tower was so close to the fence."
"Anyone in the tower could see everything going on behind that fence and I don't see how would-be assassins could reconcile this problem."
"The folks who state that the Warren Commission reached the right conclusion but had the facts of the shooting wrong (e.g. longer time frame for 3 shots to be fired) have found serious problems with the investigation as well."
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 12:13 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 10:32 a.m.
Posted by: Wayne
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 12:39 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 12:51 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 1:17 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 6:48 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 9:05 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 10:14 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 11:45 p.m.
Posted by: Dan
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 5:52 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 1:29 a.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 7:43 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 10:52 a.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 12:25 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 4:40 p.m.
Posted by: George Glasco
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 1:55 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 2:04 p.m.
Posted by: George Glasco
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 2:18 p.m.
Posted by: George Glasco
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 2:23 p.m.
Posted by: George Glasco
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 2:26 p.m.
Posted by: Dr Wogga (de.wogga@swipnet.se)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 3:51 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 12:12 a.m.
Posted by: Dan
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 1:05 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 2:12 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Monday, 9 July 2001, at 11:58 p.m."Can anyone who submits that the kill shot (and the other shots) came from a window to the President's rear kindly provide an alternative explanation to what the Zapruder film shows?"
Posted by: Lee Harvey Ruby (therearelittlepeopleinmysaltshaker@conspiracy.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 8:23 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 8:44 a.m."Anybody here ever played pool? I'm no physics major, but isn't there something about equal and opposite reactions?"
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 8:57 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 2:51 p.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 2:58 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 1:24 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 7:44 a.m.
Posted by: Dan
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 8:27 a.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 10:15 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 6:05 p.m."The test was done much later by someone else--wish I had the memory or the information in front of me. And, the test was done using approx. 1000 feet per second as the guideline, which as you have already pointed out, would be the estimated speed of the bullet after it had passed through human tissue. After this test, the bullet did look very much like the "pristine" bullet."
"A documentary produced by PBS and shown on NOVA also offered some 3D imaging of the flight the bullet would take and showed how Kennedy's head would, in fact, move forward in reaction to the shot."
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 12 July 2001, at 1:10 a.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 12 July 2001, at 1:08 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 12 July 2001, at 11:14 p.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 13 July 2001, at 12:45 p.m.
Posted by: John Cole (jcole5044@aol.com)
Posted on: Friday, 13 July 2001, at 2:56 p.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 13 July 2001, at 4:18 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Friday, 13 July 2001, at 7:24 a.m."No one did explain why Kennedy's brain matter, skull fragment or head itself flew rearward if he had not been shot from the front."
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 5:14 p.m."The second shot [fired by LHO] hit Kennedy 5.5 inches below his shoulder blades, turned 90 degrees left, traveled due north 6 inches, exited, turned right, entered Connally and shattered his rib, turned right and exited, hit his wrist and shattered it, turned about 60 degrees left and entered his leg, and was found in pristine condition on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital. That is the crux of the Warren Report."
Travelling at 1,700-1,800 feet per second, the bullet hit President Kennedy at the back of his neck and a little down to the right. It went through his neck and grazed the tip of the vertebra in the neck, slightly splintering the bone. The bullet's path through the neck caused a momemntary cavity below the throat. The bullet exited Kennedy through his throat.
Posted by: Dan
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 5:40 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 6:10 p.m."The entrance wound..photographed in the autopsy, is 5.5 inches below the so called exit wound in the front."
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 7:01 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 2:39 a.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 12 July 2001, at 1:16 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Tuesday, 10 July 2001, at 6:14 p.m."The entrance wound..photographed in the autopsy, is 5.5 inches below the so called exit wound in the front."
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 12:16 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 2:53 a.m."Posner says that Kennedy pulled his shirt and coat up close to his head, the only problem with this is the evidence of the Zapruder film."
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 7:48 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 8:07 a.m."The holes in the shirt and coat are 5.5 inches below the neckline."
Posted by: Dan
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 8:30 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 10:10 a.m.
Posted by: Dan
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 12:28 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 12:50 p.m.
Posted by: Dan
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 1:52 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 6:58 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Wednesday, 11 July 2001, at 5:21 p.m.
Posted by: The Baron (x012358@icqmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 12 July 2001, at 10:17 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 12 July 2001, at 11:05 p.m.
Posted by: The Baron (x012358@icqmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 14 July 2001, at 12:40 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 14 July 2001, at 1:30 a.m.
Posted by: The Baron (x012358@icqmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 14 July 2001, at 4:15 a.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 14 July 2001, at 1:11 p.m.
Posted by: The Baron (x012358@icqmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 15 July 2001, at 8:05 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 16 July 2001, at 7:02 p.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Friday, 13 July 2001, at 8:47 a.m."Before all else, it is necessary to remember that this assassination reveals a sequence of neural responses initiated in the neck by the shock wave and cavitation induced by the bullet in its traverse of the neck.
Consider a jacketed bullet fired into a tank of water large enough so that the bullet is slowed down and comes to rest on the bottom without having any deformation. During the process the water was agitated and had kinetic and probably potential energy (in water raised by the splash), but the water will eventually stop moving and again have no kinetic energy. All of the bullet kinetic energy has been absorbed by the water, but where is the damage? In this case the bullet causes no damage at all, no matter how high its kinetic energy may be.
G: What factors are the most important in determining a bullet's ability to penetrate with deadly effect, and what is the most important factor in deadly effect?
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 13 July 2001, at 10:58 a.m.
Posted by: Roger
Posted on: Friday, 13 July 2001, at 2:23 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 13 July 2001, at 4:26 p.m.
Posted by: The Baron (x012358@icqmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 14 July 2001, at 12:54 a.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 15 July 2001, at 10:47 p.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 16 July 2001, at 6:03 p.m.
Posted by: brad (bradley_abc@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 17 July 2001, at 1:43 a.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 13 July 2001, at 2:02 p.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 13 July 2001, at 2:57 p.m.
Posted by: The Baron (x012358@icqmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 14 July 2001, at 12:57 a.m.
Posted by: Tom Haley (codesavvy@home.com)
Posted on: Tuesday, 17 July 2001, at 5:28 a.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 17 July 2001, at 11:21 a.m.
Posted by: Cyrus
Posted on: Tuesday, 17 July 2001, at 4:11 p.m."I almost wish I hadn't been too cheap to purchase the The Men Who Killed Kennedy production presented on AE in a series of one hour broadcasts. It described the shooters as Corsican mafia recruited in Marsailles. Then the documentary named them, and described their clandestine entry into Texas across our pourous border with Mexico, their three week wait in a safe house after the killing, their flight to our northern border in private aircraft and their clandestine entry into Canada, from where they flew back to France. It described their payment in bulk heroin, to reinforce the notion that the assasination was a criminal, not governmental, inspiration.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 18 July 2001, at 6:26 a.m.
Posted by: Jake (jake@954access.net)
Posted on: Friday, 13 July 2001, at 2:50 p.m.